Get Teabagged...Again! Recovery and Redemption

The toxic tea is poured from select listener submissions in this episode. Sales salary woes, harassment in the skies (and on the ground!), and a letter that brought tears to the hosts' eyes...we all need to do better for each other.

Tawn Krakowski joins your hosts and shares a story of her very own! Tawn was born in Illinois, yet inexplicably filled with "aloha!" spirit. Tawn has made a home in the beautiful state of Arizona with her family and feline minions.  She earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Aviation Management, has worked as a cargo and passenger airline transport pilot,  authored and published four novels, and is currently concentrating on writing books and writing/producing audiobooks.  Tawn is not one to sit idle!

As Roberta likes to say, we take issues seriously on this podcast, even if we don't take ourselves seriously.   Suicide ideation is addressed in this episode.  We urge all listeners to pay attention to each other, to listen to each other, and to stand with each other.  Take the time to listen to someone telling you they are hurting.  If you are thinking of harming yourself, please contact one of the resources we have shared below- we honestly care about every one of you. 

Thank you, Crystal, for being part of this family. We love you!

Spotify Playlist for this Episode - Songs that match the moods of our listeners!
Bye! I Quit! - Harper Celebrate, author, shares the snarkiest way to leave that job!
The Friendly Skies Are Not So Friendly
Payscale- See What Your Job Is Worth
Call or Text 988- Suicide Prevention Hotline
SAMHSA Hotline- Get help 24/7
Therapy Resources- Online as well!

Instacart - Groceries delivered in as little as 1 hour.
Free delivery on your first order over $35.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

[Stella]: 0:03

The Toxic Tea Room podcast is for entertainment purposes only. We love it when our listeners get help with their entertainment, but that is a bonus. Neither the Toxic Tea Room nor its parent, That One Booth Productions LLC, is responsible for the statements or opinions of its guests, submissions, or content derived from publicly available sources. Yes, those sources. No one is digging through trash bins for content. Gross. Speaking of trash, we are not targeting specific companies, individuals or organizations on this podcast, even if it is deserved. So you should not interpret topics in that way. The Toxic Tea Room podcast and that one booth, Productions LLC are not responsible for any actions taken by individuals. as a result of any content produced on this podcast, your mom's podcast, or used in any social media forum, including your mom's Tinder profile when applicable. Listeners are encouraged to vet any recommendations with certified professional personnel, which we are not. For more info on our disclaimer or a kick-ass blog with fun Easter eggs throughout, visit our website. at www.toxicteatroom.com. I'm Stella.

[Roberta]: 1:36

And I'm Roberta. Welcome to the Toxic Tea Room. fun. Hi everybody. Hi, Stell.

[Stella]: 1:49

Hi, hi,

[Roberta]: 1:49

You okay today,

[Stella]: 1:50

welcome.

[Roberta]: 1:50

Stell? Are you alright?

[Stella]: 1:51

Yes,

[Roberta]: 1:51

You okay?

[Stella]: 1:52

I'm in

[Roberta]: 1:52

Okay.

[Stella]: 1:52

this like funky mood

[Roberta]: 1:55

Hi. Yeah, you know, um, I picked up on that. I picked up you might be in a funky mood. Your mom picked up that you're in a funky mood. Um, you know, I, I'd like to take an opportunity before we dig in today, because today is a... a get teabagged episode, which is a listener favorite. That's where they give us their, whoops, they give us their stories and we get to live with them. We get to talk about them. So I'm really excited about it. But before we get into it, I wanted to address something. So we've heard a couple of people talk about this podcast as a revenge platform. Like we're trying to get revenge. as disgruntled employees. Now, we're gonna address why that's not what we're about here in a second, but I wanted to first of all, focus on the word disgruntled. And as an English major, that bothered me because if you are disgruntled, then what is gruntled? So you know I looked it up, right? I looked up gruntled.

[Stella]: 2:58

Right.

[Roberta]: 3:00

Gruntled appears in the English language circa 1598, thereabouts. And it actually refers to somebody that's kind of upset. So if you're disgruntled, doesn't that mean you're a happy person? I don't know. Perhaps

[Stella]: 3:19

It should,

[Roberta]: 3:20

it does.

[Stella]: 3:20

logically.

[Roberta]: 3:21

It should logically, right? So just weird shit, right? That goes through my head when I see, when I hear things like that. So let me address, let me address that. First of all, no, we're not disgruntled employees and this is not a revenge podcast. Revenge is really Oh my gosh, it's not only is it bad karma and all of the things, right? But in order to exact revenge on anything, you have to expend an incredible amount of energy. You have to put a lot of emotions into revenge. And if somebody hurt you or your family in a way that you could never recover, and that's where your mind went, I don't advocate it, but I could almost understand it, so long as you're not harming another human being, right? stay above board people. But in no way, shape or form was this podcast ever designed to exact revenge on anybody or any company or anything. But what we did start this podcast for was as recovery. We all went through incredibly traumatic experiences and we had some commonality in those experiences. We talked about it amongst ourselves and it made us feel better that we weren't alone. And then we started hearing from others and they had similar stories. And we said, you know what? We're goofy bitches. Why don't we start a podcast where we can talk about these things, but let's also research the behaviors that drive these things. And let's really make this a meaningful podcast that gives information. And because we're goofy bitches, we're going to laugh and we're going to make fun of ourselves because we don't take ourselves seriously. But never ever was this a podcast based upon revenge. I don't believe in revenge. I believe though that whether you wanna call it karma or spiritual retribution or both, you get your own back to you. You're good to people, good will come to you. If you do good deeds, you'll have good deeds done unto you. And if you walk around and you're a blatant asshole, life's gonna pay you back. And some of the people that have done that to me personally, to you Stella, to some of the people that we know, they're already getting it back. We don't have to do anything. We haven't done anything, but be honest and speak our truth and give a voice to those who don't have one. So I just wanted to address that, cause I don't know, I don't like being titled as disgruntled anything, A, cause I'm not even an employee, let alone disgruntled.

[Stella]: 6:01

I just had a thought about that and you know how we have been talking about how there's this sinister, maybe manipulative... symptom, if you would, of how people in power that are toxic try to make you feel like it's your problem. And I know we both experienced that, that we were just, what am I not doing right? You get that imposter syndrome. Part of this labeling our podcast as revenge is part of that. actually listening would see that we're addressing topics that affect various industries and affect various people, not just ourselves. And that's why we have guest galore, we have content galore, there's stuff all over the internet. All these professional coaches are out there for a reason. not to mention lawyers and HR people. And you can just tell by the fact that you can search up toxic and workplaces come up all the time. So, so that's my comment.

[Roberta]: 7:35

I totally agree with you. And I think that those that are spreading that the loudest are probably concerned about what people will infer on their behavior because of what we talk about. And look, none of us can be responsible for what people infer, but you know what I do know? I've never seen people infer anything good about someone who's not acting good. I've never seen people make their own opinion based on what... podcast is talking about when they can see it with their own eyes. And candidly, if you're a good person and you're not actively trying to hurt other people, nobody's gonna come to that conclusion about you no matter what we say or do, no matter what anybody says or does. Just go be good people. Don't treat your people like shit. Instant formula. There you go. Go and be prosperous. Anyway, so I,

[Stella]: 8:27

agree.

[Roberta]: 8:28

I I love our listeners and our listeners continue to amaze us and humble us and inspire us. This episode is no different. That's right. As I mentioned earlier, it's listener submission special, get teabagged with a, well, an incredible guest. I have to be honest because I have lived in awe of this woman since I was 14 years old, but a wee lass of 14, which is when I first made her acquaintance and then she became one of my besties. It's my honor to introduce Tawn Krakowski. Born and raised in Illinois, we lived in the same area, we went to the same high school. Like, okay, so she has some goods on me that no, no fair anybody trying to get goods because she'll tell me who's asking. So don't even bother, because we're that tight. Yet inexplicably, can't talk today, filled with aloha spirit and the blood of her enemies. Ton has made a home in the beautiful state of Arizona with her family and feline minions. She earned a bachelor's of science in aviation management and she's worked as both a cargo and charter airline pilot. Yes, I said it pilot because this biatch can't stop at the incredible achievement of being a flippin' pilot, which by the way, folks, is hard. You can't just go to JJC, which is Joliet Junior College, for those of you in the Chicago area, or any junior college and go for two years and become a flipping pilot. Okay, it is hard to be a pilot. If you ever looked at the instrument dash of an airplane as you walk past it to leave or to board, it's hard. Okay, it's flipping hard. And Tom is a freaking pilot. Okay, so on top of being a damn pilot, No, she's not okay with that. That's not enough for her because she has to go ahead and then be an author because she's published four freaking books. She's a serial entrepreneur currently concentrating on writing an audio book, narration production, and I believe she has her own damn podcast coming up, if not already out. Welcome, Ton, to the show.

[Stella]: 10:27

Welcome.

[Tawn]: 10:30

Holy moly, is that an introduction? I think I'm done for the day. That was amazing. I'm so

[Roberta]: 10:37

Nope.

[Tawn]: 10:38

happy to be

[Stella]: 10:38

Yeah,

[Tawn]: 10:39

here

[Stella]: 10:39

Thomas.

[Tawn]: 10:39

and I'm excited to check out with you guys. And you know, there is, there may be a little bit of dirt on Roberta that I have, but I would be implicating myself as well.

[Roberta]: 10:49

Mm.

[Tawn]: 10:49

So I probably might want to keep most of that to myself, just saying.

[Stella]: 10:57

I'm going

[Roberta]: 10:57

That's

[Stella]: 10:57

to go

[Roberta]: 10:57

fair

[Stella]: 10:57

to bed.

[Roberta]: 10:58

because if you weren't gonna say that, I would call you out on that. There were no independent shenanigans

[Tawn]: 11:03

Hi.

[Roberta]: 11:04

as far as Ton and I were involved.

[Tawn]: 11:06

No, no, no.

[Roberta]: 11:07

There was always Ton

[Tawn]: 11:08

I-I-I

[Roberta]: 11:08

and Roberta,

[Tawn]: 11:09

do-

[Roberta]: 11:10

always.

[Tawn]: 11:14

We did some fun,

[Roberta]: 11:15

Like, easy now.

[Tawn]: 11:17

raised quite a bit of grain while we were

[Roberta]: 11:19

It was,

[Tawn]: 11:19

out there. That was the best.

[Roberta]: 11:22

you know, and, and guys, it was relatively innocent. I mean, looking back, like from today's eyes, looking back, it's like, we, those were all innocent shenanigans. Nobody got hurt. There was lots of laughter. It was at most minor vandalism. It wasn't anything major. And we didn't like cause, we weren't breaking windows and robbing anybody. Nobody got. hurt with our shenanigans, at least not physically. But nobody got hurt, but they were just

[Tawn]: 11:56

But they were

[Roberta]: 11:56

fun

[Tawn]: 11:56

all

[Roberta]: 11:57

things. Tawn

[Tawn]: 11:57

hilarious.

[Roberta]: 11:58

and I. They were all hysterical. Like, there were always, like if we

[Tawn]: 12:04

Hehehe

[Roberta]: 12:04

were together, when you know, if you heard the saying, here comes trouble, nah, everyone's like, ah, oh shit, what are they doing? What are they doing now? You know, it's bad when your parents know. So like, whenever, like if we were going somewhere and my dad was driving, if we were talking, he was always like, you two be quiet. You know he's up to no good, you two be quiet. We're like, we're just talking, damn. And... Ton's mom, love her, but she was always like, oh, hi guys, so what are you doing? What you guys got planned? Nothing, hmm. Hmm, okay, hmm. Like everyone knew, like they knew we were always up to no good, but it was all innocent. It was all good fun, Ton. I laugh about those days all the damn time.

[Tawn]: 12:52

apps.

[Roberta]: 12:54

So with that,

[Stella]: 12:56

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 12:56

Stella, I'm

[Stella]: 12:58

Yes.

[Roberta]: 12:58

gonna turn it over to you. Why don't you kick us off today?

[Stella]: 13:01

Well, I was just going to say I was a goody two shoes growing up. So I'm living out my rebel years now. So

[Roberta]: 13:09

Yay.

[Stella]: 13:10

just saying, okay. So I wanted to

[Tawn]: 13:13

Excellent.

[Stella]: 13:13

start

[Tawn]: 13:14

That's

[Stella]: 13:14

by

[Tawn]: 13:14

what

[Stella]: 13:15

dipping

[Tawn]: 13:15

I like to hear.

[Stella]: 13:15

the tea bag. Yeah, man. Yeah. Shake and bake. Okay. Um, I want to start by dipping the tea bag into the tea spilled by Bailey. Bailey writes that they. are currently at a sales job with stupid high turnover, a manager who isn't present, and they are underpaid. You're forced out if you don't drink the Kool-Aid, but you're better off being forced out because instead of running through a meat grinder of a sales process to make 40K base and 15K in commission, you could just find a sales gig that'll pay you 60K. Those are... the comments on the letter.

[Roberta]: 14:05

Okay,

[Stella]: 14:06

What do you think, guys?

[Roberta]: 14:07

allow me, allow me. As some of you know, I have a smidgen of sales experience,

[Stella]: 14:16

Just a little bit.

[Roberta]: 14:17

just a smidge. And I would tell you just, just a teeny bit of success. I would tell you that, um, if you're working any sales job and to go through a grind to make 60 K right now in today's environment, really, you should be looking. If you are successful, you can make a lot more than that. Even as a base, you could make incredible commissions. And if that was just used as like an example, that's fine. I think the thing that is remarkable here to me are two phrases that you said, Stella. He said, stupid high turnover, which

[Stella]: 14:58

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 14:58

I'm going to infer as turnover, employee turnover that is so high, it's flipping stupid. I'm gonna infer that which in sales can happen. Sales is a grind and it's not easy and you can get demoralized. You've got to have a healthy ego going in just to get up every day because you're told no so many times that until you realize that a no simply means, I just need more information and you wrap your head around that, it is a grind, it's hard. So there is always turnover, but stupid high turnover could be indicative of something else entirely. And the fact that, what did Bailey say? A manager who isn't present. That's a problem. Because when

[Stella]: 15:42

Stay

[Roberta]: 15:42

you're in

[Stella]: 15:42

calm.

[Roberta]: 15:43

sales, I mean, they gone. They

[Stella]: 15:47

Thank

[Roberta]: 15:47

out.

[Stella]: 15:47

bye bye.

[Roberta]: 15:48

They bye bye. They, they, they know here.

[Stella]: 15:52

I'm

[Roberta]: 15:52

Um,

[Stella]: 15:52

sorry.

[Roberta]: 15:53

as my mother would say, she know here. Um, I think that is a contributor to the stupid high turnover. Look, salespeople are independent contributors. You have to be a self starter. You have to have, you can't be successful in sales if somebody has to tell you to please get up, come to work, make calls, go sell things. That's the job. You need to be self-motivated. But you do need your manager there to help with say escalations like, hey, this one, this customer is ready to go, but they want to negotiate price and they've gone, you know, they want more than what I'm empowered to do. So can you step in or hey, I've got a weird situation. I've never seen this before. Can we talk about it? A manager's role is in sales is to help their salespeople get the job done, give them advice, coach them, go with them on a call if necessary to help close, guide them, help them become the best that they can be because that only benefits you. If you're doing that kind of grind to make $15,000 of commission, you did right. You did right, Bailey, I agree with you. Get the hell out, get a sales gig that can pay you 60K. And I would tell you right now, that's a base. Ton, what are your thoughts?

[Tawn]: 17:07

One of the things that I wanted to kind of say is, is if you kind of shift gears and look at it, let's say from a retail sales perspective, and that manager has incredibly high turnover, as a former business owner, that's, that's a huge problem if you have that much turnover, because it's costing the business money, because you're, you, you have to retrain these new people. And it costs way more money to train new people than it does to keep competent people. So that manager at that point is the problem and not the sales people.

[Roberta]: 17:51

I agree.

[Stella]: 17:53

Yeah. I, and I want to just preface that, um, in a future episode, we're going to dive into how sales strategy can be toxic. Um, because you know, the, the rest of the company is depending on sales, right? To bring in the customer base. Um, But if the sales team doesn't have good communication as to what the company does or what it's selling or what's the new product line, that all breaks down. So a future episode will definitely touch on how sales is kind of the gateway into some really toxic situations. But good on Bailey for. recognizing that the grind isn't worth it. And yeah, tons of churn. I have to agree with ton. It's an indicator that someone isn't doing a good enough job. And that person's probably most likely in management. So.

[Roberta]: 19:16

Good for you, Bailey.

[Stella]: 19:18

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Roberta]: 19:22

Good for you, Bailey. All right, our next letter is from Crystal, and I am going to do my best to get through this. For those of you that follow me on LinkedIn, I hinted toward Crystal's story and how it moved me, because it did. It literally moved me to tears when I first read it. And when I shared it with Stella, I was emotional again, and Stella actually said, oh, are you getting emotional? because it's rare for me. And so she was even surprised I got emotional. I'm gonna do my best to keep it together. I'm just gonna get into it. All right, so Crystal is from Texas and she says, I recently discovered your amazing podcast. I'm currently healing from a toxic work environment that caused depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts. I had to resign from my position and was even thinking of quitting my career in the medical field. I took a leave of absence and during that time, I was encouraged by my LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor, to begin listening to a podcast on depression or on toxic workplaces. Before listening to your podcast, I felt alone and defeated. I felt I had lost my self-worth and confidence and was suffering in so much pain. Your podcast has helped me in my process to heal by knowing I'm not alone in my situation. It has helped me feel empowered and now I'm ready to regain my confidence back. I remained in the medical field and I have taken a new position with a different company. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your podcast. And before we get into her story, Crystal, you're welcome, first of all. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We love you so much for listening and for writing in and sharing your story with us, which I'm about to get into. I'm so glad you found us. I'm so glad that we made you feel like you had community. That's kind of what this is about, is about your community. Thank you so much. All right, so we're gonna get into Crystal's situation. Quickly, just a little bit about my toxic situation. I work at a children's hospital as a nurse practitioner and was working with a seasoned or older surgeon who would make demeaning comments about me and my position over the course of several years. Once at a department meeting with other physicians and professionals, he stood up and said, quote,"'The thought of Crystal seeing patients"'makes my skin crawl,' end quote. This surgeon caused me to experience depression, anxiety, and had suicidal thoughts because of his behavior toward me and especially after that meeting I discussed above. I saw a medical professional and was prescribed medications for depression and anxiety. I reported this surgeon to my HR and was encouraged to discuss the matter further with my supervisor or the VP. At that time, I was naive enough to think my supervisor would be supportive and cared about me as an employee of seven years. However, when I discussed my situation with the supervisor and how I was being treated by this surgeon causing depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, she laughed and joked and said, "'Can you imagine me feeling like that"'every time someone doesn't like me?' Another individual who was also in attendance during our meeting began joking how he had just made IT mad at him. They also made comments like, "'Do you like your job?' And making me feel like my job was being threatened. Needless to say, I left that meeting feeling demeaned, insignificant, and worthless. I went home and contemplated suicide. I resigned from that position since, and your podcast is helping me to heal through this trauma. Thank you again for your podcast. I'm going to say something right now. And it's going to come off a little rough. So for those of you with delicate ears, you may want to advance ahead because I'm just going to say what I think needs to be said right now for the supervisor. in Crystal's life, for the HR representative in Crystal's life, for all the people she reached out to who brushed her off or demeaned her further or made her feel like her job was threatened because she did not want to be demeaned and ridiculed in meetings the way that the surgeon's done. For all of you, fuck you guys. You do not let someone come to you who is suffering, who is calling for help. What would it have taken to just say, let's go have a cup of coffee? What would it have taken for you to just listen to her to not demean her but to just hear her out. You know how much she would have cared. But can I just remind everybody this is at a children's hospital. Children's hospitals are for some of the sickest kids. Kids that that's what their parents only hope is can we children with cancer children with you know autoimmune disorders that that's where she worked as a nurse as a nurse who is caring for the sick. and to have a surgeon say, it makes my skin crawl to have this nurse who clearly cares because you don't put up with this bullshit for seven years if you don't care. Clearly cared about her job, wanting to get help about these behaviors that were impacting her. Cared enough to God, thank God she didn't, but cared enough that she thought maybe I just need to end it all. It breaks my heart to think of somebody getting to that level and she reached out to others. I'm so happy she found community in this podcast. I really am. I'm glad of all of the things out there that she could have looked at, that her therapist recommended, she looked into depression and toxic workplaces, she found ours. And I'm so glad that she did and that we resonate with her and Crystal. I will keep this podcast up as long as we ever need to because I don't know how many crystals we have out there that maybe we're helping. we will commit to always being here to create that community but god damn it should not have been us she reached out to other people it should not have been us it should not have been us that stood up to help her it shouldn't have been us that she found community and solace with and encouragement with because we're just on a podcast we're not in front of her there were people in her life that could have and should have stood up for her when she came to them for help and you didn't and If you can hear me, which I'm sure you can, because you listen. And so God, thank you so much for listening. I'm proud of you for being brave, enough to stand up for yourself for getting out of there. I am proud of you for not abandoning your profession because the medical field is hard enough. And I know there's heartbreak in being a nurse every day for things you can't control, especially when you're trying to work with patients, especially young patients like this. I'm confident there are times that despite everything you did, a patient didn't get better. And that's hard enough to deal with on a daily basis, but to have somebody demean you the way you were demeaned, there's no excuse for it, there's no reason for it, and I'm glad you believed enough in yourself to not only leave that place, but to stay here with us. Because here's the thing, folks, you never know when someone's last straw is there. And this is a woman who is helping the sick. We don't know how many lives she's impacted just by being there. And thank God she's still there. Thank God she's still in the field. Thank God she is still continuing to, you know, be that partitioner and do all of the things that she's doing to help other people. Thank God that's still continuing. As long as you wanna do this, Crystal, we'll be by your side, but you know what, seriously? And again, folks, forgive me. Fuck those guys who didn't respond to her when she needed help. Be better, people. Just be better. I did that without crying, Stella. It was hard. I'm gonna tell you, it was

[Stella]: 26:55

You

[Roberta]: 26:55

a couple

[Stella]: 26:55

did

[Roberta]: 26:55

of times.

[Stella]: 26:56

a

[Roberta]: 26:57

Thank you, thank you.

[Stella]: 26:59

great job.

[Roberta]: 26:59

I've cried over this letter a few times. I have, I've cried over this letter a few times.

[Stella]: 27:04

Your justified anger took over. Um, I have to second everything. Rupert has said, Crystal, um, I'm proud of you for sharing because, um, like Rupert had alluded to, we don't know how many of other crystals are out there. And, you know, I'll take a quick sidebar to say one of the things I read this week was that, um, isolation is, is the main driver of potentially toxic, a toxic environment. And when a surgeon who should be respected for their difficult job, in front of a lot of people demean somebody. And we don't know the full story from other people's perspective, but the demeaning did not have to happen. That's just humanity right there, the basic common decency. But when he openly demeaned people, he isolated her. You know, other people are looking at like, oh, wow, she must have problems. And she tends to, I mean, she did her best. She, she tried to go to her supervisor, to HR to not be isolated and they. Just reinforce the isolation. Um, and so yeah, shame on that place. Shame on those people. Um, and you know, if you're. shunning people that are coming to you for help. I mean, please do the right thing. You have time. If you don't have time for people, I don't have time for you. I'm sorry.

[Roberta]: 29:08

Thank you.

[Stella]: 29:08

I just get angry. Ha ha ha.

[Roberta]: 29:09

I mean, I'm telling you that the part that makes me angry is when she went to her supervisor and she said what was the impacts it had on her. Like the way this surgeon is treating me. And I've heard from many in the medical industry, the surgeons, doctors, they're the kings. They're the equivalent of CEOs for their particular departments. What they say goes, it's their knowledge, it's their experience. And yes, they have a job. They could literally. life or death could be in their hands. So we respect that this is not a slam on surgeons. But you're still supposed, I mean, I don't understand. How are you taking the Hippocratic oath and then becoming a hypocrite yourself and how you treat people? So you are to do no harm except to those who work for you? That doesn't make sense to me. Check yourself, again, be better people. But when she went to her supervisor and was open and honest and vulnerable with... the supervisor about how she was feeling, how this was impacting her and depressing her, even to the point where she's saying, I'm even having suicidal thoughts, to have that supervisor who you are supposed to trust, that is your leader, right? Turn around and say, can you imagine me feeling like that every time someone doesn't like me? No, bitch, because we're not talking about you right now. We're talking about me. I am sharing how this is making me feel. I'm not concerned how you handle it. I'm sharing this with you. Your particular view on how you feel and whether or not anything impacts you. It's not about liking. I'm being demeaned in meetings. I am having my professionalism questioned. I am a nurse. And by the way, you can't just sign up. You can't just scratch off a tick and say, oh look, I won being a nurse. You have to study to be a nurse. All of this is about how a professional has been treated. All of this is about how when someone asked for help from their chain of command, there was no one there. They blew Crystal off because it was a surgeon that was treating her or maybe because they had been desensitized to all of this treatment internally and said, well, I mean, it is what it is. It's just how they are. No, that's not how it needs to be. Nothing is. As a leader, I could not imagine somebody in my organization coming to me, sitting down with me, and unloading how somebody else made them feel, and I just say, well, can you only imagine what I get? Shit, it's 10 times harder for me. That's not a response.

[Stella]: 31:45

No.

[Roberta]: 31:46

By the way, you're in a leadership position, it's always gonna be harder on you. Your job is to shield your people from that, not tell them that what they're experiencing is normal. This is not normal. In any way was this normal? And guys, listen, the one thing I'll close because I'm going to, I'm getting angry again, just thinking about some of this stuff and I don't want to be angry. Not trying to be angry today, but if you find yourself and you're having these thoughts, even if you feel no one's listening to you, there are people that do care and in the show notes and on our blog, I will post some numbers that you can call some help that is available. You do matter. I don't care how other people are making you feel. If this reaches anybody at the right time, you matter. Don't, if nothing else, get that little part of you that, you know, fuck them, I'm not gonna give them a win. Don't give them this win. Don't let them take you from everybody. Don't let it happen. You matter, there are people that care. There are resources available. I will put some in the show notes and on the blog. Crystal, it took a lot of courage to leave that place. It took a lot of courage to be this open and honest with us. And... I thank you so, so much for sharing that with us. You did the right thing by leaving. And I don't know what hospital that is, but damn, I would really hope that the frontline that is taking care of the sick children in that hospital are not being treated the way Crystal was treated, because what a shit place if that's the case. I want the people taking care of my child to be treated as if they're kings and queens so that they continue to wanna give the best care to my child. Idiots.

[Stella]: 33:25

I'm out.

[Roberta]: 33:25

Okay, I'm getting mad, Stella. You need to take it away because I'm just getting pissed. Just do it. Just take it. I'm getting mad.

[Stella]: 33:31

Okay. Well, while Roberta takes a few minutes to hide all her anger and emotions that no one thinks she has, by the way, it's a good time to tell you about Instacart. The effectiveness of multitasking is under debate, but no one can argue the value of an assistant to help get things done. Getting yard work done for a weekend barbecue. No problem. Instacart can take care of your shopping list while you take care of the lawn. Click to cart, baby. Visit our blog for offers on Instacart. Such a lifesaver for working moms, too. Thank

[Roberta]: 34:13

Ah,

[Stella]: 34:13

you.

[Roberta]: 34:15

thank you, Stella. Ton, I believe you have a letter as well.

[Tawn]: 34:22

Well, yes and no. So I do have a letter. However, I've decided that I don't want to read it because it's from my friend Lee, who is a, you know, Cishet white dude. And I'd rather tell you about my personal experience that you might find a little bit more interesting. So, um, I worked for a charter company that when I interviewed for the job as a Learjet captain, I had probably 6,000 hours of flight time, quite a bit of time in a Learjet as well from flying cargo. generally their clients don't like to have to see a female up in the cockpit. But they might, you know, they might wave that because of me or something like that. I don't recall entirely what it was. But it was one of those things where I like, well, this is really weird to bring up in the interview. And then later on, I was, I got a type rating for a hawker. So I was captain on two different airplanes. During a flight home, I was flying with my boss. It was an empty flight, so there wasn't, there weren't any passengers or anything like that. Nobody was scared except me and probably him. But I was flying left seat, so I was captain on that flight, and he was flying right seat. At one point in time, air traffic control had missed a descent that they were supposed to give us. So we would have to make a steeper than normal descent in order to make the crossing restriction that they had, you know, that they had forgotten to request. As somebody who has flown cargo in the past, that was something that was not a problem for me. And I keyed up the mic and I let ATC know that it wouldn't be a problem and we'd make the crossing restriction. So, you know, I did what I do and I made crossing restriction and it was beautiful. And my boss flipped out on me in the cockpit, screamed at me. for the next 15 minutes until we landed about how I was flying like a hillbilly and how dangerous that was, and you can't fly a jet like that. And basically just harangued me until we landed. I was distraught. Here I was, a professional, in charge of that flight. As captain, I am pilot in command. whether or not he's my boss.

[Roberta]: 37:39

That's

[Tawn]: 37:39

And

[Roberta]: 37:39

right.

[Tawn]: 37:39

here he is screaming at me for complying with ATC instructions. So, you know, I went home and I was unhappy and the next day I came back and I had, I had proof that not only had I done nothing, you know, that wasn't safe, beyond the controls of the aircraft, or anything that was wrong in any way. And I took that to his boss. And his boss agreed with me that he should not have yelled at me, but I was still written up for insubordination for that incident. So this was also the job that I was laid off when I was three months pregnant after they found out that I was pregnant too. So, but I was pretty happy to get out of that job

[Roberta]: 38:42

Hmm.

[Tawn]: 38:42

because it was not the best place to work.

[Roberta]: 38:47

So

[Stella]: 38:48

Thanks.

[Roberta]: 38:48

I have a question. I have a question. Did

[Tawn]: 38:52

Yes,

[Roberta]: 38:52

when,

[Tawn]: 38:52

ma'am.

[Roberta]: 38:53

and I don't mean to make light of your situation, but you know how we are here and you know how I am. Is this what your boss

[Tawn]: 39:00

OOF

[Roberta]: 39:00

sounded like when he was berating you?

[Tawn]: 39:11

Yeah, that's

[Stella]: 39:11

Hahaha!

[Tawn]: 39:11

pretty accurate.

[Roberta]: 39:13

Was that close? Excellent.

[Tawn]: 39:16

Yep, absolutely.

[Roberta]: 39:20

Excellent.

[Stella]: 39:23

So how did you, how do you think you recovered from that level harassment? I guess it's kind of a gen X type of thing to kind of just take it and just bury the feelings or maybe you still have the feelings, but you don't express them at work, especially after you went to his boss and still got written up. How

[Tawn]: 39:51

Well...

[Stella]: 39:51

do you recover from that?

[Tawn]: 39:56

It's actually, it's funny that you ask that because you talked earlier about the isolation. Being a female pilot is really, really isolating because none of the men have the perspective that you do. There was another female pilot that I worked with that she had been asked to work as a flight attendant. on an aircraft that she didn't, you know, she never flew, which was something that no, they would never ask a man to do that, you know. I had Lee's story was when during an airline briefing on harassment, sexual harassment, the instructor had after given the lecture on how you shouldn't do that. had gone to the back of the class and made a comment to, you know, one of the women standing there who happened to have a whistle and asked if she blew that when she wanted to get raped. And this was in like an airline class. So I don't think that I really had an opportunity to express any of this until now, really, The men just really don't understand that perspective of basically being so completely isolated by not only the novelty of what you do, but everybody's always watching you too to make sure, you know, to see how you measure up or because they have preconceived ideas of, you know, how a woman would fly in their head. So yeah, I think Gen X really did bury their feelings on this.

[Stella]: 42:05

Yeah, it's interesting to me when this is not the same industry, but the ladies who are racing cars, I always look at them and just wonder how much indirect harassment they must get. But even if they don't, even if, you know, it's a brave new world and they're not getting any harassment, I do know. that as fans, people pay attention. Like, are they ever gonna actually win anything? You know, like I've heard commentary like that. So I completely relate to your isolation comment in something like that. And, you know, it just sucks to call it out. It just, it sucks. And, Leaders should be looking out for that. They should be looking out for, you know, are their managers fair? Does everyone get a voice? You know, one of the things that might be a little touchy and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole is that open door policy. When leaders have that open door policy, I think that was one way to combat not having someone completely isolate a person that anyone could go in. Of course, if you're doing the open door policy and you're a problem, well, then that doesn't really help the person who needs the help. But that's...

[Roberta]: 43:59

I mean, I will agree with you. I always had an open door policy. I think the challenge is, if there's no trust in an organization, an open door policy doesn't help. Because

[Stella]: 44:13

Yes.

[Roberta]: 44:13

if I can't trust you, I'm not gonna tell you anything. I'm not gonna tell you what bothers me. And listen, back to Crystal real quick, she went to every door that she should have. And they didn't. want to hear her, they didn't want to help her. In Ton's scenario, there weren't a whole lot of doors there. They were basically like, you're lucky to even be in the room Ton, with your flying self, trying to, you know, be part of this organization. You're lucky to even be here. You have mammaries

[Stella]: 44:47

Yes.

[Roberta]: 44:48

that you should know what that's like. Can you fly a plane with mammaries? It's like, you know, it's those sorts of things that and again, we have lots of, you know, male listeners.

[Tawn]: 44:56

They do get in the way sometimes.

[Roberta]: 45:01

Yeah, I know. Trust

[Tawn]: 45:02

They

[Roberta]: 45:02

me.

[Tawn]: 45:02

do

[Roberta]: 45:02

I know

[Tawn]: 45:02

get in

[Roberta]: 45:03

that.

[Tawn]: 45:03

the way sometimes.

[Roberta]: 45:03

Trust me. Okay, trust me. They do get in the way. But you can still get around them as you have proven competently as a competent pilot for several years. But, you know, we have a lot of male listeners. This is not a male bashing session. This is an idiot bashing session. Let's just be honest. If you are going to exclude half of the population simply because they are who they are. You're an idiot. If you are going to treat people like shit and still expect to have a productive team and a productive work environment, you're an idiot. And I don't mean an idiot like you have a low IQ. I mean an idiot that I don't care what your IQ is. There is something called an EQ for emotional intelligence. You have none. If you don't understand that emotions come with being a human being. And while we don't have to all say, okay, listen, we're not here to stop production so we can have a cry fest. Nobody is saying it needs to be that extreme. But when somebody comes to you for help, you have to acknowledge that. You have to see what's going on. You at least, HR, you had an obligation to at least investigate it. And in Ton's case, and look, yeah, Gen X is a different generation. We were told, we raised ourselves first of all, so who was gonna tell us how to do this stuff? And second of all, we were kind of fighting for a place at the table as women, it's the truth. I, again, I'm not trying to make, you know, anyone uncomfortable by saying that, but it's our truth, we lived it. We had to fight it for our place at the table. And now that it's been more readily accepted, which makes me so happy and you know, Gen Z is my spirit animal, cause they're just like, yeah, no, we don't get it. So if you hire me, you hire me. So that's just, this is what we're working on now. It makes me feel good that we're at that point finally. but it doesn't erase what we've been through to get to this point, right, Ton?

[Tawn]: 46:54

And if you remember Roberta, we did fight for a place at the table for our female drill team back in high school. So we've been

[Roberta]: 47:04

Yes.

[Tawn]: 47:04

fighting for a place at the

[Roberta]: 47:06

Yeah,

[Tawn]: 47:06

table

[Roberta]: 47:06

we did.

[Tawn]: 47:07

forever.

[Roberta]: 47:10

Mm-hmm. So to fill in our listeners, Ton and I were both Air Force, uh, junior reserve officer training court in high school. And we were both on drill team and we had a great drill team. So it was both genders in the drill team. We toured, you know, we, we won awards. I mean, we were fairly bad-ass and we also had a rifle drill team. So we had unarmed and armed and I was on both. I think Ton, you were also on both. You did armed and unarmed too, right? You were on rifle drill. I remember.

[Tawn]: 47:42

I think so, yeah.

[Roberta]: 47:42

Um,

[Tawn]: 47:43

Yep.

[Roberta]: 47:43

and yeah. And then there were enough of us that we said, Hey, we can compete in a whole nother category. We would like to start an all female drill team. And we didn't do it because we didn't want boys. We're like, we can compete in a whole nother category because we have enough of us to go ahead and compete again. It wasn't extra work on anybody except us. We had to create a whole new routine. We had extra practice, because we had practice for both the mixed unarmed drill, which was the biggest drill team. Then we had rifle drill, which was a whole nother set of practice. And then we said, we'll even go one other step and have yet another drill team with all girls so we can compete in yet another category. It ups our visibility and it gives us more opportunities to win. And despite the fact that we would be the ones that had to bear the brunt of the work, they were still like, well, we don't know. The frick don't you know? Like we're all part of, it's still drill team. You should be cheering us on. You should be saying, hey, that sounds great. Let's do that. And thank you guys for wanting to help us out. We were the ones taking on all the work. We even did all the routines. We didn't... We were champions. We didn't need anyone to teach us how to do a routine that would win. We knew how to win. We just wanted to win more. And it was flipping hard. Like we had to fight to actually be able to add value to even our core that we were all part of. And it was not easy. We got it done though, right, Ton? Frickin' A, we did. We got it done. Wasn't easy, but we did. We had to fight

[Tawn]: 49:20

Hell

[Roberta]: 49:20

hard

[Tawn]: 49:20

yeah.

[Roberta]: 49:20

for that shit though. That was ridiculous. It

[Tawn]: 49:25

That's

[Roberta]: 49:25

was

[Tawn]: 49:25

kind

[Roberta]: 49:25

much,

[Tawn]: 49:25

of a Gen

[Roberta]: 49:25

much harder

[Tawn]: 49:26

X thing

[Roberta]: 49:26

than it

[Tawn]: 49:26

too.

[Roberta]: 49:26

needed to be.

[Tawn]: 49:27

We get it done. Hahaha.

[Roberta]: 49:29

Mm-hmm. We did, we got it done. We're like, no, because we, we couldn't accept the logic. We're like, oh, we don't know that makes sense. Why the frick doesn't it make sense? It doesn't cost you anything extra. Why doesn't it make sense? We're the ones doing all the work. Why doesn't it make sense? And ultimately, I don't know, because I can't get into their heads. I'm not going to presume that they just didn't want the girls to win one. I'm not going to presume that. But I'm going to say we still won one though. So what have we were so bad.

[Tawn]: 50:02

More than one if I recall.

[Stella]: 50:04

So.

[Tawn]: 50:04

We were pretty badass. And we still

[Roberta]: 50:06

Yeah,

[Tawn]: 50:06

are pretty

[Roberta]: 50:06

I was

[Tawn]: 50:06

badass,

[Roberta]: 50:07

just,

[Tawn]: 50:07

just saying.

[Roberta]: 50:08

I wasn't gonna be bragging on it. We are, of course we're bad ass. I wasn't gonna be bragging on us, Tom, but yeah, we were bad

[Tawn]: 50:13

I'll

[Roberta]: 50:13

ass,

[Tawn]: 50:13

go

[Roberta]: 50:13

what

[Tawn]: 50:13

there,

[Roberta]: 50:13

the hell?

[Tawn]: 50:13

I'll brag all day long. You were talking about revenge earlier,

[Stella]: 50:19

Hehehe

[Tawn]: 50:19

I'm all

[Roberta]: 50:19

I still-

[Tawn]: 50:19

about the revenge too, so you know, just a Scorpio in me.

[Roberta]: 50:26

It's like, I've got room for revenge all day, twice on Sunday. Ha ha!

[Tawn]: 50:30

All day long. I got a cooler set up.

[Roberta]: 50:39

I still got a mean ass salute. In the meantime,

[Stella]: 50:48

So

[Roberta]: 50:48

Stella's

[Stella]: 50:48

let's,

[Roberta]: 50:48

in there going, yeah,

[Stella]: 50:49

yeah, let's,

[Roberta]: 50:49

that's cute, girl.

[Stella]: 50:50

yeah,

[Roberta]: 50:50

So

[Stella]: 50:50

let's.

[Roberta]: 50:51

I was one of only 100 girls on a boat with like 5,000 dudes. That sounds cute, guys. Yeah, you guys had it really tough,

[Stella]: 50:57

I'm

[Roberta]: 50:57

okay.

[Stella]: 50:57

sorry.

[Roberta]: 50:57

Ha ha ha!

[Stella]: 51:03

Right, right.

[Roberta]: 51:06

Oh man. Oh man. Taun,

[Stella]: 51:10

So

[Roberta]: 51:10

do you

[Stella]: 51:10

Roberta,

[Roberta]: 51:10

have any...

[Stella]: 51:10

you want to?

[Roberta]: 51:11

Yeah.

[Stella]: 51:12

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 51:12

Oh, sure.

[Stella]: 51:12

Oh.

[Roberta]: 51:12

I was

[Stella]: 51:13

Well,

[Roberta]: 51:13

going to

[Stella]: 51:13

yeah.

[Roberta]: 51:13

say Taun, do you have... That's all right. We got all confused with like, you know, who has the

[Stella]: 51:17

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 51:17

most, you know, trauma in some pseudo military structure. We're going to give Stella that award. You win that one. That's on you. Taun, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners?

[Tawn]: 51:33

I think final thoughts for me would be absolutely, you know, in response to Crystal's letter, especially, talk about your experiences, because all of this, this harassment and, and just these negative emotions and comments, things, they thrive in silence. And you have to talk to somebody, tell you. Tell your supervisor, tell your friends, tell everybody, tell everybody what's going on. Because if somebody wanted to be talked about kindly, then they should have behaved better is all I really wanna say. You need to look out for you and you need to talk to people and you need to own your story, absolutely.

[Roberta]: 52:36

And that's incredible because I couldn't have said it any better. For me, the theme of all of these submissions is pretty simple. Know your worth. Get paid what you're deserved or what you deserve. Don't compromise your integrity for anyone. And most importantly, if you're driven to harm yourself, please, please get help. We will add a suicide prevention line to the show notes. Again, if you're if you're if someone's reaching out to you. Even if they're not saying that they have suicidal ideation, but they're saying, I'm really, this place is getting to me. I'm anxious, I'm depressed. Put your ego aside, don't ever respond with, how do you think I feel? It's not about you. Be empathetic, make it about that person, that person needs someone in that moment and be that person for them. We all have the ability to impact each other in a positive way or in a negative way. For those of you familiar with the story, Samson killed. A thousand men with the jaw of an ass. And we do that every day when we're talking and not paying attention to what we're doing. So just saying. You're loved, you're needed. All of you matter.

[Stella]: 53:47

Yep. And I think we're going to leave it there. But keep sending in those stories to the tea bag at toxictearoom.com. We're happy when

[Roberta]: 53:57

And

[Stella]: 53:57

we get them.

[Roberta]: 53:58

we're so happy. We love getting them.

[Stella]: 54:00

Yep.

[Roberta]: 54:01

And keep sending in those legal questions for our amazing corporate attorney from the Layoffs and Lies episode, Mary Marbach, who will be answering all of them for you in an upcoming episode.

[Stella]: 54:13

Yay. Please subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, our website, whatever.

[Roberta]: 54:25

Just don't follow us on the street. That's creepy. Like don't follow

[Stella]: 54:28

Yeah,

[Roberta]: 54:28

us in person.

[Stella]: 54:29

yeah, that's

[Roberta]: 54:29

That's

[Stella]: 54:29

not

[Roberta]: 54:30

kind

[Stella]: 54:30

cool.

[Roberta]: 54:30

of creepy. That's shady. Don't do that. We will provide links to resources based on today's episodes in the show notes and on our blog at toxictroom.com slash blog. We are so grateful to have Ton join us today. Keep up on her shenanigans and the trials of being an empress at Tomlandia.com. That's T-A-W-N-L-A-N-D-I-A.com. Just don't try to talk to her before she's had her coffee. She can be a bit of a dragon in the morning.

[Stella]: 55:02

Bye!

[Tawn]: 55:02

Just a little bit.

[Roberta]: 55:05

Bye. Just a little bit. Bye guys. We

[Tawn]: 55:08

Bye

[Roberta]: 55:08

love

[Tawn]: 55:08

bye.

[Roberta]: 55:08

all

[Tawn]: 55:08

Thank

[Roberta]: 55:09

of

[Tawn]: 55:09

you.

[Roberta]: 55:09

you.

[Stella]: 55:09

Bye.

[Roberta]: 55:09

Keep listening, subscribe.

[Stella]: 55:12

Bye.