Ask Mary Anything!!

She's back! We welcome corporate attorney extraordinaire, Mary Marbach, previously featured on our Layoffs and Lies and Violence in the Workplace episodes, back to the Tearoom to answer your submitted questions, offer insight, and supply you with the educational entertainment this podcast is known to provide!

Mary Marbach began her career in Palo Alto, California specializing in M&A and public company work. Her career led her to Florida, with several key positions, focusing on corporate work for companies at all stages.  She has served in the C-suite as Chief Legal Officer and is currently General Counsel and Corporate Secretary at Savant Science, Inc.

U.S. Department of Labor
Who Is Protected Against Discrimination? EEOC
Business Law Resources- American Bar Association
Workplace Psychological Safety Act
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Transcript

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The toxic Tea Room podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Neither the toxic Tea Room nor its parent that when both productions LLC is responsible for the statements or opinions of its guests submissions or content derived from publicly available sources, content should not be interpreted as targeting specific companies, organizations or individuals. The toxic Tyrion podcast and that one booth productions LLC are not responsible for any actions taken by individuals as a result of any kickass content produced on this podcast. listeners are encouraged to vet any recommendations with certified professional personnel. For more information on her disclaimer, and to read our blog with fun Easter eggs throughout, visit our website at www.toxictearoom.com. I'm Roberta and I'm Stella. Welcome to the toxic tea room. This episode is a long time coming. Ask Mary Anything! yes, we are joined by the amazing incredible incomparable Mary Mar Buck once again to address your general employment concerns. If this is your first time joining us welcome to the tea room. Mary has graced us with her considerable legal chops on prior episodes on layoffs and workplace violence. We save all the fun topics for Mary We know that's what we save Mary for all the fun stuff that you know, all the good stuff we can go. Yep, y'all can joke about she graciously extended an offer to our listening audience to answer a wide variety of questions, which is what's happening right now. Before I turn it over to Mary for her disclaimer, I want to remind everybody that Mary Maura buck is a corporate counsel with decades of experience. I encourage everyone to listen to our layoffs and lies and workplace violence episodes for additional insight into just how amazing Mary is. Hello, Mary. Welcome. We are so excited to have Mary back. And can I just say you emphasize decades of experience, but she looks like she's started when she was oh, well, that was way before you know they had Oh, is that what happened? Have any of those child prodigies that graduate like college in eighth grade? And I didn't want to brag I'm gonna like that, because you know, but nevertheless, no, y'all are too. Thank you for having me back here today on the toxic Tea Room. Before we get started, I'm going to read a little disclaimer. And then we can get started. I'm appearing on this podcast for educational purposes only, as well as to give general information and a general understanding of the law. I'm not here to provide specific legal advice. This podcast does not create an attorney client relationship between me and any listener. The podcast should not be used as a substitute for competent legal advice from a licensed professional attorney in your state. And with that said, ladies, let's, let's say all right, it isn't Mary, an episode with Mary without that disclaimer. So we hit everybody up with two disclaimers back to back so that we can get into it. Everyone understands everyone's ready to go. I love it. So we've organized these questions into a couple of categories. The last category is one that Mary actually coined, and I loved it. Can my employer fire me for this? The first question I have is from a listener that seems to have witnessed some toxic behavior. So here we go. I'm a middle manager who witnessed discrimination against a subordinate, but neither the victim due to fear nor upper management want to do anything about it. Do I have a case? What's the best way to deal with that situation? Thanks, Roberta. This is such an interesting question. And I want to answer this question from two different perspectives. The first is the perspective of whether or not you have this listener has a legal case. And the second question, the second perspective I want to take is, what is this listeners obligation, whether it's their legal obligation, their moral obligation? The listener here asks, Do I have a case? And My instant reaction to this is a case for what? You weren't the victim of discrimination here listener? You witnessed discrimination, but you weren't. You weren't the victim of that discrimination. So I'm not sure that you have a case because I'm not sure that you have any damages and damages are a key part of winning a civil lawsuit. So I'm not sure that you have a case, your employer certainly has an obligation here. And the fact that upper management doesn't want to do anything about this is problematic from your employer's perspective. But I want to be really, really clear about this when we are managers of people. And we see things happen. We have, we have two obligations, one is human, and then one is our obligation as a manager to the company. In this case, it appears that this middle manager has gone to his or her manager, and his or her manager has not escalated, I would in that, in that position, recommend that that middle manager, then skip level this to the next level, because the company has exposure here. And if your manager isn't listening to it, someone needs to know and whether that's HR, whether that's a head of people, whether that's your managers, manager, you know, your your company best. And you should take that to someone who can help the company resolve this issue. The second piece of this is, as a middle manager, you are responsible for the team who reports to you. And I always encourage your listeners to remember that we're human beings at work first, and you have a human obligation to this person who works for you, your subordinate, who has been the victim of discrimination, you owe them two things. One, you owe them the candor to say, I saw this happen. And I understand that you don't want to escalate it because you're afraid of the outcome. But I have to, I have to escalate this for the company's well being, and also for yours, and to let that person know that you're going to take that up with management. You also have an obligation to make sure that this person who works for you this subordinate is okay. And I would really encourage you, as a middle manager, to always leave with that human side to always make sure that the people who report to you are taken care of as human beings. That's a great response. Very thorough. Thank you, Mary. Our next question comes. It's tied to the updated guidance from the Department of Labor on anti disparagement and non compete clauses in severance agreements. You mentioned that the Department of Labor has ruled anti disparagement and non compete clauses in severance agreements, illegal. I've never received a notice from my former employer of this should I be concerned. So I want to clarify here, the Department of Labor didn't rule that anti disparagement, non compete clauses are illegal, they they have ruled that in most cases, they are unenforceable. And that's a distinction that might be a distinction without a difference for our purpose here. But I want to be really, really clear. Your company cannot probably cannot enforce a non disparagement clause or non compete clause against you. There is no affirmative duty placed by the Department of Labor's new guidance on your employer to reach out and tell you that a severance agreement or a Separation Agreement that you entered into in the past is no longer enforceable no longer valid. They that that that just doesn't exist for your employer, you should know that those provisions are likely unenforceable based on the new guidance from the Department of Labor. But you should not expect to hear from your employer on that. Which is good clarification. And I think even Mary, if we could quickly touch on what disparagement is. So if we're going to be clear, we're not saying that everybody has the right to slander their former employer, like you can't lie about it. You're not That's not cool, regardless of the Department of Labor, or just in general, like that's something that is illegal to do. You cannot slander against another human or a company, particularly if you're trying to cause them financial harm. That's not what we're talking about. But if I have an opinion against my former employer, and I stated publicly, even in writing, even on the internet, I work there. This is my experience. I'm speaking from the point of my experience, if you're asking me for my personal recommendation, here's what it would be. That's not enforceable anymore based on what we're hearing from your guidance that because I happen to have signed an agreement that had that non disparagement clause in it and the company would view those comments if they were negative as disparaging. That's not enforceable. They can't come after me and sue me for that anymore. Is that correct? 100% Okay, so just so everyone in the listening audience understands, you know, it's not that you are permitted to just go yapping you can't make some Have up. That's not how this works. But if you had, if you're speaking from your opinion and your point of experience that's called, you know, freedom of speech. And you know, in most cases, it's something that you can get in trouble for it out in the private life. Like if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, did you talk about my mom? Like, it's not going to protect you from getting into fisticuffs, which we're not encouraging. But because you have a severance agreement with the prior employer that is upset that you are posting online about what your experiences that's too bad, so sad for them, just do it the right way. I just wanted to say, and by the way, you could tell us about it, and we keep your name out of it. So that works, too. Alright, here's a good one for you, Mary. And I am a big fan of proactive thinking. I'm a small business owner, when should I retain counsel, as I looked to expand yesterday? My advice to business owners is that you will never regret having an attorney, review your formation documents, review your partnership agreements, and make sure that you are buttoned up in your business. There are lots of things that attorneys will help you to consider that you might not have considered. And these are important things they they affect your again, your partnerships. They affect your banking relationships, your tax structures, there is never a wrong time as a business owner to hire an attorney. Is is it even more prudent? I'm just wondering, when you actually hire employees? Like is there more of an emphasis on it or? That's irregardless of Yeah, I think that hiring employees adds complexity to the business, which may add complexity to the to the legal issues the business faces. But I think the minute that you are going to start a business, you should make sure that you have an attorney don't even need to have a full time attorney, you don't need to hire a me to sit in your you know, in your business all the time. And, and make sure that everything's okay. But but there are plenty of small law firms solo practitioners who do nothing but help small companies set up their formation, make sure that they're, whether it's a corporation, or an LLC, or a sole practitioner, these documents are appropriately filed in the appropriate jurisdictions, depending on where you're going to do business. And an a good attorney will help you figure out what's the right solution for your situation. And it's going to be different. No matter what kind of business you're in, whether you are going to be a corporation, or an LLC, whether you're going to be incorporated in your state, or in Delaware, or Nevada. These are all questions that need to be answered from the beginning to protect you. And if you have partners to protect your partners and your partnership. And you can definitely do it after the fact it, it's just easier to do it from the beginning. Yeah, I like that. I do think a lot more people are trying to go at it themselves in little niche areas or diversifying income. So I'm so glad that you're saying that and it looks like we're tracking on that advice ourselves. So I'm happy about that. So here's the next question for you. When I think I have a work situation that requires the lawyer, what questions should I ask during my consultation, to ensure they can handle my case? Me too. When you're looking to hire an attorney, and you're doing an initial consultation, I want you to think about two things. I want you to think, is this attorney competent to handle my matter? And I want you to think are the vibes good? Right, and these are two separate things. And the first set of questions about whether or not this attorney is competent to handle my matter, are very easy questions to ask to get the information you need. When when you say to attorney, how many cases like mine have you handled before? What what do you expect the outcome of my case to be? Can you tell me what the steps will be to handle my matter and an attorney who's competent to engage in your matter whatever it is, Will We'll be able to walk you through all the things we'll be able to say, I've done 65 cases this year, just like yours, my success rate is 92%. I expect that this will take 16 weeks. And our first step will be to gather information to conduct interviews, to, to send to opposing counsel, interrogatory and request for discovery. And they'll be able to tell you all of the things that they would need to do to represent you effectively, the vibes check is is on you, right? We all like different styles of people, we all want different things in different moments. When I, when I first thought that I might get divorced years and years and years ago, the first attorney I went to see was had a reputation in the community as being an absolute Bulldog. And I met with him and I had a consultation with him. And he gave me lots and lots of good advice. And at the end of the meeting, he said to me, you don't need me, you and your spouse have are having a friendly dissolution of your marriage. There are other attorneys who are better at this, you should hire them. And if it ever gets ugly, come call me. And that's exactly right. Sometimes you need the Bulldog. Sometimes you want the guy with the baseball bat. And sometimes you don't need that you just need someone who'll get the job done, or who you think you can handle talking to on the phone every day. I think an important thing to ask an attorney before you hire them is how frequently will I hear from you? And by what method? I think another really important question is how are you going to charge me for this? And those things will all play into whether or not the vibes are good there to somebody who is going to say to you, I'm not going to communicate with you, you're going to I will tell you what I want from you. And you'll do as I say that that might not work for you. Only you know the answers to that. Can I interject with a quick little story, but one fantastic. When I had to deal with a divorce lawyer, TMI, maybe this is TMI, but whatever. Um, I felt like the lawyer was more on my ex's side. Like, it was so weird. But in the end, it was it was fine. But it you just made me remember. Like, he was like, Well, yeah, just give it to him. Yeah, cuz I had all the assets in my name. will save my trauma hood for another day. But you know, like, it was just so weird. I felt like and then I had went to a different lawyer at the time, just to see what was out there. And there was a bull dog, woman lawyer, she's like, Oh, we're taking him through the wringer. We're gonna take everything he hasn't like he doesn't have much. And I don't, I didn't need to, like take his birth, right. I mean, I didn't need to go that far. So it's so interesting how you really should match that fight, to to get what you want. And sometimes, sometimes it makes sense to have the biggest scariest lawyer you can find and afford. In certain cases, it's good to have the, you know, the Bulldog, who who won't let go and who will take them for everything you're worth. And, and sometimes it's not and you understand better than anyone else, what the kind of matter you're bringing to an attorney is and how you want to resolve it. You know, a long time ago, I had a mentor. I'll say his name Kelly, good. He's no longer with us. God rest his soul. But he was wonderful. So one of my first bosses in the big corporate world, and he gave me advice that stuck with me to this very day. I remember him saying, Hey, listen, as you go through life, you're going to run into challenges that are beyond even someone of your talent. You will run into areas where you would benefit from an accountant you would benefit from an attorney. He said even criminal attorneys which I took offense, he's like, no, no, no, not like that. You want to investigate who you want to have in your bullpen before the game starts not in the middle of the inning. That is exactly how he said it. He said you don't have to retain them, but you should understand what's there. And he said, and you at this stage in your life, you don't need a, you know, big firm attorney one day you will but have someone in your corner now to handle things like your will estate planning to do those things. Have them in your corner now so that you can go to them. And then years after that, when I started my first business, that was incredible advice. I did have an attorney already. And we outgrew him pretty quickly. And then we were in a big name firm. You know, we were working with Baker and McKenzie. And that came very quickly. But it was because I was already prepared to know, okay, then my partner and I said, okay, so where's our next one? Okay, so let's start interviewing firms. And we were ready for it. So that is good advice to just have those advisors, whatever aspect is, if it's, if you're not a good financial planner, get one, if you're not an attorney, get one have folks in your corner that you can use if not for you, a family member, you know, God forbid, you have a family member who is falsely accused, you don't want to go to the yellow pages, or what the equivalent of that now Yes, I'm a Gen X er, Don't come at me to go looking for somebody to defend your loved one, it just makes sense to at least be aware and engage, you know, the ones that you need, you know, get up, get them on a small retainer, or at least have them available for you if you need them. It just sounds like our listeners are planning on going back to the this goes back to the question of you know, when should a small business look to retain counsel, the truth is having counsel that you trust opens the door to their bullpen, their network, and people that they know and you can call them and say, You can call your business attorney and say, My brother got a DUI, can you recommend someone? My sister needs a divorce lawyer, can you recommend somebody and you now have a whole network? You also said something that I thought was really interesting. You said, you know, even if you're a lawyer, you need lawyers. And this is absolutely true. I, I don't I don't draft my own wills. I have an estate lawyer for that. And I have an executive compensation lawyer who helps me when I negotiate new jobs. And there's a reason if, if your brother in law sister, whoever it is, who's a, you know, who's a tax lawyer tells you they can't do your corporate documents. Don't ask them to believe them. Like, believe them when they say that, I guess it's very much in the same way, like in the medical world, your doctor isn't necessarily a neurosurgeon. You know, there's reason that specialties exist because medicine is very complex. The human body is very complex, and law is not simple. Law is actually quite complex, which is why attorneys exists. It's to help us not only as our advocate, but to also help us interpret what it is that we're looking at and what our odds could be and what's the best strategy forward. And to ensure that we're in line with our actions, especially in business, I don't want to operate outside the law. I don't even want to skim it. I want to be 100% within the boundaries, we're going on this new venture, are we there? This is how we wish to approach it. They're on your side for a reason. And that's why it does it makes perfect sense. Plan for it. I love these questions. 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Alright, so let's get into the can I get fired segment? We might even have a couple of extra ones in here for you, Mary, can I get fired? We always hear this there was a lot of questions that we kind of bundled into some of these were, Hey, can I get fired for this? Can my employer terminate me for this? And this is where some of you listening may actually relate to some of these questions. And you're going to find Mary has a pretty solid answer for you. So let's get started. Stella, you want to kick us off? Yes, you pet our company. So here's the first question. Our company has an unlimited PTO policy, can I be fired for using that PTO? If all my duties are done, I want to be really, really clear about this. Your company can fire you for any reason at all. It can fire you for no reason at all. It cannot fire you for a discriminatory reason. So if your company says we are firing you for using your PTO, that is not a discriminatory reason, it is not a protected reason. And so yes, your company can fire you for using your PTO that's checked. Now the good news is the good news is you can go online and say my company fired me for using the unlimited PTO they gave me as a perk when they hired me even at all my duties were done, those guys are jacked up and they can't fire you twice. And they can't sue you for that comment anymore. Because you're speaking from your own personal experience. See how we loop that back? See how we pulled everything together nice and neat for you. Oh, my God. Okay, so here's a good one who I feel for this one, I'm a heavily pregnant woman that was fired as part of a mass layoff do I have recourse you're in employer can fire you for any reason at all, or no reason whatsoever, that it cannot fire you for a discriminatory reason. If you were fired as part of a mass layoff, because you were pregnant, you may have recourse. But if you were fired as part of a male as part of a mass layoffs and you happen to be pregnant, you likely do not have recourse. Whether it is pretexts to fire you because of your pregnancy or not will depend on the circumstances will depend on things that have happened at your company the best only you know that if you believe that your termination, as part of a mass layoff was pretextual because you were pregnant, you should talk to a good lawyer in your area. But just because you're pregnant, it doesn't mean that you can't be fired as part of a layoff. And I totally get that. So what if? Because I think about I thought about this question a lot. And I would think that's hard to prove that it's because you're pregnant. But if the company is offering certain people different positions, but they don't offer the pregnant woman a different position is that circumstantial? Or is that? Could that be used as evidence towards the discrimination that you're pregnant? Sure, it would certainly depend on the situation and the exact circumstances. So, for example, if there were a layoff of say, I'm just going to make up numbers here for the sake of this discussion, right? If If, say a company of 100 employees laid off 10 employees, and of the 10 employees that had laid off, six of them were pregnant, that would certainly give rise to the idea that the layoff was a pre textual way to fire people who were pregnant. If there was evidence that, that a manager had said, Ugh, I hate that all of the ladies on my team are pregnant, because nobody gets anything done when they're pregnant. And you have that Slack message that you've squirreled away somewhere. You have some evidence that the company is discriminating against pregnant women, right? But this is going to be highly circumstantial related to each individual circumstance. And if you think that you have been discriminated against because of your pregnancy, because of your gender, because of your disability because of your race, religion, ethnicity, please go talk to a lawyer and have and talk through the whole thing. Tell them what your story is, and they will be able to tell you whether or not your circumstances are worth a lawsuit or, or simply going back to your employer and saying, We believe that you discriminated against us. And we would like a more generous severance package to go away. I like that. Okay, how about this one, if your employer fire, shoo, because your position has been eliminated, can they replace your duties with a new person and a different title, and still be within the law, your employer can fire you for any reason at all, or no reason whatsoever, so long as they don't fire you for a discriminatory purpose. So in this case, yes, your employer can fire you for whatever reason they want, they can fire you, because they just don't like the color of your shoes, they can fire you because you like to eat at your desk, they can fire you, because you don't like to eat at your desk, they can fire you for any reason they want. They don't have to have a reason to fire you. And they can do whatever they want after they fired you. That's the there are some provisions there. And that's why some of these individual situations, you know, when these questions are submitted, you know, I, I am aware of, for example, that the ADEA provides some protection if you have a federally recognized disability, and your employer terminate you. I believe the statute says that they have to put you into an available position like your you should be offered an available position if one exists, or they can't fill your role. For some time. I remember hearing that somewhere. There are some situations where these things could be different, but they're very specific situations. In general, sensing a theme here, sensing a theme, there is no guarantee of your job, right. So we should all understand that your employment is an unspoken and sometimes written agreement, I am giving you my time, my skills, my experience in exchange for a salary. And you will be obtaining all of that. And you'll have some goals for me. And we have this relationship in which if I do all of these things, I get paid. If the C suite makes a bunch of stupid decisions and has to lay off 50%, that's not a guarantee that you're not in that 50%. If to your point, they don't like your footwear, that's okay. They can literally fire you because they don't like you. They can't fire you because they don't like you because you're a person of color. They can't fire you because they don't like you because you have a disability, they can't fire you because you're a woman, they can fire you because they don't like you, as a woman like you yourself. They don't like you. So there is a line there. But everyone should recognize that there is and that's one of the unfortunate things. I think people get lulled into this sense of security that this is my employer, and therefore I'm going to as long as I do my job, I'm going to have a job. And that's not always true. Employees should know and understand that in the vast majority of terminations, regardless of how shitty it might be to do that to someone it's perfectly legal to do. We know that scruples can be in short supply. So less noble employers may choose to terminate someone for completely different reason than the reason protected. So for example, if someone has a disability and is about to get several weeks of short term disability pay due to a medically necessary procedure, firing them probably not the most sound option right from the employer, because immediately one would suspect you knew they were going to go on short term disability and you chose to fire them before you'd have to pay for that short term disability. So I think there are some situations where less scrupulous employers dance around the law a bit that the reason that, for example, this pregnant listener who submitted the question, it could be very possible that they recognize as these mass layoffs were going to occur, we have this associate who's heavily pregnant and is going to be out for an extended period of time anyway, let's just go ahead and include her so she can count towards our quota of people that were going to reduce by I could see that happening. I don't I'm not saying that it did, but I can see that. And that's one way that you would skirt around it, it was a mass layoff, you know, so it just there are things that everybody has an individual circumstance that may or may not lead into this. And so again, that's why you have counsel. That's why you should look into having competent representation for yourself and an advocate that you can speak to agree 100% If you are a small business owner, and you are or you are a large business owner, if you are a business owner, if you're a member of the C suite, if you are about to undertake layoffs, it would be Good idea for your organization to speak with your employment counsel, you should have a competent people leader on your team who has experience with this, who could take a look at the file and say, women are disproportionately impacted by this layoff. 40 people over 50 are disproportionately impacted by this layoff, or people with disabilities or whatever the issue is. And you should, and the company should make sure that it isn't using layoffs in a discriminatory purpose. If you are an employee, I want you to remember this, if you take one thing away from this, please take this away, you owe your company the same loyalty it gives you. And in today's day and age in the United States of America, where employees are at will our companies give us zero Lt. And that's what we should return to them, you are the captain of your career, you are the captain of your of your life. And you should keep your options open at all times your LinkedIn profile should be updated at all times, your resume should be ready to go. And if a recruiter calls you and says I have an interesting opportunity for you, you should take that meeting, even if you've been at your company for a long time. Even if they've engaged in training, and they've promoted you know, you should always steer your own ship. That is so beautiful. I gotta also add to that, like it will Safa Chol standpoint, personally, don't make the mistake of merging your identity with your company. Like that company doesn't make you who you are. Now you can develop skills, like I always think about my jobs. As you know, I'm here to learn something that I can, in turn make profitable for myself, which goes along with what your statement is very about making yourself the captain of your own life. And unfortunately, when you're spending so much time at work, and you become somebody to other people, there's this, if you don't practice good discernment, you tend to mix your identity with what you're doing. And those are two very distinct things. So I love that you harp on that, because to me, it is so important. And that's why sometimes losing a job can literally devastate people. And it's because they put an unhealthy emphasis on who they were based on the job. And so I love that people are finally waking up to that realization. And just one more quick thing is that you're absolutely right, in that back in the day, people spent 40 years at the same company. That's not the reality. Gen Z knows that very, very well. I'd say Millennials know it too. But Gen Xers are kind of in between, right? We still want to be somewhere along time, but we're capable of moving around to also. So it's just a good thing to understand that. So well. And I would say if I could just add to that Stella, everyone should know. I'm not saying that companies enjoy getting rid of people. I'm not going to say that is 100%. True. I think there are status everywhere. But then some of them run companies. But I think in general, it's bad business, to spend all of the expense to recruit people, and then have to attribute all of that and start over. You are interrupting processes, you're interrupting manufacturing, you're interrupting customer relationships. So anytime you have terminations, whether it's a mass layoff or just an individual, it is disruptive, it is incredibly disruptive. Sometimes it is the right thing to do. Sometimes that is an individual that you just have to let go. Sometimes it's a fiscal reason, right? We have to let X amount of people go because we don't have a choice. We lost a big account or whatever the case is. But understand that you as an individual are rarely in those meetings where those decisions are being made. You sometimes get lied to directly that hey, I'm a little worried the numbers aren't there. We're going to be looking at layoffs. No, no, everything's fine. And then there's a layoff You don't have to Mary's Point Be your own Captain, you have got to recognize that no matter how hard you work, no matter how much loyalty you have to accompany, if the opportunity comes where they have to let you go, they will do so without a second thought, understand that, that doesn't mean they're bad companies or bad people, if that's just the reality of the situation, the way that I explained it to people is the company will always be more important than the individuals within it, which is the biggest paradox because without the individuals, there's no company. But understand that that is true that the existence of the entity itself is more important than any of you as individuals, no one is going to take a hit on the company for your personal financial comfort, it isn't going to be the case, ever, when you are if you're an employer listening to this, you know, not only that these words resonate with reality, because it's true. But you can also choose to manage these situations to where it don't over hire, so that you don't over fire, you know, don't you know, bring people along only to drop them at, you know, the drop of a hat. Be honest with people, let them be honest back, I noticed something. I don't remember who posted it on LinkedIn. And I'm really, really sorry about it. But I thought this was wonderful, in terms of getting that feedback and avoiding some of these situations later, where somebody would sit down and say, hey, if I were to get a performance review from you today, what would you say? What would be the things that I could work on? What are the things that you applauded? And just having that conversation, often an early outside of you know, standard performance reviews goes a long way toward not only establishing trust, but also as an employee kind of tells you where you stand, right? If there's an ever a never ending list of ways that you could stop being a screw up, where you can't please your boss, you start to see things happening. Don't hedge your bets, like start looking, you know, to Mary's Point, take that meeting. Don't ever feel bad about looking out for yourself, because you are the only one that can no one else will. That's just the reality. I don't care how much your boss likes you. I don't care if you guys do brunch on Sundays, it doesn't matter, they will look out for themselves instead of you because we're human beings. And that's how we've been biologically programmed. It's survival. You got to look out for yourself. You just do. So Mary, do you have any final closing thoughts? I I do like you ending on the captain one. But any any other final thoughts on just, you know, hiring a lawyer or, or looking for counsel? Yeah, I think there's, there's never a wrong time to look for a lawyer. And so if you feel like you might need a lawyer, you're already late. I would urge people to business owners to consult with lawyers. Now, early soon, I would encourage employees who feel like they have been wronged by their employer to take a consultation with an employment litigator. Again, I think that has as Roberta said earlier, you know, we all have all different kinds of doctors, we all need all different kinds of lawyers. And if you are not sure where to look, for one, your state bar is a great resource. Most state bars have directories of lawyers by specialty, and your, your local communities probably a great source to whether that's a you know, religious community, your friends and family. There are people that you can that will refer you to great lovers. I just want to also thank both of you today. It was really fun to talk to you again. And happy, happy end of summer summer, and we love having you on. You're one of our favorite guests. We love having you on you're just so insightful. And what I also appreciate is it's not just that you are an attorney, but you have also been a people manager and an advocate for them. And so it shows in your answers it shows in your work. I really appreciate you coming on and spending time with us. I really do. And I think we have to leave it there still it's a sad but you guys keep sending in those stories and questions and rants and bitch sessions of which we get plenty by the way. That's for another episode to the tea bag at toxic tea room.com. If we didn't address your question today, it's because your question was either too big or too complicated to address in this particular format. Revise your thoughts. Send it into us again. We'll take another look if Mary is so kind enough later in a future episode to do part two of these we will certainly see if you could get that done for you. Yes, please subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn. That new thing ex Instagram and Tiktok you can also To support us by supporting our various affiliates, and you can find those on on our blogs for additional information, and we will share this exact episode and resources in the show notes and unmet blog at toxic tea room.com/blog. Mary, I can't say enough about you. We're just so appreciative of you. I mean, we just love having you on and sharing your time and expertise with our listeners. We do hope that everyone finds this to be as insightful as we have keep it legal, keep it sane and keep it toxic free. Until next time,