Self-Advocacy- You Can Do It!

Ever wish you could have someone in your corner that you could call up at a moment's notice? Someone that has your back (or "got your six", for you military vets out there!)?
Well, your wish has been granted- because it is YOU!

In this episode, we are joined by the incredible Jessica Childress to explore the concept of self-advocacy. Jessica is the managing attorney and founder of the Childress Firm PLLC, a boutique employment law firm based in Washington, D.C. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Government and African American Studies from the University of Virginia and a Juris Doctor from the University of Virginia School of Law. While in law school, Ms. Childress graduated Phi Beta Kappa and with High Distinction from the University of Virginia in 2007. 

Jessica served as a federal judicial law clerk for the Honorable Alexander Williams, Jr. in the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, served as an associate at two global law firms and as an attorney for the United States Department of Justice. Ms. Childress represents clients in all aspects of employment law, having litigated retaliation, discrimination, sexual harassment, non-competition, trade secret, unfair labor practice, and whistleblower cases before various tribunals. She is admitted to practice in Virginia, Maryland, and the District of Columbia and admitted to practice before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, the United States District Court for the District of Maryland, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, and the United States District Court for the Western District of Virginia…and Supreme Court of the United States!

Ms. Childress has held leadership roles in the National Bar Association’s Young Lawyers Division and the Washington Bar Association’s Young Lawyers Division. She has been the recipient of several honors, including the National Bar Association's 2018 Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the Washington Bar Association's 2017-2018 Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the National Bar Association’s 40 under 40 Best Advocates Award, the Kim Keenan Leadership & Advocacy Award, the Greater Washington Area Chapter of the National Bar Association’s Rising Star Award, and recognition by the National Black Lawyers as one of the top 100 black attorneys.  In 2022, the esteemed Ms. Childress received the Women Owned Law organization's Woman Legal Entrepreneur of the Year Award. Ms. Childress has been named to the 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 Washington, D.C. Super Lawyers Rising Stars lists- which, for those of you unfamiliar with the honor, is awarded to only 2.5% of practicing attorneys in Washington, D.C. 

Jessica is a 2022 graduate of the Aspen Institute's Justice and Society program and serves as a contributor for Arianna Huffington's international media outlet, Thrive Global. In addition to her appearance

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Transcript

[Stella]: 0:02

The toxic tea room podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Neither the toxic tea room nor its parent that one booth productions LLC is responsible for the statements or opinions of its guests, submissions or content derived from publicly available sources. Content should not be interpreted as targeting specific companies, organizations, or individuals. The toxic tea room podcast and that one booth productions LLC. are not responsible for any actions taken by individuals as a result of any content produced on this podcast. Listeners are encouraged to vet any recommendations with certified professional personnel. For more info on our disclaimer and to read our blog with fun Easter eggs throughout, visit our website at www.toxictroom.com.

[Roberta]: 0:55

I'm Roberta.

[Stella]: 0:56

And I'm Stella. Welcome to the Toxic Tea Room.

[Roberta]: 1:13

Fall is almost here!

[Stella]: 1:17

I love fall.

[Roberta]: 1:20

You know what else I love about fall? I like baking, as you know.

[Stella]: 1:25

Yes.

[Roberta]: 1:26

I'm a great baker, would you agree?

[Stella]: 1:28

She is... dude.

[Roberta]: 1:29

What's the favorite thing I make that I taught you to make?

[Stella]: 1:33

well the bread but I

[Roberta]: 1:35

The

[Stella]: 1:35

do

[Roberta]: 1:35

bread.

[Stella]: 1:35

like all those muffins I've made blueberry muffins, strawberry muffins, blackberry muffins and I'm still waiting to taste the Mexican chocolate muffins.

[Roberta]: 1:46

I can't wait to have you taste the Mexican hot chocolate cupcakes.

[Stella]: 1:51

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 1:51

I can't wait. I love baking. I also love, well. I love Halloween. I don't go crazy on Halloween. We're not the family that decorates their house like a haunted house because that's a lot of work for literally one day. Christmas is a season, right? So you can

[Stella]: 2:09

Right.

[Roberta]: 2:09

do Christmas. But Halloween, that's a lot of work for just

[Stella]: 2:14

It

[Roberta]: 2:15

one

[Stella]: 2:15

is.

[Roberta]: 2:15

day of scaring children, right? And I don't like to scare the little babies. I think they look adorable. Teenagers is fair game. I'll scare the hell out of a teenager that dares

[Stella]: 2:23

I'm gonna go get some water.

[Roberta]: 2:23

trick or treat in my house. I'm just gonna be honest about it. you can go get a job and buy your own candy. Why are you here? And so those are my favorite. But it got me thinking, you know, there are a lot of horror stories out there in the workplace. People have sent us some. What if we ran a little thing in October where we ask our listening audience to send us their workplace horror stories and we'll read them with our podcasts that are already scheduled for October. and then we can post them on our blog and our listeners can vote for their favorite. And then we will send that submitter and we'll keep it confidential everybody, don't worry. But let us know where to send you your prize if you win. Our brand new limited edition toxic tea room mugs. We'll send

[Stella]: 3:14

Woohoo!

[Roberta]: 3:14

them one. I mean, you know, people work with their, you know, their boss is a monster. Their teammates

[Stella]: 3:21

Hehehe.

[Roberta]: 3:21

are goblins. There's always those ghosts that can't be found when you need them. Help desk. You know, those sorts of things where I think there's enough horror stories out there to tie into Halloween. So send us your workplace horror stories to the teabag at Toxic Tearoom. and we will get you in that contest. And you know, we're also gonna supplement with some of our favorite reviews that have great horror stories on them from Glassdoor and other sites that we find absolutely hysterical. We could never find a way to incorporate them into the podcast, so we're gonna make this an opportunity for us to share some of those as well. So yay, so excited.

[Stella]: 4:07

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 4:07

And by the way, none of that has anything to do with our amazing guest and episode today, but we had to take the opportunity to tell you, We're thrilled beyond explanation for

[Stella]: 4:19

Yes.

[Roberta]: 4:19

our guests today. You have no idea what you are in for today. I know that there are listeners, some of whom may, I don't know, I don't wanna say, because you know, we have people in our previous work lives that don't want to give any honor whatsoever to this podcast because. they don't want to acknowledge that they listen to it, even though we get all of the stats of where our listeners are. And so there's certain areas where we're like, we don't have a necessary population in that area of organic listeners for this podcast. We know who's listening. So I don't want to bring them into this to make it seem like, you know. We care about them because genuinely we don't think about them every day, even though I'm sure they think we do, but we literally don't. And the reason I bring them up is because I'm sure some of them would be like, I don't know, they get these guests. I mean, they get,

[Stella]: 5:19

Hehehehehehe

[Roberta]: 5:20

it's people they know, people they've worked with. Okay, so yeah, they've got, I mean, okay, so Farah Harris, okay, she wrote a book. Okay, so whatever. That's fine. Whatever.

[Stella]: 5:30

She

[Roberta]: 5:30

even though

[Stella]: 5:30

was

[Roberta]: 5:30

that's

[Stella]: 5:30

badass

[Roberta]: 5:30

an incredible

[Stella]: 5:31

though.

[Roberta]: 5:31

book. She's

[Stella]: 5:32

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 5:32

a badass. I love me some Farah Harris. Look, Farah, if you're listening, I love you. She knows I love her. I, all day for Farah. But I don't think they understand what we're talking about with this particular guest

[Stella]: 5:46

Yeah,

[Roberta]: 5:46

who is honoring

[Stella]: 5:47

today,

[Roberta]: 5:47

us today.

[Stella]: 5:48

too late today we leveled up a few levels.

[Roberta]: 5:51

We leveled

[Stella]: 5:51

So

[Roberta]: 5:51

up. Look, you all don't understand, but just for the, just so you guys know, I'm gonna do a little soliloquy in introducing our guest, Jessica Childress. Jessica is the managing attorney and founder of the Childress Firm PLLC, a boutique employment law firm based in Washington, DC. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Government and African American Studies from the University of Virginia and a Juris Doctor from the University of Virginia School of Law. Oh, by the way, while she was in law school, she was both an editorial board member for the Virginia Journal of Social Policy and the Law and an executive board member of the Student Bar Association. in the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia. Again, all of this is while she's still in law school. She graduated Phi Beta Kappa, sorry, with high distinction from University of Virginia in 2007. Now, maybe you're impressed with that, maybe you're not, but that's okay, because I'm not done. We're in for a soliloquy. Buckle up, because Jessica served as a federal judicial law clerk for the honorable Alexander Williams Jr. in the U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland, served as an associate at two global law firms, attorney for the United States Department of Justice. Can I repeat that last time by one more time? For the USDOJ. Okay, so we're still, okay, you want more? Okay, I got more. Ms. Childress represents clients in all aspects of employment law having litigated retaliation. Discrimination, sexual harassment, non-competition, trade secret, unfair labor practice, and whistleblower cases before various tribunals. She's admitted to practice law in case some of you, you know, maybe want to pick up on this. She's admitted to practice law in Virginia, Maryland, DC, and, because again, I know some people are hard to please, and admitted to practice before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, the United States District Court for the District of Maryland. the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, the US District Court for the Western District of Virginia, and the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Yes, people. Uh-huh. So are you still playing hard

[Stella]: 7:59

Supreme

[Roberta]: 7:59

to get with your...

[Stella]: 8:00

that's like

[Roberta]: 8:01

I mean,

[Stella]: 8:01

a supreme pizza. Okay,

[Roberta]: 8:02

I mean,

[Stella]: 8:03

like that's the Supreme Court

[Roberta]: 8:04

like... the Supreme Court, because not everybody can just roll into SCOTUS and say, what's up? That's not how it works, everybody. You can't just show up. Like you can't open up your phone book and say, I would like to take my case to the Supreme Court. Let me flip

[Stella]: 8:19

I'm

[Roberta]: 8:19

here

[Stella]: 8:19

sorry.

[Roberta]: 8:19

and see who's there. That's not how it works. You have to go through a process to show you're qualified to step foot in those chambers. And Jessica Childress is, but we're not done yet. Are you still playing hard with your admiration? Okay, I got you. She's held leadership roles in the National Bar Association's Young Lawyers Division and the Washington Bar Association's Young Lawyers Division. Oh, not enough? You want some more? You want some formal recognition? Will that finally put you over the edge and make you swoon? Well, get on that fainting couch including the National Bar Association's 2018 Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the Washington Bar Association's 2017 to 2018 Young Lawyer of the Year Award, the National Bar Association's 40 Under 40 Best Advocates Award, and the King, I'm sorry, Kim Keenan Leadership and Advocacy Award, the Greater Washington Area Chapter of the National Bar Association's Rising Star Award, and recognition by the National Black Lawyers as one of the top 100 Black attorneys. Oh, I'm sorry. Are you done writing? Because I'm not done yet, people. In 2022, the esteemed Ms. Jesseth Childress received the Women Owned Law Organization's Women Legal Entrepreneur of the Year Award. Ms. Childress has been named to the 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 Washington DC Super Lawyers Rising Stars List, which, if you don't know what that is, it's awarded to only 2.5%. of practicing attorneys in Washington, D.C. Mic drop, boom. Jessica's a 2022 graduate of the Aspen Institute's Justice and Society Program, serves as a contributor for just a few publications you might be familiar with, so here we go. Ariana Huffington's international media outlet, Thrive Global, in addition to her appearance on the Toxic Tea Room podcast today, which I am confident. is the shining glory of all of her accomplishments, is her appearance on this podcast today. But in addition to this, she's been featured on numerous publications, including Forbes, Essence, The Huffington Post, Success, and Entrepreneur. Jessica, we are honored and humbled

[Stella]: 10:33

Welcome.

[Roberta]: 10:34

to have you join us. Welcome to the Tea Room.

[Stella]: 10:38

Woohoo!

[Jessica Childress]: 10:39

Thank you so very much Roberta and Stella for that amazing introduction. I have never received an introduction with that much animation and excitement. So I'm excited. So thank you so much for having me today on your podcast. It's truly, truly an honor.

[Roberta]: 10:58

We're honored, we're so honored for you. Now, before we get started, because we have had attorneys on this podcast in the past, some of them want to put in a little disclaimer. I didn't know if you wanted to do that as well.

[Jessica Childress]: 11:11

Absolutely. So the information that I'm discussing today, it's for informational and educational purposes only. If you are enduring a toxic workplace or a hostile workplace, it's really important that you seek an attorney who is licensed to practice in the jurisdiction where you are. So the information does not create an attorney-client relationship between the this information that I'm discussing today is for informational and educational purposes only.

[Stella]: 11:45

Great, great, great. All right, let's jump right in. Today, we are speaking about self-advocacy. And I love this topic for many, many reasons. Obviously, for its philosophical nature, its importance to a healthy collaboration at work and life with other human beings, but also because I frequently have to encourage my children to learn to do it. And while I was researching self advocacy, I heard a term called intrinsic motivation. And I really like those words put together. So even though we call it an intrinsic motivation to advocate for yourself, there's parts of it that aren't intrinsic. It's not like your born knowing how to defend yourself or how to speak up for yourself. But I definitely thought it is something that happens internally and it is a motivation to advocate for yourself. So anyway, I really love this topic because people speak about empowerment and autonomy. And they're closely aligned to this. But let's get technical for a minute. According to Anthony Van Roosen, who wrote extensively on self advocacy, it is an individual's ability to effectively communicate, convey, negotiate, or assert his or own interest. desires, needs, and rights. It involves making informed decisions and taking responsibility for those decisions. So to jump right in, Jessica, do you have a pulse on how well or not well our working society in America does this? Are there certain industries that do better than others? Are there certain demographics that do this better than others?

[Jessica Childress]: 14:07

Sure, so thank you so much Stella for this question. I think it's a question that's right on. As a society, it's extremely hard to advocate for ourselves. I'm a trained advocate and I'll take a personal example. I've been advocating for myself since I was a little girl on the playground. I think it was much easier when I was in fifth grade or in kindergarten when there was a bully on the playground and I would stand up to the bully and say, you're not going to speak to me like that, or you won't speak to my friend like that, or you won't speak to the kid on the bus like that. I was absolutely that advocate to stand up to bullies, and I think that probably motivated my desire in some way or another to become a lawyer and speak up for others. But I was just the person who didn't have a problem standing up for positions and causes throughout my life. I've done that. I would say though, as I became a more experienced professional, it became harder for me, even in the workplace, as a trained advocate, even after law school, working at some of the best firms in the country, working as an attorney with the Bureau of Prisons, a component of the Department of Justice, to speak up for myself. And that's knowing what my rights were, knowing what the law was. So I'll just give you a statistic. 54 and 81% of women report experiencing some form of sexual harassment at work. But a Harvard Business Review survey found that only 58% of women report receiving or being a victim of sexual harassment in the workplace. So those numbers are alarming. The numbers of people who report are, they far, They're far outnumbered by the people who actually experience harassment at work. That just shows you how hard it is to advocate for oneself.

[Stella]: 16:11

Right. And that is with something as drastic as sexual harassment, because sometimes, and maybe oftentimes, it's not something as drastic, but you're not speaking up for yourself. Like someone says a slight or like someone just digs at you passive aggressive behavior to say to say things and a lot of people won't speak up for themselves in that case.

[Jessica Childress]: 16:44

That's exactly right. So it's hard to stand up for yourself. It's not something that we are trained, I received training as a lawyer. I served on my university's judiciary committee when I was in college. So throughout my life, despite the intrinsic motivation to speak up for others, I have actually been trained on how to advocate with my verbal words and also with my written word. But that's just not something that happens on an everyday basis, everyone is not trained to do so. So it's a hard thing to do. It's a hard, you have to have that extrinsic motivation. And I think that, and we'll talk more about how that comes about in the workplace as we get further down, as we go further along in the podcast, but I think it's hard. I'll just make it very simple. It's very difficult internally to speak up. for something to speak up for yourself, especially when you have people who are relying on you for your sustenance, you may be a caretaker, you may be a parent, you may simply have to care for yourself, and our jobs, they are in our lifeline. And so when we're speaking up for ourselves at work, there's a lot that we put on the line. And so that's one of the reasons why it's just simply hard to speak up for oneself in the workplace. We often don't recognize the signs of what's normal and what's not normal. And we can talk more about that. But there are several reasons why people don't speak up. But as a society, I think we all struggle with how to advocate for ourselves.

[Roberta]: 18:26

You know, I do want to comment on the utter irony. of hosting a podcast to talk about self-advocacy with a top-tier attorney, who is absolutely an incredible advocate for others. So I just want to comment on that. It's interesting. We've had a former guest on who I now consider a friend, Deb Falzoy, who is leading an effort starting in Massachusetts, but we've got some ground gaining in of all places, Texas, which is incredible, for the Workplace Psychological Safety Act, at the state levels eventually roll up into federal legislation to have it incorporated with other federally recognized areas of harassment. But the whole concept of treating people fairly, of not just the microaggressions and the digs that we spoke extensively about with Farah Harris on our last episode, but also candidly just the outright maneuvering, what people consider office politics are one thing. You don't talk to him before 8 o'clock. because he's having his coffee and or you don't know those guys used to date so they're not a meanie like that kind of nonsense but the fact that you know that power dynamic that doesn't tend to shift very favorably one way or the other and to your point Jessica because you said this brilliantly it is hard to stand up for yourself when you find yourself on the downside of that power dynamic whether it's because of a federally protected class or not it's I think, you know, we've talked about this again on the microaggressions episode, which if you guys haven't heard that, you need to go hear that. Because again, Farah Harris, big fan. But if you think about how difficult it is to, you know, get people now that, you know, and by get people, I mean, everyone understands what you can or can't do from a federally protected standpoint nowadays. I'm not saying that it's wiped out anything far from it. I think aggressors simply got better at going right on the fringe of things, right? you know, for example, if I as a woman, obviously you walk in, you have some protections as a woman, you can't fire me simply because I'm female, you can't, you know, tell me how I need to act because I'm a female, you have to, you can't treat me any differently simply because I'm female, yet we're still paid 60 cents to every dollar or whatever the latest stat is. That still exists. I view that as a way of continually, again, if I stand up and say, um, that person has worked here as long as I only my numbers are better, I would like a raise. I don't even make what this person makes, I would like a raise. Then you're seen as dramatic. Then you're seen as stirring the pot. When is it okay? I mean, everybody should stand up for themselves because I'm a firm believer that if no one is born to be a doormat. You know, I believe, at least the God I believe in doesn't create me to not be my best, doesn't create me to be abused in any scenario that I am supposed to stand up for myself. When does it become difficult for you to do that in a safe way at work? How would you advocate for somebody to even start advocating for themselves?

[Jessica Childress]: 21:43

So Roberta, it's really important that people are educated. So listening to podcasts, I mean, that's a wonderful source of education, but doing research using resources that are released by federal bodies like the EEOC, the Department of Labor. So the EEOC is the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Your local fair employment practices agencies, which are the counterpart. to the EEOC. Those are the agencies that enforce civil rights in the employment arena, as well as other arenas, but specifically the employment arena. So doing research to understand what your rights actually are because they vary wildly across jurisdictions. We offer, my firm offers training on anti-harassment. I do trainings typically and I train organizations on how to create more inclusive. more compliant workplaces. However, it's important that organizations are offering these trainings. It's important that they're offering them and not just offering them one time, but offering them consistently. And then taking that, going away from those trainings, actually effectuating what's being taught in trainings, not just letting the training be something that you check off of a box. So it's really important to not just walk the walk. but talk, not just talk the talk, but actually walk the walk with the information that you're imparting upon your employees. So it starts if you believe that you are encountering a toxic workplace, it really, it really matters that you are doing your research to understand the differences between a toxic versus an unlawful hostile workplace, because those are different concepts. So being ignored at work, on the basis of a category that's not legally protected, it feels uncomfortable. It's a microaggression, and the work that you're doing is wonderful to advocate for protecting against microaggressions. However, microaggressions right now are not unlawful, and that's a problem. That's a problem because they create uncomfortable workplaces, toxic workplaces for people.

[Roberta]: 24:07

Agreed. And again, I do believe that you're 100% correct. All hostile work environments that are illegal are of course, by definition, toxic work environments. But not all toxic work environments are illegal by definition today. I do believe though, that some of these behaviors, ignoring someone, sliding someone, those sorts of microaggressions, They kind of skirt the law a little bit, but the intent is still there, right? The intent is still, we want you to be isolated. We don't want to recognize you. We don't want you to be comfortable here. In fact, what else can we do to make you uncomfortable that is not illegal, right? So I don't have to invite you to the meeting.

[Stella]: 24:52

I think sometimes it's also not just, it's to keep people down

[Roberta]: 25:00

course.

[Stella]: 25:00

because they don't, people feel threatened by someone who comes in confidently and knows what they're worth and knows what they're willing. And so people don't, from a, from an on the ground perspective, they don't know how to deal with that and they feel threatened. like, well, this person can speak better than me. So maybe I should keep them down so that they don't replace me. That type of thing.

[Jessica Childress]: 25:31

I think when organizations haven't defined what their values are and if respect is not a core value, you are going to have those insidious cases of microaggressions that lead to a toxic work environment. And not just for one person, but for everyone, because it's not comfortable to know that someone is experiencing a toxic work environment, even if it doesn't arise to the level of an unlawful work environment. So, when you recognize that someone's being disrespected because of maybe insecurity or for whatever reason, for whatever reason that person is being disrespected in the workplace, it's important to speak up. So we're talking today about self-advocacy, but I think it's important, and I train on this, don't just advocate for yourself, advocate for the other person, advocate for the person if you have a more powerful voice, if you have a position of power. it's important to use that position of power to advocate for people in the workplace that may not have that same position of power that you see are undergoing either toxic workplaces and or hostile workplaces and hostile work environments. It's important to use that position of power to check in on the person and maybe empower them, maybe remind them of what resources are available to them. within the organization or outside of the organization. So if you're experiencing a toxic workplace, if you feel comfortable doing so, ask. Ask your human resources department. Ask your ERG groups, your employer resources groups. What resources are available to me maybe to talk to someone within the organization, to let them know what I'm going through, because that's where advocacy starts. I think it starts with information. I know that whenever I'm about to do something that's monumental or that challenges me or scares me, I always start with the research. I start with who's done it before, what was the roadmap? And people come to lawyers because typically they think we have a roadmap and we typically do, I mean, that's our role is to come up with a strategy. But I think one of the biggest roles that attorneys play is empowering someone to let them know you have rights and here's what they are. So the things that you are complaining about, and I use the term complain because that's just the word that we use in the law when you're about to file something or send a letter to someone, we call it complaining, but it's not really complaining, it's reporting. And so if you are to complain of something within the workplace, it's important just to understand what your rights are. And I think one of the roles that attorneys play and why, It's important at some point within your workplace journey to consult with an attorney because we can give you our opinion about what we think the law is and what the facts are in your case, whether we think you're actually enduring a toxic work environment and or a hostile work environment that's actually unlawful and where we think you should go from there. But in terms of starting, not everyone has access to legal counsel. And... That's, you're between a rock and a hard place if you are enduring a toxic work environment and you don't know where to go. You don't know who to turn to. And so it's important that you seek as many resources as you can and understand what exactly, what are the parameters here? You know, what are my rights? How do I enforce them? If there are no legal rights, is there another way that I can endure? this work environment? Can I get out of this department? Can I work for a new boss? Can I take some administrative leave time so that we can assess the situation? And so there are many, many scenarios that can play out, but it's important that employees understand what the range of options are.

[Roberta]: 29:41

I actually want to comment on that very quickly because... You know, a lot of times we think of self-advocacy as standing up for yourself, speaking up, saying something, but you're also really talking about acting for yourself. You know, you don't have to be stuck. You can choose to look at what's available to you. You can examine your options, whether they're within the organization, as you describe, perhaps a lateral transfer internally, another role, another job or outside of the company, but that you don't have to be stuck. You can choose to take action for yourself, advocate for your sanity, your mental health, your physical health, your sleep again, and get yourself into a better place. I think that's a really important point. I didn't want that to get lost. I think that's amazing.

[Stella]: 30:27

Yeah, that's great. So we were going to kind of take this a little more in my linear thinking. You start, where do you start learning about self advocacy? Let me give you a little story. My son, my youngest son just started third grade and he had to go to the bathroom and the teacher decided to leave the room for a while. So by the time the teacher came back, he was in tears and he needed to go to the bathroom and the teacher said no. I don't know why you would say no to a kid who's crying first week of school, but he did. Anyway, so I was telling him, you speak up, you get louder or just go, because you're not gonna get in trouble with me if you just go to the bathroom. But I noticed, or I like to think through, where does it start? Because... You know, you're a small little human. You learn a lot from your parents. Then you go into our educational system, which this podcast is not about that. I have a lot to say. And depending on where you go to school, obviously there's some disparity there. But just the educational system, I don't think... does self advocacy any justice? I mean, you learn to raise your hand, for example, and I know there's been some changes to not having every kid just facing a teacher. Now they do a lot more group work, things like that. But where do you learn self advocacy? Where's the best ways to learn it outside of hopefully? parents who are in the audience listen and have conversations with your children for the love of God and start teaching these things because unless you're like Jessica who did advocate for others and herself, other children may not know it's an option. They may not ever feel empowered. And this is Future Workforce. So the earlier we get to it, the better it is, right, Jessica?

[Jessica Childress]: 33:06

Yeah, so I mean, I think you raised some wonderful points, Stella. Growing up, I heard the mantra stay in a child's place. So that meant when adults were talking, you

[Stella]: 33:18

Yes.

[Jessica Childress]: 33:19

let them talk, you stay in a child's place, you did not assert your opinion. So I just got in trouble. I just said, I'm not staying in a child's place. This is my place. And so I, you know, I did what my parents called talk back. And it served me well. As a kid, I was just grounded, but it served me well in my adult years because that was just a part of my personality. And then now I use talking back and advocating professionally, obviously. But I don't know. I think starting at home, I mean, my parents certainly put me in positions to speak up for myself. Um, you know, I think as long as like, was it like counter countering anything they were saying, it was fine. Uh, but they did give me opportunities like serving on the debate team when I was in high school and, uh, doing a girls empowerment and teen empowerment organizations, um, so there were opportunities that were more structured. But I do think parents can let kids know you do have a voice and, you know, I'm not a parent, but. And so I understand that parenting is challenging. And so I don't like to offer parenting advice because I'm not a parent, but I do think that there is value in letting kids know your voice matters. I do, you know, shameless plug. I do write about a little 11 year old girl lawyer named Jurisprudence. And I write children's books and those books are to empower. girls especially to speak up for themselves and to understand that even though you are young you have a voice because I think self-advocacy and the ability to speak up for yourself, it's paramount. You know, there are so many injustices in the world and if you do not have the voice or the courageousness to speak up against those injustices, I really think you will live a life of regret. Unfortunately, when you see things around you that you don't have the courage to speak up for, I know for me, every time that I've seen an injustice that I didn't speak up for, I felt regretful about it. And so I very much, it is my mission to make sure that people do feel empowered speaking up when I'm training companies and organizations. It's important that they leave understanding that they do have tools to speak up and that... managers and supervisors know that it is their responsibility to respond appropriately when there is an allegation. That's what I train organizations on and that's what I try to empower. I try to empower kids to make sure that they understand that their voice does matter. You know, whatever it matters when you're an advocate for someone. I know that I know I've been bullied on the playground before. And when someone, even though I was stepping up to bullies and speaking up against bullying, I also very much had been bullied. And so when someone spoke up for me and was an advocate, that felt really good. I don't know that I've been bullied in my adult years, but I've certainly faced unfairness in my adult years. And when someone has said, hey, that's just not okay. even in workplace meetings when I have been mansplained or Interrupted during meetings and someone stopped that behavior that mattered to me and that was just a microaggression. It wasn't a macroaggression Nonetheless, it made being mansplained or interrupted during a sentence made me feel less empowered And it made me feel as though my voice did not matter as much so those small acts of intervening matter to people. And they do change culture because when you're interrupted when speaking, the person may not even know that they're doing that. But when someone actually calls it out and says, hey, so-and-so was speaking, Jessica was speaking, Bob was speaking, Frank was speaking, you're interrupting them. Or if you... And Roberta, do you want, or Sela, do you want to explain what mansplaining means for the audience? Members who may not have heard that term.

[Roberta]: 37:53

I am confident that everyone that listens to this podcast has been a victim of mansplaining, if not someone that has seen it happen. But I love that term so much. For those of you that may not be familiar, and maybe if you are a gentleman listening, and you're like, I hear that, but I don't know really what that is. When a woman says something like, so I've looked at the projections, and I think we've had a miscalculation X, Y, Z, but if we take these actions, I feel we can correct it because of ABC. And then you come in right after her and say, so everybody, here's what she's trying to say. So if we adjust it, like that's not necessary. Don't do that. That's not necessary. She said what she said. If anyone has a question, they can ask her directly and she can answer it. And it tends to happen with men and women. There's not a lot of female splaining going on. But nobody has reports of that, even though sometimes, candidly, it's more necessary. We can't even say it, so here's what they're really trying to say. But that's what it is. And yes, it is a microaggression because it infers that a person who is male is necessary to be able to decipher what the female is saying, regardless of how clearly she says it, regardless of her expertise in the space. It's one of the most annoying things that can occur by the way to women in business for you guys that are out there. So if you if you ever catch yourself doing it, hopefully this helps and you catch yourself and stop. So yeah, I'm sorry. I don't have anything to add. And that's fine. Like that's totally fine. She will love you for it. And if you hear somebody doing it and this is much more powerful coming from a man than it is a woman. If you hear someone mansplaining, call them out and say, yeah, we understood it when she said it. So that thanks for jumping in. That will end it. But yes, that is what mansplaining is. as everybody. This is your lesson of the day the more we know.

[Stella]: 39:52

Yeah

[Jessica Childress]: 39:52

Thank you so much, Roberta. You explained that wonderfully. And that is what, being mansplained, for example, that is just one microaggression, small item in the workplace, but occurring over and over again can make someone feel very uncomfortable. But when someone calls it out and says you're doing it, and then it stops, that act of stopping can make the person who is the victim of the mansplaining feel far more empowered.

[Roberta]: 40:21

Yes.

[Jessica Childress]: 40:22

in the workplace. So we all play a role in making the workplace safer for each other. And that requires self-advocacy, but also the advocacy for others. So if you are an educator, if you're a parent, really patting your kid on the back or your student on the back when they say, I'm going to stand up against this unfairness or I see something unfair that's happening. engaging with them and asking them hey why do you think this is unfair? What could we do differently? Because that act of engagement that's empowering.

[Roberta]: 40:58

I love that so much. And that's how people learn too, especially when, you know, their school age. And wouldn't it be great if there was an advocate in your corner when you're looking for your next role, someone who checked out the companies before listing those positions, how amazing would it be to only apply to companies that have been pre-screened for a positive culture and viability. And we recognize that not all employers are filled with boss holes, but your filled with hundreds of them from those other job boards. Imagine having a position that needs to be filled like right now, ASAP. You post the job on one of those other job boards, you come back to an overwhelming amount of applicants and have no idea how many of those applicants are serious, let alone qualified. So frustrating. Well, my dear listeners, you do have an advocate and hire my mom. Hire My Mom has united serious job seekers with employers that pass Hire My Mom's stringent approval process. They look at all the red flags, so you don't have to. And fam, that's important. They've done all the hard work for you. You don't need to go to all of those review sites. They've already checked them out. Hire My Mom is offering our listeners a 15% discount on job postings or a 15% discount on their popular Hiring Made Easy course. Use Toxic Tea Room, that's T-O-X-I-C, T-E-A. A-R-O-O-M, one word, at checkout. Get those opportunities toxic free, hiremymom.com.

[Stella]: 42:32

You're such a good spokeswoman. My

[Roberta]: 42:34

Thanks.

[Stella]: 42:34

goodness.

[Roberta]: 42:35

I love that they check it out because honestly, I wish I would have had hired my mom in our last job. That's all I'm saying. I would have known it.

[Stella]: 42:41

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

[Roberta]: 42:42

Anyway. So Jessica, as a successful litigator, just in case anybody wants to remember, like go back to the start of this and hear all of her successes, so this is not an opinion, this is a fact, as a successful litigator, can you offer some comfort to our listeners who feel limited in their ability to advocate for themselves or are literally restricted in that ability to the nature of their profession, existent corporate practices or practices or even employment agreements?

[Jessica Childress]: 43:11

Sure. So in the past, there were several policies and agreements that courts would find to be valid. In restricting an employee's ability to speak out against their organization or post-employment, to say anything disparaging against their organization, there has been a lot more scrutiny on the federal level of scrutiny into policies and agreements that limit an employee's ability to file a lawsuit or to disparage their organization or to speak out against unlawful policies and practices. So for example, the National Labor Relations Board, their general counsel this year, offered guidance that stated that confidentiality, confidentiality clauses and non-disparagement clauses in employment policies, separation agreements, employment agreements, they are going to be found to be unlawful. So that guidance may shift. Courts will have to review that guidance to determine if it is in fact going to be guidance that stands. But as of now, the National Labor Relations Board has been very vocal about the fact that these policies that prohibit an employee, an employee. the current employee or former employee from saying disparaging things about their organization, that's going to be in violation of the National Labor Relations Act. So that guidance is groundbreaking. You know, confidentiality clauses in severance agreements are commonplace. Non-disparagement agreements, non-disparagement clauses in separation agreements are commonplace. And so the fact that the National Labor Relations Board has said... No, a severance agreement is just a release agreement. It's just releasing an employer from any claims. That's pretty groundbreaking. In March of last year, President Biden signed the Ending Forced Arbitration of Sexual Assault and Sexual Harassment Act, which voids predisput arbitration agreements that require a party to arbitrate sexual assault or sexual harassment claims. So there's a growing trend. to end a lack of transparency in workplaces. There's also a growing trend to allow employees who have endured some sort of misconduct, especially sexual harassment, to file claims in court and not arbitrate, which are confidential proceedings. So there is this trend that's growing towards allowing more transparency, allowing people to file a lawsuit if there is, in fact, misconduct at work. And so I think that could be some assurance that people, employees can speak out without being subject to the strictures of an arbitration agreement or a confidentiality clause. Again, the National Labor Relations Board's guidance. That is guidance right now. And the court. A federal court or the Supreme Court could certainly, or a new board, for example, could undo that guidance. But right now we do see this shift that is favoring transparency in workplace practices and policies.

[Roberta]: 46:41

to quote Lizzo, it's about damn time. Okay, I had to do it. I had to do it. Sorry, sorry Stella. Ha

[Stella]: 46:50

That's OK. No worries.

[Roberta]: 46:51

ha.

[Stella]: 46:52

OK, so we wanted to take a moment to make this a little more practical for those of you in our audience who haven't really self-advocated much in your life. And it's a sort of on-the-spot self-assessment from an article I found from the Harvard Business Review. The link will be posted on our blog. And it says there are some steps to addressing self-advocacy. So the first is by starting to gain career clarity. So what are you doing? What are you trying to do in your career? And you can do this by, number one, understanding your strengths. And the author had some questions, like in your current role, have you identified a problem and solved it? or come up with an idea that improved operations. Answer what gives you vitality and what drains you, what environments empower you and enables you to do your best work. There's a lot of strength questionnaires out there or strength surveys that help you understand what are you good at. And actually, I'll take a pause to say I took this strength course, where I answered all these questions to learn what are my best strengths. And the biggest message I took home from that, other than learning that my strengths is that you are always more invigorated and energized by your strengths. So you're always gonna procrastinate and kind of push off things that are not your strength. But conversely, if you think throughout your life, all the things that you were like, yeah, I succeeded at this, it's usually around something that you're really strong in anyway. Understanding that is step one into gaining that confidence for self-advocacy. So I thought this was absolutely great. Roberta, did you want to talk about end goals on that article?

[Roberta]: 49:19

Yeah, I mean the article then states to get very specific on your end goals and create a roadmap for yourself. Develop your confidence, find your allies, understand your manager's expectations, and finally prepare for pushback or quote unquote constructive criticism or quote unquote 360 feedback or pick whatever jargon that is. Jessica, do you have any closing thoughts for us?

[Jessica Childress]: 49:46

Sure. So I love these introspective questions. This introspection is so important when determining, is your workplace still working for you? What shifts might need to be made in order to make your workplace one that you'd like to stay in? I think it's not a clear-cut answer as to whether you leave a toxic workplace or stay in a toxic workplace. There are several considerations. that you do have to undergo if you are enduring a toxic workplace. But the first one, the first step is doing that introspection and doing the research. So the research really could start with yourself. Asking these introspective questions. I actually have a checklist and Roberta and Selle, I believe it will be in the show notes. But key considerations, that checklist provides key considerations to undergo if you are thinking about leaving your workplace. So do you like your job? What aspects of joy does your job bring you? Do you like your routine? Who is relying on you? So there are several questions that allow you to undergo this introspective analysis to determine should you stay. So I have an upcoming course, an e-course and an e-book that will be coming out early next year called Peace, Leaving a Toxic Workplace on Your Own Terms. And on your own terms, No, you have to define your terms. You can't do, no one will provide those terms for you, not a lawyer, your own family members. You have to determine what your terms will be. And leaving may not always be the answer. There, you may just need to leave your environment. You may need to go to another department if that's available to you. But the resources in this book will help you undergo these considerations that will provide questions that you should really take seriously and answer carefully and diligently. I also have a free journal that will provide some of the questions that you should think about if you are trying to leave a toxic workplace or if you're starting that analysis about whether you should leave a toxic workplace and that free download will also be in the show notes. But I think that starting with listening to other people's experiences, doing your research, continuing this introspective journey, these are the ways to start learning how to speak up for yourself, because you can't speak up for yourself without adequate and reliable information.

[Stella]: 52:26

And just FYI, if research isn't your strength, too bad. This is one place where you have to do it.

[Roberta]: 52:34

Stella's

[Stella]: 52:34

Ha ha

[Roberta]: 52:34

like,

[Stella]: 52:34

ha.

[Roberta]: 52:35

deal with it. Just,

[Jessica Childress]: 52:38

You

[Roberta]: 52:38

I'm

[Jessica Childress]: 52:38

do-

[Roberta]: 52:38

not a detailed person. Get that way. I mean,

[Stella]: 52:41

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 52:42

just

[Stella]: 52:42

Hey.

[Roberta]: 52:42

research

[Stella]: 52:42

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Roberta]: 52:43

it. That could, this is your life you're talking about. Stella's like, this is the no bullshit zone. Go get it together. What is unclear about the advice that you have been provided today? Deal with it.

[Jessica Childress]: 52:57

It's important to do the research and get help doing the research if research is not your strong suit. So you raise a great point, Stella. I'm a researcher by nature because that's just what we do with lawyers.

[Stella]: 53:08

Yeah.

[Jessica Childress]: 53:08

But I also realized that, you know, access to information and the ability to do strong research and then use that research for advocacy, that's a very difficult skill to master. And so use resources that are available to you. Contact your local bar association if you're seeking a lawyer. There is an organization called NELA, the National Employment Law Association. There are state equivalents to NELA that will help you, that will provide a directory with attorneys who practice employment law on the plaintiff. employee side. So there are resources if you are seeking a lawyer. So please start with doing research, seeking advice from a qualified professional to understand what your rights are and how to navigate within your workplace.

[Roberta]: 54:08

This has been an incredibly enlightening episode. And Jessica, I'm... beyond myself proud to have you on as a guest. And

[Stella]: 54:19

Absolutely.

[Roberta]: 54:19

I really hope we can have you back. And I didn't get a chance to comment on this, but your character's name in your children's book is Jurisprudence. That is brilliant. Can we just stop

[Jessica Childress]: 54:29

Thank

[Roberta]: 54:29

it? That's

[Jessica Childress]: 54:29

you.

[Roberta]: 54:29

brilliant. The lawyers that do listen to us will get that and go, holy cow, yeah, exactly. That's brilliant. Nicely done, ma'am. Nicely

[Jessica Childress]: 54:38

Thank you

[Roberta]: 54:38

done.

[Jessica Childress]: 54:38

so very much. I'm blushing. Jurisprudence is my child. I don't have my

[Roberta]: 54:44

Hahaha!

[Jessica Childress]: 54:44

own children, but Jurisprudence is my child. And I do hope that she does serve as a model for kids to learn how to advocate for themselves. This isn't a Jurisprudence podcast, so I'll

[Roberta]: 54:56

No,

[Jessica Childress]: 54:56

stop

[Roberta]: 54:57

but I

[Jessica Childress]: 54:57

there.

[Roberta]: 54:57

love

[Jessica Childress]: 54:57

Bye.

[Roberta]: 54:57

that. I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to like, I'm like, that is brilliantly named.

[Jessica Childress]: 55:02

Thank you so

[Roberta]: 55:02

We

[Jessica Childress]: 55:03

much.

[Roberta]: 55:03

should share those links too, you know,

[Stella]: 55:04

Yes.

[Roberta]: 55:04

for those of you, cause look, it is almost holiday season. Parents, great way to provide your children with something educational

[Stella]: 55:14

Yes.

[Roberta]: 55:14

and empowering. And again, brilliant jurisprudence.

[Stella]: 55:17

Woop woop.

[Roberta]: 55:18

Like you guys look that up and understand just how brilliant that is. We'll get to that later.

[Jessica Childress]: 55:23

Well,

[Roberta]: 55:23

So.

[Jessica Childress]: 55:23

thank you both. I really am gushing

[Stella]: 55:25

sauce.

[Jessica Childress]: 55:25

over here, but this has really just been a pleasure. Thank you both for having me. I really just enjoy the opportunity to share my insights with you and thank you for the work that you're doing.

[Roberta]: 55:36

You're so welcome and we hope we can have you back. Um, you have been amazing and folks, we have to wrap it up there because we Jessica's got important stuff to do. Like

[Stella]: 55:45

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 55:45

this is important and all. I mean, again, this is the shining light of her career. I know that being on this podcast, like we've,

[Stella]: 55:51

Exactly.

[Roberta]: 55:51

we've already covered that, but I mean, Forbes might want her for some snippet or,

[Stella]: 55:56

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 55:56

you know, Ariana Huffington, so demanding. And then of course there's this whole SCOTUS thing. So I mean, we have

[Stella]: 56:01

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 56:01

to let her get back to doing what she does, but Please keep sending those stories, including those horror stories. Don't forget the stuff that

[Stella]: 56:08

Yes.

[Roberta]: 56:08

is just cray cray, even if it's somebody else's experience. I don't care if it's gossip, if it's good, we're gonna read it as part

[Stella]: 56:15

Yeah.

[Roberta]: 56:15

of our horror stories at work October. Please send those to theteabag at ToxicTeaRoom.com.

[Stella]: 56:22

And as always, please subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagram, and TikTok. You can also support us by supporting our various affiliates and look always on our blogs for additional information.

[Roberta]: 56:38

And we will share this episode and the resources in the show notes. And there's a lot of them. Look, Jessica's being generous with you all. Do not waste this opportunity. And on our blog at toxictearoom.com slash blog. And when you do advocate for yourself, know that you're not standing alone. Until next time, peace.

[Stella]: 56:57

Bye!

[Roberta]: 56:58

Bye.