The Business of College Consulting
The Business of College Consulting
Jess Chermak: The Pivot from Forensic Psychology to Thriving in College Admissions Counseling
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Have you ever felt the thrill of discovering your true passion after taking an unexpected turn in your career path? Jess Shermack of Virtual College Counselors, shares her entrepreneurship journey, emphasizing the pivotal role of support networks and the courage required to transition from a full-time job to the uncertainties of running a start-up. She uncovers the strategic branding and adaptability that have driven the success of her business, even as the pandemic reshaped the educational landscape.
Jess recounts the evolution of her collaboration with Sawyer, where skepticism turned into synergy, and long work hours blossomed into a thriving business relationship. They juggle multiple roles and set boundaries to maintain a healthy work-life balance. This episode peels back the curtain on the real grind of building a startup, complete with the occasional "Shaun of the Dead" quote to keep things in perspective.
Jess shares her experiences with imposter syndrome, the quest for credibility without an Ivy League badge, and the art of setting firm client boundaries. Through her anecdotes, you'll gain invaluable insights into the importance of specializing and building genuine connections. Tune in for an intimate look at the personal and professional growth that comes from following one's passion!
Welcome to the Business of College Consulting podcast. I'm your host, brooke Daly, founder and CEO of Advantage College Planning and Advantage College Planning. Franchising, building and growing a business is not for the faint of heart. In this podcast, you'll hear incredible stories from successful college consultants about growing a thriving business. They'll share the secrets behind their remarkable growth and the trials and triumphs shaping their path to success. Welcome to the Business of College Consulting podcast. I'm your host, Brooke Daly, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Jess Shermack from Virtual College Counselors in Colorado. Jess, thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yes, so can we start with your business name, because it seems like that's a very intentional choice of words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was a very intentional choice. I cannot take credit for it. I will say my business partner secured this domain name, the second the pandemic hit, because he's brilliant. Yeah, my original company was named College Use Consulting, which was fine, it was a kind of explanatory, but the Virtual College Counselors, I think, made it very clear that we have no intention of going back to in person, which has been helpful.
Speaker 1:Yes, that solidified your choice right Now.
Speaker 2:it's your version it really did and I was virtual before because I grew up in California and that's kind of where my connections had been for clients initially, even though I was living in Colorado. So the virtual space was not new to me when the pandemic hit. It was just new more to the clients. So it felt like a very natural shift to kind of rebrand accordingly.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you started? It sounds like you started the business before the pandemic. What year did?
Speaker 2:you start, I guess officially hung the shingle in about 2016, 2017. Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and can you tell me a little bit about your? And I guess I should take a step back and say that a lot of people who listen to the podcast are newer consultants who are just. They want to hear the stories of how you got into business. So do you want to share a little bit about? Did you work full time? What was your transition to full time like operating the business? What did that look like in the earlier years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so, yes, I was working full time. So I actually my background's forensic psychology, so that's what I went to grad school for, and I had a scholarship through the Department of Defense that paid for school. That required me to then work for the Army for a couple of years, and it was while I was working for the Army as an operations research and systems analyst at White Sands Missile Range, which was incredibly irrelevant to any of my interests or like academic pursuits. So that's when I was realizing that I needed to figure out what I was going to actually do with the rest of my life. And it's actually a kind of a funny story. I'll keep it as brief as possible, but I had to go do this thing called ORSA-MAC, which was a operations research and systems analysis military application course over at Army Logistics University in Fort Lee, virginia. So I had to be there for four months as part of my like working for the Army thing, and it was super fun. I had a great time.
Speaker 2:But I tried to take all my books with me and my mom was like you cannot keep traveling with books. So she gave me her old Kindle and she has the habit of like anytime there's a free book. She just like downloads it willy-nilly. So there's just like thousands of books. So I was really overwhelmed and I chose one at random and it happened to be a book that followed an IEC who was helping three different students navigate their college application process. It's kind of about early decision and like a low income student and a higher income student. And I was reading the book and I was like, wait a second, this is it. This is what I want to actually be doing. This is what makes me happy. I had been helping my friends younger siblings for years navigate the college application process because I wanted to put a school that wasn't a great fit for me and I like wanted to transfer and then just decided to stay and graduate a year early instead, and it was like I started essentially doing an actual college search when I was already in college.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that is so a random book on your mom's Kindle.
Speaker 2:I mean out of many thousands random book chosen where, like I, just flip through the pages and click the down button and just like stopped.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do you remember what book it was? I'm so curious.
Speaker 2:I can look it up. I think it was called like, I think it was called early decision and it might have had like a subtitle Wow, yeah, it was great, it was a super inspirational book, right. But yeah, that's when I started kind of like looking into like how do you do this legitimately? Because I this was pre-Bar City Blues and I don't know. There was just something that always had, like I had seen in the news for many years that there were, you know, kind of these like scam kind of company things happening where, like people were getting in through these back doors or side doors or whatever. And I knew that I wanted to like, if I'm going to actually make a huge career shift like this, I needed to do it like in an official capacity, and that's how I kind of stumbled across by UCA.
Speaker 1:So what was your next step, Like what did you do from there?
Speaker 2:Well. So I had this commitment with the army. So I knew that I had a time frame where I had to be in New Mexico and I saved all my vacation time so I could leave early. I knew that my next step was coming back to Colorado because my now husband was still here. I actually had a job lined up with the VA as a statistician and then wound up moving back before that job even started.
Speaker 2:A team that I had worked for when I was in forensic psychology wound up moving to CU Boulder and they were like, hey, this team across the hall is hiring and we'll pull you over whenever we get a chance. You should really consider this gig in the higher education sphere. I was like, okay, yeah, that's great. So I just I didn't love government work. So that was like an easy sell where I got the job and was like great, okay, we're in Boulder anyway, this is a much easier commute. Then I was able, because I was research faculty there I could serve on their scholarship committees.
Speaker 2:So that was my first step into what do I do now, while I was still with the Army. That's when I found IECA. That's when I realized that the path of least resistance because my graduate degree didn't really qualify for membership, that I needed to go to the Summer Training Institute Awesome. So I wound up doing that. After working for a couple of years I was still applying to grad school again. I really thought I still wanted to maybe do that clinical psych PhD. And then I kept getting in deferring and then deferring again, and then they're like you can't defer again forever. Yeah, so it was. I very surprisingly and easily stumbled repeatedly into this career.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. And how tell me about the transition to full time, Like, how did that play out?
Speaker 2:Oh, terrifying. I'm not a risk taker. I like structure, I like planning, I like knowing what's next. I like prediction. Like everything about it is the most terrifying thing ever. It was terrifying to even start this, even though I had a stable full time position, but I so I worked full time for well I guess throughout the Army, and then for the subsequent like three or so years I was still working full time and then I was able to drop my position at CU to a half time position and still keep my benefits, which, like as the planner, I knew that I like really needed that, mostly because my husband is a school psychologist and he gets benefits through his school. But the benefits in higher education were so much better that we didn't want to transition till we really had to. I was paying like $15 a month for the best health insurance in the state of Colorado. Yeah, it's just about to give up. That is. It was tough to give up. I still think about it Like should I go?
Speaker 1:back to part time there, but I think you made a good choice.
Speaker 2:Jess, I did. Yeah, I don't regret it. I'm very grateful that, like my husband had a stable position and like he was the safety net where, like, if I abandon ship and the business somehow didn't work out, like I would have just found another job. So I was very fortunate to go half time, which allowed me the opportunity. That team was really like flexible about working from home and everything and getting pre-pandemic, so this was new and exciting. So I was really only in the office like one or two days a week and the rest of the time I could spend like modifying my hours to meet with students during their lunch or after school and things like that. Good, yeah, it really worked out and it was terrifying.
Speaker 2:And then I was forced into doing this full time, kind of because my half time position, our grant funding for that project I was on, ran out and I knew that when I took the position I knew that it was for a year and that we could keep applying and stuff.
Speaker 2:But like my team still is operating in that space. They're all doing like trauma, informed cognitive behavioral therapy and really cool stuff. Yeah, super cool. I miss them dearly. Like that team energy was great, but they basically were like there isn't really funding and if you want to find funding, we'll keep you if you find funding. But like wow, but they were kind of with me my entire journey. Like I worked for them when I was in grad school and then continued kind of helping with like a bunch of different tasks with their research while I was working for the army, because I needed something to like something that was relevant to something I was interested in. So like it was really helpful to just they were on that journey with me of building my business, like they were there the entire time.
Speaker 2:So they also kind of were like OK, little bird, she was go do it which was great and, like my family and my husband's family and everything were all just incredibly supportive. Both of his parents were educators Awesome. So like, yeah, I stumbled into kind of the perfect scenario and I do recognize that it took some effort and energy, but I also got very lucky at multiple junctures.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I think luck is really where, like, hard work comes in Right, like you think it's luck, but really you were putting the ball in motion completely, yeah.
Speaker 2:But like that ball was on a track, yes, right, I don't know that I saw the track initially, but like there was, definitely there were bumpers up for sure, right, right, which was nice.
Speaker 1:And I think that's that's something that you cannot underestimate as an entrepreneur is having support from the people who love you Right, and I think that if you don't have that, I can't imagine, you know, starting a venture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. It's so interesting talking because I also talk to like a lot of newer ICs who are just kind of getting started and want some of those pointers, and the one piece of advice that I heard that I think holds true for almost everyone I've ever spoken with was it's going to take three to five years. This doesn't happen overnight, like it takes time, energy and effort. But I think most people when they start this, they don't really realize that you're actually wearing two hats and you're working two full time jobs and that's in addition to whatever other full time jobs you have. Like I'm not currently a parent, but that's also a full time job. But like you are business owner full time and you are a college counselor full time and like the like responsibilities don't actually overlap. That is very true.
Speaker 1:Tell me about when you made the transition to full time. What changed for you?
Speaker 2:I realized I didn't like working from home all the time alone, and again pre pandemic. So like when I say alone, I mean like truly, truly alone. I think when I finally abandoned ship and was doing it full time, I realized how terrible I was at actually like protecting my time and setting boundaries Because I desperately just wanted to do everything to make it work. There was a steep learning curve, for Jess, that's for sure. Yeah, early lessons, yeah, very early lessons, but I wound up with more seniors than I really should have been able to handle for a fall only because they all kind of started at the same time and it was around like early action, early decision, deadlines. That was like I abandoned ship at Sea Boulder in like August and went full time, which, yeah, I don't know why I didn't think about the timeline of events in our actual work, but at the time it wasn't super relevant because I wasn't doing it full time and I didn't really know what full time looked like. I just knew that it was going to be scary and I had to just be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:It was a lot of really late nights. It was a lot of my husband making every meal, a lot of trying to figure out what I should do with my daytime time. That was relevant and helpful for the work that I was trying to do with students. I just had a lot to learn. I was reading the FIS guide and listening to webinars, which there weren't as many webinars. There weren't virtual visits. This was all pre-pandemic. Things are so much easier now to build that knowledge base quicker.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. There are so many places that you can get those types of professional development opportunities now that were not available before the pandemic. You mentioned that you, of course, you have ties to California and you were working with California students. How did you make the transition? Or did you into working with Colorado students, or is your client based still California? What does that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question. Again, luck, pure luck.
Speaker 1:My husband and I well, some of it is my husband and I.
Speaker 2:We got married in 2016 and started House something pretty soon thereafter. We bought a buying our house in 2017, like May of 2017. The family we bought our house from we became good friends with, which is very strange and doesn't happen to anybody Not at all. It was a very I love them so much, but there's three kids. The oldest was navigating high school and was going to be starting that process in a year or two. We just had so much in common with them. They love climbing and theater. That is us. For whatever reason, we got lucky that we connected with this family, who then chose us to sell their house to, and we're still friends with them. I've helped all their kids navigate the process and they are both educators and incredible humans. They have a lot of friends who are also incredible humans. I really do believe that a lot of it is just luck that they happen to be the people that we bought this house from. We happen to, for whatever reason, connect, which doesn't happen when you buy a house. They're just such good people that they just surround themselves with such good people.
Speaker 2:Our referral, my initial client funnel started from my cousins and my husband's cousins in California, and then their friends and synagogue friends and all of that At the same time it was happening in Colorado with their friends, the people that we had met, and then their friends and their siblings and all of that. Yeah, kind of some luck. Then when the pandemic did hit and everything kind of morphed into virtual very quickly I was already in that space. I think it was easy for me to engage meaningfully in ways like in our professional sphere that I hadn't felt comfortable doing previously because I still had like pretty serious imposter syndrome that apparently never goes away.
Speaker 2:I think that transition, the fact that the pandemic hit and everything went virtual and I had already been doing that, I kind of became more comfortable and confident being that leader. We now work with students around the globe. We've got a student in Hong Kong and New Zealand and it's mostly US-based but we're kind of everywhere now and a lot of that resulted from the clients that we've worked with who had friends and family elsewhere, but then also a lot of colleague referrals. The pockets that we have around the country are really from colleagues who didn't have space for more students or knew that we'd be a good fit for a family.
Speaker 1:That's awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that wouldn't have happened so seamlessly if it hadn't been for that sneaky pandemic.
Speaker 1:Yes, that sneaky pandemic. Can I just go back to your point about? Oh, it's luck, you don't get professional referrals from luck you wouldn't have gotten that. The people who you bought your house from you wouldn't have gotten them as a client if you were not just right, right, right, it is a stepping stone, though Luck is a stepping stone.
Speaker 2:I think it's like a little boost.
Speaker 1:I just want you to give yourself credit. Your success is not based on luck.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I appreciate that yeah.
Speaker 1:Tell me, obviously you work now full-time with Sawyer, Is that right? Yeah, yeah, Started by saying obviously. It is not obvious. Now you work full-time with your husband. Tell me about that dream, Not husband.
Speaker 2:Just business partner. Just business partner. Yeah, well, best friend too. But, like you know, I love that.
Speaker 2:We actually, sawyer and I met at the beginning of the pandemic. We had both yeah, so I was actually exhausted working alone from home alone pre-pandemic that I started applying to jobs in the fall of 2019. So I was thinking of, like, maybe transitioning over to the high school side. I was thinking of joining like a larger company. That was like hiring for things. So I wound up interviewing for this educational startup that never started up. It actually fumbled very quickly. I lasted 15 days there before abandoning ship. Sawyer was the director of operations and innovation there and he had only been there for, like I think, maybe a month and a half longer than me, maybe less and he left the day after I did and I just kind of pulled him on as attending in 1099 to my company and we were just like we're going to have to make this work Awesome. Yeah, and we did Like that first year was like all right, now there's two of us that need financial support.
Speaker 2:So it is what it is, let's do it. And it worked out very, very well. That that wow, that we kind of stumbled through. It was kind of a very traumatic experience with that organization. So, fortunate Again, like kind of lucky, like I know personality wise, like that is beneficial, but like, yes, stumbled into having this incredible business partner who compliments my skill sets incredibly, like the. When I was operating alone in that transition from part time to full time, I didn't have this like mental space to figure out websites and like writing blogs and I was just focused on like where can I get clients and how can I learn more to be more efficient, right, right. So I was just, I was just counselor, and then I had to put on that like business hat and that hat didn't really fit.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I have to pause there because I think talk about that transition of bringing on a business partner. How long did you know, Sawyer, and how did you know that he was going to be such a good compliment to you? Like that is hugely risky. Right Like you're essentially bringing on a partner is like it is like a marriage. Right, Like you, yeah. So talk to me about how that decision even came about.
Speaker 2:I feel like there wasn't even a choice to be, like there wasn't even a decision. There was. No, I didn't give it thought. That's how right it felt. Like, yeah, like I knew him for maybe two weeks you eloped, yeah, yeah, but like what's crazy one, like I knew that my business was fine and sustainable. I mean, I hoped it was sustainable. I don't think I ever know or feel that it will be long-term, like who knows, but like, in as much as you can predict the future, I felt that, like I had this, it was fine. And the crazier part is that he trusted me, right. Right, because, like I knew what I was doing, I had already built a company, I had already done this, I had already gone through cycles, and he came from admissions and like technology and like a completely different background than I have, right, and he's the one who trusted me. He was like, yeah, my life's in your hands now.
Speaker 1:Aw, well, and especially coming off of that experience for him after that company, yeah, so I yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. It was a leap of faith that, like we both had to be as cautious and also as like trusting as possible, which is ironic because, like neither of us are very trusting people in general Like we're very much like more like reserved and skeptical it just really worked and, truthfully, it's because of the experience we had trying to start this company from scratch, the startup that we worked for. We were literally building from the ground up it, like we didn't even have clients through the company. We were building the foundation of it at the time and he had such a different background to be able to do that and, like what I brought to the table was so different that like it really was initially complimentary.
Speaker 2:But I will say so, he was my second interview for the position. Like I talked to the CEO first and then I had to talk to him and within like three to five minutes he was quoting Sean of the Dead and I was finishing the quote and it was one of those like stepbrothers moments where it was like did we just become best friends? Oh, that's so cute. I love it. It was trauma bonding. It was like it was like you know, 12 hour work days and just like it was so much trying to like build this thing from the ground up and we were so energized and we had such an incredible team and it's so crazy because we're still friends with most of them Like we're still in touch with a huge number of the startup team from the startup that never started.
Speaker 1:That never started. That's incredible. Yeah, wow, interesting. Ok, yeah, so tell me about your team today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's still just the two of us. Every year, when we get overwhelmed, we're like, oh, we need to hire. And then we're like, do we though? Yeah, because we're terrified. We're, we're very terrified of change. That's like my personality and I try to embrace change, but, like I need to know that I'm actually ready and I haven't reached that point yet.
Speaker 2:But right now we we essentially divvy up the roles based on our strengths and then we each have to take on some roles that neither of us really wanted. So, like, neither of us like social media, so Sawyer's taken one for the team with that one, and then, like, neither of us really loves the idea of, like, running payroll or keeping track of expenses, so I take care of that. But everything else is pretty balanced, based on, like, our interests and our skill sets. He's very much the tech side of things. Like he does all the tech stuff with our newsletter and our website and like pretty much everything. The only tech stuff that I can really deal with is like Google Docs and Calimbi, which is great. I'm good at this and then, like I do, we both work on that content creation. We split up our students pretty evenly. We have two high school partnerships. So I'm the primary counselor for the one that's in California and then he's kind of like the primary point of contact for one in Colorado and then I work with grad students and he doesn't like grad applicants, so sometimes he'll take on more of the undergrad applicants than I do, because we'll like balance our caseload accordingly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's always just felt very much like a give and take and I will say having another person is so nice for a million reasons, like not just getting the stuff done and having like the mental capacity to even like work on things to grow a business, but like even just having someone to bounce ideas off of or have like please read this email to make sure that I don't sound like too snarky or, yes, like how do we deal with this crazy situation we wound up in?
Speaker 2:And it's just so nice to have someone who is as invested in a business where it's like he's not an employee. We are business partners. This is like a 50-50 partnership and I think that's the big difference and that's, I think, also why we're a little scared of hiring and growing in that way, even though we know we have to eventually, because we just we've trusted each other so implicitly and it felt so easy and it's. I mean, we're like almost four years in now and it still feels really great and easy. It was so perfect and we're not going to find that again.
Speaker 1:You know what Can I just tell you? You may yes, that's what I needed to hear. Yes, I was 10 years into my business before I hired and I was very, very picky about who I hired. But that first hire reminds me of you and Sawyer. We are just almost everything on the same wavelength. But I also think we do challenge each other in certain ways.
Speaker 1:She's certainly not a yes-sayer. It's not like, oh, yes, I'll do whatever you say. It's like she challenges me and I think I challenge her. And then, once she was full with clients, I was like, okay, I think we have to do this again. And then that person got full. We have to do this again. And I will tell you, there's magic in growing a team of people who love working together. There is hope, I will tell you. I feel like our team is proof that you can build something where it's like the only word I can think of is magic, because we have shared well, and I will say I think a lot of it is. We have shared core values. Yeah, and that's really important and I'm sure you and Sawyer could probably articulate those. Here's what we think is really most important in the work that we do and even like work-life balance and things like that, and when you find people who have those shared values, it's just incredible what you can do.
Speaker 2:It really does make a difference. I mean, I've learned so much from Sawyer and working with Sawyer about setting boundaries and protecting my time All the things that I was really not great at and they're still always room for growth. So he's the one who is constantly bringing me back down to earth and reminding me that I don't need to work late into the evening. This is our company. I can make the choice to write a blog or not write a blog. It's always been very helpful and encouraging and, yeah, I think, the idea of being able to challenge each other, even just in how do we explain something to somebody else. I know we're on the same page, but that doesn't mean other people understand the way that I'm talking about it. So just navigating language around, contract things and stuff.
Speaker 2:And when we first partnered together, he was very helpful in encouraging we should have a partnership agreement. We need to be able to foresee any issues in the future and we want to plan for them. So we went through the worst case scenario situations that might arise to then address how would we handle these things. And that was really helpful because it seems and still does seem so far fetched that we'll reach that point, just because we're good at communicating and we're still constantly learning and getting better at communicating, but there's still a constant communication. But he also thought it was really important to do the coaching statement and we each wrote our own mission statement of what we wanted, which we already knew, that our pillars and values aligned and that really kind of it helps kind of just articulate how well they aligned and that was really helpful.
Speaker 2:But values, I think, is the we are our company. I think all of us we are our company and values-based branding is the only branding that really exists for something like this and we value so much honesty, transparency and authenticity that it's actually like those words are in our logo. Yes, I noticed that. Yeah, so cool. That's a Sawyer thing. We give him 100% credit. He created that logo.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. I am so excited that I now have a very good example of a partnership that is successful. I unfortunately have many scenarios or examples of when they don't work out so well, so you have given me the confidence that this can work for other IECs, and I'm sure other people are going to appreciate this too, jess. So thank you. Thank you, yeah, can you talk a little bit? One thing we were chatting about before we hit record is you started the business when you were younger. Can you talk about some of the challenges that go along with starting this type of business when you're younger?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's some what I would probably do like fairly obvious challenges. Like I mean I was in my early 20s and I had gone through the undergrad application process, a transfer application process and then a graduate school application process, so like I had some experience, but like I was not an expert, that's for sure. Like you can't just become an expert overnight, right, and I think I don't know that I had like too much pushback from clients all the time, but it definitely did come up a few times that like like one of the first paying clients was very needy and just like kept wanting to talk on the phone before signing the contract and I was just giving everything because I really just wanted a paying client. And then a wonderful mentor Joan Coven it was Joan. She was like you know, you probably don't want this client and I was like, but I do right.
Speaker 2:I need money and she was like no, you don't. And I listened to her advice and I actually like turned that client away after spending hours with them and best for us ever made, because I probably would have abandoned this job very early on. But I think I think my age was probably some of why they felt I felt like it was easier for them to take advantage of me and I wasn't very good at like setting those boundaries. Like when I was doing free consultations, I said it would be 30 minutes and like if they had a bunch of questions I'd do my best to answer all of them, and sometimes it'd be an hour and a half and at the time I was like, well, this is, this is what I need to do.
Speaker 2:And now I'm realizing like maybe I didn't need to, like I think that was foundational for me, like talking through some things was helpful for me and my growth too. But like right, definitely better about that now, as much as I can be. So that was one thing where it was like I think people would like hire me as an expert and then question my expertise and that still happens. But I think that happens in talking to so many other colleagues, like it seems like it happens to everyone. Now I'm not really sure that that's related to the age.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember when I first started I don't I don't think I had a client yet and I was working with a business coach because I was, you know, in my late twenties, so I was fairly young and I remember him saying you know, 10% of your clients will take up 90% of your time, which we've all heard, that right. And I remember thinking like I don't care, like do you have a pulse and are you willing to pay me because I will take you on as a client? And that's one of those things that you do learn early on. Like Joan gave you the best advice, like don't do it, because you will pay for that, not only with that client, but heaven forbid that they refer you to someone else who is like them, right, and then it fluctuates the client who you don't really want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's why, like, I'm so grateful that the people we bought our house from are such incredible people that everyone they know and like care about are also incredible people. So it was just like it's always been so easy that, like, we now have this like snowball effect of referrals, which is how referral, like client funnels kind of work. Right, but they're all such incredible people because they started from incredible people.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I totally believe that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, In terms of like the other age things, I think it was a little bit more difficult at the beginning to differentiate between me as a professional and like the students who hang the shingle because they're like, well, I got into Stanford, Now I can help you. It was a lot of. I felt like I needed to justify the decisions that I've made because I chose not to go to the Ivy League institutions and like I made these active decisions and that was part of my journey, of why I like enjoy this work and how I work with students and why building that like balance list of good fit colleges is important, Like it's so integral to like who I am as a counselor. But I think it was. It felt problematic when I was at the beginning because I was young and needed to differentiate and couldn't really figure out how Did that make?
Speaker 1:sense, yes, yes, exactly no, and I think, yeah, yeah, that is a challenge because you're age, you're right, there is that group who, yeah, goes to the IVs and then starts, I think and I completely understand your feeling of needing to justify, like even being an IUC or like, no, I really, like I'm really interested in this, or I have, you know, I went to STI and I am an IUCA member and so you want to share all of the things.
Speaker 1:I think that when we talk about an ideal client, especially in those early years, like I remember those parents who drilled me and were, like do you have references? Like can I call other clients? And I just remember feeling so terrible about that, like I'm like they clearly don't trust me, like why are they even thinking about hiring me? But then you have the clients who don't even look at your resume, so to speak, or your experience or where you went to school, and they're like I just trust you and I know you're going to do a great job with my student and we want to hire you. And those are the people, of course, that become your loyal clients, who refer you, who you know. Just it feels right from the start, versus this like hard sell and then you feel like icky about it.
Speaker 2:Completely yeah, like I learned very early on that fit with the counselors as important as fit with a school, and like it goes both ways like fit with the counselors, as important as like fit with a client.
Speaker 2:And like we can tell in our consultations like if the family is like, laughing and having a good time, then we feel pretty good, and if they're not, and we're the ones that just like apparently just look like goons because we're having a good time, like that's not going to be a good fit. We're not the serious counselors, we're not going to place too much emphasis on getting acceptance letters, like that's part of this process. But like our approach is the personal growth journey approach, like this is this is way beyond college applications. This is making sure they're ready to be successful in college. Right, and I think most of our colleagues are on that same page, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think there was like a mentality shift for me where, like in my first years, I was definitely more concerned like are they going to get into the colleges they're applying to? Am I recommending the right colleges or enough colleges? And like there's so many second guessing, there's so much second guessing, but yeah, and then like joining the professional organizations. It's so funny because you're right. Like at the beginning I feel like people asked me more about my qualifications and now that I'm in my early 30s, people aren't asking as much, which is fine, but now I want them to ask because I think, like having being a certified educational planner should be meaningful and being a professional member of an organization should be meaningful, but in reality at the moment it's really only meaningful within our professional sphere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a really weird shift, like I really want to. Occasionally we'll have a parent who's like what questions should I be asking? And we'll be like these are the ones and I love when they ask that, so that we can say, like there are people who are fabulous, who you haven't met yet, but you can find them in these directories. Like I think something has to shift in a much bigger picture for that to kind of be more meaningful. But, like, being a young person in the professional organizations has also been interesting.
Speaker 1:Yes, a challenge maybe. At times or yeah, I shouldn't say challenge I remember feeling like, oh, everyone here has way more experience than I do I had. It gave me serious imposter syndrome walking into my first conference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was weird because, like I knew that I was trying to do this full time and as like a full time professional, whereas most people I was meeting, especially in the early years, they were already adults, they already had careers, they already had like a roof over their heads and like a stable savings account and like all sorts of things, were like they could be more risk takers and do this part time or like whatever that looked like.
Speaker 2:And, yes, and it's just I, it took a while for me to even like meet you and other colleagues who are doing this full time and are growing in different ways and like I think the definitely seeing everyone and how good everyone is at so many things that, like I I'm never going to do athletic recruitment or like help with portfolios and like there's things that I just not my jam. There's people who do them and I love that and we love partnering and referring out. But I think initially I felt like I had to be good at everything and it was weird to be such a young person and feeling that imposter syndrome so strongly for so many years when other professionals in the field were referring to me as the expert and I didn't see myself that way, like I think that was, the biggest barrier was that, like IECA leadership told me, I was an expert Before I figured that out on my own. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I love that that happened and I'm glad that that's. That was your takeaway from association leadership. That's important yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great. It was like everyone wants to hear from the young people because we are and this is air quotes, you know are somehow better at technology. That's not me, I am not the one that's better at technology, or like that. Like it's that young perspective, I will say being young has been super helpful in a lot of ways, though. Like sure, there's barriers, but there's barriers at any age with anything Correct, great. But like being young, our students connect with us so quickly and easily. We are not so far removed from high school that we don't remember things. Like we're not so far removed from high school that, like we had cell phone access in high school, right, which is different than like some of our colleagues who are even just like five to ten years older. Yes, like we had smartphones came out. Like iPhone came out in 2007. Youtube 2005 I was in high school 2004 2008. Yep, like the advent of technology at the time, yep. So I think that that is like probably the most helpful piece is like and that's so important.
Speaker 1:I mean being able to connect with your students. Connection is one of our core values, actually. So being able to connect and, as we get older, like, how do we remain relevant and keep connecting? And it's possible, but it takes work too.
Speaker 2:So we like genuinely care about our students.
Speaker 2:I think this can be said for pretty much all IECs, or most IECs Like we care about our students, we we care about their well-being, their personal growth.
Speaker 2:We care about their success, but not so much to like oh I got into Harvard or oh I didn't get into Harvard, but it's the like, genuine success of like I feel like I learned about myself in writing this essay. I feel like I'm now a better right, like there's just so many things that they I love when they text me and they're like I'm having a really hard day. There's all this friend drama and I know we have our meeting, but like I'm not in a great headspace and my response is like do you want to meet for five minutes and you can just see my puppy and then we can just like call it a day and like I've never had a student say no right to just like wanting to connect. Like we've made efforts to make sure that our meetings with students feel natural and comfortable and beneficial and productive and not like a doctor's appointment oh, I like a chore. We don't want it to feel like a chore A chore 20, 24 goals right there.
Speaker 1:Don't make your meetings feel like a chore.
Speaker 2:And if they feel like a chore for you, they definitely feel like a chore for your students.
Speaker 1:Totally. Oh, I'm going to share this with my team. Love that, jess. So I know we are over time. I feel like I could talk to you all day Agreed. This is so fun. Thank you, jess, so much for sharing your story and everything that goes along with it and your wisdom that you learned along the way. It was such a pleasure having you. Thank you, it was a pleasure to be here. Thank you for listening to this episode of the business of college consulting. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. If you did enjoy it, please leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify or share it with a friend in the college consulting industry. I'll see you next week on our new episode and in the meantime, take care.