The Business of College Consulting
The Business of College Consulting
Beyond Referrals: How Mark Stucker Built a National College Consulting Practice
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In this episode, Brooke talks with Mark Stucker about the long game of building a college consulting practice, from his admissions background to growing School Match for You into a national model and how his podcast, Your College Bound Kid, contributes to his business growth. We dig into what really scales, what failed expensively (including his $100k mistake), and how trust-based marketing (like podcasting!) can become a serious client engine. They discuss:
• Mark’s path from admissions work to independent college consulting
• The part-time to full-time transition and how he planned financially
• Why “full-time caseload” depends on service scope and staffing
• Delegating essays to a writing team to increase capacity
• Building a contractor bench for niche student needs
• A $100,000 product bet that backfired and the lessons it taught
• How consistent podcasting turns listeners into ideal-fit clients
• Referral strategy and “turn clients into walking billboards”
• Presentations and community workshops as practical content marketing
• The hardest challenges: parent boundaries, team energy, pricing perceptions
If you did enjoy it, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share it with a friend in the college consulting industry!
Welcome And Meet Mark Stucker
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Business of College Consulting Podcast. I'm your host, Brooke Daly, founder and CEO of Advantaged College Planning and Advantaged College Planning Franchising. Building and growing a business is not for the faint of heart. In this podcast, you'll hear incredible stories from successful college consultants about growing a thriving business. They'll share the secrets behind their remarkable growth and the trials and triumphs shaping their path to success. Welcome to the business of college consulting. I'm your host, Brooke Daly, and I have the distinct pleasure today of welcoming Mark Stucker on the podcast. For some of you, you may know the Your College Bound Kid Podcast, who Mark is a host of. I was just telling Mark before we got started that clearly I've been living under a rock. And about a year ago, I did discover his podcast. And I am a, you know, listener every Monday and Thursday when he releases episodes. Although now I think the podcast is moving to a more frequent cadence, even. So I'm super excited. I can't get enough of it. So if you're a new consultant, please, the next thing you should do after listening to this podcast is go ahead and subscribe to your college bound kid. You won't regret it. Mark has the most fabulous guests. You'll align with his philosophy, just everything about it is pretty amazing. In addition to that, of course, before Mark started the podcast, he is also the owner of School Match for You. Mark, I just want to take a pause and say welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. Super excited to have you
Going Daily With YouTube
SPEAKER_00on.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. And you know, you were talking about increased frequency. Literally, yesterday we launched our YouTube channel. So we went to a daily. We've gone to a hey, perfect last name, daily, right? We've gone to a daily. So the other five days when we're not doing the Audible podcast, we have mostly short form videos, like 10 to 18 minutes, and then once every six times it's like a deep dive. So yeah, if you really need a fix, you can have all the visuals and all of that on you. It's just your college bound kid podcast on YouTube.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, you know I will be there. That's amazing. Thank you. And good for you for going video. Like that's a whole different animal. So congratulations.
SPEAKER_02Awesome.
From Admissions To School Match
SPEAKER_00So, uh, Mark, tell me a little bit about your journey into college consulting. How did School Match for You come to be?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm gonna take you all the way way back. I did a year of college admissions in 1991 in Texas, and I didn't like it. This is why I'm sympathetic with people in terms of how hard it is to figure out what you really want to do, because I was like an incredibly underfunded. In fact, it actually closed when I was there. That's how underfunded it was. So I didn't even necessarily know that would be like my calling, but both my parents are educators and my sister and my grandmother. So I think that's just, you know, some families are doctors, and like that's kind of what our family does. And so 10 years later, I'm now living in Pennsylvania, and I accepted a position at the Westtown School. So I was associate director of admissions. So I traveled all around the world recruiting. I was like chair of the admissions committee for five years, and I was responsible for a recruitment strategy, file reading. And at the same time, I was also an adjunct college counselor and the college counseling staff. So the combination of doing those two for eight years was really kind of the basis still for me for what I do now and how I understand how admissions works. And so then in 2009, I took a position in Atlanta, Kip Metro Schools. It's the nation's largest charter school network. Initially, I was the director of high school placement, but very quickly I moved to director of college counseling. And it was in this role that parents started approaching me and asking me if I could help like their fraternity brothers, their biological brothers, and all that. And so I had to ask for permission. It became this really big ordeal. There was a huge debate within the administration whether they should allow me to do it, but eventually I would, it was approved as long as I did it in weekends and evenings. The interesting thing is like almost all of those administrators, like I was working with them, you know, like all the principals and all the leaders, they were all hiring me. So it, but that just grew. It just grew and grew and grew. It was slow at first for lots of reasons. Once one, because I made a lot of mistakes, which we can get into, but also because my time was limited. Like I had a full-time job. And then my youngest daughter, I have two, you know, girls, 30 and 27. They're both in the research triangle. My 27-year-old was a very high-level athlete. So she was playing on like nationally ranked teams. And like my arrangement with my wife is like, you can do that, but that's on you. So I was the one taking to all the practices, traveling, a lot of travel, like Chicago, New Orleans, Raleigh, all over the place. Yeah. Cincinnati. So it was just hard. So initially it was more like I'd say six to 12 clients a year for probably like the first seven years, maybe. And then I had a lot more time when my youngest went off to college. And now I had empty nest syndrome. And all of a sudden, I had like that extra 30 hours. I could really grow it. And so, yeah, so that's kind of just, and then just re just referrals from the families that you work with as I started doing it. Really wasn't much no advertising. I mean, I would speak, I would do speaking engagements. I'd speak in front of schools or fraternity sororities, churches, different, I would speak a lot, and that generated some business, but most of it was referrals from the families I was working with.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah. So tell me about the transition from part-time to full-time. Like how did you know you wanted to do this full-time? Especially because you're, I mean, you were well, your girls were older.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's a big transition.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I always knew that I wanted to do it full-time because I loved my 14 years at KIPP, but still, you know, sometimes you go in the office, which is 25 minutes. And toward the last four years was nice because I got to work from home. But, you know, I still with what I do now, I always say to people, I get to work when I want, where I want, with whom I want. And so that extra freedom. So it had all the things I liked about my other job, but some other things as well. It was just a matter of, you know, convincing my wife that, you know, there's not going to be a steady paycheck. So, so one of the things I did in the last few years was just like built the savings up so that you know you had this nice, nice chunk there so that she was on board. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that makes sense. And how many years ago did you transition to full-time?
SPEAKER_0322. So just been four, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's yeah, it's been a while, but it was a long run doing both of them. Like from 2010 to 2022, I did both jobs simultaneously. And I'd say it was like full, it was like full time, full time for the last five. But it was, you know, but I've always been high energy. And for those of you who have kids, like I mean, younger kids, like you have no idea how much time you get when you get emptiness syndrome. Like there's just hours and hours and hours that are available that you almost can't conceptualize until you experience it.
SPEAKER_00Right. I believe that.
SPEAKER_03And I love it. So it was fun for me. You know how it is. When you love it, you don't really feel like you're working. You don't mind working seven days a week and putting along hours because you're having fun.
SPEAKER_00Correct. Oh, I so feel that. Yeah, I love it. So tell me about your caseload.
Moving From Part Time To Full Time
SPEAKER_00Like for a newer consultant who's thinking, like, what is full time? Like a lot of people ask that question, right? And I think this totally depends on your energy level, your personality. Like, even like, are you super type A? Is this going to put you over the edge? Because it can at times, right? So tell me a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_03That's a hard one to answer for lots of reasons. You know, one, we have like a range of different plans, and we do take single session clients as well. But then we have a range of different plans. So some are really comprehensive, and some of them might be like you get 15 meetings, and then some of them we might just list build, and then we will take single session clients. And then, especially now, like I have a whole entire writing team. So I don't do any of that, which is very time consuming, right? So, like my role now is like I'm the I'm the list builder, which I love doing. You know, I answer all the questions that families have. And then I'm sort of like the strategist on everything, other than the writing piece. We have a writing team. And so I can see a lot more people than when I was doing all of that. So I think it's just very personal. Like, you know, I don't think you can say to like take 20 people or whatever, that's full time. I think it, like you said, part of it is your energy level, part of it is your staff, part of it is the number of hours you want to work, you know, part of it is how comprehensive your plans are, you know, as well. So there's a, I just think that's so customized and individual.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. Love that. Um, so tell me more about the process. Like, I love that you have a writing team. And this is something I think that's underrated, especially because when you think about increasing your capacity, one of the best ways to do it is to offload the essay work. However, a lot of consultants are like, but how can I give that up? That's such a big part of my job. Like, tell me in your process how you've been able to make that work effectively.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, and I think it depends on like I think you always have to play to your strength and to your your part of the job that you like the most as well. So I really like all the work, but I would say the writing would be my least favorite of all of the things. And some of that is because of like moms wanting to meddle and come in and say, can you change this? Like that part, it you know, that part just kind of grinds my ears a little bit. Yeah. So I have like a writing content specialist that all she does is content. And she's really good because she's also extremely experienced. Like she has extensive admissions experience at multiple places for a long time and extensive college counseling experience. So she just brings a wealth, like even when because we're one thing, our like we're very national. Like in a given year, we'll we'll work with kids from 30 to 35 states in our caseload. So so that background is helpful because she like knows all those schools, either from reading, reading them when she was on the admission side, and she has worked with all of these essays before. So she's unbelievable. I do have two different people that sort of do grammar syntax spelling, punctuation, consistent use of tenses. And so yeah, so so Jay will do that first review, and then once it's they everybody agrees the content's great, then she passes it off normally to Margarita, but I have Lolly there as well to come in if we need somebody else if things get tight. You know, it does it really does help you scale a lot if you want to scale is having that. Like I was I was stuck, like I ran out of time to be able to scale anymore without until I went to this mod this model. I do like this model. At least it works for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you do the brainstorming portion with the students, or is that also something that the Yeah, Jay does that too.
SPEAKER_03The I mean, so she does the brainstorming on selecting the personal statement topic. Like you're talking about brainstorming. Of course, we have a really comprehensive questionnaire, 170 questions, 120 for students, 50 for parents, that we use for lists building. And then so much you learn about the student and the family. And it pretty much has every imaginable question that I've learned makes a difference to a family at what type of school they may want. And sometimes we're asking different questions different ways just to suss out different things. And so, like, yeah, I'm that I'm that's my bailiwick. I'm kind of over all of that. It's amazing. But the brainstorming for the personal statement, yeah, that's all on that's all. I mean, I I've written it because I devised it originally. I was doing it, and I've of course gotten feedback from the writing team about tweaks. But yeah, that's just about how we do it.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. I love that. That's and it's like you said, it's probably one of the easiest, best ways to scale as a single like IEC, if you don't want to grow a team too. Tell me more about your team composition.
Scaling With A Writing Team
SPEAKER_00Like, do you have any other staff members or any other consultants?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so we have we've moved to model which works for us, which is we have a lot of niche people that can do niche specialty things. Cool. And they're contractors, and and so they're available when you need them. So I have an international specialist who that's all that they do. They don't do anything other than international, they know it extremely well, and so they've got that niche there, right? I have someone who can do summer programs and summer program planning. Um, I have somebody else that's if somebody has like, what's the ADD, ADHD, or they just really need a lot of check-ins. I have someone that can provide that check-in piece on a more regular basis than I do. I mean, people are still gonna want that from me to a certain extent. But if it's a light touch, I can do it. But I have someone, if somebody really needs a lot of structure, can do that. We use the highlands ability battery test, which is like the gold standard, I feel, at looking at your affinities and how they line up with different careers and jobs and stuff. So I like have a high lensability, actually, two people that do that. And then there are some things that I still will refer out, because like we don't have anybody that does like architectural portfolios or like service academies. And so there's still some things that I will serve out, you know, I just will feel not comfortable with that piece. Um, I I've done tons of athletic recruitment, so I handle that. We have subject tutoring in some subjects. We're not a tutoring company. Yeah, it's really my daughter, like that's her, she has a tutoring company. Of course, yeah. So it's Spanish math, it's just Spanish math and French is just what we have. But I we can do that internally, and then I can refer out if somebody needs like physics or cameras or some other subject. And so, yeah. So, and I mean it's just about listening to the needs of your people and letting them tell you, you know, what their needs are. And then when you hear something enough, you know, you say to yourself, okay, either do we have that skill set within our team or can we staff it?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And that those so the things I'm telling you are just the things that families have told us over the years. They they value and prize and they're and they ask us for. As far as test prep, you know, we have our partnerships, right? We don't do that, but we have like three companies that we refer around and they give special, they do give special incentives to our clients. Like we don't get a penny, but it's a nice value add. Like one of them gives four or free hours and another gives 93 minutes. And so we have and then we have them at somewhat different price points too. So some of those things I kind of look for partners that we can sort of add in in different capacities. I feel like I'm forgetting something, but I also feel like I've mentioned the main ones, you know.
SPEAKER_00Ah, that's great. That's great.
SPEAKER_03That's great.
SPEAKER_00So you are the main college consultant, though. Like you don't have any other full-time consultants who are working with other students, like you're the guy.
SPEAKER_03No, so there are three of us that have caseloads. Oh, gosh. You know, that have their own caseloads. Yeah, three of us all together that have their own caseloads. Very cool. So yeah. And the main one, but the others also have their own caseloads and they're building them up nicely. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00I love that. So uh I don't remember if it was before I hit record, but you had mentioned something about making mistakes at the beginning. Like circle back to that. Let's talk about that.
The $100,000 Product Lesson
SPEAKER_03The biggest mistake I made, and it was in 2012. So I hadn't really been it, you know, I started in 2010. And so I kind of had this mindset that what would be great would be if I could offer services at a greatly reduced rate and have passive income. And so the whole idea was to go in the direction of building products and and seeing products as my primary thing and then count consulting as my secondary. So in 2012, I I put together this 10-hour, it was like a counselor in a package, it was very comprehensive. Came with a 180-page workbook, and it was it was a film crew because it was it was like video. Yeah, I spent $100,000 in 2012. It was a lot. And then that was right at the time, and it took from 2012 to 2014, it was 14 months to produce and develop it. And I would do everything in bulk, right? Like some of my marketing materials. I'm like, yeah, give me 25,000 because, like, you know, you get such a discount when you buy and when you do that. And then it wasn't long, and I started going when going on a little bit of travel speaking tour about this. And then people would say, It's great that you have this 10 hours in a box, but like I want to talk to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I want to work with you.
SPEAKER_03And I was thinking, yeah, but it's like a tenth of the price, you know, initially. But so I underestimated that that people want to work with you. I also I made this right at the time when Apple got rid of DVD players in their laptops, because this was all on DVD. And so it was right at the time. So that was another thing. And then uh quite honestly, I underestimated how many changes were going to occur. And then do I go back and like re-edit? Like if it was streaming, it would have been easier to do that. Right. And so, yeah, so a hundred thousand dollar investment, and my total income from everything was $37,000. So I lost $63,000. Yeah. And and also those were loans, too. So it wasn't like that was just tapping in the cash. So that was a really big mistake. You know, that was the biggest one. That was the biggest one. Yeah, you know, yep.
SPEAKER_00That's a big one. Yeah, but you know, I mean, the thing is like kudos to you. Like, if we never try anything, you're not gonna get anywhere, right? Like we learn from those things and you keep moving and you can't dwell on it. I mean, we have some business investments that we've made that we're like, yep, would have done that differently and around the same amounts. And I'm like, yeah, I wish I could have that time back and that money back. But then I wouldn't know what I didn't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was a great growth experience. And you know, one of the things I saw I learned from that is that you really do have to sort of build up your database and your contacts because it was a it was a real and then I by the way, I didn't stop there. I developed two other products after that. Another one I lost money on. Only the only the third one was the only one that worked for me. You know, so what was it?
SPEAKER_00What was that third one?
SPEAKER_03Well, I wrote a book. It's uh I wrote a book, yeah. I have it. I have it 171 answers, the most asked college admissions questions, self-published on Amazon. And so that one, you don't make a ton of money off of that, but I made more than I invested. I think I I think my total cost for that was like 12,000, all in everything, like hiring out and all that. And so we've had more than that come in than that. And but people will hire you off of that too. Like I've had people hire me just off the book. So that was a plus.
SPEAKER_00I believe it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and that's a big I mean, Mark, also give yourself credit for the time it took to write that book. That book is like four inches thick.
SPEAKER_03It's it is thick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because we had a story for every single so for our listeners, I took the most frequently asked questions I get and I turned each one into a chapter. Now that's that was a response to me learning that from the first product that 10 hours was too long, right? So that's an outgrowth of that. Okay. So now if you want to know how do I appeal for money, go to the chapter, look it up, jump to page 491 or yeah, whatever. And and because people learn by stories, I had a true story for every chapter. And fortunately, I had this illustrator who like drew all these things. And so she drew. Yeah. So that so that was that was a fun project. And that one I I learned on, you know, that one worked for me. But, you know, you just learn people do like to talk to people. They like relationships. And I think had I had like newsletters or databases or things built up, I think I would have done a lot better. I think that I just relied on the quality of it and word of mouth is just gonna spread so much. And it does to a certain extent, but not if I would have had like that built-in database of contacts. Right. Then then I feel like it, I probably would have, you know, I still would have had the same problems of things changing and the DVD issue and some of those things. And but people would, I would have, I think at least I could have at least covered my cost. So that's a lesson I've learned. That's a lesson that I've learned. I I've not been someone who's done like much with social and those kinds of things. Yeah. Yep. And I'm just really starting to do that now. I just literally starting now with like an Instagram person. And then by going to YouTube, you know, those are kind of new things for me, to be honest. I mean, I've I'm out there, like I think I have 2,000 something on LinkedIn people, but I've never like, I don't really post. It's just kind of people that ask me. That's just organic. Yeah, it's all organic. Yeah. But now I like, you know, now I like think I'm gonna have a LinkedIn person to manage LinkedIn. And but just the YouTube is such a big project, like five videos. I just want to like master that first before I spread out a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00That makes sense.
When A Podcast Starts Driving Clients
SPEAKER_00So I love that you had mentioned word of mouth and referrals as your primary source because I think, especially when you're first starting out, a lot of people want to fall back on the traditional marketing of like, I'm gonna do a radio ad.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00That's not gonna do anything. You're not going to earn clients from that, right? Yes. And it's I do love that you mentioned presentations. I've talked a lot on the podcast about the importance of like public speaking, seminars, workshops, like just get out in your community and be a source of knowledge. And people will be attracted to that. I have a feeling that listeners who are aware of your podcast and the popularity of it are going to make assumptions about building a client base based on the podcast. Can you just speak to that? Like, I'm guessing that you don't get as many clients as one may assume. Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe you're like, no, the content is phenomenal. Like, yeah, I could see, and I know you get those questions from a listener. You have some very loyal fans, right?
SPEAKER_03Like I do.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just curious, how has that played into your business development?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so that's a great question. So, you know, I started the I've always had this passion to, as I talk about, make college knowledge available to all, right? Like the complex, complicated process. It can be very expensive, but with a lot of knowledge, people can navigate. So I've always had this sort of access passion. So that was driving me behind. Both the video, the book, everything. But at the same time, I want to make at least enough money to justify my time. Right. And so that's kind of how I went into it with the podcast. Like, okay, I'm going to be serving the wider body out there, and people will get free knowledge. And that's fantastic because I have sort of strong pass. I mean, I worked for an access organization for a long time, right? So, so that like, you know, the whole idea of like leveling the playing field, I that does appeal to me. But it's so time consuming that I do want a little bit of return of investment that way. So the first year, and you know, we never miss on our podcast. Like we start going Thursdays. Never. Never miss. We never miss. Like that. I'm religious about that. That's one thing. We did hire a consultant before we started, and that was one of the, and also I was just a podcast junkie. And I know I like my podcasts when they're regular. I don't like it when I hear you three weeks in a row and then you're gone for six weeks. So you kind of do what you like. So the first 52 weeks, there was not much. Like we picked up, there are like three people who hired us in 52 weeks never missing. But after that, it really did start to pick up. And and I and right now I do get a lot of business from the podcast. Yeah, good. A lot of business from the podcast. And then I don't even like to, I don't people don't even know my company. I try to keep it separate as much as possible. But people just people can look you up. And I have to do is click and look you up. And I I just don't want, I just don't want it to be salesy. So I don't, you know, like one of the best compliments I I remember getting was you're the one podcast in college admissions where I don't feel you're trying to sell me something. And that's like really important to me. So, but people seek you out and they look you up. And so now for us it's a major, major source. Like even to the point where for you. Yeah, like even to the point where it's like more than referrals. You know, it's got to that point. So, but that wasn't that was probably like year seven, or I mean, you know, we at listeners like we're up to episode six, I don't even know what it is now, six fifty-nine, something like that. Yeah. So I don't say it got to that point like after episode 500. Right. I mean, I'd say by year, you know, it started to pick up a lot, like year three, four. Every year it's sort of picked up. And then especially if I count, okay, somebody came to you through the podcast, but then they hire you for a sibling, and then they refer you. So do you classify that as a referral or do you classify that it was as a podcast? Because it originated with the podcast. I remember when I looked at our source of business two years ago, it was like 63% referral. It was like 30, 35 podcast, and then other stuff, like you know, referrals from other IECs. For a while, I had this person in the New York Times that was like calling me all the time and I was getting quoted in there a lot. That that generated business. People would call you from that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so all these little things were like, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there, speaking receptions. But now when I look at it, like I just looked at it this year, and podcast is actually even more than referral. And and one thing that that I would say, I refer I used to always say referral was my favorite type of client because the people that referred you, they pre-screen, like they kind of know I think you'd be a good fit. Exactly. I've actually found that podcast is even better than referral.
SPEAKER_02Better, yes.
SPEAKER_03Because they really can tell if they're going to sort of dive with you by your philosophy and that. And and so uh, especially if they're like regular listeners, you know. I I picked up the coolest client yesterday. I'm still pretty happy about it. Yeah, is someone from the Bay Area. And we get a that's one reason why we're so like we have a lot of California, and that's our biggest, our biggest market for podcasts, too. And someone from the Bay Area, and the mom wrote the sweetest note, and um, and she she used her first name, and she's like, name of person love stuck, which is my nickname. She's like, Love, you know, I love stuck, but I just need to make sure my daughter's comfortable with you. And so everything went well. And then like I was like that. And and my coolest story, this was actually one of those three people in my first year. This mom, a mom from Wisconsin, you know, she reaches out and she's like, you know, we're having a phone call earlier, and she's like, I just want somebody with your values pouring yourself into my daughter's life. And I remember saying, What values? And she's like, No, like I was really naive that that people could really pick up your philosophy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, and so it has been the podcast has turned out to be really good for business. But that's, I mean, you know, we're kicking out a lot of episodes and it's 20 hours a week for nine, nine years.
SPEAKER_00I was going to say, first of all, it's a testament, like comments like that are such a testament for the way that you show up on the podcast. You are so personable and open and honest and like sometimes raw and real, and like you put it all out there. Like people do feel like they get to know you. Like, I'm like, Mark's hanging out in my car.
SPEAKER_03Like, thank you. Because you wonder sometimes when you do that, are you like either, you know, either one being too vulnerable or sometimes going off topic and like stick to college? And so it's nice to know that people like value that perspective. Oh my gosh, yes.
SPEAKER_00And the other thing I'll say about that is like I obviously stand corrected, right? Like you do get a lot of business from the podcast, but rightfully so. Like you mentioned 20 hours a week. Like that is a lot of time. Like that's a huge amount of work. And but you know what, it does pay off, but you also have to grind it out, like you got to put it work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, fortunately, it's fun for me. Like, you know, because it it takes time when you get a guest. It's a little bit easier for me now because I have appointment setters that set appointments for me. It's pretty cool. Like, I just went, like, one of my one of my appointment setters, um, she's pretty awesome. Carolyn's her name. I have to give her a shout out. And she's always like, and she has a sales background, so she's really good at like getting through gatekeepers and stuff, you know. Yeah, nice. So just so she just reached out to me. Any any more you want me to set? And I'm like, yeah, I'd really like to interview the people at Virto. I've wanted to do that for a long time. So, like right away, she said she went and found the president's name, and and she so I'm like doing that interview coming up. So that that was part of it, like reaching out, and then there's like you do your pre-meeting and you go over everything, and you gotta like set your questions, and you know, and then and then you have the recording, and then you have the um editing. And so just altogether it all kind of added, and because you know our podcast is long too.
SPEAKER_00It is really long, yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. But but so much of that job is fun for me. Like, even the editing, I never thought I would love the editing, but the editing is so much fun. Now, now I do have a sound engineer that does the sound stuff, but I'll go through and like get rid of you know mistakes or little things. You know, it's yeah, I realize how many times we all say you know. And so I just screen things like just little things like that. But even the content, like sometimes you're listening and you think, you know, I probably could have said that a little different. So then I, as the producer, I can go record uh sometimes you may can may tell that I recorded that later. Yep, you know, I'll have to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you jump in and you're like, you know, one thing that I thought of. Exactly. I love that.
SPEAKER_03It's fun because it's sort of the creative process. And so I never I never thought I would enjoy it. So once again, it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I love
Referral Flywheels And Local Presentations
SPEAKER_00it. So we have a lot of, as you can imagine, newer consultants who listen to the podcast for inspiration or advice.
SPEAKER_03Like if you were talking to a new consultant, what is your like your words of wisdom that you would share with everyone why the one thing I tell everyone, and this is true for newer people on our team as well, is just what's that term, like five-star Michelin service to your clients, like treat them like gold. And one of my saying is turn your clients into walking billboards.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes, I love that one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's right and and and and because they'll find people for you, and especially when you're newer, because it the industry has become a lot more competitive. Like when I first started doing this, the majority of the time when I would do a presentation, people did not even know the profession existed. Now it's like, I mean, now like last year I had one person that met with 20 people, and another one of 15. So, and it's very common for someone to say, Well, this was a good meeting, but we still have like four more people. Like, so that's tough as a new person to break in. Yes. Because even like now, sometimes like I'll be, let's say I'm in a I have somebody just say from Portland or whatever. Like they'll say, like, how many times have you worked with somebody from my school? And like fortunately, a lot of times I have because I've been doing this for a while. Right, right. But sometimes I haven't, but I'll, you know, maybe I'll say, Well, I've worked with like the six schools around you or something. But as a new person, like that's tough to compete against. But with a referral, if your best friend says, you know, Jackie is awesome. Now you stand on her shoulders and you come in and you can compete against anybody. And so, especially for a new person, whoever you get, treat them like gold and let them, and they'll naturally find people for you. I do think presentations can be really good. Me too. You know, you can get some really good presentations. You know the things people are looking for, how admissions has changed, you know, you know, how to save money, how to get free money for God. Whatever you get a couple really good ones, a couple good PowerPoints. See if you can find a couple local schools. There a lot of times can be people, or it doesn't have to be a school, but you know, organizations with kids that are open to that type of, you know, presentation. And that can be really good because just the comfort. I'm really into content marketing. So that's a form of content marketing, right? Like come in, you know, like one of the things we do now with with your calls about okay, we do receptions all around the country. Yeah. And I mean, I did four in Texas on my Texas trip. I did three in California on a big California trip. We've never done one of those where someone didn't reach out to hire us afterward. And like it's funny, I just had I did one in central Texas. It was a small little, wasn't even like I did one in Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, and then Central Texas. And then it was like, I did that in April of 25, and then somebody just hired me yesterday from that. From it, yes. Yeah, yeah. So, like, you know, because I was saying every time someone's always hired except for one, and then now here it is like 17 months or 15 months later. So I do think presentations are really great, and just content marketing in general. And then another thing that's not bad too, and some people have to start this way, you have to start out either volunteering or even maybe, you know, just depending on where you are, like sort of the page of Goma, like whatever, like your price, you know, you'll put your price up over time, but starting out, you might have to be a little lower and start out. Listen, pay me what you need to, whatever you can. And I'm not saying that I'm not saying everybody has to do this, but I'm saying that method can work.
SPEAKER_00Correct. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because you're because you're there, there's still a lot you're learning too. So it's kind of nice to get some of the cut questions and asked to you while maybe the expectations aren't as high. Right. And so that's not a that's not a those are not bad ways to go. And everybody, people can do it. You gotta, you have to, you know, you have to persevere and stick with it. And you just you have to like love people and serve them.
SPEAKER_00I could not agree more, Mark. I'll go back to your point about finding people to help, like when you're a new IEC. So I teach in the UC Berkeley College Counseling program. And so I have a class right now. We just did a Zoom last night, and we were talking about this very topic like, how do you get your first clients? And I was talking about, you know, offer like volunteer or offer to help your friends, family, like their kids, you know, neighbors, whatever it is, like get a couple of mouths to talk about you. Yes, right. Like you don't even have to be paid, but that you can even say, like, listen, I'm just starting out, I'll do it, no charge. And in exchange, if you love the work that I do, just tell your friends.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. So you can do that, or you could say whatever you can give, whatever. You can do it either either way. I didn't know you were in there. I've I've been a guest, I've been a guest in there a few times. Cool. You know, it's been fun. It's been fun being a guest in that, yeah, for those students.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll have to keep you in mind for the future too. That would be great. Yeah, and I totally agree with you about content marketing, and you don't have to make it complicated. Like, I think that's even the word content marketing is overwhelming for some new IECs. And I I tell them the same thing, like just create one presentation.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Like have a website, create a presentation, and go talk. Like go talk to people and it'll all work out. But yeah, great advice, Mark. Can you share anything that you're struggling with as a business owner right now? Like, what's your biggest challenge when you think about students, parents, the business side? Like, what's been something keeping you up at night?
SPEAKER_03Right now we're in a great place, but I have struggled in the past at times when maybe I had someone on the team that didn't have the level of positive attitude that I I look for. And like there was a one time where I brought a new person on and I didn't even want them to come to staff meetings because I didn't like the energy. So that's something that I've recently struggled with, but now we're in a great place there. So I've really learned to really take your time when you're bringing people on the team. You know, and now I'm tend to bring them on more part-time and you know, have them work with the fiat and like really make sure that everybody works well together. So that's not currently a struggle, but it was a that was a struggle in the last couple of years. I think that's a good question. What are we struggling with now? I mean, it's always I'd say that this is not a new struggle. It's the parent that wants to be so involved where it feels like you're crossing the line. And then how do you communicate that to them? Like, do you establish policies? But it's very hard because so many things are so situational. And so it's hard to just have, well, you can, you know, this, this, this, and be really rigid. And so I would say that is still would probably be one of the biggest challenges, would be that parent that we feel is more involved in wanting to dictate things than we think is in the best interest of the student and how we draw the line, how we communicate that. But at the same time, you know, we we're not one of these firms that like a parent can never ever sit in. Like we think parents have valuable knowledge about their kids. And like in our onboarding process, parents are at the first four or five meetings as part of our onboarding. And even in our initial brainstorming with the personal statement, we found value in a parent being there because one, they know their kid really well. And two, you can get their buy-in on the topic in your process. And then when you get to buy-in, then they're like more likely to feel comfortable and they don't meddle as much. So I would say if I had to pick one challenge, I would say that would be it. I would say that would be the biggest challenge.
Parent Boundaries Team Fit And Pricing
SPEAKER_00I think you speak for most when you say that, Mark.
SPEAKER_03I knew I agree with Farr. I knew, I knew it wasn't the first time you heard that.
SPEAKER_00No, and I live it every day.
SPEAKER_03Um, but I like I know another challenge we have a little bit, it's a little bit of a challenge. So we do not believe in setting our pricing based on what the market says you, you know, and that's not yeah, it's just part of our access commitment. Like, yes, like um I look at it like there's a lot of people they have two or three kids, and they're like they're staring the cost of college in front of them. Some of them are in private schools, the kids are thinking about med school or law school, they're still looking at test prep, they're still looking at travel to all these things. There's a lot of expenses. And so we have pricing that we think is fair, but we we want we don't only want to work with the 1%. We don't only want to do that. And so, like our most expensive plan is 99.95. That's our most expensive plan. And that's you get up to three years with that. Now, obviously, people don't don't um need as much like in ninth grade. Right. Right. But the one of the problems I have is because we're national and because pricing varies so much across the country, yes, that when I'm in certain markets, people can be like, why are you so cheap? Well, exactly. Because the pricing that they're getting in their markets, you know, we can get that in New York, we can get that in LA, we can get that in Palo Alto, we can get that in Greenwich. And that can be frustrating because, you know, like most of the time when we tell people our reason, they're good with it. And we certainly have plenty of people of means, like anybody kind of does who does this. I would say most of the clients don't qualify for need-based aid. The majority. It doesn't mean they're willing to pay 100K versus college, but they don't qualify for need-based. Yep. But it does frustrate me when like I'm doing this for access reasons, but I feel like it can hurt us with, you know, the qu like people don't get that. They kind of assume that you would do market-based like if you're better, why wouldn't you charge more? And so occasionally that hurts me not getting a client. And that's a little frustrating. But um yeah, I but I also have people who love the reason why we say we do what we do as well. You know, they love it.
SPEAKER_00That's probably more of your ideal client than someone else, right? Yeah. So you're working with the people who are truly a good fit. So good for you for holding that, you know, ground.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but you know, sometimes you wonder like, do you need to have that one really higher price thing that you don't use that often? Just so that certain people think, okay, I think he must be good because he has that higher price thing. Like, you do wonder, like, should you do some of that stuff? And I would say, you know, obviously we have stuff all the way down to like, you know, low as $13.95 too. We go from $13.95 to $99.95, depending on what people sign up for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that, Mark. I think that's helpful for listeners. And I do think, you know, one of the things that I especially talk to my Berkeley students about is price equates value. And so it's okay at the beginning if your price is a little bit lower because you don't have as many years of experience. But the perception from the consumer is if you're lower, there's a reason. You know, no one wants to hire the cheapest attorney, right? Or accountant, or so I do tell them to be, you know, just aware of their for the pricing in their geographic area and to make sure, like, don't be the lowest of the low.
SPEAKER_03Like it's just a challenge because we're so national. Like, so if I'm in like 99.95 is a lot in like Missouri or someplace, you know, you know what I mean, or even you know, and but then it's it's just certain parts of the country where the pricing is really, really different. And yeah, so that that's just I'd say one of the challenges. But a lot of people do like our commitment to access when we explain why we do what we do, they actually respect it even more. And it's not like we don't attract people of means, but it's just it just comes up sometimes. And so it's I it's still a little bit of a challenge. And I think if we were to change anything, we would probably just change our our platinum plan and keep our other plans where they are, and that still would allow us to serve the kids that we want to serve. Exactly, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very cool.
Using AI For List Building
SPEAKER_00So, Mark, I'm gonna ask you one last question. Curious, and I've been asking everybody this recently, is give me one way that AI has helped your business productivity, like some positive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I like I've I like Claude's my favorite.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03And and I have uh, you know, I've used Chad, I've used, I've used Gemini, so I'll use all three of them. I mean, I I use it in the, you know, like in the list building process. I find it helpful to create scenarios and then to have it surface names and then to go back and do a little bit more research on those names. But sometimes I found it's been very good at identifying some names that help with the college list building process. So that's that's one certainly this is really niche, but and I was telling you know, you this brook before we came on. I've actually this is a podcast list. I don't know if you remember, but I put a call out for volunteers once. And I got this incredible response from all these volunteers. Like I that's where I got my appointment centers, that's where I got people that send thank yous now to our interviews. Yes, and I and I also got three people that like came from podcast marketing backgrounds.
SPEAKER_02Crazy.
SPEAKER_03And they were like amazing, and they help us in different ways. And one of them was the one who told me that I needed to go to video. So like that was the move to YouTube, and that I needed to be using Riverside, you know, which is incredible. And Riverside has all these AI things built into it, which is incredible. So that's I know that's niche and it probably wouldn't apply to most people, but their AI um is really amazing for me with podcasts. But I would say those are some of the things. Just putting queries in, you know, and then having it generate information and then doing the verif, you do have to do the verification. Yes. Because the either there are errors there. But it can be really good at generating, you know, things in that area. So that's the first thing that comes to mind is it can be a good tool in list building.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Thank you, Mark. Awesome. So, okay, I do have two more questions. Sure. But they're short.
SPEAKER_03You've got my time. So I'm only another minute for 38 minutes.
SPEAKER_00So perfect. Is there anything else that or any questions that you wish I would have asked you that I haven't, or any final thoughts to share with our listeners? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03There's nothing that I I'm Thinking you shouldn't have asked me, but I just want to share with the younger consultants like you absolutely can do this. And sometimes I see younger consultants get really discouraged. They're like, they only have three people, or and they're wondering, and they maybe they're they already know. Maybe they're like, you know, I don't I didn't do admissions or whatever. I don't didn't do college counseling, like I don't have that background. And they would start questioning themselves. And and they absolutely can do it. You know, you want to constantly be a sponge for knowledge, because it one of the things it is a knowledge professor, and people are going to expect you to have some knowledge. So be a student of colleges and be learning at all times. But don't quit is my biggest advice. If if you love it, if this is something that you love, I would just say don't quit. You know, one of the things I want to, it's a it's an aphorism I try to live by, which is if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. So basically what that means is like if nothing's working, then try something new because it's not working. So it is time to shake it up. But just if you really love it, don't quit. Because like, you know, I have had four different parents that have gotten me more than 10 clients. Wow. Like not leads, clients.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, yeah. One of them has got, in fact, this one client, you know, he called me and so whatever Dr. Diaz tells me to do, I do. So unless you're unless you're more than 50 grand, where do I sign up? Oh my goodness. That's what he's saying. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I love that. And so, yeah, that one client's got me 14 or 15, another one 13, another one 11. So you never know who you're going to meet that is just super connected. And the number one reason why the that group of people got me people, it's not like their satisfaction may be higher than somebody else's, but some people just really networked.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so, like, you just need one of those people, and and you can all of a sudden get three, four, five clients.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And then with siblings, like, I mean, we probably as a company, we probably see 30 siblings a year.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, maybe even, maybe even more. More. Maybe even close to 40. And I'd say 30, we have 30 to 40 siblings. And so once you get in, like, do you know how easy that is? Like, okay, it's time for the next one. Some of these families have three and four kids.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_03So if you love the work and you really enjoy it, I know it's discouraging because you might look around and say, like, I just don't have that many clients, but you absolutely can do it. So that'd be my number one piece of advice is just don't quit. But you might need to shake up your strategy if, or maybe you just need to keep doing what you're doing longer, but evaluate it from time to time. You know, and when it comes to price, I think everybody just has to be comfortable with something that they can sleep well at night with, you know, you know, that's something you kind of tweak and you're both your packages and your price. Those are things that no matter how long you've been doing this, you're probably like tweaking it in a little bit here and there. And just do what you feel comfortable with.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Thank you so much, Mark. This is fun. Gold, not just for new consultants, but for very experienced consultants. You're a legend in the podcast world.
SPEAKER_02So thank you for your
Where To Find Mark And Closing
SPEAKER_02time.
SPEAKER_00I know that people will be able to find you at your college bound kid, but where else can our listeners find you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so once again, your college-bound kid podcast is now five episodes a week on YouTube, you know. And then now we do have Instagram at YCBK Podcast. And so we're picking up, it's not a lot on there. Probably three or four posts a week go up there. But I would say Instagram, I would say YouTube and the podcast are gonna be if if somebody wants content for professional development.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Now I will say this if you go to your causeboundkid.com, like we have like 290 interviews and really deep dives on colleges, and that's just been completely redone and it's much more user-friendly. So that's a really and then my contact information is on there. I mean, I'm I'm a texter, so I tell people text me 404-664-4340 if if I can help them. But my number's on when my when my when the people were putting on websites, are you sure you want to tell people to text?
SPEAKER_00I believe they set that mark. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_03I do. I like text. Well, for one, uh it's emails can get lost easier, and then I can guide you from there. Like if someone tries to call me, it's not gonna work. Because for one, like I have my phone set up. If it's a new number, it goes to voicemail. And the chances, even if I didn't, that you call me at a time when I have 15 minutes, that's just not good, right? So calling's not good. And then email's okay, but um, I'm more immediate with texts and I just like it. I'm I guess I'm a kid because the kids like texting. I'm a big kid. Exactly, right?
SPEAKER_00You're a big kid, Mark.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm a big kid. So that's what I like.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Mark, thanks so much again for being on. I really appreciate your time, and I'm just so grateful for you and the impact you've had on our community.
SPEAKER_03Oh, my pleasure. It's a lot of fun and it's really rewarding. And, you know, I don't see myself ever retiring because, like, you know, you don't retire to do nothing. Yeah, you you retire to do something you love, right? And so this is this is fun. And I I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. It's all this is it.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, I look forward to many more years of podcast episodes. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03My pleasure. Take care.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to this episode of the business of college consulting. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. If you did enjoy it, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share it with a friend in the college consulting industry. I'll see you next week on our new episode. And in the meantime, take care.