Christian: [00:00:00] Basically, I went from like Donald Duck to GTA three, which was, you know, again, like I, I sat there, I started playing the game and I was like, what the hell is happening to my life right now? It was like, I don't know if you remember, I will forever remember the first time I played GTA three. It's like seared in my memory when you get out to that van and you get in the car and, and, and, and Abel says, I can't drive.
You know, my, my hands are all busted up. You drive. I'm like, huh.
Alex: That was Christian Cante Mesa talking about, uh, showing up, uh, at Rockstar for his job, working on GTA three after, after working on a GBA game. A little bit of a shock. Um. Christian's such a cool cat. Uh, I got to meet him, uh, through, uh, we have a mutual investor, his new studio in our studio.
Uh, he was one of the, the major like lead designer writer on Red Dead Redemption, which, [00:01:00] uh, is a favorite of Yeah, a lot of folks.
Aaron: A lot of folks A Western game too. Yeah. Yeah. That no one expected to be good. It's like one of the best games,
Alex: you know? I like to look up stats, you know, I like to do my research a little bit, so I, and I knew Red Dead was, is one of the greats, so I, I just looked it up on, uh, IG N's top hundred games of all time.
Yeah, it was in the twenties. It's in the twenties, which is really good. It, it's, it's in the same and it's a good game. I think it's in the same mix as Halo. Somewhere in there. Yeah. Where's Halo at? Actually? Uh, it's somewhere around there. 20 something.
Aaron: You
Alex: know
Aaron: what, I just got you just, you just reminded me what I just got.
Dale Earnhardt Jr's Halo car. The nascar, you know, I was like, should I buy this? And I bought it.
Alex: Well, you bought, what did you buy? It's, you buy an actual nascar. It's a die cast. It's like a die-cast.
Aaron: Okay. Yeah. And it's, I couldn't believe I could, I couldn't believe it was at the price it was at. And I was like, you,
Alex: was this like an eBay thing or was it a, yeah, [00:02:00] eBay.
All right. What'd you pay? What'd you pay for it? I'm asking.
Aaron: It was one 40, I believe.
Alex: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Okay. Which is not bad 'cause it's like a pretty old car. It's like, I think it's for Halo five. When did that come out? Wait a second. $140. Yeah. US dollars. So it's like worthless money now, but not Euro rose.
Alex: But I mean, is this like an investment or are you just like, you this, well you could resell this stuff.
This is, yeah, yeah. Or you could like, kind of like your Lego collection you started back in the day. Oh yeah,
Aaron: yeah. Like I, I am. I'm telling you, I was telling my wife, I'm like, I, I really, I don't know what kind of superpower this is, but see all the junk behind me, it's all valuable. Like
Alex: all of it. So for those of you just listening, Aaron is pointing to, uh, a big pile junk behind it.
Alex said, I look like a whole order. No, seriously. A lot of it's not a pilot junk. It's mostly Warhammer. Right. So, I mean, no, it's
Aaron: a lot of stuff. It's [00:03:00] Warhammer. It's, there's some gunda models that y'all sent me from the game we worked on. Um. There is playing cards. Lot of cards. Cards. Yeah. Lot of playing cards.
Alex: You got a nice collection.
Aaron: You
Alex: got a
Aaron: nice collection. You haven't seen the whole room, but lemme tell you. So I, so there is stuff like the, like that Donald Duck game that um, that he, that he worked on that game Christian worked on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That game, if you find a sealed copy of that game, it's probably worth like a hundred bucks or something sealed.
So stuff like that, like you could find, you know.
Alex: Okay. Are you thinking like, you got, you, you bought this, uh, die cast replica NASCAR as an investment, like how I'm gonna, I'm gonna find display because someday it'll, it'll be worth a lot more be. Yeah. Or because like I think that's super cool. I want it on my shelf.
It's super cool.
Aaron: I don't have a Darrel Dale Earnhardt junior car and I like Dale Earnhardt Jr. And are you a NASCAR
Alex: fan?
Aaron: Yeah. More than Lon. Is that like a
Alex: Saturday for you? Like, you know, feet up on the coffee [00:04:00] table, bud. Light open. You know, I don't drink Bud Light, but, and what do you, what are you drinking Coors?
A desert prince. Desert Prince. Oh, is that your local or something? I make
Aaron: No, I made that drink up side.
Alex: That's a fictitious drink that you imbibe while watching nascar.
Aaron: While you watching nascar. I can tell you the recipe if you wanna know. It is the most relaxing thing in the world, by the way. Put it on our discord.
I'm, I'm I'll. I will, I'm, I'm sure it's strong. No, it's not too bad. But, but let me, lemme tell you this, it is a very relax, relaxing thing to watch and I'll give you, I'll give you a Red Dead redemption thing for you. I pre-ordered Red Dead Redemption one. Way back in the day, and I can't remember where, where it was, it might've been GameStop or something, and there's also a GameStop car, just so you know.
Um, but I pre-ordered the game and they gave me a deck of cards, a red dead redemption deck of cards. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that deck of cards I sold on eBay for like 200 bucks or something. So [00:05:00] like, I'm really good at like, stuff like that. Okay. Like, you just need to scale that, you know? So yeah. There is a, there is a business to doing it, but I, it's like I don't buy, I have, I'm, I'm like, I would say I'm on the over, as you would say, then on the under, I'm saying like 85% of the crap I buy, I could resell for either what IB paid for or more money.
Alex: Well, if you were a stock trader that, that would be, um, you'd, you'd be doing really well.
Aaron: Yeah. On your shelf. I can see on your shelf right now of everything on your shelf. The only thing you could probably sell right now. The best thing would be obviously the Halo helmet. You could get a good, a good really, you know?
Yeah. The Halo, halo helmet, uh, the Autograph, any autograph books you have by developers, you could probably sell. And, and then the Stubs head, I think is the, the next thing.
Alex: Okay. Well, thank you for the assessment.
So, so by the way, look North
Aaron: World, uh, not look North World, but Fourth [00:06:00] Curtain offers a service where I'll go to your house.
Alex: Is that, is that a level of our Patreon? Uh, by the way, listeners, if you do enjoy the show, uh, help support Aaron's Binging collecting Habit by, uh, supporting the Patreon. Um, what, uh, uh, Mar the Bungee's new Marathon game.
They did a reveal, uh, recently. Did you watch it? Yeah, I saw of that. There's, um, I think it looks super cool. There's, I've got a lot of messages with varying comments. Um. But I think it looks approval. Um, and what I saw something today. Um, you remember our buddy Dean Takahashi, Dean runs games beat, it's kind of like a show industry thing a few times a year.
And, uh, they spun. He like took it over it, like they spun it out of Venture Beat and him and, and somebody else who's like running it independently now. So I think I gotta, I gotta go, I gotta go and support Dean. Yeah, you should go, yeah. 15
Aaron: and wear a fourth
Alex: curtain shirt. [00:07:00] Yeah, I will do that. Um, all right, listeners, uh, if you don't know Christian, settle in to meet him 'cause he is awesome.
He, uh, has worked on a ton of games like Red Dead, uh, which we all love. He directed, uh, he wrote and directed a feature film, uh, and he is got a startup now. Um, and, uh, he's from Italy, so you kind of gotta love that too, right?
Aaron: Yeah. I couldn't stop thinking about that as he kept talking about that. I'm like, man, that's gotta be the most, that's why he's so chill.
Alex: He got very excited when I told him about my lemon cello recipe. All right, well, uh, welcome to this week. Hope you enjoy the conversation with Christian and we shall see you on the other side.
Aaron: Oh, wait, hold on. Before you leave, before you go, before you kick it off. Lemon Cello gonna bring it back to nascar.
NASCAR started because you bought, what did you buy? What was the ingredient you needed for lemon? Cello, grain, alcohol, some Everclear grain alcohol, which is where Nas NASCAR started. They used to race. The guys [00:08:00] would make their cars so fast so they could avoid the cops during the, uh, the prohibition.
'cause they were making, uh, what is that? Alcohol? Yeah, they were making the moonshine. The moonshine. They were making the moonshine. Yeah. And then at night they would race. So yeah. Anyways, just wait.
Alex: Just bringing it back, Michelle, and that it's all related. Good job. Good job. That's you, you, you earned your keep today, Aaron.
All right, we'll see you on the other side. Hello friends and welcome to the Fourth Curtain Podcast. Today I am so happy that we are chatting with friend and creative powerhouse Christian Cante. Mesa Christian is the founder and CEO of Day for Night Studios and has a long history in the industry as a writer and a designer.
Notably Christian was the lead designer and writer of one of the greatest games of all time, red Dead Redemption. I saw, I don't know what made me go look at IGN's list of greatest games of all time, probably 'cause I wrote the phrase one of greatest games of all time. Aaron, do you wanna take the over under of [00:09:00] whether Red Dead Redemption was in top 50 or not over or under?
Top 50,
Aaron: obviously over, yes. I mean under,
Alex: I wouldn't have asked it. I guess if it was under,
it was in the top. It was 100.
Christian: Just 105.
Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I think it was exactly right next to Halo. Not that I had that much halo. Oh, there you go.
Aaron: Just can't help it. He has to talk. You see how he put his head down?
Christian: So helmet in the background
Aaron: would show up and maybe,
Christian: maybe had something to do with that game.
Very little.
Alex: Very little. Uh, but Christians worked on GTA Rayman Perfect Dark Tomb Raider. Amen. Shadow of Mordor. Donald Duck. Ducks going, quackers. I didn't know this about you Christian. Yeah, top list I think was the whole episode on that. He's also a writer and director of the 2015 feature film air. And in his spare [00:10:00] time, I don't know where you have any of that coming from, but he teaches screenwriting at USC Christian.
Welcome to the program. Good to see you. How are you?
Christian: Thank you. Good to see you. I'm doing fine. Thank you. Keeping busy.
Alex: Keeping busy. Um, you're here in la is that right?
Christian: I am. I'm in a, in a part of LA called the South Bay, which is this beautiful beachy area away from everything.
Alex: Yeah.
Christian: Everybody says to go from one point to another in LA takes an hour.
Well, if you're in the south, in the South Bay takes an hour and a half. So we're like the extra, the extra mile. That's a selling point. That's a selling point. The extra distance.
Alex: But speaking of distance, I remember you telling me you have a new studio and you're like the only one that's here. Right? The rest of the team is in Italy.
Christian: Actually, I lost it. Pri to, uh, grant Kerko, who's now our second. Team member here in LA Grant is our composer, uh, off rare fame. He [00:11:00] composed, uh, you know, banjo, Kazu, banjo, TUI. Oh, um, you know, golden deny a lot of those classic, classic video games. Golden Deny. Yeah, I believe so. I, I don't want to throw credits there.
The, you know, like, I know for a fact that he did perfect dark banjo, Tsui, banjo, TUI, basically all the games that I was really a big fan of. And, um, we're very proud to have him on our team. And he is also here in la so now there's two of
Alex: us. Congrats. So there's two of you here, but the rest of the team
Christian: is in Northern Italy, I wanna say Milan.
And it's, uh, ceramics
Alex: and, um. How often do you commute to the office over there?
Christian: It's a very long commute, so I do it every three months. Um, yeah. But I do actually go over there and I enjoy when I, when I get a chance to, to go to Italy, uh, for work, strictly for work, I do nothing but work. I go there and I just work, work, work, work and work includes [00:12:00] coffees.
Yeah. And Okay. Going to the beach. Well, I have,
Alex: um, I have family in your bologna, and so I've been a few times and the lifestyle in Italy is very different. At least that's my recollection. I was probably in my twenties the first time I went, and I was just struck by how enjoyable the pace and the different the values were.
Is that fair? Yeah. It's.
Christian: Yeah, it, it, it really depends what, at what time of the year you go and what you're doing there. If you go on vacation, it's, it's a great place to go and Bologna is obviously like a beautiful city full of history and great food and um, but all of Italy is great. Um, and then, you know, like when you're there living and working, it's kind of like, I don't know, it's very, especially Milan, it's very Northern European.
Uh, there's a lot going on. And, um, I don't know, frankly, we're also just working super [00:13:00] hard, so I can't, every time I go there, it's like work, work, work. So I can't really imagine anything else right now. But there was a time when going to Italy for me meant going on vacation. Now it mostly means going to work very long days and hang out with the team there and, um, but yeah, it's, it's fun.
It's good work a booth and people, people generally know, you know, know how to have a good time as well. It's not just mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Work and then mm-hmm. Go home and sleep.
Alex: Aaron, you were about to ask something or we just, I said it's like work
Aaron: in a booth at like E three or something. Like, you're not really at E three, you're just working all day.
Alex: It's like e three's awesome. No it's not. So, and your feet hurt. Um, did you grow up? In Italy?
Christian: I did, yes. I uh, I grew up in a small town that is kind of like in between two very famous, well very famous, two famous tourist attractions. Uh, one is Quiera, the other is Portofino. So, um, I [00:14:00] wanna say if you have seen the movie, uh, Luca by Pixar.
Yeah, my hometown kind of looks like that. So Cool. It's got like a little gulf and there's like fishermen and nets hanging around and yellow and orange and greenhouses by the waterfront, and it's kind of very chill. And also, um, a hotbed of game development. Is that true? I don't know why, actually. It is true.
I, um, I think especially like early on in the, is in the history of, uh, video games development in Italy. My part of Fe, so Delian Riviera, which is kind of like that sliver top of the booth that connects to France, um, had about like five or six, um, software houses in the, in the nineties when, you know, they were basically like none.
Huh. And that's also how I got my first job. There was just a, like, just a lot of people making games in that area. What were you doing your first job? My first job, well, [00:15:00] my first job was as a writer. Um, okay. I, I, I was sort of, um, hired by this. Uh, indie game development team that was being published by Team 17 to write a point and click Adventure game.
And, um, I had been, you know, doing things in, in games since I was about 15. Uh, and I landed the job when I was about, I wanna say 21, 20 something like that, a long time ago. Sweet.
Alex: So you were doing things since you were 15. Like what were you doing when you were 15?
Christian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was always kind of like interested in making movies with my friends and I was, uh, you know, doing the proverbial, you know, film with a camcorder deal.
You know, I. Spielberg was doing really original, amazing work when he was 15 and when, when I, when I was 15, I was remaking Ghostbusters shot by shot, having transcribed it. Um, so not quite as original, but you know, it was fun and it was terrible. And, uh, no, I don't have the tape so [00:16:00] I can't show it to anyone.
But, um, thankfully scratch that question off
Alex: the list. Okay. Yeah.
Christian: No tape. But, but you know, like I was sort of like starting to like figure out what I wanted to do and I. I was into theater. I was also, you know, acting in my school's, um, plays. Um, I was making these little movies and um, and I happened to play a game called The Secret of Monkey Island.
I was never like a huge, huge gamer. Um, but, but, but I was like into, I was getting into video games, um, around that time, and I played the Secret of Monkey. And then I remember thinking, man, the writing is really good and you can really tell like a, a, a good story with a video game. And it was sort of like an eye-opener because I had a moment where I vividly remember thinking, I.
Making movies is really hard and making it into the movie industry is really, really hard. And I was 15, I think, uh, some, something was already starting to sink in. Um, so, [00:17:00] so maybe I, you know, I can make video games and then I can use it as a way to then, you know, go and make movies. If people like my video games, it'll be like, uh, Ridley Scott that started out making commercials.
And so I, I kind of started sort of making games and getting well because I didn't know anything. I didn't know the absolutely. The first thing about making games, I didn't know programming. I, I barely knew like how to load the stuff on a, on a computer. I, I started to get in touch with people that were making video games.
And so I ended up getting in touch with people that were actually making a, a proper video game, like a point and click Adventure game. And I kind of got involved with them a little bit. It's very complicated because. Uh, they were friends with my dad, and so they were kind of like, yeah, okay, you can help us out.
But then they were like, you're a 15-year-old kid who doesn't know anything about anything, so no. Stop helping out. Just leave. And so I kind of, I kind of won and lost my first job [00:18:00] working in games basically by being terrible at it. But I kind of fell in love with the process just by watching, you know, adults do it and doing it properly.
And so I, it kind of stuck with me. And, um, and so when I got a little older, I, I, I tended to gravitate around that community, even if I, you know, I, I was just going to, you know, home bill meetings and listen to people talking about, you know, 3D programming. Because back in the day, all the 3D programming was done in code and there was no 3D graphics or anything.
There were no
Alex: engines.
Christian: Yeah. Yeah. How was
Alex: this all still in, in Italy?
Christian: Yeah, in the Genoa area. Okay. Basically, Genoa being like the bigger city, so there would be sort of home brew clubs. Of, you know, people, uh, interested in making games. And I would just invite myself or I would hear that they were getting together and I would kind of go and, um, I would connect to people.
And so I [00:19:00] would meet someone and they would be making a game on their own, and I would kind of jump on and I would kind of work on that game for a bit. And then this person, you know, would end up getting bored about making the game or we wouldn't go anywhere. And, and through that community I got connected to the people that eventually hired me to write a game many years later.
Alex: That was the team that was Team 17, that
Christian: was the guy that was a, uh, an Italian developer called, called To Precision. And To Precision was a developer hired by Team 17 to do a point to click adventure.
Alex: Got it, got it, got it. And
Christian: that was my first,
Alex: yeah, that's a really interesting arc there. I mean, did, yeah.
Did you have, like at home growing up, was technology, computers, was that part of Yeah. What was it like? Did you have a. What, what did they, what do you have in Italy? Do you have a Sinclair?
Christian: Uh, Commodore, um, well, I personally had a Commodore 16 that I didn't overly use also because there weren't that many games for the Commodore 16.
And I think [00:20:00] my interest for it was to kind of like buy these magazines that had, uh, basic programming in it. And then I would type it and then it would say syntax error. And I would be like, okay, so I'll type it again and it would say syntax error. And then I would figure out, oh, damn it, there's something missing there in the actual thing.
And so I would maybe try to fix it myself. Sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't work. So that was my first experience with, with games and, um, and computing. So to just a lot of typing. It just involved a lot of typing. Um, and, and. So I, I didn't get that much into video games because the, the computer I had didn't have a lot of games.
And the games they were available, you had to type yourself. Uh, the Commodore 16 had some software like to do Sprites for example. And so what I was doing more was using stuff like that or [00:21:00] the, uh, shoot them up construction kit, like a version of that. It wasn't called the Shoot Them Up construction kit, but it was a version of that.
Um, and um, and I was just making little, little things with it. Not even games I was doing like. Little graphical things, even when I was, so, I got it when I was eight and I was trying to figure out can I make a movie with this thing and maybe take, you know, photos of it. So I was kind of like always interested in computers to tell, to tell a story.
Not really like a programmer though. I had to fight with the computer to kind of get it to do anything. And then my second computer after that was, um, well I always borrowed computers from like friends, so I had hands me down from like cousins and everything. My, my family was in incredibly wealthy. So for us buying a computer, which isn't just a, a thing that we could do.
So, you know, my cousin graduated to a better computer, so I got his [00:22:00] ZX spectrum. Um, okay,
Alex: there we go. ZX spectrum. Yeah, that's what I was with that with a soft, what I was imagining. Yeah. And four
Christian: colors. Um, so I played a bunch of games on that one. And then I think that when I, when I saved a little bit of money, 'cause I was helping my dad, my dad did a graphing design and so he recruited me to help him.
And I was doing something incredibly exciting, like, um, electroset transferring. So back in the day, fonts were not really on the computer. They were on the computer if you had it or they were like on transfer stickers that you would just put on a, on a piece of paper and then transfer Huh? To, to kind of, um, like a decal?
Yeah, like decals but, but transferable to rub it. Okay. Yeah. So you would rub it. And, uh, so I was doing that. I was just composing fonts and it would kind of draw where they would go. And then I would just transfer the different fonts. On, on the copy, on a piece of coffee.
Alex: Wow. So like [00:23:00] you'd actually have to like line them up, like Yeah,
Christian: yeah.
Like space them out. Yeah. But instead of, but instead of doing the lettering myself, we were using this thing called LA sets, which are basically, I. Sheets of transferable letters in all the fonts that you can imagine, but that you have to like painstakingly line up and make sure that they're all like, done properly.
Yeah. Um, that's why I understand sounds
Alex: very like you have to have a certain personality type to well
Christian: be able to
Alex: do that.
Christian: Right. Or be very desperate to make some money to, to buy stuff. Which, which is what was most my motivation though. I learned a lot about like, graphic design just by doing that and the grids and you know, don't get off.
You know, like you, you, you would see the grid in pencil and so like, even now it's, it's been very helpful for me for things like composition and that sort of stuff.
Alex: Hey, hey. Yeah. You know, actually that makes me think, let me tell you like a quick little aside and then ask you a question. Uh uh 'cause I remember I was [00:24:00] at Disney for a while and we had a designer there who came from UBI and I remember him handing me.
It was like a hint book, I think for Super Mario Brothers, but it basically showed all the level layouts. It, like I read it and it was a huge unlock for me, be like, I'd never done a like platformer game, you know? And just looking at how everything was laid out basically on a grid was, it was, it was basically systematic design for a game system.
As a player, you didn't see the system, but you know, when you look at this book, it just is so obviously everything is like the height multiples and laid out, you know, and it, my mind kind of went blank. And I'm curious, 'cause when you say you learned graphic design and you still use some of that to this day, whether you had a similar like experience of like, oh, there's a whole system here that's applicable.
Christian: Yeah. Well there were certainly, [00:25:00] certainly things that I learned all these like really foundational building blocks by the way. Like even just working at Ubisoft and I was an Ubisoft as a level designer and we were making gay boy color games. They're very much like what you described. They were like tile based, so they were just.
A grid where you have to put these tiles that are, you know, eight by eight pixels and you can only have so many. And then you have sprites and, and you can only have so many sprites. You know, I think the game boy collar could only have 20 sprites, and I think you can only have 20 lined up. Otherwise the system could crash.
So like with all the platforms and everything that's on top, anything that moves, that's on top of a layout, you could only have 20 of them in the line, if anything lined up. And it was more than 20 of the thing would crash, if I remember correctly. But yeah, that sort of thinking was very helpful. And also stuff like learning, you know, through my dad and working with my dad, I learned like how you separate colors to go to print.[00:26:00]
I had no idea that, you know, you, you look at a photo and it's like so many colors, you know, like thousands, if not, if not millions, but, but really the printing process back in the day required the separation. Of the four key colors you would've Blue, yellow, magenta, cn, yellow and black. Yeah. CMYK.
Alex: CMYK. Yeah.
Christian: And so like I, one of my job was also to kind of get these laminated separations and kind of like make sure that they matched because there's like markers. And if they're just off just a little bit, then when you go to print you'll see it. You sometimes you would see it and it would be the little bit of blue or a little bit of admiration.
Yeah. Yeah. And so that was also something I always do. And because of that, I figured out, oh, that's how colors work. Like you only need four colors. Well you need three plus black, right? And white is the paper, or white is the primer, it's the base. So it's all stuff that, you know, I was 15, 16 at the [00:27:00] time, kind of really stuck with me and allowed me to buy an omega, which is where I was going.
Um, and you know, in the Omega, you know, was an incredible machine. I don't know how popular it was in the US but it was very popular in Europe and it could do a lot, you could do deluxe paint, I could do like little video stuff. So I used it a lot to do more of my home movies. I could. Get the, the, the video signal into like a gen lock and kind of do some video compositing with the omega, do like lightsabers and that sort of stuff.
And then the, the, the video game thing kind of kicked in. I was like, I'm done. That's all I'm doing. So is there any school in here like, or are you just like apprentice? Um, I, I went to high school and then, uh, so high school in Italy, uh, uh, it's uh, five years. It's one year longer than the ES So I graduated when I was, um, 18 [00:28:00] and then I did, uh, I wanted to go to film school.
I did Nott have the money to go to film school. My dad was like, no way in hell I'm paying for you to go anywhere. Um, I like your dad. Go work. Go work, go work, pay for yourself. Um, and so like I kind of like went and worked as a. Dishwasher for a year. Then I, I graduated to being a waiter for a year and then I remember being fired 'cause I was so bad at being a waiter.
Um, so they fired me. And then I think at the time I was like, I need to go and get the job as an office cleaner. 'cause they go really early in the morning. So I'll go with the cleaning crew. I'll clean, I'll clean all these offices and then I'll have all this time when we're done cleaning to kind of do my work and do my writing.
And then, you know, like you started at four in the morning and my interview was a day on the job. And [00:29:00] so and so I never woke up. Like I never showed up. You slept through. So I slept, I completely slept through, I woke up in a panic. I think it was 10:00 AM I. I called and the receptionist said, oh yeah, they left word that if you ever called to tell, you never show up again.
And I was like, okay, I don't think I'm gonna do that job. And I was kind of getting desperate. I was kind of then getting desperate. And then these people called me and said, you wanna, you wanna write a video game? It literally, it, it, it literally went away. I was like, yes.
Alex: So that, or how did that happen?
Did that happen because you spent your teenage years meeting people and going to all these Yes. Stuff. I had had done all these
Christian: little demos Okay. Stuff and all these little things that had gone nowhere and, you know, like worked to all these little teams and I was always like the story guy, or I was always like the cinematic [00:30:00] guy.
And, you know, sometimes coming up with the idea, sometimes, you know, somebody would've an idea and I would be like, oh yeah, we could do this and this and, and because of that kind of like, that's kind of like. Who I was known as in the That's awesome. In the community. And then these guys was like, well, we thought that you could be interested in this.
And I think the offer was like, look, write a page of story. We'll send it off. And um, if team sent didn't like it, we, we hire you to write the whole thing. And I was like, you got it. And then I think I, I had a week to do it and I spent four days just doing nothing. And then in the last two days it was like, I don't know what to write.
And I just wrote something. And out of panic, out of panic came what got me hired. Nice. Perfect.
Alex: So that's how you got your first real job. Yeah. In paid in the industry.
Christian: I love that. What's the name of the game? Do you remember? The game is called The Watchmaker, and it's a 3D [00:31:00] point and click Adventure game That is basically a ripoff of the X-Files, but in a medieval castle,
Alex: huh?
Christian: And um, it came out many years later. I completed the game in 1998. And it came out in 2000 and, um, one or 2002, like years later. Wow. Because basically the company Team 17 decided not to publish it because they got out to publishing for, for a while. They were making too much money, I guess, with worms and worms too.
So they got out of it and then the company kind of went outta business, but then other people bought the company and the game. And then they were like, oh, there's this game here unfinished. Let's just release it. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, the game is coming out. I think somebody sent me a copy. I'm like, what?
This is the, this is the game. So, yeah. I'm sure not, it never happened to anyone. Yeah. But must be my first. I must be the first to ever [00:32:00] heard this.
Alex: I think it's nicer that way where it's like you work on something and I. It seems like it fell apart or whatever, but then it actually came out. Yeah. It's nicer for that to happen than, yeah.
It's a good feeling. You work on something and then it just goes away forever, because that happens too. But So how old were you when, when you get this job?
Christian: Uh, so that was 96. Um, I was born in 76, so I was 20.
Alex: Okay. Off to the races race. I know I mentioned it sort of in the intro of Donald Doug. Yes. Mostly to contrast with the rest of the list, which is more kind of core experiences.
But my recollection from, and this also from my time at Disney, 'cause we worked on like Epic, Mickey and I, Warren wanted to make a Donald Duck game and he, he famously talks about his struggle with the publishing team there specifically about Donald Duck. Hmm. Why? Because the duck is, he's like, Donald Duck [00:33:00] is pretty popular in Europe, right?
I know. I, yeah. Is it? Yes. It's, but not very popular avenue, but not much here. Not as much in the us. I don't know,
Christian: man. It seems it's popular everywhere and they are very protective about Donald Duck. But I can tell you that, you know, rightly so, Disney are very protective of their characters and they have a very specific way of drawing them, and they want them done their way, even if they're on a Game Boy call
Alex: was, was that, was that game, was that an Ubisoft game?
Christian: Yes. That, that game is how I got into Ubisoft. So after my experience with the watchmaker and the game is finished, but basically the developer runs out of money and they, they go outta business. So we kind of all, we're all unemployed, but happy because we, we. I had a longer and more interesting experience than the ones had so far.
I, I was then able, a bunch of the people that worked on [00:34:00] that game went on to work at Ubisoft Milan that had just opened. So again, like there's a lot of planetary alignments in my life. I, I don't know what you guys decide what to make of it. I, I will just say that when that company went bankrupt, Ubisoft Milan would start.
Okay. And so what happened is that
Alex: serendipity
Christian: s serendipitously, um, the lead programmer, a 3D programmer that worked with me on that watchmaker game, got a job at Ubisoft Milan because he was very talented and he said, oh, maybe I should bring my untalented friend along. We also lost a job. And so he kind of gave my resume, put a word for me.
I remember the first time they actually rejected my application. And then another friend of mine went to work there and he also said, there's this friend of mine and he is really good, and they must have thought, gosh, [00:35:00] just keep bringing up these guys. Let invite him for an interview. And so the second time I was actually invited for an interview and I did well at the interview probably because I'm better at talking than, uh, than I guess sending resumes.
And then, and then, uh, and then I was hired and, and that's where the, uh, Donald Duck experience
Alex: Okay.
Christian: Started.
Alex: And so you were hired as a, as a writer?
Christian: As a level designer.
Alex: As a level designer. Okay.
Christian: I kinda went from writer and sort of a game designer because on a point and click Adventure Game, the, the game designer was another person.
But ultimately, because I was writing all the dialogue and I was writing the description of Holy Rooms and I was writing, I. I was coming up with ideas for puzzles because I would be like, Hey, I understand what you're trying to do here, but you know, this is the way I described the room and this is, this is, I think it will work really well with the story.
Let's change it this way. I was sort of learning how to design a game from this other guy that had more experience than I did [00:36:00] because he had done a bunch of point and click adventure games, including one published by Team S. But I dunno if you guys are familiar with how point and click Adventure Games are made, but you basically just write them, you write them like a book.
You, you, you write a big thick book and you say, this is the locations and this location goes to this other location. If you go here and here and these are the characters and this is what they say when you do this and blah, blah, blah, and you write it all out and then people start making,
Alex: it's like one of those choose choose your own adventure.
Yes, yes. It's like, uh, yeah, it's
Christian: like, uh, I don't know, but you play it with like point of click and you have an inventory and that sort of stuff. Right. So, so I kind of learned how to do that and I kind of learned to do it. Pretty well. And then I go and I work on Donald and they're like, you're a level designer and here's the editor.
And it's like a grid. And you're, you know, you're putting down these little tiles out of a tile kit. So forest, okay, here's the forest and here's all the tiles to make the [00:37:00] forest. And you kind of make more forest. You make, you know, 20 screens of forest with three branches and thanks, and, and you just have to kind of like make it fun and put thanks for Donald to collect.
And I remember that the first thing I said was like, is there a story for this game? And the game was initially going to be a part of the, uh, lead platform that was developed in Vancouver, the bigger Donald Duck game done by famously, the Assassin Scripte team. Before there was an assassin creed. That team was working on Donald Duck, but their game obviously was on a Dreamcast and on Nintendo 64 that are kind of a little more powerful, I wanna say police station two as well.
Maybe more. Definitely more powerful than the, yeah, than playing blue collar. And so what we managed to do was to kind of spin it off sort of like, let's do a spinoff that kind of takes Donald and some of those characters, but [00:38:00] we do like a side story that has less, less than all the stuff this. And so I was like, oh great, great.
Can I write, can I go write the story for this? And, and they said yes. Okay, great. Write the story. And the story was basically comic book panels. There were eight by eight pixels to make the comic book panels. Um, so it was still just all tile based, but now I, the artists are desperately trying to draw a comic book panel, and I'm desperately trying to, you know, you can only have one balloon, one character saying one thing.
Okay. And so I'm like now, okay, great. I, I, I, at least I'm doing something that I know how to do. And so I did learn how to build some of the levels and uh, and then I kind of also got to do the writing of the story.
Aaron: We'll be right back if you like what you're hearing like and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts.
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Aaron: back to the [00:42:00] show.
Alex: Do you think working in a environment like that that's really constrained, like you have limits, like hard limits? Do you like that?
Is that a good thing? Does it make you more character creative, you know, or is it like, you know, gimme the biggest canvas you can give me?
Christian: I don't think I could have done anything in the industry if I wasn't exposed to that experience. Yeah. Honestly, coming from like just writing for a point to click Adventure Game, I would've been useless, absolutely useless.
But the idea that now I'm being an editor and I'm like actually building something myself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like writing an adventure game for me was very much like writing a book. You know? Like I wrote a novel that you can, you know, play, but I was not exposed to any of the tools to make it, because in those days there were no tools to make it.
Right. It was just code. Yeah, it was all code. Yeah. There was somebody doing the code and somebody in Trade Studio Max doing the rooms and they would show them and be like, Hey, this is what it looks like. And it's like, great. [00:43:00] Now I'm gonna do another one. And I'm like, yep. I'm typing, I'm typing. So, so that would be the process in Donald Duck.
Me and my colleagues are building it like, right, okay. Somebody's playing what you've done. So you,
Alex: so you're seeing it, putting your hands on the, the tools and the, and the mechanics of like how this actually becomes a game.
Christian: And platform games became my favorite. You know, I used to love. Adventure games because that's what I was playing and that's what my interest was.
And then after working on Donald, I was surrounded by people that were also like consumers of a variety of games, but I was really exposed to them to like all the great sort of platform games from Rare like Banjo, Kazu, and um, conquer Bed for Day, which is one of my favorite platform games of full time.
And you know, Raymond two, well Raymond and Raymond two on the Nintendo. You know, like just, I just fell in love with this sort of very primitive sort of action [00:44:00] adventure gameplay. But it had characters and story and rhythm and music and excitement. And you were like. Lot more immersed into the storytelling.
And I, once again, I was like, oh man, this is so much better than a point and click Adventure game. Like now look at this character, look at the things it can do. And there's all these other characters. And you know, you were looking at something like Banjo on the Nintendo 64 or Mario, uh, super Mario, 64. And it's like, I've never before seen graphics like that.
It was just like, uh, watching a, a, like, like a cartoon.
Alex: Awesome. So draw a couple of through lines here from those early experiences to a writing and directing a feature film.
Aaron: Yeah. I wanna hear about that.
Alex: And b, writing and designing a game like Red Dead,
Aaron: like, right. I wanna hear about that.
Alex: Yeah. What, what a, like what it was a pit stop in between.
Yeah. [00:45:00] How do you, how do you go from A to A to BI guess it goes through, you go, you go A to B and then to CI guess. And then. What were those experiences like? So yeah, what, what, what came after, I guess, Donald, and, and, uh, you worked on Rayman as well. Did you work on
Christian: Rayman? Yes, I worked for, for a bit on a, on a Rayman game called, um, um, Raymond Arena in the US and Raymond M in, in Europe.
But it was basically like a multiplayer Raymond game, um, which, which was also like, um, really fun and it got me to go to Paris and, you know, spend some time with the Adobe of Paris team. But basically the point of connection here between Donald and sort of my Ubisoft experience and GTA and, and rockstar experience is really just, I, I guess like the contrast there between these two projects is really what I felt working on Donald.
Working on Raymond, I felt like I was learning a lot. I was, I was really like, like I said, my eyes were wide open and I was surrounded by people that were like. [00:46:00] Super talented game developers and super talented games players. And so like, I was just loving it and it was just the content there was like, I'm not cut for doing a great job on a Donald Duck game because it's just not who I am.
I, I just, I I, I never intended myself to be a storyteller for, for, for children's stories. And you know, like I'm in my twenties, you know, if you ask me now and, and I have a son now, maybe I would, I would give you a different answer. But back, back in those days, I was like, this is not for me. I, I wanna do agio stuff.
And so completely by coincidence, while I was like very conflicted about what I was doing, I found an article online. Um, there was basically like a preview, like a very early preview on, uh, GTA three. Uh, that was in development at the time and, um, I don't remember which online reviewer was, um, you know, talking about it, but the, the [00:47:00] community was very concerned that the switch from top down 2D two and a half D to full on 3D would wouldn't work.
They were like, back in the day, there was, uh, some people were very excited, some people were very critical. And I read the critical article and I thought, I have to go work there. Like, I literally read the article and they were like, this is gonna be terrible. And I'm like, I have to go work there. So I, I, I, I finished reading it, but what, what was that reaction?
Yeah. What made you
Alex: say that? Were you like, I, I need the challenge, or, this guy's wrong, or this
Christian: guy's crazy. Yeah. This, this article is completely wrong. This is going to be amazing and I need to go work there. Okay. And so, so you're excited? Yeah. So I. Literally, I wrote my resume. This happened while I was at my desk at Adobe BiSoft.
So while people are walking around, you know, and I'm there, you know, doing my work, I rewrite my resume and I email it to [00:48:00] DMA Design Limited in Scotland, which is back in the day the company that was doing, uh, GTA, literally like in, in an hour's span. I do that and then I'm like, what did they do? Uh, they'll, you know, they'll never consider me.
What a stupid, I completely forgot about it. And then, uh, you know, a week later I get an email on my EOF account. That's, that's, that's how amazing I was. But I, I didn't have email, uh, saying, do you want to come for an interview? And so I'm like. And they actually flew me over to Edinburgh to interview and I guess they liked me enough to offer me a job.
And, um, and how big was
Alex: DMA then? How big that was still like Dave, that David Jones, or He was, was David Jones still there? There was the end
Christian: of the Dave Jones here and the beginning of the Leslie Benzes, uh, an era Garbo era. Okay. I, I wanna say maybe a month before I joined, the last bastion of the [00:49:00] Dave Johns era had left the company.
So I don't know if you know any of the names. There's, there's no point in mentioning it, but basically like the old guard had had left and the new management had, uh, had taken over with, uh, you know, and Ando sample as the studio manager. Leslie was the wanna say director of development or something along those lines.
Aaron was the, Aaron Gbe was the, um, other director of the company. Vermet and Adam Fowler was the, were the code tech.
Alex: Okay. So, so you, you end up joining the team at that point?
Christian: Yes. So this is the last six months of GTA three. So basically I go there and Leslie sits me, Leslie Benzes, the producer of GTA, sits me at a dev kit, plays station two dev kit next to him.
And he basically says, so your job now is to play the game and tell me everything that doesn't work. Everything that you think can [00:50:00] be done better, everything in the controls, it's not, you know, working the way it should. Look at the camera, look at the things and just, you know, basically qa plus plus QA with an opinion.
And so, and, and so that's what I did. And instead of just filling in bug reports, I would just write things and I would go to him. So if, if it's a bug, sure, I can put it into whatever. We didn't have a a database, it was an Excel spreadsheet, but if it's not a bug, you know, like if it's like something that, uh, I thought could be different or I didn't like or something, I would just write it down and go and discuss it with them.
And actually that mechanism became how we did Manhunt, how we did Red Dead, you know, like that producer designer relationship actually started at that, at that moment in time because then he was kind of like starting to see and starting to like some, some of the things I was saying. And he kind of put enough trust in me to then make me the lead [00:51:00] designer of Manhunt.
And so Manhunt came after the, uh, last six months. So I did six months in GTA and then I became the lead designer of Manhunt. I also wrote that game. And um, and again, Leslie produced it, so we kind of replicated that formula.
Alex: Two questions here. One, sounds like you went from a level designer on a GBA game, kind of like to kind of doing this sort of side pocket QA thing on GTA to being the lead designer of a, uh, uh, the next rockstar title.
Christian: Yeah. Yeah. All permitted, basically, basically I went from like Donald Duck to GTA three, which was, you know, again, like I, I sat there, I started playing the game and I was like, what the hell is happening to my life right now? It was like, I don't know if you remember, I will forever remember the first time I played GTA three.
Yeah. It's like seared in my memory. Yeah. When you get out to that van and you get in the car and, [00:52:00] and, and, and Abel says, I can't drive. You know, my, my hands are all busted up. You drive, and I'm like, huh. What do you mean you drive and then you just drive, and then you park the car and it goes in and it says, come back.
And you're like, come back. What? And now, like the whole city, you can take any car, you can go anywhere. And I, I just, it, you know, it just changed my idea of what a video game could be. Um, and, and that was like another experience.
Alex: Well, that was my second sort of question was like when, so you get there and you're doing what you described on GTA three.
And at that time, like give, set us straight on some context here. My recollection is there's nothing, there's no comp, there's nothing else out that you really can go look at. Well, these guys did it this way, so maybe we should try it like that. It's like,
Christian: no. I mean, I think that for us working on it, the comps really were like the legend of Zelda.[00:53:00]
In terms of just free Wyoming. But it had all the loading times and it had all like the doors to the dungeons and the things. But that sort of sense of adventure came from the legend of Delta. And then, yeah, that's kind of it. And the first games, you know, like the GTA one and GTA two in terms of just being able to drive around the city, top down and get any car.
But you know, that sense of being there with the camera behind the character in that sort of free roaming mode. Um, that was, and then the, the music, the radio stations, the emergent gameplay. 'cause the emerging gameplay was also something really new that even on the team, people were like, this is breaking everything.
It's, I wish you were, you know, like there were level designers saying, you know, you're supposed to use the sniper rifle. In this mission, you're not supposed to park three cars in front of the gate. And then the mafia, don and his limo kind of smash into it repeatedly. And then you throw a [00:54:00] grenade and you blow it up, which is how I passed the mission.
So, um, you know, you were supposed to snipe on the rooftop and I never even found the sniper rifle, but I think that the leadership of that company was smart enough to go like, wait a minute, this is the game. Like, I don't know how we landed onto this, but now we need to kind of, you know, sit down and really kind of expand on what we have and stop worrying, you know Yeah.
About the things that embrace could potentially break it. Yeah. Embrace it. Embrace it, embrace it. Yeah. And then Manhunt and then from Manhunt San Andreas, where I kind of went back to just join the ranks of the team because there was a all hands on deck. So I went from being the lead. Um, designer on Manhunt and the lead writer, basically the, the, the writer with, with two other colleagues to then just joining the team back in GTA San Andreas.
And then [00:55:00] from there, when the game was released, it was like, okay, there is, uh, there is an opportunity to, to go to San Diego and work on a Western game. Do you want to go? And I said, yes.
Alex: And was that your first, was it your first time Yeah. Coming to the us?
Christian: Yeah. Yeah, that was my first time. Uh, my very, very first time was, um, for the interview, for the job.
So they flew me out. I went to San Diego from, from Scotland. It was like. 40 degrees there, 80 degrees in San Diego. It's like the best in California. You're like, I'm in, who do I have to kill to get this job?
Alex: And so what was that project like compared to, I gotta imagine it was probably longer than other games that you worked on, like the development cycle?
Yeah. Conceivably team. It was five and a half years. Was the team bigger? Five and a half years. The
Christian: team was [00:56:00] bigger. Five and a half
Alex: years. Wow. Yeah. That's a good,
and how was that? Like what, like, I gotta imagine that experience, like was it different, like the way that game was made, was it kind of the same but it just longer and you spent more time polishing and tension deal? Or was it fundamentally different? Like was it made a different
Christian: way? I mean, it, it's a diff it was a different team and a different kind of game.
So it was kind of made in the sim in a similar way, but also in a, in a different way. And part of the different way is the, you know, the fact that there was a new engine being developed that we, you know, that we were using. There was, you know, a desire to, to, to do an open world game. But really the only person that had done an open world game at that company was me coming from GTA three in San Andreas.
So I was kind of like trying to, you know, evangelize some ways of doing it, but [00:57:00] also like wanting, because I'm young and stupid, to also try to do things my own way and be like, well, if that worked, maybe we can try this other thing and it'll work twice as well. So, so yeah, it was, it was, it was super fun.
It was super challenging. I, I learned a lot also because I think I was completely unprepared to. Be a leader of anything. I was a lead designer on manup because it was a team of like, maybe I wanna say 15 people. I don't know if it was 15 people, I would've to count the credits in the little handbook, but it was a small team.
Mm-hmm. It was like definitely under third, I wanna say between 15 and 20. And, and I had like Leslie Benzes sitting next to me, so, you know, it was easy. I was like, I think we should do this. And he would say, yeah. Or I would say, I think we should do this. And he'll say, I'm gonna get it done. And he would get done.
So it was, it, it was sort of like it learning, [00:58:00] but learning more like the craft of storytelling in a game. Learning, you know, how to really kind of push that bleeding edge that, that the rockstar, you know, liked to, to be at getting a little bit outta the comfort zone, but I was kind of like out in the water, you know, maybe the water was on my waist.
And then I go and work on my dad and the water is like, like way over my, like, I'm, I'm like trying to stay afloat and I'm like, and the waves are coming and I'm just drowning every day, all the time. Wow. So, so it was five years of that where you're trying to, you're, you're trying to be helpful, you're trying to do your work.
You go home, you're like, I can't even sleep. I get, I need to kind of go back to work. I'm failing miserably. And my wife divorced me because I was never home. So it was, it was a to move to time.
Alex: Yeah.
Christian: Oh, wow.
Alex: Wow. I was gonna ask, how, how did you get through that five [00:59:00] years of, that's sounds very stressful.
Christian: I was in love with the project like everybody else and I just kept thinking, you know, even if two people play this game, they will play something that we've poured everything into.
And so that was the reason that I would, you know, get up and go to work and stay there until, you know, one in the morning and then drive home and not sleep, and then get up and go back, um, every day. And, um, you know, you just, you just do, I I I, I was just in there, you know, that's, yeah, that was, that was the mission.
There was nothing, there's no, no, no room for anything else. And, you know, again, I don't know if I would be able to do it again, but maybe I would do it differently. But the one thing that I, that I'm proud of is just that I did everything I could to make that game. You know, I, I poured [01:00:00] every idea I had, every desire that I had at, at everything personal that I felt I could bring to the table.
And I think a lot of people did the same.
Alex: All right. This is fascinating to me. Does that have to exist? To be great. That like, all in, like, can you make something great without sacrificing everything else?
Christian: Uh, there's part of me, especially now that I'm, you know, running my own studio, co-running my own studio that wants to answer, uh, yes you can.
And, and, and there is part of me that says you still need to have that sort of blinding. Flame burning inside that kind of pushes you to do it. And, and, and maybe if, if you're better and smarter, you can survive. You know, you can have human relationships that are not just the, the people that sit [01:01:00] next to your desk and you can, you know, manage your time better.
You can manage your budget better. Your spiritual budget, your, yeah. Your li your life budget. Well, no, I mean like the financial budget. Oh, you financial, okay. But, but honestly, I think that I need to be full in, into something if I'm not fooling into something and I don't like just go to bed and I'm just thinking about it and maybe I'm reading something about it, or the last thought of the day is about the project and the first thought of the day when I wake up is about the project.
If that's not happening, then I'm not happy. Then I'm not that I don't feel like I'm on the right track,
Alex: I, I can totally relate to that. And I've definitely had stretches of my professional life and my personal life too, where I've, you know, yes, you, the last thought going to bed, or you can't even sleep because you're, you're just thinking about stuff and you, and you wake up thinking about it.
It can be [01:02:00] crippling, but it's also just so satisfying and motivating, especially when you're have the ability to then go do the thing. So I, I can relate and I, I've had periods where I haven't had that, and I can relate to the sort of, the lack of fulfillment that comes from that. I don't know if it's useful for people who, who listen to our show to hear that.
And I don't know if it's healthy to say it's a thing we all should strive for. I don't know. I don't know. You wanna
Aaron: say it, you need to, you feel like a jerk there.
Alex: There's definitely an element. I mean. I think you're, you're saying this, Christian, there's an element of fulfillment to that, but it can also be sort of myopically, like consuming, you know, it can be all consuming, you know?
And, and yeah. You, you had personal issues doing that. I think there is something about pacing though. Five years is a long time. Like what, what do you think? Like, why, 'cause you said the whole team was sort of like all [01:03:00] in similarly. Yeah. What, what was it, was it about, was there something about that time that place, the, the game, you know, that was so motivating.
Christian: It was a hugely ambitious game and we kept coming up with ideas and people kept saying, great. Do it. And so we kept adding ideas and it, and it became just a very rich experience that, that of course took time to. To polish up and, you know, complete, but, but you get to a point where you're like, now this rocket's are gonna fly, even if we're kind of like holding it together with duct tape.
So
Alex: was there a point where it's like, all right, come on, pencil's down, we gotta ship this game.
Christian: Just one more
Alex: thing.
Christian: I think that at some point it was just like, you gotta let it go. I think it was almost like an intervention where it's like, and not for me, but, you know, I, I think that we announced the game and we showed the [01:04:00] gameplay and we saw like a genuinely overwhelming response.
And that became the sort of like, okay, somebody's gonna fix a date and that's the date and we gotta get done by that date no more. And I think they pushed it again just because even that didn't work, but, you know, but at least it was like, that's the date. Yeah. Do it by that date. And, and then everybody was like, okay.
Fine. We're gonna, now it's serious. Now we gotta commit to that. And it did help that it wasn't just the usual arbitrary, let's come up with a date and finish the work it, it did help that people were genuinely wanting this thing. Like I wasn't sure that anyone would bite the game and. Seeing some of the reactions online made me think, well, we might be able to sell a couple million copies of this game as opposed to none.
'cause you also have to remember they were there, we're developing the [01:05:00] game, and there are like analysts and financial calls for Take Two. And everybody's like, oh, they were doing this Western game and nobody wants to buy a Western game. There's no market for Western games. What's Rockstar doing? You know, the failure of the Old West Project and no one's heard off in years and we're there making a game.
Yeah, right. So you know like there's all that and then you're like, okay, nobody's gonna like this. Why are we even doing this? And then you release, we released the trailer and released a bit of gameplay and everybody was like, wow. And then we're like, oh, this, somebody will like this,
Alex: this
Christian: might, it just might work.
This might just work. Westerns work,
Alex: like Donald Duck westerns are pretty popular in Italy. Yes.
Christian: Yeah. Yeah. They're the, turns out they're pretty popular everywhere, but yeah, they're pretty popular everywhere, but I know tradition. Yeah.
Alex: The, the, the, what was the name of the, um, Sergio, the composer. [01:06:00] The good bad.
The ugly. The music.
Christian: Oh, the music
Alex: and, yes. Yeah. So good.
Christian: Yeah.
Alex: And the director too? Yes.
Christian: Sarah Juliane. Yeah. The director of, uh, the Dollar Trilogy. And once Upon a Time in America, once Upon a Time in the West, yeah. Okay. I was, I was very worried about the whole spaghetti western thing, to be honest. Um, that's why I read that is not really like a spaghetti western, in my opinion.
Not in the way that you would see something like, uh, ser Leon on a movie or, you know. They call it, they, they call him Trinity, you know, like, or even just the, um, the Quentin Tarantino homage to, to, to westerns, uh, jungle, you know, it's not in that familiar, it's in the sort of like Sam, pn, pa, uh, familiar of their sort of like a revisionist western, if you will.
Sort of like later, [01:07:00] later story, all the spaghetti westerns are, you know, like in the heyday of the cowboy and sort of like the late 18 hundreds, you know, when there is a a, a west to be found, there is a frontier, right? And, and about that actually takes place in 20, in, in 1911. So the, the frontier is gone.
Yeah. It's kind of like, uh, dances with the wolves and these sort of stories that are. Um, more about the myth, they're like, about the myth of the cowboy and when that myth kind of hits, um, clashes against reality and you know, what, what does that do to you?
Aaron: Fascinating. So what'd you do after? It was, everybody played it like on, what did
Christian: I do?
I quit. I quit my job.
Alex: He dropped the microphone, is what he did. I quit. I quit my
Christian: job and I was gone. I kind of stopped working for like a year or something.
Alex: Is
Christian: that when you made your film? That's when I was like, I'm done with games. I. [01:08:00] I hate to say it, but that was a, that was the moment when I was like, that broke you, it
Alex: broke you a little bit.
Christian: It it did, and it did not because, you know, because of the company or anything at Rockstar, they were like, great job, what do you wanna do next? You don't have to do another, like, they're a great company. And they were like very open to helping me do and fulfill my creative endeavors and ambitions. I just was done with games.
Like I needed, I need to, I needed something else because I think that, you know, I had done games for a long time at that point, since 96. That game came out in 2010. And, um, I, I just, I just needed to do something else. I was like, I wanted to be a filmmaker. I, you know, I've never been given the opportunity to actually, you know, make a film and, you know, it's, it's time that I kind of go and chase that dream, which I.
Tried to do, [01:09:00] um, with Questionable You did results. You,
Alex: you, well you released a film.
Christian: Yes, I did. Yes. Yeah. Air came out, uh, theatrically in the US and it was a wonderful experience. It's certainly not like I. Academy Award-winning masterpiece. In fact, that was the first script that I ever co-wrote with, with a friend of mine who I'm also met, uh, another writer that I met at, at Rockstar Chris Pasetto.
And it was our first screenplay and my first screenplay as a movie. But I believe his as well ever written. And I, I seriously think that no one's first screenplay should ever be produced. Like it should be illegal. They should ask you, is this your first screenplay? Okay, great. Burn it. We will do the ninth.
Because you just don't know what you're doing. And my curse was that the first movie I ever wrote actually got me. And so like, it, it, it [01:10:00] was very sort of like, it was a learning experience and, and I stand by it because that's who I was at the time when I wrote it and when I directed it. And if I were to do it today, I would.
Do something very different, but I can say the same of man, and I can say the same of Donald Duck and I can say the same of further redemption. So, you know, I need to, well, yeah,
Alex: I mean, it's like, it, it sounds like you've, every experience you've had, you've learned and stacked and moved on, and that it sounds like even after Red Dead, you took a break, you learned to, your limits are, and it sounds like now you're kind of back in doing something in games, but a little different.
Christian: Yeah. Well, I can't say anything about the game that I'm working on right now, but, well, first of all, I'm still kind of a little bit involved in film and television in that I still have a couple projects that I wrote that are now kind of like out there and will never get made. But you know, I, it allowed me to actually write something better.
[01:11:00] You know, writing here allowed me to then. Actually write projects better that I'm more proud of than, um, that are, you know, sitting on my desk. And that kind of allowed me to then start this company because I don't think that without the experiences of working on whether the redemption and shadow more door and, you know, the crew and the other games that I worked on, um, plus working in linear media.
I wrote a comic book and I wrote a director there. I don't think I would've been able to work on this project because it's, it's very different. And in terms of like gameplay, I think my companion, my compadre, David Ani really is, um, masterful at, at gameplay. We, we work together. We're like, we have an even split.
It's not like he's the gameplay guy and I'm the story guy. We both do story, we both do gameplay. But he is an incredible talent and you can see it in the game. He's, he's made. And [01:12:00] I, what I can bring to the table every day. I can only, I realize I can only bring it to the table because of all the slaps in the face and missteps and broken legs.
You know, it's like, um, I, because I can see my wounds, I'm like, okay. Been there. Like, yeah. This is the way you do it.
Alex: So is this your first entrepreneurship journey?
Aaron: Yeah. And, and you're back in games, so you don't back in games. Yeah.
Christian: Yeah. And I'm back in games and I'm happy to be back in games. That's the other thing, because you can't really quit games.
Yeah. Break. Take a break. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex: They come back.
Christian: It's like a curse.
Alex: I've tried, I've tried so many times. Um. Christian, we've kept you long. I am really fascinated about what you are gonna cook up next. Thrilled to have you on the entrepreneur side with as big a canvas as you could possibly dream of, but [01:13:00] with the limitations that you're probably saddled with because it's your own company that is going to create some, I think, really interesting stuff for you.
Very excited. Thank you.
Christian: Yeah, certainly. We're gonna use our limitations, hopefully creatively.
Alex: When are you gonna announce your project? Do you have a timeframe where you might announce still early?
Christian: Still early, hopefully soon, because we're dying to be able to at least say something about it. But you know, it's, it, we, we started the company in September of 2024.
So for context, we're doing this in April. April of 2025. So not that long ago. Okay. Four years. Well, in that timeframe,
Alex: Aaron, how many games have we shipped? Probably by 15, maybe 15, 16. I dunno. You're like next level
Christian: man. Talk about not sleeping. Yeah, we've got too many, we've got too many jobs.
Alex: It's good to have a partner, isn't it Christian?
It's good to have a partner's, good to have a team. Yeah. It's always, always good to have, it's [01:14:00] great to have a partner because Yeah. You
Christian: know, working with a friend, I, I've known, I've known David for 25 years and really just, you know, we can finish each other's sentences and it's, it is just, it's just so great because when I, when I go to bed and it's, you know, one in the morning, I can't sleep.
I know there is somebody there. On teams that it, and it that's him that is awake because of the time zone who's there to kind of even just say, go to sleep, you moron. But you know, like it makes it just a little easier. And it's, and it's awesome. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex: Right on. All right, well thanks for hanging out with us.
Great to see you. Thank
Christian: you.
Alex: And, uh, we'll see you around.
Christian: Nice meeting you, Christian. Thank you both. Yes. Cheers. Thank you for having me.
Alex: I love hanging out with Christian. He teaches over at USC as well, I think. I think he mentioned that. Oh, I, yeah. Well, he
Aaron: said that, I'm like, oh, he is a teacher. He's probably really chill as a teacher, huh?
Or maybe he's like really hard. What do you think [01:15:00] he'd like, alright, listen here, you know, you know how like some teachers give that first speech the first day, you're either gonna die or you're gonna live in my class.
Alex: Is that teacher or is, or is that like, you know, when you're in the army, some teachers say like, cool stuff like that.
You ever have a boss like that? Yeah.
Aaron: You, nobody,
Alex: me. All right, Aaron, we gotta work on this character here. And it's either gonna go great or I'm gonna take you out back and break your kneecaps. Um, yeah, maybe we, maybe with, uh, again, again, we go again. We'd go faster that way.
Aaron: So have you played Red Denver Redemption two, the new one or one?
Have you played any of them?
Alex: Yeah,
Aaron: you played the first one, I'm sure. I'm sure the first one. First one, yeah. I can't believe those games are, what do you think about this? They're like 80 bucks or 70 bucks, right?
Christian: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: People are protesting, like that game is like 5 billion hours of gameplay. I dunno how much did it, but it's like super big.
Yeah. And they're upset that it's like more than 60 bucks and I'm kind of at a point where it's like, y'all, [01:16:00] it's kind of worth it.
Christian: Yeah. Well, I mean, I
Alex: think games have always been the most value. Entertainment dollar. Yeah. You know, it's like Yeah. Particularly a game like that, which is 80. A hundred, 200 plus hours more whatever.
And it's just a fixed price. You know, it's not like a, you know, it's not, not like these free to play games where you're spending 20 bucks a month forever. Like what an incredible value. It's, it's insane.
Aaron: You know, it's weird too, because back in the day they were like 60 bucks as well, which is also weird with when you, when you count, like factor in inflation and all that.
Like, how much was Marathon when you first sold Marathon? What did you sell it as?
Alex: Uh, I probably 49.
Aaron: 49? I think so, I think our wholesale was like 32,
Alex: something like that. But, you know, I, I, I've, I have thought this many times, like the trajectory that the industry has gone until, until like mobile and free to play, which kind of changed things [01:17:00] a lot in just terms of like, you know, um, the value proposition for a player.
But like, there's just this trajectory of like, we're gonna build more. Bigger, more sophisticated, more production value. Things get more expensive, there's more content to consume. The price basically has stayed the same, you know? Yeah. Um, and so just And bigger teams, right? Yeah. Bigger teams are so, players are getting more and more and more for the, for the, uh, for the price.
Um, but it's cost more and more and more to deliver that. And the in industry as well. We talked about this I think last week or two weeks ago. Like the industry has been fine, as long as it just continues to grow and more people are playing. And so you're, you're kind of making up and volume, you know, and games are becoming more relevant.
The IP has a longer life. It, it has grown to, you know, IP film, it goes to film and tv. Like look at the last of us, all of this. Right. You know, all [01:18:00] made sense. And it, I think part of what we're seeing now is I. Not like a limit there, but Yeah, like a limit. Yeah. You know, like how big, how, how much can you build for that 60, 70, 80 bucks over that price point?
It's like, do we need to, I don't know, I hate to suggest that maybe we don't need to build as much stuff per product, but maybe we don't, and when I say we, I mean the AAA part of the business, not like you and I because we're doing something different.
Aaron: Right. But then someone does, and then you kind of need to do, you know what I mean?
It's like imagine if like every copy of Covid, but, but unless you do
Alex: something different, you know, it's like, that's why I think some of the, the games that are kind of coming up on Steam, which are outside of the AAA studio system, like even like a hell divers or, uh, or a lethal company or, uh, even like Outer Wilds, which we, we had, uh, Alex Beacham on, like, these, these are games that are, they're not.
200 hours long, but can be really successful.
Aaron: Yeah, but they're not [01:19:00] 60, right? They're like, they're like 20. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I don't know. I don't, I actually don't know because there's like games that make like, you know, like our, the games we make, they can make a ton of money. Like, what is that game that, that game that just got bought for $40 billion from Roblox?
What was it? The, the
Alex: br Brookhaven Brook was like more like a hundred, 130 million. Yeah. 130 million, 40 billion.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. And that game is not, it's like, isn't it done by like a father and son team? I believe that's where
Alex: it, the origination of his development was, uh, yeah. Pretty small team. But I mean, I don't know.
I think that's, that's the magic of, uh, what video games are. It's like interactivity built on any tech platform, you know, so that it can look and be played in so many different ways in context. I got it. There's always something, something new to do. Okay.
Aaron: Donald Duck. To the first Red Dead redemption. It's like the same thing.
Isn't [01:20:00] that like, you know what I mean? It's like Donald Duck little simple game. And then the dude goes from that to, and the dude is Christian. Sorry.
Alex: So you're saying his career is an, is a, is a analogy of the game industry as a whole. As a whole. Exactly. Thank you. Yeah. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Look at, look at you.
This is your second, your second meta thought. Yeah. In this episode, I can think. And with that, with that, I think we should, uh, release our listeners to the rest of their day. I know that you all are gonna have a fantastic day. Listen to another episode, just. Just let it ride. Keep binging. Um, thanks everybody for hanging out with us.
I hope you enjoyed our, our conversation with Christian. We sure did, and we shall See you next week. See you later everybody.
Aaron: Thank you for listening to the Fourth Curtain Podcast. Visit us@thefourthcurtain.com to find our monthly newsletter and support the show via Patreon. The Fourth Curtain Podcast is a production of Fourth Curtain Media, [01:21:00] lovingly edited by Brian Hensley of Noise Floor Sound Solutions Production support by May Lee, with Community Management by Doug Artman and Art Production by Paul Russell.
Thanks again for listening.