How Aruba Fixes Mass Tourism Without Killing Tourism | Tisa LaSorte | EP 234

Crowded beaches. Traffic everywhere, A surge of vacation rentals.
Aruba feels fuller than ever—and everyone has an opinion.

In this episode of No Filter in Paradise, we sit down with a returning guest from the tourism sector to separate emotion from evidence. Using real data, lived experience, and historical context, we unpack how Aruba got here—and how the island can move forward without breaking the economy.
This isn’t about blaming tourists or demonizing growth. It’s about understanding a missing pivot: Aruba learned how to build fast during refinery shocks in the 1950s and 1980s, but never fully shifted to building smart. That gap is why today’s tourism debate feels so heated.
The numbers tell a clear story.

Between 2018 and 2025, hotel visitor nights increased just 2%, while vacation rental nights jumped 91%. Hotels expanded under permits and oversight. Short-term rentals exploded faster than regulation could keep up. That imbalance—not “too many tourists” alone—is driving much of the pressure people feel daily.

From there, we focus on solutions, not slogans:
• leveling the playing field for short-term rentals with licenses, taxes, utilities, and quality standards
• reducing same-day overcrowding by staggering cruise arrivals
• targeting higher-spending visitors to grow revenue without growing headcount
• reinvesting surpluses into wastewater treatment, roads, parking, and maintenance
• redesigning beaches with more public palapas, bathrooms, and clear zoning
• protecting nature with science-based conservation, not guesswork
• and most importantly—having real conversations with owners who control permits and capital, not only hotel GMs

We also explore a 2035 vision for Aruba: fewer guests, larger and higher-quality accommodations, better service, cleaner public spaces, and rules that actually stick. An island designed on purpose—not by accident.
This episode challenges Aruba to move from volume to value, from noise to nuance, and from short-term pressure to long-term planning.
If you care about Aruba’s future—whether you live here, invest here, or love this island—this conversation matters.

👇 Drop your thoughts in the comments. Let’s talk solutions.

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Transcript

Big News: Show Goes To Radio

SPEAKER_05 0:00

In today's episode, we want to let you guys know that no filter is going to the radio. XFM 102.7 from 10 in the morning to 12 p.m. You can hang out with me and Shark. We're going to be doing a bunch of giveaways, playing different kinds of music, fun games, just an overall good time. So tune in on Saturday, 10 a.m. Enjoy the episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Even in August 2025, sent a resign. Timeline. From 2018 to 2025, the hotel visitor nights only grew by 2%. The hotel rooms grew by 20%. The visitor nights grew by 91%.

SPEAKER_07 0:42

Uh-huh. San Nicolas Main Street is empty. Every other district has no activities other than Airbnb. Is it really that full, overcrowded with tourists, or is it concentrated in areas because there is nothing else? This is a lot to unpack. I know. I know we're touching a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

It's a big topic. It's a big topic. It really is. And it affects everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Your dad. If your dad was alive today, what would he say about where Aruba is right now? But then I'm thinking about Omar Steve right now. Wouldn't that like contradict a little bit with capitalism? Everybody deserves a fair opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

I do believe in free market, but I do believe that you can design what you want your island to look like. But it's a huge investment to do that, right? That's what people don't appreciate about investors. They're risking their own money, right? They're putting a bunch of money into something and waiting to see if that turns into a problem is gonna work or not. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Like what you just said just now. It takes a long time just to build attraction, but it's an instant to lose everything.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

Hey yo, what's up? I'll chemist.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Guys, welcome back to the ABC Islands Favorite Podcast. No filthy in Paradise, a show about literally anything and everything between two friends. One is straight and the other your favorite black homosexuals, baby.

SPEAKER_07 1:52

Are you sure you're the favorite? I am. Who else is everybody's favorite? Did you do a poll, a survey? That's not needed. That's a carnival and then people with their nonsense. Ain't nobody gonna need no damn poll to figure out a shark is your favorite. Like, what? Bye.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Alright, guys. So today we have a special guest, somebody who's not unfamiliar. Somebody who's been on the show before a while ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Welcome back.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

And it's welcome back.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

I know. Let's go. That's right. A lot of people say la sorte, la sorte. I don't even correct them anymore.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

You corrected me one time.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I did good. That's probably because you have to go on stage and say my name.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Yes, yeah. In front of a people.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

In front of you don't mess it up.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Tisa, how you been? Good. How's uh how's everything since the last time we spoke? It was almost three years ago, two and a half years ago. You spoke.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

So much has happened, but it's been a blur.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Legit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

So where do we start? I mean, obviously, a big issue right now on the island, as you can see everywhere, is mass tourism. A lot of flights coming in, a lot of flights going out, a lot of buildings going up, hotels, Airbnbs, like I don't even know where to start.

How Aruba’s Tourism Was Built

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Um well, I think that maybe actually that's an interesting place to start in the sense that I sometimes feel like we need to make sure that people have the correct information. And because there are a lot of emotions attached to it, understandably, right? Because people feel like it's grown. Tourism especially has grown so much, developed so much, um, that you know, a lot of locals start feeling like you know, it's out of control and you know, we've lost our, we've lost our island, you know, we've lost our beaches, we've lost our culture. So there's a lot of that sentiment out there, understandably. Um, so I just want to make sure though that people have the right information, right? So, so we and the first thing is from a hata's point of view, um, sort of we agree, right, that there's been sort of this uncontrolled development. So let's give a little bit of history for a second. So in the in the 50s, mid to late 50s, is when the oil refinery was going to automate. And because of the automation, thousands of people were gonna lose their jobs, right? So, because of that, then you have no economy anymore, right? So that's because that at the government at the time that included my father, by the way. So my father was keen. Yeah, we will we can my father and Juan Girosquin are known for the team. Those my father's Oscar Enriquez, and they they then therefore developed sort of what I call the foundation for tourism, right? So they had the boulevard, you know, the LG Smith Boulevard they created, they created the runway at the airport so commercial flights could land. Well, you said they didn't my father brought the first desalination plant for water on the island. They they they um there's the the you know the runway, the first uh commercial hotel like that. So, yeah, thank you. Where's the statue? That's crazy. Where's the statue? It's in our heart. I didn't know I didn't know about this.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah, look at the this is news for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

A lot of people unfortunately have forgotten. There's people still who remember what my dad has done, but not everybody. And it's not alone. He did it with Juancho Iroskin. But um, the point is that's what happened sort of in the mid to late 50s. So that was like the foundation. Then in the 80s is when the second thing with the refinery happened, right? When it was gonna shut down. So the government at that time then went into sort of this new, again, like let's develop tourism to make up for the losses that you have from the refined refinery closing. So we're talking obviously job losses, tax revenue losses, right? Economic activity losses. So people sometimes don't know how to relate what that means when somebody, when a refinery closes. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Refine.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

So then the in the 80s, what happened was they literally announced it. They literally called it uncontrolled growth. So and if you go back in speeches from that time in the government, they would they literally called it, yeah, they literally called it uncontrolled growth. And at the time it was the right thing to do, right? At the time, they needed to sort of jumpstart that economy back up. So they basically went to developers and said, Build, please build hotels. Please build hotels, please build hotels. So this was in the 80s, mid-80s to late 80s, which included, by the way, the prime minister Hanny Eyman, who was gonna ask who was in charge at the time, so we know minister's hand. So he's known for a very being a very fair leader, a very intelligent leader who listens to people. Oh, fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um also like it wasn't alone, right? He had other ministers, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

I do want to sorry, really quick. What was that movie that we saw in Casicultura?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Prime Minister.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

The Prime Ministers, yeah, great movie, guys. If you haven't seen it, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 6:16

I don't it was a it was a one-time screening thing.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

That's where I I mostly learned about Henny and everything he's done. So it's a really good movie. Um Omar Harms. He's the he's the one that put it together. So shout out to him. So sorry, continue.

Uncontrolled Growth Then, Missing Vision Now

SPEAKER_00 6:28

No, no, that's okay. So in the 80s, it was it was a it was a conscious decision, correct? Right thing to do. Developers were asked, just please, please build, please, please build. So remember, we invited these developers to come build a hotel so you can create jobs, create economic activity, and therefore tax revenue. So I always say you would you need an the reason you need a robust economy is so that you can have jobs and you can have a robust economy, activity, commercial activity in the economy, and that then also generates taxes. And with those taxes, the government then can help solve social issues, right? So that's sort of in my mind is how I simplify the circle. So what didn't happen after the 80s when you had this development again of hotels, which by the way, we should be grateful for. So that's what why sometimes I get a little upset because now that there's all this negativity towards tourism and hotels, they forget why they were invited to be here. And that when they invited them to be here, it was to help the island have an economy. Otherwise, we won't have anything. And we wouldn't have that right now. So that it's sort of like if today you started when we talk about agriculture. If today you said I'm gonna give you know a tax incentive to all these people so they can become farmers and we grow agriculture, and then 20 years from now we go, we hate you. It's all your fault, right? Yeah, it's all your fault. So, anyway, so that's one. But what didn't happen after the 80s is that then the next governments after that didn't then say, Okay, now we no longer need uncontrolled growth. Right? Now we need a controlled vision plan. How do we want it? Where do we want it?

SPEAKER_04 7:54

So basically, you're sorry, basically what you're saying is since then till now, like tum, tum, tum, tumuma, so we're still handing out.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Well, I don't I don't know if they're still today.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

But what I mean is like they never put like a uh hey, bank up bank capital at like 20. And everybody, even future government, need to agree, hey, but no by mass group, no bay binti um you do as many three, for example.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Okay, and then the other thing people need to understand that hotels grew with permits. So when if the hotel growth that happened, they all that each of them had a permit from the government. So the same governments that now are saying we need to stop it, which by the way, we don't disagree with, um, are the ones who actually gave these permits out, right? Yeah, so so that's something to just keep in mind. And then know that where we stand today is that the hotels grew with with government permits, but the vacation rentals did not. Vacation rentals where we had this huge growth in the last like massive growth in the last years, that are not with with permits in the sense that they have you know, like a like a hotel license or something like that that was you know officially given by the government. It just sort of happened, mushroom.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

It kind of like happened on how the how the well, not really. I was gonna say just like in the beginning with hotels, built by build, but in this case, it's not really the same thing because it's not like we needed it. People just saw an opportunity and everybody started building like crazy before the government could catch up.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yeah, and but I will say that there's a reason they exist, right? So I I will I will defend the vacation rental sector in that sense, that there is a reason, you know, the customer wanted it, right? The customer wants it. And if they offer a good product and good service, then then there's a reason for them to exist. However, if you own a business like any other business, you're supposed to have a license, you're supposed to pay taxes, you're supposed to pay commercial electricity rates, just like everybody else. So that's all we're saying is we're not saying there's not a reason for it to exist, but you may be able, if there's regulation and enforcement, you maybe that way be make sure that you're only dealing with the ones that have quality and are doing the right thing. And you maybe then are able to get rid of the ones that are not necessarily doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Correct. Kind of like have a threshold. Like if you want to do an Airbnb in your backyard, you know, go for it, but you need to meet these criteria.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

That's an example of something you could decide.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Because otherwise it's a free-for-all. Everybody can build whatever they want. I have a beach shack that had a carton, being all the pallets or whatever.

Hotels Versus Vacation Rentals By The Numbers

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Right. Exactly. So that's where you want some control, just like like hotels have to have, you know, like like to so that's all we're saying. So now we want to make sure we're clear. I want to um one more thing before I go. So the to illustrate the growth, I went back and I calculated what we call visitor nights because what matters is how many nights the visitor stays, right? Because you can have a million people come for one night, or you can half a million come for five nights. It's very different, right? So visitor nights is the end thing that actually matters. So I went to calculate 2018 versus 225. From 2018 to 2025, the hotel visitor nights only grew by 2%. The hotel rooms grew by 20%, but the visitor nights only grew by 2%. What that means is that more rooms, but the same amount of people are sharing the rooms, that's why occupancy is dropping if you look at the statistics. Vacation rental, the visitor nights grew by 91%. Oh 91% versus 2%. So when you talk about masses, when you talk about too many people on the beaches, too many Jeeps on the road, too many UTVs, too many cars, too much bulk, that's where all the growth really, really came, right? So we need to know that. So so all I'm saying is again, everybody has a right to exist, right? Just you need to follow the rules, follow the law, pay taxes, and you need to have vision and you need to have a plan. So it needs to be regulated, it needs to, it needs to happen according to a plan.

Is Aruba Overcrowded Or Just Clustered

SPEAKER_07 11:23

So you just mentioned that part. We were just on the radio on Saturday. We had a radio show, and somebody said they wanted to stay anonymous, but they sent this message. They said, um anonymous, an interesting topic for you. Is Aruba really overcrowded with tourism with tourists or what we call mass tourism, or are our beaches and crowded? Are our beaches crowded and concentrated in certain areas only because there is nothing else we can current uh currently offer them? Orange Main Street empty, San Nicolas Main Street is empty, every other district has no activities other than Airbnb. So is it really that full um and overcrowded with tourists, or is it concentrated in areas because there is nothing else to do on the island?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

I would say it's a little bit of all meaning. Um, because I think a lot of people are also complaining that if you go to Alto Bista, for example, that there's too many buses and too many cars and too many. So it there are certain spots that are of high demand, let's call it that, right? So it is true that most people that come to Aruba will come for the beaches till today. So that's what I mean with the plan. If you have a plan and a vision where you go, let's say we want to spread the people, we've been talking about that for years, by the way, about spreading the people. We've been talking about it for years. And there's like art murals now in San Nicolas, right? So, so, so the question is um, are we then, is it a matter of who's coming to Aruba or only interested in beaches, or are we therefore maybe need to reconsider who we are attracting to come to Aruba? Is it that? Or is it just because when you come to the Caribbean, you come for the beach and we can try as hard as we can to do other things. But many would tell you that there's also too many UTVs and too many cars, so that on the land it's also too busy. I'm hearing that feedback too. So I'm not sure that is the issue. I believe that at this point, um, when we talk about the volume of visitors, we do have a very large, it's that has also grown year to year, year to year. And that's why you're getting some of this negative reaction of you know, everything is too crowded, the you know, traffic gets jammed up and the beaches are too crowded, people are fighting for parameters.

SPEAKER_07 13:26

There's even traffic on Sasaki, like a line with a roundabout, like we all we also put it back on, like we we've had this conversation on our marketing then, because these are the things that we specifically market is our Alto Vista. Oh, you have to visit our chapel, or um, hey, look at um all of these beaches, hey, look at all these type of things. And then now they're famous. So it's like you say, then the guests are now coming here and they're like, hey, where is this place? Hey, where is this thing? I saw this thing promoted.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

It's a combination of things. I have to say that in the past years, what they've the marketing has also tried to adapt. For example, that's why we have autentico, right? We're trying to promote ourselves as a as a culinary destination. So, so some of the marketing has adapted to trying to get people, let's call them, spread the people. Of course. Um, but that is what I mean with we're still a very tiny island, and so it's still about how many people can we have at the same time on the island. You know, if you have a day where you have three cruise ships all at the same time on the same day, plus you have all the people staying in the vacation rentals, plus the people staying at hotels, that's a lot of people all at once for a little island. So even if you're spreading them out, it's still a lot of people at the same time.

SPEAKER_07 14:30

So then I guess based off of what we like to do here, we we we know what then what the problem is. What to you or to Ajata would a solution look like?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So conceptually, what we and again, this is easy to say, right? It's not gonna be easy to do overnight.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

It's something that we need to discuss and come up with a plan, but everybody has to simplify and everybody has to be on the same page together, you know, like everybody has to agree because that's I feel like that's the biggest issue. You come with a great idea, two three people that are in the same room, like, ah, me at Ahira Debancia Sina, and nobody ever comes to like a unity.

Solutions: Curb Volume, Spread Demand

SPEAKER_00 15:03

That's always hard, right? And the thing is that um, yes, indeed, it would be nice if everybody was on the same page to do the right thing for the island. So when you talk about curbing, for example, volume, people get scared when like you're saying, because they're like, wait, what does that mean that my business won't grow? You know, then does that mean what happens to the jobs, right? But I think that what you want is for the economy still to grow, but to ease the pain that we're feeling from this sort of overmass sort of experience that we're having. So, in our opinion, what you could do is what we call curbing the volume. So stop this growth in volume and maybe make decisions like you know, not three cruise ships on the same day, you know, limit how many come on a certain day. I'm not saying reducing how many come to the island necessarily, but just sort of spreading them out. The same concept of spreading them out.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Based on capacity, like if there's a cruise ship that's 5,000, okay, only one's enough. But if it's three of 1,000 each, we can, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

So no, yeah, I would have said that too. I would have done it by passengers, but I was told that that's harder to do, that it's much easier to say ship. So I either way, right? The idea is to start making some decisions that may seem and some people may get scared, right? They're like, wait a minute, you know, I have a bus and this is my clientele. Are you telling me I'll have fewer clients?

SPEAKER_07 16:11

So you're having clients every day. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

So that's what I and I think we need to, and this comes for you know, a HATA members too. We have 160 companies that are members, all kinds of different companies that depend on tourism somehow. And yes, it may be that short term you make a couple of painful decisions that have a long-term positive effect for everybody. Because I believe that for tourism to do well and survive, because we do need tourism, we cannot forget that we do need tourism, but for it to do well, you need to try to avoid the negativity that it brings. And that's right now the negativity that people are feeling are overdevelopment and over-tourism, right? Mass tourism. So if we can if we can figure out how to curb that or reduce that pain, then you can save tourism. And then everybody benefits and has a long longevity in terms of success in a tourism.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Do you have any idea how, maybe? Like you have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, so I would say um limit the volume and then replace the lower spending visitor with a higher spending visitor. So the share of a higher spending visitor grows within that limit, and then the the share of the lower spending visitor shrinks in in such a strategy. That way your economy can still grow, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Basically, your currency is the same, but the amount of people that come on the island is less, but the amount spend stayed the same.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Or the opposite. So the amount of people is the same, or maybe less, and but the but the spending keeps growing. Correct. And that's your economy then keeps growing and keeps expanding. And remember, this is these are not absolute things. It's not like we're Disney World that you can have a door that just closes and nobody enters anymore, and they go, You're number 21, you don't come in. It doesn't work that way, obviously. So I'm talking in very simplified terms, but you can do it with things like you know, how many cruise ships, how many planes, you know, how many permits do you give them?

SPEAKER_04 17:56

I was about to say, what types of planes that come in?

Target Higher-Spending Visitors

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Like also with customers do they have, right? Or do you allow the allow the ones to come that have the right customer that you believe treats Aruba properly and spends the way you the level you want them to spend? So that's an analysis that would need to take place because it's not as clear as people may think.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

I don't want to be like discriminating or anything, put it like before, but then you got a jet blue coming in that's like a 500-round trip, then you have a spirit airline that's like 250 or 300. So you're kind of like, do you want to be attracting that kind of tourist to Aruba that's that's not gonna be spending as much as somebody that pays like a jet blue or uh what's another one? Delta, for example.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, is that something wrong to say or yeah, no, I know I think it's about looking at the profile of their customer. Yeah. So it's not you can't necessarily determine it by the airline ticket, right? Correct. Um, but you'd have to determine it by the profile of the customer of that airline, of that cruise ship, or or the hotel or the whoever, the vacation rental, right? So it's about which visitor do you have a preference for?

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

And how do you open the pathway for more of them to come and attract them via marketing, target them more via marketing, and then do that less and less towards the ones that you were least likely to do.

SPEAKER_07 19:06

And it's still it's still tricky because it's like you say, you can't say, hey, you can't come anymore. Or exactly, you know, so then or hospitality.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:16

Because the the some of the Airbnb people, they do cater to hey, every and anybody. Hey, what you got? What how much you got? Okay, bring it on here. You can stay in my bedroom for like a weekend.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, but even even in that sector, also you have a lot of variety, right? So even in the vacation rental, there's a lot, there's there's high-end villas, you know, there's there's little. So again, you would have to, I think you would have to focus on enforcement when it comes to what we have to offer, right? Whether it's hotels or vacation rental, anybody. You fo you focus on making sure that that's quality and that's and that the laws are being enforced, taxes are being paid, enforcement, then you sort of keep the bad players out, let's call it that.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

And then on the other side, you you review your tourism strategy in terms of who you market to and who you want to invite to come. That's for sure. That needs to happen ASAP.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

So if you started taxing it, they don't have a choice but to up their prices and then you also filter out. Like, I don't know how to say it nicely.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

So, like no, but that's true. Because one of the reasons the vacation rentals or our hotels that pay taxes wish for disinforcement is because, hey, we're all paying taxes and therefore our rates have to be higher. Yeah. And if you were paying taxes, your rates would also be higher. Correct. And then we have a level playing field.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Because now people people go people are gonna say, uh, it's$300 here at this Airbnb, but it's$550 at the hotel. I there's a$200 difference, but that$200 buys me beach front. I'm right, I don't have to go anywhere. I have a maid that cleans all my room. So how do you offset offset dosh and dollar could make it worth like what's a bang hotel and busy Airbnb before it?

Level The Field: Regulate And Enforce

SPEAKER_00 20:44

I think those are very personal choices. I think you can't. Yes, I think, and again, there's room for both. I very much defend that that the customer gets to decide what they prefer, right? So one may, for example, if you're with five girlfriends, you may like being in a house because you have a living room together, you can get together easier, right? You have breakfast together, yes. Whereas when you're in a hotel, you would have to make an appointment to get together in the bar, right? So so I understand that lifestyle change and our families with little children may prefer having a kitchen. So I think that's a very personal choice, and they both have a right to exist.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Do you have an idea how much of money Aruba is losing by not controlling Airbnb?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yes, but I would I'm not sure I would mention it here, but yes, but studies have been done, yes, and it's it's a lot. We we the one of the studies that we we we believe it's at least, and it's even higher than this, probably, because it's not just the tourism tax, right? It's also income tax. It's it's it's much more than just the tourism level.

SPEAKER_07 21:38

He said it was a high number.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah, we believe it's at the very least, it's at least 70 million per year.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Yeah.

unknown 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

You know how many schools and roads you can fix with that?

SPEAKER_07 21:46

No, he did he did mention something like in that in that direction. I remember when he was here and he was like, Hey, listen, there's a lot of money just because there's no control. A lot of money just running all over the island.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

And the worst part is that all that money comes in, they stay in the state. Some people have There are continent states that's transfer over there and yeah, some of the owners, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Some of the owners, and not all, right? Because there's a lot of locals also who own, and that's and we endorse that completely. It should be an opportunity for the locals. But there are a lot of non-residents who own, and they own may own 10 houses and they live in the US or in Canada or whatever, and then the transaction takes place over there, right? Like and they don't have employees that they're paying here or anything. That's crazy. They may pay a commission to a local property manager. That's why, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 22:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

This is a lot to unpack. I know. No, it touches that.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

It's a big topic. It's a big topic.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

It really is.

SPEAKER_06 22:34

And it affects everybody. Everybody. Everybody.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

Well, then how can how does a hat or does anybody who how can we balance hotel expansion or maybe even Airbnb with protecting the quality of life of residents then?

Who Decides Growth: Owners, Not GMs

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah. Well, a couple of things. A couple of ways. First of all, you want um the sector to be good employers, right? That's the one thing. You want them to be good employers. If you're a good employer, that means you're taking care of your employees and therefore they can take care of their families. So that's one. You do them via laws, but you can also do them for with just encouragement, right? Like peer peer encouragement, we call that. We do that a lot in Hata, where we share information with each other. We do salary surveys so people can see where they stand. Am I below that one? Maybe I should pay a little bit more, right? We do things like that for sort of peer influence, if you want to call it that. And then, of course, like I always say, there's a lot of taxes being played by paid by that sector. How are those taxes used? People forget that, right? So that's really the circle of the economy, right? Like you have economic activity, taxes are being paid, and then with those taxes, you have a government that we elected, by the way. They're there to serve the community, and then they are there to help solve those social issues with those funds that are generated by the economy that we've all contributed to, right? Because when we go out to eat, we've paid into that, we've all contributed to that. So then that government can use those funds. And then you have a lot of charities, right? There's a lot of, lot, a lot of because by the way, I remember, you know, I went to that conference of common good, and I would like to say common good existed way and way before this conference, right? Common good has been on this island for a very long time, and you can see it especially in not a lot of these nonprofits that are very passionate, hardworking people that give their lives to these efforts.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

We just interviewed uh Rend Randel van Tricht.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

He's a great example, Stichten Hunto. Yeah, great example. They do great things now. They get they get subsidies from the government, but they also need help from other people to help keep them going and do all that they want to do, you know, because they do and those so we so good employers like hotel sectors and other sectors should then also help financially support some of these organizations.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

You know, that's how you can give back, especially those who want to invest in downtown. Make it a uh Mauro, if you're listening, dude, make sure like anybody who invests in the contract says you have to put a percentage towards the junto, payuku, abulant and like whatever downtown that's like people are breaking in or people less fortunate that Stichtejunto has a little bit of fun from downtown people to help them get better. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, and I think it doesn't have to only be downtown people. We should all contribute. I think we all yes, I think we should all remain. We get it, we get it. No, and I agree with you that sometimes also, because I agree with that for the private sector too, we can't just complain. We need to be part of the solution, right? We need to participate in the solution. I agree with that. Um, but I think that's one way. I mean, I think the biggest issue right now is um the development side of things. We talked earlier about the tourism, right? And we have the current government right now, or the prime minister right now is saying that we don't want to have a dialogue with them.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

I was actually about to ask you, but that was me. I was waiting for a spot to put it in, but yeah, so what's going on? Sorry, I'm being proactive.

SPEAKER_07 25:42

No, no, but we did, we did, we did have a meeting with um we can interview with him. Yeah, and that was kind of like one of the the the leads on there hasn't been any dialogue, you know, that you all are like kind of like pushing. Yeah. Yeah, I heard that. I heard him say that.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

I heard him say that in your I do I do follow no offense.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

I I have to say this that I know you do follow and also um Ronala as well. Like she were like randomly text a great episode. I'm like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

You watch it. You guys are relevant, you're relevant. I don't know if you're the most popular, but you're relevant. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

I'll give it, I'll vote for you. I'll vote for you.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

What about me?

SPEAKER_00 26:25

He's the one who claimed, he's the one who claimed. I mean, people prove it, so I don't care.

SPEAKER_07 26:29

It is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Hey, listen, it's a lot of consistency, huh? Six years. You can be popular today. Yeah, but in six years, will you be popular? I don't know. We're still here.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Well, talk about consistency. Your relationship as two friends is very consistent, and that's a beautiful thing. It is, thank you. Thank you. Talk about dialogue and collaboration, yeah. For sure. Here it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just sorry, sorry. All relationships have moments where they're the balance. That's the balance. It's how you overcome it. So speaking of that, speaking of dialogue. Yeah, yeah, dialogue. So I do expect the prime minister to tell the truth.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Oh, ooh.

Real Dialogue Or Managed Monologue

SPEAKER_00 27:00

So, so this is what happened. Let me try to shorten it. So we had we had individual meetings as of June last year with hotel general managers and the prime minister, individual meetings, each hotel, like sort of like speed dating, right? Like one-on-one or anything like that. Um, where he basically got to share some of his vision, some of his goals. Um, and I would like to say again, we actually agree with most of those goals, um, but we may not necessarily agree with the method trying to achieve those goals, which is that means that's where dialogue is required. So after that, there was a mention that he wanted to do like a social national dialogue with hotel general managers on some of the issues addressing hotel um Aruba. And for the the biggest goal was to put a pause on hotel room development.

SPEAKER_07 27:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

So here's an example of something where we go, okay, we agree, we understand that goal and we agree with that goal, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:53

A lot of people will agree.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

And a lot of people would agree, exactly. So nothing wrong with that goal. However, what we said was two things. You should also include condo buildings, right? Because they're also popping up like mushrooms all over the place, and they end up becoming hotel business. They are very much, yeah, get rental, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:10

Everybody's like, buy a condo, and then they sell you, but you can also Airbnb and make money, make your money back.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Exactly. So that's one. And the second thing we said is if you're gonna have a dialogue about pausing development, you need to have it with the investor, yeah, not with the hotel general. The hotel general manager is an employee who's in charge of operations of a hotel. They are not the ones who decide whether more rooms are built or new rooms are built or whatever. So you need to sit with the developer that, by the way, your government or another government gave the permit to. So these are developers that already have these permits that the government gave them years ago. And you want to now sit with them to negotiate a way out of them developing in the next few years, which we would help endorse, meaning help make sure those conversations take place. But we're telling you those conversations need to take place with that investor.

SPEAKER_07 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

And not with the hotel GM. That's all we said.

SPEAKER_07 29:01

Do it with the owner, not the employee.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yes, do it with the guy who's actually spending the money.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Because the person who's who's the GM can be. It was a bundle, stop developing a banda. The owner's gonna be like, excuse me. Who are you? I'll find a new pay your salary, I can't. I'll find a new GM.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

So, so so it all we're saying is talk to the relevant people. And then any other topic, and as a matter of fact, we then also invited the prime minister to a meeting with the board of AHATA. So we had this meeting, and I can't even remember what month, October or November, I think. We actually had a meeting. Okay. So it's not true that we haven't sat down, but we are mostly talking about, and I've sat with him a few times, and we had another meeting where I bought a few general managers to the to the Ministerat, to the government office. So we've had a couple of meetings. Most of those meetings, however, instead of being actual social dialogue, have been about how we believe a social dialogue should take place. We believe if it's dialogue and not a monologue, if it's dialogue, then those both parties that are participating or three parties that are participating have a say in the topics, in the dates, in who's invited. Yeah, right? That kind of thing. That's all we're saying. If you're just if you're determining a date, which is like from today to tomorrow, you're determining the agenda, you're determining who's invited. It's not a dialogue in our mind.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

You're not respecting dictatorship. I was about to say that. And also you're not respecting the other people's time or like, hey, cancel whatever you have tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Remember, we are working, creating income, right? We're creating that income for the honest. We're working every day.

SPEAKER_07 30:28

We've been doing it since the 50s.

Infrastructure, Wastewater, And Cruise Days

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yes, we have. You've been busy, but you don't even miss it. Which, by the way, the success of the industry is all these employees that for thousands and thousands of years have given their heart to this industry. We even in August 2025 sent a came with a receipts today. Yes, I came received. Timelines receipts. We gave a proposal. Okay, what is this proposal about? About how we can do the national dialogue, right? And we included the topics he wanted to have meet with meetings with us about, but then we also added topics that we think are of importance, like education, right? Fixing the roads and things like that that we think are of high priority. Because if you want an island where we are transitioning to a higher value and lower volume, then you need their infrastructure to be in good shape. The island needs to have, you know, the wastewater treatment plant has to be updated, the roads have to be in good shape. And we agree with his desire to plant trees all over, right? Like and make Saruba look good. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

But sorry, the the whole water thing, water plant. How long have we been talking about this already?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Yes, I know.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

As in like every It's so urgent. But everybody's I've been hearing this for years now. Yeah. Even like not this past election, one before that, they're already talking about it. Still nothing's being done.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:45

That's crazy. It's really crazy. You see what happens every time we get massive rain. I mean, thank God we don't get rain like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yeah, rain is the danger. Yeah. Rain is the danger. It's a very fragile situation. I'm very careful with words I use because you know, but we are. I know only because you don't want it, you know, people to really, really know what's happening, if you know what I mean. I don't, don't you? Don't you know? Yeah. I got tinfoil has to be a good thing. It's a very fragile. It's a very fragile situation. So our concern, of course, is um when it rains, especially. I will say that they they did create a new company under Utilities NV that is now in charge of this. So I would like to believe that when you have a company whose sole purpose is to take care of this, that there's a chance that they can super focus on it and do it, right? So, well, I all I can tell you is that there's new leadership now since the new government. Okay. So I have to at this point give them a chance.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Right? We got a presentation by them, and the presentation was pretty good. The sad part was that we're starting over, right? Yeah. Because the previous normal government had another plan. So now we have a new plan, but it does sound like a good plan.

SPEAKER_07 32:48

But then how long does it take for the plans to get executed? Because again, it's not like, yeah, you are coming in new, but doesn't mean that we don't have research on how this is supposed to go. So you're not supposed to come in and be like, okay, well, delete all the research. We're gonna do our own research from ground zero. No, people, professionals worked on all this information already, so it's already here. So I don't think it should take you three years before you can actually get something started.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Unfortunately, that's what happens a lot in a row, but same with UTV regulation, right? The previous government was working on UTV regulation, they had a committee, and apparently what I heard was that they were almost that was on the Earth of Adams. From what I heard, they were very close to finally getting to a legislation, and then the new government came and we're starting over, right? There's like a new committee, there's a new, yeah. So these are the unfortunate things that happen when we have government changes. And you know, we we are agreed with you, we wish we would just see action at this point. But the thing is it can't just be action, it has to be proper action. Proper, right? It has to be something that actually makes a difference.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Isn't that isn't that the the 20 bucks every tourist is paying going towards this company?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

It's going to the that company, correct. So they got funds as well.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

That and oh but we had a conversation. We don't have to talk about it now, but we had a conversation on the radio, like when it's like auditing things, like who's auditing the church when the money comes in? Like whole different conversations. Another episode, but um is is there somebody controlling or watching the funds that those 20 bucks is somebody seeing okay, it's actually going through this NVA or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Well, I have to say again, I do have to defend in that sense that the new when the new government came in, that's what they wanted to double check, right? One of the things they wanted to double check is when they come in, there's this new company now, and there's all this money flowing there. Let's make sure it's set up properly, let's make sure the finances are being handled properly. So I that I do understand, and I think we should understand, but we're still sort of waiting right now to see what action is actually being taken in terms of um fixing the actual problems. Who can we talk?

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Who can we talk to regarding that?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

I'll tell you off.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Okay, off camera, good, no problem. We're coming for you.

SPEAKER_07 34:44

The government has been seated for like a year now. Yeah. Over like, I don't think again.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

And sorry we shouldn't be taking this.

SPEAKER_07 34:50

It's been a year already. That's what I'm saying. So I I can't excuse certain things too often.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

I kind of cut you off with that dialogue thing, so that we can go back to the city. You've been cutting off. Isn't that what you do? Isn't that long?

SPEAKER_07 35:01

Thank you. She watches the show. Damn.

2035 Vision: Fewer Guests, Better Service

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Because listen, otherwise, we'll just keep going, and that question is like, well, oh, we're way past that now. So I have to cut in and ask a question.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Absolutely. I'll take it. So no, no, I just wanted to show that we have been absolutely always been willing to have dialogue. All we've said is that if you want to talk about the room development, that has to happen with the investor. We've encouraged them, we've we've said we'll help you set up the meetings. You know, they can fly in, you can fly out, whatever you want, we'll set it up. But every other topic, we are willing to sit down. And then we can, you know, come together and sort of plan how that dialogue would take place. But then what happens is every time it's like he just sets a meeting, sets an agenda, and invites. And we keep going, no, that's not how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be we together determine the agenda. We believe it's still a democracy in Aruba. And that dialogue means that part all the participants get to have a say in the agenda and the days. Um, you know, the agenda and the dates. Make sure it works for that. That's really what's happening. And then he I believe what he's trying to say out there is that we are just saying no, no, no. And that's what I'm hearing him say, and that's just not true. So basically, we're just saying rules need to be followed.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

So basically the perspective of he's trying to portray is like, I'm trying my best to talk to them, but they don't want to talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

That's what he's saying, and we and we don't, and that is not the truth. And I have proof. You have proof, and I have proof, and I can show the meetings that we had with him.

SPEAKER_07 36:15

So we just believe at this point, it just looks like my liar! He's he's playing with you a liar.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

He's playing with words, he's playing with words.

SPEAKER_07 36:28

A liar where I'm from, okay?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

That's a liar. Because think about it, think about it. The word hotel is generic. So when he says hotels no key unique, hotels not a hotel is a building, right? So so I all I'm saying is that the hotel GMs are saying room development, not with me. Talk to the hotel owner for that. So that's a right, they both have the word hotel in there. So I think he's playing with words and he's trying to make us look bad. And I think that politicians, politicians often will do this. They try to discredit you. You know, when they don't agree with you, they try to discredit you, and that's what he's trying to do. And I find that very unfortunate because overall, I've been normally with ministers, we've asked for meetings, we get meetings, we show up at the meetings, they've been pretty good. I feel like they've been open, we're working on solutions together, and we would like to. We we we we would very much like to be part of the conversation. We want to be part of the solution, but we do believe that in a democracy, dialogue takes place in a certain way.

SPEAKER_04 37:27

I almost want to say, like, her father's been doing this in the 50s. Like he's your father's been doing this way before any government, and then you're continuing, you know, kind of like a continuation of it.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

It's a nice thing. It was nice to come back into this industry because actually the first part of my career was not in this industry, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Go watch the old episode, guys. We talked about journalists.

SPEAKER_07 37:45

Yeah. Just before we forget, every Monday and Friday, it's no filter eats. Link in description so you can find out way more information.

Protecting Nature Through Zoning

SPEAKER_00 37:54

But um, but so it is nice to sort of come back to Aruba and sort of care, but we're in a totally different um point right now. My dad, who helped start the tourism industry, would also not be happy with where we're standing today. Yeah. Um, my father, when he was he was sort of first in those days, we didn't call it Minnesota, it was diputado di tourismo, he was the first. Um, but then after that, he was Chazak Heber, right? And as Khzah Heber, he would sign permits, he would actually sign business permits in those days, and like late 50s, early 60s, and early 60s. And he would agree that you need to sort of determine how many you need. You know, he would agree that if you know, if I have too many of video producers, we should not give more permits for more video producers. Do you know what I mean? Or if we have too many hotels, we shouldn't give more permits for hotels or restaurants or whatever, lawyers' bureaus, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

But then I'm thinking about Omar Steve right now. And uh wouldn't that like contradict a little bit with capitalism? Everybody deserves a fair opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

I do believe in free market. Yeah. I do believe in free market, but I do believe that you can design what you want your island to look like, right? So I do believe, and and and speaking for of Le Jouay, for example, there is when we're talking, when a lot of people talk, I believe, about saturation in terms of development, right? Whether it's condos or hotel rooms, most people are talking about Eagle Beach and Palm Beach. I think overall, most people would agree that if you have small hotels in in Orangestad or small hotels in San Nicolas, that that's not a bad thing, right? That small boutiques, that that may not be a bad thing. Um, I think most of the time people are feeling like Eagle Beach and Palm Beach are sort of overdeveloped.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

Maybe a way would be, for example, because you the whole free market situation, and let's say you have 20 restaurant permits and now we've reached the cap. Maybe you put in a way, like, hey, listen, we don't need 25 Italian restaurants. Like 10 is okay. It kind of forces people to come up with okay, there's already 10 Italians, like, okay, what other options do I have to start a restaurant? Okay, there's no I don't know, Korean restaurants, and then you open a Korean restaurant.

Data Over Anecdotes: Spend vs Arrivals

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Well, I think it's uh because you're making me think I'm philosophizing now, right? Like this is what I think because I actually think because it's true, I do believe in the free market, right? I again I believe in a good free market, a good economy, and then with those funds that that generates, the government can help people, right? So I think that in the end, when we talked about how can we make sure that we are basically not controlling the growth of the volume of the tourists, that's how you then also go back and affect what the free market does to address it, right? So so because right now, if we just keep growing volume, growing volume, growing volume, everybody's like, I want a piece of that growing pie. Right. Everybody wants to rent a car you do. Exactly. So everybody gets good point. You know, people are also copy-pasting a lot, right? Like, oh, that looks good. Let me also do that. Exactly. Whereas if you get to the point, and I know this may sound strange to someone. But yeah, but if you get to the point where sort of like it is known that Aruba is, you know, sort of trying not to get the pie to grow anymore, then the investor also has to pivot, right? And uh all through history, investors have pivoted. Things become obsolete. You know, things become obsolete and you figure out something else to do, right? There's many things that were successful for a time and no longer were successful, and then you pivot and you find something else to do with whatever you have available to you. So so the investors in the free market react also to certain shifts, but that can only happen if you make certain strategic, you still need to make strategic decisions for your island. What does my island look like?

SPEAKER_07 41:26

And I mean, I feel like people overthink how investors probably think. They're investors, so they're probably in a whole bunch of other different markets that Aruba isn't even thinking about. So maybe even approaching them would be the best option because they might be like, Oh, okay, well, did y'all hear about this thing? Maybe we should then never mind this the hotel version, but let's just go in this direction.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

For example, well, and yes, because that's why you need to have honest conversations just one-on-one. Just sit with them, say, look, you know, my I I'm having a problem on my island. Aruba needs to catch up, right? There's a lot of things we need to do. Have just have this conversation. Um, so yes, I I I agree that that's true.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

He's too scared to have the conversation, and you have to have a negotiation.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Well, I think, I think, I think they're not easy conversations because remember, they have a legal right, right? The government has given them permits. Okay. So they have a legal right. But so that's when you have to have a very sincere, open egos aside, empathy, yeah. Egos aside, that's the hardest part. Everybody needs to put their ego aside and just go, guys, we have a problem. How do we address it? What what what what do you need? You know, how if I can guarantee you this, would you then be willing to wait four years? I don't know. I'm making up how the conversation turns out.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

Can they say no? Like, for example, if my ghost to one of the hey listen, if they will stop, I need you to stop doing this and this and this. Can the investor go like, nope, I have my I already have my contract in place and I'm gonna continue.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

If they have every single permit in place, yeah, can they theoretically they could probably end up in court, maybe, right? Like, but but if they have everything in place, then they should, yes, then they they but they would proceed, right? But if there may be some permits they don't have, I don't know. Because remember, you need a lot of steps, right? Yeah, you need on halfing, you need, you need, and then you know the DE has to come and check your building, and you know, there's a lot of steps that the government is involved in. Um, so I honestly don't know. It's very hard to give you the details. All I know is that the only way you're gonna resolve it is by sitting one-on-one with the person who wants to invest and already has a legal right to do so. Um, that's the reason, also. If they didn't already have a legal right, it's a totally different conversation, right? You just announce the moratorium and it's over. Yeah, but um, but these are people that got a legal right from the government. Um, so and I know that what the prime minister says is yes, yes, yes, I know that it was given by the government, but now we need to determine what to do for the future. I agree. I agree, but then you, the one who gave the permit, is the one that has to go sit down now with the person you gave the permit to and make this negotiation happen. Accountability, it is.

SPEAKER_07 43:50

So, These, let me ask you this. If you have to look at 20 years from now, what to you does a healthy And a successful tourism module look like.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

It's 2035. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Yeah, 2035. Oh, what will I be doing? What will I be doing? I'll be retired, but where? Let's get it. So I believe it would be that we would have this is my ideal, right? This is not what I think will happen. This is like my dream scenario is that we have limited the number of units we have available on the island, and we have sort of renovated them all into sort of so let's call it almost, I'm gonna be very dramatic, fewer units that are larger and more luxurious. Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Take two rooms, break the wall, make it one wall.

Private Sector Agility, Public Sector Role

SPEAKER_00 44:41

For example, right? Like you take two rooms, you break it down, you have this one. Occupancy 100%. You know, with with a with a much so I'm I again I simplify a lot just for a fact. I'm not pretending that this is science, right? But the um, so you sort of you take two rooms, you now it becomes twice the size, but you triple the price, right? Because it's sort of a luxurious product. So you that's how you then sort of start limiting, you know, who's coming, um, how many people are coming, but you're offering a really good product. But then along with that, we have fixed our roads, we have beautified the island, we have optimal service. Also, remember with with sort of a limited number of guests, you can give better service, right? Because we do have a labor shortage. Yes. So you can give a better service. We have optimal service, we have um a well-organized beach with enough palapas for people to use because vacation rental people are fighting with hotel guests for palapas, right? And then locals obviously want access to because they have every right to it. By the way, I never deny that, um, because it is a public beach. So, but what you want is to avoid fights. So instead of us fighting with each other, which we're doing now, we're all fighting like what is the right thing to do, why aren't we avoiding fights? Why are we, why aren't we coming up with solutions together where we're avoiding not only our fights, but the tourists fighting and the locals fighting with tourists? Why would we not want to avoid that? So create a solution where if you have not as many people at the same time on the island, so all the cruise people and the vacation rental people and the hotel people all on the same beach at the same time, control that volume. Organize palapa area, so a little more palapa area. So they're not all going to the hotels trying to fight for that palapa, but you have other areas more on Eagle Beach, more at Arashi, I don't know where. Like you don't want to overcrowd all of the places, but you want a nice bushiri. Bushiri, they're developing that area now. You know, put some palapas there, the cruise ship people can go there. So my point is it's just you need to have a plan, you need to have a vision, you have to have an organization, and then you have to have the infrastructure to support it so that there's enough for the people who are coming. So in 2035, we would have these nice palapa areas, we would have bathrooms for people, right? Not on the beach in cement areas or not on the white beach. Not like public.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Like so anybody on the beach and good thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Exactly. We'd have, you know, nice parking, not cement. I'm not saying nobody wants asphalt, more asphalt than cement, but just nicely organized so we look neat. Um, and then we have a high level of service because we have the people that can dedicate themselves and we're not sort of overpowered by a healthy high volume of people. And we have a nice luxury product that we're offering. I believe it's possible. I know it sounds like a fantasy and it sounds simple.

SPEAKER_07 47:08

That sounds fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

But I but um but you need incentives to convince them investors to do that kind of direction. One of the things I talk a lot about when we have meetings about investment funds in general on the island, I always say, like, we don't really need more investors in the tourism industry right now, right? Unless they're just like I said, converting sort of a lower quality, let's call it to a higher quality, right? But we do need our investors to solve our problems, you know, like senior living, senior care. On the person, you know, these are the investors we need on parking lots, parking buildings, why aren't we going out, you know, affordable housing, right? These are these are the investors we need, but to attract that, you need to offer incentives because the ROI on those kinds of investments are slower and smaller. So then you need to offer incentives to be so you can attract that investor. So the I believe, even though it sounds like fantasy, I believe it's possible.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

I mean, it doesn't sound unrealistic at all. You have a wall, break it, boom, then we have a bigger room, maybe make it like a two-bedroom hotel room instead of a studio, you know what I mean? Yeah, or install more palapas.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

I'm not an investor, so the investor may tell me that it this is you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 48:13

It doesn't make sense for me financially.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Exactly. I don't know. It's just my fantasy. It's my it's my it's my wish.

SPEAKER_07 48:19

Listen, I do agree with you. I do like the idea, especially working coming from like working in luxury for like nine years. That's kind of a lot of what they want. Like they sometimes even the guests tell you, they're like, these rooms are so small, like it's beautiful, but it's just like it's like crumped, you know, like the living room's right there, this is right there, that my bed is right there.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Like that's how we built it, right? Like, because remember, we our infrastructure is also from when we started in the 50s and the 80s. So it's also at the time, that's what it looked like, right? So that's why it would require a whole new investment now to change that concept. That's why I know what I'm asking for is a lot. Um, but that is how it was built in those days.

SPEAKER_07 48:56

Well, not really, because if we're saying that we want to attract this type of tourism, they are luxury.

Legacy, Leadership, And Doing The Hard Things

SPEAKER_00 49:02

So yes, but if you look at the newer, because the other thing you can tell from the if you look at the hotel data, um the performance data that I publish every month, the ADR has gone up, which is the average daily rate, which is the rate that you actually charge for the sold room average for the island, has gone up. And it's because the hotels that did open in the last years, if you know, are of a higher value. And they do have like a larger, more luxurious room, for example. And they are what we call pulling up our rates, you know, because they have a higher rate, they're able to, the whole market can sort of raise up. So in that sense, it had a positive effect. But as you can see, the occupancy is dropping because we're sharing the same amount of people. But it's not, and so actually, if you look at the hotel sector, they're actually for following the formula that we discussed earlier. They're actually following the formula of fewer people, but higher value. Make more money.

SPEAKER_07 49:50

Damn. Yeah. So, guys, hotels are not our problems.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

They're not to blame. Yeah. It's just like when we go and protest, for example, the visitor and the tourist is not to blame. You know, when you look at even UTVs that people we talk still about, we're still talking about UTVs, talk about how many years. But the um that tourist who rented the UTV, it's not his fault or her fault, right? We're the one who offered it. We're the one that have it available to offer for them to rent. So so we cannot blame them. They're sitting, they're sitting under a palapa on the beach. They're just they just paid lots of money to come to the island and they're just enjoying the beach. It's not their fault, right? We're the ones who have the responsibility to take care of our own place.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

So, what kind of safeguards are in place to like obviously talking about investors and more developments? What safeguards are in place to protect Aruba's environment and coastlines from overdevelopment? Because obviously in the north whole north area, you're gonna get San Nicolas now as well, they're making a new condo by Baby Beach, all that and the whole part going down is Airbnb's.

SPEAKER_07 50:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

And I'm pretty sure at some point that whole area is gonna get even worse. I I kind of told I told uh Dangi about this, like the whole beautification of of that area, and I kind of said like I told him exactly or I said it in an episode, but I told him that you beautify it to for the actual area, or did you beautify it so that the airb the new condos have a higher value of instead of selling it for 200,000, I can sell 400,000. Oh, because there is a tennis court there, there's parking lot there. Like that's how I saw I'm like nice beautification. Now, me as a I'm not sure they had that kind of foresight.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

Yeah, but I can see way fair on the government. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

But anyways, well, I think most of us though, because most politicians are just you know within that term that they're looking, right? Most of the time. Most of the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

So back to the process.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah, I think zoning laws, obviously. So we need good zoning laws, and I know they're working on a new RP RPV. Um, really?

SPEAKER_04 51:51

Oh, because what it's expiring next year.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

In 2025. The one the previous RPV that we had was uh 2020 from 2021 to 2025. So it's literally technically expired. So I know they're working on a new RPV, so zoning laws are important. We haven't seen it yet. We haven't seen it yet, but they are I know they are working on it. Um so that's one. We need more environmental laws.

SPEAKER_04 52:11

I'll be very upset if they say you can go second floors in my area. I'm just saying that right now.

Closing And Accountability Season Tease

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, yeah. Hey, I just I I just want more road, I I just want the roads fixed at this point. The potholes, my poor car. Yeah, but the um, and I think the other thing, so environmental laws, zoning laws, and then what you do have is that the Aruba Conservation Foundation, right? There are more, there are more areas now that are being protected, right? That that that is growing. And that's actually a beautiful thing. Yeah, Aruba has done more and more in protecting. And um, and I know ACF is heavily busy with continued um and what I like about ACF is they do it science-based, right? That the decisions they make are based on scientific research, right? Like on actual facts, which I appreciate.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Not their opinion on emotions.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

It's not just emotion, right? Of course, the emotion is there in terms of the love for nature. Of course, yeah, but it's not the decisions are not based on.

SPEAKER_04 52:59

I hope they don't change anything in my area.

SPEAKER_07 53:01

A lot of areas that they took over, they protected. They did a good job.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

I went to Bonaire, I forget how long ago, a year ago or so, and it was interesting how at the at the I was at like five, six years ago.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

No, no, no, it was like a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

A year to go, and it was very because we went with a boat, right, to go swimming, and they really had a very well regulated, right? There's these buoys, and you're only allowed one boat per buoy, and you can only go there if the swimming there. Yeah, it was a claim but we went swimming there, and and it was very interesting because you could actually tell people like, oh, you need to come quickly because you need to get the buoy, but everybody followed the rules.

SPEAKER_07 53:32

Yeah, we couldn't go just because um there was already a boat there, so they were like non-visible by nang, so we had to go anchor somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

So they really respect it, like because with enforcement you learn to respect the law. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

Yeah, I think a lot of the two islands cursor and bonus saw Aruba and be like, damn, we can't be like that. So let's start in putting laws in place now.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

We need to. But Bonaire did it early, you know? Bonaire's been doing it for a long time.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

Because they really protect their sea, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

And but nature in general.

SPEAKER_07 54:00

Nature in general, they're very big. Even with boy, like they was like, nah, we're fighting for the airport, we fighting for all these type of things, because no. So come on.

SPEAKER_04 54:09

I really hope that they don't they don't um like the other side of the island where it's like very desert. I hope things don't get out of hand in the cominza regalaco se traslang off. I saw somewhere a while ago, maybe last year, on Facebook, somebody was trying to sell a piece of land, that back part of the island. Everybody's like, what the f like what?

SPEAKER_00 54:29

I saw that, but I believe that that part, if the Arupe Vey, I believe that that part is what we call Khroun Khubit, like a nature area and that they're not allowed to. So so I I'm pretty sure if it's the same one that I saw, I'm pretty sure that that was one where you weren't because I do know of a couple of people that bought a piece of land thinking they could develop it, and it turned out it wasn't Khroun Khobit. So that shows you again that a zoning law works.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

Somebody bought a piece of land and then it was Khun Khabit?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Well, they didn't realize it was Khroun Khabit, right? So then they got sort of yeah, stuck with it. Yeah. No, well, no, you have to do due diligence. You need to do due diligence. Like, what wait is I bought it to build a house or something on it, and then you're telling you. No, well, not well, it's commercial development, I think, is the issue, right? That you put that for a hotel or something like that. Okay, okay, but they can build a house. Honestly, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 55:17

Imagine like Saudi Great Land, but Khulkhabit.

SPEAKER_04 55:20

What?

SPEAKER_07 55:21

Yeah, I do know. You can put a shack on it, you know, you can sell like a soda for me. A buff?

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Uh in front of my house, the one the one that I'm building, it's Khulkhabit. So when I found out, I was so happy. I was like, there's only one house you can build the Yaganly across, but in front of me, mounted like cactus is super beautiful. So I'm very happy to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Yeah, and the thing is that I there was a court case recently where the the the it was the verdict was, and again, don't ask me details because I didn't read the whole verdict, but uh so I'm I'm I'm speaking superficially here. But the um that I believe that what it said was that the real estate company does have a an obligation to disclose something like that, right? Like that you need to know if you're gonna buy this, that you cannot develop on it or whatever. Okay, good. So that was a pretty recent um court case.

SPEAKER_07 56:02

Yeah. Damn. Shady stuff. A lot of shady shit.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Well, yeah, it may not have been intentional.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

So, what's what's some other things that maybe we could have missed? There has to be some more information that you could have just not talked about.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

We could go on forever, right? No, I mean listen.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

We got like 20 more minutes.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

What do you worry about?

SPEAKER_04 56:20

We well, we already covered a lot of the stuff. Like the whole tourism, the overtourism, the the part of like protecting the coastline, or like how do we control the kind of people that come in here? How do you think about it?

SPEAKER_07 56:30

What are these about?

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Oh, those are this was to show what I was telling you guys about that the how the big visitor nights of the vacation rental grew by 91% and the hotels 2%. Um and this was just sort of general. I thought maybe you would ask me statistics, and I'm and I was afraid to not know it off the top of the mind.

SPEAKER_04 56:52

I give it everything I need just to make sure I get the right answer.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Here's a good one. Educate us, these educate us. So tourists arrive. This is 2025. Right? Tourist arrivals grew by 6.6%. This is arrivals for overnight stays. This doesn't even count cruise ships because we haven't really talked much about that either. Because that's how you dump a lot more people on the island at the same time, right? But um, so it's about a million and a half people that came in in uh 2025.

SPEAKER_04 57:20

The last I heard of was 1.2. And that was like two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

That was actually more like 2018. Yeah. And um and then cruise ship passengers were 970,000.

unknown 57:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Um hotel occupancy went down by six and a half percent compared to 2024, right? You remember I explained that earlier? The ADR went up by 12%. So this is what I mean where they are actually following. I don't know if by design, but we are following that what we talk about value over volume, where the occupancy is going down, but the ADR is going up. The spending is going higher. The spending is going up. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

But then what's gonna well then your perfect scenario makes sense then? Because then, like, oh look, there's people coming, we can make the rooms a little bit bigger and people, you know, but it's a huge investment to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Like the the money have to so this is what people don't uh appreciate about investors. They're risking their own money, right? They're putting a bunch of money into something and waiting to see if that turns into a work or not. Yeah, exactly. And that takes risk. I mean, I talk to entrepreneurs almost every day who talk about how hard they work. I talked to one yesterday, you know, how much work it is. You guys know. I mean, you you you know, it's not an overnight thing. You work really hard to get to gain some traction, and people forget that, right? And and investors, and this is their job. Their only job is I'm giving you my money to risk it, to do this thing with, and I'm hoping to make money off of it later, right? That's that's their job. That's their that's their salary.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

I like what you just said just now. It takes a long time just to build a traction, but it's an instant to lose everything.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Yes, it is, correct.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

Which is crazy. I'm just thinking about it, I'm just thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Which is why tourism is so fragile.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

That's why tourism is so fragile, right? Like one bad thing can make it. COVID COVID, great example. The so a short term, so hotel ADR 12%, occupancy down 6.5%, short-term vacation rental occupancy. So this is not the ninth now, just occupancy compared to 2024, went up by 13%. But there the ADR went down 11%. So it's the opposite there.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

So you don't want. Exactly. You want exactly you want that to be reversed. So that to me, that what that tells me is that most of the growth in the vacation rental sector from 2024 to 2025 came in the lower value, right? And what you want to reverse that. You want it to grow in the higher value.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

So instead of staying in a hotel, which could be like, I don't know, 500 a night, and I'm being very generous, it's an Airbnb with like, oh look, Shen dollar Panochi.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

No, but it could also be there are also high value vacation rentals, right? I know, but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_07 59:40

But that's the thing with vacation rentals, they they range very big range.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

So different.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

You got everything. Everything is available there.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

So what this show me is shows me is that most of the growth for for it for that to happen, that means most of the growth came in the lower value. And the other thing to know is that when you look at the ADR for vacation rental, you're talking multiple bedrooms.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

When you're looking at an ADR for a hotel, which was like$409, that's for one bedroom. Yeah. But when you're looking at$362 for vacation rental, that's like an average of three bedrooms. So it's really down. So it's like$120, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

So split between three people. So if it's a hundred bucks, how much they are for each person.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

That's why.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:18

Because it could be also six couples, so then it's$50. But they're like, oh, it's cheaper.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Yeah. But that's why I say bedrooms, right? Of course, yeah. And then the only other one, since you asked me, is that this is uh this I can only do for the first half of 2025 because the tourism spending information comes late, right? The central bank releases that late. Um, so I can only look at the first the first half of 2025. The tourism arrivals grew by 3.3%, and the spending grew by 1.6%. And what you really want is for the spending to grow more than the arrivals if you want to really go for value instead of volume. So that's the premise.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:58

So who do we hold accountable for things like this? Is it something that you're saying that the public should be more aware so they can hold the correct people um um responsible? Are we saying then the the the government is who should be able to be like, hey no, we should be more transparent and you know spread this information. Like who should who should we be holding accountable?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

I would say that there is that Aruba is going through a transformation, right? That Aruba is now going to like, you know, hold up. We need to, we know we need to do something different. So I think we need to, it's very hard to to uh to make the community responsible, even though it is, right? The community also says, I don't want this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is ultimately, right? It's through the community that we know that there's the sentiment that exists, right? That there's been overdevelopment and everything. But on the other hand, you need the people who are doing the work to do that work. And I will say that I believe the conversations I've had in my dialogue with the Minister of Tourism, that um there is a vision there, and they're working on that vision, and they're working on a collaborative vision also. So they have a vision of their own, they're communicating and they are asking stakeholders to participate in this conversation, and then they were gonna, you know, um let's say complete the vision. And then with that new plan, I believe we can then create new goals, let's put it that way, right? And then with these new goals, you can start holding people accountable. Okay, um, so I I do have hope. I have I'm I'm very positive right now about the process that the Minister of Tourism and his advisors are are planning and taking very soon, from what I understand.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

Yeah. Okay, there is hope.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:42

Yeah. Fingers crossed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:44

All right. I think we got a lot of information today.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:48

You know what Tisa doesn't do all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

I got one well. If I was gonna ask this earlier, but you know, I like to cut people off so I didn't do it. But um, back to your dad. If your dad was alive today, what would he say about where Ruby is right now? Take your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

My dad would want there to be less antagonism, less um us versus them, less um monologuing, fewer short-term decisions, um, to have a vision, collaborative, long-term plan, and then follow that plan. So sort of, you know, do you know for I used to work at a hotel where we had a lot of certifications, right? Quality certifications and environmental certifications. And what you learn the basics of certifications is you write down what you do and you do what you write down, right? Meaning you commit to it. You just commit to it and you keep doing it. And that's the same with a plan for Aruba. So he would say, Everybody stop fighting, um, get together.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:03

Let's build a structure.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Let's build a structure democratically, um, build a structure, follow that plan and follow it through. There, there's you know, we all are caring too much about sort of personal images. We all want to be right, you know, everybody wants to be right all the time. And at this point, it's sort of like, you know, it's too late for that now, right? Like, let's put all that, that's what I meant with egos aside. Put all of that aside and just say, you know, we have a problem here. You know, let's how do how do we want to figure this out together? What's the solution? And then stick with that plan, you know, because we have been talking a long time about UTV regulation. We've been talking a long time about vacation, rental regulation, and enforcement. We've been talking a long time about what we should do with tourism and nature protection. We've been talking and we just talk and talk and talk and talk. So he would want us to do. My father was of the generation that believed that government he did understand and appreciate that government is there to serve. Government is there to serve. We elect them to serve us, the community. And they have a responsibility towards us. And sometimes that means that they may make a decision that we don't understand yet or we don't like yet. So sometimes you make a decision that may that may make you afraid that they will not re-elect you, for example, right? But that it's the right thing to do for the island, and then the government's responsibility is to then explain it to the community why they made such a decision.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:18

Do you feel like there's anybody right now in government that's doing that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Well, I don't want to, because I try to, uh my work is already too close to politics, but I try honestly, I try to be apolitical because I really am not a fan, you know, of being in the world of politics directly. So so I would that would be very political for me to start. Of course, you know, but are there? Yes. I do believe that there are ministers and politicians that are, you know, there for the right reasons. And I think even the ones that don't always handle it the right way started with a good motive, right? Started with good intentions. But I believe how you handle things and how you communicate with people, then the methods you use to reach a goal also matter.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:57

Consistency, y'all. Please.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

I wish there was a way that's like going back to like continuing something that's good forever. So for example, if MAP started something, that's why during the election time, we were asking all of them, and all of them did give one one answer. Like, was that credit to the person?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Did you write them down so we can check if they're doing them?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:26

I well back.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:28

Guys, go look it back.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:30

We're here to put it on film so you guys can go and check for us, right? Just comment down below. But uh I wish that was like a not a law into place, but like or like you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

If it's the right plan, right? So I understand it when you come in, you want to look at it first. I totally grant them that. I get it, because you don't know if it's a good plan. You need to review it first.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:51

Do you feel it?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

But don't drop it just because it was another party.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:54

Correct. And do you feel like because button, boting at the all those other small groups, but in a I feel like you guys are your own little thing over here, the government is over here, you try to find a way to work.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

We want to work together. So here's another example right now, talking about dialogue. We were invited to another dialogue this week. And the atya ahata, and I don't want to speak for them, but atya, ahata, kua, and and what, which is the contractors, and we got together and said, yes. So again, yes, we want to participate, but if we're going to discuss a topic and you're sending us documents to read, give us time to read the documents. So don't send me the documents yesterday and expect me to come tomorrow, right? Because we do have meetings all day, we do work, we do our business.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

You guys have free time, right? So the executive.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

So that's all we're saying. So we want to we want to be clear. We're none of us are saying we don't want dialogue. All we're saying is give me time to pre to to you know check out this topic and check out the documents. And if there's a new law, I want to read the law, don't present it to me in a meeting and I have to say yes or no. You know, send it to me, let me read it, sit with my lawyer, get some advice, and then you do a meeting. That's all we're saying. A proper system is all we're asking for.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:01

I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Yeah, just to be fair. We believe that our our we honestly believe that our requests are rational, normal requests. A 1,000. No, it's sort of like give me time to read the crazy. Right, but that's right. They make you feel like that. Yeah, let me just remind you I'm not crazy because that is normal. So we do the employers' organizations or commerce organizations, we do often collaborate on things like that because sometimes it's easier to sit down together and say, do you agree, do you not agree? You know, and we do work together. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:28

Like you guys, this is a better way to ask it. Do you think if all you guys sat together as like imagine one big board? And do you think better decisions and faster decisions can be taken if you guys sit together and ran the island compared to a government?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Oh, if private sector, well, well, I of course, from my perspective, I always believe private sector run things. Everybody knows that government doesn't know how to do maintenance, for example, right? Like in private sector, we do in private sector we plan and we and then we follow through, right? And then we do maintenance, and then we so we get our hands on the back. I will yeah. So I always, as a matter of fact, in the vacation rental discussion we've had for years about enforcement of the taxes, people in the private sector and the vacation rental business have said to them, let me do it for you. You know, pay me a fee and let me do it for you. I'll do it for you, right? So of course we're gonna believe that the private sector is better at sort of management and making decisions and getting things done because we are we are only working, looking at efficiencies, productivity, positive results, right? What we want is results. And this is what we mean, we mean the dialogue. What I've said, I what I've said also is the advice that we've given to the government or the prime minister on how to hold dialogue, I would give to him if I worked for him too. It's I'm not giving that advice because of where I work now. I would give him the same advice if I worked for him, because it's about how do you do a process for it to be productive. Okay, and that's how the private sector thinks. Though I know if we I think we would get really frustrated though, if we would have to be in charge of public sector.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:54

Listen.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:57

Would be different.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:58

Yeah, but I think it would be so much better and faster decisions can be taken because everybody has an expertise in their area. Politicians, no offense to anybody, you guys can always come here and defend yourself. But all you know is politics, laws, which is great. You can just you can let's say a ta aha, everybody can sit together, you guys have data, you guys have you know make fast decisions, and everybody is surrounded by lawyers and let them advise you, hey, but it's a bon idea, but politicians, all you know is politics, or not not many of them come from the private sector.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:34

They don't even not all of them even know politics correctly either.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Or business one-on-one. But I will I will defend them now a little bit. Go for it. Because I will say that um I will agree that they haven't necessarily run a business, right? So understanding those uh deficiencies, productivity, and all of that. Yeah, a lot of them haven't, exactly, not all. But but but you can be an intelligent person that can do their homework and surround yourself with good advisors and then make proper decisions based on the right amount of input that you take. You know, what we want to avoid is that you take decisions not based on on actual data, but on stories. That's what we don't want. What I see too often is that they come and tell me, no, but you know, yesterday this lady told me, okay, wait, that's not facts, right? That's a story. That's anecdotes. We don't know. Well, yeah, right. I don't know the whole story, right? Exactly. So what what we do so if you take a scientific approach in terms of you take in data, then you get good advisors and you listen to all of them, and then you make a decision, and you're an intelligent person that has a good heart. And I do believe, like I said, most of them, I have to believe that ultimately they want to help the island. If you keep focusing on helping the island and not just your own career, right? But you're helping the island and you're making all that decision based on that, they can do it. They can do it.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:47

I mean, it's it's like I think we had this conversation with Randall van Dreck last week, but it was based on everything is not you have to physically know how to how to do the job. It's about sorry, yeah, it's about really knowing how to manage people, how to put the right person in the right position to a job. Which is also private sector. If I can't do it, I'm not gonna fight and be like, oh, let me be the one to do it. No, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

There's a professional in this field. And this is what I hear in public sector a lot too. I every time we talk about enforcement on something, whatever the topic in public sector, I always hear no matter which department, they go, I don't have enough people. I'm like, how is it possible that Aruba has more public servants than any other country per capita, but we don't have enough people? So then that to me, all I can conclude without seeing it myself, is that the the people that you have working in that department are either not productive, right? They're I don't know, they're either not productive, which I can't believe, or they're just not not positioned in the right seats, right? Like you were just saying. So it's all about, but if your revenue comes from here or your productivity comes from here, that's the area you need to load up with your with your productive employees. So this is a this is something we can't figure out. It's very hard for us to understand that very proper spending.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:56

Did I talk about the same thing as well?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

By the way, they have a lot of money right now. Yep. The government has a lot of money right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

Hopefully, they don't hopefully they don't have to.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

They do they do have to pay off debt. They do have to pay off debt, obviously.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:08

But what money do they have now? Like, where's this money from? This is from the surplus?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

There's a lot of surpluses. So the government budget, there's the so the the tax revenue is much higher than they budgeted, right? Um, so the a lot more taxes were paid than they expected. Um that's good for them. Yeah, exactly. And and um and then there's surpluses, you know, SD Bay has a surplus, as it v has a surplus, the the the you know, uh, you know, all the other sort of semi-public or public entities have surpluses also.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:33

Okay, so it's kind of like again, going back on Randall, like even he said there was they used to have like I think uh a contract with expert uh company paying 600,000, for example. Like, why are we paying this much for the they cut the spending and give it to um another sticking? Yeah, oh and they give it another sticking to cook food. So a catering service, we're paying catering service 600,000 a year. I'm like, uh no, I'm gonna pay this stick thing who actually needs money for the same thing and for half the money.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

The thing is that I don't know those. It's hard for me to comment when I don't know. I don't know the details. Yeah, see, this is what I don't want to do. This is what they want to do, and this is what I don't want to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:13

But what I mean is like what I mean is like you use the money you have, the surplus you have efficiently. Like make sure you put it in the right places that actually gonna produce something or yes help something in the area. Like you're not a band-aid.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

I I yes, I get you. I agree with that. We know band-aids, we need actual solutions, and I believe Stichting Hunto is a great example of an organization that is working on real solutions. Again, long-term, it's not sexy, right? It's it's not a fun area, it's it's hard work, it's hard work, and it has a long-term goal, but it's the right goal, yeah, the right method.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:44

All right. You got anything else you want to add?

SPEAKER_07 1:14:46

I think that's it. Shark that I I didn't even let you speak, no? No, this is good. This is good, okay? Because again, we need the people to understand certain things, and who better from someone from your caliber in your area to really bring these these conversations forward to like because again, we've had we're the island, and you've even called us out for you know spreading the wrong information or like yeah, you know, saying your guests say things you don't know, of course. So you're just standing on certain things. That's why I brought receipts, and that's why you're here today. So, by all means, we very, very much appreciate again. Like we always say, do not be a stranger. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:24

You're always welcome so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

No, I appreciate you guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:27

I think I want to say almost like every six months you should be coming back. Just to get up to the city. It goes quickly.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

You're gonna get tired of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:34

Listen, I'm telling you, like, we just said like two and a half years. It feels like you were on this show like last year or a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

It it flies.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:40

Yeah, 100%. 100%. So, Lisa, thank you, thank you once again for coming back. Um, we hope to see you. You know what? I think you should come back at the end of the year, okay after or beginning of next year, after our political season. So November. So November, December.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

Oh, you're doing okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:59

So every every year now, every year, November, December is a political season. We say that every all the ministers and some politicians and say, What have you done this year? That's basically the name of the show. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:12

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:13

And then we just hold them accountable because we already did it last year, and we're gonna look back and then come back this year and hey, that's great. So we're gonna hold you accountable and then we'll bring you, we'll bring some, we'll bring anybody else that wants to come, and then that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

I'll have to make time to to listen, watch all of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:33

That's okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:34

You got this.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:35

All right, guys. Thanks for watching this episode, and we'll see you next week. Ayo, bye.