Welcome back to the channel. I'm your host for today, Claire Headley, and I am joined by my dear friend, Phil Jones. Thanks so much for joining me today, Phil. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Claire. It's nice to be here and talking again. It's been a little while, but this is nice.
Speaker 1:It has, yes, and so I figured we could just start off with as we were talking about before this. We have never had really a one-on-one in-depth conversation about your time in Scientology, so perhaps we could just start with a summary of how you got in and go from there. How about that?
Speaker 2:That's fine. I mean most of my history in Scientology. I was public but I did do a short stint on staff in the early 70s, but I got into Scientology back in the late 60s. I was in high school. I always try to remember I can't remember if I was 15 or 16 because it was right either just before my birth or just after, but I was in high school.
Speaker 2:There were a couple of Scientologists that came into that little town in Ontario, canada, that I lived in at the time, and they did a lecture, a Narconon lecture at the time, because they didn't have any of the drug-free world stuff in that. So it was a lecture they did on Narconon and afterwards they had food there and I was a teenager. So I hung around and I started talking to these guys and they got my interest up. So they invited me to a conference that was taking place in Toronto, I think a week or two down the road, uh, and the conference was I, I I can never remember the guy who started Narcon on the uh, uh, uh Hispanic guy, um, and, and Ruth Mitchell was there as well and they had a pretty big crowd. They had rented a hall. I went in and sat through it. I mean I wasn't that interested in that part of it, but afterwards one at least. I think it was one of the people who had come to do the lecture in my town, little town. He had mentioned that there was a group in the the town of a Scientologist that get together once a week, maybe half a dozen or a dozen people that that would just kind of gather at somebody's house. So they kind of connected me up with those people and while I was still in school I would go there one evening every week and um and have food and and they would do group processing. And group processing is basically it's like auditing, but it's when you do it for the group it's usually pretty light touch, but when I look back on it was very hypnotic kind of stuff. It was like you know, close your eyes, put yourself into a sort of a reverie or a relaxed state, pretend, think of you're walking into a body of water and then you're walking and when you wake up you're going to be fully refreshed. It was, it was hypnotism, totally and um.
Speaker 2:So I I did that, I went out there for I don't know, maybe just almost a year, and then I finished high school and I headed out west. A friend of mine, uh, and I, we, we just hopped on motorcycles and headed out west and then I worked. I went up to the yukon and I worked for a year and saved up a bunch of money. And then I I got a motorcycle in Vancouver. I took a ride into the States, california, and then worked my way across the States and back up to Ontario and then shortly after that I was kind of deciding what to do Now.
Speaker 2:Before I had run into Scientology, my plan was to go to university. My best friend in high school both of us were going to go and do film school and he ended up going to university and studying film and he got a career in that industry out in California. I ended up not doing that. I got sidetretracked by Scientology. So when I got back into town, instead of going into university which was kind of my plan, but I still had it in my head I thought, well, let me go in and see what's going on with Scientology and I went into Toronto.
Speaker 2:The weird thing was, when I look back on, when I walk was walking up to the, to the org, the organization. I found it hard to just even approach it. I remember it was like something in me was fighting it. I I don't know what it was, but it was like walking through molasses, literally physically, and I I sort of got close across the road and I sat down on a stone wall and I was sitting there for almost a half an hour before I got the strength up to go across the road and into the building.
Speaker 2:One of the guys that was there, he said there was a group of them all watching me wondering do you think he's going to come in or not? Anyway, I went in and I asked for one of the guys that I had met the previous year and he had routed me on to one of the introductory courses. Oh yeah, I forgot it. The year before I had done a really small course, okay, at the org, like it was $15 or something. It was anyway. So I went in. This was 1972. I guess probably around June I went into the Toronto Org which was at 124 Avenue Road, an old, old funeral home, all dark, dark wood, dark red carpets. It was just gloomy, and back then almost every Scientologist smoked. So here you have this dark, smoky building that was just like anyway.
Speaker 1:Reaped of smoke to boot. Oh, it was terrible.
Speaker 2:It was really bad. But anyway he got me onto this on one course. But anyway he got me onto this on one course, one of the smaller courses to start, and I remember starting to read the stuff on this course. The course was the HQS course, which is Hubbard Qualified Scientologist, like one of the basic basic courses and you learn stuff like some of the policies, the ARC Triangle, affinity Reality Communication. You do some TRs training, routines for communication and that kind of stuff. But I remember reading through the stuff and not getting it at all. And I said to the supervisor I said I read this stuff and I read it over and over. I'm not getting it. And I remember clearly she said keep reading it and you'll eventually understand it. And you know she said keep reading it and you'll eventually understand it. And you know the the. When I look back on that it's almost like your brain physically twists to understand Hubbard. It's like there's a. I swear there must be a physical change in the brain in order to understand what he's saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, make, make it make sense, kind of thing, in order to understand what he's saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like make it make sense kind of thing. Exactly, exactly, right. You have to make it make sense, almost, and you have to twist your brain into making it make sense Good way to put it so and eventually it did After a little while. And then I just carried on and I had saved up because I was working in the Yukon, I worked in a mine, I had a fair bit of money. I had recently had an inheritance from my grandparents, a little bit from my uncle. My dad had left some money for us for a college fund, so I walked in there and I had I don't know the equivalent of today's money, maybe $150,000 to $200,000.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of money for somebody in 1972. So I was like full time. And then they sat me down in front of a pretty girl registrar and she said well, you need to buy this. I said, oh, in order to get up the bridge and get clear, because I came in for clear. That's what I wanted to get. I'd read that in the book and clear was what I wanted the perfect memory, perfect eyesight, you know, perfect computation ability and all that.
Speaker 1:Perfect, perfect, human, with no, no emotions.
Speaker 2:I yeah, I didn't think about that part of it, but I I wasn't in, like a lot of people get in and they go. I wanted to help others. I wanted to be an auditor and audit. None of that. All I wanted. I just want to go clear. That's all I want, and throughout my entire career in Scientology I never had anything other than just wanting to get to that.
Speaker 1:And key question did you, by the way?
Speaker 2:Get clear yes.
Speaker 1:I got up to.
Speaker 2:OT4.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a whole other story, but I did a video on that last week. Oh, I'll check that out, yeah, oh yeah, it's all about the wall of fire and body thetans and stuff like that and of course I will link to your channel as well in the video description.
Speaker 1:Yes, for sure.
Speaker 2:That'd be awesome. Yeah, yeah, and it describes my whole journey through the OT levels and exactly what I went through and why I stopped after I finished doing OT4. So, anyway, here I was in 1972, sitting at the registrar's desk and she's saying and you need to buy this. And I'm thinking, oh man, that's $500. She said you need to buy this, that's $1,000. And you need to buy this auditing and that's going to cost you da-da-da-da-da. And after you know I'm going, oh okay, and you know, anyway, after a while she says she leans, she says how are you paying for this? I said, oh, you don't take checks.
Speaker 2:She got up and she ran out of the room, came back with the dissemination secretary, her boss, basically, and he says what's this? I understand about you wanting to write a check or going to get cash or whatever. You don't want to write a check or something. I said I don't know, how do you accept payment? So, anyway, I paid for it all. I paid for like a ton of stuff and I was getting audited full time, full-time, full-time, wow. And I had met Willie around that time. Willie and, for those who don't know, is my wife. She's been with me. We've been together now since August 9th 1972.
Speaker 1:Wow, and, by the way, hats off to you both. Willie is an amazing, beautiful person. I love you bothly, yeah, and and you are one of the rare statistical anomalies of a relationship that survived scientology so yeah, just saying well, we were, we were terrible scientologists really in the scheme of things.
Speaker 2:I always considered myself a terrible scientologist, but, um, we got together around that and I was getting full-time auditing and so and sorry.
Speaker 1:Just so, just to clarify Willie was already in Scientology.
Speaker 2:Yes, she was. We met in Scientology. She was, she had arrived, she was. She came from Winnipeg is where she was born. She came to Toronto because there was not really any Scientology in Winnipeg at the time.
Speaker 2:So we were getting together and we were really like, right off the bat, we just hit it off. And then one day, I guess about a month into our relationship, the executive director called us into his office and he had like four of his cronies standing behind him and he said you guys have to break up. And I was like what, uh no, uh yeah, because it was apparently my relationship was a distraction for the auditing. Now, oh my gosh, I I know it was awful, so, um, I mean, we argued it, but it was like either that, or you're out, you know, or whatever. I can't remember what they threatened us with.
Speaker 2:But so we kind of broke up and um, for a short time anyway, and we got back together when I thought this is really crazy. I uh, you know, we uh, um. We ended up getting back together again. Um, and then another crazy thing from this executive director one day we were back together, he called us into his office again and this is even weirder he had all his cronies standing behind him and he says, okay, so I need to know everything about your, your sex life details. I want to know everything. I'm sitting in his office going what. I'm not going to tell you any of that.
Speaker 2:He says no we need to know everything. And I'm looking up at all these these guys standing behind him and it's like what it was. Anyway, I stood up, I said, willie, we're out, we're out of here. And we walked out of the room. I didn't know whether they're going to kick us out, declare us. I didn't care. At that point it was just nuts. Actually, the craziest thing is we still hung around, we still did Scientology. It wasn't a big enough red flag for some reason.
Speaker 1:But I still had a lot. Hey, we all have that 2020 hindsight, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a million of those ones, but yeah, I had a lot of stuff paid for still. So it, and you know, eventually that kind of ran out. But and during and in that time I on staff for I wasn't on staff I signed a two and a half year contract, but I don't think I was on the full two and a half years, cause I remember I had a freeloader's debt, meaning when you go off staff before your contract is up, they want to charge you some money for any of the courses you did, and I can't remember.
Speaker 1:I think it was like $900 or something, because I had paid for most of my stuff anyway, which back then was a lot of money.
Speaker 2:It was a lot of money, I know, I know I just paid it stupidly. But so then Willie and I moved out west. We moved to Calgary and during that first part of the 70s, when we were kind of right in, living right near the org, we were very active in Scientology. But when we moved out to Calgary, even though there was an org out there, we never went in the org, never did service, never had any desire to. And then after I think it was two and a half to three years, we moved back to Ontario. And now by that let me back up a little bit. My, when I was in, originally my, my mother didn't like Scientology and she knew that it was just a con for money. So she went one day she sent my older brother in to kind of get me out, find out what I'm doing and get me, get me out.
Speaker 3:Um.
Speaker 2:I mean, we were really young and still pretty much living at home. I I'd moved into the city and just rented a room. So my brother came in and and you know, he said, you know what's said, what is it? And because I was never in it to get other people in it, I just told him I said it's not for you, it's just what I'm doing. You go home, just go home. And so, yeah, terrible Scientologist. So anyway, he hung around and there was a little conference, little talk or a little thing that evening that I went to. Anyway, he came in and I guess some registrar got a hold of him and within 10 minutes of talking to this registrar he was more gung ho than I ever was in my entire Scientology career.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:He got so fixated that he's been in. He worked for OSA for 20 years. I mean he's like anyway, he got my sister in as well, my sister's OT8. She's also worked, done a lot. She's never been on staff but she worked externally for osa for many years and still does.
Speaker 1:actually wow, and your brother is still into this day as well yes, they're both in my brother, my sister.
Speaker 2:They've 10, live 10 minutes from us and we've been here about five and a half years and a one time I ran into my brother a couple of years ago briefly and he wouldn't talk to me. Aside from that, I never see them they wow, they will they?
Speaker 1:they blocked us on all social media and all that kind of stuff, yeah, which, of course, is not surprising, but it's nonetheless every.
Speaker 2:To me, every single story of disconnection is complete and utter heartbreak yeah, yeah, it's um, but they were both more gung-ho than I ever was when we moved. When willie and I moved back to Toronto, we moved initially back to my hometown and we lived there for a few years and never bothered to go into the city to do Scientology. And then one day my sister called and said that her husband was offering me a good paying job in the city, but we'd have to move into the city. Was offering me a good paying job in the city, but we'd have to move into the city. So it was good money and I thought, okay, well, we'll move. So we moved into the city and there was this little community of townhouses in the city where all almost all the people who owned them were Scientologists, and probably 80% of those Scientologists were Guardian's Office people.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:Guardian's Office were all the original bad boys. It's OSA in the past like before.
Speaker 1:OSA was the Guardian's Office, yeah same book that's now been recovered as Office of Special Affairs. Yeah, Dirty Tricks. And responsible for the largest infiltration of the US government in its history.
Speaker 2:And Canada. They infiltrated the RCMP, which is like our FBI. They infiltrated the tax department, the provincial police. They infiltrated, yeah I mean, and all those guys got busted and none of them went to jail but they got huge fines. I think they got fined like a quarter of a million dollars or something. And the church itself was the only religion ever convicted of a crime in Canada.
Speaker 2:Actually, not a religion, I don't think they're not recognized in Canada, but I'd have to go and look it up. The not a religion, I don't think they're. They're not recognized in Canada, but I'd have to go and look it up, the details of it. But all those people we knew they were kind of GO people but they never, ever confided in us because I think they kind of knew that I was like, yeah, I'm not going to mess, I'm not going to be in that boat. So we didn't know anything until that raid went on.
Speaker 2:Willie had actually this was early, this was early 80s, early somewhere in the early 80s and she had joined staff at the time when she and she had a doctor's appointment one day and she left the org and within five, 10 minutes of her leaving, busloads, a hundred police descended on the org in a raid and that's the Canada's version of when. When Scientology was raided in the States, it happened also in Canada. And one of our geo neighbors two doors, three doors, down right next to the anyway, they're all Guardians Office people. I could have a story for each one of them.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:But they had all the really high security files from the Guardians Office stored in their basement.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:But somehow the police knew that and they raided the building as well. So it was a big mess.
Speaker 1:Wow, so this was at the same time as the FBI raid in LA.
Speaker 2:No, no, this was later.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:I think the raid in the States was what 77?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. 77, maybe 78.
Speaker 2:I think this was until 80, 81 or something.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, of course, none of this is in Scientology's history.
Speaker 2:No, no, I'd have to look it up and see when the exact date was, but it was early 80s, I think, before that happened, which is amazing when you think of it, because if Scientology was raided in the States for infiltrating government and then, three or four years later, they're still doing that in Canada, don't they ever learn a lesson? They don't, scientology never learns the lesson.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, completely, and I'd have to look what year the Guardian's Office was rebranded as Office of Special Affairs. It would be interesting to see if it was before or after, but nonetheless, yeah, it would have been after this, because it was still considered the Guardian's Office. Oh right, but whatever year it was.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure whether it was anywhere between 79, 81, 79, 81, somewhere in there. I think I'd have to look it up and see the date. It's been a long time since I kind of uh was around that, so, um. So during that 1980s we were living close to and my sister lived like right across the hall her, her and her husband and they were big pushers of getting up the bridge and that's when probably I did the most bridge, where I got up to OT4. Initially I went to LA, had some issues there that didn't kind of work, it was just funky and I almost got declared one day when I was there. Damn it, I wish he would have declared me, I was yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was just a weird situation and I just had an argument with the, the MAA, which is the ethics officer, and he said, no, you do that, I'll declare you so anyway. So I went home. I said, screw this. I said, oh, I'm out of money, I'm going home. So then I, I went to the UK, to St Hill instead, which is where you can also do the OT levels, in case people are on here and don't know that Now I didn't go right away, I went 87 or 88. I went to St Hill.
Speaker 1:I was there then, no way.
Speaker 2:Yes, what year hill? I was there then. No way, yes, you were what year.
Speaker 1:I was there until um september 88 is when my family moved to the us, so I was but 87, 88. I was, on course. I was, you know, doing the student hat, which is of course, the advanced, where you learn everything about study technology in great detail. But my uncle, my uncle was the director of training there, franco Sullivan, yeah frank. I remember the name frank, but I don't remember her last name yeah, he was kind, of you know, probably five, five, nine, five, ten dark. Was he black?
Speaker 2:was he a briefing course in that part? Yep, oh, okay, I met him.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's and that's amber's dad, by the way, amber, my cousin, amber o'sullivan, who, of course, is still in the sea organization, and I was there for six months, so we must have seen each other during that time yeah, isn't that crazy I was always over on the the ao side.
Speaker 2:You know session and stuff did you know um?
Speaker 1:did you know hugh witt?
Speaker 2:yeah, new hugh he's.
Speaker 1:He's my, my God, I can't even believe. And he is. He's the person, by the way, who, when I was called to testify as an expert witness in the Danny Masterson trial, he was called by the defense as the counter expert, which is ridiculous because he he never even knew where, where I physically worked for 14 years. But yeah, no, he's my stepfather. He legally adopted me in 1985.
Speaker 2:That's just too bizarre. I was there for six months, from January till June.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I think it was 88. I'll have to look it up and see, but I because I know it wasn't 86 because I was in India in 86. So it was either 87 or 88.
Speaker 1:But either one, I was there Either one you were there. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's bizarre. Well, so when I had finished OT4, no, at the end of OT2, I was not doing well. I hated it. Up to now. I was like, in fact, none of the OT levels did me any good. I was feeling worse after each one. So I finished OT2 and I told them. I said you know like I feel like crap. And they say, well, just get on to OT3. Anyway, so they said you need to go and do a talk in the academy for the briefing course students. So I think that's where I met Frank.
Speaker 2:I went. I refused, for it took them a day to convince me. I said no, I what am I going to say? I feel like crap. I go in there and say I feel like crap after doing this level in there and say I feel like crap after doing this level. Eventually they just pushed me to do it. So I went in and I stood up in front of the course room and I had no idea what to say. So there's a thing just for your listeners in Scientology you've got the E meter and the needle moves on the E meter and supposedly when you find something, the meter, the needle falls, and sometimes it'll fall. It goes so far that it kind of gets to the edge of the dial. So there's a thing called a tone arm that brings it back up onto the dial. So there's a whole thing in auditing that the more tone arm action you get, the better you're auditing, the more auditing you're getting. It means right.
Speaker 2:You're moving you, you're moving through and and handling things and uncovering things and unburdening things right and he says you're getting charge off the case, meaning that because you're dealing, I guess, with a meter, the electrical and whatever, somehow he considers that the reactive mind has actual charge on it and he calls it charge. So so I got up front of the academy and I stood up there and I said so I just finished ot2 sure got a lot of ta off the case, thank you very much. Out I went. That was my speech. I don't know what they thought about that we're got a lot of ta off the case because I was just banging that thing back and forth during it. It was a grind. The whole thing of OT2 to me was a grind.
Speaker 2:Did not enjoy. It Felt worse after Same with OT3. I started OT3 after that, I sat down and I started auditing and I mean I read the stuff and I was sort of still buzzed from OT2. So I didn't really kind of like people say how did you react? I was like kind of in a stunned mode after OT2. So I wasn't really. I read the stuff and kind of go, oh, okay, but I was kind of like not with it really.
Speaker 2:Three, and you have to kind of look at a body, thetan being outside of you, and you put your attention there and you get a read on the meter. But you know, I tell you, if you look, if you put attention on any part of your body, you're going to feel some sensation there. So you go, oh, and you got one-handed on your meter. You're going to get a read at some point by putting attention somewhere on the body, right. Well then what you have to do is you have to sort of make yourself think that you're communicating with some entity outside of yourself, in your body, telepathically, telepathically. And I don't know what it was about doing that, but it was like it. It just sent me for a loop, it it made me dizzy, actually almost nauseous, and I was like this is nuts, what the hell, and I put my stuff down, I packed it all up. I went back to see Isla. You remember Isla?
Speaker 1:I do Isla Pride.
Speaker 2:Yes, isla Pride, she was the director of processing. She was the person who kind of managed all the guys that are auditing on their OT levels.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And I told her. I said I'm not going to do this, I can't do this. It just I said it just made me feel awful, just, I mean just, whatever you have to do in that, oh no, you have to go back in. No, they don't ask if you're going to go back. And then I think I was sent or somebody else came, maybe it was. Anyway, there was a couple of people that were handling. Anyway, I was in, Then I was in a room I don't remember whether there's another auditor or somebody. Anyway, I didn't go, I didn't get auditing when it was in the room, I was just talking and they were basically almost insisting that I go back in and do this Right.
Speaker 1:Because, of course, the premise in Scientology being well, obviously you're in the middle of something, so the only solution is to keep doing it, and on top of that, ot 1 to 3, you're in the non-interference zone. So you cannot get anything other than getting through to being done with those levels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And so I mean, eventually they convinced me, I go, you know what? I'm over here in another country, I've paid for it, fine, I'll just go back in. So I started doing it again and I got a little bit more of that sort of disorientation and trying to anyway, but eventually it was just a grind and I started grinding, it, grinding, grinding, and I was on for months. I did literally thousands of hours. It just was never ending. Wow and um, I and in fact the supposedly the end phenomenon, the end result of OT3 is no more body thetans.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But it was never ending for me. I just told them. I said look, this is just going to go on forever and I think I'm done. You know, I think I'm done with it. So they let me finish, even though I said I still had body thetans, so anyway. So they said well, get on OT4, because I had paid for OT4. So I get an OT4 and then it's all about more body thetans, which the thing that strikes me about that is when Hubbard came up with OT3 and he released.
Speaker 2:Well, he announced it in 1967. Yeah, in 1967. And then he wrote it all up and he released OT3, which is so I guess. When he made this up, he thought well, yeah, we'll get rid of body thetans, and so. But then he must have realized that now what am I going to sell them? Right, so you have to. Oh, maybe there's more body thetans, get onto OT4, and there's more body thetans, and these are the ones that are drug on the whole track, meaning past life drug addicts or whatever. So I got onto OT4 and I go okay, fine, and for me it was another grind, I was just kind of doing it and not really. And for me it was another grind, I was just kind of doing it and not really, and it's supposed to have taken one intensive which is 12 and a half hours to finish OT4. It's supposed to be a fairly short one.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyway, 12 and a half hours is up. Nope, still not done Buy another intensive Okay.
Speaker 1:And, of course, not to say the obvious, but OT1 to 3, the operating thetan levels 1 to 3 are solo, so those are the ones that you're doing yourself At that time. Ot4, though, is you're with an auditor.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good point. Yeah, I should have mentioned that. No, no.
Speaker 1:It's neither here nor there, it's still body thetans. Nothing you said was inaccurate. I just, you know, it struck me because OT4 and OT5 are both with an auditor, and then, of course, you go back to solo on OT7. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I got through my second intensive and still not done. Wow, so I got through my second intensive and ran and still not done. Because it's like you never can be done, because you're not really auditing beings anyway.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You're just making all this stuff up, right, so anyway. So I finished and I said, look, I've got no more money. And they said, well, we'll let you audit. On finish, you only got a few hours left, so we'll give it to you. On review, which is 750 bucks an hour at the time that's what they wanted to charge me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh man, so two hours, 1500 bucks. Fine, let's just get it over with. Two hours, three hours, four hours. And I said, ok, I'm done, I feel great. Actually, I in my head, I'm going, I'm not doing any more of this, I said, and I said, oh, I think I'm done, I have no more charge on this case, on this OT4 case at all. And she said, well, you have to have a win. I said, oh, that's a win for me. Well, you have to have a win. I said, oh, that's a win for me.
Speaker 2:And I just insisted that that was my win. And the one thing in Scientology is you can't invalidate a win. So if you kind of insist that you had a win, they have to eventually go along with it. And so I just kept saying, oh no, I yeah, I don't get those blowout wins, but I know that I finished this. Yeah, I don't get those blowout wins, but I know that I finished this. There's no more charge on this. So, anyway, they sent me to the examiner, which is examined. Scientology is not where you write things down and answer questions. You just pick up the cans on an e-meter and the examiner just looks to see if your needle is floating.
Speaker 1:Yes, and looks at your facial expression, yeah, so I kind of body language and all that yeah exactly, exactly, and I so, and I knew the trick.
Speaker 2:How to make a needle float is you got to sit as still as you can not move because any movement's going to make that needle jump.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And then I just tried to look anyway in the few seconds went by and the examiner said your needle's floating, thank you very much. Would you like to write a success story by? And the examiner said your needle's floating, thank you very much. Would you like to write a success story? I will, because I want to get out of here. And after that Willie and I talked and we said look, let's. We were still. The crazy thing was we were still Scientologists in our head. For some reason. We still believed, but we talked about it. We said we're not ever going to do anymore. We're not putting any more money into this. Whatever happens, we're done with it.
Speaker 1:And so this was 87, 88.
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't have that conversation until a bit later but because of that and other things that had happened and whatnot. But after that in 89, we moved to Florida. We moved to get near Flag, we got green cards moved down there and we lived in Florida for 25 years. Never did a course at Flag. We did one really short, like one of those little afternoon courses on finance and conditions or something.
Speaker 1:It was on finance.
Speaker 2:But I almost got declared for that one too, because at the end of it you have to do a demo to see if you you know to apply this stuff to your life. And I said, ok, well, I'll come back in about three weeks when I apply this finance stuff to my life and see if it makes a difference. No, no, it's Thursday morning, you got a test. So I said, well, no, it's Thursday morning, you got to attest. So I said well, no, well, give me three days at least. No, you have to attest. So I went to Ethics City and said, no, you do this or you know, are you going to be declared? I think they said declared or in big trouble. So I went back.
Speaker 1:Because they wanted their statistic by 2 pm on Thursday, of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what it amounted to was clay demos. You know just, you have to demo it out. Oh, and if I do this and I do that, then I'll make more money, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, oh my gosh. These are great examples of why Mark and I always say that the end phenomena of Scientology is getting out of Scientology.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah, really I know they, yeah I know, had plenty of opportunities. But but we I mean when? When we, towards the end we were pretty much out but still had a little bit kind of in our heads until 2007 or 2009. I think it was 2009 when the Truth Rundown came out.
Speaker 1:Yes, the.
Speaker 2:Tampa Bay Times series. Yeah, it was like St Pete Times back then. Yes, yeah, at the time it was. Yeah, it was like St Pete Times back then. Yes, yeah, we weren't doing any services, we were just kind of living our lives. Our biggest mistake really was putting the kids in Scientology-based schools that primed them for getting in the Sea Org. But we weren't doing any services, had no plans to do any services, and I remember walking into a 7-Eleven store in Clearwater and seeing the newspaper and the stand right inside the door Scientology written right across as a headline.
Speaker 2:But Scientology is a snitch culture and I was so fearful that if someone in the store was, if there was another Scientologist in the store, saw me looking at that paper too long, they might write me up. That was my fear, that was what was in my head, and how paranoid you can get in Scientology. So let alone buy it and read it. I didn't dare, so I bought my coffee, which is what I had gone in for. I went home and I started looking on the internet and I watched all the videos, read all the stuff, and when I watched that Jason Begay video that Mark Bunker had done, that was it for me. It was a switch and I go, oh okay, I'm done, that was it. It was all a big con and I realized at that point in time because I had gotten in for clear and all those things, and when I listened to Jason Begay on that video and when he talked about you know, show me a clear.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And I realized Famous line now.
Speaker 2:Famous line, but that's what the switch was for me, because I looked at it and I go in 40 years in Scientology. Have I ever met a clear that had any of those attributes or even a portion of those attributes? Has anybody had any improved eyesight, any improved memory, any improved nothing. And I realized I had never seen a single iota of those gains, of those abilities or whatever you want to call them. Right, in all the 40 years I've been in scientology, let alone ot levels, I'd never seen any of the clear stuff yeah so um.
Speaker 2:So anyway, I showed it to willie. We both got out, but we stayed kind of what they call under the radar. We we didn't want to lose the kids because they were both in the sea org at the time. Right? Do you remember when that Big Tent IAS event was in Clearwater? Was that 2012, 11, 12, somewhere in there?
Speaker 1:Somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly I know what you're referring to.
Speaker 2:So when they were building that Big Tent, our son Mike, they shipped out from LA because he was at Celebrity Center but he worked on events. So I would go out there and see him every day, bring him a coffee and we'd talk. So towards the end of it I told him where we were at and he actually asked me an interesting question. He said you know, because I told him. I said you know, I, you know we're out, we don't, we just aren't in agreement with it anymore. He said to me. He said is it the people or the tech? I said you know, if the tech work, you wouldn't have bad people, you know. So, anyway, and I told, I told him that you know. Just, we just found it all to be a big lie.
Speaker 2:Anyway, so, and you know, willie came out the last day. He was there and gave him a hug and told him look, we'll stay in touch with you forever. We're never going to disconnect from you. And he stayed in touch with us for almost a year. Wow, that's huge. It was amazing. He didn't tell anybody.
Speaker 2:And we were exchanging videos and communications and phone calls and stuff all during that, I think, maybe eight or nine months. And then, or whatever they asked him about, and he spilled everything that I had told him. And that was it, and that was it At that point. We never heard from him again.
Speaker 1:So well, though you, you, you were honest with him, and so he knows. He knows where to turn when he's ready to get out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope that's that happens someday. I hope that's that happens someday. I mean, his in-laws are ex-guardian's office and his mother-in-law was one of the ones who actually went to jail.
Speaker 1:Wow. And when we met them.
Speaker 2:I had no idea at the time we went, we were having lunch with them and them and you know, and he was involved in that too he, I think he was an unindicted co-conspirator. So, um, they were both fully involved in the whole snow white infiltration of the government deal. Yeah, um, and I think she was the one writing all the programs wow and um, and he was involved somehow too.
Speaker 2:I can't remember how, but I, I I almost wish I would have known at the time. I would have asked him about it, because I can't withhold myself on stuff like that. So three years in jail, do you still? But but from what I understood, though, from what their daughter said, who was married to our son, she said one day that you know she used to like and I this didn't sink in for me at the time that she used to do this sort of private investigator type stuff, meaning guardians office stuff, and that she still does stuff like that Now. It probably works for OSA now.
Speaker 1:So, um what's her name?
Speaker 2:Cindy Raymond.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:And her husband Bruce Raymond.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't know them, I was just curious. And do you think your son knows about that?
Speaker 2:I doubt it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's crazy?
Speaker 2:Almost certainly not. If I look at how, when we lived in next door, neighbors were all guardians, office people, all of them like one, two, three, four, five, six, at least six, almost, all of which, I think, got busted. I think there were 11 of them that got arrested. Anyway, we had no clue. I had no clue about it. 11 of them that got arrested.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we had no clue, had no clue about it. So, um, and at least from my perspective, growing up in Scientology, I never knew about the raids, I never knew about prison time. We never barely even knew that, uh, anything. Well, actually I didn't know anything about Mary Sue Hubbard, um, until later years, when I was still in. I just knew that she lived at a house in Los Feliz, but I didn't, I didn't even know that she had served jail time.
Speaker 2:She, you know, she took one for the, for the team kind of thing, even even though they only stole copy paper. She, you know she took one for the team, so Ron wouldn't have to. You know, like it was all positioned in you know yeah, the responsibilities of leaders and protecting people in power and all that nonsense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Wow, that's crazy, yeah, and so and so obvious. So what year did you then start speaking out?
Speaker 2:Um, so, um, when we okay, so yeah, what year would that be? So, a few years later, cause we stayed under the radar for a few years, and then, um, we were living in Florida but we had moved kind of away from, we wanted to kind of get out of the like. All around flag and Clearwater there's a big Scientology community. You can't go into some coffee shops, it's just this, whatever. So we moved south of the bridge, like over the, the like down to Sarasota area, and we were living down there.
Speaker 2:And then, I guess, because we were kind of um during that time, my sister, she was one of these sort of Facebook police where she would say you're connected to so-and-so and they're not in Scientology anymore, you need to unfriend them. And I at first I would go fine. You know, a lot of times it was people I just didn't even really know. Anyway, get people on your friends list, so. But then one day she wanted us to disconnect from this family that we'd known for like 25 years and I said, no, I'm not going to do that. You can't tell me who to be friends with or not, whatever. So, anyway, so a little while after that I got a call from my sister saying I'm in Clearwater, I'm just down here getting a little da-da-da and I'd love to get together.
Speaker 2:And Willie and I our radar went up on this one and going something's not right here. I don't know what it is, I couldn't put my finger on it and I said so. I kept making excuses. I said, well, I'm busy for the next few days, but call me back in two or three days and I'll see if I can get away from work or whatever. Anyway, I can't remember what excuse I gave. So she kept on calling and calling and said well, I can come to you. I did not want her to know where we lived, right.
Speaker 1:Understandably.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I know, I yeah because they knew where our mailbox was, and if you watch my video coming out on Saturday, you'll see what happened from that episode.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh Anyway that turned into a big thing Anyway. So my sister, finally, I said to her I said, look, I don't want to, in case it's not funky. I said I don't want to be the family member who doesn't go and see family when they're visiting in town. Let's go meet her at a coffee shop and if it goes bad, we'll just go leave. So we agreed to that. We said, ok, we'll meet you at the Starbucks downtown Clearwater. And so we drove into town, parked on the street and walked into the Starbucks on the street and walked into the Starbucks.
Speaker 2:Now there's a family that we knew in Clearwater. We'd known them really well throughout the years and they were really close, like really close, this family, and they all worked. This was a Friday morning and they were all in the coffee shop, like even even the dad, who just normally anyway. So there were the, the parents, a couple of the kids anyway, so, and like grown kids, and so I saw them there. I walked up, said, oh, oh, this is great, good to see you. We were hugging them and hugging them. Saw them there, I walked up and said, oh, this is great, good to see you. We were hugging them and hugging them, and I looked over at my sister. Now my sister's last name is different from ours.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I looked over at my sister and she was standing there like a deer in the headlights, like what? Oh no, and I realized at that point she had called for backup. Oh gosh, thinking that if this meeting goes bad I need to have like, like I've never been a violent, like why my sister would be afraid of me. I have no idea, but my sister lives in fear anyway, she's kind of that kind of person. But anyway, so she was, and I I looked over at her and I said, oh, this is my sister gwen, and this is and and I introduced everybody and uh, anyway, and I so so it was an ambush gone wrong, basically an ambush gone wrong and I felt so bad for this family.
Speaker 2:In fact, when we actually left, they had, they didn't even stay in the right in the coffee shop, they'd gone outside. When we left, we saw them all standing in the in the coffee shop. They'd gone outside. When we left, we saw them all standing huddled outside the coffee shop and like they were all having anxiety attacks because they didn't know what the hell was going on, cause we'd known them so well. And here my sister was going oh, he's disaffected, he's probably to click getting declared and dah, dah, dah. And these people have known us for so many years and we've been so close. They would us for so many years and we've been so close. They would invite us to thanksgiving to christmas and and I'd say you're, you're inviting us with all your face, as you guys are family. That's how close we were. Um, so um, it was a big shock to them that willie and I walked in into the coffee shop and my sister had been positioning us as evil, evil people and um, anyway, and yet she didn't even mention your name.
Speaker 2:evidently, no, I guess not. No, I'm meeting my brother, I know.
Speaker 1:Because otherwise they would have. They wouldn't have been hugging you, and all that by their reaction, didn't? They had no idea that it was you?
Speaker 2:no idea. All she must have communicated was it's my brother. And then they must have thought, oh, somebody van cleef, we don't know, you know, or somebody, right rid of jones. So we sat down with my sister and she, we talked like, oh, how's your sunday? Within like two minutes, she, she was in. So we need to talk about this, you need to disconnect from this family. And I said, look, we're not. And then she'd say, well, you're not really with the program, you're not like with Scientology, you're not, da-da-da-da. I kept going on. Finally I said, look, we're. Now. This is going to be a tough part for me.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm sorry, phil.
Speaker 2:That's okay. Uh, I don't know what it is. There's only a few things in my life that make me kind of cheer up a little. That's my kids and some of this stuff. But, um, anyway I said, look, let's go outside and not talk about this in the restaurant or in the coffee shop. So we started walking down the street and anyway I said, look, let's go outside and not talk about this in the restaurant or in the coffee shop.
Speaker 2:So we started walking down the street and uh, and my sister was ahead of us and I, you know, we were halfway down the street and I turned to Will. I said this is not going to go. Well, I said let's just go home. So I said to my sister, I said we're just going to go, and? And she said no, and I said yeah, we're, we have, I got to get home, we're going to, we're going to go. So she walked right back up to us, got right in my face and she was like you have to get into flag right now. Get on a program, go to the CDMA and get on a program or you're going to lose your kids.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so sorry.
Speaker 1:No, don't be sorry Are you kidding me. This is this. This is one of the many reasons that I've spent the last 18 years exposing Scientology and I'm the same way, by the way. There's just a handful of things that I just cannot it just never gets easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So anyway, we did leave. We went back to the, got in the car and left and she must've gone straight to flag, reported us and I had told her that. When she said that, I said look, if if you go to flag and do this, then if we lose the kids, that's on you because you don't need to do that. But she must have done that because overnight every Scientologist we knew was off Facebook. They must have let everybody know. Every friend, everything was disconnected, even business-wise. Every friend, everything was disconnected, even business-wise. A guy I had worked for for years, I mean he, basically, to my face when I went to see him, said no, if you're not good standing with Scientology, you can't work for me. Wow, so that was kind of it.
Speaker 1:Wow, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, Bill.
Speaker 1:It's all right, I should be used to it. It's no, you should not. And it's not all right, it's not and never will be I.
Speaker 2:I did have one guy that I knew, an ot8 guy in florida, who did call me up to find out what happened and and I guess he felt he's OT8 and he's all powerful, that he's going to handle me somehow, so, anyway, so he got on the phone with me and he started talking to me and I told him. I said, no, look, I realized there's never been a clear and never done OT. And when he realized that that's where the conversation was going, he said well, look, I'm done here, I'm going to hang up. I'm going to hang up now. Pause, pause. No, I'm going to hang. I can't hang up my phone, phil, you're going to have to hang up. Oh, my gosh, I was, I mean, as bad as it was. It cracked me up because here's a guy, ot8, top of the bridge in scientology, able, the the most able on the planet, supposedly according to scientology and he couldn't hang up his phone wow he probably truly wanted to hear what you were still saying and hear you out no, not, no, no, no, I know him.
Speaker 2:He actually got kicked out, walked out by security out of the sand castle one day, just because he goes. He's just a strange guy. I was sitting having a coffee one day in the Starbucks when we were still kind of in and one guy walked into the Starbucks wearing one of those Scientology Kills t-shirts. And one guy walked into the Starbucks wearing one of those Scientology Kills t-shirts and this guy was halfway out of his seat going to punch the guy out when I had to make him not go. Do that.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:This guy was a wackadoodle kind of person Wow.
Speaker 2:And so when was this final conversation with your sister roughly was this, this final conversation with your sister, roughly, um, probably 2012, 13, somewhere in there. I think I'd have to look it up. I know that whole that whole period of time is a little bit hazy as far as dates go for me, for some reason. Um, at the time then, what we did is we moved out to vegas. Um, because there was really nothing left for us in Florida, like well, there was. I mean, we had our grandkids and that there. But we were like living a little farther away and we didn't want to get any more hassle from Scientology. So we said, at least for a while, maybe we could somehow get near enough to the kids, that we could maybe get to LA and see the kids, because they were both. We had both of our kids in Sea Org, one of them at Celebrity Center, and our daughter worked for Author Services, which is the fiction books, scientology, hubbard fiction books.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and of course and sorry not to interrupt you, but I just kind of wanted to also mention at this part, as you're now talking about your kids. I knew and worked with Emily at the headquarters when she was David Miscavige's steward and my cousin Amber was his runner and Valerie, of course, was another steward and Valerie and Emily I always knew as best friends for the longest time ever, but I never knew you as Emily's parents.
Speaker 1:Because again in the Sea Organization it's siloed Like nobody has family. You don't consider that anybody has family. You don't ever talk about family. You don't even know when a Sea Org member has a child. You know anyway.
Speaker 2:All information in Scientology is compartmentalized, correct. You'll never know what your next door neighbor is doing. If they don't want you to know, you won't know. Yeah, so, yeah, anyway.
Speaker 2:So, from we started going from Vegas, we started going into LA to protest and we were protesting for a little while and then got a phone call about a TV show that was being done Not Leah's show, but this was prior. Just prior to Leah's show, there was a TV show that A&E was going to be doing. Just prior to Leah's show, there was a TV show that A&E was going to be doing. So they had a whole production company and they wanted to see if we were possibly able to do it. And so we interviewed, we did, went through the whole thing and then they they took us on to do the show.
Speaker 2:So all the protesting, from that point on we were always doing, with all these professional cameramen, with us wired for sound and the whole bit, and we did all our protesting stuff. We did missing posters around celebrity center for our son. We did the billboards did. We did one billboard in la for I think three, and then we did one in Clearwater for one month, and so we drove to Clearwater. We drove because Scientology tracks airline, like if you book an air flight and a friend of mine had just got one who was protesting with us, had just gotten one of these restraining orders and even though he beat it, in the end it was it kept him away from Scientology for, I think, 30 days and I didn't want to have that. If I flew in and amazingly the executive producer, when he flew into Clearwater, he into Tampa airport, he was ambushed by a group of Scientologists to they were hassling him, and that's when he finally realized that all this stuff we were saying was oh, they're not crazy, they're actually telling the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had that experience so many times, I can't even count. I know exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know, we were so paranoid when this TV show started up. I didn't know them from Adam. I didn't know who they were. I thought at first, because we were protesting, that maybe it's an OSA thing to discredit us or something, and we were supposed to do some filming at a hotel. So we were meeting them at this hotel and I was. I almost didn't go. I was like, yeah, you know there's. I was just so paranoid. Scientology could breathe, especially when you're first out. For some reason there's this huge paranoia thing going on and I had it bad in the early days. So when we went into this hotel room I had the film crew. I said you guys wait out here for a minute. I went and checked the entire room, every drawer, to make sure no drugs were planted, no cameras Anyway, and then which is all warranted completely, by the way.
Speaker 1:I know it's. It's this weird. I consider it like it's like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. You know it was all warm and nice and everything. I mean you know surface level, of course, when you're in and and of course nobody talks to each other about what's going on. Nobody ever compares notes. But the second you're on the receiving end, oh boy, it's a whole different story.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, the thing that handled it for me was when because Jamie DeWolf, l Ron Hubbard's great-grandson, was involved in the show. He was kind of the main person for the show. When he walked in the room I thought okay, because I'd seen his stuff and that he was definitely anti-Scientology. So when he walked in the room I said okay, well, I'm fine on this then, and so we ended up doing the show at that point. But, yeah, they tagged along for all our stuff. And then we went to Clearwater, did that billboard and when we did that billboard, scientology had all their PI. Across the road you could see they had this big box trailer and Scientology had all their P PI and they searched around the whole area where the billboard was and they found a gazillion not a gazillion, I don't know how many cameras they found that Scientology had planted all around to get close up. Excuse me for one second.
Speaker 1:I got to move off here.
Speaker 2:Hope that mute worked. Yes, it did work, good job, okay. Anyway, they left all the cameras there, partly because they didn't want to just take Scientology's cameras. And the other thing is we didn't care. You know they can have pictures of us and whatever they, you know it wouldn't matter. So then we'd gone through all this stuff and it was hugely stressful. So instead of going back to vegas, we thought let's take a side trip to colorado, and that's where we first met you guys that's right.
Speaker 2:I remember that yeah, we drove to colorado and stayed there because we needed to unwind and the DeWalls put us up for a night, which was really nice. They had a little place in the country, there were deer walking across the lawn and we had had such a stressful time doing this whole drive to Clearwater. We did some protesting around Flag PIs following us. It was just stressful like crazy. So it was really nice. Then we got to meet you guys and I think we went out for lunch.
Speaker 1:It was just really good with my, with my youngest son I think he was like one one or two at the time, little guy, yeah, yeah, well we met your other kids too, I think.
Speaker 2:Um they were yeah, just just sweet kids. You have really nice kids. It was really nice to meet you guys and you know we made a point when we got out there to do that to meet you and we've been friends ever since.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, completely. And I will say, reflecting back on that I of course knew about your billboard efforts, which I thought I was a brilliant idea, and of course I so greatly appreciate your collaboration on the short-lived Aftermath Foundation billboard. But that's going to continue. Eventually we're working things out, but I had no idea about the TV show, of course, at that time, because I'm sure know at least, I'm sure, you were under NDA and all that kind of stuff while it's in production.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they weren't making it public. And then I never knew quite why they shelved it, because it was all done Everything was shot, edited and had gone through the lawyers for approval.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, mark's dad was in that too, bernie.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right. That's right, remember that. Yeah, I think what might have happened was at the time Leah was doing a show and now she has the celebrity name. So I think it was a little more powerful anyway from that. And I can definitely understand it from A&E's viewpoint that if they've got two shows on a similar subject that you know they might, and her show got an Emmy or two Emmys anyway at least, so you know it was a powerful enough show and it did make an impact, and for me that's the bottom line. It doesn't matter whose voice it is, as long as it's in the right direction, and that was definitely in the right direction for sure.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a path. And, by the way, thank you for just staying the course, and I know that there are probably many days that it's hard, but I will say from my perspective and from having worked with Emily, she's very lucky that you've not given up hope on her. And there are so many times I can't even count when I was in the C organization that I would pray, that I wished and hoped. I was like why don't I have somebody I can go to? So you know, I know that's not necessarily meaningful in this moment, but I'm, you and Willie are amazing people and so thank you for your persistence.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, claire. I do appreciate that. I think at least with Emily she knows that she's got a place to go. I don't know on Mike, we've kind of seen sort of a little bit more of Emily over the years because she's been out there a little bit more. She goes to shows and this, and that I think she has a better life than most Sea Org people. She does people, she does um. But uh, son mike, I we hear nothing, I I just uh um, I I have no idea what's going on with him?
Speaker 1:so and and I'm curious. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, I'm curious and this is backtracking a little bit but did emily ever tell you why she went from Religious Technology Center, working directly with David Miscavige, to author services? It seems like something happened there, from my perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, she walked out the door and David Miscavige sent some people after her and then basically offered her whatever she wanted.
Speaker 1:So she escaped.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know how far she got Okay.
Speaker 1:Wow, well, let me tell you something Security has security. In the C organization they kind of have what we would refer to as a golden rule book and I mean it's not. It's. It's a not an official thing, but jackson could corroborate this in a heartbeat. Always the rule was if somebody's escaped once, they will escape again, you know, no matter how much time would elapse. That was statistically proven.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know we keep fighting and the thing is that I hope sometimes the messages that we put out there do get through. I don't know if they do or not, but hopefully at least they would get through to Emily. I don't know about whether anything gets through to Mike or not, but you know, if we keep fighting, my view to a large degree is it's really important to get people out of Scientology. But if you prevent one person from going in, you might prevent 20 people from going in. When I got in in 1969, and I look at what followed from that my brother, my sister, our kids, my brother's three kids, my sister's son, there's a couple of grandkids on my brother's side I mean there's at least 15 or 20 people Just from those two people that came out to our small town and did a lecture on drug, a drug lecture for Narconon.
Speaker 2:That's why it's so important to shut down these front groups, because they get one person in. There might be a dozen family members that follow, or half a dozen, and then they get a friend in and that friend gets somebody in, and then they get a friend in and that friend gets somebody in. So I think it's just as important to keep people from going in, and that's why I support those guys that are out there protesting. I know sometimes it's not necessarily the way I would do it, but it doesn't matter. They've basically shut down the test center, so they're not getting people in, and if they don't get people in, there are people still leaving, and that means that through attrition, scientology will eventually not have people to man up these orgs.
Speaker 1:Yep, 100%, absolutely no, I know, and I agree with that. It's stop people going in, get people out.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's the same goal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard to get people out because you can't even have a conversation with them. They'll either run away, walk away or go in and lock a door. You know, going into an org or whatever, pull down the shades there. I mean I've watched some of these guys on the street protesting nice to the Scientologists going in. You know, I hope you have a nice day and you got anything nice to say about. You know, they won't. They won't engage at all. I've tried to engage with Scientologists they they won't. Most times they'll just shut down and walk away. So it is difficult even just to get that conversation going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and of course, there's layer upon layer of contradiction, but in the last conversation I had with my stepfather Hewitt that you know, um was in June 2011, at my grandmother's funeral in the UK, and I and and he started yelling at me in front of my entire family and he was like you're attacking my religion. And I looked at him and I said don't you believe that communication is the universal solvent? And of course, that's a Hubbard quote that I was shoving in his face. Anyway, needless to say, he didn't appreciate that and he stormed off in a huff.
Speaker 2:But you know, yeah, as soon as they think that they're not going to win an argument by overpowering you, then they'll just walk away from it. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. They don't really have good communication skills.
Speaker 1:No, I know they don't, they absolutely don't. Well, we've we've covered a lot of ground. I was hoping to to talk to you about things that have helped you in the process of recovery, but maybe we can do another talk about that another day.
Speaker 2:I'd be happy to sit down and talk to you about that.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:And I'm actually starting. I'm about ready to start my recovery soon.
Speaker 1:Oh, Phil, you're funny.
Speaker 2:Sorry, yeah, it's an ongoing. It's an ongoing thing.
Speaker 1:For you and me both. For you and me both. Believe me, oh my gosh, awesome. Well, thank you so very much for joining me today. Please give Willie a big, big hug for me. And and again, thank you for your persistence, thank you for your voice, thank you for everything that you do. I'm so grateful and we'll talk again soon. How about that?
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. Thanks, claire.
Speaker 3:Alrighty. Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Xenu Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.