Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Marc Headley worked at Scientology’s secret desert compound, which houses all Scientology management, for 15 years. The 500-acre property is located deep in the California desert. The local townspeople were told lectures and films were made there. But is that all that was happening? It is the location of a multi-million dollar home for L. Ron Hubbard, built two decades after his death. It is the home of Scientology’s current leader, David Miscavige. So what really happens at the Int Base? Are the stories on the internet true? How does Scientology conduct management of its day-to-day operations? Could stories of armed guards, weapons, staff beatings, and razor wire fences be true? If so, how could a facility like this exist in modern-day America? Hundreds of staff tried to escape over the years. Some succeeded but were never seen or heard of again, and most failed. Why were people kept here? What really went on at the headquarters of Scientology? This is the story of what happened behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.
Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Raising Children After Escaping Scientology's Grip - Scientology Q&A #35
Former Sea Org members share their experiences of becoming parents after leaving Scientology, exploring the challenges of starting families without educational backgrounds or parental models to follow. They discuss how disconnection from their own parents impacted their approach to parenting and how they've built successful lives despite the organization's efforts to hinder them.
• Marc and Claire Headley discuss raising three boys while processing their own experiences of parental separation in Scientology
• Janice Gillum-Grady shares her journey of being pregnant when leaving the Sea Org and building a family outside the organization
• The speakers describe the financial challenges of starting families with limited education and resources
• Claire recounts calling Dr. Laura Schlesinger for parenting advice when worried about how disconnection would affect her children
• All three discuss how they've achieved professional success through determination despite lacking formal education
• They reflect on how the absence of concepts like love, compassion and empathy in Scientology impacted their approach to parenting
• The parents share strategies for explaining their Scientology past to their children in age-appropriate ways
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PODCAST INFO:
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YOUTUBE PLAYLISTS:
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Hi everybody, welcome to our channel. Hi, this is Mark Fisher, with our Scientology Stories Peeling the Onion, and we're doing a simulcast with Blown for Good's channel, which is Mark Headley and Claire Headley, and, of course, my co-cast with Blown for Good's channel, which is Mark Hedley and Claire Hedley, and, of course, my co-host, janice Gillum-Grady, is here as well. Hi everybody, welcome to the channel. Hi, so we're simultaneously streaming on both our channel and Mark and Claire's channel, so you can watch us on either one. But if you haven't subscribed to our channels, please do so. I'm sure. Subscribe to Mark and Claire, subscribe to us, we'd really appreciate it. And how's everybody?
Speaker 2:doing today Good, it's Thursday, so things are looking up.
Speaker 1:And it's after two.
Speaker 2:It's Thursday after two, so that's a good thing, yay, yeah, so hopefully we all had our stats up for the week and we're going to have a good weekend.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. What's going to happen?
Speaker 3:I tuned my stats in just before I came in here.
Speaker 4:Oh.
Speaker 3:Nice, can you guys hear me?
Speaker 4:Yes we can hear you.
Speaker 1:You're much crackling in my ear a little bit, Mark, but now it's good.
Speaker 1:Anyway, what we're going to do is we're doing a show here talking about parenting after Scientology, but then it's going to lead directly into Mark's show with Mitch Brisker, and so you don't have to leave the channel, it's just automatically going to transfer you over so you can watch both shows together, and that's how we set it up to make it nice and smooth for the viewers out there. So, anyway, we wanted to welcome everybody here and we're going to go ahead and get started. I was going to ask Claire and Janice and Mark, I've never had kids, unfortunately. I never had kids after the Sea Org. But go ahead, claire and Janice, how many kids do you have and what are their ages?
Speaker 2:Sure, so, speaking for Mark and I, we have three boys. Uh, so in my case I have four boys. Um, you know, Mark.
Speaker 4:I think it's Claire's mic that's crackling, Unless I crackle too when I talk no, you don't, it's Claire's mic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your mic is crackling, babe.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's not fun.
Speaker 4:Just switch over, Just switch it off and switch it back over, but I'll talk while Claire is fixing that. Yeah, we have a 10-year-old, a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old and I think the crazy thing for me is seeing them at certain milestone ages, like when Claire was four, when her mom joined the Sea Org, so when, when our firstborn son was four, you think like, oh, how would it be if we just leave this guy with some people and maybe see him an hour a day or maybe even once a week? And I can't even fathom, I can't even fathom having a dog that I see once a week, much less a child. So it's a, it's the wildest, it's, it is very um it. It just it's one of those things that I can't wrap my head around how my mom thought that that was a good idea or that was even something that you could do.
Speaker 1:Claire's back. Can we hear you now, claire? Are you there? Claire? No, she went out again. Janice, how many kids do you have? Go ahead.
Speaker 3:I have two. I have a 32-year-old boy and a 29-year-old girl and then I have a three-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter, right. But I agree with Marcus. Like as my kids hit certain ages, I was like, what were my parents thinking? And while my mother, you know, left three children on the Royal Scotsman, on a ship in the middle of the Mediterranean while she was in America and didn't see us, she saw us maybe three or four times in five years and my dad didn't see us at all, from the age of 12 to 17. And they were proud of us. But it's's like my mother said, she petitioned to have us return to her but that was, that was denied, but she didn't she, she did not pursue it and say, hey, wait a minute, and she thought we were in good hands. So basically.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you all, you all basically can't imagine, after having kids, you know, your parents leaving you in the c organization. Right, it just doesn't make any sense at all, did it?
Speaker 4:yeah no, it's literally it's literally unthinkable that that what they did, like to me, I just, I just can't even it, wouldn't even, it wouldn't even be, it wouldn't. I wouldn't want to say that there would be. In no scenario Would I be okay with that situation. Like to just, I would just be like no, that's not. Like, oh, they're going to go, and well, who are they going to be with? Where are they going to be? When are they going to? You know, it would be, it would be so much that it would just be like oh no, this is ridiculous, this is, this is, it's unthinkable yeah okay.
Speaker 1:So, janice, I know you, you were pregnant with your son john, when you left the sea organ. That's one of the reasons why you left. Uh, mark and claire, and, and and when did you all decide that you were going to have, start a family and have children? And and what was it like when you first, you know know, found out you were pregnant and you were going to have babies. Same for you, janice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would answer to that. Obviously, when we escaped, it was like start your life over again. Mark jokes that we never planned to have children yet, but of course you know we always wanted kids, and so Mark escaped in the beginning of January 2005. I followed three weeks after that and by I think it was May, may or June I was pregnant and that was just amazing. You know, it was like wow, new beginnings, right, mark?
Speaker 4:you know, it was like wow, new beginnings, right, Mark? Yeah, I mean, we, we, we had our first kid like a year after we had escaped. So it was pretty much yeah, it was pretty much about a year and a few days that's how close it was to when we had our first son. But yeah, we had our first son. But uh, yeah, it really really made me change my whole concept of scientology and how they treat a family, because they're they're always uh, it's all about, um, the group and your family and your second dynamic and your third dynamic.
Speaker 4:In the end of the day, they don't care about any of that, like it's not even, it doesn't even factor in to any decision-making skills. It's just like, oh no, the kids need to just be gotten away as a distraction. We just got to move them away so we can get all this work done. And when you have kids, it's almost like it's all about the kids and everything else comes second, comes after that, even each other. Like, the kids come first and then we deal with us. And in Scientology, the kids are. They might not even make the list of things we're worried about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know Totally.
Speaker 4:I mean that's yes, worried about, yeah, I know I mean that's yes, on the on, whenever in the c org kids are sort of like it's just a thing we have to deal with, you know well, parent well.
Speaker 3:people who did not have kids, you could tell they had an animosity towards those did have kids because they got that extra hour every day to go see their kids, or if you're.
Speaker 4:I was going to say that is exactly what I witnessed too. You'd see, the other Sea Org members or the other staff would be like you'd say oh, where's Bob?
Speaker 4:Oh, they're off with their kid, you know they're at family time for an hour and they're being with their kid, you know they're at family time for an hour and they're being, you know, criticized and berated for basically taking an hour off in the middle of the day yeah, or on family day, they all got to take their kids for the whole day and if you didn't have kids, you didn't get the day off, you know mark somebody's saying in the chat your your volume's a little low on your microphone.
Speaker 1:Is there a way you can turn it up?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:There you go. Oh, that's much better. Sorry about that. Well, let me ask you both a question Claire and Janice and Mark. So when you get out obviously Janice was pregnant when she got out, and then Mark and Claire, you were just starting your life outside of Scientology how scary was it financially to go? I've got a kid coming right now and I still have to set up my career. I mean, what was that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, big adventure. You just take it a day at a time, right, I know I remember that. So we were in Kansas City and Mark had moved back to LA at the time that I and you know. So we were in Kansas City and Mark had moved back to LA at the time that I and you know, so we were kind of in transition. He'd gotten this job offer and it was too good to pass up.
Speaker 2:You know, when you've been, when you're starting your life over from scratch, it's, it's a huge undertaking. Like everything is just, how do we manage this, how do we do this? And then on top of that yes, you're right, factor in pregnancy insurance. You don't know how any of that works, hadn't been to a doctor and like I don't know other than, like you know, mandatory things. And it's funny because actually by the time I moved to LA to re, you know, we settled and we had an apartment and kind of had things situated. I was um five months pregnant already by the first time I went to see the doctor and the doctor was like, so were you planning to come at all? Or like what's the deal? I'm like yeah, yeah, no, no, we're, we're just I don't know how this works. I don't have anyone to talk to that's ever had kids, like you know. Oh my gosh. And they're. And she's like, well, it's already time for your, your ultrasound and we're gonna find out if it's a boy or a girl, where we were like, wow okay and janice.
Speaker 1:You got you both mentioned, claire and janice. They don't teach you this biology when you were growing up in Scientology as a kid, right?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:No anatomy classes or anything.
Speaker 3:Reading, writing and arithmetic, no sex education, no anatomy class, none of that but you did learn the 2D rules.
Speaker 1:The 2D rules you learned right.
Speaker 2:The 2D rules and the way to happiness Don't be promiscuous. That's about it. That sums it up right there, that's your education.
Speaker 3:Well, when we got married, Paul actually gave me a book. It's also a sex education type book, so I would have some understanding.
Speaker 4:Paul bought you a sex education book. Paul bought you a sex education book. I think the only book we had was what to expect when, when expecting?
Speaker 2:I think that was the book when you're expecting. That was your mic is crackling full-time.
Speaker 4:Claire full-time.
Speaker 2:I don't know what to do then.
Speaker 4:You're not on your sure, mike. You're on your laptop, mike, or something else, or computer, mike.
Speaker 1:Mark. So, mic Mark, what about you as far as financially? And all that when you're first starting out, when Claire's pregnant? What was that like for you as the father?
Speaker 4:Well, I was lucky to pretty much start working as soon as I left, like I, within within a day or two I was making $50 an hour after leaving, after making $46 a week for 120 hour week. Um, I went straight in to uh fixing computers and and just had a full-time job and um, and then basically, when we uh, we were in Kansas City for a few months, we had like a two-bedroom apartment which we got just in case my dad needed to move. He was going through. Very shortly after we got out, him and his wife ended up getting a divorce and selling their house and doing that, and so we got an apartment with an extra bedroom so that, if he needed to, he could stay with us. And then we ended up moving to Los Angeles within a few months and that is, we were probably there for about six months before our first kid was born.
Speaker 4:But, um, I had a full-time job in Los Angeles at a post-production company for a while and then I also worked for uh like a telecom, a telecom apt, uh, uh, well, it was really a company that was making some apps for phones when they were still flip phones. There was no, I don't even think there was an iPhone, yet when, when they were making these, these uh things that would read your text messages or emails for you and um, so we, we, I, I, luckily, um was able to get work right away, and then Claire was also, um, had a full-time job, so, um, we were actually doing pretty good. We didn't think we did much better than we thought we would, having no high school education, not having a resume of pretty much anything, and so we kind of lucked out in that department and it wasn't that big of a deal. Definitely sort of like, uh, we got to make a ton of money because we're going to have a kid, and so we that's kind of how we planned it. And then it just, you know, it was definitely uh, I don't want to say it was yeah, I guess it was stressful, just that. Oh, what are we going to do? What are, how are we going to? You know, how are we going to do this? And we don't have a good template to follow from our mothers. So it was sort of like, yeah, this is not.
Speaker 4:I mean, we had a low bar set by by my mom and Claire's mom, so it was sort of anything that Claire did would be better than either of them, and the fact that there was a dad involved was a bonus. So it was sort of like okay, great, I mean my dad was around, but him and my mom split up and he didn't want to make any trouble because he knew because he wasn't a Scientologist, then he'd get cut right off. Played it safe when you know things. My mom wanted us to do Scientology stuff or you know, do that follow along with that whole you know culture. My dad was just like I don't want to make trouble because otherwise I'll never talk again.
Speaker 1:And Janice. Janice, you and Paul had a totally different experience, didn't you?
Speaker 3:Financially and everything. When you got out out right, why don't you tell that story? Well, we left and we went to my brother, who had left eight years before, and, um, I was one and a half months pregnant, but I thought I was further along. So my sister-in-law was like well, we've got to get you in for a doctor's checkup, and I'm like a doctor anyway, how many months when you went for your first appointment oh no, it was well.
Speaker 3:Here's the story that it was just one and a half months, but I thought I was further along. Oh, because that I go to the doctor and he they lived up in upper ohio, which was a small little place, and a friend of theirs was the doctor down the road and he had a place in santa paula. So I went down to see him, he did a blood test and so forth, and he comes back with the blood test and he says, um, your child might be be retarded, and so we want to do further testing. And they couldn't get, so they wanted to put me in for an amniothin cesis yeah and it was, and it would take two weeks to get the result.
Speaker 3:Boy did that, screw with my head for two weeks just wondering what kind of child was I going to have? And I have no money and what. You know what am I going to have and I have no money and what am I going to do? So they did the amniotic incisus and that's when they found out that my dates were off and that I was going to have a boy and everything was fine. But that two weeks was pure hell and I was like I'm not coming back to doctors. That was my one and only real experience with a doctor. So anyway, that was my start of having a perfectly healthy son.
Speaker 1:How about financially, though? How about financially?
Speaker 3:Financially we had very little money. You know, we had some bonus money we'd saved up, but Paul had been on the RPF for a while and so he had used that when he tried to escape. At one point He'd used up some of that on a hotel. So I contacted Marshall Goldblatt, who is a wealthy Scientologist, and I told Marshall I called some other Scientology friends and they were like sorry, can't help you, you're blowing. And so I called Marshall and I said I don't want money, I'll do something in exchange. And it's still there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I thought it was Claire, but now it's happening even though she's not on, so I think it might be something with stream yard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't hear you either. I don't hear any buzzing at all, so yeah anyway.
Speaker 3:so I'll contact marshall and I had those asi prints that they were selling for like $3,000 or something ridiculous. Anyway, I called Marshall and he offered to buy them from me and I arranged for my dad to drop them off and he wired me several thousand dollars. So I was like, oh, what a relief. You know, because now I at least have three grand. And then I started babysitting. Can you imagine coming out of the sea and babysitting? I was so militant to these children. I was like, okay, let's do something fun. We're going to make cookies. But everything had to be perfect, condition you couldn't spill. You know, I must have just driven those kids nuts babysitting them, trying to make perfect cookies with no spilling.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, and Mark and Claire, our living situation was we got a two-bedroom apartment in Vegas. Paul and Janice were in one bedroom, terry and Fernando were in the other bedroom and I slept on the pullout couch while Janice was pregnant because we had no jobs. We were just getting started. We didn't even know what a mortgage was getting into the mortgage business and it was commission only. So it was like how are you going to make any money to make ends meet? That was what was so crazy. And Janice, I remember Paul, he pinched every penny right. He made sure that every penny went somewhere positive.
Speaker 3:So this guy couldn't waste money. I came to Vegas first and he stayed in Ojai helping my brother do some construction work, to finish a job there, so he could make some money and then join us in Vegas while we were setting up the mortgage company. Yeah, we didn't know what a mortgage was, and here we were opening up a mortgage company Wow.
Speaker 2:I think that's unanimously something. No Sea Org member knows what a mortgage is right.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a general question now. Okay, having been in Scientology and then getting out, okay, what are some of the things like did you use anything that you learned in Scientology in terms of raising your kids as parents? Do you know what I mean In terms of anything that you learned? Like, how did you even did they even know that you were in Scientology before? Do you know what I mean? Like, just a general question like that.
Speaker 3:Well for me. I found a midwife and I did the Bradley method and I went to different classes on that and then. But I told the midwife it had to be a silent birth but and I remember during the birth hearing her crunching on potato chips. Can you stop?
Speaker 1:John's gonna get. John's gonna get keyed in every time he hears potato chips the rest of his life.
Speaker 4:He's going to be watching a football game and someone's going to crunch a Lay's chip or something he's going to be like. Ah.
Speaker 3:I mean, the whole room was silent, except this crunch.
Speaker 1:She's telling me it's okay, just let it happen, you know, and she had John on the floor in the living room of our apartment. I was upstairs At that point. Kenny Lipton had moved to town, and so we waited upstairs in his apartment, upstairs, while Janice was having the baby on the floor with the midwife. Wow, couldn't afford a hospital.
Speaker 3:No, the midwife cost $500 from start to finish. I had no insurance and she was like, if there's any problems, I have a van outside and I have an oxygen tank and I know where the closest hospital is and I'm like there won't be any problems. Oh my God, Three hours later, pushing every vein in my face, it probably burst.
Speaker 1:How about you, claire? What was your? What was your birth like when you had your first son? Did you guys go to the hospital or what'd you do?
Speaker 2:We did. Yeah, it was funny. A month before we had our son, somebody that we knew was like oh, we should do a baby shower. And I was like what's a baby shower? What do you mean? What's that about? And she was like, oh, uh, we should do a baby shower. And I was like what's a baby shower? What do you mean, what's that about? And she was like you don't know what a baby shower is I'm like Nope, Anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, no, we we had our son at the hospital, Um, and it was a very long drawn out event, right, Honey, like 48 hours, Um, I think, from start to finish. It was because I was induced the first time. I was kind of in retrospect, I was, you know, again I had, I just had no experience, no reference. So the doctor just kind of said, Well, he's only gonna get bigger. So what do you want to do? I'm like I guess I'm gonna to have the baby.
Speaker 2:Is that the right answer here. Okay, so I was induced the first time, really tough, really long and and. And it was amazing to me how the different nurses kind of like. Really, there was this one particular nurse that completely freaked Mark and I out Like she came in. She's like particular nurse that completely freaked Mark and I out Like she came in. She's like your oxygen's dropping, the baby's oxygen is dropping. We need to get you on oxygen right now. He's got the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and we're like what, what's going on?
Speaker 2:Anyway, then the next nurse came in who was like you know, had been around forever, obviously, and she was like ripped the oxygen off of me. She was like that's a bunch of nonsense, everything's fine, you're fine, everything's going to be okay. But yeah, so everything was okay. It was, you know, just wow, like what an experience. And I think you know, unfortunately, you know we were. So we were delivering my son in Burbank, california, that's where we lived at the time and my parents lived in La Crescenta, and so after our son was born, or shortly after Mark, you should tell the story about when you called my mom shortly after.
Speaker 4:Mark, you should tell the story about when you called my mom. Yeah, I, um, I basically called claire's mom on the phone and I said hey, just want to make sure you know claire had the baby. This is how much she weighed. Everything's good, she's healthy, um and fine. The baby's healthy and fine. Click, she literally just hung up.
Speaker 4:Because she was disconnected from Claire, right, yeah, because we were both. In January of 2005, right when we escaped, we were declared suppressives and they were all told, but we weren't. So for months we were sort of playing along with them like okay, yeah, well, what do you need us to do? Were sort of playing along with them like, okay, yeah, well, what do you need us to do? We'll, we'll see if we can figure something out. You know, just so we wouldn't cause them any trouble and they wouldn't cause us any trouble.
Speaker 4:And, um, and Claire was talking with her mother and we were talking to people, we but we didn't know that they'd already been told that we were declared SPS and not to talk to us. And then when we finally ended up going back to Los Angeles in April of 2005, I ended up going back to get whatever stuff that we still had. They packed it up in a U-Haul and we met them like at a rendezvous point to pick up the truck with all the stuff. And when I went to that, they gave me the declares the suppressive person declares. It's actually an issue that says you know, mark Headley is declared a suppressive person. Or it says at the top suppressive person, declare.
Speaker 4:I think that's actually what it says at the top, and they were dated January and I was sort of like you guys have been messing with us and kind of putting on a show for four months and it was like, yeah, this is nonsense. And so then when I called her the next time, we probably hadn't talked to them in a year or more by the time we had our first child and it was like, yeah, they're not talking. Uh, they're not, they're not picking, they're not talking on the phone to us. That's it, it's done. And so the three boys, our three boys, have never met, um, claire's, any of Claire's family ever.
Speaker 1:My boy, I was going to ask how how it has disconnected disconnected affected your children that were now teenagers and older and same with you, janice, cause your father. Father was disconnected with from you for a while too. How has that affected them?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'll go first.
Speaker 4:My my answer to that is your mic is it's crackles so bad claire that we literally cannot hear you I don't hear anything.
Speaker 2:Is it crack crackling?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's deaf On my end it's. I can't hear you. I can only hear crackling.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 4:Every time you talk, it crackles Go ahead Dennis.
Speaker 3:Well, what happened with me was my dad. When we first moved to Vegas he came out and visited us and a private investigator reported that dad was in vegas seeing us. So dad got pulled in by office of special affairs for two years of sick checking so he didn't see the kids. And then and he before before we moved to vegas he did see my brother's kids a few times. So then what he did was a non-Scientologist she had been a Scientologist but she wasn't on anyone's lines.
Speaker 3:She worked it out for Dad to go to a hotel at Disneyland and we would go to Disneyland with the kids my brother and his kids and me and mine, the kids, my brother and his kids and me and mine and she would then take all four of his grandchildren over to another hotel to visit him and that way he didn't have to deal with us SPs but he got to meet and spend some time with his grandkids and I think Aaron was probably about four years old at that time, so John was seven, richard was eight, you know Yvonne was probably about 12.
Speaker 3:So that's how we did it, so that he could get to see them. And I always sent him photographs and I did a yearly calendar with pictures on it and would send that to him so he could kind of watch them grow. Would send that to him so he could kind of watch them grow. And doing that actually helped, because one day he suddenly called me on my birthday to wish me happy birthday and I'm like how did you remember my birthday? Well, I have your calendar here in front of me, you know. So that helped open up that communication line with him was by just always sending letters with photographs in the calendar.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, janice has been a big proponent of that. If your family's disconnected from you, still send them cards and letters and birthday photos and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:You'd never know when they're going to reach out. You know, right, yeah, that's a good point. I never even thought about that. That, um, you know, we, we see um, my sister's, um friends of my sister, cause my sister also um stopped talking uh with us as well and now she has been uh kicked out of the Sea Org and she lives in Clearwater, and so we see people that are her friends on Facebook.
Speaker 4:There's kind of like there's some people that are kind of under the radar but they're friends with Scientologists and they're friends with SPs and they sort of kind of live in this gray area. So some, every once in a while, people will send us stuff and like, oh, your sister had a kid, or your sister moved to Florida, or your you know whatever. So every once in a while we'll see stuff because we're blocked, so we can't. If we go on to social media, we that we just don't even see that they have a profile because they've blocked us. So it is what it is. Every once in a while we'll see you know something? Okay, claire, let's hear it. Let's hear.
Speaker 2:Testing, testing.
Speaker 4:Well, now you're muted, so that's not going to work at all.
Speaker 1:I can't hear her. Oh, you did, I heard her. Oh my goodness, claire, say something.
Speaker 2:Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three.
Speaker 1:There you go. I can hear her. She's just a little low if you turn the volume up. If not, just get close to the microphone either way. But yeah, no, you're in.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome.
Speaker 1:Perfect, Now let's get to you now about what I asked about how has disconnection, you know, affected your children, you know not being able to see their grandparents, and things like that.
Speaker 2:What you know not being able to see their grandparents, and things like that. What do they even think about that, you know? Yes, so I would say that, um, after our second son was born, I kind of had a existential crisis, as it were, in that, um, I I lost my dad to through disconnection when I was three years old and I completely blamed myself. So when I had kids of my own, my biggest concern was that they would think it was their fault, as I thought it was my fault when I was three years old, and so when my second son was like a few months old, it really started to hit me like what am I going to tell my kids when they realize I have no grandparents?
Speaker 2:and, oh my gosh, a lot of emotions were bubbling at the surface. So so, my, my decision was to call Dr Laura and say Dr Laura Schlesinger, you know, she'sa family therapist in California. She had a radio show, and so I, I this was, I think, 2009 by now.
Speaker 2:And so Scientology was still so litigious that I, you know, we weren't really. It was like, eh, don't touch that with a 10 foot pole. So for the from this perspective of calling a radio show, I figured out how to couch everything in such a way as to never mention the word Scientology. I figured out how to couch everything in such a way as to never mention the word Scientology, and so I called the first time I'd spoke with Kimberly, the screener, I explained the whole story and and she was like Okay, okay, you're, you're in line. And unfortunately, that time the show ended before I got on, and then another. It took me another four months to get up the guts to call back do it again.
Speaker 2:And good old Kimberly remembered me and bumped me to the front of the line. I was like oh my God. And of course, the moment I got on with Dr Laura, the floodgates opened and I was just bawling right now. I'm like, oh my gosh. But so I asked her. I'm like what do I tell my kids? I explained the whole circumstance. Like, my husband and I were both born into this organization and you know whatever.
Speaker 2:I explained it all in terms that never used the word Scientology, and Dr Laura was like I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:This is an organization that represents itself as being about love, and it's not. They shun you, it's leverage control, and the best thing you can do with your kids is always, only ever, tell them the truth, and that way you know that they will never go down that path and it was. It sounds ridiculously simple, but it was just such solid advice and it really helped me gain perspective that actually the emotions I was feeling was because of my relationship with my parents and my mom and my stepdad and my dad that I lost when I was three to Scientology, and so that was my emotions. Unfortunately, I also came to terms with the fact that my family, by their choices, have made themselves strangers to my children, so therefore it means nothing to my children. They don't know who they are and therefore you know I'm not going to insert that loss on them. It has to do with me, not my children, and what I can do as a mom is to surround my kids with unconditional love and teach them what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like if the parents, if the grandparents, had died before the kids were even born. They don't even know. Both of my mother's parents were dead when the year I I was born. I never knew them, so you have no emotional attachment to them, janice. How about you? How what you know? What about you?
Speaker 3:yeah, well. Yeah, well my mother passed away years before I even left the field, so my kids didn't have a grandmother on my side of the family, but Kimma Douglas took on that position as a grandmother for them and Mike Douglas took on as a grandfather.
Speaker 3:She was called Grand Kimma and you know it was just the kim in there, but her grandma yeah um yeah, but she took on that job and they just loved her like a grandmother and she'd they'd go visit her or would all go visit her. So they had that substitute. It was good yeah, that's nice.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say. You know, we had a. We had a discussion with Apostate Alex and Janice's daughter Erin, and one of the concepts that my dad pointed out to me after I left Scientology was the concept of love is not present in Scientology. You know, we talk about affinity and ARC. It's not the same as love, right, and it's completely missing, and I totally agree with that. You know what I mean. I'd like to get your feelings on that, that's not my dog.
Speaker 3:Oh, is that janice it's, I gotta mute myself, but I don't see where to mute myself I can mute you, janice, go ahead, I ahead, I got it there we go Okay, go ahead, claire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is very strange how love has been removed from the terminology of Scientology and its affinity and its place, and in fact, in the TED Talk that I drafted, that I did on the Blown for Good channel I, I talk about that. That unconditional love does not exist in scientology. The love from your parents is entirely dependent and completely on your cooperation and participation in scientology. In the moment you cease that, that you're out, you're on your own. See, you wouldn't want to be. Uh, you know um, and uh yeah. So there you go.
Speaker 4:Audio challenges today. Huh, you, you, you said it, not me. Um, yeah, no, I, I. I think that, um, I think that's a pretty accurate statement. They really don't value family. They don't value there's. No, it's really just, I think, what do they call it? They call it mis-emotion. If you have apathy, or if you have, you know great, if you love somebody. It's just like. That's just kind of like you know you don't need to. Emotions are sort of like added and inapplicable, Like we don't, we don't need any of that. That doesn't, that doesn't forward our cause at all.
Speaker 1:How about you, Janice, Can we? Is your dog done?
Speaker 4:No, she says, he's still gone.
Speaker 1:I was going to say the other okay, I was going to say, though, the other thing is compassion. Compassion is not in Scientology, compassion for other people and empathy. Good point, yes, yes, very much.
Speaker 2:So. Yeah, no, in fact, if you, if you had empathy or compassion, you were a bad person and not, uh, you know anyway. Oh, janice is good, now, here we go, there you go.
Speaker 1:Go ahead Janice, love, love, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is missing. You know you've got the ARC. Is that really the same? No, no, it's not. So yeah, you pretty much covered what I would have said.
Speaker 1:Well, and Janice Hubbard really didn't have any. He never showed any real love towards his family or anything, did he? I mean in terms of the way that you and Claire probably showed towards your children?
Speaker 3:No, he definitely did not, you know. I mean, he rarely saw his kids and it took the household unit saying let's invite the whole family to dinner every night, you know, when we were on the ship and then the kids started eating with him but it started affecting their jobs because if he was still working, mary Sue and the kids would be waiting. Well, mary Sue would keep working, but the kids would be sitting around waiting, you know. So he didn't kind of go out of his way for the kids at all.
Speaker 1:And I felt sorry, to be honest with you, with his kids. I felt sorry for them, Suzette and Arthur, because Hubbard had no real relationship with them and yet he's supposed to be the paragon of the second dynamic and you know the person, the ultimate authority. But his kids had problems in Scientology. They had problems. We had to deal with them. When I worked for Miscavige, arthur, hubbard was sent to the RPF out at Happy Valley and we had to deal with him while he was out there and I felt completely out of place. You know, just crazy stuff.
Speaker 3:Arthur had a wife and a stepson and the Guardian's office didn't like that. Her father was a politician in France and they forced him to divorce her Because they didn't want that political connection through France. You know that's terrible. They don't have that right yeah, yeah, exactly, all right.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask you another question on a different angle of parenting. How about who's that? Is that janice's dog?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think the bug, I think the bug man is here. That's okay, it's all right.
Speaker 2:Tell me if my audio sounds better now.
Speaker 1:Mark, just bypassed me yeah, much better, yes, sorry.
Speaker 2:I had a Zoom call and I forgot. He was like no, check. And I'm like I checked, I checked, and he's like no, you have to check over here.
Speaker 1:Anyway, he just fixed it, so sorry about that yeah, he just fixed it, so sorry okay, one of the jobs as a parent is educating, or making sure that your kids get educated and learn right. I mean, your parents obviously didn't do that because they were gone right, but what, what? What did you learn? Or, as a parent, what didn't you know about teaching or getting your kids educated? You know through all that.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, Speaking for myself. So my family moved to the US when I was 13 years old and never put me back in school. So you have to factor in those two elements in my case, number one I never went to school. And number two, I never went to school in the US, never went to school. And number two, I never went to school in the U? S. And so I for a while, when I first moved to the U? S, I was literally doing homeschool.
Speaker 2:I I do the quotation marks because what that meant is I would go to the library and study about Ferdinand Magellan and Christopher Columbus, and you know like I went from English curriculum to American, which is vastly different, completely different worlds apart and with no supervision. So when it came to my kids, I was like, oh no, education is not, is not optional 100%. You know, um, and, and it's, it's. It's challenging, especially now that they're teenagers, like you know. I don't know that we're necessarily the best yardsticks to be enforcing that on our kids. Like our kids are smart, so they'll be like well, you don't have a high school diploma, so why do I need one? And we're like, yeah, no, that's not how this works. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Not optional. You are going to graduate over my dead body.
Speaker 3:Well, I always had Paul do the homework with the kids. Yeah, because he at least went to college, where the last public school I did was I finished grade six and I did one or two months of seventh grade and that was it. So I didn't even go to high school, or two months of junior high, if it starts at seventh grade. So, yeah, I didn't even bother with the homework. I'm like Paul, you do that.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say both of you. Despite the fact that you didn't get a high school education or whatever, both of you have learned by the seat of your pants and become successful in the fields that you're in. Janice is a mortgage in the mortgage industry and Claire you in the finance and accounting industry, as well as other things. I mean, it's pretty amazing, isn't it, Don't you think that you guys I think it was your determination, I don't know what else, what do you think, what do you equate it with, and why you were so successful despite the fact that you didn't have a high school education?
Speaker 2:You go ahead, Janice.
Speaker 3:Determination, I mean, and belief in yourself. I remember you know I worked with you, mark and Paul, and Terry and Fernando, and we set up a mortgage company and so forth, and then, as time went on, you know, terry got into being a realtor and then Paul and I were the ones with the mortgage company still, and I got tired of being with Paul 24 hours, working with him and living with him.
Speaker 1:You did go out on your own too.
Speaker 4:That's nice, that's awesome, yeah, no, Claire and I had a um, we had pretty much full-time jobs, so we were, you know, we were doing our own thing for a lot of time. And then, you know, when she started working for my company and I started doing stuff with her and then so it kind of worked out good for us that way. But Claire is, I mean. I mean I would be a mess on the ground without all the stuff that Claire does. She really takes care of business for me on a lot of stuff that I wouldn't be able to do.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that bites me in the butt when he's like, come on now, you can do this X impossible task. There's nothing you can't do. I'm like, wait a minute, come on now. Yeah, I know. I would say that one thing I did take away and I don't attribute this to Hubbard, not because he's not the source of it he didn't create a dictionary, for example but I would say that I did learn that I could study anything and learn it, no matter what it is, and so I had no problem getting a California realtor license when we were in California and had no problem just diving into any field that I set my heart to, and obviously it's important to find something that you love doing. But if you're willing to dive in and really work hard, there's really nothing you can't accomplish. Is my personal view, and and um, you know it's. It does take persistence and long hours and willing to, you know, do whatever it takes, but you can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and Mark, mark, you're the same too, mark, because you started your business from nothing. I mean, how did you learn about all the audio stuff and all this? I mean, didn't you just learn it yourself, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for the most part I sort of dabbled in that when I was working at Golden Air Productions. Over the many, over the 15 years I was there, I was either overseeing audio visual systems or I was in charge of film production or video production or manufacturing, so I sort of had a very wide-ranging knowledge base of audiovisual stuff. And so when I left, I actually went and worked at a production company that made movies like Movies of of the week and TV shows, uh, in their post-production department. And then, um, and when that ended, um, they actually just closed down the whole uh sort of post-production uh department that I worked in. But, um, after they did that, um, I was sort of like I need to start my own thing so that I don't have a job hanging over me that Scientology, can you know, get me fired from. So the only person who's not going to fire me is me, so I'm going to have to work for me. That's pretty much how that ended up, and the same thing for Claire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you reminded me of another story that relates to becoming a parent after Scientology.
Speaker 4:I'm going to duck out because I got to get ready for my five at my five o'clock show with Mitch so thanks guys.
Speaker 2:Thanks, honey See you in a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it reminded me. Mark just reminded me of the fact. So, when I was pregnant in LA, so we're and I mentioned the baby shower. Well, the night before we had that baby shower, um, mark was a manager for a post-production company making movies for Hallmark, and they shut down the entire department. And and I was a an office manager for a company that managed farmer's markets, but I was intending to take time off. So, all of a sudden, you know, the night before the night of our baby shower, we find out that, you know, we're in hot water.
Speaker 2:So February 2006 was the month our first son was born, and that month we started three small businesses and that's where I discovered that. You know, I first learned about QuickBooks and I was like, oh, I love this, this is amazing, and you know, just dove headfirst in and I did, of course, did all the training and certifications, but I found I had such a love for that, and I've always loved math, of course. But you know, it was just, it was. It's just an interesting journey that you find yourself on, but you know, it was just, it was. It's just an interesting journey that you find yourself on and you know, I just would always, and I always tell my kids to like do something you love. You know, find your path. Do something you love, help people make the world a better place. That's, that's all we can hope for for our kids, right.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly, no-transcript. And I just kept pushing myself and it is You've got to drive yourself to achieve things.
Speaker 2:Yes, very definitely, and do hard things yes.
Speaker 1:And, like you said, Claire, I mean it's not Hubbard, right, but I will don't you have to say, though, we did learn the ability to make things go right, and you know, high priority, we're going to get it done. We're going to get it done, and that translates into other things, right? It's not necessarily I mean people in the military the same way, right?
Speaker 2:True, yes, yeah, and I did. And I think I've told this story before, but I did originally kind of be like, well, at least I have a good work ethic. And then a friend of ours was like, well, is that what you attribute your your success to, or was it the catalyst of leaving and having to start your life over again? And that really gave me pause because I was like, hmm, you know what? You got a really good point there because I was not accomplishing much of anything. Busy work, really. Uh, I mean, yes, I was in high executive positions but, um, you know, at the end of the day, what do I have to show? Did I help a person? Uh, I don't know. You know, you just go. Really, did I really help somebody? Now I can say very definitely yes, in many, many ways I can. I can say ways that I've, you know, helped my kids or helped people escape Scientology through the Aftermath Foundation, you know, and it's incredibly rewarding and something tangible that you can go. Yes, this is what I accomplished.
Speaker 3:Right, right. And I did that with the mortgage business. I mean, I worked my way up and became the president of the Nevada Mortgage Association. All the state, Well for the whole state.
Speaker 3:But then I was even selected and appointed to the Mortgage Advisory Council for the state of Nevada and I chief being chairman of that, and I believe that was all through determination and pushing and my desire to help. Yes, because through those positions I then make contacts with congressmen and senators and this type of thing, and senators and this type of thing, and I even went before one of their congressional committees, you know, to discuss the whole mortgage industry. And that is from my desire to help people. Now that I'm not so involved in the mortgage business, my attention is now on helping Scientologists and ex-Scientologists, you know. Yes, completely.
Speaker 2:Because I know.
Speaker 3:I have that ability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, completely. I want to ask a final question because we're getting close on time and this may take a little bit of time. I found out when I was talking to Janice's daughter, erin, taking her to the airport one day. I told her about the fact that her father purchased the free winds and bought a ship and all that, and she had no idea. She was 28 years old and she goes. You're kidding me? I said, yeah, didn't you know what your mother? No, I didn't know anything. I said your mother was in charge of whole continents on the planet in Scientology and did lots of things at a very young age. You didn't know. No, no. And I said haven't you read her books? No, I haven't read her books. I said why she goes? Because I think they're going to be too sad. So my question is what did you discuss with your children about your time in Scientology and how much do they really know about your history in it?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, to answer from me, I've always kept it, tried very hard to keep it age appropriate as they grew older. And so, for example, when my oldest son was seven, one day he said, mom, when did your mom die? And I was like, son, she's not dead. And I explained the whole concept of high control organizations and that she's not allowed to talk to us and hopefully one day she'll wake up and be back in our lives.
Speaker 2:But in the meantime we have wonderful people like Cece from Cece's Comfort Cooking Channel, who is, for all intents and purposes, the grandma that my kids know and love.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, I don't know about you, but I think she makes a darn good grandma. And they're like, oh yeah, she's amazing, like yeah, so there you go, you know, and again I've I've separated out my own emotions versus what I'm kind of, you know, uh, projecting onto them and just separating that out. But, um, but now that they're getting older they're kind of more in tune, like Mark and I have told the story about how our oldest, in his English class last year, was told to pick a book of a survivor and he picked Mark's book to read and do a report on. And you know, you just go. I don't ever want it to be my children's burden of the life that I lived and where I came from, but at the same token, I do want them to know who I am and who Mark is. And you know, and and it was funny because our oldest son, after he read the book, he was like filled in a lot of gaps, made a lot of sense, made, made more of a picture. I'm like, well, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:How about you, janice?
Speaker 3:Well, when I asked Aaron why she hadn't read my book, she says because I don't want to cry.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But my kids grew up hearing stories. I mean, our house was like a halfway home for people crossing. You know, we were the aftermath before the aftermath.
Speaker 2:Yes, very definitely.
Speaker 3:My kids heard all those kind of stories and we never really got into it with them, you know. But I know my daughter. She went to Celebrity Center one day and they tried to do her OCA and get her in on a course and she's like no, thank you. Oh my gosh, my grandmother started all this.
Speaker 2:Boom yeah, so don't, you can't pull any wool over my eyes.
Speaker 1:We have like yeah, just a couple minutes. We have four minutes left.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to let everyone know that at the end of this show it's going to redirect to mark and mitch brisker and maybe we'll just do another another round because, um, I, I don't know. We could try and blow through some some questions real quick.
Speaker 1:If you want, mark, no I just thought you know, since we only got a few minutes left, is I just want to remind everybody that? Yeah, claire, we really appreciate you doing this. Um, I was going to ask have your, are your kids, have they watched any of your videos on youtube? How about you? Janice's john or a Aaron watched any of our videos yet, or are they pretty much staying away? That's dad and mom stuff.
Speaker 2:My kids have watched a little bit here and there and we're like, eh, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, we had Aaron on for one of our shows. Yeah, we should love to do another one. But, yeah, let's do another one of these. This is great.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely here. I'll pop up a few super chats here real quick so we don't leave anyone hanging. Laura Estrada I work with and am an advocate for autistic kids. Throughout the horrible neglect stories Claire you rock had shared, I often wondered how parents handle special needs in the selfish cult, if at all. Yeah, so that's a great question. And no, unfortunately they are neglected awfully. I remember one kid in England and it was just not good because Scientology treats them as degraded beings, which Demasterson verdict. I thought it in poor taste, if not trying. Yes, jason, I saw your email. Thank you so much and thanks for being here. Let's see here. We got two more minutes here. Here we go. G Nome, much love to you all. If you have any book recommendations in this area, would love to hear Awesome. Yeah, janice, we'll bring that to the next show.
Speaker 1:How about that? Yeah, okay, okay, perfect. We want to remind everybody to subscribe to our channels too, right, claire?
Speaker 2:Yes, very definitely Blown for Good. And Our Scientology Stories Peeling the Onion with Janice Gillum Grady and Mark Fisher. Do us a favor. Hit that subscribe button, Hit that bell notification button. It helps with everything. And thanks to everybody here today.
Speaker 1:Selena button. It helps with everything.
Speaker 3:And thanks to everybody here today. Selena, Michelle, what else do?
Speaker 4:they need to do. Janice rock, slam the like button.
Speaker 2:There you go, Selena Michelle. My daughter has issues and has disconnected from the family. It's hard. My heart feels for you guys. Love SPTV, hit the like button. I'm so sorry, Selena Michelle, but yes, we very definitely feel that. Gary Jackson Moorhead in the house hey, good people, hey Jackson, sending all the love. Good to see you here. Stephanie AFC, Claire English is, of course, the best. There you go. And then, last but not least, Dan Vestivo in the house. Y'all are awe-inspiring. Your motivation and drive are something we can all learn from OSA excretes, poo aromas, Always consistent with theme and discussion. So anyway, we have one minute left. It was awesome seeing you guys. Thanks for the great idea, both of you Always a fun chat and I'm sorry we were having audio issues. I know what to look for now.
Speaker 1:No, you're fine, you did fine. It was fun. There's a lot of fun and we had definitely do it again.
Speaker 2:Yes, very definitely, and maybe we can just tell people hey, if there's more specific things you'd like us to target in, terms of our parenting discussions comment in the video um, and we will put it on the agenda. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Awesome, automatically going to switch over. Is that what's going to happen, or what I?
Speaker 2:think I have to end the stream and then it will redirect. Okay, bye for now. Bye everybody. Bye everybody.
Speaker 4:Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have hail Zinu Zinu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.
