Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Marc Headley worked at Scientology’s secret desert compound, which houses all Scientology management, for 15 years. The 500-acre property is located deep in the California desert. The local townspeople were told lectures and films were made there. But is that all that was happening? It is the location of a multi-million dollar home for L. Ron Hubbard, built two decades after his death. It is the home of Scientology’s current leader, David Miscavige. So what really happens at the Int Base? Are the stories on the internet true? How does Scientology conduct management of its day-to-day operations? Could stories of armed guards, weapons, staff beatings, and razor wire fences be true? If so, how could a facility like this exist in modern-day America? Hundreds of staff tried to escape over the years. Some succeeded but were never seen or heard of again, and most failed. Why were people kept here? What really went on at the headquarters of Scientology? This is the story of what happened behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.
Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Unmasking Scientology's Suppressive Declare Orders - Scientology Stories #53
Tony Ortega and Claire Headley examine a newly revealed Scientology document that exposes the church's step-by-step process for declaring enemies and using confidential information against them.
• The document is a checklist for writing Suppressive Person declares, confirming what ex-members have claimed for decades
• Scientology regularly violates its own confidentiality policies, using personal confessions from "auditing" sessions against people who leave
• The declare orders are deliberately crafted to prevent sympathy and include "dead agent" material to destroy credibility
• Scientology's organizational structure is designed to protect David Miscavige while maintaining his absolute control
• Despite church claims in court about respecting confidentiality, the document proves they systematically gather and weaponize personal information
• Claire shares her 2005 experience of being declared a Suppressive Person three days after escaping the organization
• Both discuss the challenge of convincing courts and media of Scientology's true nature despite overwhelming evidence from former members
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Welcome back to the channel. I'm your host for today, claire Headley, and I am joined today by none other than Tony Ortega. Hey, tony, good to see you. Hello, claire, thank you for having me on. Of course, always a pleasure. Yes, it has been a minute since we've talked and done anything, so of course, we often make reference to your blog, which I will link in the description to this video as well, and that post that you put up a few days ago is what inspired me to want to have this conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was very nice to hear from you. I you never know what is going to hit with readers. You know I'm at Substack now, tonyortegasubstackcom, and I like to cover what's happening right now in Scientology as far as what kind of you know promotional materials we can get out so we get a sense of what they're doing. I like to cover the litigation going on, so I have some really big posts this week about Leah Remini's lawsuit. Part of it is on appeal and we look at those documents. But also I like the history of Scientology.
Speaker 2:I like to go back and look at things that have happened in the past and there are some documents from around the era of 2005, 2007 that have been gradually coming out, and it's just so many of them that it takes a while to kind of sift through them and I thought this was kind of an interesting document from that era and I put it up and, wow it was. It got even more reaction than I expected and then when I heard from you, then I knew I'd really hit pay dirt, because I know something like that. You know it's not going to impress you too much, but the way that one did, what do you want me to describe it?
Speaker 1:Yes, sure, and, and actually before we do that, we do that. I wanted to give a bit more of an intro of you, because I'm sure I've known of you and your work exposing Scientology since 2009, but I think you were doing it even before that. When did your work exposing Scientology as a journalist begin?
Speaker 2:This November will be 30 years, Claire.
Speaker 1:Wow, there you go. Congratulations for your upcoming anniversary and thank you for your dedication and persistence. As you know, I know it's not for the faint of heart, and anyway, I just wanted to kind of give you a tip of the hat and a pat on the back or whatever else for just day in, day out, consistently doing the work.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, yeah, and I was so fortunate that in that time 2009, when I got to know you guys Mark's book was coming out. I was the editor-in-chief of the Village Voice in New York, so I got to write about Mark's book for that. That was great. And then you guys went through that stupid legal thing where Scientology was basically trying to blackmail you and I got to write about that. So I was very fortunate that I got to write about some really interesting things in your story. And then, of course, we've kept in touch over the years and I've had a website over at TonyOrtegaorg, but now I'm at Substack, which I really, really like. It's adfree. That's the best thing about those long stories is you're not going to be bugged with ads, but anyway, and it's a good platform for posting documents like this.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, absolutely so. With that said, go ahead, and then we'll pull up. As I mentioned before we started, I have some slides and I also felt it was fitting to throw in my SP to Claire, just since it was Well, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm really looking forward to what you know your thoughts are on this document. Yes, I mean, one of the things I think you learn about very early on. When you're learning about Scientology somebody that's never been in, like myself the first things you learn is this idea of a suppressive person that L Ron Hubbard, when he was inventing all this stuff back in the early 50s, was talking about survival, and the thing that makes survival difficult is called suppression, and then he decided that the people that had become enemies of the church which he started calling it after 1953, were suppressive people. These were people that not only were keeping you, holding you back, but were holding back the church of Scientology. So it was basically the way the church declares an enemy is an SP. Most of the time when Scientology declares an SP, it's somebody who was in the church of Scientology that has run afoul of the organization in one way or the other, and traditionally you know Scientology.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I love about Scientology is that it documents everything right. It just it writes everything down, which is great for me as a journalist. And so when they decided to declare you as an enemy in the old days. They wanted to make sure you knew about it, and so they would give you what's called a declare or declare order. They would declare you a suppressive person, and to make sure that it stood out, that particular kind of issue was put on golden rod paper. Right, that's a yellow orangish paper. So people would talk about did you get your golden rod when you got declared Okay?
Speaker 2:So now you know the lingo right and these things were when people were getting kicked out in the 60s, 70s and 80s. You would expect you'd get to not only see your declare, but you'd probably get a copy. And the other thing that was characteristic and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, claire was that you know who knows why they were really kicking you out. Maybe you looked at L Ron Hubbard the wrong way, or maybe you said something to David Miscavige. He didn't like. But by the time they put together a declare and gave it to you, it listed all these horrible crimes that you're supposedly guilty of. You know.
Speaker 1:Yes, completely 100%. Mark Mark, teasing me all the time he's like oh, I thought you were a rule follower and that you were, uh, you know, like he didn't think I was ever going to leave just because I was born into it and, you know, all my family was in and so forth. But anyway to your point. He jokes that when, when I got my declare, he was like man, you're worse than me, you're like the wicked witch of the west. According to that document which we'll get to, right.
Speaker 2:So they and so they. They do that. They make it and as another aside, it's probably worth it here is that you know there's been all this stuff lately about neiliman, who was a Scientologist, grew up in Scientology, and the famous sci-fi fantasy author who's now being accused of terrible sexual problems with these women, and so there's been a lot of coverage and I have been covering the Gaiman family for years and years and years, and so a lot of reporters have called me and they all want to ask me about David Gaiman's Declare. Because, see, neil's father, david Gaiman, was probably the most well-known Scientologist in all of the United Kingdom. He was the spokesman for Scientology in England and at one point he was declared and they put out this goldenrod about him. He then went back in later Because that's the other thing about it is, you can work your way back in, but this declare is awful.
Speaker 2:It accuses of all these sexual crimes. And so all these reporters have called me and I said listen, you've got to understand. The one thing you cannot believe is a declare Okay, just because it says all these things about him doesn't mean any of it happened. So please keep that in mind. I mean, maybe he did some bad things, I don't know, but you cannot take the declare as evidence of anything, all right, so that's the background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no. And to add to that, why? Because, as you said, most of those declared have exited Scientology, so Scientology uses the declare as a vessel by which they, in Scientology's words, dead agent. That person, so they will not be listened to, will have no influence or voice with any other Scientologists.
Speaker 2:Right. And so they're writing the declare, not only to tell you why you're being kicked out and you're an enemy, but then they show it to other people to explain. This is why this person's gone now and this is why you should never talk to them again.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:So you know again, this is very well known in Scientology. We all know about declares and golden rods and people like you that are shocked by the things that are listed in your declare. Why this new document is so interesting is that it's the first time I've seen it. It's the actual checklist you're supposed to follow when you write a declare. This is the instructions on what you're supposed to do. I mean, my very first impression when I saw this was man, writing a declare is a pain in the butt. All these issues and references you have to look up and then all these steps you have to follow and of course, it's Scientology, so it's repetitive and a lot of busy work. But yeah, there it is. Here's what you need to do to write a declare and, of course, now that we can see it.
Speaker 1:it makes perfect sense, right, claire? Of course there's a checklist like this is a checklist for is outlined. You know I've often commented that the ideal Sea Org member in my opinion is an android. Like no emotion, just get it done, do the steps you know, and if you're not going to do it, then they'll get rid of you and someone else will do it. You know, that's just kind of the nature of the organization and how it works. But yes, I know completely it's. I'm going to put my glasses on because I'm getting old, so I'm going to go ahead and pull up the first slide here so we can take a look here. Let me see here. There we go. Ok, let's see here. That works. You can see that, all right.
Speaker 2:There we go. Okay, let's see here that works. You can see that. All right, I'm just pulling it up on mine as well so that I have a real close vision of it. Where is it?
Speaker 1:You should see it on the screen here, do you not? Maybe you don't see it on your screen. Oh, here it is here it is, I'm sorry, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:I was just pulling it up on my own, just so that I'm okay. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, no, you're good. So checklist for assembling a suppressive declare issue. And again, you just described what this is. Yeah, and, by the way, so I just took this screenshot because look at all these policies writing of an ethics order, how to write an EDO order, writing a declare order, completed staff work, how to get approval of projects and actions. I mean, on any one of these policies, tony, we could probably spend four hours going through the policy right.
Speaker 2:We could probably spend four hours going through the policy right. My question for you, though, when I saw that was okay, this, like I said, to me this looks like a lot of work. On the other hand, all of those might be very familiar to somebody like you. Would you, in other words, when they put that list, you would say, oh, I know all these, no problem. Or would they? Would that take you some work or not?
Speaker 1:No, no, all these, no problem, or would that take you some work or not? No, no, I mean. So. For example, let's see the first three writing of an ethics order, how to write an ED order, writing a declare order. Those are all in OEC volume one. So it's the green volumes. There's the seven green volumes, from zero to seven, and then there's the management series. Also, many of these references are included in multiple volumes, like completed staff work.
Speaker 1:You study that policy before you even become a member of the C organization, like it's 101, but gosh, the amount of times probably any staff member studies some of these is in the hundreds easily.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, absolutely Very, very familiar. The viewpoint policy that's always a funny one for me because that's kind of what I used to begin my deconstruction process of cult programming in terms of Scientology, because you know if you can take a piece of information and just go, well, yeah, because it covers the concept that there's multiple points of view. So in fact and I haven't looked at this policy in decades, so I did not look at this newly for this interview, but as by my recollection and paraphrase, one of the examples given is if you have a car accident, you know, and eight people witnessed the car accident. They're each going to have different perspectives of what happened and they're each going to have different perspectives of what happened, and you know, and also kind of just looking at different points of view and information and perspective. So, yeah, I was like, you know, it's referred to as the multiple viewpoint system in Scientology. So I was like, well, what's wrong with reading Barefaced Messiah by Russell Miller? It's just a viewpoint.
Speaker 2:Right, very good.
Speaker 1:It was the. You know, like I said it was. It was just it's ironic to me looking back, like, why was I so afraid to even just read a book? But it speaks again to the level of programming that any Scientologist has put through, particularly in my case, since I started learning the language of Scientology when I was four years old, before I even had a good grasp of the english language. Wow, so yeah, anyway. But yeah, so this, these policies, right here is uh, let's see the enemy line. If we were to print them all out, we're talking probably 50 pages of documents. Uh, that's just the premise for a declare order. So, yeah, a lot Anyway, so let's move along here.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this paragraph, this is what made me reach out to you. I'll just read it out 10. I've gathered and studied all ethics files for that individual, for the individual being declared, as well as gathered any other knowledge reports and confessional knowledge reports not in the ethics files. Stop right there and you go, wait a minute. What do you mean? Knowledge reports and confessional knowledge reports not in the ethics files? Well, let me explain it to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, as you know, the policy is that anytime someone writes a knowledge report, it gets filed in the person's ethics file. However, confessional knowledge reports makes reference to the fact of when someone is getting interrogated as part of their processing, their counseling. On the grade chart, so you know, grade two is deals with overts and withholds, and so that's, for example, when you do the obnoxious Joburg sex check and anyway you go through multiple interrogations, and because you're doing the interrogations as part of your grade chart or your bridge or you're, you know, getting up to clear, it is what's called non actionable. So it's, it's Scientology's equivalent of, you know, when you go to the priest and they forgive you for your sins. In fact, there's even a statement that the auditor makes at the end of each of these counseling sessions to forgive the person for those sins. My point being that when you're exiting Scientology or you're being declared by them, all bets are off. That's right. When you're exiting Scientology or you're being declared by them.
Speaker 1:All bets are off. That's right. Who doesn't matter? Doesn't matter that it was part of a you know, confessional or you know, or again this this makes reference to the PC folders being marked as confessional, priest, penitent, privileged. You know that whole statement that's on every single PC folder, which is where all the counseling is recorded in great, great, gory detail. So, yeah, so this is the examples of like, where, to me, this outlines exactly like. You know, when people ask well, what if Tom Cruise were to leave Scientology, would they have dirt on him? Hell, yes, anything he's ever confessed to, whether it be to an ethics officer, a counselor or anything else. It's it listed out right there. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2:Well, that's.
Speaker 2:I mean because look this is the eternal battle, right For journalists like me and people who have left, like you. You come out, mark comes out, so many other people come out, talk to journalists like me and we go over what's been said in the past and what's been written in the past. And every single new person who comes out says, yes, we learn about xenon ot3. Yes, we get declared. Yes, um, they will use anything you've said at any time against you if, if they decide you're an enemy and they want to smear you online. I mean, every single person has said this every single time. But what happens is the church goes into court or goes to big media companies and says and they argue in court look, the Catholic religion has this priest penitent privilege, so do we? I mean, anything these people say in their sessions is completely confidential. We would never use that material right. And the big publications feel obliged not only to give Scientology's statement but to kind of give it weight, and that just always drives me crazy.
Speaker 2:It's like you know they're lying, you know they're lying Right, but they lie to the courts as well. It drives me crazy. It's like you know they're lying, you know they're lying Right, and and then all. But they lie to the courts as well. It's just, it drives me crazy. So this is what happens time and time again. The people who come out tell us what's really going on. Scientology says no, no, no, no. And then eventually we get a document like this, which once again proves that the people like you who are coming out are the ones telling the truth Yep, and that Scientology lies about everything Yep. I don't know how many times we have to learn that lesson, but it just happens again and again.
Speaker 1:I know, I know it's absolutely. I know it's not surprising to you and I, but it is. When you just go at every turn. You know, and I think one of the more infamous ones was the we don't practice disconnection. You know the Tommy Davis. Big faux pas.
Speaker 2:Well, another one that comes to mind here and I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't. I didn't really notice that when I published it, but but, but I but, I have experience with that, particularly in Laura DiCrescenzo's lawsuit. And that one comes to mind because, you know, laura was suing Scientology for nine years in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles Times in that nine years never wrote a single word about her or her lawsuit. The only things about her lawsuit that ever appeared in the la times were ap stories they republished. They never bothered to send a reporter anyway. Um, one of the contentions in that lawsuit was pretty early on, laura. Laura and her attorneys had demanded all of her files right, because she was suing over being abused in the Sea Org and in particular being coerced into having an abortion at only 17. She was technically a child and hey, that'll be in there, that will be in those files if they can get them. So they fought and fought, and fought and the judge said of course you can have your files. Sure Order, order. Scientology fought, it, fought. It Went to appellate court. Lost. Went to state appellate court, lost. Went to the US Supreme Court. And what makes me so sick every time I think about this, this Burt Deixler, right, who's got this great reputation as a wonderful attorney in Los Angeles Ooh, he has a bookstore. Burt, as a wonderful attorney in Los Angeles Ooh, he has a bookstore.
Speaker 2:Bert Dykesler was their attorney on that and he was telling the California Supreme Court and then the US Supreme Court that the reason Scientology should not be forced to turn over those files is because they contained confidential religious material. They had to admit that Laura's files had been shared with over 200 Scientology officials. That's confidential, but 200 people had looked through them, right. What makes me so sick is he kept talking about oh, that material is so religious, judge, we can't, we can't. You know that's a violation because that's religious material. And the US Supreme Court didn't fall for it either. They finally had to turn over those files. What's in them? Sick annotations of how this poor child was abused. She was sad because she was 13 years old and missed her mother, and so they punished her for it. That's what was in the files. That's what Burt Deixler was telling courts was religious material. That's the kind of thing that should get an attorney kicked out. I don't. That's what drives me crazy is when they have these attorneys lying for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we know Scientology lies. But when they have these really high reputation attorneys willing to lie and I wish someday when Scientology is finally in bankruptcy because the FBI has raided them, I wish someday I could sit down with Burt Dykstra and say Burt, tell me the truth. Did you say that because you had actually seen what was in those files and that struck you as being religious? Or did you say that just because David Miscavige told you to do it?
Speaker 1:Right, completely, and I guarantee it's the latter, because he wouldn't have looked in the folders. Why would he. Probably not. Yeah, they get on their high horse about, and again, you're right, it's Scientology's documented practice of using religious protections to cover up abuse and crimes, day in, day out. They've been doing it for decades. And now you know as we talked about too this, this whole arbitration nonsense that now that's the next level that they're adding. Because ask me, tony, in my 30 years in Scientology, how many times did I see an arbitration?
Speaker 2:Never.
Speaker 1:Never, exactly Never.
Speaker 2:And thank goodness I don't know if Laura's case would have been susceptible or not, right she sued in 2009. They didn't start using that arbitration thing in court until the Garcia case in 2013.
Speaker 1:Right, so neither Laura's case nor our case.
Speaker 2:Had that issue Right.
Speaker 1:We did not.
Speaker 2:They just maybe hadn't dreamed that up yet, but what happened?
Speaker 1:That's exactly what they hadn't done. They hadn't dreamed that up, yet they hadn't used their million dollar law firms to concoct their next loony bin excuse as to how they can use, you know, get away with just covering up what they they, how they abuse people and anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we could go on and on about it and anyway, yeah, we could go on and on about that. For those who are curious and maybe don't know her case that well because it's been a while, she sued for nine years $2,000. In 2018, she had to win two motions for summary judgment. I don't even know why they got two a second time, but I was in court for both of those. Twice. She had to run that gauntlet and had to be deposed, and all this stuff took years and years and years. Finally, and then she got her files.
Speaker 2:They went all the way to the US Supreme Court for that Incredible case. Again, not one word in LA Times. And then finally, in 2018, they had a trial date. They finally had a trial date and the coup de grace was that Laura's attorneys, just before the trial, served Dave so he would have to attend, and that's when Dave were a check to make it all go away. But I mean, there's no way Dave could allow a trial anyway. There's no way a jury is not going to hear this stuff and be absolutely fucking horrified.
Speaker 2:So, that's why Scientology can't let your case go to a trial, can't let Laura's case, can't let Leah's case there's no way Like right now in Laura's case. Can't let Leah's case there's no way Like right now that Leah's case. I'm making all these arguments about things, but Dave knows there's a jury sitting there listening to how a church supposedly a church is calling Leah Remini a bigot and a racist and all these ridiculous things online and slimy her and her kid Right.
Speaker 2:Oh, that wouldn't last five minutes in front of a jury, and Dave knows it.
Speaker 1:Yep, you're absolutely right, but it is it is so great.
Speaker 2:Get back to this subject. It is so great to have it in black and white. There it is. They, they pull from everywhere. They pull every bit of dirt they possibly can on you to write a declare confidentiality. Give me a break.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, it's no holds barred, nothing, no, no, there's nothing. They won't do to completely smear and destroy the character of the person to be declared. Exactly, right. So then here I'm just going to pop this back up here. Yep, yeah, I've also gathered data from the CFs, the case supervisor, supervisors and any other staff member who had dealings with that individual. What does that mean? The moment the person escaped or took off or whatever, or you know, ran away, or um, they, scientology, will go around and make every single staff member right Knowledge reports on that person, uh, and of course, they're gone. So you know, they're it. Technically, I mean whatever that's, that's the wrong word to say in Allegedly by the policy written, you're supposed to be able to face your accuser. Well, of course that doesn't happen. Point being that that's what this is in reference to.
Speaker 2:Well, the way I understand it, Claire, is there's two different reports. People write on each other A knowledge report, a KR the person being written about gets a copy. But then there's also something called a things that should not be report, and the person being written about does not get a copy of that.
Speaker 1:That's right. Allegedly. I've often made reference to this, though, like I wrote a things that shouldn't be report on my stepfather, hugh Witt the very same Hugh Witt who was named to counter my expert witness testimony in the Danny Masterson trial. Completely to mess with my head In, I think, 99 or I was in Religious Technology Center, so he did not. He didn't even physically know where I worked for 14 years. By the way, side comment, I wrote a things that shouldn't be report on him.
Speaker 1:He was given a copy of that by the way, and then he promptly didn't talk to me for two years, the punchline being that my mother had to tell me two years later by the way, he's not speaking to you because you wrote a report on him. I was like what, that point being like, how often did I see my family? Never, I didn't even notice in two years that my stepfather wasn't speaking to me. But yeah, that's the things that shouldn't be reported. So yeah, you're right. Anyway, back to this. This would include reports and ethics files kept by other churches, such as an advanced organization or flag, as these would be relevant to writing the issue. And yeah, that's in reference to you, you could end up with multiple ethics files in multiple organizations, though I will say that even in the later years that I was there, they were working on a computerized personnel and ethics database. Did you ever hear about this project, tony? I?
Speaker 2:don't think so.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so the point was to scan in every knowledge report from every organization anywhere, also going through the person's auditing folders, their PC folders and any other files, and computerizing a complete record of that person's entire Scientology history that would then be accessible by multiple organizations. Guess who was running that project Shelley Miscavige.
Speaker 2:That wasn't called InCommerce. That's something else.
Speaker 1:That's something else. Yeah, no, this was the personnel slash ethics database project.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, well, I, I assume they've got something like that now. But even today we can see when they're opening these ideal orgs. They still have these massive central files projects. So Scientology is, it's clear. Even if they have computerized to a certain extent, scientology is still completely committed to the idea of paper files on everybody.
Speaker 1:Yes, 100%, and they can't change that because that's Hubbard policy obviously.
Speaker 1:Though you know that, because that's Hubbard policy, obviously, Though you know, anyway, that's a conversation for another day. Okay, so then let's see what else to hear. I think that was the main. To obtain this information, send a telex to the director of inspections and reports or a master at arms of those orgs, informing them that you're putting together an SP declare on that person and why, and for them to send you reports and any other relevant data. I know it's just, it's just mind boggling right here. Let me see what I have next here and then here. I think you highlighted this in your post, so I included it because, yeah, let's go through these. I've written the declare issue in accordance with the above references and a test that I think your favorite on this was the issue does not spread, oh no, the issue does not engender sympathy for the person being declared.
Speaker 2:That's just amazing. I mean, you know you wouldn't think if somebody had really committed crimes and you were listing these horrible crimes a person committed, you wouldn't think for a moment that I hope people aren't going to like the person because of that. But of course you know the way these are written. The crimes are so ridiculous that they have to be careful that they aren't turning these people into martyrs and heroes.
Speaker 1:Correct, yeah, exactly, which which is yeah. And my favorite was the issue does not spread black PR, so black propaganda. So just to kind of back up for a moment there, this would be, for example, if Billy Bob says bob says well, I'm out of here because david miscavige punched me in the face, uh, so they can't say, oh, billy bob alleged right, david miscavige punched me in the face and 50 people watched him do it, because that would be black propaganda or black public relations, whatever, I can't right because it's interchangeable.
Speaker 2:Somebody looking at it might say, well, is david muskavage hitting people and that's not the thought you want to cross their mind? These are written again. We'll say it again. It's not just for the person that's been kicked out but for other people to read. So they look at it and go, oh, look at the horrible things this person did. Thank goodness they're gone, gone. Yes and the last thing you want is any kind of sympathy there at that point.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right, and preferably even read it and go oh yeah, that's right. I remember back in 1962, he was mean to me too, so let me write another knowledge report on him for that too.
Speaker 2:And. I like this other one.
Speaker 1:I didn't notice before and I, like this other one, I didn't notice before the listed high crimes are all in capital letters, right, I know that struck me too. I was like um, and I of course I've seen many. Uh, you know it, goldenrod is actually loosely termed. It's not just a declare, it's any action taken by the ethics, by the ethics department, so committee of evidence, which I've had, I think, three committees of evidence in my years in the C organization and yeah, I, it's funny because I saw that and I was like I didn't realize that that was actually a thing probably dictated somewhere in Hubbard's policy, like it needs to be capital letters, like the yesteryear version of yelling over text. Right, oh, my gosh, yes, oh, and the facts are covered and dead agent data on the person is included in the body of the issue.
Speaker 2:I mean, we kind of touched on this already, but just to reiterate, I mean it's a key concept in Scientology that comes from Hubbard, and that is you know, people leave Scientology. They're unhappy, they criticize the church rather than answer those allegations. So, in other words, you know somebody comes out of the church and says you know, they use this terrible leverage to rip my family apart. Scientology never comes back and says, no, they're misinterpreting the thing. No, they come back and say you know that person is, you know they're committing this crime or that crime. They go after the person's reputation and what Hubbard said about that was if you can smear them, they become a dead agent. In other words, nobody will listen to them. So it doesn't matter if their criticism is valid, if you've gone after their reputation, and that's what they do to me, to you, to Leah, to Mike, to Ron, every single person.
Speaker 2:They never tried to answer the allegations we were making about what the Church of Scientology does, tried to answer the allegations we were making about what the Church of Scientology does. They all went after our character with just nonsense. You know to try to make and then you can see it. So you know, for example, they throw certain stupid things at me that are untrue, but then I will see somebody like a whale, somebody that I've, you know, talked about. They've given millions of dollars and something will come up about me online that says oh, I know all about that guy. He did X, y and Z. That's why the dead edge of material is for to give Scientologists something they can use to automatically dismiss that person.
Speaker 1:That's what they want to do.
Speaker 1:Yep, exactly, they want no one who's exited Scientology to have a voice ever, under any circumstances. Not only they would like to think that they have that control over the general public, but that's not really what's important to them. It's to keep the remaining members in, like, keep my mother in Scientology and not talking to me in like, keep my mother in Scientology and not talking to me. Keep my sisters, my brother, you know, people that know, knew me personally uh, who, who I would be able to influence to leave Scientology, you know anyway, yes, crazy, crazy. Okay, let's see here. Oh, I had a very specific reason for including this, tony.
Speaker 1:Just to kind of highlight something. So I've submitted the completed staff work to AVC-INT Ethics Authority. This is Authorization, Verification, Correction, International Ethics Authority. So AVC is the unit that has to approve any and all anything that's issued in Scientology, even communications that would go to management. And I was in ABC in Religious Technology Center from 97 until the year 2000. In 2004, when I was removed from Religious Technology Center for the quote, unquote crime of refusing to divorce my husband, Mark of 13 years, the entire AVC unit was also removed from Religious Technology Center and placed under Commodore's Messenger Organization International.
Speaker 1:So it was moved under management for one reason, and one reason only, because it was in Religious Technology Center which created a paper trail that proved and documented that David Miscavige approves everything right yeah, anyway, and again, obviously moving it from one moving avc from religious technology center to commodore's messenger org doesn't change anything because still, everything that gets done in Scientology is based on David Miscavige's orders. I just I wasn't sure if you were aware of that move and the purpose in the history of Scientology.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know that ABC is one of those really important things in Scientology that rarely gets discussed, rarely gets exposed, but I know how important it is, but I was not aware of that move.
Speaker 2:But that sounds exactly like what is going on right now in Leah Remini's lawsuit, where she not only sued the Church of Scientology International that runs all of these scummy online accounts that are smearing her, but she also sued RTC and Dave. And then in court RTC said well, there's nothing in here that is specifically about us we want out. And so the judge thankfully gave Leah a little time so that you and Mike Rinder could write declarations and say look, church Scientology international doesn't do a thing without the approval of RTC and David Miscavige Exactly like what you're saying right here. And that's the thing is like they've set it up this way so they can go into court and say things like that, Like, oh, all RTC does is assure the purity of the tech. Rtc would never get involved in anything as sorted as a smear campaign. And of course you and Mike, your declarations, say of course they do. Rtc runs everything, David Miscavige runs everything. So we'll see how that plays out in court, but it's so frustrating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, by the way, do you know how? I'm sure you've seen this before, but I don't think you and I have ever talked about this and you likely already know this, but it's worth mentioning in this context anyway, in my opinion, on any organization, org board, the chart, the structure that they have up on the walls by mandate of L Ron Hubbard in every organization, Religious Technology Center is depicted on every single organizing chart as a triangle, like a little flag in the upper what is it? Upper left corner. Have you seen that before?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I've ever noticed that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, the reason why it's that shape and size is because Religious Technology Center isn't governed by the chain of command that mandates every other organization in Scientology. That triangle represents that they can go in at any level, anywhere, as a policing organization of Scientology.
Speaker 2:And that was key to the 2002, what was it affidavit that Von Young submitted that finally won Lawrence Wollersheim's case after all those years was that Von Young put together this beautiful affidavit where he explained the real structure of Scientology and he said look, there's this whole alphabet soup CSI, asi, cst, rtc but all that matters is that the Sea Org runs everything and can step in at any time. It says it right here the Sea Org at any time can walk into any org and take over and the Sea Org is run by only one person the captain of the Sea Org. And the captain of the Sea Org is David Miscavige. He put that together.
Speaker 2:Lawrence Wollersheim had been fighting for decades to get his money out of Scientology. They had always vowed not one thin dime for Wollersheim, and that one affidavit was so effective and showed that Scientology was always making these excuses. Well, this organization doesn't have control of the money and we don't know where the money is. And it's like no, david Miscavige runs everything. He knows where the money is. And the day that that affidavit was going to be discussed in open court and I went down to the courthouse, scientology came in with a $9 million check to make it go away.
Speaker 2:They did not want that affidavit being discussed because it's so go away.
Speaker 2:They did not want that affidavit being discussed because it's so. It's such a great indictment of how Scientology is really set up. For one man and Scientology knows that's dangerous. If the IRS gave a shit, that's exactly the kind of thing that they're not supposed to be doing and anyway, so that's, you're right. I mean it's an alphabet soup. Look at that. I mean you know ABC, rtc, wdc, watchdog Committee, right? I mean it doesn't matter. David Miscavige is captain of the Sea Org and he doesn't like being called captain in court. We found out about that. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny, you're talking about that declaration. Of course I knew nothing about Larry Waller-Schein his case, none of that. But I was working in Religious Technology Center at that time and had to were talking in promotional materials about the Sea Organization, and that's also right around the time that David Miscavige stopped wearing Sea Org uniform.
Speaker 2:I think the last time I've seen him in one was in 2006 on Maiden Voyage week on the free wins Yep. He wore one, which I thought was interesting because he had the captain's jacket but a bow tie. That's the last time I remember seeing him and he was listed on the screen as Captain David Miscavige.
Speaker 1:There you go. Somebody probably got sent to the Rehabilitation Project Force for that slip up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, let's see here. I just have a couple more here. Thanks for doing this with me, tony. I appreciate it. All right, so this is just one of the policies that was referenced in that checklist Suppressive Acts, suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, and of course, you know you can Google this and see this in all of its glorious mundane detail.
Speaker 2:That's the big one, right.
Speaker 1:It is the big one. It is the big one. This is a little off topic, but I saw this when I was looking at the policy. The families and adherents of suppressive persons or groups may not receive processing. It does not matter whether they are or are not Scientologists. If the families or adherents of suppressive persons or groups are knowingly processed, any auditor doing so is guilty of a misdemeanor. So, for context, david Miscavige's father, ron Miscavige may he rest in peace an amazing person who wrote the book Ruthless, is obviously a suppressive person by Scientology policies, as you would say of David Miscavige's niece, jenna Miscavige, who also wrote a book Beyond Belief, and I could list more and more family members, by the way, the point being that David Miscavige, according to this, cannot be processed.
Speaker 2:He's an illegal PC. But you know what, Claire? He doesn't get processing right and he hasn't since, like the early 90s, right.
Speaker 1:Correct. That's right. He has not since 1993, to my knowledge received any Scientology counseling. And this is just one policy. By the way, there are many other policies, personnel policies, that say that, by this same premise, anyone who is connected to a suppressive person does not qualify for an executive position in Scientology. So yeah, the head of Scientology, by this premise, is a potential trouble source. So no wonder Scientology is shrinking and failing.
Speaker 2:Right, it's good to be king is a potential trouble source. So no wonder Scientology is shrinking and failing right. It's good to be king, and when you're king, obviously the rules don't apply to you. And he not only is violating these rules, but look, I mean yeah, I mean that's. I think that may be the number people ask me. Okay, you get to interview miscavige first thing. You ask him what are you gonna ask him? And I've thought about that and I and I thought that maybe the best first question to ask david miscavige is are you a still a scientologist? Do you get audited?
Speaker 1:yep, and, and I get. We get asked this, this question, the time, and so I'm curious to know your answer to this. Do you think he's a staunch believer or do you think he's just?
Speaker 2:a power hungry psychopath, right? That's the eternal question. And I think it applies to Hubbard as well. And maybe one thing that I've done that maybe most journalists don't have time for is I actually have gone back and read hundreds of Hubbard's lectures, the early ones. My favorite vintage is 1963. That's when he's the most off the hook with all the space opera and stuff.
Speaker 2:I've read all those and, yeah, you have to ask yourself when he's telling people, for example, that you can create a car out of thin air, that's not a big deal. The big deal is to you know, that's always his move. It's like people will teach me how can I make a car out of thin air? No, no, that's the easy part. Let's talk about the hard part. Right, that's always his move. Right, he always acts like a. So when you're thinking about that, come on, he knows. He knows he can't create a car out of thin air. So what is he doing? Right? He's messing with people, right, isn't he messing with people?
Speaker 2:And once you get that thought in your head, now go back and read those early lectures. Oh, it's just all over the place. In virtually every lecture he's seeing how far he can push these people, like I'm going to throw this out there and see if these idiots buy it. You can really see this kind of sneering disregard for his own followers. So I've always thought, okay, there's the con man thing. Right, he knowingly he's conning these people, he knows it, he's actually kind of enjoying it, he's seeing how far he can push them. He doesn't believe a word of it.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, I remember Lawrence Wright talking about this that if it was just about money, he had made so much money he could walk away. And then Lawrence had interviewed steve faul and I think this is the lecture that. I think that's the interview that I think really moved a lot of people and that's the idea of l ron hubbard in his final days out at the ranch near creston, california, and he's asking steve faul to go check. He thought he saw phhaeton out by the fence. Can you go check that? Okay, sure, okay, he was probably starting to become senile, but it suggests that there was some level where he had started to buy into all of this.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think with a unique figure like L Ron Hubbard, it is possible to be both. It is possible both to know that you're lying to people, know that you're conning people, but then also sort of believe yeah, I did discover the secrets of the universe. I really have traveled to Venus, these things are real. I think it's possible for both those things to inhabit in L Ron Hubbard. Okay, so then you go to Dave in L Ron Hubbard. Okay, so then you go to Dave. You see similar evidence on both sides. I mean, we know that he sees the actual enrollment figures. We know that David Miscavige, of all people, knows this whole line that Tommy Davis would spout. We've had more expansion in the last five years than we've had in 50.
Speaker 2:They're just making it up. We know that David Miscavige knows the real numbers are terrible. He's lying, he's just a con man. On the other hand, there are the stories about the copper rods at base at gold the copper rods where he wanted to be able to discharge charge into the ground or whatever, and that he did not like to be around children. He really felt that body things could leap off of children and get onto him. So I don't know how much stock to put in that. I've heard different things from people that knew him and say I wouldn't put that much stock in it.
Speaker 2:I think it is possible that with David Miscavige, like with L Ron Hubbard, it's a combination where he knows the real numbers, he knows he's lying to people, he knows that they don't achieve these things in scientology. On the other hand, it's so tempting to think that, yeah, you are the most important human being on the entire planet, right, isn't that? What isn't that what tom cruise told nasa boniati that the most important person on the planet today is David Miscavige. Right, you know, maybe Dave buys that. So I think it is possible to be both. But on the other hand, if he hasn't had auditing since 1993, how can he be the ecclesiastical leader of Scientology?
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, that's just not.
Speaker 2:You make a good point too, I mean that's.
Speaker 1:you make a. You make a good point too. Um, I will say that you know in the eight years that I worked very closely with David and Shelly Miscavige absolutely hands down, I think he's in the top three. He might actually be number one. I'd have to think about that for a moment. The most paranoid individual I have ever met and like assuming that people were out to get him, assuming, you know, that people were spying on him and watching him and this and that and the other thing. And that actually was originally why I understood he was refusing auditing because he didn't trust any of the counselors or the people who were going possibly trust an auditor with your innermost secrets.
Speaker 2:There's no way.
Speaker 1:Right, right, exactly so. He was never, but it was always deflected and it was always their fault. But it's funny, because if you pause for a second, you know, and this is a side here at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a side here just because you know, I've been in Scientology facilities. I've been in Scientology facilities, I've read all the books, I've read all the Hubbard's lectures. But people sometimes will ask me, yeah, but have you been audited? And especially indies are very critical of a journalist and say, yeah, but haven't had auditing, right. And I'm like, yeah, because I'm not crazy, right? One person did try to give me an auditing session and, like the first question, I said we're shutting this down. I'm not giving you my innermost secrets. Why? Who are you? How do you deserve them? You know what I'm saying. It's such an unequal power position to be audited by somebody and it is designed for one thing I know indies in particular will tell you oh, it's designed to make you feel better. No, it's designed to make you feel better. No, it's designed to get damaging material out of you that can be used against you later.
Speaker 1:Why would I?
Speaker 2:subject myself to that. I'd never Completely Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right. But so back to David Miscavige and his paranoia. Just to complete the thought, the funny thing is that exactly how he carries himself out is literally almost a depiction of how L Ron Hubbard describes a suppressive person. Hubbard's description of a suppressive person is that they are frozen on the time track fighting aliens or fighting Martians, I think was the exact term used and therefore they're just fighting everybody. That's what David Miscavige does on a on a day in, day out basis, at least by my personal observation. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway, okay, let's see here. I think we're almost done with these slides. Let me get it back up here just to make sure. Uh, okay, oh yeah, this was just another bit of a off topic, but where a person is secretly planning to leave and making private preparations to do so without informing the proper terminals in an org, and does leave below and does not return within a reasonable length of time, an automatic declare is to be issued. So the reason I brought this in was for context. My last slides are my, my suppressive person declare. So obviously it's talking about unauthorized. So obviously it's talking about unauthorized, like someone's planning to escape, which, to me again, just using the word blow deflects from the fact that they're not allowed to leave at any time. Even if you go on Scientology's website right now, it says in clear, bold letters a staff member can leave at any time, but not according to this, not according to this, right, okay? And so, tony, question for you what would you consider a reasonable length of time? Does not return within a reasonable length of time?
Speaker 2:Well, they leave it subjective, because when david miscavige, it's like when mark henley runs down the road, it's the first 10 seconds he's not back.
Speaker 1:That's it yeah, okay, which is kind of my point, because here let's get to the next one now. Uh, okay, so here we go. Oh, I jumped one, sorry hold on. I jumped one, sorry hold. On 27 January 2005, three days after I'd escaped.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, the day after I'd escaped, my family was shown this, according to my mother and now that you see how much the rigmarole they have to go through to produce this, it's even more impressive, right?
Speaker 1:Right, exactly so. Suppressive person declare Claire Hedley Witt is hereby declared a suppressive person. Claire was a staff member of the Church of Scientology International. Because that's where, aka, the hole is, where I escaped from. I was in the hole. I had been kicked out of Religious Technology Center, as I said, for refusing to divorce my husband, mark Headley, of 13 years at the time, church of Scientology International. She intentionally deserted her position in the church in violation of HCOPL leaving and leaves. When given the chance to standardly handle her situation per LRH policy, claire refused and chose to be declared oh my God, the word salad when given the chance to standardly handle her situation. Oh, you mean when you sent five staff to intercept me and I had to sit on my purse in the Las Vegas bus station, surrounded by Greg Wilhair, sharon Johnston whoever else knows that was outside waiting in the car to drag me back. That's when I was given the chance to standardly handle my situation. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Investigation found that Claire has a history of out tech and squirreling. This is what I mean. When Mark was like damn honey, wow, and what does that even mean? Like, what does that even mean? Not one specific Claire has audited above her classification and committed out tech, including auditing PCs on false purpose rundown procedure without any certificates. Yeah, because Shelly Miscavige told me to stop creating reasons why I couldn't do my job and to just get it done. That's why she also audited OTs without training or certification to do so. When Claire was responsible for the training and correcting of staff, she directed others to audit above their training level. Thus it's cut off anyway. You get the idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the final one Claire has given up her rights as a Scientologist by her actions and she may not receive the benefits of the codes of the church. Blah, blah, blah. Her only terminal in the church is the International Justice Chief, except that he wasn't allowed to talk to me because I'd been at the base. Except that he wasn't allowed to talk to me because I'd been at the base. So actually it was Kirsten Catano, warren McShane and Greg Wilhair who talked to me, and I don't know if I ever told you this story, tony, but two months after we had escaped and we now had co-signed an apartment with Mark's dad, bernie, and gotten jobs, and we were doing great and getting back on, you know, getting our feet on the ground, warren McShane called and said you know, your, your SP declare was put on hold, which I have that in writing from Greg Wilhair in January. They wanted us to go back and do a leaving staff security check interrogation.
Speaker 1:So I kept saying, hey, what's the deal? What's the deal? What's the deal? It's on hold, cause I was trying holding out hope that I might be able to speak to my family again. And so Warren McShane called in April. So, again like January, february, march, april, three months later, and says, oh yeah, it will stay on hold, but you have to come back and do the rehabilitation project force. That was a hell, no, hell, no. You're insane anyway.
Speaker 2:But you know it works on a lot of people. I mean, I've talked to a lot of people that escaped. But you know it works on a lot of people. I mean, I've talked to a lot of people that escaped and then they get that call Like, oh, you know, you should come back and route out properly. And so they do. And then they have to escape all over again, right, and they totally regret going back and like, say, valerie Haney, for example, valerie Haney had this incredible escape.
Speaker 2:She hid in the trunk of a car of an actor in order to get out of it base last possible day for that she could do it Amazing escape. Her father was still a Scientologist and he's like, listen, I really think you should go back and route out properly. So she did and she went back. They promised her it would only take three weeks, months later she's like you got to let me go. You got to let me go. And so they made her sit down and sign a document that they have been using against her ever since in court. So you know, that's the thing is is if there's some way we could communicate to these people that are leaving don't worry about your freeloader debt and don't go back. You don't have to go back. There's no purpose in it, it only serves them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Paraphrasing a brilliant quote by Mike Rinder, he said the way you can tell a cult is what they do when you try to leave Yep. So yep, you're absolutely right. Anyway, that's all I had, tony, but thanks, as always, for a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 2:It's always great to touch base with you and hear your thoughts and perspectives, and thanks for listening to mine that you and Mark have both done, and it's interesting to see you being talked about in more court documents and you're right in the middle of things. So I'm just hats off. I know how much harassment you guys have been through and it just seems like every time I hear from you guys you're doing great, so I'm really happy about that.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it, tony, and same to you. Thanks for the work that you have relentlessly done for so many years, and we'll, we'll, keep at it, keep going, and there you go until next time. Bye.
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