Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Marc Headley worked at Scientology’s secret desert compound, which houses all Scientology management, for 15 years. The 500-acre property is located deep in the California desert. The local townspeople were told lectures and films were made there. But is that all that was happening? It is the location of a multi-million dollar home for L. Ron Hubbard, built two decades after his death. It is the home of Scientology’s current leader, David Miscavige. So what really happens at the Int Base? Are the stories on the internet true? How does Scientology conduct management of its day-to-day operations? Could stories of armed guards, weapons, staff beatings, and razor wire fences be true? If so, how could a facility like this exist in modern-day America? Hundreds of staff tried to escape over the years. Some succeeded but were never seen or heard of again, and most failed. Why were people kept here? What really went on at the headquarters of Scientology? This is the story of what happened behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.
Blown for Good: Scientology Exposed
Severance: Cults and Corporate Control - Severance & Scientology - #3
Claire Headley and Ian Rafalko delve into the disturbing similarities between the hit show Severance and their experiences in Scientology, highlighting how the series captures cult dynamics with eerie accuracy.
• The "innie" versus "outie" identity parallels the cult versus pre-cult personality split
• Corporate control structures in Severance mirror Scientology's hierarchical authority
• The "break room" procedure's similarity to Scientology conditioning techniques
• How both organizations create scripted responses to outside questioning
• The physical control tactics like white glove inspections and constant surveillance
• The complex and obstructed process of trying to leave both organizations
• Character analysis of Milchick as the conflicted middle-management enforcer
• Season two's evolving themes and deeper exploration of institutional control
• The disappearance of characters like Gemma paralleling real cult practices
• The psychological impact of watching these dynamics play out as former members
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and welcome back to the channel. I am your host for today, claire headley, and we are joined by my special guest here, mr I Ian Rofalco.
Speaker 1:Hey, it's great to see you, hey, hey, yes, you too. We were just talking about how it's funny that I feel like I know you, but actually I've never talked to you personally, at least not face to face. You know a little bit of phone here and there, which, by the way, I would love to sometime, on a separate episode, talk with you about comparing stories about growing up in the cult of Scientology. I'm sure we could talk for hours about that, those parallels absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm uh. I'm what the I'm what they call a professional yapper. I uh, I can run on, uh. Most of my old streams went on to like four hours of me just talking about nothing, but I'm a bit more focused these days, so I feel like that would be a really fun conversation.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, I'm down for that. And today we are doing severance part three to have what I'm sure is going to be a fascinating conversation. We conversation you and I have texted a little bit about some of the crazy Severance parallels. Of course, we're talking about none other than the amazing TV show on Apple TV, severance, of which there is now season one and season two, and they locked in for season three, yay.
Speaker 2:Oh, thankfully. Oh, my gosh, I like I hadn't started until. I never started watching it, until you know, I never had apple tv plus for a while and and, uh, I started watching like the first season, I or the first episode, and I was like this is kind of boring. So I like stopped and a couple weeks later season two came out and so it's like, okay, I'll just, I'll just throw on the first episode and it struck me like like a bullet. It was insane. And then I was, I was obviously sucked in. I mean the parallels, it's like. It's like they surveyed C organ staff members specifically to draw these parallels. So I, I'm, I'm, I love the show. I'm on like the bleeding edge of like I don't think I'll be able to wait for it to uh, for season three even to come out fully before I watch it. I'm just probably going to be on the weekly um watch schedule, but uh, we did talk about it a few times. So I was, I'm, I'm excited to uh, to talk more.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, absolutely so, and and that's interesting that you say it you didn't get into it the first time. I watched it the first season, when it came out, and it really didn't. Uh, I didn't start drawing parallels right away, I will say that, but the moment it hit, it hit me like a ton of bricks. And then actually, I finished the first season and then I rewatched the first season right before season two came out, and that time I was keeping copious notes, um, but so yeah. So I guess, starting off, for you, what's, what's the biggest element that really hits you? Obviously, we could go into many, many details, and some of those we'll probably touch on today. But, but, just like I'm curious, what from you know, from the overview perspective, what, what hit you the most?
Speaker 2:you know, from the overview perspective, what, what hit you the most.
Speaker 2:You know, and, and it's right, there are like so many nuances that I feel like really speak to the Scientology experience.
Speaker 2:But I think the one main reoccurring thing was and you see it also in all these different parts it's like the overarching aspect of like, especially on like from the people, from Lumen management, this aspect of total, certain control over anyone and entitlement to that control, like and in how mr milchak, like he had his role and he had all his, you know, his, his mannerisms in check.
Speaker 2:He had all his, you know uh, you know you'd think they'd be in the back doing chinese school before uh it opened, you know he, all of his, uh mannerisms, he had his, his trs in, so to speak. You know, couldn't, couldn't uh change his, uh couldn't react in certain ways, but even people above him and this disconnect from this higher authority that was like I was, I felt it, like it just like brought me back to all of this, like this feeling of, you know, unquestioning loyalty to this, or even if you, you know, weren't unquestioning, you knew you couldn't ask certain questions, like there was this total separation between this entitled power and the day-to-day average person. Let's say who was just doing their job.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's hard to explain. You know, like you couldn't even know what they were doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you see parallels? I'm curious because you know obviously, like, for example, there's so many great books on cults and what happens when you join a cult and all that. That really, to me, helps people outside of that experience understand how that can happen to normal people. But the any versus the outie, to me, the parallel of you know your pre-cult personality versus cult personality, did that that part hit you as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, and especially hearing uh Mark S, you know it'd be like the work is mysterious and important, like that concept of of importance and and how it never, it never really translates to the Audi.
Speaker 2:But even in small things, when he was confronting the protesters, uh, outside of, uh, you know, in the town square and and he was challenging them in this sort of vague, sort of broad way where you you couldn't really uh because they know that lumen is bad and and, objectively, if you have any kind of like uh, understanding of you know, uh, you know the difference between like what is and is not technically slavery, you would, you would question this, this, the severance procedure, you would have major moral problems with it because there are a lot of moral problems with it.
Speaker 2:But, like, like, the way he would challenge them reminded me of you know, the way I would have to justify. You know, you get this kind of brazen in these small moments, these brazen moments where you could, you know, fight for the cause in your own small way. But it was never like tackling specifics, it was never diving into specifics. Even, um, he was on the date with that one girl and she and you could tell he was just like depleted. Obviously he had his own baggage, but you know he keeps getting asked the same questions and he sort of like prepared himself to, kind of like you know, kind of reminded me like I would never tell people so easily that I was a Scientologist because I knew all the all the constant sort of repetitive questions that I'd have to answer. And it is really draining because, like you justify it enough to yourself, but you know you can only do it so far.
Speaker 2:I mean, he did get really drunk and that was probably what you know, gave him the courage to challenge those people, but um, uh, but it was really like you know who you are on post and everything else is kind of uh, filling the time, the, the audi. So, as it were, sort of has to deal with all that emotional overflow from the innies, suppressing everything. I mean in this. It's like a. There are differences obviously, like the sci-fi aspect of like a piece of technology actually severing your brain, um, right, or you know, but um, and I have my own problems with that concept. But again it feeds into how unworkable it is as a technology because you know it's a, it's a tv show right but yeah, yeah, I just I I just.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's. I feel like it's, it was very relatable. I definitely there were moments where I very much related to Mark a lot.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, no, absolutely. And yes, talking about that protest scene, you're right. It reminded me too of, you know, our scripted responses to any questions about Scientology. That never allowed. It was never an actual conversation, right? It's not like oh well, let me you know, I ask you a question and you think about it and ponder your thoughts on something and respond appropriately in that moment. However that might be, it was never like that in scientology. It was always scripted.
Speaker 2:100 well, I'm allowed to leave, like, oh, no one's putting chains on my arms, you know, no, but it's like that's not really the issue. You know there are multiple facets and and that just also speaks to you know, different people have different understandings of the concept of control and uh, you know, uh, even the way people in his life you know tip, tap, tiptoed around, uh, this sensitive topic of having, you know, been severed, it was just like very, you know, I could tell a lot of the times people would tiptoe around me and, um, I mean, I'm a totally different person than I was back then. But again, this show just really, episode after episode, was just beating the hell out of me.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you, yes, yeah, no same, same for me, and that's why my husband, he watched the first season but, as I was telling you, right when we started, he was like, oh, you should absolutely talk to to Ian, because he's you've you've obviously watched both seasons and for Mark it was almost too triggering, like you know. Obviously we, we both have full time day jobs and you know when you get home at night you don't necessarily want to spend an hour revisiting dark times.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and he had a very stressful job, so that makes sense a lot more. It strays more into the abstract nature of lumen itself as opposed to the uh, especially because, like you, you know they, they come back and suddenly, you know, there's been this whole revolution of you know's rights and the little video with Keanu Reeves playing Lumen from from all, like the, the super, you know, like this is something I feel like I could like more deeply relate to and it was more like, you know, goat sacrifices and the more like um, uh, let's say, ritualistic differences between lumen and gear and all that. And scientology, which has very few, I'd say most of the rituals are very bureaucratic and very um, person to person. It's very like internal, whereas lumen has all these like actual, like the waffle party, like all these bizarre um, uh, I don't really know, like um, you know, with the dancers and everything they had there were.
Speaker 2:There were different it's. They're different enough to where the second season was a bit lighter for me still yeah uh, I mean I I honestly with the second season I was just every episode I was like, okay, so they're just going to build suspense forever there. I I was like I really wanted to see something happen and there was like a whole episode. I think it was the episode where, um, uh, what's her name?
Speaker 2:it's been a few weeks now uh heli heli uh, no, the the boss, the the uh, oh, yes, white hair miss coble, miss coble, yeah, like, there we go she and she went on her whole little side quest and then you find out that she actually designed this technology, which wasn't really evident at all.
Speaker 2:honestly, kind of um, I mean, if anything, I feel like that spoke more to like how bizarre some people end up from being like born into a system like this, where your head is filled with all these different things and that is nurtured in a closed environment, and and kind of how you end up and yeah, it's, it's 100 percent parallels to the cadet organization Language, the language, the structure, the, everything.
Speaker 1:Like you said, in that closed system they don't want. You know, like in Scientology, criticism or critical thinking is completely frowned upon. So when you imprint that from a very young age, it's so, so destructive. But I did want to comment, though, back to the ritualistic part. To me, like I look at it and go obviously now in retrospect, even Scientology events are their own strange form of ritual that to an outsider they would you know. Go. What is this? What am I experiencing? Like the standing ovations and the this and the that, like every hip, hip hooray.
Speaker 1:Yes, any person in that audience knows what's expected of them. I'm talking about at a Scientology event at any given moment, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah, and it's especially, uh, I mean like idealization of like animals in relation to human, like it was very, um, I mean, it would have made scientology a hell of a lot more interesting, to be honest, but and it was just it. It's sort of and that's why the first season really felt more personal, because it's just like cold, psychologically brutal, like muted environment, you know right you spend all your time in these buildings that are like glorified and you're just well.
Speaker 2:it's, you know, the the magic kind of wears off after like six months of being in this building all day, every day, and it's like and that was exemplified in that there's just like these white hallways, sort of like a liminal space With no real idea of what they were even doing either.
Speaker 1:No exactly Like you said doing important and mysterious work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's work that you never, that you put so much effort, there's so much effort and focus on making sure that you meet quotas and meet these targets, and there's so much hostile pressure sometimes violent pressure that you're doing this thing that you never really see the effect of in the world, but you're guaranteed that it's good work the world, but you're guaranteed that it's good work. You know, um, uh yeah, letter writing, for example, a very repetitive and mostly folly exercise that, um, a lot of people like letter writing. I found it to be soul draining because I'm just, I felt like I was just wasting paper because I never got letters back and, um, but you couldn't do the same letter twice, you couldn't standardize a greeting, you couldn't do anything. It had to be unique each one and this favoritism based on who is more willing to accept these kinds of environments. I found it funny.
Speaker 2:The Lumen building felt a lot like Flag in a way. I don't think you or Mark have been inside the new Flag building when you're in there, like the amount of magnetic locks and stretching hallways with endless doors and these big displays of of of atrium. When you first walk in you can go back toward. You know there's all the oh, these are the 11 000 churches and missions on this big gilded map. And, uh, you know, you go through, you go. You can either go to the l? Run hubbard museum or the c? Org museum they call it. It's really l? Run hubbard museum, it says the c? Org museum and it's just has everything about elron hubbard. I mean, you can tie everything in scientology back to glorifying elron hubbard, but, um, you know right uh, it reminded me of this key.
Speaker 2:Like they had his, they had his suit.
Speaker 2:Uh, from the apollo yes, and, and you know, in this big glass case that's like argon gas sealed for preservation. And I mean they might as well have had like a wax statue of of L Ron Hubbard with, like the the bad, the badly attached hair and um, you know, uh. Or you go into the atrium and there are these, these sculptures that represent the eight dynamics, which is like a very. It's like one of the first things you learn, but they have it in this, from like an onyx coated bronze up to like this glass little figure reaching towards the sky. This very uh.
Speaker 2:It's the only place where it feels like Scientology is bigger than this day-to-day sort of bureaucratic, stressful, target meeting situation. But when you're in the Sea Org or a staff member or you know you don't spend a lot of time down there and you aren't. You know the encouragement like when you're at flag and you're there for training, uh, it is uh brutal and the uh. There are two there are.
Speaker 2:One thing that I reminded me of especially was now there's like a public hco hubbard communications office. You know where all the ethics, ethics particles, ethics, people, the, the problem people are handled, uh, and there's a public room for that, which is like a little waiting room and then it goes into this back little you know white room where you can listen to your history of man or state of man lectures for the 15th time and, uh, do your clay demos with clay that's hard as rocks so you're hurting your hands and um, but then there's the staff hco space and that is through a all the doors are like 200 pounds and they it's like there's these, this, they, they open this door and it's this hallway.
Speaker 2:That's got to be at least like like 600 feet and there's just doors and the ceilings are are are super high, so it's like all these doors down and you just uh, and that's where you would get taken if you uh, if you were a staff member or a seer member and you were being bad, and then you'd have, you know, a senior scream at you behind this soundproof uh door, in this like lifeless room. Um, it was just very.
Speaker 1:With cameras, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, Every room had cameras and it's funny, at flag they have. Uh, I'm sure they did this in other places, but they have a picture of LRH in every room and right at the bottom there's a silver strip that's like a two way mirror where they, they put the camera behind. So he's always watching. Uh, and it's, and it's very that that's, that's new.
Speaker 1:When we when we got out in 2005 that that whole building was under planning. So like I remember hearing about that the eight dynamics presentation thing. But but yeah, you're right that the to me what your description epitomizes the glossy facade versus the reality of life inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but because it's totally different, totally different lives.
Speaker 1:Yes, sorry yes, yeah, no, no, and and again. That's where it's like the the innie versus the outie, going back to severance. You know it's like the reality of life inside is absolutely never what you think. Just walking in the door at the outset. For sure Not that you or I ever had the chance to walk in the door in the first place, being born into it, but you know that's like I.
Speaker 2:I said story for another day. Yeah, yeah, the, the. There's a detail, but I did want to ask you too.
Speaker 1:Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No I was talking for a while. We'll go back and forth, you can ask me okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So back to severance. I was going to ask you. So we kind of, when we were texting about this, we kind kind of touched on, like I had commented, oh yeah, the cognitive dissonance. I'm just, I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you think a Scientologist would think watching this, because I remember bringing up well, I read 1984 when I was a teenager and I didn't, you know, obviously in retrospect I should have like newspeak, all those different elements that should have hit me like a ton of bricks. Granted, I didn't, you know, obviously in retrospect I should have like news speak, all those different elements that should have hit me like a ton of bricks. Granted, I was 13. But I'm just curious your thoughts on that piece particularly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and I, and honestly I got to imagine that there is some local Scientology outrage, you know, over this show for being. You know over this show for being. You know they have so many like definitions for things like this, like J and D or yeah, which is joking and degrading Yep.
Speaker 2:Joking and degrading or like something similar, even though L Ron Hubbard stole a lot of his methods to sort of construct what we know is Scientology. You know, a Scientologist watching this, I feel like, would feel like offended that there are things that resemble Scientology, processing or and and and I it reminds me of um, uh, my brother telling me you know who is the uh director of inspections and reports at the DC org. Uh, so he's like the, he's the, he's the boogeyman of the DC org who, basically, you know, if anyone steps out of line, he finds them. I mean, he's a pretty harmless guy, but in the scientology world it's a very you know rigid, you know structure, how they handle bad people.
Speaker 1:But uh, um, and by bad people, of course, you mean disbelievers, yeah, people who are questioning any amount of doubt.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, and it was, uh, it was um. You know, he walked out of that one movie, the julian assange movie, because oh yeah, they mentioned he um released wiki leaks.
Speaker 2:A part of his release of wiki leaks was was exposing Scientology and the whole and these other things. It was maybe 30 seconds of this two hour movie and he just stood up and walked away and that always stuck with me because I felt in my head I was like, well, I should be better than that. I should be. You know, in my head, if I believe in something, I should not be so afraid, I should not be so fragile about my, about criticisms of my beliefs. Now, that was my, that was my error. You're supposed to be fragile and you're supposed to be terrified of everything because God forbid you develop a conscience or a frame of reference for, uh, you know a conversation because you're not allowed to discuss with scientology, with critics, which is wild to me. Every time I think about that.
Speaker 2:I was watching actually, uh, one of the uh I forget what it was the first or the second um severance episode you did with Mark and uh when he said um, the biggest lie, the biggest contradiction, is the communication release. Uh, you know this grand step in Scientology where you're freely able to to, to communicate with anyone and everything about any topic, but that's a complete lie, a whole, 100% of a lie, because there are several courses that detail exactly who you cannot speak to, what topics you must avoid and are prohibited from speaking to. Topics you must avoid and are prohibited from speaking to and like, and there are all these lists of punishments for for doing so. I just found it like so you know. So, watching this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, you reminded me of the can we ever be friends lecture, which, of course, you know that's Hubbard. That's the whole talk about exactly what you're saying. Like there, if, if you want to maintain outside relations, it all has to be carefully structured so as to not freely communicate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean cause, if you, if you get this idea that Scientology is not the only and most workable way to live your life, which there are many policies that describe why it should be, which you'd think it just being workable would speak for itself. But that's critical thinking. That's too close to realistic. You know, god forbid. You have an inkling that, uh, life outside of Scientology is, is possible because that alone is is like suppressive, because somehow you're inhibiting someone from you know, even in the PTSSP course, where you know this is like the tome of how to handle the suppressives, the SPs, it highlights that preventing a person from receiving or delivering standard Scientology is a suppressive act. That also applies to you. That also applies to you delivering or receiving Scientology. So you know you committed this suppressive act against Scientology by removing yourself. It is like this total they have such entitled, so entitled to everything and everyone around them, and obviously that's baked into this. You know ideology. So anyone questioning anything, anyone living good elsewhere, is a threat to that concept.
Speaker 1:Right, not, and, by the way, that's not so dissimilar in my mind to the reactions when that when the topic of reintegration comes up in severance.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, reintegration does not exist. It does not exist Right.
Speaker 2:And, to that point, the small details that really hit me and that I feel like would hit other Scientologists as well and really make them feel attacked, that they're seen outside, from outside this personal relationship, that they're seen outside, you know from outside this personal relationship that they would have with scientology. Things like when mark um does something incorrectly and you see him sitting in a chair in the hallway reading here's policies or reading the word of cure, and they're laid out very similar to lrh policies or hcob's, and that alone that was like oh, oh god, my mom's gonna hate this. I mean, it's, it's very easy to set off my parents, but like mine too, it it's, it would be. I feel both so gripping. But so to them insulting that like, which is only mine, and and and and and and couldn't be for anybody else, and and you know like would be, would be enough to get them off, which is crazy.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like both my, I feel like my brother would love the show. I feel like my, uh, my parents would love the show. I mean, I don't really have a great. They don't really like me very much these days. But you know, maybe watch the show, maybe prove me wrong. Watch the show, see how you know, with a stone face, watch it with your TRS in and I don't know, I think it's. I think it's silly to be afraid of watching a TV show, right? I?
Speaker 1:completely agree. I couldn't agree more. But yeah, the compartmentalization that happens in the brain of a Scientologist is I think it's. It is fragile, like you're saying, because all it would take is for any person who's a firm believer just to ask any simple question, any number of questions, Right, and if they actually ask themselves that question? Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that fear it's like. Why are you afraid? I thought you were OT. What is this fear? Who is this fear directed to? Is it the SPs inflicting fear upon you? Who's feeling the fear Is it? You know you could turn that into an auditing question. You know who feels your fear.
Speaker 1:Who's asking? The question why are you feeling fear at a simple act of just asking a question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm wondering, who exactly are you afraid of? Are you afraid of me for prosing something that you happen to see, you know, walking by? Or are you afraid that what I've said makes gives the the remote possibility that Scientology of David Miscavige of this, of this hyper demanding, like, uh, entitled authority structure that you've, you know, you've given your you know, given your life to, essentially?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 2:You know you've sold yourself for this sort of uh in group and um it. It is wild. I mean the mean the uh, everything about this show, like the break room uh, which I know you talked with mark about, I I found it very um, it was a reduction for sure. I mean they couldn't do it one-to-one. The reduction of the uh of, like the intricacies I guess of of auditing, but it's the same premise. It is like a um a repetitive sort of hypnotic conditioning yeah, and in this way, the um, the emotional breakdown of yeah like the whole remorse, regret.
Speaker 1:You're a bad person internalizing everything, all of that yes, falling asleep, oh my gosh, the falling asleep.
Speaker 2:It's funny a lot of people. I'm new in scientology and there was always this um emphasis on hypnotism, bad, hypnotism, bad. You know, don't learn about hypnotism and learning about hypnotism. A lot of these similar symptoms from hypnotism occur in Scientology auditing and you know you, you know on in my own, you know research and observation of the comparison between the two is there's not a big, there's not a large comparison. The thing is like if you sit someone down in a confined space, finds space and with with you in between the person and the door, which already is a psychological manipulation tactic right which and, by the way, you mentioned that, but that is covered in in hubbard's writing that that is how you position.
Speaker 1:You position it so the person cannot leave. You're going to force them to stay there, no matter what yeah, and that's.
Speaker 2:I mean that alone, like that level of, like subconscious submission primes a person to be hypnotically receptive and you repeat things. Repetition is extremely prevalent in hypnotism. Uh, you know, uh, they get drought. I mean, he adds all this extra.
Speaker 2:Oh well, you know the blow off or boil off, and you know the thetan analytical attenuation yeah and and um, and you add all this stuff so that in the moment, you can justify this process.
Speaker 2:Honestly, you're doing a lot more work in, in a sense, than the, than the, than the pre-clear the person being audited is, in that you are thinking for them. You're doing all this processing, uh, to cover the fact that you're just like hypnotizing them over and over and over and over, and sometimes it's not as direct, and sometimes it's not always, sometimes it's simply for the purpose of, like battering someone into a more receptive state psychologically. And I think, especially with the example in the show where it's an apology, I think, especially with the example in the show where it's an apology, it is this person sitting there, unable to leave, you know, having to apologize over and over and over and over and over, and conditioned to, in a sense, feel sorry and to feel shame for this thing, yeah, and to use the words given to them to apologize, which ties back to the kind of a cross between ethics and Chinese school.
Speaker 1:Chinese school, obviously you're chanting the same thing over and over again. But the words are given to you Like no variations, no nothing. It has to be that exact script which is so. Again, that's one of one of you're right, that's a piece that has eerie parallels.
Speaker 2:yeah, and I feel, I feel like if I was, if I put myself in the scientologist shoes, I'd be like, oh, it's nothing like that. Oh, it's oh, well, oh, but we but we freely get like I would be like, oh, but the policies I have read, you know, I'd pull directly from what, how I'm supposed to justify it, to say, oh well, the writing says that that this isn't, this isn't, this would not work on a person. But very few Scientologists actually learn how hypnotism works at all. I mean, they refer to something like Dianetics, which, if it says anything at all of substance, I'd be surprised They'd probably come after me for that. But again, I find it very clever that they guise it in like oh, auditing makes you less susceptible to hypnotism. Based on what, I wonder?
Speaker 2:makes you less?
Speaker 1:susceptible to hypnotism, based on what I wonder. Well, and you know that in his personal library Hubbard had all the psychological textbooks of like 2,000 books of other practices than Scientology.
Speaker 2:So he can read it and he can have that knowledge. But not a Scientologist? Yeah, but Scientology auditing is definitely not hypnosis. Even though he had to learn all of these things about psychology, hypnosis, control, etc. To make Scientology, it has nothing to do with any of these things, with any of these things, strictly on the basis that he somehow on his own was able to lift, go exterior and visit all these planets and pull from all this past, blah, blah, blah. And that's the reason that you should just not question.
Speaker 2:Yes, I feel like that is the reason I feel like, and I feel like it's just so thin, even though, like Lumen is like this structured company, I wonder. My biggest question is what do they make? What are their? What are they export? What do they do? Uh like, cause it's it, it's the. It's similar in the sense that it's under the guise of being a company or a corporation of sorts, and obviously the members idealize the founder in where Scientology is sort of the opposite, where it's pitched as a religion but operates mostly as a company happened because of the IRS exemption in 1993.
Speaker 1:Prior to that, in my, in my you know, from birth until 1993, it 100% didn't have that religious religious banner. It wasn't, you know. I can remember when I was seven, when my my mother told me what to tell people that Scientology is. It was a you know and it's an it's a way to help yourself get better.
Speaker 2:Yeah self-help.
Speaker 1:Exactly that was the script, and then it became an applied religious philosophy later as the new script.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems more of like an inclusive, like all-in-one business, the. The religious aspect really seemed very thin, very fake, like my parents weren't religious. They, they they kind of just said it's the word religious did a lot of heavy lifting and what they did, because we didn't pray, we didn't have any kind of. There was no spiritual empathy or spiritual nature to their relationship with Scientology. It was always production equals morale and production with getting audited or doing auditing equals morale in life and able to handle things. So it was always just extremely transactional, mostly to the benefit of Scientology. Because you know, like, are you telling me? Like two, like now my brother recently went ot8 and um, so now there's three ot8s in the family and somehow they're still as a, they're still just as terrified to have a conversation about the nature of science. It's just like. It seems like the more you Scientology you do, the less productive you become.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I mean you know, you know. So it was just, I was just a very the reality, like the comparisons between the control dynamics. I think for me we're just, like always, the most striking but yeah.
Speaker 1:And Mark and I talked about this piece, but I'd love your thoughts on it too. But the aspect of leaving, trying to get out, the escaping, you know from the, whether it's dylan, when he resigned, and he goes to the elevator and he thinks he's leaving and instead he goes down to the basement, even further in. Or Gemma, when she has the moment in the elevator she's trying to get out. And then you know the, the, the switch is flipped and all of a sudden she's back where she started. To me, those, those were dark parallels. What are, what were your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like the concept of having to um, I think Mark brought up the CSW comparison as well. Yes, completed staff work of having to have approval.
Speaker 2:Having to have approval to leave, because there's no special way to enter Scientology, but there are extreme specific steps that must occur for someone to safely and properly leave scientology. It's going to take a lot of work, it's. You know there's going to be pushback. You know you might get yelled at here and there, depending on how uh, how much like, how deep you are in. I feel like, and the way I've described this before. But the way that Scientology is structured and the way it has it's kind of self sealing system, like there's what you do, there's it's designed to be difficult to understand. Well, mostly because it's nonsense, like, but let's say for the, let's say for the sense it's designed to be difficult to understand. Well, mostly because it's nonsense, like, but let's say for the, let's say for the sense it's designed to be, it is difficult to understand uh on, uh, as is. But there's also uh correction, corrective technology, yes, to scoop you up when you, when it fails, to then put you back at the top, to where you do something very simple and you're validated for it, and then you skate on the top until it fails again.
Speaker 2:Um, the amount of, I think really it made me think of the amount of uh people, no matter what position at flag.
Speaker 2:I spent a lot of time in qual, the qualifications division on on the.
Speaker 2:I think it was the fifth floor where, which is of the qualifications division of flag is, by definition, supposed to be where the most standard, perfect application of scientology is delivered and is, you know, decided right. But even the, even the qual, even the qualsec, was getting like cramming. He was even the, the highest, like uh, well, I guess the highest would be the, the, the, the senior CS, but the, like, all these people who were above me were getting corrected for their lack of the ability to spot a floating needle or to not apply this technology, or I would get reprimanded for something, and then I would show them a reference and they'd be like okay, that checks out, and I'm just like so there is no consensus, there is no um, no, um and uh. You know everyone's sort of just kind of bumbling around, bumping into each other and this, this whole professionalism. I think the fact that there's such uh harsh white glove policies like cleaning policies, also does a lot of work, because did you catch?
Speaker 1:that white glove was also in severance, by the way I did I I told that to my.
Speaker 2:I was sitting with my girlfriend. I was like the white glove. You know how many times I had to do that, staying on friday nights to clean the top top of the bookshelves and, yes, I was vacuuming out the sconces and the light work. Uh, climbing these like 15 foot ladders with like a vacuum strap to me.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, how weird is it too that it is the ethics officer who comes in with the white glove.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because it's, you know, so weird. So I know many men. I probably have 200 memories of nobody's going home. Until you get a white glove pass on your spaces 200 memories of nobody's going home until you get a white glove pass on your spaces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even even when I did the, the, the competence and leadership course on the free wins, where you basically pay $1,500 to be to clean the ship, wow, They'd had white glove.
Speaker 2:That was like you were in a bunk with three other bunk beds, so like it was you and three other people in a room and they you know they would come in with the glove and they would go underneath the, the shelves and the corners behind the, the backs of the beds, like, and it was so rigorous. I mean I can see it like as a parallel between like military, um, like paramilitary. They say you can do a course where they treat you like shit and you know you, maybe you're a little. The trauma alone like perks you up and makes you a little easier to clean. It's a blah, blah, blah. But like you, you were paying. Go on a religious retreat cruise ship to scrub the engine room and I uh, they really wanted me to join the Sea Org there.
Speaker 1:And wait. So how old were you when you did this?
Speaker 2:Uh, I think I was 17, 17.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness Doing that. Yeah, I went there with my friend.
Speaker 2:Uh, I went there with a friend of mine, tyler, and I remember he was like we were in the at the end. Uh, there was a couple of days before the. We were waiting, like the whole class has to graduate at the same time, so like one guy was falling behind on his coursework. So we had a couple of days, like one or two days, uh, in Aruba. We never left port, by the way. Uh, we just stayed on the port and just clean this ship for two weeks. Um, uh, and we were sitting in the, uh, in the pool Cause finally, we were able to use all these facilities.
Speaker 2:Um, tyler's like man, you know, being at Aruba is cool, but like once he starts talking about, like his past lives, being in space, like that was bullshit, right. So I was so deep into it. I was like you know, like, uh, well, like you don't know the the true you, you know you weren't born into it, so maybe there's some things that'll seem a little off. I was just, I think it's like man, he, he was ahead of the curve, he was definitely um, it's just crazy things, you know.
Speaker 2:I honestly, in a way, mr milchick really grew on me as a character oh, me too, me too like, and it's so easy to hate him when you're when you don't really know what that kind of life is like. But you know he was. He gave me this like like visceral, like spine chilling fear. You know, like your butt cheeks clench when he enters the screen at first Cause he reminds you of every like overbearing, like missionary or or or Sea Org member, always perfectly shirt, perfectly pressed, always on time, always like like dealing with all this shit, but always taking his orders from somewhere else. He's like kind of an unquestioning authority. And then there was the gifts that he received in the form of the paintings.
Speaker 1:Oh yes.
Speaker 2:Of here and I saw you see it on his face. You see this like and I'm, for the record, not a black man, so I don't want to speak.
Speaker 2:For, just in case you know, people were curious, I don't want to speak for that, but seeing, even just from observation, like his conflict and the like, they literally took these paintings of kier and put blackface on them and were like here this is, this is a special treat for you, where we've, you know, turned your uh identity into a caricature and you can see it's like he is devoted to this thing. That just would respect a speck of dirt more than him.
Speaker 2:And like he's he, he, he realizes this and you can see it. And he like looks at natalie, who's like the speaker, for yeah, you know, she's like, she's like an exact.
Speaker 1:Uh, she's like a tunnel she doesn't even have her own which, yeah, there's parallels and I've met people.
Speaker 2:I've I've met people like her. Sadly, I mean less uh, and I do have something to say about her. But, um, you know you can see this like conflict and and obviously we know, no matter how much he gains the courage to stand up for himself, it won't improve his position in the organization. If anything, it will make the organization defensive against him but eventually leave him him out like that, like he's he's, he's sooner going to be kicked out because it's an inherently very racist. You know, you have this like ghostly white founder who, uh, idealizes these like, uh, colonial sort of aesthetics and and they, they treat him like he's a piece of property and it's, it was just so. But like seeing that conflict there, I was like I couldn't help but feel for him and like, from there moving on, and he had his, he had, he had his moments. You know he takes these breaks to enjoy the good parts and at the end, with the but I feel like the conflict is what motivates a lot of his anger and that, yes, for sure I know my absolute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my absolute favorite moment was when he snapped on the use of the words His famous devour feculence. It was the best.
Speaker 2:And especially they were criticizing him for being well-spoken, which speaks to also the naive sort of barbaric mentality of the higher-ups.
Speaker 2:Speaking down to this clearly well-spoken black man, who does his job to a T unquestioningly shows up, shows up, he's at like when he set down the paper in front of devon and just ran out the room like, yes, every, every uh staff member and seer member knows like there have been moments where you had to kind of like you know, you're like if I was um auditing someone uh thursday before two and I had to end the session and it's maybe 115 and I get them to the examiner. And then I'm like, thanks, yeah, I'll see you later. And I just have to race upstairs to do the folder work and all this stuff just to get the statistics like. And they still, even then, like had no respect for him but him standing up for himself.
Speaker 3:I was like, yeah, Because I want him to leave.
Speaker 2:I want him to get out, I want him to have his own life, and it's been really interesting seeing people hate him Because I was like they don't know, they don't understand.
Speaker 1:No, they don't know.
Speaker 2:They haven't walked in his shoes. No, they don't understand, they don't know, they haven't walked in his shoes. No, and even even natalie, who is like uh on on her face, an imposing figure, and I've known people exactly like her who have this sort of like you know smile on their face when they're delivering, like they're ignoring you entirely, they're just seeing through you.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And when she's receiving, she's like the founders are speaking, and you can like see this, like the suppressed dread and fear on her face, and her eyes almost water up. I mean, it was just like she's a fantastic actress 100% and like, like, I mean mean just so many things about this show. I, I was just like I was like writing things down. I was like man, I gotta make a video about this. But I was like yes, um, there were.
Speaker 2:There's certain things, I think I also um, maybe maybe uh associated that weren't maybe intended, you know, like the wellness room.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Which, like I thought of as as sort of like mental and emotional rewards for loyalty. You know telling when something, someone, something like that they're willing to accept as truth that validates their endless work, or upstat rewards, so to speak. These aren't actual rewards, but because your activities are so restricted and because your ability to, ability to like kind of roam freely and live a normal life is so like, uh, maintained and restricted, you're allowed to, you know you're, you're let out into the yard, so to speak to run around, yeah, no that, yeah, that capacity to even just mentally have a moment to breathe.
Speaker 1:I mean, you remind me of how many times Mark and I have joked about oh good thing we escaped when we did, because they were adding a Starbucks down the road. And if we would have been able to sneak to Starbucks, we might've lasted. You know, it might've just kept that equilibrium as whacked out as it was. It might've just kept it in check just a little bit longer.
Speaker 2:So thank goodness we got out before that happened yeah, and I don't want to give them any ideas because they won't follow them.
Speaker 2:But right because they they involve uh, money going to the well-being of the members and not david miscavige, but uh, bread and circuses is like a very common like concept of of rewarding people who like, if, if you have like, like like, uh, you know, roman dictators, roman emperors would just like let people have the Colosseum and they would give people bread, they would give them something to kind of distract them and let them kind of vent their emotional repression from having otherwise terrible lives. And the more you take away from people, the more agitated they're going to feel. I mean, you know, scientology would have been, I mean should, would, it could have. Uh, you can't really undo all of that without a massive restructuring and david miscavige in prison. But I think they rob themselves of so much credibility because of their unwillingness to not be entitled to everything that they want.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And Lumen, does you know? I mean, they're synonymous organizations really Like. The only difference is like Lumen seems to be much better with their money.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And you know they're willing to do these small things to control, because everything's an experiment Now and I'd honestly say I'd respect the founders there because they were actually doing experiments. I mean, I don't respect in this universe, obviously they're very bad people, but I respect them more than LRH, because LRH at least was like I've done all the research. It's in this book where I ramble for 300 pages. I won't actually show you any tests, any logs, uh, any papers, anything but just trust me, I did all the work and like it's trying to evolve. But scientology is like this perfect, uh ecosystem where absolutes are unattainable but also the e -meter is perfect and also the tech is perfect Like yeah, and and truly from.
Speaker 1:from the thousands of Hubbard documents that I went through, the only research he did was I know what's wrong with this person it is. He needs to do the purification rundown. Prove that that's. You know, that was the reality. Or um, I remember one time Shelly Miscavige telling me that the way the asthma allergy rundown was developed was because there was scent in Hubbard's shirt and he figured out that he that's what it was and that that's the only research. Him saying this is what's wrong. Fix it by doing X, y and Z. No, no medical research. No, nothing.
Speaker 2:It's funny that. It's funny that you bring that up. The asthma and allergy rundown is almost never recommended these days right. Because if an auditor does it it's because it's Thursday before two and he can't finish the course he's on and the asthma and allergy rundown course can be done in a little under like like three to four, maybe six hours at max if you're slow, but like you get there, Meaning to train to complete the course, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to train somebody to do the course to deliver the procedure, and I was one of those people and what's funny is the one time I ever delivered it on someone back at back in Atlanta. And what's funny is the one time I ever delivered it on someone back at back in Atlanta. And I talk about this because it's so funny and I had to document it because I was still in Scientology when I found this, but I did it on this guy and he's like oh wow, no, that's, that's crazy, at least mind blowing wins. Less than a month later, he's posting on Facebook. Anyone have any great natural remedies for allergies?
Speaker 1:Allergies are really flaring up and I'm like and, of course, for anyone watching the end phenomena of the allergy asthma rundown is that you no longer have allergies and asthma right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's supposed to be completely gone, completely handled. Everything was checked out, totally standard, and so I had to screenshot this man's.
Speaker 2:Facebook post and put it in his folder, and I ended up doing a bunch of auditing on him later and I'm sure he's still getting the same auditing, because some people just endlessly same auditing. Because some people just endlessly, endlessly get cs'd for more and more like like they get um, more technical estimates where the cs will be like well, actually, I think you haven't really said what we want you to say, so we're just going to put you in here and people use it as like therapy, but it's excruciatingly expensive, right, so it's. It never really has the same effect because you're kind of just leading the people to their own, you know, their own solutions instead of actually providing them like evidence-based help.
Speaker 2:Right, that's funny, you mentioned you mentioned also uh uh, shelly miscavige, because I can't say that there's like a direct parallel, especially in the relationship that they had, but gemma was giving very much shelllly Miscavige vibes.
Speaker 2:Obviously, I don't think, I think it's more so like the concept of being able to just disappear someone and control the story Like she died. Oh, don't ask about her at all, but actually she's in the basement and she's doing things you know know where. No one can know her real name, no one can speak to her, no one can. Um, you know she's doing some mysterious, she's being like tested on.
Speaker 1:Obviously this is in lumen interesting, yeah, no I don't even know I'm I'm really glad you brought that up because I had not thought about the Gemma situation in that context. But you're right, and even the mind numbing of like Shelly was a very high profile executive Everybody. She was at every meeting David Miscavige ever had, so the to have her just vanish and even Right. And even the control mechanism of you will not ask about Shelley.
Speaker 2:It's just crazy to erase people and to control the thoughts of these people which even in the context of, like the tech, it's supposed to sort of have people suppress themselves. But he's gone out of his way to use this technology, the writings of hubbard etc. To kind of accomplish his own side goals. And I mean every story I've heard about from everyone who's met this man said he was very violent. And I think violence, especially physical violence, can create a stronger resistance to it, ricochets down the chain of command. You know the people who are being hit by him are going to be more severe on the people beneath them and those people are going to feel that severity and it's going to trickle down. It's not going to necessarily trickle down in violence because the more people who are hurt like if there's just one guy at the top who's committing the most violence, you know it's and controlling the narrative, he's not beating the lawyers.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:He's not beating random staff members in class five orgs the normal churches you'd see on the street.
Speaker 1:Right, he's only doing it in an environment where he has complete control and he has the security and the isolation and the lack of supervision or lack of government involvement or oversight or anything to get away with it yeah, and that, that, that was uh, you know, and when you're thinking about in season two, uh, what was his name?
Speaker 2:the big guy, the real big guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beard, I can't like drummond or something, mr drummond yeah yeah, mr drummond, like when he's just like looking at mark and being disrespected, he just he just pops him right in the face and then just starts beating the shit out of him like he. He is in a uh a building where, where he has no safety nets, he has no um. You know, there's such a a, a, a broad sort of power stacked against him that he could get his ass kicked and no one would. It seems like they could just kill anyone they want and get away with it as as, so long as there are no cameras, there are no microphones, you know, um and more uh, obviously they say there are no microphones and they say there are no cameras, but suddenly they have photo, they have videos, uh, of everything, in every place and everything, all these conversations, all these conversations, you know, and in scientology, like no one is allowed to record, except for scientology, right, every.
Speaker 2:You know you leave your phone at the door or you uh has to be turned off, or you know, if you record anything, especially at flag, let me tell you. But there's a camera in every room, every auditing room. So, um, at flag there's a. There are these auditing rooms. Where they're, they're in different sections. There is a vip auditing section, which I think is hilarious because there are literal policies against that vip treatment.
Speaker 2:But policy doesn't really matter anymore in scientology, no no, for sure so like, uh, there are these rooms and on this it there's one super long hallway that has like 200 auditing rooms in it. It's like an l and with that within that l there's like 200 rooms and and every single one has a camera and it also has a cable that you can connect the e-meter to. So in the internship, which is where, once you've done all the courses on how to audit someone, you actually are given people to audit and you're kind of watched by the organization.
Speaker 2:There's this thing in the in the back of the room, which is like setups of e-meters and screens where you can just you have certain rooms that are allocated to you on the computer and you can watch the session, and these are including including the the live reaction of the e-meter on from that station?
Speaker 2:Yeah, which on an academic level. This would make sense if it was a fake session, but these are real people and these are real uh, let's say uh, admissions. These are real secrets that they're telling. A lot of these people do not finish the internship. These are real secrets that they're telling A lot of these people do not finish the internship. So when you're in there, it's kind of implied like every secret you tell, everything you say is um is going to be heard and it's. And when everybody goes downstairs into the, the mess hall at at dinnertime, they're going to talk about it, yeah, and it's they they're gonna talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's, they're gonna talk about you, um, you know, there's just such a disconnect between I I I remember hearing recently watching one of your uh, uh, one of your streams with mark and um, he brought up a good point that was like you're not, you don't have tv in the seo org and you don't, you're not watching shows, you're not reading romance novels, so all the drama that you get is just gossip and just like I know from people's private auditing sessions.
Speaker 2:It's insane, yeah yeah, the amount of people who are like reading through pc folders and they're just like, oh right, this, right here, this circle in red, or sometimes it's just like oh well, there's another, you know, whatever he's doing this, I mean some of the things that I've learned, a lot of things I've heard, I, I, I cannot repeat because they are very uh, uh, we could not post this video, yeah, but uh, it's, it's very, it just kind of all kind of hits you at once, especially watching, like you know, you asked, you asked you know about the leaving process yeah
Speaker 2:there is no, there is no guarantee of people who leave like being able to easily. And when there's this like, let's say, you have to leave for some urgent reason, especially the seahorker, especially staff I mean sea orc is like the hardest to leave and then staff is, you know, a little less hard, and then public can basically come and go as they please. They'll get like a slap on the wrist or some reprimands, depending on what cycles they're in the middle of. But yeah, uh, if you there, if there's any urgency, it's the punishment for you. Needing to leave faster is like increased, like it's we have to keep you for longer because, like, why do you need to leave so bad? Well, like, well, you have to cancel these things.
Speaker 2:You know a friend, a friend, a co, a guy I was on staff with, um, his grandma was was dying and she was in the hospital and he, um, uh, guy named daniel burns and he, he was like just trying to see us up. He's like I just, really, he wasn't even leaving staff, he just wanted to go see his, his dying grandma and she's like, well, she's been in the hot, the, so, the, the deputy, uh, the deputy executive director, a guy named Dexter Manuel was like well, she's been in the hospital before. It's like maybe this is okay, maybe we'll just finish up your PC. I was there, I had a free schedule. I could have taken her, taken this PC free schedule. I could have taken her taking this, taking this pc, um uh.
Speaker 3:But instead they made him wait a couple days and she did die.
Speaker 2:He was still well, he was still there and so then he was able to go to the funeral. Then it was like oh my gosh take a week, you know, go to the funeral and it's like these things are the things that stuck with me, because it's, it's intentional infliction of mental and emotional torture to an individual to do that?
Speaker 2:oh, I mean it's, and it it just makes this um and it makes things like severance so important, I think, as like a, a like something to communicate to people in a maybe more exaggerated way, right, I mean, if you really showed Scientology's back end from like real experiences, it would be tremendously more like severe. Yeah, but you know, to show people examples of of certain ways that can invoke the same emotions, I think is really important and, uh, you know, like everyone should watch this show.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, absolutely Awesome. Well, we will wrap up for today, ian. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. That was awesome. And yes, definitely I'm going to get you on with marks, because we would have a lot of fun conversations, for sure, and of course, I will link to your channel and whatever other links you'd like me to include with this video. And yes, we'll talk again soon. Maybe we'll do a watch party for season three. That'd be great. Well, we'll talk again soon.
Speaker 2:Maybe we'll do a watch party for season three? That'd be great. Well, thank you for having me. I I uh love chatting with you, as always, and uh, yeah, till next time yes, and thank you for everything that you do.
Speaker 1:We appreciate you appreciate you too.
Speaker 3:thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Xenu Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, kindle and audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.
