Shipboard Childhoods And Buried Memories - Scientology Secrets #24

A ship. A hotel turned school. A childhood taught to keep secrets. Pamela Nicole Williams joins us to trace a rare, ground-level history of Scientology—from her parents’ early work around Hubbard in D.C. and training at St. Hill to life aboard the Royal Scotman before the Sea Org took full shape. Her memoir, Clearly Lies Are True, threads vivid scenes with careful research to show how a movement’s promises filtered into family routines, language, and choices that shaped a child’s sense of safety.

We explore the practices that defined those years: touch assists, TRs, personality tests, and the sales script built around “ruins.” Pamela explains how teens get “voluntold” into service, why labels like suppressive person keep people in line, and how sincere belief can coexist with control and abuse. She brings us into the moment repressed memories resurfaced—what it means to question your own mind, how secrecy trained in a high-control group amplifies silence, and why naming sexual abuse is both terrifying and liberating. Along the way, we connect personal timelines to Scientology milestones: early clears, St. Hill culture, the Royal Scotman’s shortages, and the pivot to the Sea Org.

This is also a story about repair. Pamela shares how writing became a tool for healing, how she told her adult daughters the truth to break generational silence, and why forgiveness—without forgetting—was the only way out of lifelong anger. We talk practical support too: she donates a portion of book proceeds to the Aftermath Foundation to help people who leave Scientology rebuild with housing, jobs, and community. If you care about cult recovery, childhood trauma, or the mechanics of indoctrination, you’ll find hard truths, clear language, and real hope here.

Listen, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show. Subscribe for more survivor stories, deep dives into high-control groups, and tools for healing and rebuilding.

Chapters

• 0:26 Meet Pamela And The Memoir
• 3:39 Early Family Ties To Hubbard
• 6:10 What “Clearly Lies Are True” Means
• 9:00 Childhood Realizations And St. Hill
• 11:29 Life Aboard The Royal Scotman
• 18:00 Assists, TRs, And Teen Training
• 22:57 Celebrity Centre And Recruitment Pressure
• 29:00 Belief, Control, And Staying In
• 36:45 Parenting, Anger, And Generational Trauma
• 43:52 Secrets, Memory, And Naming Abuse
• 47:00 Publishing, Purpose, And Aftermath
• 52:00 Reader Reactions And Public Perception
• 55:00 Hope, Labels, And Calling It A Cult
• 1:00:00 What’s Next And How To Support

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:26

Hello and welcome back to the channel. Blown for good, Scientology Exposed. I'm your host for today, Claire Headley. And uh this is another episode of Scientology Stories, in which I will be interviewing author Pamela Nicole Williams, um, who recently released Clearly Lies Are True. Let me bring Pamela on and make sure I got that right. Welcome, Pamela. Hi, Claire.

SPEAKER_03: 0:52

So great to be here. Thank you. You got it all right. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 0:55

Perfect. All right. And so so grateful to have this opportunity to meet you and talk with you. Um, I I really appreciate that you shared your book with me um ahead of your release. Um, and so I I read the first half and then I listened to your audible book for the second half. Um, you did a really good job on the Audible book, by the way.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20

Yes, absolutely. So why don't we start with um for our viewers today who may not know who you are and your and your story, can you give me an overview of um your ex your uh what led you to writing this book?

SPEAKER_03: 1:37

What led me to writing it? Okay. Oh gosh, it was such a long journey, but in a nutshell, um I had a traumatic event happen about 15 years ago that activated um some memories. And so my book is about my Scientology experiences that I had kind of buried. I had, you know, glimmers of them and I shut the door on Scientology and lived my life. And then I had some repressed memories of sexual abuse that started to pop up. And so that was the impetus for writing. I started journaling, I started just trying to get it out. I didn't know what to do with all of it. Um, and it was pretty scary. And I, as I wrote, I realized that I had a Scientology chronology that I really had never thought about in the big picture in the history of Scientology. You know, I'd really shut the door on that once um I left as a teenager and moved on and really never wanted to revisit that part of my life at all.

SPEAKER_04: 2:37

Which I will say is not an unusual reaction to um childhood experiences in Scientology. Um, in my case, I was you know born and raised in Scientology. My mom was in the C organization starting when I was four years old. And I never spoke with my husband about any of the he didn't even know I was in the cadet organization until after we escaped.

SPEAKER_03: 3:04

Yeah. So you within the ranks of Scientology, you didn't talk about it. Say that again. I said, even within the ranks of Scientology, you didn't talk about it.

SPEAKER_04: 3:13

No, even more so. Like it's best not just to not say anything. If you have nothing, Mark always jokes that his mom would tell him, if you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all. Uh that's very much true for anyone who you know had childhood experiences in Scientology. But what was fascinating to me about your story, and I'd love for you to give your perspective on this, but your parents got into Scientology before you were born, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 3:41

Correct. So my dad dabbled with um Dianetics at the Wichita Dianetics Foundation because he lived um in Kansas. And so that's where he discovered L. Ron Hubbard's um theories and beliefs. And so when he met my mom, my mom was not a Scientologist, didn't know anything about it. And so um he got her involved. And once Hubbard left and went to DC, to Washington, D.C., um, because everything fell apart at the Dianetics Foundation, um, he had financial issues. Um, my dad wanted them to follow El Ron Hubbard, and so they moved to Washington, D.C. And they worked closely with him and with Mary Sue at the very beginning of Scientology, the Hubbard Association of Scientologists, and they were active in the Congresses, and you know, I really didn't know all that either, Claire. I had to do that research when I started writing my story to kind of figure out like they didn't talk about that a little bit, but I really didn't know, you know, exactly what happened and um how involved they were. So I, my mom was pregnant um at the same time that Mary Sue was pregnant with Arthur Hubbard. So Arthur Hubbard and I are the same age, although I think she was born in June and I'm born in November.

SPEAKER_04: 4:57

Wow. So, and and again, just for context for people listening, we're talking about the very early beginning days of dianetics and Scientology, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 5:08

Correct, correct, yes. So 1957 to 1959, my parents were in Washington, D.C., um, working side by side with Elwyn Hebert and other Scientologists. And, you know, whenever I talk about it, I I liken it to like it felt grassroots, I think, at the time. But like my mom always, you know, I think she enjoyed it. You know, I never heard negatives about that period of time. And they had friends, and you know, it was um very um analytical. And my mom was, you know, very analytical and loved all that. And, you know, pop nobbing during that period of time, it was almost the 60s, you know, the late 50s. And it felt um, I don't want to say new age, but kind of, you know, at that time, at that period of time, it felt exciting. You know, it was definitely against um Christianity that she and my dad had been raised in. So it was something new and exciting for them, a new way of thinking.

SPEAKER_04: 6:04

That makes sense. Um, and so let me ask you. So your title, Clearly Lies Are True, is is striking. And I wanted to hear from you, what does that represent to you?

SPEAKER_03: 6:16

Gosh, that's a great question. I don't know if I've had that one yet. Um let's see. Well, you know, as a writer, and I now can say that, I can own it. I'm a writer and I'm an author. Um, that was really hard for me to own for a very long time, even through the whole process. Um, even when I got the book in the mail, I didn't, I didn't own it. Um to me that that title came to me. I I had many working titles. And throughout the writing journey, that title came to me and I wrote it down and it stuck. I kept revisiting it and I kept thinking, you know, should it it had to have something to do with clear?

SPEAKER_04: 7:01

Because I knew I wanted to bring in that about, you know, because you become clear in Scientology, and that's you know the state of clear that's outlined in Dianetics, which I would imagine was a big part of what your father was initially perhaps interested in.

SPEAKER_03: 7:18

Very much so, very much so. So um, so he was one of the original clears um back in DC. So there are about 15 of them, and I found that, and that was really interesting to me because he always wore his clear bracelet and he told me the story of it, but I really didn't get the significance of all of that, you know, as as a child. And so that clear piece, and then, you know, clearly the lies in Scientology are true, people believe them. Like, and so, you know, it's that that truth versus lies, and and who's to say which is which.

SPEAKER_04: 7:55

Right. Did do you by chance know your father's clear number? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_03: 8:01

Oh gosh. Um, I know my mom's, it's 700. Um it's in the book, yeah. I wonder do I know it? I don't think it was it because there's there's two different, so I don't know his second clear number because you know those first clears, those first 15 clears, ended up being, you know, in Scientology you'd say invalidated. They ended up not being, you know, the true clear because of course they came out with more things you had to do to become clear. Yes, more auditing you had to be involved in, you know, to become clear. So I know that he did all of that, but I don't know. I want to say it's in the 400s.

SPEAKER_04: 8:39

Oh, wow. Okay. Either way, the point remains there. Very early days Scientologists. And and so at what point in your childhood did you like how old were you, let's say, when you realized that your parents were involved in this mysterious organization known as Scientology?

SPEAKER_03: 9:00

That's another really good question. I don't think it became I don't think I really understood it as Scientology until we went to St. Hill. So, you know, as a child, I mean, you know, I knew that we spoke differently. My parents believed different things. I mean, I, you know, you learn early on as a kid how to hide the things you don't want your friends to know about.

SPEAKER_04: 9:24

For sure. 100%.

SPEAKER_03: 9:28

And so I always knew that, like, okay, this is something that like only happens in my house. I don't see that happening, you know, in friends' homes. It's it's different. Um, but when we went to St. Hill, so that was in 66, 67, my mom packed um me and my little brother up. So we were at like nine and four. And she went to Saint Hill. And you know, I remember flying.

SPEAKER_04: 9:52

And of course, for anyone listening, just to say Saint Hill is the Scientology headquarters in England. Um, and and it again, that's where there are so many parallels that I could relate to in your book because my my my mother joined the sea organization at Saint Hill in 1979. So when I was four years old, that's when when I went there. So you talked about Tempridge Wells, and I was like, Oh yeah, those my my old digs. Right?

SPEAKER_03: 10:24

Yeah, just for the 10-year difference. Really?

SPEAKER_04: 10:27

Yes, exactly. But go ahead. So you were talking about when you arrived at St. Hill and you're nine years old.

SPEAKER_03: 10:34

So then I realized that there were more people like my parents because it was all Scientologists at the Harewood Hotel in Tunbridge Wells, you know, where we stayed. And so, you know, that's that's who we were around all the time. That's so the only people that, you know, I saw my mom talking to that were at the hotel, you know, she got in the van to get driven to St. Hill, you know, in the morning and then, you know, came back at night. And um I I realized then that, oh, like there's a a lot of these, you know, people that that believe this. Um, and then we went to some um child care in England for a short period of time when we were, uh my mom was at St. Hill, and there was a little boy there who was South African and he from South Africa and his parents were Scientologists, and that's how my mom, you know, found out about that daycare. Although the woman who took care of us was not. Yeah, she didn't have anything to do with it. Um, and then, you know, of course, when we got on the ship, so that's another part of my story, is that um we got on the Royal Scotman before it became the Apollo, which was the Scientology Sea Org ship. So at the very beginning of the C project, so before it even became the C organization. And, you know, it's it's Hubbard's L. Ryan Hubbard's story of, you know, he left DC, he went to the UK fleeing, you know, taxes, then he had to buy a ship to go to the Mediterranean to flee, you know, more taxes, and you know, to keep hiding and to keep being able to make money, you know, without being taxed. So we followed that. And I'm I really I never asked my mother the why, and that's a regret that I wish, you know, I have a lot of regrets about that of with our relationship, but that I I wish I knew I knew why. Why did we get on that ship? You know, what was going on?

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 12:23

So it was, and it was the very beginning. So there was the crew that were, you know, brought on and they were all Scientologists, and then there were the public. And so that was my mom and my little brother and I, and a bunch of other public people. And so they were given Scientology auditing and and I don't know if maybe training happened too. I'm not really sure.

SPEAKER_04: 12:44

Right. And that that was something that surprised me because I didn't, I had I just hadn't personally realized that children of civilian Scientologists even were brought onto that ship in the very early days. As you said, before even there was a C organization or a billion-year contract or all of that. It was my mind-boggling to me to know that um there's just decades and decades of the same treatment of children that's been going on since the get-go. Right. Right. Yeah.

unknown: 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 13:19

And that's a good point. Um, I think I don't want to say spared. I mean, the really horrible things, you know, with being put in chain lockers and people jumping overboard and all of that was not happening, luckily, when we were on the ship. Um, you know, it happened after. But and I think also because of it being the very beginning, and the Hubbard children were on the ship. So that, you know, they left St. Hill, and then that was their new home. And so Mary Sue, Hubbard's wife, decided that, you know, the children were gonna still be getting their education. You know, this was their new home, and so they needed to still have an education. And so there was a tutor, Sylvia Hare, and she was a Scientologist, and she was brought on board to tutor. And so we were there with the Hubbard kids and other kids. So we had this like kind of strange routine in that there was the nursery where we were kept with other kids. Um, but we had this nanny that was not very nice to us, who was a Scientologist. And, you know, kids were just um they were expendable, you know, they were not really um, there wasn't a place for them. There really wasn't a place for them.

SPEAKER_04: 14:34

And even I'm very definitely not a priority.

SPEAKER_03: 14:39

Definitely not a priority. Yeah, definitely not a priority. And so, you know, we we I went to school with them, I was tutored with them, and then we were in the the nursery, and I helped take care of other little kids there. There was a little baby we used to take care of. And I remember um I write about one incident. Um, maybe this speaks to just the conditions on the ship at that time. Because they weren't allowed to go into port in any of the Mediterranean ports, they were just not letting them in. Um, they had no provisions. So they had stocked at Southampton, you know, stock provisions, and then it took them several different ports until they were finally let in. We were let in at Valencia in Spain. And so food was becoming scarce, and you know, it's been documented in there. And that was really interesting to me to read about that history too, because I have this very clear memory of being served tongue.

SPEAKER_04: 15:40

Oh, yes, I do remember that that part of your story. I was like, oh gosh, I would have reacted the same way you did, like, no thanks.

SPEAKER_03: 15:48

But it was like that's all that was left were these, you know, and and then this watery soup that they would serve. So, you know, conditions were not good for anyone, definitely, you know, for children as well. But I learned a lot about that period of time too from talking to Janice Gillam Grady, you know, and her experiences as the Commodore's messenger and and when she boarded the ship. Um, it was really the coming and the going. So we were going, civilians were offboarded, and the coming was this was the real sea organization.

SPEAKER_04: 16:20

Wow. So were you on the ship at the same time as Janice, or you're there. Oh, okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 16:28

I always say we were ships in the night. Yeah. We were because she she went on, she's a couple of years older than I am, and so she was the one who actually helped me with that timeline. Is that we were offboarded in right before January, so in December, and then they were onboarded in January.

SPEAKER_04: 16:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 16:48

So literally, literally, literally just missed each other. And when I um had gone on her um channel, she showed me some pictures of the ship, and that was so cool. And that I remember like of the ship when she was on there, and there was the room where we were tutored, and I said, Oh my god, that's the room.

SPEAKER_04: 17:11

Wow, that's that's crazy to come full circle like that.

SPEAKER_03: 17:15

Yeah. But you know, think about putting children or families or anybody in an old, you know, cattle ship that's really not even been renovated that well, you know, is just not a good idea.

SPEAKER_04: 17:27

No, definitely not. So, how long were you on the Royal Scotman?

SPEAKER_03: 17:34

So we were on from November, the Maiden Voyage, until that December when we were offboarded. Yeah, when we left off, yeah. So I'm not sure exactly um, you know, the date on in December. I mean, I know the maiden voyage date, so it was pretty close to that.

SPEAKER_04: 17:53

Okay. So about a month give or take.

SPEAKER_03: 17:56

Month and a half, yeah, yeah. And I think that was really um something that my mom didn't know was going to happen, but was fortuitous for all of us.

SPEAKER_04: 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:08

Because I think she may have been given the choice to stay on, but without us.

SPEAKER_04: 18:15

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03: 18:16

Because children, you know, we're not gonna be on the ship.

SPEAKER_04: 18:19

Yeah. But did but so so you made reference to being tutored with the Hubbard children. Did they stay on the ship or were they also then removed from the ship? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03: 18:32

I don't know, but I think they were still on the ship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:36

I think so.

SPEAKER_03: 18:36

Yeah. I'm pretty sure because I remember when I was at um Celebrity Center, which is part of my story, you know, in the 70s, um, the very original celebrity center that Yvonne Gillum Gents um started.

unknown: 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:49

And um Quentin Hubbard came to visit. He did a like it was uh an event, and he was sick.

SPEAKER_04: 18:58

And Quentin was Hubbard's oldest son or not his oldest?

SPEAKER_03: 19:04

Yes, well, except for his, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 19:07

It was aside from the the Hubbard, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, he was the old second wife he never had, or whatever. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 19:18

So there was Diana Quentin, Suzanne, and then yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 19:23

And of course, I worked with Diana at the headquarters for many years. I was I was at Rowan, her daughter, El Ron Hubbard's granddaughter's wedding. Rowan is a very good friend of ours, anyway. It's just it's just crazy. There are so many interactions, but and we'll get to some of those later too. But so circling back, you mentioned your father had read Dianetics in the very early days. Do you know how he got introduced to it? Like, did he just find you know, buy the book of the bookstore, or was there a person that introduced him? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03: 20:01

I don't know if there was a person, but I know that he was a big sci-fi reader.

SPEAKER_04: 20:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 20:06

So, you know, that's my connection with it in that he was reading astounding science fiction, you know, that Hubbard was writing. And so I think that he got drawn into it that way because he was always very interested in that.

SPEAKER_04: 20:19

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03: 20:21

But I don't know. There might have been a person as well. Yeah, but I don't know. Like I said, those are the unanswered questions that I always regret that I didn't have enough time with my parents to ask those questions.

SPEAKER_04: 20:32

Yeah. And and just to say, I am so sorry for uh you being a victim of child essay and everything that you outlined. I I really appreciate your bravery and courage in sharing you those parts of your story, especially, but also just your entire Scientology story. I think I personally believe that every voice matters and is important. So thank you for doing this.

SPEAKER_03: 20:59

Yeah, thank you, Claire. Um, like I said, I didn't start out to do it. I didn't start out to do it, and I just was trying to figure it out and to get everything out of my my head onto paper. And the more I wrote, then I realized there's a story here. And I started to see those parallels and I started to do so much research about. I mean, I started, you know, dabbling into um, you know, the internet, and it was at the period of time when I was writing that Leah Remney came out also, and I thought, oh my gosh, like people are starting to speak out about it. Like that was really not the history of Scientology. You know, you just kept quiet, right? And it was underground. Like, you know, there was Tony Ortega's blog and you know, and his website, you know, which I perused, and Clam Bake and all those different ones, and just started digging and reading stories and you know, reading Fairfaced Messiah and reading people's other people's memoirs. I read Jesse Prince's, I read, you know, so many, just to try to figure out, you know, how did this fit into the story? And then I realized, okay, there is a story here. And um, but people say courageous. I I don't feel courageous, I just feel like I was compelled in that it was the only way I was gonna get better.

SPEAKER_04: 22:20

Yes, though I will say I'm a firm believer that courage is feeling fear and doing it and face doing it or facing it anyway. You know, I I feel the same way when someone says, Oh, you're so courageous. I'm like, Well, I wouldn't really use that word, but when I saw that meaning of it, that's to me where I say it is courageous.

SPEAKER_02: 22:41

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 22:44

It's not that easy, you know. It's I think the sexual abuse piece was really um one of the harder things, and to try to make sense of that. Um, and to accept that the acceptance, but you know, because it's when you leave a cult, it's accepting that you had beliefs or that you connected with beliefs that were somewhat crazy, you know, and that you have to rethink all that and and realize that you know you were not crazy, it was what was going on was crazy, right? Right, completely right, and so with sexual abuse, um, it's accepting that that really happened to you and being able to speak about it. And what I found is that um it's not comfortable for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 23:28

You know, talking about Scientology is uncomfortable for a lot of people, and talking about sexual abuse isn't comfortable for a lot of people. So yeah, it's it's not for everybody to to hear these stories.

SPEAKER_04: 23:39

Yeah, though, uh yes, you're you're absolutely right. Though it is like you said, it's empowering to take back your voice and share your experiences and you know, let that let that all out.

unknown: 23:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 23:53

Yeah, yeah. So okay, so circling back, um so for from your perspective, what are your earliest Scientology memories?

unknown: 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:08

My earliest Scientology memories are probably of getting a touch assist as a little kid. So, you know, the touch assist is the the faith healing laying on of the hands in Scientology. Um, you know, and if you fell down and skinned your knee, you know, you'd get a touch assist, or if you had a fever, you know, you'd get a touch assist. And um it's not a bad memory. It's just um, you know, it it's it's like that's how my family dealt with if you were sick.

SPEAKER_04: 24:35

Right. Yep, I can definitely relate there. I can remember as a very young child, so yes, there were touch assists, and then there was also the contact assist, where when you hurt yourself, you have to put it back and release the moment of pain. And I was I was as a child, and I'm curious to hear your perspective on the assist that you experienced. But for me, I was like, hey, I just I just hit my let's say my hand on the desk. Why would I now go touch it back over and over and over again? It was it was just a rejection that I could never voice.

SPEAKER_03: 25:14

Yeah, yeah. Gosh, you know, I had not even thought about that one, Claire. You're bringing back a memory. I think that happened when I was riding my bike and I fell off, and now, yeah, and I had to like re-replay the fall.

SPEAKER_04: 25:30

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 25:31

Right, you had to replay the fall. And I remember thinking at the time, like, I just want to get up and go home. Like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to keep falling down. Right. Um, yeah, and you know, luckily, these were not um serious injuries.

SPEAKER_04: 25:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:48

You know, thankfully, when I did have a serious injury, you know, my parents did um take me to the doctor. I cut my leg open and had to have, you know, stitches and things like that. So um I remember a touch assist as well, but I was at least taken to the doctor and you know, stitches were put in.

SPEAKER_04: 26:04

Yeah, that's yeah, that's good. Yeah, I've had mixed experiences in my childhood on that department, but um yeah, and so okay, so that was your earliest memories. And so let me ask you, what was the first course, like training that you ever did in Scientology? And how old were you?

unknown: 26:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 26:25

So I did take a communication course at St. Hill. I have the certificate. I cannot, for the life of me, remember it. I don't know why. But um, I remember going like with my mom to St. Hill a couple of times, and I don't, but I don't remember like what we did. But I have a couple of those. I have the communication course certificate, and I have the ARC something training certificate, affinity reality communication, whatever it was we did there. So I don't have good memories of those, but I have the certificates. But my very earliest memories would be when I was a teenager, when I started volunteering at Celebrity Center. And so I was kind of voluntole to go because my parents, um, it's part of my story, um, both of them um had some health issues, and so they were no longer participating in Scientology, and you know, really they were no longer giving money to Scientology, and so they really weren't important to Scientology anymore. So they needed fresh blood. So I was voluntold and I started at Celebrity Center just volunteering, and then I started taking courses. So I would say it was again the communication course, the TRs.

SPEAKER_04: 27:42

So that's where I the training routines. And and just do you remember doing those drills as a as a teenager?

SPEAKER_03: 27:51

I do. I do remember doing those drills. So it was the, you know, do birds fly, do fish swim, it was all of those crazy things. And I remember as a teenager, so one of the the things I write about in my story too is that, you know, even though it was celebrity center and they were bringing in celebrities, they still did what Scientology um tells you to do, which is you bring in people who have ruins, right? Which is there's things that you know are wrong with them. You're basically just pulling people off the street and giving them the personality test and then saying, okay, here it is. This is the thing that's wrong with you, and this is what you need to sign up for.

SPEAKER_04: 28:25

And Scientology can help you with that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 28:28

And Scientology can fix that, right?

SPEAKER_04: 28:30

Allegedly. Allegedly.

SPEAKER_03: 28:32

Yes, sorry, go ahead. You pay a lot of money and uh spend a lot of time. But there was a man who was um, you know, and it was downtown Los Angeles, so it wasn't in a great area of town, and so there were people walking by all the time. So this man who was blind was brought in, and he was probably given the personality test, and he was signed up, and he was the person that I was running the TRs with. And it was a very strange experience. It was, I don't want to say scary because I don't remember feeling scared, but I remember just thinking, I've never looked at a blind person's eyes before because they didn't have sunglasses on, or you know, I remember thinking, I'm I don't know why he's not wearing glasses, like maybe they told him to take his glasses off. I don't even know. But running those drills with him and thinking to myself as a teenager, this is really doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 29:33

But you couldn't say that. You know, you you couldn't you couldn't say anything like that. You had to just do it. And I remember thinking, like, what does it have to do with like communication?

SPEAKER_04: 29:43

Right. Yeah, makes sense. Um and so you were what age what from when you were at celebrity center now?

SPEAKER_03: 29:54

So I started at 13. So to me, uh, you know, it was a deciding to go there because you know I was a teenager. Um I didn't want to be at home. You know, my parents were, my dad was um disabled, um, and my mom was agoraphobic, and it was not a fun place to be. And so any place besides home was good.

SPEAKER_02: 30:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 30:18

You know, and I I liked going. And you know, it was all adults too. And I've talked about this before where, you know, as a child in Scientology, as a, you know, and I was a child who was 13, um, 13 to like 15 and then 16 when I left. Um you're viewed as an adult. Right. Because in Scientology they believe that you are a Thaytan who is, I don't know, I say like a soul, but it's not like a soul. It's somebody who's lived millions and millions and millions of lives. You know, it's like you're you're infinite. And so this is one of your lives. And so you just happen to be, you know, this Thetan and it's a very young body. But you've been all kinds of people before this. And so they view you as an equal. Right. And that was really heavy. I liked that.

SPEAKER_04: 31:11

Yeah. And so speaking about your time at Celebrity Center, another uh parallel you were talking about Ray Midoff and Gelda. And um so again I worked with both Ray and Gelda at the headquarters for many years until um until I escaped Ray I'm sure is if he's still alive is in the hole um banished off of all management lines of Scientology. But interestingly I was 16 years old when I arrived at the headquarters and Gelda became my legal guardian. What my parents signed over guardianship of me uh because I had to have a legal guardian at that property. So I had never met her when that happened but she she was my my senior my boss and also my guardian wow yeah it's crazy right that is crazy. Yeah so your your description of Gelda exactly matched it it you know I mean it was 20 years 20 some I mean I so it was a long time later. Now I'm talking 1991 1992 is when I met Gelda when I arrived at that property but it was just again like I said the the worst things that I could relate to and people that you mentioned that I'm like oh yeah yeah yeah so was she a good mom no no no that's my guess yeah yeah um yeah it's so funny so funny yeah I can't even believe that because she was older than Ray.

SPEAKER_03: 32:53

Yeah yeah and older Ray and you know um it it's one thing that um you know I didn't put his last name I I did originally have his last name in the book and then when I was working with my editor and everything and I said you know I'm gonna take it out I don't know I don't want any repercussions because of that but you know everybody I've talked to about him it's like yeah he's probably still there and I remember I asked someone I said why do you think he never left I mean he seemed like a good guy like you know he he did not seem and those were my feelings you know at the time that he just you know he had a he had an altruistic purpose yeah yeah sadly he is the first person that I personally witnessed David Miscavige physically assault in March of 1996 and as to why he's still there I think he he probably on some level does truly believe like you know there are people in the upper levels of Scientology there's two categories of people there there are people there to wield power and control and there are people there who really believe in Hubbard and then there are people there who are just there by default and don't want to lose their families and everything else I think I I think of anybody I think Ray and Shelly Miscavige both were true believers like they had drunk the Kool-Aid that's just my personal perspective yeah that's what someone else told me as well yeah for both of those people yeah I've heard that for both of those people so um it's very sad it's very very very sad and um it speaks to you know it speaks to the cult you know nature of Scientology it speaks to you know the coercive tactics it speaks to the abuse like you said he's still abused and still stays um I think also it speaks to that longevity that there's probably and I don't want to say like a sweet spot but there's like a time when you're you're kind of like okay I could leave I mean you left you know and I know and other people left but it's like you know Ray's old now you know in his 70s and you know are you gonna leave? What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_04: 35:19

Right and and after so many years of isolation and you know just being in a complete bubble if you will um like and feeling stuck in a bubble it can be very very hard but it is never too late. That's that's the upside so you know um but but it nonetheless it's um very challenging I've heard it likened to the sunk cost fallacy um but on an emotional and even time perspective.

SPEAKER_03: 35:51

So not sunk cost fallacy is usually money, stock market and so forth but if you translate that into well how hard is it when you've been in a cult for 30 40 50 years to wake up and and acknowledge to yourself that this was a huge mistake right exactly yeah yeah exactly and and that is a very very difficult thing to do a very difficult thing I mean it was difficult enough to speak out you know as you have and as I have and everybody else who has because you are you're questioning that part of your life you know and you're saying I mean and I didn't have a lot of choice you didn't have a lot of choice either you know we we were God we became Scientologists because of our parents right um but even for my my mother when she left and you know eventually she was able to um whenever she spoke of it and maybe that makes a lot of sense now she spoke of it in a way that like not fondly but as if it was okay you know just to make probably herself not think what a waste of time.

SPEAKER_04: 37:07

Right yeah I mean I would love to hear your thoughts on this personally sorry no worries personally uh having gotten out of Scientology and now having children that was for me one of the hugest wake up calls to actually confront and face what I experienced as a child the trauma I went through and everything else because when you have children of your own all of a sudden for and again I'm speaking from my perspective not speaking for you of course but um you know at every milestone I would reflect on wow that's like when my oldest son turned four years old I'm like wow that's the age I was when my mother abandoned me to the cadet organization I'm curious what your experience was with that.

SPEAKER_03: 38:03

Yeah very much the same very much the same even though I'd shut the door on it I mean you know when you said you hadn't even told you know your husband um I had told my husband very very little he knew a little bit about it but I I didn't talk about it you know and once I got married and you know we started a family I mean I definitely never talked about it but those memories would come up and I didn't really I didn't even realize why like I get anxious or nervous or you know part of it was the sexual abuse you know when my children were the same age as I was when I was sexually abused but also those milestone experiences so like on the ship you know at nine years old when we you know went there and then at 13 you know when I when I got involved with Scientology. But even as a younger child like thinking um wow yeah that's that we my mom took us on a plane you know and took us all the way to England and then dumped us in a hotel room and went to St. Hill and did training and auditing and then went on a ship and you know barely ever saw us and like who would do that right yeah it it just was you know unfathomable to think that that's how you would parent but I don't know about you I made the decision um very clearly to myself that I was never going to parent the way that my parents had oh I mean 100% 100% like it was like this the minute I got out of it I'm like nope we are not doing that. Did did those experiences cause any latent anger towards your parents oh yes oh yes um so my mom and I you know we never um we had a very interesting relationship um and you know sadly she passed um years ago you know she she passed when I was 38 years old I mean my dad died when I was 19 so both of my parents died early um so I didn't really have that opportunity to heal with them which I do I do regret um I don't know if I would have happened had they still been living I don't know you know but I think it might have been an opportunity so I was very angry with my mother for most of my life yes very angry with her but I didn't really know why I was so mad at her. And a lot of that had to do with the sexual abuse and that um she learned of it and then she didn't do anything about it and so it went underground. But as a sexual abuse survivor I learned that sometimes you align with the perpetrator and so I was always um on my dad's side you know and not my mom's side which was so crazy you know thinking about it now after what I know about the abuse. So I was always angry with her but I think a lot of that had to do with just I I could tell that she just wasn't like other moms. Like she just didn't have that maternal instinct or that skill set. And even though I hadn't even reflected on all the craziness at that time I just knew that you know she wasn't a good mom. Yeah and and I was mad at her for that.

SPEAKER_04: 41:18

Yep I no I totally get that and I I've often reflected on maybe at least in my scenario maybe that was part of the draw for my mother to join the C organization because it essentially alleviated her of the burden of me because she just dropped me off into the cadet org you know so and I know that I'm not sure if that was the case for you or not but yes you're right that the the culture of Scientology does not um lend itself to making excellent parents that's for damn sure that is for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 42:01

And just the thinking the way that um you are trained or you know indoctrinated into thinking as a Scientologist you don't see the world as it is you see it through that Scientology lens. And so you know you're not making clear decisions you know that align with you know what really should be happening in the world. You know an example is like I didn't realize um that we didn't go to doctors or dentists you know throughout my whole childhood. And then finally when we moved to Los Angeles um and my mom got out of Scientology and she had to start working because my dad was disabled she finally got health insurance and we were I mean we had health insurance before though I know because my dad worked but she started sending us to the dentist and I had like five zillion cavities and I remember like there was always another dental appointment I remember thinking why do I have so many like why do I have to keep going to the dentist what's wrong with me and as an adult I started to think about that oh I didn't get that care.

SPEAKER_04: 43:12

Right. Yeah totally makes sense um another question I have so as we've talked about your book bravely discusses the experiences you had with child sexual assault how did Scientology's teachings impact your ability to name or understand what was happening so what was happening at the time right like with with um so for example in and in terms of I guess framing it a little better um in my experience the whole pretext of Scientology that if anything bad happens to you you've pulled it in it's your fault the victim shaming all of that I'm just curious how that did that have an impact in your experience in those early days or what's your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_02: 44:05

Yeah yeah that's a good question.

SPEAKER_03: 44:07

Um and thought of it through that lens. So I did not remember the sexual abuse until I had this traumatic event happen that activated those memories. So that's when I started to have these flashbacks and you know I'd been in therapy my whole life for anxiety and you know panic attacks because those would happen you know at different times within my my life especially like we were talking about when our kids were a certain age and they would always ask me you know were you sexually abused do you have any history of that and I would always say no but I always had a memory of sitting on my dad's lap and him telling us telling me that we had a secret and that we had to keep that secret from my mom. And so I write about that in that Scientology is about secrets. Right. And so I already had that Scientology secret. I don't tell my friends about the Scientology stuff that my parents talk about at home or the Scientology magazines or the you know the why we were not in school for six months and then we came back and then we were like you know where were you? Like nobody talked about that. My parents didn't talk about it and I didn't talk about it. So secrets were very familiar. Keeping secrets was very familiar to me. So that was really my lens as a child. So then when all of this you know came out later in life and I started you know having these repressed memories it was hard to accept them at first because I thought to myself as many sexual abuse survivors do well you know why are you just remembering it now why why didn't you remember it before you know this was a really long time ago and it wasn't going away though. You know it wasn't going away and it was always the same. And I know as an educator um you know as a mandated reporter in dealing with children um that the way that trauma manifests itself you know and the way that you um survive a lot of trauma is by repressing it and you know and and by keeping it inside. So so but at the time I I didn't I just knew there were secrets. Yeah and also because I had this anger with my mom because she did walk in on us and I do I did have that memory. I didn't realize what it was until more memories happened and how angry she was that oh yeah we're definitely not going to talk about this. It's definitely going to be another secret and this is the secret that my dad and I have and so like I said I aligned with him yeah sadly.

SPEAKER_04: 46:50

I'm so sorry. Yeah no it's it's um it's a lot to live through well let me pause for a minute I'm gonna pull up your book cover here and so everyone can take a look and of course I will include a link to your book do you have a preference on where people should purchase this from um I think wherever they want to um you know it's on Amazon so it's a paperback it's an audible and it's an ebook um you can also order it if you go to your local bookstore like Barnes and Nobles has it so you can order it through Ingram because it's published through that um publishing company as well because they self-published.

SPEAKER_03: 47:28

So you can look it up even a lot of independent bookstores um will have it so you can look for it online.

SPEAKER_04: 47:34

Yeah yeah awesome so yes clearly lies are true and just to read what the description you have here Pamela Nickel Williams is the author of Clearly Lies Are True a memoir that offers a firsthand account of growing up as the daughter of early Scientology followers during the 1950s 60s and 70s through detailed experiences as experiences and vivid memories she reveals how the movement powerfully and forcefully shaped her family and her own childhood and teenage years. I think that's a great description that's on point.

SPEAKER_03: 48:10

Yeah yeah to get to that yes so I'm hoping I can and I don't know maybe I'll wait for more questions but um I wanted to talk about also the journey and the of the writing and then having to have some purpose with it.

SPEAKER_04: 48:25

Absolutely go for it.

SPEAKER_03: 48:27

Go for it okay um because it was one thing to write it all down and it was one thing to spend years and years writing it and then to finally have it come to fruition and to go on that healing journey. So that has been you know just I wouldn't say wonderful but it has been um positive. Yes it's been positive to share that with my own children so I have four children four daughters and they're all adults now um to and I never told them about it. Never told them about it. You know it was it was the generational trauma secret you know that nobody talked about and I wasn't going to talk about it. And so to be able to share that with them and to come full circle and to say okay we're breaking this you know you know about it I've talked about it I don't have to keep this a secret anymore was so healing so so healing. So that was you know the personal healing but because Scientology is such a horrible organization um and because of my experiences and all of the experiences that I've read about and heard about I needed to do something more. And so I want to donate and I do um a profit a portion of the profits from the sale of my book to the Aftermath Foundation.

SPEAKER_04: 49:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 49:43

So well it's you're welcome.

SPEAKER_04: 49:46

No but truly we I I was going to mention that you um I I heard at the in the end section you talk about the Michael J. Rinder Aftermath Foundation it's um it's been quite the journey and we appreciate your support. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 50:03

Yeah it it had to have a purpose because you know and after reading you know Mike Rinder's book um and you know just everyone's story that's the only thing that we can do not the only thing it's one of the most important things that we can do to help people get out of Scientology. That's right. It's one of the most important things that we can do and you're doing you know the work on the ground to help people get out to give them the support that they need um they're getting everything that they need you know they're getting a home they're getting an education they're you know finding friends finding a job all of those things that you know they wouldn't be able to do on their own and so it's so so so important and part of that is because at 16 I was told to join I was strong armed told that I should join the Sea Org and I was ready. I was going to and I am so grateful that you didn't let me just say that you and I both and luckily my mom for everything that I was angry with her about you know she helped me dodge a bullet and she wasn't going to allow me to um and she also yeah yeah so that's that's that you know the reason also is that that could have been my life and so that's one way to help people um that sadly that became their life you know and to help them get out.

SPEAKER_04: 51:24

Yes no absolutely and so when what what was the release date for your book? It was August 31st yeah nice and what has the response been like so far?

SPEAKER_03: 51:37

The response um I have the good story yeah so it's been good I have been doing some author events um at some different bookstores I have one this um weekend locally at a local bookstore and then I'm gonna be going up to Portland for another one at a bookstore but I did a book festival I went to a book festival and it was a small one but it was really interesting. And so you know I had that sign that you showed and my story and everything and so I had my table with all my books. And so people would walk by and they'd kind of read it they'd look and then they'd either raise their eyebrows a little and look at me and then they'd either come up to my table and want to know more or they'd walk away. And so I really realized who my readers are or the kind of people that are interested you know and are are brave enough to come up and ask and to talk. And so when I would talk to people you know I'd say give me questions and so you know they might ask me about my story. And then I would sometimes start with well what do you know about Scientology? And every single person Claire had a story that was not positive. Every single person there wasn't one person who came up and said oh yeah I've heard good things no one said that I I've had the same experience literally so yeah I can absolutely relate and so let me ask you so if a reader takes one core message from your book what do you hope that is so this may sound strange but I I want to say hope I want to say hope in that there is hope for people that were involved in Scientology like myself and others um and I want them to also take away that I was able to get to forgiveness because without the hope and without the forgiveness you're just stuck in anger. Yeah and I didn't want to be stuck in anger I'd been stuck in anger my whole life and so I did not want to stay in that place because that's not a healthy place. So um the other maybe message is it's a hard read but it's a good read. That's what everybody says to me.

SPEAKER_04: 53:49

I completely agree.

SPEAKER_03: 53:52

And and it's it's told I almost put a trigger warning on it because of the sexual abuse piece but um I it's told in a way that um I think is is not too intrusive in and that you'll be able to read it if that's something that you know is bothersome to you. I've had many people that have read it and said you know that was hard for me to read but I really like the way that you know you you shared it.

SPEAKER_04: 54:20

Yes I completely agree. And and and speaking of hope what brings you hope today and and where do you find joy now?

SPEAKER_03: 54:29

Ooh such good questions wow um joy and hope um well I have grandchildren and so my grandchildren bring me great joy you know they they really bring me joy that next generation and um they're they're just so important to me. I think hope yeah I think hope what brings me hope is that I see through the work of the aftermath I see through what I follow about Scientology that it is diminishing and that the numbers are waning and that people are so aware now of that the fact that it's a cult. Right. Right and not you know when people talk about you know religion it's like and people have even said that to me and I I started saying first I was a a um survivor of the church of Scientology and now I started saying I'm a survivor of the cult of Scientology. Right. Because it wasn't it's not a church. And so I think people are so aware of that and that that brings me hope that less and less young people will get involved in it. And you know what I have not enjoyed about this whole journey is social media I will tell you that. And so I'm on social media because it's the way to get the message out. Yeah um but I'm not comfortable with it. But through social media that's the way to get to young people that's the way to get to people to share message you know and to get it out there because that's what they're looking at. And so if young people are looking at it I'm so hopeful that they will not get involved and that they will see it for what it is.

SPEAKER_04: 56:05

Yes I I couldn't agree with you more. I personally um obviously birth to 30 was my life in Scientology and I I came when once I escaped I came to realize the power of labels within Scientology. So you know I had a big fear of becoming a suppressive person and being disconnected from my family all of which of course happened but I came to realize from the outside and on reflection the only power in those labels is the power I give them. And so I couldn't agree with you more on yes it is not a church of Scientology. It is the cult of Scientology if you look at there are so many books on people's stories there's the um Bite model from Dr.

SPEAKER_03: 56:56

Stephen Hassan you know there are just so many studies on this um so power to you for naming it as it is and that is one of the things that um has really been exciting to see with the aftermath is that bringing on people that you know know about cults and like you said naming it and saying yeah Scientology is that kind of a cult. You know it falls into that category and educating the public you know and as an educator I mean I think that's that's the most powerful way that you can get the message out.

SPEAKER_04: 57:32

Yes very much so awesome well um we're about to hit our hour for today uh thank you so very much for your time I guess my last question for you is what's next?

SPEAKER_03: 57:43

What's next? I know um I have another book in me it's not a Scientology book but um I sort of embraced writing and so I'm I'm speaking that truth now I I've said it a couple of times so I think it's something I'm gonna have to do um I am also going to I've been an educator a lifelong educator and I am finally going to retire I've decided I'm I'm going to be done I'm gonna hang up that educator hat. Yeah um you're always an educator though you know when you go that route but I'm gonna hang that up for a while and just you know pursue some other things. So I'm I'm just thankful that this journey has ended and it's not even ended, has wound this way, you know and kind of seeing what else what else happens and hoping to get the message out more and more you know just keeping it going and whatever I can do to support that.

SPEAKER_04: 58:35

Awesome. Well thank you again for your um sharing your book with us as I said I will link to um the all the different places to purchase the book and the links that you provided so to anyone watching I highly recommend getting a copy of Pamela's book and reading it.

SPEAKER_00: 58:53

Thank you Claire and thank you for reading it yes of course you talid you liked the audible that seems so uh great no you did a really good job I I was impressed you you truly so awesome well thank you everyone for tuning in today thank you Pamela for joining us and we will see you soon all right thank you Claire thanks for having me thank you thanks for watching if you'd like to help support the channel feel free to check out the merch store link in the description we have hail Zenu Xinu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads shirts mugs all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book Lone for Good behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback Kindle and Audible version as well there's also a link to our podcast and you can get that on Apple Spotify or wherever you look at the podcast and if you'd like to watch another video you can click on this link right here or you can click on this one here Or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot until next time.