Cult Survivor Series #1 with Sarah Edmondson & Nippy Ames

The moment you realize “this could happen to anyone” is the moment you start getting your power back. We’re kicking off our Cult Survivor Series with two of the most important voices in the cult recovery space: Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames, co-hosts of A Little Bit Culty, to talk about their new book A Little Bit Culty: Navigating Cults, Control, and Coercion.

We get into what makes high control groups work across religions, self-help programs, political movements, and influencer communities, even when they look nothing alike on the surface. Sarah and Nippy break down coercive control in plain language: love bombing that turns conditional, information control, isolation, punishment for questioning, and the “special” jargon that trains you to gaslight yourself. We also talk about why cult recruitment isn’t about intelligence, and how a simple checklist mindset can help you spot red flags early, before you’re deeply invested.

From there we go personal and practical: parenting after a cult, teaching kids how to ask questions without fear, setting boundaries while still building real community, and how online algorithms can target vulnerability and amplify recruitment tactics. We also talk honestly about healing, PTSD, trust, and why recovery doesn’t have a clean endpoint, it comes in waves.

If this conversation helps you, share it with someone who needs better language for what they’re experiencing, and subscribe for more survivor stories. After you listen, leave a comment with the biggest warning sign you’ve seen in a group or relationship.

Transcript

Why The Cult Survivor Series

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Hi everyone and welcome back to the channel, Blown for Good, Scientology Exposed. I'm Claire, and today we're introducing something new on this channel called the Cult Survivor Series. For years, Mark and I have shared our experiences growing up and working inside Scientology. We've talked about life in the sea organization, the policies, the control systems, and what it took for us to eventually leave. But one thing we've learned since speaking out is that the patterns we experienced are not unique to Scientology. Again and again, we've heard from people who grew up in or escaped other high control groups, different names, different beliefs, different leaders, but many of the same tactics. Isolation from family, pressure to conform, information control, punishment for questioning, and a constant message that the group is the only place you can be safe, loved, or saved. That's what this series is about. In the Cult Survivor series, we'll be talking with people who have left a wide range of high control groups. What these groups share in common is the way they pull people in, how they maintain control, and how difficult it can be to leave. Our goal with these conversations is not just to tell stories, though those are important too. It's also to explore the patterns, how people are recruited, what keeps members inside, what happens psychologically and emotionally when someone begins to question, and what it actually takes to break away and rebuild a new life. We also want to show something else that often gets lost in discussion about cults. The people who join these groups are not weak, gullible, many are thoughtful, compassionate, idealistic people looking for meaning, purpose, a community, or just a way to help others. Those are human needs that all of us share. High control groups simply exploit them. By hearing directly from survivors of different groups, we hope viewers will recognize the common warning signs and gain insight into the common themes of coercion, control, and manipulation. And just as importantly, we want survivors watching this to know you are not alone. People from many different backgrounds have gone through similar experiences and have found ways to rebuild their lives. So that's the purpose of the Cult Survivor series to learn, to compare, to understand, and give a voice to people who lived through these systems and found their way out. We're so grateful to the guests who are willing to share their stories with us. And we hope these conversations will help bring more awareness to the realities of high control groups. So with that, we will dive into today's conversation. Thank you for watching. All right, welcome, Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames, my amazing friends. I love you guys so, so much. And today we're talking about your new book, which I have right here, a little bit culty, navigating cults, control, and coercion. So, first of all, welcome to the show. Welcome back, Sarah. Thank you. Great to have you, Nippy. I don't think you were with us last time, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

No, no, I'm second fiddle on all this stuff, which is fine. But we just want to say feelings mutual, Claire.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Yeah, we love you so much.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

We were very excited to come on and chat.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

Yeah, I've met a lot of amazing people in the cult recovery space, but you guys are in my top 10 hands.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Likewise, likewise, feelings mutual.

SPEAKER_05 4:20

Feeling is absolutely so you're in top five, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Oh Mark.

SPEAKER_05 4:24

Oh, okay, top three.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Top three.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

All right, five. I kind of I kind of lobbied for that one there.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

It's all good. Anyway, yes, and absolutely congratulations on your new book. This is Sarah, your second book. Um, and of course, I will link in the video description to your first book, SCARD, and the interviews we've done previously, both on your channel and our channel, um, so people can get up to speed on your story because today our conversation will focus on your book. Uh so how do you feel? Congratulations, it's out now.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

It's been such a labor of love, Claire. Like we started, we started thinking about this, I think, around just before I did TED Talk, which was in like 2023, I believe, right? I think. Yeah. And so that's when I had that. We had, you know, we worked um on the outline, and then we I think we started actively writing over two years ago. This time last year, we thought that we were done. Just before the summer, we were like, it's done. We had the draft, we we got some feedback that maybe needed some structural things. And then we ended up bringing in uh Melody, who I introduced you to, um, who basically did an overhaul, and then so we realized there were some gaps.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

It's just like Well, it wasn't good.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

It wasn't good, it really wasn't. Um, and it there it's just so hard to explain something that's not linear in a linear fashion, and in a way that somebody could read it who doesn't know about any of the things. We won't assume that somebody doesn't know any of the things, most of which I know you know gaslighting, coercion, um, you know, all the different tactics that cults and culty groups, people, organizations use in a way that somebody could read it and really get it and get all the concepts in a really palatable way. So Melody was great because she didn't know any of that. So she was asking really basic questions that we took for granted, like, you know, why would somebody want to start a cult? Who are these people? And then, like, set, you know, setting it up in that way. So, yeah, and answered your question, it feels really good to finally have it done. It's a total labor of love. Um, I'm a perfectionist, so uh it was very difficult to finish it. There was every time I thought it was finished, I'd interview another guest and be like, but I need to put their story in. I need to include that.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

That was fun.

SPEAKER_05 6:45

And then so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

So I didn't think leaving a cult tested our marriage enough, so we decided to write a book.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Oh my gosh. Well, hey, at least you didn't build a house. I've heard that that's uh even worse.

SPEAKER_06 7:00

We'll never do that.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

Not that I've done that, not that I planned that, but uh, you know, I've I've heard from a few people.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

I mean, leaving a cult, doing an international move, and writing a book together.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

Like it's just and having kids, don't forget that part. Raising raising children. Um, yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Who are also in sports.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Yes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I know that's what kids uh obviously we have three boys. That is the reason I have held off on doing my book up until this point, because you know, I there were when they were younger, I'm sure you guys can relate, but there's times you can't even finish a conversation, let alone write a book.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Also, you have to your your time, there's certain hours of the day where that your time is just spoken for. And so you have to learn to work within a framework of hours. And normally my life was like, oh, I can do two hours here, two hours here, two hours there, and like, no, your three hours are right here, and you have to learn how to maximize them and your mood doesn't matter.

Turning Cult Experience Into A Book

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Yeah, we we really try to get all our work done during school hours so that when we pick up the kids from school, you know, from three till bedtime, is there that we're with them. And you know, sometimes one of us will switch off so the other person can, you know, do some work. Um, we don't always have to both be there all the time, but we want our kids to feel our you know our presence. And our one of our things with prioritizing and getting this book done is that the book always came second to our kids. So it's taken a while. It's taken a while. Um, if we hadn't had all that, we probably would have been finished a while ago, but it's it is what it is, and we're very happy that it's out and it's like having it felt it just felt like we were pregnant with well, you don't know what this feels like, but you know, Claire, it feels like you're pregnant, like nine months pregnant for a long time. Where it's like I have to give birth, I have to give birth. Now it's birthed.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

And hopefully this is the fun part.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Yeah, yeah. Now we like want to introduce everyone to the baby. Yes. So we're making the rounds.

SPEAKER_05 8:57

This is the this is the the rounds. And and I will tell you, so I'm more than halfway through, and I am loving the really the breakdown and the vulnerability and the way that you've structured kind of weaving in your own individual stories to, you know, explain and help people understand that culture are truly in all walks of life in this day and age. And I love your emphasis in the beginning that this can happen to anybody.

unknown 9:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

That's definitely one of our goals is for people to we're punching that point. Yeah. I think if people don't get that by the end, then we didn't do our job. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Another thing, another thing too, it's kind of uh somewhat the same statement or the same statement adjacent is every belief system has an extreme version of itself. Yeah, you just might not be the extreme part, you might be a little bit extreme, or you might or the benign part. You might be the person who shows up and takes a yoga class and doesn't even know about it.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

So yeah, our our goal is really for people to to see those tactics as maybe not even a cult, but like just problematic. They might be in a group that's you know not a cult, but they subtly shame people for being late, you know, or something like that.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Right. That's no, absolutely I don't want to be a part of that group. No, exactly. And and I will say I'm I'm a to-do list checklist kind of a person. So I I'm thoroughly enjoying you have at the end of each chapter a culty checklist for various different, you know, elements of coercion and control, and this is what to look for. And hey, if you're looking for, are you looking for this, this, this, and you and you're like, check, check, check, yep. Oh, that that mat mark uh matches my experience 100%. I love those. It's uh really eye-opening and and it gives it the feel of more of a like walking alongside you both in the journey of what you've learned. And obviously, it's very clear to me how much care you have for your podcast and the the guests you've interviewed, and how those interviews, I would say at least this is the impression I got, have kind of expanded your view of what what a cult is, what the control tactics look like, what the coercion looks like, um, to where the the your book feels like not a a lecture per se, but like, hey, this was our experience and this is what it looked like for us. So hopefully this helps you understand it better.

The Culty Checklist And Who It’s For

SPEAKER_04 11:43

That's so great to hear. And and I am also a checklist person. I always have my to-do list beside my computer electronically on my computer, and then also on my phone. Then I got to have multiple lists, just to always make sure I get everything done. But um, the checklist was also, I think it was actually Melody's idea. We we had at least to call it the culty checklist. But one of the reasons why we thought it would be good to have that at the end is that for anyone who's getting out of a cult like us who have PTSD, sometimes reading a whole thing is hard. Uh, also why it will be on Audible uh eventually in a couple months. We're still still narrating, um, multitasking. But also that is just if they don't have, if they can't sit down for long enough to actually read, they can sort of skim to the end of each chapter and and look at it and go, okay, um, you know, love bombing. Has anyone ever given you excessive flattery or excessive gifts and then just go through the list and and and just learn it that way? So we're we know that people, not everyone's gonna read this book the same way, you know, if you're a cult survivor versus you're cult curious or you want to give it to someone who you care about, who you think might be in a cult. Um, it's all there. And I know since you're since you're halfway, you might not have seen this yet unless you uh jumped ahead. But uh we say at the beginning, use this book as it pertains to you, you know, like if if you're a cult survivor, you'll get this whole book is for you. You know, everything in this book is for you, and including these two appendixes, which some people suggested we cut out because they were very niche um specifically on how to write a cult memoir. So that might be interest interest to you because I know you're writing your book. Yes. And then also how to navigate the media. We have a section on whistleblowing and all the different ways people have whistleblowed and our guests who did that. But then we thought so many people come to us for advice about, you know, they just got out, what should they do? Should they go to the press like we did? If they did, what kind of press should they do? So we have a whole appendix just on like how to navigate the difference between podcasts, which we recommend because you can be yourself and there's no, you know, no editing. Well, some editing, but it's free flow, yes, versus like not doing live shows like Dr. Oz or live news until you're more healed because it can be super triggering and um intense and like and sound bites. Sound bites. Like you have to be really good at like boom, boom, boom. You can't be like, Well, I joined when I was five, and then I like you can't think about it. You have to be like, cults are bad. This is why, this is what it looks like.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yeah, you have you have to speak in checklists, yes. So in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

One of the reasons why we're we were super excited about that is that, and also why we self-published this one is that we know that you know, some people were looking at it going, I think you should cut that. And I said, I know you think I should cut that. I understand why you think I should cut it, but I don't care because we wanted to be able to give this to somebody like you who gets out of a cult and it all be in there, you know, it all be in one place versus like, oh, watch this podcast and listen to this doc or watch this documentary and and read these 12 books. Like it's too much.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah, I kind of feel like if you've if you're reading ours, it hasn't gotten dark necessarily in the ways that it has. If you're reading Stephen Hassen's and Yanya Lalich's, the more academic ones, you've hit something um and you need the deep dive and the deep language for it. I think ours is kind of a stopgap, if you will, and the checklist, I think too. The checklist kind of is a good antidote to you know, a lot of young people are forming their ideologies based on TikTok and not through kind of a deep, deeper understanding and coming out confidently stupid in their perspectives. And um, I think in a world where there's just a volume of information, um, and everyone has an area of vulnerability or susceptibility, the algorithm is going to find you. It's going to find your area where you're susceptible to maybe resentment and it's going to tap into those things. And if you can kind of get a checklist that goes, algorithms do this, and you go, and you can have a kind of self-awareness through a checklist of going, oh my god, I fell for that because this TikTok thing made me do whatever. I think it's a good thing to combat it. And Sarah and I always say, I'm not a very good self-promoter. Um I'm just not comfortable with it. You know, I don't, but I'm a hundred percent comfortable going up to a college parent or a high school parent saying, make sure your child reads this.

SPEAKER_05 16:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

You you know I have no problem with that.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

Yeah, no, absolutely. Another another thought that really struck me that as you say, it this serves as a stop gap here. Let me hold it up so everyone can see. There's your beautiful book. Um so you know, there there are obviously are many different books on specific cults, but for somebody in a cult, like for me, I was born into Scientology. So while I was in, or even just after I escaped and was getting out, like the thought of reading a book about Scientology being a cult felt really scary. So having this kind of mix of all these different stories, it does serve that stopgap of going, well, you know, because I I don't know about you, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but for me, a huge piece of what opened my eyes was hearing other cult experiences and then drawing parallels and going, well, wait a minute, this happened, this happened. Oh, I had that experience too, and it really did wake me up in so many ways.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

It humanizes it.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

Yeah, no, multiple times, and specifically going clear, holy hell, um, documentaries, uh, what other documentaries? Wild Wild Country, which we have some problems with, but that's a separate story. Um, but yeah, no, a hundred percent it was we were we were really able to to make that jump. And a lot of people have said that also about the vow that they were yeah, the vow's been yeah, like in the Mormon church or um what else? Um FLDS, uh well, I said that, um, Jehovah's Witnesses, all sorts of different groups that were like, oh, I saw the vow just out of curiosity, or I just watched the Tiger King and it was COVID, and then we watched the vow, and I didn't realize that I was in a cult until I could make those parallels.

SPEAKER_05 18:21

Yes. So that's what what I love about your podcast title, a little bit culty, like, okay, you know, it doesn't have to be all in necessarily, let's just slowly start opening our eyes and learning about our experience in a different perspective, you know, and taking take take back control, uh, you know, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, well, the what to your point, the control tactics and the coercive tactics um that go on in cults aren't proprietary to cults, they go on everywhere. So you don't have to be in a cult to experience the coerciveness and the control strategies that go on in cults. They can be a little bit culty.

SPEAKER_05 18:59

Yes, exactly. I love it. Yes. Okay, so um anyway, uh again, I I thought I've thoroughly enjoyed um how far I've gotten, and I will absolutely be finishing it very shortly.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Amazing. I just realized if you're just past halfway, you might not have gotten to the section about your story.

SPEAKER_05 19:21

I jumped ahead and read that section. Did we did we do it justice? Did we do it right? You did, yes. And without giving anything away, I I really laughed about um the part where you were said, Oh, I hope someone makes this a movie. Just don't cast Tom Cruise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Or cast them and hand them this book.

SPEAKER_05 19:43

Yes, exactly, for sure. I also have thoroughly enjoyed seeing um, in by my opinion, uh Nippy, you were very similar to Mark, like the the rebel, the not really all in, and Sarah, you were more like me.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Well, yeah, like the goody two shoes and all the roll caller. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

I'll say that's that's not necessarily true in the sense of not being all in. I was all in in a different way.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Yes. Yes, you just weren't as you weren't obedient, Mark wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

My my wiring, my central nervous system is different to the point where like if you're you're not gonna get me to do something I don't really want to do.

SPEAKER_06 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

And that doesn't mean, but it doesn't mean I'm not susceptible, right? For sure. So for sure. I think my I think my story is powerful because I'm that guy. And that guy is out there, the archetype that is me is out there thinking that would never happen to me with the folded arms. Well, hey, I was you, right? And I if you read my story, my hooks are are particular to me. Yes, 100%. Yeah, it it could just hit you in that moment. It's literally like lightning in a bottle, kind of because it just hit me at the right vulnerable moment. But generally speaking, I am the guy who's not a joiner, I am a little bit of an introvert and loner, and you can still have those perfect conditions happen to you where you're behind something you think is good. And it's oh yes, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

And when I say rebel, I of course, you know, Mark was in as deep as I was, he had to escape too. But it was just it's just interesting that there are different uh markers, you know, and yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

You know, it's just I I I the reason I say that is I don't I don't I think some of the time I come across as, you know, um uh it still uh didn't really happen to me. It happened to me. It happened to me in a different way. And I and I'm I'm I'm it's important for me to lean into how it happened to me so my story's that much more um powerful for other people.

Parenting After A High-Control Group

SPEAKER_05 22:00

100%. So switching gears too, another thing that w that I was struck by, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because I could really relate is an and a a a similarity we have, of course, is raising our children post-cult experience now. I'd love to hear your thoughts about that. I could obviously I've seen pieces of it in the book where you reference that. Like, of course, wanting to make sure your kids don't have any experience similar to yours. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Yeah, I mean, we we try to talk about some of the tactics in a way that like might be more relatable to them. I mean, I uh who knows what their future has in store, but you know, they're both in sports. So, for example, I think a lot of the things that can happen with um predators with grooming, you know, that's a that's a space that we have to be really careful of and teaching them things like, you know, if somebody makes you feel special and sort of singles you out and wants to do private time with you and away from us, like obviously when we drop our kids off for practices, we're not watching the whole time, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Sometimes sometimes I am.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Yeah, sometimes nobody's watching from the fence, making sure they're getting trained properly, but psycho parent. But um, other times, like, you know, they're they're in other people's hands and or you know, a sleepover or whatever. And we want our kids to feel like they are never trapped, you know, and that they can reach out to us and ask for help if um they feel uncomfortable. So obviously that's not a cult, but it's the same tactics that you know groomers use or abusers use of isolation and grooming and making feel special and love bombing and all those things. We want to make sure they understand that and have a way out. So we have like special codes for letting us know if they're uncomfortable without putting themselves on the spot, which will also change as they get older and start going to um you know parties and things like that. But in terms of groups, um, you know, we're just very um honest about our experience. And I hope that you know that our kids read the books. Um Troy's read part of this and was like really impressed and thought it was really cool. Watch this write it, watch us uh create it.

Ideology, Algorithms, And Recruiting Kids

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Um he's he'd he's reasonable. We I he I can talk with him and and I I can I can give you an example of of just like in the car rides I have with him, I'll go, well, what do you think is going on with the person there? And he'll answer it and he'll be right. Like he'll be like, Well, they they want you to think the way you want to think. I go, why do you think that's they're doing that? And he can answer them in a way that I'm like way smarter than me. Um so um I'm I'm confident he's gonna have the wherewithal to ask the right questions. I've seen how he can handle himself. Um so I'm not concerned in terms of in our communication with him is is really good, at least until you know maybe he gets a little bit internal at puberty and like no, but we encourage him to to you know to be vulnerable and all that stuff. Um we, you know, there's some the thing that I'm very concerned about is a lot of the political crossfire that our kids are in right now. Um sometimes it's at schools. We um we had a little bit of it at last school. Um and I went and kicked the tires and what was going on there. It wasn't that bad, but it was enough for me to go, you know. I don't think our kids are gonna continue to go to school here. A lot of it was more because they didn't have much of a sports program there. But there was other ideological things that were going on at the school that I just am 100% opposed to because it was telling kids what to think and what to feel and not teaching them how to think. Right. And a lot of the stuff that it was advocating for, I don't have a problem with per se, if my kid comes to those conclusions on his own and can articulate through. But if it if he's being told to do something and you can't go question those things, to me, those are the biggest red flags. And I've told my kids if you can't question something and you get pushback for asking a question, you need to pay attention to that. Our other kid's seven, we don't really get into that now, and he's got his head in puzzles and stuff like that. Maybe it'll it'll come down the road. But no, generally speaking, you know, I think the biggest concern as parents generally are sugar and iPads. And I think the algorithm online is very real. I think we have a generation, um, enough forensics of a generation to um cite the problems of the TikTok generation of kids, particularly kids on college campuses, um, confidently stupid about foreign policy and then going into quads, and it's resulted in some anti-Semitism that I wouldn't send my kids near those schools. And yeah, I'm confident when I say if your child goes to college and comes back a social activist, there's a problem.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

And it doesn't matter. You can speak to whatever content point is, and uh they're being recruited into something, yeah. Yeah, and these and these move these movements, um these movements, and I'll I can call them out by name, I think um are recruiting kids.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

Um that's why the college stuff is so important, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

And for sure, they're they're recruiting kids and they're leveraging the grievances of fringe movements to justify their existence. And you have to understand what they're doing and how they're doing it. And oftentimes they're using the group and spitting out the group when they have power. Um and that's the most dangerous thing for our kids right now. And what's at stake is um the meritocracy that a lot of people have run into gunfire to preserve. Uh, I'll put it diplomatically, because I don't particularly want to use any of my platforms to tell people which way to lean politically, because I think political the polars, polarities of both political parties are poison, and they both want you to agree to go leverage, they want to leverage your goodness and your morality to go really accelerate their agenda for power. And it doesn't really matter who you're aligned with. Um, and that's a sad commentary too. And I think our kids, we need a generation to come up and understand that's what's going on so they can not participate in it, and spot it and say, Yeah, I see I see what you're doing, I see what you're trying to do with my goodness and trying to leverage it.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

And just to add to something what Nippy was just saying about being able to question and you know, not just be obedient soldiers, that's also hard as parents because we also want them to listen to us. Oh, for sure, right? So that's so that this is like uh I find this is like a real delicate balance. We're like, we're quite like question authority and don't just be obedient, but brush your teeth, you know. Like we're winning.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

We're still winning.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's a hard balance. Like, I don't want them to be obedient like I was. I want them to understand why they're doing everything they're doing, but I also want them to like respect us and do what I ask them to do when I ask them to do it. So it's right.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

That's why that's why I think sports is such a great training ground for kids. Um, and if you can't do sports, I think stuff like jujitsu, martial arts are are a good area because they're constantly dealing with reality and they're constantly dealing with measurement, and they're constantly dealing, like you can't really subvert those things.

unknown 29:07

True.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

And if you do try to subvert those things, it's it's blatant.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

But martial arts is also so ripe for abuse. What do you mean, like there's like I love martial arts, I love what my kids have learned in jujitsu and taekwondo and judo and whatnot, but the systems are also set up for people to be abused because it's it well, it's like anything where you're good you're joining and you're asking.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I mean, some of them are pretty standardized, some of them are great.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

I'm just saying yeah, no, I've I've seen examples of that too. I I I I agree. I mean, it's it's like anything, you know, and and you cover this in the book too. Like the the way that they can present is oh, this is your family and the love bombing and the this and the this and the this. And so, yes, there's uh it's just you know, those red flags you got to watch out for and listen to your gut, like you talk about and follow your intuition and don't shut down that that voice in the back of your head, make it stronger by listening to it.

SPEAKER_04 30:05

Yeah, yeah, and and asking for opinions outside of whatever it is, if you're not sure. Yes, a lot of times people go into the group and like, oh maybe I'm feeling a bit like I don't know if I want to do this, and the and then the leader or the person you're given the authority to, which you have to if you're gonna learn a new skill.

unknown 30:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

If you're entering, if you're entering a dojo, you're saying, I know less than you, master, teach me.

unknown 30:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

Oh, I yeah, for sure. And I also love that you covered, oh, research, um, research the group, not only the first top results that are the paid results, but also look up lawsuits, speak to former members, you know, all of that. I was like, brilliant. Yes, absolutely. Those are really, really solid um pointers.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Thank you, Claire. We wrote this book also like for our the ghosts of ourselves. Like if we had had this book before we joined Exium, obviously we wouldn't have joined because we would have seen the red flags. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

If we had the book if I knew I was gonna meet you, I'd still join.

SPEAKER_05 31:05

Oh, Dippy. Oh, that's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Yeah, wait a minute, hold on a second. I'll assass and get back to you. No, um, and then also if we wrote it for ourselves in the in the when we were in to go to give us options for leaving um and to maybe leave in a different way, although I think we'd left in the best way we could. My only regret, and I don't think this is in the book, is that, and not like I can turn back time, but I was so angry that obviously we rallied the people that believed the anger and and weren't as indoctrinated, but but the people that were more indoctrinated than me were able to look at my anger and just deny what I was saying because I was so angry.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Which is one of the reasons we stayed in originally, because some of the people that sounded the alarm, I think in 2009, were so unhinged when they left and told their unhinged before we went. So we filtering for their unhingedness, and when they were unhinged, subsequently what they said we didn't buy it, we thought was informed by their unhinged behavior, and and it was, but we used that rather than validate their perspective to dismiss it.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

So that's no we we had completely had that similar scenario, and to me that really, really speaks to the the the way that cults use labels to control and manipulate you because you just slap a label on it in your mind and go, well, that's uh and then really you you tune out any other input because it's coming through that label, it's fascinating the parallels to me.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

What the cults are really are really effective at is curating your indoctrination and then curating the potential objections and then curating how you respond to them, and like it's a very well oiled machine in terms of like the lot of barriers to get in, like rites of indoctrination, and the barriers to get out are set up for you as well. Um, so it takes a lot of understanding of what they're doing, um, which is highly intelligent, which a lot of people don't really understand. These are highly intelligent and highly manipulative people.

SPEAKER_06 33:18

Completely.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

And you have to under you can't underestimate it. Um, you can't underestimate their malevolence. And one of the things that I always emphasize in any of these interviews is that a lot of those people understand what they're doing and what it's like to manipulate another human being who's a good person, and you don't have the understanding of their malevolence because you don't have it in you, so you can't project it into their psychology. And that is their that is their biggest advantage when they're setting these things up and they're going about their business. So if you can at least just consider a malevolent mind is at play here, and then go into situations just with that caveat and to understand it, you're just more informed. You can protect yourself better, you have a little bit more armor on. And you may, you may make some mistakes with that armor, but better to err on the side of caution than spend 10 years in a cult.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

Yes, completely for sure. Were you gonna say something, Sarah?

SPEAKER_04 34:15

She always is gonna say yes, but it was like from a few points ago, just what you were saying, the the similarities were shocking. And I would just, you know, I think both Scientology and Nexium really did a number on our emotional um bandwidth slash connection to our emotions. And I I think that, you know, from what I've heard is that if you're reactive, you're you know, coming from your I don't know all the terms in Scientology, but you're not like steady and calm and that invalidates, yeah, basically invalidates like see there's no room for saying for being upset about something. No, there's no room for outrage, right? There's no room for like yeah, next thing they say, well, you have a vested interest, which means it's based on a fear, it's not based on reality. So it's not like there's no there's nothing to to explore there, right? So um yeah, it just is it is so fascinating.

SPEAKER_05 35:05

Yeah, no, it's so fascinating. Again, that's another thing that struck me, which we we talked about when you and I did an interview about your book, Sarah. The parallels in the the language piece specifically is it's so um insidious how the language makes you start doing their work for them in your mind. Um and and there are so many parallels, similar language, specifically between Nexium and Scientology, of course. It just it's mind-boggling to me.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Well, even what you just said too, you know, as you're saying it, it's like it's such a well-oiled machine that they actually have verbiage and language that you're going to use to facilitate your staying, leaving, and to keep you in. So it's it it really is, to your point, really insidious because they develop a language that everyone can agree upon, and their language is designed to snare you.

SPEAKER_05 36:11

Completely. You have a critical thought and you go, oh, I'm you dismiss it. That's uh black PR, black propaganda, and I'm uh, you know, I'm just critical. That means I have overts and withholds, and I, you know, and it even prevents you eventually from even voicing it in your mind, let alone saying the words out of your mouth, you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Yeah, that's intelligence, if you ask me. That's highly intelligent and highly manipulative. You can't dismiss that as like, oh, it's a fucking excuse my language, it's a cult and they would never fall for it.

SPEAKER_06 36:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

You know, and if you and and that's it at its extreme. So think about what it looks like on its most subtle level when it wants you to buy something or it wants you to, you know, to believe this cause or get you to do this. You know, by the time you're in, it's extreme, but it starts softly. There's a soft indoctrination, and you've got to understand what that looks like and sounds like.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Still, even if you've gone through it, like I catch myself going like, you know, so it's it's a it's a muscle, you know, you have to like go, okay, or at least consider it.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

Yeah.

Trust, Boundaries, And Seeing Red Flags

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Right. So yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

I'm I'm curious to know the answer to this because I know my answer. So when you got out and started to wake up and realize, like, did you go through a period of just kind of uh like how did you process trust and um awareness of other similarities and other organizations?

SPEAKER_04 37:43

I mean, I think our first little while was we just weren't even interested in any sort of gathering, like any sort of get together, even like I mean, parties, people that we know is one thing, but I I joined this like women's networking thing, and we all sat around in a circle and shared like who we were and like what our goals were and stuff. And I was like, ugh, like I knew I knew it was fine. I knew in my mind I knew it was fine, but my body was really uncomfortable, for example. Um, and I I you know, we're eight years out now. Um, and I think it's better every now and then at I mean, I think I think we're both pretty general, like I still am a trusting person. Um, and we've also been bitten, you know, what's the word? Um not bitten in the butt, but like I we've we've missed some red flags again. We we that was what I was trying to say, we've nipped it in the bud sooner. Yeah, like we haven't been fully taken advantage of it.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

We have a process, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

But I think there was a couple times where we like started working with some people that we just missed the red flags because I mean essentially, yeah. They were it's hard like love bombing is tricky because when you meet somebody that you really connect with, it feels the same. So we felt like we found people that we really connected with, and then things went sideways, and I was like, Oh, I miss, and I went when I looked back, it's like I missed these. I saw that I I I I was able to pinpoint the things that I missed because I was caught up in the excitement of it all and feeling good that I felt a synergy with people. Um, so you know, we're still gonna make mistakes in life though. So I don't know if it's I feel like we nipped it before it was really bad, but we yeah, we missed some flags because for sure.

SPEAKER_05 39:27

No, my my version of that is, and you know, I've read many books and continue to read books, obviously, but also through therapy. And um, I remember distinctly this conversation with my therapist after I went through a specifically very difficult time period post-Scientology. And uh she was like, Why, why did you let this person so close to you? And and I was like, Well, they have similar trauma and experiences, so I assumed their intentions were the same as mine, and I didn't even look beyond that. It was kind of a a blind spot of just, you know, and and of course, you know, every person's cult recovery path is different. And I'm certainly not going to judge that. I've made mistakes and, you know, still learning to process, especially having been born into Scientology, it's quite the unravel that has to occur. But um, that that question really hit me like, yeah, okay, uh, I need to change things.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah, you bring up a good point. I mean, optically, when you meet someone, generally speaking, you accept the persona that they present.

SPEAKER_06 40:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Right. And even if I get like this person's inauthentic, they're not really, I'll go, okay, I get it. You're being social, it's how you navigate your world. I'm not condemning them for being maybe inauthentic or whatever, but I'll accept it until you have reason not to.

SPEAKER_06 40:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

And that's mostly how people go about their day or their world, and then you look at their wake and they may have done this, and this may be a pattern in their life. You don't project malevolence necessarily. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't think most people are malevolent. I think it's a small portion. So it's it's just something you have to consider though.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Yeah, knowing it's out there is important.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

And and to your point about the trusting, like, you know, it's someone asked me this, and and I I've kind of found like over a course of time, I've learned to trust more or more the same, just with a little bit more wisdom. Yes, and a little bit more vetting. And so my trustworthiness has always been, I think, aired to the side of I trust too much. Now I kind of do it uh the same, just with a little bit more wisdom, because I'm basically optimistic about people. I understand that there's a small demographic of malevolent people, and those are the people that are kind of starting cults and getting good people to do their bidding.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

Yeah, or or the serial killers.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Yes, and then and then that's a smaller demographic. So, you know, it's uh, but they can do a lot of damage. Um, as for you know, joining and and those sorts of things, I've kind of reverted back to how I was before all this. I didn't join anything at the most stuff is bullshit, you know, and I didn't have the time. So um I've never been much of a joiner. I didn't I didn't join a fraternity in college, and everyone's like, You weren't in a fraternity. I was like, I could. I just couldn't. I needed I need my own time, space. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

I also did a pendulum swing of so many years of Scientology, Scientological judging of people, like through that language, through that lens, that when I got out, I was like, I'm that's I'm I'm done with all of that, which you know, but to your point, like, well, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have your intuition, you have your gut. There are things that, you know, okay, you don't have to condemn somebody, but do you want to associate with X, Y, Z? You know, do you want to be part of that? What is that all about? And that whole learning curve of working through that, at least for me, was a huge part of my recovery process. You know, as you're talking and as you're moving.

SPEAKER_04 43:08

Okay, Nippy's got a P. Can I keep going or should we bust?

SPEAKER_05 43:10

Yes, no, you can keep going. I I mean, or or we can't. No, no, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

No, no, I'm fine. I'm just gonna say, and I think that this might help a lot of people because uh as as Nippy was talking, I was like, what is this for me? Because what it is, I think, is that I still trust people generally, like I let people into my life, but I think what's changed, and this goes back to the people pleasing, you know, kind of goody two shoes, like if something happened in the cult in Nexium, I I was really good at at like dismissing it or explaining it or like, you know, even gaslighting myself as if there was a reason that happened, you know. And I think that as a people pleaser or accommodator, whatever you want to call it, out in the real world, never mind cults, you know, if somebody does something to me or just behaves in a way that that I don't like. I'm I'm more apt to kind of forgive them. This is this is like before and then even as I'm still as I'm still unraveling. Whereas now I'm trying to like let it go. Like if somebody doesn't treat me well, then that's it.

SPEAKER_05 44:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

You know, like I don't I'm not giving them uh uh you know multiple chances.

SPEAKER_05 44:23

It's over No, it says more about them than it says about you at the end of the day, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:28

Yes. So I'm trying to like believe people when they show me who they are.

SPEAKER_05 44:34

Yes, oh my gosh, that is that is my mantra that I'm like, yes, hurt people, hurt people, and when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Yeah, and that's that's that's so I I'm I'm it's not necessarily that I'm gonna cut the tie fully because sometimes they're even family or that like you they're part of your social circle and you can't not relate with them, but I'm not gonna let them into my inner circle.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Yes, learning to set boundaries is is also so so important. Learning to set boundaries, yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

One of my favorite quotes is from this uh girl Elise we interviewed about two years ago, and she's like, I set boundaries to keep the relationship, not not end them. And I was like, I'm gonna use that. I really, I really like that. Yes, but I'm also at a point too where I'm not gonna yield to someone else's version of the world. Yeah, so I'm pretty quick to kind of like I'm almost abrasive about it sometimes. And it's it's yeah, no, sorry. Yeah, I get a little, I I get a little res I get a little resentful, then I recognize like, you know, that's kind of that's on me. I I I they're not being they're not being mean, right? They're not being aggressive, they're just kind of like, you know, it's when they make blanket statements and I'll go, no, this is how I think, and you know, I'll communicate that like that's not how yes.

SPEAKER_05 46:01

Though it's interesting to me as you're talking that sometimes that version of events uh and your natural reaction to go, well, wait a minute, no, no, no. Even that engagement sometimes is just intended to lure you in and keep it like dis disintegrate the boundary that you've set, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

And to normalize their version of the world, and and really what I'm what I'm setting is is I'm not that's not the version of the world that I'm in. And um that's all. I mean, I don't, you know, um yeah, yeah, for sure.

Looking Back On NXIVM And Leaving

SPEAKER_05 46:40

Okay, another another yeah, another thought that um I wanted to ask or question thing that struck me. So you were talking about your, you know, pre-cult or cult person, uh, you know, your ghosts of yourselves that this book was also intended for. So looking back, uh if someone were to tell you as you were getting into Nexium or or even in the early years or mid-the experience that you'd be here now doing what you're doing, what would your reaction have been?

SPEAKER_04 47:16

I mean, that it would have been so shocking, especially that we were so against Keith, you know. And at the same time, I feel like it kind of makes sense. Like it it it's uh really, yeah, the same thing. Like it's it's we're so we're so we're still the same people. We still want to help people, we're still trying to make the world better.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

What if I always had this what if this is bullshit? Question. Not and I didn't think it was Keith. I just thought, like, what if that what if me spending my time trying to do this mission and and help people with their goals is just what if it's not really working? Like, and I started looking at people around Keith who were on his intense goal programs, and there was no one in the organization that I felt like I wanted to be like, which is why I left the first time. I don't know if you knew this. I had two I kind of two stints from 2001 to 2003. I was a coach.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

I learned that in the book. I was I was like, oh my goodness, wow.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

So I I left thinking, like, there's no one here that's doing what I want to do. I was 27, 28, and I was like, there's no one I really looked up to, and there was no one that was really that successful out in the world in the any sort of meaningful way that I wanted to aspire to. And I thought, well, you know, maybe just this goals part is the good part. Me looking at myself, evolving certain limiting beliefs makes me more optimal in my world. I can do that. I can use the tools, I can use the weights at the gym to be stronger, but I don't have to go be a trainer.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

And then I got called back because you know, you read it. But my point is simply that like I kind of felt like there was aspects of it of like if this is such a success program, why is every all the are the coaches poor? Yeah, why are they all struggling to like, you know, and so there was always a little bit of that. And how long can I do this? Yeah, you know, there's things there's things that there's things that I want. I have a kid now, so there's a lot of things that I think were facilitating our eventual exit, but not in the way that we thought, and not in the way that we thought we'd have zero relationship with the organization and it would be destroyed or anything like that. It would just felt like, yeah, you know, we used to do this. We're we teach on weekends now or something like that. It's kind of where I felt like it may have headed. Like a gradual departure versus yeah, but also like we were already working on projects outside of it. We had kind of there was this general feeling of like, I kind of feel like this has run its course. I don't mind teaching it, I don't mind like that's kind of the inertia, I think, of where our lives were going. And we weren't in Albany, so we weren't near them. We were in Vancouver and we had a three-year-old, and like we were looking to like, you know, that was gonna get a lot of our life force, still gets our life force, and there's really, I think I speak for you when I say this, nothing that was gonna get in the way of how we were gonna raise our kids for sure.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Like for both of Sarah and I think we were super aware of all that at the time, like it wasn't really until retrofit. Well, I mean, it's how we spent our time. Yeah, we were pulling away, we just didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

And Sarah and I, like, I mean, I think I speak for Sarah to this, like, there's really not much more in my life that's more fun than being around my kids, raising them and watching them grow. Like, I like, and I didn't know I'd love it this much. I mean, I really like I'm really I'm I really love like doing the podcast, and then oh, I get to go hang with my kids. Yeah, and I've got about five to six more golden years with them before they're like, screw you, dad, I know everything. I'm joining a cult.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

Oh my gosh. No, they won't. No, they won't.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

No, they won't, but you know what I mean, right? I'm gonna get this right, I'm gonna hit this out of the park. And I'm yeah, I I I like doing it and I like that we have something that can supplement it so we can do it.

SPEAKER_05 50:54

Yeah. I when my kids were real little, I talked, I called into the uh Dr. Laura show, Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Um because I was trying to process like what do I tell my kids when they realize they have no grandparents in their lives? And I had had that experience when I was three of losing a parent to Scientology and blamed it on myself. It's one of my earliest memories. So I that was just like a real conflict for me. And Dr. Laura uh was just said outright that just always be honest and truthful with your kids and um and they will never go down that path. So, in an age-appropriate fashion, you know, I've always just told my kids, like when my oldest son was seven or eight, one day he turned to me and he said, Mom, when did your mom die? And uh I I mean it took it was like massive gut punch, but I'm like, son, she's she's not dead. She's just in a in our organization that is destroys families. And hopefully one day she wakes up and she'll talk to us, you know. Anyway, it's just like, ooh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:01

Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 52:03

Anyway, sorry, didn't didn't mean to go down that dark of a rabbit hole. It's intense.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

It's well, it's important to like, you know, you have to share stories about how bad this can get.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

Yeah. And the impact it has on kids for sure. Age appropriate stuff is it's how you learn.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

I mean it's key. Humanity keeps getting these lessons because we're not pivoting to them. So yeah, there you go. You know, we gotta we gotta get it out there.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

And you remember when Troy I uh he must have been in second grade or something. He drew he drew a picture of a man. It's a it's a this is Keith behind bars. My parents put him there.

SPEAKER_05 52:41

Oh my gosh, that is amazing. Doesn't that not just yeah, when you say that I'm like, oh my gosh, you know what? We've got a picture of that somewhere. We should we should make a post out of it.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

We should.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

We should all go visit him one day.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

So you want to go visit Keith Reneri with us in prison?

SPEAKER_05 52:59

You want my honest answer? Like, no, if you ask me to do it, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

But like I won't do it.

SPEAKER_04 53:07

I'd go with a would you see you want to bring a pizza and eat it in front of him behind the other side of the glass?

SPEAKER_02 53:12

I've spent too much time with yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:14

We can we can take a copy of your book and read it and just have a like cult QA and like oh I should we should mail him.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Mail him one.

SPEAKER_05 53:23

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_05 53:26

There you go. See, when uh cult survivors come together, all kinds of brilliant ideas come out of it.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Just sign it 120.

SPEAKER_05 53:35

Yeah, right? Hashtag 120.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Hashtag 120.

SPEAKER_05 53:38

Oh my god, that's what's what's 120. 120 years in prison. Oh, oh, of course. See, I was like, which are we talking January 20th, 120? There you go. See you you can you can say see you in whatever the year is.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

That's good. But but but here's my favorite part of his by 120 press.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

Trace 120 is the name of our Trace is Troy Nase.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

My favorite uh part of the sentence is that he gets five years probation when he's out.

SPEAKER_05 54:09

So 125, really.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah, yeah. Well, he's got that probation, you know, to make sure he phys rehabilitates back in society.

SPEAKER_05 54:17

There you go. After 120 years, you would need to get 120 years to think about it. Yeah, anyway, amazing world. Seriously, and that obviously your son, I mean, that's just beautiful that he recognizes that. He recognizes what you guys accomplished and your bravery and courage in doing so. That's just really and we got a little lucky.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

We had, you know, we were Sarah and I were lucky to have um families to lean on. Um, you know, we were peripheral to when the bomb went off. We had shrapnel in us, it didn't go up off in our lap. So we were less we had less to recover from, I think, in order to get back on our feet and put language to the story. So and then we got we made a lot of good decisions in a really short amount of time that led us to whatever happened for whatever reasons. And yeah, I'm still trying to figure a lot of that out too, because not a lot of people see justice in this, and then not a lot of people see justice as quickly as we saw justice. And if there's if the current headlines are any indication of how our justice system works, it makes our story look that much more amazing.

SPEAKER_04 55:24

So and it set precedent, like one day.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

So I feel good to be a part of that and throw my punch.

SPEAKER_05 55:40

Yeah, no, seriously, it's it's inspiring and reinvigorating and just so so important. And I will I I would also like to say, too, just hats off to you both for weathering the storm of living through a cult and keeping your relationship intact because I know that that is no small feat.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Thanks.

SPEAKER_05 56:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

We learn to communicate in the cult.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

If we're gonna get one thing right out of this, it's like we learn to communicate with the smattering of gaslighting.

SPEAKER_04 56:16

So we have to make sure that we communicate purely without, you know.

SPEAKER_05 56:21

But so many relationships are destroyed by cults. I'm sure you've seen that many, many times on the podcast. It's a statistical anomaly for to survive that and come out the other side. And, you know, of course, you know, as I always say, show me a perfect relationship and I'll show you a perfect liar. Of course, that's not the human experience. Nonetheless, you've you've made it this far. So I just wanted to say hats off to you both, because I I do understand it's it's it's something.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

Oh, it is, yeah. And for sure, they tried to drive a wedge between us while we were in it, yes, and then destroy us as we were leaving. Yes. Um, we heard a lot of stories from people who stayed in after us who were around the leadership and they were like trying to dig up dirt and like trying to find out find out like what our that was one of the more shocking things.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Um to actually have verified. Like I kind of suspected it was going on, and then I had a friend who was playing both sides and saying he was talking. He's like saying he was talking, saying he was talking to like the other side who's playing both sides, yeah. And he came to me and he said, Claire went with me on a walk the other day and she asked me what dirt I had on you. And I was like, wow, like it's one thing to hear it and then to have it kind of like experience it and have it just hit, like, oh, this is like this is like like I knew it was it's so much more real to have it happen to you.

SPEAKER_05 57:50

I can't I'm sure you know, I'm sure you know it's like seeing the underbelly of the beast that you had an idea was real, idea, yeah, but you hadn't met the the beast and look had to look it in the eye and go, yeah, for sure. I had that experience during our lawsuit going through deposition, and like, wow, this is it's one thing something that you know about in the background that happens to SPs and you know it's over there. It's another when you're living that experience yourself and going, Wow.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

It's a gut punch. Yes, it's a gut punch. You go, oh my god, they're willing to do this, especially and you're not, yeah, and you're not. Yeah, and that's like even when it was done to me, I was like, Well, what am I gonna do? Like fight back and do like get into the mud slinging. Like, I don't I'm not that's not, I don't want to do that. I can't, that's not my life force, it's theirs, and they and they're and they've they've they're committed to it, and it's like, oh shit, this is real, yeah, absolutely, and people are gonna believe it. Like, people like people don't know you are gonna believe it, and that has effects, and they know that and they're playing that. So it's just it's a weird thing to be on the other end of viscerally. Like I know it goes on, but anyway.

Rapid Fire, Healing, And Meaning-Making

SPEAKER_05 59:06

Absolutely. Okay, do you mind um indulging me in uh a rapid fire section? Sure.

SPEAKER_06 59:12

Oh, yeah, go.

SPEAKER_05 59:13

So um I'll give you the question and maybe you just decide who goes first, but you both give your answers separately. Does that work? Okay, here's the first one. Yeah, one word you would use to describe Nexium now. Defunct. Nice, sniffy.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Done, done.

SPEAKER_05 59:33

Done. There we go. Okay. Biggest myth about cult survivors that they're dumb.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

Yeah, they're dumb.

SPEAKER_05 59:42

Yeah, good one. I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Or it's an intelligence thing.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

Yeah, yeah. Well, same same thing, like all of them. Weaker dump. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, here's the next one.

SPEAKER_02 59:52

July helps them.

SPEAKER_05 59:53

For sure. Uh something people get wrong about healing.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:00

That it has an endpoint.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:02

Good, yeah, agreed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

Um a specific endpoint, like that it that it has like a pres that like it has a set time. It's different for everybody. It's not a prescription. It's everyone's on their own journey. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:14

Like it's an item on your to-do list. Okay, that's done now.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

I'm done with that. Did you say the biggest comes in waves? Like you might heal and then this is no longer rapid. Sorry, you get knocked down.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:28

Okay, here's the next one. Hardest part of writing. Oh, yeah, yeah. You just deflected.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

What was the uh the biggest misconception about healing?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:39

Something people get wrong about healing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

I think some people don't think they can heal. I think I think you can. And time, time is a feature of it. It's in fact the biggest feature of it. So time.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:55

Good one. Hardest part of writing this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

Uh I love and hate this question.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:08

Honestly, I think it's just the constraints on our time. Like it you really have to get into an inertia. I'm sure you know this with writing. And like I need I needed like three to four hours and just rarely had three to four hours because there was always stuff to do for our podcast, for life, for the house, for the boys. Um, that it was just really difficult to keep it moving. I mean, I joke that it was, you know, it's it's hard to write a book on your own, let alone with somebody else, and also our, you know, yeah, raise a kid and sleep in the same room and clean in the same bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:38

And yes. Oh, you were just doing a podcast with me.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Uh knowing when you're done.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:46

Yeah, good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Like, oh I wrote this whole thing out. I'm like, I think I got the point. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:52

Yeah. Okay, last one.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

I don't know why the question just made me cry. I don't even have an answer yet. But I I feel empowered that we did it ourselves without anyone else's. Um, I mean, many people helped us, but I mean we didn't publish traditionally, we published it on our own.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:15

And um, that feels really good because as you know, from being in a cult, you don't have control and to have full autonomy about what the cover looked like and what was going to be included and how many words it was gonna be. People gave us input, but we made all the final calls, and that was feels really good to get to the finish line and feel very satisfied with that process.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:38

Yes, awesome, Nippy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

Um, I remember saying something like seven years ago about we want to turn our story into content and wisdom. And I think doing this and doing it in the format and how we've done it is I think we just hit it out of the park. Like I think our story and our content is wisdom. We've been able to add hundreds, 300 over episodes to that narrative and put out work that we can just go, okay, this happened. This is how Sarah and I collectively handled it and pivoted, pivoted based on our moral makeup, what we think is right, how we went about it. And that's my best shot at writing a wrong and then turning it into something else so it moves, nudges humanity in a direction so they don't have to do it. And if you do happen to find yourself in it, here's how you can handle it. And we added to the fabric of morality or something, you know, noble like that. But I really do feel like I can feel it when I'm talking about it. Like, dude, we did it and we and we did it at personal cost, you know, we lost a lot in this, and you know, I can almost say it's worth it, you know, to have a situation like that happen to myself, turn it into something like this, have a beautiful wife, have two great kids, uh, be on the other end thriving of it. I didn't know that that was gonna happen, you know, and I was scared. And you know, I'd never been in a lot of the situations I'd been, I'd never been in a situation of really looking internally and thinking, am I gonna have to use violence to get out of this? So those were like places I went and found out I'm not that person, found out, you know, um because I didn't know, like, and part of me still doesn't. Like, do you know what I mean? But I never thought I'd be in that internal struggle of going, dude, I this is this is someplace I never thought I'd be. Right. And to to put it into this and and kind of feel like it's done in a lot of ways. Um feels great.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:45

Yep, no, absolutely. One of my favorite sentiments is our past doesn't define us, what we do here and now does. And you guys have both done an incredible job of sharing wisdom and education to help people recognize this form of just control and the the nasty evil part of humanity that is easy to get tricked by. So thank you both for your amazing work. Again, I'll link to this book.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:15

Get a copy of it, everybody. It's a really good read. And um, just thank you both for your work and for sticking to the to the course. And you know, it's just amazing to have you both in the cult recovery space. So I'm super, super powerful.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:32

We we stand on the shoulders of people who came before us. Speaking of which, that's you guys, for sure. So, and hopefully we'll be the same to someone else, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:41

Should we mention who the book's dedicated to?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Yeah, of course we should. Yes, please.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:45

Oh my gosh, you're giving me goosebumps, you're gonna make me cry, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

That was a year ago, roughly.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

Because we we were finishing it the first time, just after we went to Mike's memorial.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

I came back and said we're donating this to Mike Rinder, whose legacy.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:03

I hope he's enjoying this conversation right now. He's in our hearts. He lives on through us and the work that we do, but 100%. It was a beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

It's yeah, it's it's an honor to do that. It's an honor to have met him.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:18

Yeah. No, absolutely. He he loved you both dearly. I will always remember that day we met in Vancouver before we were going on our it was a cruise for Ark and I's 30th wedding anniversary when we met you both. And I instantly was like, wow, these are awesome people.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Likewise.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:36

Felt the same.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

I didn't. My only regret is I didn't know your story at the time. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

So that was a total. We got to know you backwards, Claire. We were like Claire and Mark, and then we go watch. We go, wait, were those the two people we just met?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:51

It's felt better that way because it would have been all weird and fangirly.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

That's what no, it was better because not for that reason, because that's just a not my jam, but but for the reason that it's there's a lot of heavy pieces to it, and I loved that our meeting was through our mutual friendship with Mike, and therefore it was joyful. And you know, the rest, yeah, the the other pieces could come afterwards, and that's totally fine. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

And they have, and they have, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:18

Thank you so much, Claire. Yes, thank you both for joining me. I really appreciate it, and we'll talk soon. You bet. See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Zenu, Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology, in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you could click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.