When Hope Becomes a Trap with Anne Gollert Hill - Scientology Stories #58

One phone call can change your life, and not always in the way you think. My friend Anne Gollert Hill joined Scientology at 27, because she was in a raw, vulnerable stretch of life where she wanted answers fast. We talk honestly about how grief, shame, and big dreams can make a “helpful” promise feel like a lifeline, and how Scientology recruitment often works by timing, not theology.

Anne walks us through the exact steps that lured her in: a friendly referral to a “nutritional counselor” who quietly used the tone scale, the handoff to a field auditor, the infamous personality test and graph evaluation, and the moment Dianetics auditing felt like instant relief. From there, the Bridge to Total Freedom turns into a sales roadmap: packages, pressure, and the pitch that the next level fixes everything. We also get into the real-world consequences, including credit card debt, sunk cost fallacy, and how training routines like TRs and TR0 bullbait can condition people to accept degradation and control.

Then the story shifts into Scientology’s internal machine: staff contracts, love bombing, purification rundown extremes, invasive clearances, and an accelerated pull into Int management. Anne shares what it’s like to land at Gold Base, end up in central marketing, and write official magazines under relentless micromanagement, all while being told to hide David Miscavige’s role even when everyone inside knows he runs it all.

Listen, then share this with someone who still thinks “only gullible people join cults,” and subscribe, rate, and leave a review to help more people find these Scientology stories.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Hello and welcome back to the channel. I am your host for today, Claire Headley, and this will be another episode of Scientology Stories. Without further ado, I'm going to bring on my guest for today, my very special friend Anne Gollert Hill. Welcome to the channel. Yay!

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hi, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Hello, you too. I know, absolutely. And before we get into it, I will would like to uh, you know, we'll uh we'll explain uh and talk about your story and our intersections, uh, I guess you would call it. Um, but I would also like to say at the outset that in the video description, I will link to your Substack Anne, uh, your TikTok, which we'll talk about. And um, and I'm so excited for your upcoming memoir. Yeah. Um, so before we talk about that though, do you want to just give us an overview of what we'll be talking about today in terms of your history?

First Meeting And The Grammar Course

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Well, an overview. That's interesting. Yes. I mean, I joined, I didn't grow up in Scientology. I joined when I was 27. And I joined the C org uh a few years later, and I went straight up to Int management and I met you. Uh the first time I met you, you were still a little thing. You were young.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yes, I think by my recollection, was that 1993?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, that's when I joined up. That's when I went to Int. Yeah. That's what I thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Uh and I you were my key to life course supervisor.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yes. In the course. I know, right? Oh, we'll we'll talk about that later because I have I have so many thoughts to share because because you I will say from the get-go that my memories of you are so vivid because you were like this colorful, beautiful, rambunctious person that stuck out like a sore thumb in that hellhole. I know. My goodness. I mean, I loved I loved my time with you, even if it was doing a stupid uh course that was a waste of time because Hubbard had to, or not even Hubbard, actually. That course was not even written by Hubbard, but it was his idea to rewrite grammar, because you know, I mean, why not? Right?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Oh, why not? And how many years did I have to undo all of that when I was started writing again? It was like, oh, no, but it's this way, isn't it? No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

So confusing. I know. I know, and I I as a child I loved grammar and the English language and all that. Yeah. So I had the same, it's like make sure brain creak trying to change everything and then change it back.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

But no, I got a degree in linguistics. I love languages. And then uh I went up there and I had to relearn everything. And I remember, I'm just gonna tell you this one little thing because it's an aside. I remember when uh David Miscavige was talking to me about something. I don't know, trying to figure out why I wrote a bad article again. Who knows? But we were talking about something, and I and he said, You went to college? I said, Yeah, I have a degree in linguistics. He goes, Oh, that's your problem. What an ass. Right. But anyway.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Yes. Okay, so and and so again for overview purposes, so you got in at age 27, and how many years were was your, you know, whatever you want to, I wouldn't say career, that's the wrong word.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I was in till 47.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Okay, so 20 years in in Scientology, most of which was in the C organization.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Last majority. Yes. Most of it at Int Management, and then when I got kicked to the curb, I went to FLEG.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Okay. So we'll talk about that because that's where our paths diverged then. That's right. So um I would like to just share with everyone, and I know you'll agree with me. So even though technically I've known you since 1993, um, you know, obviously it well, maybe it's not obvious, but in the time, so 1993, and then I escaped in 2005. So in all that time, I knew basically nothing about you.

unknown 4:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And I knew nothing about you.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

We weren't allowed to talk.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

No, I know, exactly. We were um, you know, strangers in a strange world, right?

unknown 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Exactly. Yeah. So um, if you don't mind, I would love to start with just hearing for you know directly from you your story of how you got in in the first place, because it is unusual. Um, as I mean, not unusual. What makes your your story somewhat unique is as you said, you got in at the age of 27 already having a degree and and other things. So would you share that with me to start? Sure. Okay.

A High Achiever Hits Bottom

SPEAKER_01 5:25

So uh, you know, I was always an overachiever, one of those people did great in school, got my degree, was gonna go to uh graduate school and get uh masters, and then I was gonna go to the UN. I had all these plans, and then I met a guy, and I ended up scrapping all those plans and pissing my parents off and moving to San Francisco. And then I divorced him two years later.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Sorry, and I should have asked you this moving to San Francisco from where? Oh, from uh the Orange County.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Oh I grew up in Canada, but then we ended up in Orange County when I was like 14. Oh, okay. I went to high school there, I went to UCLA for school, and then I moved to San Francisco. I love San Francisco, but he was a real controlling person. And so I didn't see it at first. My parents certainly did, but you know, when you're that young, I was like 22 and I was gonna do my own thing. I didn't care. Yes. So so I divorced him, and then I was having a uh an affair with my boss who was married and 10 years older than me, and that went on for three years, four years. I could not get out of it. I was also doing a lot of drugs because my ex-husband had turned me on to cocaine. I'd never done drugs in high school, never. In college, I smoked pot. And but then afterwards, and then when I got into this relationship, my whole life was basically falling apart at this point. I was always like the best at everything. And so I could always handle my life, and then all of a sudden, my life was going down the tubes, and I was looking for answers. And when you're your most vulnerable, that's when they get you 100%. And I was vulnerable. And smart and vulnerable is a deadly combination. For that's a that's a perfect storm, you know? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

You're right. That's a really good point, and it's very well stated. Um, because there are a lot of people that probably actually represents the adults that I know that got in as adults. It certainly re represents my mom, how she got in. I mean, she was 17, but you know, it's like smart and in a really bad space. You're right. It's the perfect um prey for Scientology, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

100%. And not only that, idealistic. Like I always thought I was gonna do something big to save the world. I just did. Something in me thought that as a little kid. Who knew why?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

And you're doing it now, my friend. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

But they sucked me in, man. They promised me all this, you know. Oh, you're you know, these are the aims of Scientology. And I was like, Oh, that sounds good, right? Because they do sound good, yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, the the of course that they have the hook that um, you know, it doesn't don't ask too many questions, as we now know. Yeah, um, don't try to insert logic, but you're right, on the cover, it sounds like wonderful things. Oh, we can help, we help people, we're working to make the world a better place and all these. So, anyway, but back to your story. Keep going. I'm I'm fascinated. I'm loving this.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

So I was having a very hard time, and it was, I think it was a Super Bowl party where I I pulled my friend aside. She was also my dealer, but that's you know, whatever. Neither aside, and she said, I said to her, because I was losing it. I said, I just don't know what's happening in my life. I have no direction, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I could do a lot of things, but I just feel like I've ruined everything. And she looked at me and said, Yeah, I get that. She's not a Scientologist. This woman was never a Scientologist, but she said, I know this woman, and she helped me a lot. She's a nutritional counselor because this this friend of mine was

The Tone Scale Hook

SPEAKER_01 9:20

really into you know nutrition, even though she was a drug dealer.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Wow, yeah, that's um that's a unique combination, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

And she said, Her name's Rosemary, and I think that she might give you some tips that could help you. I was like, okay, I'll go for it. So I went and met this woman. Uh, never once did she tell me she was a Scientologist, but she did have a tone scale on her wall. And I didn't know that was Scientology, you know, the scale of up and down the tone scale. And I and she would teach me. It's funny because you're you're helping me to remember this because I had forgotten all about this that was on her wall. And she taught me how to use it. So, like I would have a real issue with somebody I worked with, like a partner in my business. And she would teach me, okay, we just go one tone above where they are, and you can control the conversation. And I was like, Can you? I'm gonna try it. And it worked. I was like, Oh, okay, this is good stuff. And then she would teach me more things and she would help me handle certain issues, but I never told her about the big problems I was having in my life. It was very surface. But about six months in, I finally broke down and I was just crying. And she says, What's going on? And I told her everything the financial issues I was having, the drugs, the affair that I couldn't get out of all of it. And she looked at me and she was very kind and calm. And she looked at me and she said, Would you like to never feel that way again? Would you like this to be gone? Just like that. And I looked at her and I went, That's not possible. She says, Well, actually, it is. And I know someone who can help you.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

What are you gonna do? I was like, Well, who is this person, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Yep. Curiosity killed the cat, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, I did. Good thing I have nine lives.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yes, indeed. Oh my gosh.

Meeting A Field Auditor

SPEAKER_01 11:08

So I went to this guy. I won't say his name because I'm trying to be nice. That may not last forever, but for now.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Um, uh, he was a field auditor in Los Gatos, California.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Um, and of course, for anyone listening, a field auditor is somebody who they're not staff, but their basic role, and correct me if if you would state it differently, is to audit new people to bring them in to then feed them into the organizations to get them moving up the levels.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, and they have an ulterior motive too. Yeah, they get paid. Yes. If they bring you in, they get paid a percentage of every service you do from that point forward.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So, you know, he had to he he wanted me to do better, sure, maybe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

But he was also financially motivated to keep you on the hook and keep you going.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yes, and that's what happened. So, what okay, this is a really good story. I'll tell you this one. So um, I go into his office and he's talking to me a little bit uh about what he does. And he said, Have you ever heard of Scientology? And I'm like, No, because this was 1987, understand? There was no internet, there was no nothing. And he said, You haven't. He said no. I said, No. He said, You know, the things you've been using with rosemary, that's Scientology. I said, It is, and he said, Yeah. Have you heard of Dianetics? I said, Oh, yo, you know, that thing with the volcano on the cover, that book, yeah, because it was all over the TV at the time, right? The ads.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yes, to Jefferson Hawkins ads, yes, ended up being one of my best pals, right? Yes, may we rest in peace. Yes, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Um, but I said, No, I've never, I mean, I've heard of it, but I've never read it. He said, Well, this is what Scientology is, and he explained this whole applied religious philosophy nonsense, but I bought right into it, right? And he said, It's just to help the able become more able, and you're a very able person, and we just want to help you do better. Okay. So, so of course he had me take a personality test, the 200 question

The Personality Test Sell

SPEAKER_01 13:15

test that you have to take.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yes. Do you read through timetables at the railroad station? Just for pleasure, just for pleasure.

unknown 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Or or more sinister one is um, do you agree with corporal punishment of children? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

There's a lot of crazy questions in there. And he said, you just answer it how you feel right now. And then I'll I'll I'll give you your results. I'm like, oh, I like tests. I do them in, I like personality tests. I do them in Cosmo all the time. So this shouldn't be any different, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

So we I did the test. It took about 20 minutes. He takes it to another office because he has to print it out on a graph, brings the graph in and puts it down in front of me. And it's this graph with 10 different personality characteristics from high to low, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Like uh composed and responsible, responsibility, um, critical, like uh yeah, there's yeah, yeah, happy, happy and depressed, and stable and unstable, and all these personality traits.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yes, and it marks it on a graph. So it's like and he looked at the graph and he looked at me and he said, Lim, okay, so let me tell you what this graph says about you. It says you are highly communicative, but also very critical, and you're very critical of yourself, and you're critical of others, but you don't tell them, but you also get taken advantage of, and you're very depressed, but you're pretending not to be. And I'm just looking at him like, How did you know all this? Because I didn't know this. You told me this, and that's what the graph tells me. The good thing is we have tools to handle all of these things. So sneaky. Yeah, guess what? The so of course he just started by this is the whole thing. I learned how to do this because I was, you know, when I joined staff after a few years, I that's what my job was to get new people in. I did it for years. And so I learned how to do it.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

To evaluate the graphs with the end result being that they will go do training and counseling and in Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, you you're finding a ruin, is what it's called. Yes. So what's ruining your life, right? And then you get them to tell you, and then you go.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

And the first thing he did and by the way, note for any uh everyone listening, there's never no ruin.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah, and you're never always something.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

You're never happy, and you know what, you don't need Scientology. That is never the answer, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

That is a really good point. Like, let's say you get a graph and it's all along the top. What they tell you is, oh, you're just in a I I don't want to use the terms, but basically you're just being fake.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

That's not really you. Uh I I have a word for it that I just found. So in Scientology, the word is theity weedy, right? That's the word you were going to say, which is this really unique word in Scientology that basically means yes, you're you have an inability to confront. And the closest I'd found to that um re up until recently was Pollyanna-ish. Even perfect. Like Pollyanna. But an even better one, in my personal opinion, is toxic positivity.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

That's even better. And that's exactly what they tell you, right? Yes. Like, oh no, this isn't real. So let's find out what's really going on. So this is why you get in, right? To find out who you really are. It's it's insane, but it worked.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah. They first thing they use the mystery sandwich on you, like, oh, wait, what? Really? Maybe I'm maybe there is something to this. Maybe, you know, and and yeah, but go on.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Okay, so next, um, the first thing he did is he had me get a book. And the book he gave me was introduction to Scientology Ethics, which of course it was, because I was having an affair and I was doing drugs and I was doing all these things, right? So, of course. And he said, This is how this is a whole uh it's not he explained that Scientology ethics wasn't what you think, it's it's more of your personal integrity and how you deal with the world and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting. Maybe this can help me. But I didn't read it. I brought it home, but I didn't read it because I was busy, you know, working and stuff. Yes. And about a week later, my mom called me while

Grief, Commands, And First Auditing

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I was home. Um, she called me to tell me that one of my best friends, who was 24 years old at the time, had died. And I she said he died of pneumonia. I knew it was AIDS, and it broke me. It broke me because he was. I mean, I grew up with this guy, and we had some, and I was on the floor. I fell to the floor and I was just heaving, sobbing, and I couldn't control it. Literally 10 minutes later, I get a call from this guy. He could not have known that this was going on. He could not have known. He said, Hi, I just want to check in and see how you're doing with the book. And I'm just weeping on the phone. And he just said, Come over right now, I can help you. He just cut through all of it. Boom. And I just took that as a command, and I went, Okay, I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Which it and it was a command, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Exactly. That's how they're trained. It is, it was a command.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And I went to his office, I drove right to his office. I'm still hysterically crying. How I got there, I still don't know. And he met me outside, and he said, Well, the first thing we're gonna do is what's called a locational. And he walked around with me and had he would pointed out things, look at that tree, and I would look and he'd say, Thank you, and he'd point out all these things, right? And the idea is to get you out of your head, basically, what you're stuck in. And it worked, and I felt a little bit better, right? And he said, Okay, now we're gonna go back to the office and I'm gonna help you. And I was like, Okay, I didn't know what that meant. Yeah, and he explained what Dianetics auditing was and how by going through this incident and then running it through it over and over and over again, you release what's called charge from it. You release the emotional content and you can look at it rationally. I was like, hmm, okay, let's try it. And he doesn't he didn't charge me for this because of course not. He was trying to get me on the hook, right? Yes. So he ran me through this dianetic session, and it started with the phone call from my mom, but uh we kept going back to earlier incidents. He said, Okay, now you have to recall, and because it wasn't getting any better. He goes, Go back to an earlier time when you felt like this or you had this emotion, right? We went all the way back to when I was a little baby girl and my dog died, and it was so hard. And I was crying and crying and crying, and all of a sudden I realized what it was, and it went poof, and then all of it was gone, like all the emotion it was gone. And I sat up like this. What did you do? He said, That's auditing. I want more of this. Good. And that's how it started.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Wow, my goodness. Oh, golly gee. And now the story really begins, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:17

And now it ramps up because he pointed at on the wall, the bridge to total freedom. He said, You know what that is? That's the Scientology Bridge to Total Freedom. And I was like, Okay. And he said, So you start down where you are here and you do all these steps, and at the top you have total spiritual freedom, your cause over matter, energy, space, time, life. I was like, Really? I want that. Because you know, I did. Who doesn't? Who wouldn't want that?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Right, right. Especially as we were saying, you you were caught in a vulnerable, really vulnerable time. And then on top of that, the loss of your friend, which I'm so sorry for, and kind of um he caught caught you in the perfect storm.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

It was a perfect storm, it really was. And I try to explain this to people because they just don't understand how people can get caught up in something like this. It's easier than you think.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Right. Exactly. And and it is, you know, unless you've walked in your shoes. But but I'm sure I think most people can relate to thinking back to a time of their life where they felt desperation or depression or grief or loss or vulnerability, like in an extreme measure. And if somebody came to you in that moment seemingly offering solutions and help and support and love, it's it's it's easy to overlook that you know, those emotions and the reality of that situation as. An outsider looking in, but you know, again, you you've explained it very well. So, what happened from there? Okay, so then he took all my money.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Okay, basically, he said, Okay, so if you want to do this, the first thing you have to do is get to the state of clear, and clear, you know. Well, you I'm sure you've talked about it a lot, but you're supposed to have apparently it didn't work for me because I'm still wearing glasses.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Apparently, I was supposed to get rid of it. By the way, do you want to know a fun fact that you probably don't know? I was named after the state of clear.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

No, you were not.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

I was. My mom told me a hundred times she read Dianetics when she was pregnant with me. And Clear is French. Uh sorry, Claire is French for Clear. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Oh my God, Claire. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

That's horrible. Yeah, it's crazy. Anyway, it kind of ruined the name for me, but it's okay. I I'll I'll choose to think of it as Claire, you know, um French for light

Buying The Bridge With Debt

SPEAKER_02 23:07

instead of clear. So there you go. Anyway, keep going. Keep going.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Oh, I love that. So, okay, so he says, so there's two ways you can go about this to get up to clear. There's two sides to the bridge there's the auditing side and the training side. You go the auditing side, someone delivers the services to you. You do the training side, you learn it yourself, and the two of you, two people do it together to each other. And I said, I don't want to do that. Do this. I want to do this part. I don't feel it, I don't have time for this. And he's like, he's like, okay, well, it's gonna cost you. I mean, then he starts into the sales thing, right? Yeah, and it's uh we sell these blocks of auditing in in blocks of 12 and a half hours, and it cost you this much per 12 and a half hours, or you could do uh the entire package up to clear, and it would only cost you $25,000. And this is 1987. Oh, did I have $25,000? No, I did not. No, and I said $25,000. Oh, I forgot one part. Before he sold me that, he did a life repair on me.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Okay. And life repair is of course counts uh the counseling step.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

It's like at the very bottom of the introductory introductory and it only cost me 500 bucks, which was less than a therapist at the time for that many hours. Right. So I thought, okay, I'll do life repair. By the end of life repair, I was off the drugs, I was out of the bad relationship, I was doing better at work, and I was like, oh, this works. Great. That's when he sold me the rest of it. And I didn't have $25,000, but I had a credit card.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Oh dear. Oh, I know where this is going.

unknown 24:49

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

So he says, Um, we can raise the limit on your credit card. I said, You can. He goes, Yeah, sure. Picks up the phone, calls the bank, gets it raised at $25,000. Oh no. Rest is history. I didn't have that money to pay it back. And he said, Oh, don't worry, because more you go up the bridge, the more capable you're gonna be, and you're gonna make so much money, it'll be easy to pay back because that's what they always tell you. Right? Insert, eye roll. Right. How many broke, destitute Scientologists are there out there? So many.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

All you hear about is the rich ones who give millions. Yeah, you don't hear about Joe everyday Scientologists who's got everything on credit cards and mortgaged up the hilt and second mortgaged and third mortgaged.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Right. I I would I would guesstimate that of current active Scientologists, of which that number is dwindling, I would estimate that 85 to 95 percent of those active Scientologists fall into that category of overleveraged, holding, you know, going further and further into debt for the hope that Scientology will fix it.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Right. And they keep going because you've got the sunk cost fallacy, right? I've put so much into it, it's gotta work. It's gotta work. And that happened in the Sea Org, too. I had put so many years into it, I didn't want to leave. Come on, completely 100%.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, yes. Okay, so so go ahead.

TRs And Conditioning For Abuse

SPEAKER_01 26:13

So he sold me my clear package, and then he started on the TRs with me, communication course, and he did the TRs with me, and it was a very uncomfortable experience as you know how it is. And uh somehow I just kept tamping it down, you know, when he would do things or say things in these like TR3, which is where you have to sit there like this and have the person across from you say or do anything to try to break you, and he did. Boy, did he, and it was degrading.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Wait, you're talking about bullbait. Yes, yes, TR0 bullbait. That's what I meant. TR0. Yes, TR3 is the de fish swim or de birds flight. That's even more bizarre. But yeah, so TR0.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

I get him so wrong, man.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

No, no, it's okay, it's okay. But TR, so T you're right, TR0 Bullbait. You're supposed to sit there, you know, glassy eyed, comfortable, just I mean, they don't say glassy eyed, but we were supposed to just be you exactly, we were sitting there comfortably while your coach does anything and everything, like sexual, physical, abusive, violent, anything. And you're supposed to just sit there and and accept it, but go on. And I did.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And uh it took a long time to get past that one. But that's like for me, that was the big whoop where before I was sort of okay, and then I was just a good little robot after that, man. Interesting. I I just sat, I could sit. It really prepares you to be able to sit and take whatever gets thrown at you in the Sea Org, man.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

It conditions you for abuse and a whole lot of other things, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Sure does. So I finished those, and then I went to he couldn't deliver the purification rundown at his field office because he didn't have a sauna. So he took

Purification Rundown And Love Bombing

SPEAKER_01 28:15

me to Mountain View Mission. And a mission, I do people understand what a mission level organization is? Yeah, but but for the just for the sake of context, it's the lowest level organization per se, but they don't have they can only deliver a certain amount of things.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Yes, and and again, their purpose is just to get new people into Scientology and then forward them onto the bigger organizations.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Right, right. So I went in there to do my purification rundown, and man, I was clearly fresh meat for them because boy, the love bombing started then. It was, oh, you're so amazing and wow and high and wonderful. We love you and you're great and blah, blood. And I was like, wow, these are really nice people. No, they were not really nice people. Yeah, they just wanted me. And I did that purification rundown, which involves sitting in a sauna for five hours a day and taking up to 5,000 milligrams of niacin. I think about that now. How are my liver and kidneys working?

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Yeah, I know. I've uh great question. I know. Um, and that those levels of niacin, I've seen studies that it's actually carcinogenic to take that high level of niacin. And also, of course, it goes without saying, um, Hubbard had zero credentials to come up with this program. He did zero research. His research was, oh, I know an idea, as my kids like to say. Let's stick people in saunas and give them huge amounts of vitamins, and drugs are lodged in tissues, of which there's no scientific evidence that I've ever seen that that's the case.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

And this is that was a lot of yeah, that was a lot of what I did afterwards is dug into all these things to find out the truth, to re-deconstruct all this, right? Yes, yes, man. And I so I was in there five hours a day, you know, taking all that niacin. And by the end of the purification rundown, um, I mean, I had been earmarked for staff, I will tell you that. And they had been slowly talking to me about working in an organization and how cool it is, and you can do it part-time while you still have your other business and bloody dee dee dee dee dee. And I went, oh, part-time, sure, I can do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah, and then the mission turned into an org, a class five organization. It was a whole big deal, right? And I was part of that, and then it was like we were class five org staff, which is much tougher.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yes, and you're then required to sign a two and a half or five-year contract.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Which one did you opt for?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Well, I started with two and a half and quickly went to five because I was working so much there that I let all of my other stuff go by the wayside. I had no business anymore. I had no nothing, I had no money, so I had to work there, right? Yeah, sleep on people's couches. That's basically what happened. I didn't have anything.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Okay, I have a question. So, and just for context again, so all this is happening. What are your parents thinking?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

They weren't they didn't live in San Francisco and we hadn't spoken for this. It was a problem because we hadn't spoken for years because they were so upset about this guy that I married. They didn't even come to the wedding. Um, and we did speak a little bit after I divorced him, but there was still a big rift between us that I had not resolved. So they weren't there to save me, basically. Fair enough. Understood. And I was doing my own thing. And it's like I was right, I was 100% right what I was doing. I knew it.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Of course, as you are, right? When I mean, hey, my kids are teenagers now, and oh boy, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, when you're that age, wait, Claire, wait, you're gonna get older. My grandkids are starting to be my grand, my oldest granddaughter is going to high school next year. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Wow, no, yeah, I know my middle my middle son, his high school graduation was last night. I was bawling like a baby. Oh uh, yeah, it's gives me goosebumps. It's just crazy now to think I've two kids who graduated high school, and my little guy is already a teenager. Anyway, back to your story.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

It's so amazing though that you have this, right? It makes me so happy for you.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

And likewise, I'm so glad you have grandchildren and all of that, and getting to experience that in you know, a literal second life, right? It has been a second life, a beautiful second life.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yes. Back to the crap, yes. So I get I joined staff, I'm in staff, we're in a class five org, and every class five org uh has what's called a flag rep flag representative, which is a C org member that's installed into that organization to make sure that you're operating per whatever L. Ron Hubbard wants you to do, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yes, and they're also the eyes and ears, they report up to management on anything askew, things like that, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah. And he uh I like this guy, this English guy. And his name was Andrew Bradley.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

I knew it. That's how I got in the Sea Org girl. Oh my god, goodness. I know I was thinking about it what before our conversation. I was like, I was thinking to the year that I first met you and how old I was at that time, which I

Staff Contracts And Losing A Life

SPEAKER_02 33:44

was um uh 17, 18. Yeah, I was 18 when I first met you, but I was remembering that you were Andrew, uh Ann Bradley. Anne Bradley, yes. That's right. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Everybody used to call me Brad. Dan Kuhn still calls me Brad. Really? That's really funny.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Oh, that is funny. I didn't know that. I never heard you called that, but that's okay. Um in the in marketing, I was Brad. I see. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Anyway, so I met him and we kind of you know hit it off. And of course, Sea Org members can't have relationships outside of the Sea Org. You can't even have them in, but anyway. Um, but we wanted to get married, we decided we really loved each other and we wanted to be together, and we petitioned ED Int, Executive Director International, to be able to uh get married, and I would say you being staff, yeah. But I said I would sign a C org contract, okay, but we wouldn't go right away because you know we had things to do, and he said, sure. He he approved it with the caveat that I had to activate my C org contract when called to do so. Okay, so I really hadn't signed the contract yet. I said, but I eventually want to join the Sea Org, is what I said.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Okay, but but also let me ask, but you're are you allowed to get married right away? He let us get married. Seriously, wow, okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

But then but then there's always a but then one week later, you were called a group of people come into the org with all their epaulettes and their uniforms. The int writers mission comes into the org, and their whole task was to extract me so that I could go from this organization straight up to int management as a writer.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

My gosh, so you're not even in the C organization yet. Wow. Okay, okay, go on. You understand this.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Most people don't understand what a big deal that is.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I do, and and I'll I'll provide the context in my words and feel free to add in. But generally speaking, um to get to get moved to the imp base, even though it's worse than Supermax, you don't know that you know, when you're in Scientology, you think, oh wow, that's that's an amazing honor, right? Right. But the qualifications to get there are really rigorous. And one of the qualifications is that in most cases, you have to have at least a year production record as a member of the sea organization. So that's that's why I'm going, oh my gosh, you weren't even in the sea organization yet. And in comes this mission saying, We we're gonna get you into the sea organization and you're gonna go on a fast track straight to Golden Era Productions for the for the writers to be a writer.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

And that's exactly what happened. I did my clearances, but I said the only way I'm gonna do this is if he comes with me. They were gonna take my husband, but they had to because I wasn't going unless they took him. Isn't that crazy story?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Yes, so crazy. And again, uh footnote to say I've known you since 1993 and I've never known any of this. See? Well, when were we gonna talk about this? Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

All we could do was produce. We weren't allowed to talk.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

No, and and talking wouldn't nothing good would have would have come from having a conversation because oh no, oh no, you were talking to who about what? Right. Wow. Okay, go on. I'm this is yeah, this is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, so I did my clearances, and this is the crazy part. I had gotten auditing up to and through

Marriage Petition And Sea Org Pull

SPEAKER_01 37:34

grade four, and then I had gotten my new era dianetics auditing, which is right before you clear, right? Yeah, I'd gotten some okay in the class five org. And when I was on my clearances, um, I had to get all this extra. You'll understand this, but maybe you can put it in. So you have to fill out a life history, which is everything about you, everything's literally position.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Everything, yeah. Every sexual position, every family member, everything, everything you've ever done. If you're connected to any gov anyone in the government, anyone in the media, anyone in the CIA, anyone in the FBI, like literally everything where your friends live. Yeah, all of it. Um, all of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

So I fill out this thing, and then you get um sex checked or interrogated on the meter on all of these things to make sure you didn't leave anything out. Gotta make sure. Well, when that that happened, and then everything was packaged up and sent up to for me to go up to uh gold, gold air production.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Because it has to be approved by like 10 people, 10 to 15 people, including all the way up to religious technology center. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

And Marty Rathbun was the final approval term person on this, and he said, with that uh sexual history, you need to give her uh 2DFPRD, which is you explain what that is.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, so so again, in so in Scientology, there are the dynamics, which is the urges to survival. The second dynamic is sex, family, etc. And so false purpose rundown is where you identify your evil purposes that are causing you to not survive well in a certain area. So this, so you were Marty basically said you had you must have evil purposes in the area of sex and family, and therefore he was requiring that you get that addressed before you could get approved. Did I sum that up, Farer?

unknown 39:31

Perfect!

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Okay, way better than I could do.

unknown 39:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

So so then they started me auditing me on that, and I went clear on my end clearances.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Yeah, and I didn't know, and they were like, Yeah, you have to go test a clear now. I'm like, what? I didn't know what any of that was. I just went, okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Wow, and that's that's really unusual. Um, because I'm an unusual person, Claire. No, no, no, it's just unique because again, for anyone listening, um, generally speaking, and especially now would absolutely be the case, the belief is that, or it, you know, whatever belief, the practice is that you when you attain the state of clear, you you're doing dianetics auditing. So FPRD is a false purpose rundown, is not dianetic auditing. That's why that's on stands out to me. But go ahead. So they put me on the clear certainty rundown.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Okay. I did that, then I attested to clear, and it was a big deal because that had never happened on clearance lines. And ooh, you know, so I was even more special then. Yes. And shortly after that, um, I got approved to go. So I get in the van. You know, it was a oh, I was so excited. I was so excited because I've been told about how incredible this is such a privilege and an honor, and nobody even knows how amazing it is there.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

And and again, for context, did you know physically where you were going? Hell no. Right. I didn't even know where I was going. Yep, because you're not you were not allowed to know until you're physically arrived there, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Correct. So they're driving me and driving for driving for a little while in the van. And she's like, We're getting closer. I'm like looking around and it's all desert. And I'm like, where are we going? And she says, wait, you'll see it as we come around the corner. It's green and lush and beautiful, and all I saw was the chapel with the Scientology thing on, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Which is where I worked at the time. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

That's where you were. And uh, and I get there, and there's like all this fencing and gates and barbed wire, and I'm like, well, it must be great inside.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm laughing with you, not at you. Now, you know, we've we've both had that moment. Uh oh my gosh, in retrospect. Like, yeah, like what am I doing? Yeah, it's too late now.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yeah, we're here now, no turning back.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to yourself, your your that self in this moment, right now? Like if you could talk.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Do you see the barbed wire? Go jump out of the van. That's what I would have said. Right. I mean, that's what I say now. But then I mean you're so conditioned.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

And your mind is gone. I mean, you're not your mind, but your your sense of critical thinking is gone.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah. And then not to mention the fact, physically, you are literally in the middle of nowhere with no car, no, there's no Uber back then. You wouldn't, you didn't have a phone. I mean, literally, physical options were very limited in that moment, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

There was nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

So they drive me in all the way up to um, well, it's now the whole, but what was before?

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Oh, um, it was, I mean, um, what did they call it? It used to be Del Sol. Yeah, Del Sol. Yeah, the the Int buildings. Uh because it was Del Sol was then became auditing room. So but the double wide trailers

Clearances, Interrogations, And Going Clear

SPEAKER_02 43:18

was referred to as Int back then before it became the whole.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Right. So they drove me up there and they brought me in because I was gonna meet uh the person who was gonna take me around the base and show me everything, and because they hadn't decided where they were gonna put me yet. Okay, I was a hot commodity.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah, were the writers were going to be posted in Golden Era Productions or in the Int Management PR office? Both places, and they both were fighting for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

I was having a little, you know, back and forth, and they were telling me the best parts about this and the best parts about that. And um, but the first thing I walk in to the uh Building and Ed walks out. Guillaume walks out.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

The one who approved you to marry your husband.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And I said to and I, and you know me, I'm very woohoo. And he's looking at me like this. Because they're not used to having anybody bubbly. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

As I said at the bit at the start of this conversation, that's what stood out to me about you from day one. I was like, wow. It's like uh if if the whole world was black and white, you were this technicolor, like fairy uh beautiful burst of like energy and like wow, this you were not the the people that I was used to seeing around there. That's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

But what happened? They tried to break me. I know, especially Miss Gavin. She tried to break me, but he didn't do it. Here I am. Same. Yeah, right. But but I told him, I said, Oh my god, oh my god, it's easy. Oh my god, all I'd ever seen him on was like big video screens of these big international events, and there he was standing in front of me. And I said, Hi, hi, I'm Ann Bradley, and you approve my petition at CSW to get married and join the Sea Org when I was called to do so. I guess this is the time. And he looks at me and he goes, Oh, okay, welcome. And I was like, I thought you'd be more excited than that, but all right.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

To be fair, he probably looked gray and hadn't had much sleep because he never got much sleep.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

No, he looked very dull, smaller than I thought. Yeah, but everybody did. Yeah. You know, everybody looked dull and gray and horrible except for one person. Who was that? Who do you think? You know, David Miscavige.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

He just looked angry and mean.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah, for sure. He's like the the black cloud floating like not floating, stomping.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Ah anyway, so that's how I got there. And then I ended up in uh central marketing unit, which I loved. I walked in there and I saw all these people like doing all these wild things and talking about it. It just looked lively. And I thought, well, these are my people. I like them, they're pretty lively. Yeah, and um, and that's where they posted me in central marketing, and then I ended up being the senior magazine editor and doing all the Scientology magazines, which I did not want to do, but I ended up doing that for years. Yeah, being personally overseen by his highness, which was a nightmare. Talk about a talk about like why would he have to look at every single thing I wrote? But that's who how he was, right? Micromanager supreme.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Yeah, I know, I know. I think it's hard for people to understand too the level. I mean, there was nothing, nothing could happen in Scientology without his approval. But let me ask you this, because I have a so I have another memory that I would love to get your thoughts on. So um so yes, I was your supervisor, but then in and then I spent a year in Clearwater, Florida. Um, and when I was brought back to the property, so now we're talking 1997, and I was put in I by now I I was in Religious Technology Center and I was the director of correction for AVC. Remember the authorization, verification, correction. Yeah. Uh if if I was ever an asshole to you, I apologize. You never. Excuse my language, but you know, I uh not to interrupt you, I'll let you say your piece, but there are so many times that I had had so little sleep, or was like, you know, do this, or you're going to the rehabilitation project for us. I never lost my humanity, but there are certainly interactions, and you know, it's all about you you were the receiving end of some of what I'm about to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Well, I don't remember you being anything but um good to me. Um you were mostly after the you know, you were a different person, sadly, from the person that I knew when we were doing the training.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

So you were very removed. But I think you were holding yourself back so that you weren't you didn't do anything worse. Yeah. That's how it felt to me. Like kind of holding it in so you didn't yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

But but so this memory that I have is I was in this role of correction and I was supposed to work with all the marketing staff to make sure that nothing that you wrote indicated that David Miscavige ran everything. Do you remember that? Oh yes!

SPEAKER_01 48:54

I forgot. Yep. Oh my god, but he did run everything. He did be very careful about that and make sure that he we did not let on.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Yeah, and it was being overseen by Lyman

Gold Base Arrival And Marketing Control

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Spurlock. Yes, because it tied in with the um the IRS tax exemption and also ongoing lawsuits, of which we were, you and I both were clueless in that moment. Like I didn't know why I was having to do this work with you to, you know, have you read this and this and this. And I we just knew that whatever, that's the order of the day. I was just curious if you remembered that and your thoughts on it, because I I just have a the distinct remembrance of this assignment I was given that had to result in marketing people writing and you writing stuff that didn't tell the truth about David Miscavige's role in Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

It's shocking how much I wrote that wasn't true. It was almost everything I wrote. Like, like, imagine having to say, like this was, I think, for the high winds magazine, or part of it was because the high winds magazine was promoting the sea organization, right? Yes, and we could not say or even hint that David Miscavige had anything to do with the things that were going on in the Sea Org day to day when we knew he had everything to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Yes, so much so that nothing happened day to day unless he approved it. Nothing, nothing or and not only approved it, but also had ordered that it be done in the first place, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

And and and everything he said was recorded. And when you like, for example, I would write a magazine or put a magazine together, and then he'd go through it. We'd have to go into this big conference room and sit while he tore it apart. Everything he said was recorded, and then you'd have to read all of his recorded transcripts and clear up any word you didn't fully understand and make sure that you knew exactly what he wanted and then fix it. And this went on over and over and over and over again. It was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yeah, and I and I remember so many times the the deadlines and the people staying up or all night to get things done and like crazy all night, like try to write a magazine when you had no sleep for three days, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

So then of course it just gets worse and worse, and then you end up breaking rocks in the sun on the decks with a guard over you, you know. Yeah, because I wrote a bad article for the free ones.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, oh my goodness. Well, this hour has flown by. It has not been an hour, basically. Yeah, I know. Can you imagine? So, as I warned you, I I if you're good for it, because I don't I don't want to shortchange your the next part of the story of what comes next, because I I have I uh I mean everyone's story is amazing, but your story is amazing, and I would love to, if you're up for it, do a part

Hiding Miscavige And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_02 52:03

two with you. Of course. Okay, yeah, yeah. And and and yeah, and I just want to say, uh like literally, it's mind-boggling to me that I've learned more about you. I mean, obviously, you're you're a dear friend, but I'm so glad we're just taking this time to explore your story. Thank you for your courage and your bravery and your persistence and for breaking free and being the beautiful, amazing human that I saw you to be. Um, I just want to say that. And I'm I'm so glad that your your memoir is coming out and you seeing your success on TikTok. And anyway, just super grateful for that.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

So I'm super grateful for you because you've always been nothing but loving to me. Thank you. And that's what it's all about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 52:49

It is. It is peace, love, faith, and happiness, and and exposing Scientology for the deadly, dangerous, and abusive cult that it is.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yes, let's let's let's continue this at a at another time.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Amazing. And hey, for anyone tuning in, watching part one, if there are questions you would like us to cover in part two, drop them in the comments. You're an amazing person, and it's been absolutely like I said, this hour has flown by. It really has. I'm really looking forward to hearing the next part of the story, which is going to be tougher, but also includes you breaking free. So I everyone I adore you, and I'm just so happy we got to do this. Me too, me too. Alrighty. Well, with that, till n until next time, we'll talk to you soon. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Zenu, Xenu is my homeboy, and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good, behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology, in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot. Until next time.