Leaving The Sea Org - w/ Anne Gollert Hill - Scientology Stories #59

One day you’re “clearing the planet.” The next, you’re staring at a rental car door asking yourself if you can really walk away from everything you’ve been trained to fear. Claire Headley sits down with Ann Gollert Hill for part two of Scientology Stories, and Ann lays out the chain of events that turns long-term disillusionment into a real escape from the Sea Org.

We dig into what life feels like inside Scientology’s power structure, from Golden Era Productions and Int Base-style control to the punishing churn of the Basics campaign at Flag in Clearwater. Ann shares how violence, humiliation, and rigged tests keep people compliant, including being forced into degrading “ethics” consequences when leadership decides you are the day’s target. Then comes the moment so many former members recognize: opening OT III and feeling something internal snap, as if the whole belief system suddenly reads differently.

From there, the story becomes both terrifying and deeply human. Ann explains the quiet lifeline that mattered most: steady, nonjudgmental contact with her mom, and the simple truth that you cannot argue someone out of a high-control group but you can make yourself a safe place to land. Her breaking point hits after being screamed at for seeing her family, leading to a ten-hour decision, a letter left behind, and a drive into the unknown while watching the rearview mirror. Her brother Al helps her disappear across the country in his truck, buying her time to breathe, sleep, and start recovering from religious trauma.

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people searching for Scientology, Sea Org, OT III, and cult recovery stories can find it.

Transcript

Welcome Back And Part Two Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hello, and welcome back to the channel. I'm your host for today, Claire Headley. And today we will be um discussing part two of Scientology Stories with my dear friend and amazing uh now, let's see, whistleblower, uh activist, Scientology exposer of abuse, Ann Gollert Hill. Welcome to the show, Anne. Welcome back. Let's expose. Yes, let's get to it. So so amazing. I so thoroughly enjoyed our conversation from part one. Um, I will link to that in the video description. So if you're tuning in for the first time and just meeting Anne for the first time, stop right now and go back and watch part one.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah, you got to get the juicy details.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yes, exactly. Um, my gosh, that hour just flew by. And and to reiterate what I said, uh what we discussed in part one, um, you have a book coming up, you've been um posting on TikTok, you have a Substack, there's all kinds of ways to follow Ann's story, and I'm just so grateful to have your voice in this space. So thank you again. I'm so grateful to be in this space. It took a long time for me to get here. Yes, and it takes all of us a long time to get here, frankly. Um yeah, I mean, I can still remember the first time that I went to do film a documentary and there were private investigators out on the street, right? It was scary. I was like, oh my gosh, what have I got myself into here?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Right? I remember once I was having uh lunch with Ron and Becky Miscavige because they were in the area and I hadn't seen them in forever. And it was right after the whole incident had happened with you know, David uh saying if he dies, he dies, you know,

Harassment Stories And Being Targeted

SPEAKER_01 2:20

that whole incident. Yes, yes, what became his book.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

I'll I'll add the link in the description. Tony Ortega did an article about that. But yes, Ron Miscavige Sr., his son David Miscavige had private investigators following him for so it was really fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It was so much fun to have lunch and have all the cars going by. And we're like, oh, there's there's one, there's one. There's one over there.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Oh my gosh, we we have stories for days. We we'll probably we'll probably have to do a follow-up just in Scientology nonsense, right? You've against yeah, I mean, I've you reminded me of a time in 2009. So our kids were three and one. We were living in Burbank, California. We went and had lunch with Amy Scobie and Matt Pesh, and we came back and we had literally an OSA film crew on our front yard with a you know, the sound boom, the camera. We're like, we had lunch at a Mexican restaurant. Like, what is wrong with you people?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Wow. They're just, you know, they think they can shut you up, but they can't anymore.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I know. I oh, speaking of which, I know stories like this, again, not not to uh not to overstep my welcome, but we should do a follow-up because do you know this past week um Scientology submitted an amicus brief in the Danny Masterson case?

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

And like a huge portion of it is attacking me, comparing me to an anti-Catholic defrocked nun. I'm sorry. That is hilarious, really. But but my the the part that's so outrageous to me is they say I would not leave them alone. I'm like, just get out. Are you kidding me right now? I wouldn't leave you alone. The only reason I'm I even got over my in like life-threatening fear of speaking out against these bullies is because of they wouldn't leave me alone. Exactly. Come on, anyway, whatever. Not not to that'll be another topic. Yes, exactly. But back to today. So in our last episode, we got to, you know, you're you're you're now working in

The Slow Unraveling Begins

SPEAKER_02 4:40

marketing at Golden Era Productions, Int Base, whatever, Supermax, aka the 500-acre compound in Gilman Hot Springs, California. Supermax is weird, maybe right, exactly. Actually, Supermax seems like vacation, like a leave of absence compared to that, right? Indeed. Um, so you're starting to become disillusioned. You, David Miscavige's um micromanaging everything that you're doing. Yep. But I would like to first, if you don't mind, kind of walk through your the unraveling from your perspective. Like what started happening, what was your thought process, what was going through your mind? Um, and then we'll get to your escape. The best part.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I know. So the unraveling, that's an interesting way to put it because it happens so slowly, you don't really realize it's happening, but little things will happen and it snaps you out just temporarily, and you go, Whoa, what was that? That's not what I've been learning and reading. And who who like I'll give you an example. I mean, everybody knows the story. Well, most people do. If they're watching this channel, they know the story of you know, Miss Scavage jumping across the table and beating up Jeff Hawkins when he was, you know, and I was right next to him when this happened.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

And we were all just like yes, sorry, let me insert because my favorite um line from a movie that to me perfectly describes that scenario. If you've ever seen Elf, it's when he goes, Ooh, he's a South Pole elf.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

It's exactly like Elf running across the table. Yes. Yeah. So that incident was a little shocking because I think that was the first time I saw him hit somebody. I mean, there were more times after that, but that was just my first experience with it. Um and what sorry, what what year was this approximately? Oh early 90s. Like I don't remember what year that was.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Early 90s. Maybe you mean early 2000s? Because you got to the base in 1993, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah. It might have been early 2000s. It might have been good. Because we'd work for like we'd

Violence And Forced Slap Punishment

SPEAKER_01 7:00

work, I'd I'd been there maybe 10 years before I saw him hit anybody. I mean I got hit by other people, but not him.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Who who did you get hit by? Oh, oh, this is a good story. Okay. So I mean, not that getting hit by somebody is no.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So I was so in various stages I was in charge of different things because you know though they tried everybody on the marketing executive post. They tried to put everybody on that post. And I was on that post for a very short time. Uh, and while I was I was the person who recommended me for that position was Lisa Schroer. Lisa Schroer is one of the people I think about most unfondly when I think back to that base. She was not a nice person, and she did whatever Miss Scavage wanted her to do. And there and she became like him. I, you know, certain executives would kind of become like him. They emulated him because I guess they figured it would keep them in his good graces. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

And yeah, and I think you know, you know, the saying like absolute power or uh absolute power corrupts absolutely. Right. Um, I I think that personally, I think that's a part of it too, because there's a there you're right. Uh to me, there are two categories of people. There were the people that were did what they had to do to survive. Yep. And there were people that revelled in, you know, like they they're like the snake in the grass, and they would enjoy seeing other people down and take every opportunity to, you know, make it worse. That's that's just how I view it.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

I think that's a really good assessment. And she was one of those people, right? And I was standing with her in the middle of marketing, and she was mad at me for something I didn't do. I don't know. And she was sitting standing next to somebody who I won't name, but I thought was a really good friend of mine. And she said to this person, take her out in the hall and slap her hard across the face. So she did. She walks me out in the hall, right? And she looks at me and she says, I'm sorry, I have to do this. Bam! And I was shocked, but I wasn't, it wasn't the pain of this, it was the pain of thinking that she would choose me over the organization, and she didn't. And that really got me thinking like, hmm, this is interesting. You know, that was one of those things where it kind of snapped me out temporarily, but then you justify it all. I must have done something to deserve this because that's what they tell you. I pulled it in, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yep. The adop indoctrination that make means that eventually you're doing the work for them of keeping you in, right? 100%. Yeah. Yeah. They they weren't doing, they didn't have to do anything. Yeah. I just went I mean, aside from you were trapped in Supermax and you know, besides besides that, you had no car, you couldn't drive out the door, but you know,

Clearwater Basics Push And A Rigged Test

SPEAKER_02 10:20

those are little things. But but then you say potato, I say potato, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

But then so this went on for a while, and then eventually, um in 2003, a team of us went to Flag in Clearwater, and we were there to work on the basics campaign, these Scientology basic books that was a big deal. You know, everybody was like on I don't know, pins and needles, tenter hooks, you know, like well, this has got to get done, or it's gotta get done right, and nothing was getting done right. So Miss Gavage takes this small group of people. Me, Dan Kuhn, uh Lisa Schroer was there, Helen Pinder. Remember Helen?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yes, I remember Helen.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

And uh who else was there? Jeff Hawkins. And we were all, he brought us all to Clearwater, and he brought us into a conference room and he said, Okay, so we've got to get this done. And here's what we're gonna do. I am going to give you guys an assignment every single day. And if you do the assignment right, you're good. If you don't, you're here. Meaning offloaded onto the flag land base. Now, for somebody who's an int-based staff member, that is a fate worse than death. Right. Right. I don't know how to describe how scary that was. Right. But you understand.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

I do. I do. I would liken it to hmm. It to me, I would say it's almost would be worse than being expelled altogether from Scientology, personally. That's right. Um, because it would be done in such a way that um everybody knows you failed. Um very degrading. Right, completely degrading, and there's no worse punishment than ending up in David Miscavige's little black book. That's how I that's how I would I would just to add to your commentary without you asking for it. No, I agree though.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And honestly, uh, I don't think he, you know, he was always out for me from the beginning. I was too I was too happy for him. I don't think he liked it at all. No, I was too cheerful.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

He didn't like um he didn't like anybody that showed emotion that wasn't complete submission, and uh, you know, like um, I mean, but again, it explains to me why you also sometimes rose up but then fell down. Yeah. Um that's what happened. The way I describe it from Mark is Mark was always either on top of the world or underneath it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're either in his good graces or his shit graces, and it's really just a matter of the day and his mood and what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Right. So this one day, we'd been there for three days and we'd all gotten everything done we were supposed to get done. This fourth day, he said, Okay, every single one of you has to go and sell a lecture series to a Scientologist who's here on services. Now understand, all these people have already spent tens of thousands of dollars to do their services at Flag. And I was just supposed to walk through uh the uh organization and find somebody in a waiting room who was waiting for their auditing session and sell them a $700 lecture series, right? And he said, Every single one of you has to do this because I want to see that you really can sell these things. Yep, right? So I tried and I only had an hour. We only had an hour, and I didn't succeed, and so he brings us all back in the room.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Wait, okay, go ahead. Go ahead, no ask questions. No, no, no, I'm dying, I'm dying. Go, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

So he brings us all back in the room and he starts pointing, goes to Jeff. Did you sell Lexra series? Yes, sir. Dan, yes, sir, uh, Lisa, yes, sir, me, no, sir, Helen, no, sir. You two out. He sent he's that was it. We were done. We were off post and he sent us to um he had Jenny Linson take Jenny Linson take us to uh the galley, right? And scrub the floors with a toothbrush for hours upon hours upon hours upon hours, and then I was in the dish room for months after that, and I was, you know, persona non grata, let's just say. And it was really interesting though, because at first I was so upset. But the more I got away from all of it and just was doing dishes and la ha ha, laughing and having fun, and yeah, my hands ached, but it was so much easier, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

And then I thought you were just working, and I know you you remind me of the times that I used to long to be busted to grounds or something because I'd be happy just cutting grass, and and you know how they would always say, Oh, if you leave, you're gonna be you're just gonna be flipping burgers the rest of your life. It's I I know, and I'm like, I would love to cook burgers. You know what's really funny?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

That's actually in my book because I talk about that like frankly, flipping burgers at McDonald's is way better than working with him. Right. It would have been a much better idea.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Oh my god. Okay, but hold on, hold on. I have to ask you. So do you and you may not know the answer to this. So Jeff, Lisa, Dan all said yes, sir. Do you know if they actually did, or were they just lying?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

It was all oh, Jeff told me this later, and so did Dan. It was all set up. What? Yeah. So uh what's his name? I forget. He used to work for author services, and then he was working in David Bloomberg. Yes. So he set up those guys so they actually had people they could sell lectures to.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Get out. I'm I I will get out. No, I know, no, no, no, no, no, no. I I'm just mind-blown.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Like, and he they told me this later. I'm like, well, that makes sense because how does anybody do that in an hour?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Right. Especially as you said, with people who've already spent tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to get there. People in at Flag on services are not there to buy lectures.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

No, yeah. So, anyway, that's what happened. And Helen and I were in the dish room for a long time. Uh until and Jenny Linson would come every day, right? She would walk through the you know, the mess hall back to the dish room. So, are you done? Are you done being you know, out ethics? Are you done with your evil purposes? I'm like, I guess.

unknown 17:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

I didn't know. Okay. So I figured I was just gonna be in the dish room for the rest of my Sea Org career, and actually that was okay. I was having fun. Uh, but then she came in one day and called me to her office and said, Okay, are you done with your shit? And I said, uh, oh yeah.

Dish Room Exile Then Magazine Redemption

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Well, you gotta go do the magazine, the source magazine for flag, because they had brought it in, they had uh were trying to do it in-house because I wasn't at it to do any magazines, right? So they tried they were trying to do it in-house and it had taken them, they were on it for a month and it wasn't done. She says, Go in there and and do the magazine. I walked in and I did it overnight. And Debbie, I I remember this Debbie Cook, who was the head of flag, right? She walks in and she says, You're here to do the magazine? I said, Yep. And she said, Wow, you came from heaven. I said, Yeah, via the dish room. Anyway, so then I was there, and oh, then things got great for me for a little while because at Flagstill at that time, things she was running things, she was in charge, she really was, and she ran things a whole different way than Miscavige did, and she was very much into rewarding you for you know doing good work, and I got lots of rewards. Um, I would go to staff meeting and they'd talk about the magazine, how it went out, and the and the income went up six weeks later or whatever. You know, it's some statistic that Hubbard said, and this was because of me, and thousand people would be upstanding and cheering for me. I'm like, Where am I? Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

They're like, wow, seriously, worlds apart from uh the years of how you'd lived up till that point in in the mark in the marketing division of Golden Era Productions.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, but unfortunately, uh, I mean, I would I did fine, I was doing great, but then a bunch of people came down from Int Management to work on the basics, and this was about for the for the year before I left. And one of those people, uh, well, Lisa Schroer was there when Henning, you know, and they would just look at me side eye, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

But Henning Bendorf was the art director, and then that turned into some executive post, even though it wasn't an executive post because he was one of David Miscavige's favorite pets, right? And he was also he was probably the human embodiment of an adder, like you know, the poisonous snakes quiet, and then you'd see an evil streak from him, like nothing you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Incredible, it's so so true. But one of the people that was there during this time was Diana Hubbard, and she'd always like me. And she came up to me and she's like, What are you doing here? Why aren't you? You should be back on the base. You really should be back there, and that I went boom! No, I'll never go back there. I didn't say that, of course, because you can't say those things, but inside I was like, I never I'm going back there because I had seen the difference, right? Yep, but unfortunately, the base started creeping more and more into Flag the whole the way that it was that they did things, and the executive director Harvey, he was like a little mini miscavage, he became very tired tyrannical. Harvey Jakes. Yeah, yep. And I was like, hmm, I see the writing on the wall, but even then I did not leave. But here's when it really changed when I did OT3. First of all, getting to do OT3 in the Sea Org is almost impossible.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah, so so walk me through that. I I started watching your TikTok video about this, and I was like, damn, I didn't know that you did OT3. So let's hear that story.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

So that was because of Debbie Cook, because um I had gone clear on my clearances. I think I told you that already. Yes, you did. So um basically, because I was so productive, um, I got to start my um solo auditing for you know OT123. Um, so I got to have sleep and everything. It was, I mean, really, I was doing I was happy. I was happy at at FLAG. Things were going great. And I got through OT1, I got through it two, and then I opened then I did OT three and I opened the pack. Do you know I was out three months later? The minute I started reading that, something inside me went, What?

Flag Versus Int Base Power Dynamics

SPEAKER_01 22:11

I spent almost 20 years of my life for this. Right. And I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

No, everybody I've ever talked to, myself included, uh that was a moment of like, what the AH? Um, like Mark and I have talked this, talked about this story many times. Like we were living in Kansas City in an apartment and he started watching the South Park episode. Ah. And uh, which by the way, not I'm embarrassed, but not ashamed to admit that I was still too afraid and to even watch at so he was watching out in the living room and I was just like, I'm gonna read my book.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Uh yeah, because you've been told so many times that people will die if they see this information.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Well, yeah, but it was not so much in that moment for me. I was I was OT5. Um Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. So for me, it was more about I was holding out hope to someday be able to speak to my family. And I felt like watching South Park would be like the line in the sand. And that was off the table. I mean, it is off the table, and I'm I'm at peace with that. But at that time, I was still holding on to that hope. But so Mark watches South Park and he looks over at me. And again, I was, you know, in the middle of OT5, then undeclared, clear, and put back on net, but that's a whole other story. Oh boy, fun. Um and he was like, is this for real? This Zenu? This this can't be real. I'm like, oh yeah, it's real. Anyway, go ahead. Go ahead. And and I've always said to me, it's the most elaborate example of the Emperor's new clothes, especially the OT levels.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yes, yeah, incredible. And then when I got out and then I read about the other OT levels and where you end up, no wonder, no matter so no wonder so many people who reach OT8 get sick.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, or or or reach the end phenomena of Scientology, which is leaving Scientology. Right. That is the end phenomena.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yay. I read I just happened to reach it earlier. Yes, but good for you. So I I did OT3, and of course I did all the processes because that's what you do. Yep. And then um I just had this little, it seems like everything I was looking at it from a different lens at that point. So anything that would happen that was uh upsetting, like or somebody would yell at me, which was every day, or you know, the RTC rep would come in

OT III Shock And Seeing Differently

SPEAKER_01 24:50

and tell me how suppressive I was because I didn't have a marketing campaign done. And there were, I I think there were about three or four times after Thursday at two. I literally walked out the back door because there you could, but then I turned around and came back.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Wow. So you were like, I'm out of here, and then like, oh, actually, maybe not. Yeah, where am I gonna go? Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

No money, no vehicle, no phone. We didn't have phones, right? Where was we gonna go?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

I had no hotel, and I'm willing to bet you'd had no contact or very little, if any, supervised contact with your family outside of Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Well, this is the other interesting part. Oh, you're gonna like this one. So my parents, I hadn't had contact with them for 14 years, right? When I was at Int, um, and before. But um when I was at Flag, they live only 50 miles from Clearwater here in Rome. Yeah. So which where I live now, they're both past since then, but I got a chance to see them because they came to Clearwater to see me, right? And I it was nice. They none, they never, ever, ever once said to me, You're in a cult, you have to leave, you need to come with us right now. They didn't do that. Yeah, because they were smart and they knew that if they said that to me, I would just dig my feet in, and they were proving me, and I probably just don't want to talk to them ever again, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:23

You wouldn't, and nor would you be allowed to.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

I wouldn't be allowed to, yes. But what nobody knew, well, they know now because I've talked about it and it's also in the book, is that um we had a phone line in the marketing building because the marketing building was separate from the rest of the organization. It was little, it was a little kind of small building across from where this they were building the superpower building, and it was its own little entity, and it had an outside phone line because vendors had to be able to call us, and the plot thickens, and I gave my mom the number, nice, and she would call me once a week for four years, once a week, and she would say Molly, and did nobody notice? Well, my juniors knew, but they were doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Oh, we in Scientology, this is called a case of mutual outrudiments, i.e., we're all doing it, so let's just not report it.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Exactly, and that's the only time that happens, yeah, right. Otherwise, it would have been reported on way before, but they wanted to do it too, so I didn't care.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

And if any one of them had gotten in trouble, they would have eventually spilled the bean. So, so wait,

Secret Calls With Mom And How To Help Someone Leave

SPEAKER_02 27:40

so for four years, you were talking to your mom every week. I'm buttons.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Well, or every other week. Okay, right. Amazing. Every time she'd call me, I know that was what helped the most. When she would call me, she'd say, Hi, honey, how are you doing? Good, how's the marketing going? Great. Um, she would ask me some questions, she would never talk about Scientology. You know, we'd love to see you if you ever have a chance to come see us. That'd be great. I love you. Click.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

I love your mom. Rest in peace. I'm sorry you lost her, but she sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

She was 99, but she was amazing. Wow. She was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And uh um, so I knew always that I had a safe place to go. Yep. And I tell people this all the time. They're like, How do I get someone out? I said, You don't. You just are there, you have to let them know you're there for them and that you don't judge them, yeah, and that you love them. And if you do that, they'll know that you're the person to go to when they have that doubt. Yep. You know, and completely. I say that to people all the time because there's no other way. There is no other way. So what happened was what had happened was that um I got approved to go to their 60th wedding anniversary. Shock of shocks, because I didn't get to go to their 50th, because of course I was behind barbed wire at the time, and nobody got to go do anything. Like, yep, your family, your mom dies, you can't go to the funeral.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

I know, I know. It's crazy. I was talking to my uncle this morning, actually, that lives in England, and I told him, I'm like, I'm so sorry, I missed my granddad's funeral. It's so senseless and stupid and infuriating looking back, like there was no good reason. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And anyway, but yeah, my dad had a heart attack and I couldn't go.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Ugh. So, so so you're approved to go to their 60th wedding anniversary.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I was approved to go for that night. And what year was this, sorry? 2007. This is when I left.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

So, but I was approved to go for that night. So I rented a little Toyota Corolla from Enterprise Rent a Car because back then Enterprise would let you would let Seaorg members rent cars for cash. Oh, isn't that wild? Yes. I mean, it's like everything aligned, right? But they would like we go off if we had a Saturday off, we could rent a car from Enterprise because they knew we'd always bring it back. Yep. And um, none of us had credit cards. It's not like we had credit cards. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

I mean, if a Sea Org member had a bank account, I never that was a miracle. And if they did have a bank account, chances are it had what, like five bucks in it.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Exactly, because all the money, extra money you had would go to like Miss Gavage's birthday present. Or remember when they would stand in line where they'd stand in line. We were getting our check, our little pay stub thingies, yep. And how much are you gonna give?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

And if you didn't, Linda Linda Succestad was the general officer, and she she had excuse my language, but she had resting bitch face always and um it would be like hand over your money.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Um yeah, yeah, you got $35. Well, 20 of it's going to miscavige's birthday party.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

And you dare not say no. If you got if you said no, you got basically hauled off to ethics right on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

You bet you did. Yeah, so anyway, I had saved a little bit of money for that because it wasn't that expensive, it was like 50 bucks to rent it for the day. This is 2007. So I drive to Lakeland to hear, and it was the most incredible event. All my family flew in from Canada and all over the place, like nieces, nephews. We were all there celebrating. Everybody, it was so much fun, and we're all sitting around the table at this restaurant, and we're just having the best time and laughing and joking, and I'm like, I forgot what this feels like, right? This is my family. These are the this is how I grew up because I had a great childhood. It wasn't like I was traumatized as a kid or something. No, no, I had a perfect childhood. Yeah, that wasn't why I got into Scientology, I just screwed up my young adulthood. But you know, but I was just shocked at the difference between what I was living and this, right? Because what I'd been taught was anyone who's not a Scientologist is lower-toned and they're just not doing well in life, and they're gonna die, and they have no spiritual. I was like, that's not what I'm seeing here. Everybody's so happy, and they and they were just so loving. So then my brother, my older brother, who's an over-the-road, who was, he passed to, but he was an over-the-road trucker, 18-wheeler, and he would travel all over the US and Canada. And he and his wife were in the holiday inn because they didn't have a house in Lakeland. And he said, Why don't you just stay

Family Anniversary High Then Sudden Blowup

SPEAKER_01 32:40

with us tonight? Because we have two beds in the hotel room. You don't have to drive home this late. And I'm like, I wonder if I can get away with this. As long as I'm at Morning Muster, they won't know that I'm gone for the night. So I did. I stayed. It was like such a comfy bed. I was like, ooh, this is nice. It's not a hard mattress. I don't have a headache from working all day and all night. Yeah, and um, I got really good sleep. I got up early in the morning, got back in the car, and I was raring to go. I was feeling great. I had this wonderful time and I was reinvigorated to clear the planet and I was driving back to Flag. I get, you know what's coming. So I get to Muster on time. Nobody knows that I wasn't there. Um, and then uh after Muster, I get this uh call to go to the auditorium because the deputy executive director, Kathy West, wanted to see me. I'm like, what does she want now? Okay. This is the most, I mean, how do I describe her? Did you ever know her?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Kathy West. I'm trying to think. I I think I knew a Karen West.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

She was a the best way I could describe her is very hard, very shrewish. You know, she'd been in Scientology a long time in the Sea Org, and it really took its toll on her. And uh she was not a happy person. Anyway, I walk in there and she just starts screaming at me. And there's always people in there, and I walk in and she's just like, rah! I'm like, oh, here we go, here we go. And she says, How dare you? I cannot believe that you went to see your family when you don't have that marketing campaign done. I'm not kidding. You're suppressive, you're ruining Scientology. And that was the moment that something deep inside me went, Oh, fuck no, I am done with you. And I just looked at her and I said, Yes, sir. That's what you say, right? And then she said, You're gonna stay up all night and get that campaign done. And I was like, Yes, sir. But in my head, I knew what I was gonna do. So I went back to my office and I said, Guys, I took, I told all my staff, you can stay till 10 o'clock, but then you're gonna go home. This is my problem, and I'm gonna deal with it. So I sent them all home at 10. And then I sat in my little windowless office for 10 more hours deciding whether to leave.

Ten Hours Alone Choosing Freedom

SPEAKER_01 35:10

That's how long it took. I sat there going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Um, and I wrote this letter and I kept rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting it. It was something to the effect of I'm done, I'm out of here, uh, don't come following me. I knew they would, but don't come looking for me. Um, I'm not coming back. And you can just blame me for everything. Just say I'm suppressive and I'm ruining Scientology and it's all my fault. I don't care what you say. Just don't follow me because I am done. And finally, I finally printed that out at eight o'clock in the morning because I knew if I didn't leave then it was going to be too late.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yeah, your window was closing. Yes. People would be coming back into work and all that.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yep. So I printed it out, left it on the desk, walked out with just my uniform on and a purse. That's all I had. Got in the car because I still had it. I hadn't turned it in from the night before. Oh, nice. Okay. And so I dro I figured there was an enterprise in Lakeland, right? I could drop it off. So I I got in the car, but I didn't get in right away. I walked up to the car and I was like, I'm really gonna do this. I mean, after 10 hours, I'm still doing that. Wow. But you know how that feels. I do, of course. Back and forth in your head, the back and forth. I'm giving up everything, I'm leaving everything behind, everything I thought was true, everything I've devoted my entire life to, that I've given up all these other things for. Nope. I guess I'm leaving. I don't know what's ahead of me, but it can't be worse than this, or maybe it can, but I'm gonna find out.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

But it it's crazy that in that moment, though, I think that even if uh and not to speak for you, but nothing could be worse than that. Even worse wouldn't actually be worse, right? Correct. Yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

So I'd finally come to that decision, and I get in the car and I start driving, and I am panicked the whole time because it's about an hour drive. And the whole time I'm looking in the rearview mirror, I'm looking behind me, I'm like, they're here, they're coming, they're coming, they're coming, they're coming. They're gonna know I'm gone. I keep looking at the watch. Okay, muster's at 9:30, and uh that gives me another half hour before they start coming after me. So I get to Lakeland and I realize I can't go to my mom and dad's house because they know where they live. I can't go to my younger brother's house, who he and his family lived in Lakeland also. Well, they still do, because they know where they lived, because they knew everything about me, of course. Of course, but they didn't know that my older brother was at the holiday inn.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

So what's your older brother's name, by the way? Al.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Thank you, Al.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

He was my uh wait till you hear this. Okay. So he was my big brother, he's 12 years older than me, six foot two, like 250 pounds, truck driver. I've always felt safe with Al, right? And um,

The Escape Drive And Where Not To Go

SPEAKER_01 38:00

but I got to the holiday in and his truck wasn't there, his his uh pickup wasn't there, and I freaked. And I went, Oh my god, they've already left. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? What am I well? I'm just gonna go up to the room and see if they're there. So I go up to the room, knock on the door, my sister-in-law opens the door, goes, What are you doing here? And I start bawling, and I said, I left, I'm not going back. She grabs me, yes me in the room, slams the door. She's like, Oh my god, I'm so happy. I'm like, I don't know if I'm happy. I don't know what I am right now, but I'm not going back. I'm like, where's Al? Where's Al? And she goes, He's not here. I'm like, oh she says, but I'm on the phone with him. She had her little Motorola razor phone. And she hands it to me and he goes, Baby sister, I've got you. They're never gonna hurt you again. I know. Makes me tear up a little bit thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

So do you know what he did? He said, So I'm about to go on a trip across the country, and I'll be out for a couple of weeks. So I'm gonna get okay for you to come with me.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

So I drove across the country in his truck for two and a half weeks. So they could not find me. Sure, they camped out in front of my parents' house and my brother's house for a week or two, but they could never get me. And then he got back for a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Amazing. I know. Gosh, man, thank, thank you, thank you, Al, for being there. Oh my gosh. And how surreal was that, by the way, going from like, oh, you know, stay up all night doing the and now you're driving in a truck for two and a half weeks all across the US. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 39:46

It was insanely weird because all I did for the first week was this stare out the window. Wow. I couldn't do anything, I was just numb. And to my brother's credit, he never tried to get into a conversation with me. He just let me do that. And what we our little routine was um he would park at a truck stop. I know every truck stop in the US by now, right? And and I noticed at the truck stops how nice everybody was, right? I'm like, this is not what I was taught. Nope. These people are really friendly. Hmm. And uh, you know, so but but what we would do is we'd

Brother Al Steps In And Disappearing

SPEAKER_01 40:30

stop at the truck stop and we'd have dinner, and then he'd go to bed early, and I would sleep uh across the two front seats with a bunch of pillows under me. It wasn't comfortable, but it was way better than what I'd been doing, right? And I would sleep there until about four o'clock in the morning when he'd wake up because he'd had to get on the road, and then we'd switch and I go sleep in his back cabin bed, which was super comfy. And then I just, you know, he had bought me a DVD player and DVDs to watch and books to read, and I just I got to just chill. Wow, for two and a half weeks. Yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Watch movies, read books. It's like you know, the things we would only dream about.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

We never got to do that, man. We didn't have TVs.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

No, we we Mark and I did, but it had to be under a blanket, and it was you know illicit. We were awesome. We were just rebellious. Mark, especially, was rebellious. And then if if anyone challenged him on it, by the way, he'd be like, Well, I'm in the Cine division, uh, where we shoot all the movies, and you know, so I have to do art series eight. So art series eight is the policy that you have to watch. Yeah, you know, he has an answer for everything. It's so smart though. When when when you're in an argument with Mark, it's the only time I would ever get frustrated with him because he has an answer for everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

That's hilarious. That just makes so much sense, though. Yeah, so yeah, then I uh ended up going back to uh Lakeland and live with my I'm just so grateful that I have family because none of my family ever got into Scientology. Because I never now this is interesting. I had I had thought about this recently. I never tried to get them into Scientology. Yeah, I didn't want to get them into Scientology. Yep. Why is that? I wonder.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Yeah, it is interesting. And it's funny that you say that. Um, I mean, in my scenario is different because uh, you know, being born into it, my siblings were all in, but I never tried to get any of my aunts or uncles or cousins into Scientology. It was um, you know, I mean, we didn't have a close relationship, but I never saw my mom certainly never tried to get her siblings in. My stepdad, um, he did try to get his sister in. But it's interesting, uh, and it makes me like, do you think that was because in on some level you knew that you didn't want that for them?

SPEAKER_01 43:08

I do think that. Yeah, I really do, because you know, it was always there was always this dichotomy in my head, like I am selling books to new people and I'm trying to get all these people into Scientology, but I don't want them to go into Scientology. Yeah, like isn't that it's just weird to think about that.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah, no, you remind me, not and again, not to get off onto my story, but I I'm fine with it.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

I remember we don't know anything about each other, even though we're each other.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

I know it's so crazy. But yeah, my brother, I mean, technically he's my half-brother, but I raised my my siblings from birth to like they were six, four, and two when I joined the C organization. And for for three years uh after we moved to America, my mom and stepdad never Put me back in school. So I was looking after them from noon until 10, 10 p.m. midnight every day. Um, while my mom worked, my stepdad worked at the Beverly Hills mission, and um they were dirt poor, uh, you know, all the money went to Scientology. Anyhow, my brother, when he was 17, I think, and I was internal executive in RTC, which basically meant that I was over the internal operations, like recruiting new staff and you know, staff training and ethics for RTC staff, all that kind of stuff. Anyway, my brother called me when I was eating dinner and said, Hey, I'm I'm thinking about joining the C organization. And I was like, Oh, okay. So, you know what I did? What I proudly admit because he was not the best student at the time. He hadn't done many Scientology courses, and I knew he would fail. Not as an evil thing. It's no, you just knew he wasn't cut out for it. I knew he wouldn't, he wouldn't make it. And and I also knew very well at that point that this would become a huge problem for my mom if he joined the C organization and then failed, because I'd already said I was gonna fail. And she was like, Well, you're gonna be on your own then. There's nothing I can do uh when I was 16. Wow. So so what I did for my brother.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Thanks, mom.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

I know, I made him what's called a project prepare. Yeah, which is basically you need to get through X, Y, and Z steps to get ready to join the C organization. Except my project Prepare was like a five-year program. Nice that he would never get through. Sorry, Robbie, but now you have three kids, even though you don't talk to me. I know you're still drinking the Kool-Aid. I love you anyway, and I did that for you. So yeah, and nobody could override it because I was the internal executive, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:05

That's right. Nobody could mess with you.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah. Oh, honey, anyway. Anyway, but yeah, okay, so so you're so you back to you. So two and a half weeks, and so by the end of that, what

Early Recovery And Learning To Rest

SPEAKER_02 46:20

like had you talked to anybody, had they, you know, so you tried.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Okay, okay, there was this one time where we were in the car, I mean in the truck, and my brother gets a call on his cell phone, and it's flag, and I'm like, how do they know his phone number? Because they can find anything, right? Right. And um, so they were trying to put on uh this woman, I forget her name now. She was my really good, good friend at Flag. She was like my best friend, and they want she wanted to talk to me, right? And he said, This is my brother on the phone. I don't know where she is. Why would she be with me? I'm a trucker, I'm going across the country. You guys just lost her. I don't know what to say, but you better tell me where she is because you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Nice, you better stop calling me. Nice, and by the way, it's so frustrating too that they do that. Like they take someone who was a good friend of yours who you might listen to to try and undermine your efforts to escape and break free, and to have a life of your own, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

And they'll do they'll try any underhanded dirty trick. But my I'm telling you, I just sometimes I feel so incredibly grateful for my I mean, I do that every day. I feel grateful for my family because uh I mean, I'm sure I would have made it on my own because I had friends in California I could have gone to see and all this stuff, but the family support was just there's they were such a uh stability for me. Yeah, like the first this is a good story. I I'm talking too much, but whatever. No, you're not at all. Please keep going. This is a great story. So I had been, I was staying in the guest room at my parents' house, they'd turned it into my room, and um so and uh I my dad had this little computer, he had his office next door, and it was this little computer, like back in 2007, they weren't like super fancy. But uh the day, like two days after I got there, I am in the office on the computer, like I gotta find a job, I gotta do something. I can't just sit here and be unproductive because that's what you're taught. You have to be productive all the time. My mother walks in and sees me doing this. She goes, What are you doing? I said, Mom, I gotta get a job. I can't just sit here. And she takes me and she sits me down on the couch. She says, Let me talk to you for a second. Do you know what you have to do right now? I said, What? She goes, sleep. That's it. That's all you have to do. You just rest and relax and get a lot of sleep because you haven't had sleep for a long time, and eat good food, and we will take care of everything. And don't you even let me catch you looking for a job for at least two months.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I know it makes me cry. I mean, right? Yeah. So that was how it started, you know, how my deconstruction started. But then I started, you know, the way that I really I mean, it's been a long process and it'll be it'll go on for the rest of my life. I know this. For sure. You know this. It's just a constant unpeeling of layers, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:40

It's not a trip, it's a journey.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

It is.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

I'm enjoying the journey now, though. I didn't enjoy it for many years.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

But now it's a good journey.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah.

Why Scientology Love Feels Transactional

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Um, but but yeah, I did not work. Um, I relaxed and watched old English TV comedies with my dad. And it was just, it was so nice to be able to reconnect with them after all those years. Think about my mother. Think about how strong she must have been. She didn't even know where I was alive for 14 years, and she never once tried to, you know, there was there were no histrionics, there was no, oh my god, none of that.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

This is a perfect example of the unconditional love that does not exist in Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

I completely agree. So I know this is kind of odd, but I was looking at the tone scale once. The scale of emotions, right? The emotional tone scale. Love isn't on the tone scale. Hate's on the tone scale.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Okay, so so not to get off topic, but I've been I just got a set of the children's books that they just oh, you did not. I did. If you want to, we could do a talk about it as a separate episode. But um, and and it's specifically important to me to expose that as of March, David Miscavige is actively this year targeting children ages seven and up. But so the ARC triangle, I was literally just thinking about this this morning, running up my mountain. Um so the ARC triangle, actually, I was surprised to see that the word love does appear in there once, but which struck me because I had looked. Um, and you're right, love is not in the language of Scientology. No, and here's where did that come from? Right. And so they've inserted it, but here's the kicker. So it outlines, and this is what's so destructive and insidious the ARC triangle, affinity, the feeling of love or liking for someone, reality, agreement, um, or you know, the the thing like no the concept that oh, we look at a wall and we agree that it's blue, so we have that reality, right? Communication is talking about things, it makes it so transactional that it breaks down the very fundamental foundation of unconditional love. And here's how because then, oh, well, I don't agree with Scientology now. Oh, boom, done, out. Yeah, ties cut, it's transactional, it is transactional, and it's just not even a question, and that's what's so insidious about it because you can disagree with somebody and still love them. You can people do it all the time, but not according to Scientology. If you don't agree with Scientology, we can't have ARC together. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, you're out of here. So they added love in. That's so interesting. Just one word, yeah. Um, you know, and they also, I mean, they use the word Scientology in these books. Um, but yeah, anyway, we'll we'll talk about that separately.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

To break it down, I saw that, Claire, and it just broke my heart when I saw what he's doing now, trying to get these kids in. Yeah, yeah. It's because they're desperate at this point because yeah, adults aren't going in. Yeah. If I'd have had the internet at 27, I would never, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

I mean, I know, I know. I I did a um a talk for a college class in Australia, and it was um fascinating to me that they asked specifically and said, Do you think that if Scientology had been created in this day and age that it would have, you know, the billions and of dollars that it has? I'm like, absolutely not. No, definitely not, for sure. No, absolutely. No way. No way. Uh anyway, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

So so that was the beginning of my becoming joyful again. I mean, I never lost the

Wrap Up Future Lives And Support Links

SPEAKER_01 54:00

joy, but it was really they tried. Yeah. They tried to, you know, they they stripped it away as best they could, but it came back.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Well, amazing. I'm so so glad. Uh thank you, Kathy West, for being an evil human and being that final breaking point that drove you out. And thank you for your strength and courage. Thank you, brother Al and your amazing mom.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

And my amazing husband that I haven't even talked about.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Yes, your amazing husband. And um, anyway, yeah. Can you believe it? We've once again reached the end of our hour.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

No, this is going too fast.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

I know, I know. Anyway, I can tell as many times as you want to come on here and we can chat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

I'm down from we could even do lives if you want. We can answer people's questions. Yes, I'm gonna open at this point.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

That would be amazing. I used to do um Women on Wednesday with Amy and Amy Scoby, and unfortunately, her work schedule has been too challenging for her to do that. But yeah, absolutely. Well, let's let's um well anyway. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I know I'm always got ahead of myself. You're welcome. Um, I will link to everything in the description. Um, if you have questions, viewers for Anne that you'd like us to cover, drop them in the comments and we'll we'll we'll talk more. I'd love to also hear about everything that happened afterwards and your amazing husband and all that, but we will save that for another day. How about that? Yeah, we will. Okay. Awesome. Until next time. I love you, Anne. Thank you for everything. Talk to you soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Xenu, Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good, behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.