What Does Independence Mean After Control - Secrets of Scientology #15

July 4th is loud, messy, joyful, and full of little traditions most people barely think about. That’s exactly why it hits so hard to realize we didn’t celebrate it at all while we were in the Scientology Sea Org. For us, it was just another workday, sometimes with a strange twist like being told to wear civilian clothes so the public wouldn’t suspect we were still on the clock. When your life is built around compliance and optics, even a holiday about independence becomes invisible.

We dig into what that kind of control does to your sense of time, your body, and your expectations. We talk about noticing fireworks only in passing on a late-night walk to the bus, the way leadership framed holidays as “pagan,” and how the outside world was painted as dangerous while, in reality, people were often kinder than anything we experienced inside. We also get personal about what freedom actually feels like after you leave a high control group: the shock of having choices at a grocery store, the long recovery from chronic sleep deprivation, and the awkward guilt that can show up when you try to rest.

From there, we move into the good stuff: first July 4th memories after escaping, building big family gatherings we never had, raising kids with normal weekends, and creating a neighborhood block party tradition that still feels surreal in the best way. We also answer audience questions touching on Sea Org pay, “civilian clothes,” religious visas, passports, and what it can take for someone to realize leaving is even an option.

If this conversation helps you see freedom differently, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And July 4th Recap

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hey guys, welcome back to the channel. Welcome to another episode of Blown for Good Scientology Exposed. I'm Mark Headley, and I am joined by my lovely wife, Claire. Here she is.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yay, yay. Good to see everybody. Thanks for joining us this fine Sunday, July 5th. We hope everyone had a safe and wonderful July 4th celebration.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Yeah, here in America.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Here in America. America.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Yeah, we had a we had a uh we have like a block party every year at our house. So we had like probably like at least fifty people showed up.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yes. It's always a very full day of festivities that has become quite the tradition.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Yeah. And we had uh we and we we we knew we weren't gonna probably be able to do any fireworks, so we celebrated pretty hard throughout the whole day instead.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

We made up for it. We made up for no fireworks with uh lots of burgers and hot dogs. Mark was the grill master, I was the party organizer with lots of help from our neighbors, so yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

It was awesome. It was all good.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Um we did um we did a podcast. We'll put up a thing that says where to go to the I guess you have to get a link. We'll put it in the description if people didn't see it. But we did a podcast uh with another channel. Again, we went we went just to do one video and then I think they ended up turning it into two because we were there for like seven hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

We were it was a long day with Julian Dory. And yeah, we have that in the slides to to talk about too. So perfect. Yeah, it was a it was it was it's always I I find it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

No, not that one. No.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

This one hang in, hang, hang, hang, give us grace today, folks. We're tired. Yes, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Um we'll put a link in the video description, but yes, it's uh somebody asking us questions we wouldn't normally ask ourselves. So uh we like to do those, and we like to it just gets us to you know, another group of people that watch another content creator.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, Trevanon says only seven hours, yeah, compared to the what was that, 12 hours on Mormon stories?

unknown 2:39

That was a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Um and we're already thinking about doing because we were we in in part one and part two with Julian, we were talking about our entire story in Scientology. But there's so much that has happened in the past 21 years since getting out that is much of it even crazier in many ways.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

So Yeah, and then but but then besides that, we wanted to take today to um answer people's questions and and speci uh especially in relation to the Independence Day.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yes, exactly. We figured we'll do a relatively short episode today, but talking about just, you know, July 4th, because we never celebrated July 4th in the Sea Organization. It wasn't a thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Yeah, is that what's this? The next slide. Did July 4th mean anything to you while you were in the Sea Org, or was it just another work day? It was literally another work day. I when when Claire asked me, I said, oh no, remember when we used to play Tucker War? And she goes, No, no, no, that was on Sea Org Day.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yes, not July 4th.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

And uh Sea Org Day happens in August.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I think it's August 11th or 12th.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Something it's a good sign we can't remember anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Well, I mean we can, but it wasn't a really a set-in-stone holiday every year. No. Some years there just wouldn't be a Sea Org Day. And Sea Org Day was just a uh a day where Sea Org members got off, but you would mostly participate in team building activities during your day off. So we were doing tuga-war and potato sack races and stuff like that. You couldn't just be like, see ya, I'm out of here, I'll see you tomorrow. You had to you had to like participate.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, you had to follow the Sea Org day schedule.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yeah, on your day off.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

But um Now we're going to do team games.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Yeah, but when you when you s when you said, oh no, mem what I don't can't remember what we did for Fourth of July, it's like, oh no, we did uh we did Tugel War. You're like, no, that was Sea Org Day, and I was like, oh yeah, you're right. And then I thought the only thing that I can think of that was different on the Fourth of July was that we would maybe have hot dogs or burgers that day for lunch.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Maybe. I don't even remember that. The only thing I remember being different is that we would wear civilian clothing instead of uniform.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

So just that way people driving by seeing us at it. I mean, it's so ridiculous in hindsight. Like we're all at work just wearing normal clothes, so that's totally normal.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, but you know what's that's right. You know what that is true. Most

The Julian Dorey Interview Update

SPEAKER_03 5:20

of the time our our dress code was based on what people driving by would see.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Right. And like as if they could even see from the road. Well, you know, we're all dressed differently. I guess it seems ridiculous in high school.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

It's like we got to do this because otherwise people will think we're working on July 4th. And we're like, we are working on July 4th.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Exactly. I know that's my point. I'm like, oh, because they're gonna go, oh good. Well, at least they're wearing normal clothes, so that means they're they can must not be working. It's just ridiculous anyway.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

It's true. When they drive by and they're like, God, those guys are they're not ever gonna people that don't know, like you'd only have to be a regular who drives by to know, oh, they're in a different clothing. Everybody else is just like, they're wearing clothes.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

They're working. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

There's they're they're not gonna think there's 200 of them walking in the same direction at the same time for a meal.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

So they weren't watching a TV show somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Right. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

So yeah, I don't I think. You can put in the comments if you're a SEO member or you are a staff member and you were in an org. What do they do do in a Scientology organization out in the middle of Kiacuck? What do uh Susie Sue and Bobby Bob Billy Bob get up to on the 4th of July? I I think in Los Angeles, the Los Angeles organizations, the big blue building called the complex in Los Angeles, I think they would do like a summer of events thing that would happen because it would be all the videos that they shot in June on the cruise ship, the Free Winds.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

They would show those like once every night or once every week. They'd show one night of the, you know, six or seven nights that happened on the free winds.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

And they would call it the summer of events. And I think that would start on July 4th. The first week of those events would happen. And they'd put out, you know, some potato salad and some celery.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Something fancy.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Some carrots, some of those little baby carrots. They put that those out on uh in Hollywood. Um okay, what's the next one here?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Uh let's see. How is this the one? Yeah. How, if at all, did the Sea Org acknowledge Independence Day? Were there ever celebrations, meals, or time off? So yes, we've kind of covered this. But yeah, same thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

I don't think there was there was no. I mean, to be to be honest, they might have also changed the tablecloths in the galley.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I don't think so. They were always those um burgundy like linoleum or whatever it's like plastic covered, uh easy to wipe off tablecloths for mica. Was it no, not for mica?

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Oh, you mean the plastic ones?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Oh, the tablecloths, not the tabletops.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

That's what I'm saying. I might they might put some of some red, white, and blue things of those out.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I don't remember that at all.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

I'm trying to think. I can't think of really anything besides the hamburger or the hot dog.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, I just I mean, yeah, if you think about it, so Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, um all of those. I I specifically remember Shelley Miscavige saying, those are pagan holidays. Why, yeah. Why are you even why is everyone even wearing civilian clothing? This is you guys are off purpose. And it was like, okay, I kind of thought you guys are the ones that issued that order, but whatever.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Okay, let's do the next one here.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Okay. What do you remember most about working on holidays like July 4th? Yeah, they did not because it was not even a a thing, like yes, sometimes we would wear uh civilian clothing for most of those, I think. But other than that, it literally did not register because it was just another day.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah, I remember one time exactly now that I'm thinking about it. Because w I used to work in the manufacturing building. And you have at night, you have to walk from the manufacturing building all the way to the other side of the property where the buses were by the by the estates, garage, whatever it was.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

And we came outside and it was like 11 30 or right before the eleven forty-five bus at night, and we saw fireworks.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Yeah, for in the town.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

And then that's when we went, oh, it must be July 4th today. Because we saw the fireworks uh uh in town going off. And we're like, oh yeah, it's 4th of July.

unknown 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

That's what they do on 4th of July in the outside world.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah. Um okay, here. Let me just pull up this comment.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Because

July 4th Inside The Sea Org

SPEAKER_03 10:06

what it's not religious.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, exactly. No, it's not religious at all.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

No.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Um there's nothing. The only um religious part is to the outside people to say, yeah, it's a religion.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah, you're not in when you're in there, no one's no one's doing religious stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

No.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

You're doing Scientology policy. The only the reason they twist everything is so they don't get in trouble. That's why. It's not there's to inside, it's not you're not doing your religion. You're just doing whatever Hover's said to do.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Okay. Were did you ever get to watch fireworks? That's what I said. We saw sometimes if we saw fireworks in the near to nearby town uh on your way somewhere, you could be like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

It was never a big deal. It was never something we were waiting to we just happened to see them and go.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Okay, looking back, what feels most surreal now about speaking on a holiday dedicated to freedom in such a controlled environment? Yeah, that's true. I never would have even put those two together in a million years. Yeah on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah. No. Now uh being on the outside, I love holiday weekends. Oh yeah. When it's a three or four-day weekend, it's like woo-hoo, yay.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Can confirm.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah, and we love we love um the celeb the tradition that we built up with our neighbors. Our kids love it. They've grown up. The the all the kids on our street love it. Um, in fact, we often have them, they'll stop by the front door and be like, is there gonna be a block party today? Like, yes, there is, and they'll be like, Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah, that is a big that happens every Friday pretty much.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

What was your very first July 4th after escaping Scientology? Like, I totally remember this.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Because you were shooting me with um fireworks at at your uncle's house. We so we were in um Missouri and Mark's uncle lives on like massive amounts of farmland. And so we were doing fireworks out there, and I can't remember what you were trying to get me with, but I remember being terrified.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

I think it was just those little snappy things.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yeah, okay. That's worth being terrified about. I was like, stop trying to throw things at me.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

I'm gonna say we've probably we've either had, we've either gone to a July 4th party or we've held a July 4th party for every single July 4th since we've been gone.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yes. We've never not celebrated.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, we always go do we do something somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yes. What surprised you most about how Americans celebrate Independence Day. Yeah. Um, I have two answers to that. Number one is that being that I was born in England, moving to the US when I was 13, I was like, wow, this is a way better celebration than the UK equivalent, which is Guy Fawkes Day, November 5th. Um I was like, this is a far more uplifting celebration. America.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Shoot off some fire fireworks into the sky.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yes. Uh I will say though that both July 4th and Thanksgiving especially, I was really shocked at how much food there is at at celebrations like this. Oh, yeah. A lot of food.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah, and that's true. Because when we did when we did parties, we it was uh uh in the Scientology at the headquarters, it was always just whatever the food they had. And then maybe sometimes there'd be some like party type food, like cheese and crackers or sodas or it's very unimpressive party food. But it would just be like, oh, this is a party. There's some sodas and some crackers and some cheese here.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Oh, there's something special happening. There's not just watered-down lemonade.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah. Gosh. I haven't thought about some of this stuff in forever.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Uh yes. Did you struggle to simply relax and enjoy without a day or enjoy having a day off without feeling guilty? Yes. We've and sure. For sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Yeah, we're way past that. It's been twenty I mean, it's been twenty years now.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Twenty-one years almost, or even even already twenty-one years.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yes. So now we embrace it thoroughly.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

And what's crazy is that when you we see something or somebody goes to one of these places and they get a video of some of the Sea World members there and we recognize them, we think, oh my God, they've been there for tw an additional twenty years getting up the busy work like for nothing. There's no payoff. They're gonna get no, they've done those films that we spent, you know, 10 years working on. They've spent 20 years redoing them a few times. It's like, oh my God, they've they've just been running in place this whole time. Yeah. For 20 more years.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I know. It's that there there's definitely a part of it that that's that's depressing. Um What normal?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Oh, like opening presents.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, what normal holiday traditions had you never experienced before leaving?

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Aaron Ross Powell, like sitting around the tree and opening presents?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah. I mean we we would open presents, but not we wouldn't sit around the tree.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

It would be like would you get me, would I get you? If if we had if we had gotten each other something.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah, we would I mean we wouldn't even get a Christmas tree.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Aaron Ross Powell No, but I'm that's what I'm saying. We wouldn't even get gifts sometimes. Right. We'd just be like, I'm broke, you're broke. Happy birthday, Merry Christmas. Claire's birthday is right around Christmas. So it's like two she's getting a two for for sure. There's not if I'm getting a gift for her for her birthday, which very rarely happened. Right?

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

And if and if I'm getting you a gift for Christmas, which rarely ever happened, you're getting one. Yeah. You're not getting two.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, and that that is something that we absolutely have embraced is celebrating every single thing we possibly can.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

When it happens on the day of like Valentine's Day, you know, let's go for dinner for a Valentine's dinner or Mother's Day or Father's Day, or you know, going on a vacation was a foreign concept.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Completely. Like going on a holiday or leaving somewhere for the weekend. That never would happen. Yeah. Ever. And even when I was little, my family wasn't my family I we I lived at a, you know, my mom and dad were divorced. So it was like there weren't a lot of I'm trying to think. Well, I think when my mom had this one boyfriend who had a sailboat, one time we sailed the Catal Catalina over the weekend type of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

And even that was like, what the what the hell are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

This is crazy.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

We're gonna we're gonna leave on a Friday and come back on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yes. Wow. Yeah. So our kids definitely are having a very different childhood than what we had for sure. Uh the only time on many levels.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

The only time I remembered going on a vacation was with somebody else's family. It was never my family doing the vacation. I was on I was with another family, like sucking on their vacation.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, we did do a three-week vacation from UK to America.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

After we left.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

No, no, I'm talking about when I was ten.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

So after my Yeah, when I was ten.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And we went to Disneyland and with my little sister at the time. She was uh one, I think. And um the main purpose of that vacation was so that my stepdad could find find a job and figure out what he was gonna do to make money to pay off his Oh before you moved there.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

Yes. Like maybe suss out what the what the situation what the sitch is there.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yes, exactly. What the options were.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

But we did go to Disneyland, that was one.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

What normal holiday traditions had you never experienced before leaving? Yeah, I think we answered that.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

What simple July 4th traditions did you come to appreciate most? Barbecues, fireworks, family gatherings, or something else? Absolutely, to me, family gatherings is the big one because like well We went for for example, when we escaped in January 2005, I had never met your entire family.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Only you'd only met my dad.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Right. That's that was it. So and your dad has four, three siblings. Three siblings.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Yeah, he has three sisters. Yep. And all of his sisters have multiple children. So I have a a lot of cousins and second cousins and a lot. Like in the fifty or over category of connected relatives.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yes. So I remember in August of 2005. So this was, you know, within the first year of getting out.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

And to be fair, we also go to a lot of gatherings with my mom's side of the family. Yes. That she does not attend, but we do.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

And there's even more cousins and second cousins on her side that we see on a much more regular basis than most of the time over the years than she does, because we go to the weddings and we go to the family reunion and we go to all those, and she doesn't necessarily come to those. Especially if we're there. It's like sort of it's like a which is more evil that she doesn't go to a family gathering or that she's in pr close proximity with us. But um yeah, we and we do do a lot of we do a uh big Fourth of July party

Holidays, Fireworks, And Image Control

SPEAKER_03 20:15

we do. We'd usually do a big Thanksgiving every single year because we would go and do that with my we would participate in my my cousins Thanksgiving celebration that they would be inviting all the other cousins to. Yes. So we'd go and we'd all do that. And we did that every single year. And then we did cr we start doing Christmas every single year.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, and so in August the of 2005, like I was saying, within the first year of leaving, your your dad's side of the family had a massive family reunion, and we had never been to one of those.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yes. And well, I had in like 1988.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Right. Yeah. And I just remember how nice they were, how accepting they were. And at the end, what because this was before we lived in Colorado. So we traveled to Colorado, and this was probably the first time that I was like, wow, Colorado is a beautiful place. There's all these amazing people, it's so nice here.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Most importantly, there's no Scientology.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Yeah. You know what's funny is that I don't know if you've seen anything on YouTube where the World Cup is going on and it's being hosted here in the United States. And all these people are going to all these little small towns and just and everybody's so welcoming and so friendly. That's exactly how it is when you leave the Sea Org.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

They tell you that everybody outside is evil and they're they're either drug addicts or they're sex workers or they're they're all that is what everybody outside Scientology is. And then you go and you meet somebody and they're like, Oh, what are you looking for? Oh, I know my brother Sam, he has a thing, and you you just like they're 100% the opposite of what they bill them as these evil, horrible people that don't know anything. Anything about Scientology. And then you're like, everybody out here is ten times nicer than you guys when you're at your nicest.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yes. In fact, the second job, so for the first six weeks, I was working as a waitress at at a local pizza restaurant. And then I got a job as an office manager for this lady that does equine did equine and farm insurance.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I mean, talk about like seven uh I mean so bizarre to make a million things different than what you mean. Being in the hole and having to escape to certain filling pizza orders and then like doing paperwork in an office, but she was like just an incredibly nice person, so much so that she is our oldest son's godmother.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah. I mean, it was it everything about it was like, wow, this is not what we expected at all.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

And she was so nice that it was weird to us how nice she was. Yes. Like, why is she so nice? And why and then we meet somebody else and then we they're really, really nice. And then we kept meeting all these people, why is everybody being so nice? It's weird. Like what's what's up? What's up? That's how it was to when we got to California, we found out where all the the not nice people were. There that's where they were that we noticed. But um but I remember when we moved from California and we moved to Colorado, and I walked into a Home Depot, and the and he in California, if you're at Home Depot, I used to be a contractor. I used to build a lot of stuff, and you go in there and you're looking for something you can't find it, you can't find no employees either. They they just run from the customers. Anyway, in Colorado, it's the exact opposite. You walk in the store and you're accosted by every other employer. Like, hey, can I help you find anything? And then just like, hey, dude, take it easy. Maybe buy me a drink first. You know, like, whoa, back off a little bit there.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Remember the first time we went to Costco in Colorado, and we were like, what is going on? Oh, they're trying to box up our groceries.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Yeah, they don't let they don't make you that was the other thing here. In California, the person checking out your groceries is not putting anything in any kind of bags or carts for you. That's like you're you're that's your job in California. That's 100%. So when we got here and they're like putting stuff in the cart, you're just like, uh okay. I guess they do that here on their end.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

We were like, is this guy trying to rob us or what's the deal? And we're like, oh no, he works here and he's this is what he does. This is his gig.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

I just when I was watching YouTube and I saw some of these videos, they just have just different people from different cultures coming over here and trying barbecue or you know, just going, uh, this is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Um that is how leaving the Sea Org is when you go outside. And even it's the same thing if you're in an even in Europe. Even in Europe, people on the street are nicer to you than they they are in Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Was there anything about ordinary family holidays that felt unexpectedly emotional after you escaped? Um for me, that is like attending anything that our kids do. I just cannot stop crying.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

I know it's really kind of crazy when it was like, oh, uh, we would say, oh, the da-da-da-da is doing then. They go, Oh, when is this first game? And you're just like, uh, next Tuesday, and they're like, oh, we'll come. You know, and you're just like okay. Yeah. I can't, okay. I see how that can be.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

And we always we also did that for all your cousins' kids.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Whatever they had something, even if they when we were in California and they were coming to California to play some big tournament or something, we would drive down to La Jolla or you know, wherever it was to go go to the one one or few other games or whatever. But yeah. But um Yeah, you kind of like I want to say in it's just really hard from the Sea Org point of view. But I we didn't have that really we didn't really do that kind of stuff when with my own family before I was in the Sea Org. So it was just kind of like we're just here doing our thing. We don't go anywhere. Right. And my dad would say, Oh, there's gonna be this. We should go, and then it would always be we just didn't have enough money, or if if he could swing it, we would drive there in his car. So we would just drive his car from California to Kansas City for the week and just do that and then come back.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

But um I remember not I think I was thir thirteen, twelve or thirteen, thirteen before I ever got on a plane before I ever flew on a plane anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

And you reminded me too, like the it was so painful to try and take time off in the Sea Org. Um, like do you remember a c so there's two memories that came to my mind. Number one, um, your dad would always tell us when he was in California, and like one time, the only way we could get time off, we didn't even really get time off. We just took our sleep time and drove to visit him, and we got there at like four o'clock in the morning, Port Bernie. Like thinking back on it now, I know it's so cringy.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

We're like, we can't see you during the daytime, right? But we could meet you at a Denis and Denny's in the middle of the desert at three or four a.m. And we would go, we would have dinner with him literally at four a.m. Yes. Like a Denny's or whatever, whatever restaurant, Marie Calendar's. And then we'd be like, okay, nice to see you. And then we would drive back and go to sleep for an hour, and then get up and go back to work. And you'd just be like And and even that, you're right. We some folks would know, like maybe our close workers would know, hey, I'm gonna go try do this, but we didn't do it with approval. We would have probably never gotten approval to go drive and have uh dinner with my dad at you know, three.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Four o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

That's not gonna happen. That's even like even see even to propose that in what's called uh it's called completed staff work. That is the official form that L. Ron Hubbard deemed that you needed to get approved before doing something that's like not on the norm. Yes. But if even writing that and submitting that, you'd you're like, oh no, I'm gonna get in trouble for even asking to do this.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Right. Yeah. The format for completed staff work is situation. What's the situation? Well, the situation is I my my dad is in town and I would like to take two hours to go have dinner with him. Data. I will have my post covered by Billy Bob while I'm gone and da-da-da-da. Solution approve that I go have dinner with my dad.

First July 4th After Escaping

SPEAKER_03 28:55

So during my sleep time.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Right, exactly. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

So I don't waste a one minute of post time.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

It's exhausting, even thinking about. But the other example that you rem this reminded me of is when your dad got married in Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

And you went and your sister Stephanie went, but my completed staff work was disapproved.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

And I was not allowed to go.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

And even on that one, uh mine was sort of like on the teetering on the yes or no. Like it wasn't really approved, but they knew that I did it.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

You'd I think some people had approved it, but it hadn't been signed off by the final person.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

I said it was approved. It's like not by the final person. Like, well, oh well, I'm gone. I'll be back in two days. Suck it. Didn't you get called back early? I did. I I remember I I particularly got in a ton of trouble on that one because there was something going on, and of course, Dave Miscavige came down and asked some questions or something happened, and it was like the one person who knows ain't here, and that's not good because that means no one's gonna be answering.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Speaking of which, it strikes me, even just having this conversation, how much we were like ships passing in the night.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Like we never talked about anything post-related.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

No.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Never in a work related.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

It was just always like it was basically when are you gonna come home? Yeah. Are you gonna come home?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Do you want something from Jack in the Box? Or Jack in the Crack, you used to call it.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

And I don't know, that was and did you get paid? Because I didn't get paid, and I need some dough.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

I need some money.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Yep, that was about it. Are are you still restricted to the base?

SPEAKER_03 30:49

That would be a common that was really m that was most asked of me.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

For many years I was restricted to the base. If you added up, you know, six months here, five months here, two months there, one year here, where I just wasn't allowed to go home. I had to sleep under my desk or sleep up above a hallway or so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

So fun, fun, fun.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Next one.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

How did your understanding of freedom change after leaving Scientology? Oh, completely um I mean, there's layers to that. Freedom to speak out, freedom to share our experiences, freedom to have children, freedom to do whatever job we want on whatever schedule we set.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Freedom to do anything. Anything. Yeah. It's weird when you think that's why when I think of those guys still there, I'm thinking, you guys have no idea what it's like to just do whatever you want. Right. You know not have to answer to anybody about anything and not waste your time on something so silly as what they're doing over there.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yes. So do you remember the movie The Hurt Locker with um Jeremy Renner? So at the end of that movie, as I remember it, it's been year I saw it when it first came out, but at the end of that movie, I think there's a scene where he walks into a grocery store and it's like the way it it portrays the overwhelm of like all these choices to me, that is so similar, has so many parallels to the experience of a Sea Rec member. Like the first time you go to a grocery store and you, you know, obviously when you first get out, I mean, we didn't have all the money in the world by any stretch of the imagination, but even having $40 to spend at a grocery store and just being able to get whatever cereal you want, or whatever, you know, or even just the joy of like uh remember the first few times I I I was you know figuring out, oh, what are we gonna have for dinner? And then I would make like fish and chips and be like, oh, we're gonna have brownies for dessert, and be like, oh my gosh, the like like sensory overload of all this food and choice.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Basically, for twenty or for fifteen years, we ate a menu that was the cheapest menu you could cook for a thousand people at a time. It was those were the meals we were eating. The standard fare spaghetti, you know, hot dogs, hamburgers, chicken, fried chicken. We had so much chicken, right? Chicken chicken fried rice, fried chicken, chicken sandwich, whatever, chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken. Um and that was it. That's all we just that's that's what we ate. There was not a lot of variety of like, oh, you're having some crazy dish. The even the fried rice was like, if there were if they added some vegetables to it, it was like woo-hoo.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

It's like, oh, I have two peas in my serving of fried rice.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Oh, goodness. What freedoms do most people take for granted that felt extraordinary to you after leaving?

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Yeah, I just think at anything you can do where you're not being told what to do, or even how how to sleep, when to sleep, where to sleep. It was it was always a struggle that if you were if you could get seven hours of sleep, that was sort of like That was luxury. That was like the holy grail of a night of sleep.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And most often the only time you'd get seven hours is if you have to get a security checked.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Interrogated the next day.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

We want you to go to bed on time tonight so we can interrogate you tomorrow. Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

So your engagement. Right.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Sleep good tonight. Sweet dreams. Sweet dreams, Bucko. You're getting interrogated tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

But it's funny that because of that, like um it was an a built-in negative association with getting sleep. I hadn't even thought about that.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Um I just remember sleep being like the most valuable commodity in existence. Yes. Because I thought it was a luxury You were because it was so used to to four or five hours.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

And four or five hours for just years and years and years.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Yeah. It starts to get like uh There were there was a after Marty escaped and I got in a lot of trouble, that's when I so for six months I was restricted to the property. I was getting like zero to two hours sleep a night. I had my dining privileges revoked. That's when I was living on protein bars and lost like tons of weight. Uh nothing like an enforced diet. Um But like anytime I would get to sleep, it was like the only reprieve, the only mental like shutoff.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

It was like uh like w a lot of times if David Miscavige would be in Florida, then he wouldn't be there at the international base, and everything would kind of go like there would be like a like everybody take a break for a second. He's not here. And if he left like on a Thursday, it would be like if I go to s if I go to time go to bed on time on Friday night, I could get up like right before the bus leaves, and I could probably get like six and a half hours of sleep. Seven and a maybe seven, maybe, maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

I remember one time um I had been working like I think I hadn't slept in seven days straight.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

And I finally got to go home, and it was right b when I was changing between gold and moving into religious technology center.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Yeah. So I went home at you went home on the gold schedule, but you came in on the No, I went home at 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah. You were restricted to the property, so you weren't there.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

I I fell asleep, and because like because I was in this in-between zone, nobody knew where you were.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Nobody knew exactly what I was supposed to do. One org thought you were at the other org, and that org thought you were at that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

And I distinctly remember. So again, I got home at 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

At 6 p.m. the next day.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Is when you woke up.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Gil Llewellyn was banging at my door because he was the security watch guy.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

And he was like, Yeah, somebody's asking where you are and what's the deal. And I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_04 37:24

And then you're like, oh, I'm coming in. I'm just gonna go back to the next one.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, I'm getting on the next bus. Yeah, it's all good. I was like, holy moly.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I way overslept.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

I c I can remember that sometimes that would happen on the

Food, Family, And New Traditions

SPEAKER_03 37:40

shoe crew because we would go out of town all the time, or we'd go to Norton studios and we would be away from the property.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

And so they were like, oh, are they in LA or are they here? And that is when there many people did kind of sleep s slip out of their GTFO because uh somebody thought they were in LA, but then somebody thought they were at the base, so then you're like, oh, I don't know where he is. Like, oh, he's long gone, that's where he is.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Yeah, he he got a heck of a start. All right. Did we miss a question there? No, I just how has raising your children with normal holidays been healing for you? Oh gosh, yes, so on so many levels. Sometimes, you know, especially as our kids have become teenagers and we've hit challenges, it's har you know, we obviously are not raising our kids remotely how we were raised. But also, sometimes it's like, well, you guys have it, you ha have no idea how good you have it.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Oh, yeah, no. When they're getting like anything that is normal, kind of um having friends over and going out and taking them here, taking them there, you're just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

This is like I was I was talking with Leah about that, and she brought up a good point, I thought, which was that like that's not their fault that they have it good, that they don't know how good they have it.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

I know, but literally, even our guys compared to her, her daughter, it's a whole world of difference between those two levels of insanity.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Holy moly, that girl's got Leah wrapped around her finger. Let's go to the next one.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

She's such a sweetheart, though.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

Shout out.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

We love you, Sophia. What's something your kids experience every July 4th that you never could have imagined when you were in the Sea Org? Oh, I mean, the whole thing, the whole block party that we did yesterday, this is our seventh year in a row. We had done some before that, so it's not like it's only the seventh time, but but consecutively since um 2019, I guess, or 2020, we've we've done this giant block party, and we get we brent a water slide and a bounce house, and we grill all day long. We clear out our our entire garage and set up like all these tables. We do potluck, people bring all kinds of goodies.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Yeah, it's a pretty like bl blowout, you know, party. And the kids love it because they invite all their friends. Yes. And then they get to hang out, and then there's all the neighborhood friends and kids, and so it's a big and there's always new faces every year.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

There's new people. We're like, who's this person? Like, oh hi. I I'm people there yesterday and never did meet. And they're like, Oh, um, you know, who do you know here? I'm like, well, this is our house. Yeah. Welcome. Yeah. We know us.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Yes. So that's fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yes, awesome. Did escaping change how you think about patriotism or Independence Day itself? Absolutely, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

I I have much greater appreciation for just every aspect of it, and even just having the freedom to celebrate that and yeah, all of that. If someone in the Sea Org today says, we don't really need holidays, what would you say to them? No, the interesting thing is no one in the Sea Org actually says that. Well, when other than Shelly Miscavige saying that they're pagan holidays.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

When I went to their there's a video on the uh on the interwebs of me going to the base and with a Danish film crew and with this guy named Robert Dam.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

And when I was talking to, they're screaming and yelling, I'm showing pictures of the kids and us at like Disneyland, at Disney World, and here's this, and I'm just showing us on vacations. And I was like, I can just do what I want when I want. And one of them said, We do whatever we want whenever we want. And I was like, Really? Really? Is that how it is? You guys just gonna take a vacation next week? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

But it was like one of those things where they're like telling themselves, we're doing what we want. It's like, sure you are. Sure, you want to work until midnight every night on some dumb thing that's gonna get thrown in the garbage by David Miscavige the second he sees that is the m that is the craziest thing. Is the a lot of these people that are there are staying up all night to do something that's just gonna be rejected. Just that the chances of it being rejected or not even seen are 99 percent out of out of a hundred percent is chances. It's a complete waste of everybody's time. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Right. It has absolutely zero impact on anybody.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

I literally cannot think of anything that we did in that 15 years that has uh amounted to anything in in uh in the world outside of Scientology. And I go, Yeah, it's just ridiculous. All the things we made have been replaced, all the things we produced have been thrown away and not allowed to use anymore, and you have to use a new thing. It's just like everything was a total waste. And when you're there, it's this is the thing that's the funniest. When you're there, you're irreplaceable. Yep. But after you go, no one ever replaces you. It's like the no then it doesn't happen. It and it's like and then whatever you did is no longer being done. Yeah. And it makes no difference to anything. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

So we were there, you know, 15 years, basically, right? So we've been out 21 years. And now, like, I think about the projects you've finished or you know, the the clients I work with on accounting and the the work that we do, and then our volunteer work.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Even down to like, okay, of course, it's incredibly meaningful to us every single time we help a person get out and start over. It's like amazing. That's volunteer work that we do for free on this outside of our regular day jobs.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

That we don't have to do.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

We never had to do it. And to be fair, we were doing it way before there was an aftermath foundation. We were doing it. We had done it for years ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

We just not formally. We it was just the thing we did, and everybody else who was out knew that, and they'd send people to us and we'd help them out.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

The underground. Railroad or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

It wasn't even a s a formal thing in any way. It was just oh, this person got out. Ooh, what do they know how to do? Oh, they could work with these people. We'll call those people up. Hey, can this guy work for you? Yes. Okay, great. It was just like that's how it went. Okay. Next one.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

What does freedom mean to you personally, not politically, but personally?

SPEAKER_03 44:25

I think we pretty much covered that.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

We've covered that well, yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Come on. Who wrote these questions? Interwebs, comments?

SPEAKER_01 44:32

If you could ever go back and speak to your Sea Org selves on July 4th, what would you say? GTFO. Oh my goodness. Yeah. What was your first independence? Or first major holiday like after leaving Scientology? What surprised you most? Oh my gosh. I think that first one was just like a three having three days off was like, wow, this is incredible.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

I know. And also the fact that we would sometimes we'd plan, oh, we're gonna do this and we're not gonna work, and we're gonna that we're just gonna do all this other stuff. And you even doing that was kind of like, oh, it's kind of nice not to work for a few days and just take off and do something else.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Or another one that it r this reminded me of, it wasn't specifically July 4th, but you had gone back to LA.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Oh, I just wanted to see. Oh, sorry, there's another comment.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah. Um to LA and took a job. And even just having the freedom, like remember, I flew out to visit you for a weekend.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

And we, you know, we just didn't have a lot of people. Oh, when I was working there before before I moved back.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Yes. Um but yeah, just having that ability to just fly and go spend the weekend with you and you know, but I'm saying that's like a it's just I I really wish the the people that were in wouldn't think it's a trick. Like, oh, you could just do like they think uh I'm trying to trick them into leaving. It's like no, it's not a it's not a trick. Yeah. It's you really will could just be have your life. Yeah. And you wouldn't uh have to answer to these crazy people doing this crazy stuff. And it's sort of like you when I was showing them the pictures of the kids and everything, I was like pleading, like, guys, come on, you don't this is ridiculous what's going on here. And then when we found out from Roanne L Ron Hubbard's granddaughter, that she left after that incident happened, and one of the guys that was out there on the highway was like, I should have left when Mark left. Yep. I should have left when Mark left.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah, but you know what? And that that's for if if any of those people ever watch this video, I would say it's never too late. It's never too late. It's never too late.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

But the your main regret will be how long you waited. I guarantee you.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Absolutely. Um other Scientologists are not. Oh, and sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Oh, this is the person who asked that question.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Um are we supposed to come to the No, this is a a uh but hold on, there's one other thing. Even just the freedom of having a vehicle and being able to drive wherever you want to. Well, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

It's so impossible to it's it's almost impossible to communicate how free you are because you have zero freedom in that place. Yes. Like there's no freedoms. So the fact that you have so many when you leave, it's not even you even if you were in a country that had didn't have as much freedom as we have in the United States, you're still a million times freer than inside the C organization. It's kind of insanely crazy how little freedom you have in there. And you don't and you never think about it until you realize how much freedom we have.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, and even the things that we did think were freedoms, in retrospect, they weren't freedoms at all. Like we're going, oh, well, on Sunday we got two hours to do our laundry.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

We get to do whatever we want.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Do you even hear yourself talking right now? Like two hours on Sunday to do your laundry. You're free to do your laundry? Yeah. Really?

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Like, I don't have anyone a baby.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

I don't have anything to do with laundry a freedom currently. In my current life, I do not consider that a freedom. Okay. Um done with that. We're done with that. We're moving on. We hope we answered all your freedom-related questions. This is the first time.

SPEAKER_04 48:38

If you were playing the BFG Freedom Game and you took a drink every time we said freedom, you're gone right now.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Happy July 4th. Uh, Comedy for a Cause. So we are very happy to let everyone know that March 17th, 2027, which by the way, for anyone not paying attention, is St. Patrick's Day. Uh, we will be having our second annual Comedy for a Cause event at Comedy Works South in Denver. Yay!

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Yay! We have such a great one. Yes, we want to make this a regular occurrence. We've already locked up the date, so we've got it, we can do a lot more planning for this one, and we can do a lot more ticket sales, and we're gonna have it's gonna be fun, and we're gonna have some special guests again. Um and we were trying to get some really, really good ones.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

So, and because we're doing it, oh my god, what is going on with this device?

SPEAKER_01 49:36

I silenced all of my devices.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Um anyway, we're gonna have a blast. And um, yeah, we want to make sure everybody knows now.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yes. So we can oh, and that reminds me too. This past week, uh the latest

Time Off Was A Battle

SPEAKER_01 49:55

newsletter from the Michael J. Render Aftermath Foundation was sent out. So if you haven't seen that, it's on the website, I believe, and you can also sign up on the website for future newsletters. Yes. But um, there's lots of volunteer opportunities for this event and everything else, so we're excited.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

And there's new Zenu and the Bonnie Pages.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

This is the Clara is the best.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

This is the 2026 tour collection. Not to be confused with the 2025 collection. Yes. Which I think I'm not sure. I think we should some people like to go back and buy previous years tour concert uh t-shirts. Yeah. So I think we'll leave the 20 uh 25 ones up there. And um and we might be able to do like some seasonal stuff. I know somebody really, really liked those ugly Christmas uh uh sweaters we had.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Yes, the body thitons.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

Yeah, so we might reactivate those things. We we we didn't get a lot of sales on those, but somebody uh requested to put them back. So we'll see if we can put them back. Um okay, is that the end? I think that's the end. Holy made it to the end.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

We did, yay! Um so we've got to do a giveaway.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

Okay, so let's do the question and comments to give anybody if you if you want to enter our today's giveaway where we're gonna have. Oh, he's just oh, he's greedy. We're gonna give this the giveaway, right? Oh no, she's changing it all around now.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

He knows how to read my thought.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

What are we doing here, Harry?

SPEAKER_01 51:36

We're gonna do one of the new shirts. The the Z doo and the the one of the new merch shirts. So if you comment any comment, you can pick something from the 2026 um World Tour Collection.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Yes, exactly. Now, any comment will do. You can just say, yo, from Connecticut. That's a comment. That'll work.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Or you can even say comment.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

You can say comment. Some people do that. That that's repeating.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

If you say comment five times, that does not change your odds of winning. Yeah, it's an automatic thing. One comment.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Automatic thing. Okay. So if you got some starred comments here, here.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Questions.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Okay, question. If you had to wear normal clothes sometimes so the outsiders wouldn't be suspicious, were you forced to use your fifty dollars a week to buy modern clothes if you joined the Sea Org in the 70s? Japan of Green Gables. So we've talked about this before. No. I mean, I I did use my fifty dollars to buy clothes. So my clothes weren't from the 1970s.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

I understand, but you didn't have 40 outfits to pick out a July 4th outfit. Oh no. You had to very, very like most people, I'm gonna say most people that were in the Sea Org that smoked and drank coffee, that's the entirety of their source Sea Org pay would just barely pay for cigarettes and coffee.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

So there's not a lot of money left over to spend on clothes, especially if you don't really wear them that often anyway.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

Uh there were people that when we wore what were called civilian clothes, they had one or two outfits.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

So if we had to wear civilian clothes on Saturday and Sunday, they had exhausted their civilian clothes wardrobe for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

And there were people when we had really fancy events, and you were supposed to just wear like a, you know, like a button-down shirt or maybe a a suit jacket. Some of these people would show up in some 70s garb, and everybody there was a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Yeah, like that one guy had that brown suede jacket that had fringe uh fringe like long foot-long fringe that went all the way around the back and all the way down the arms.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

It was like Saturday Night Fever up in here. It's like, dude, seriously. But so, but there were people who had stuff from the 70s, there were people that had stuff from the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

It was it was a lot. It was a lot. There was a lot of people that were like that too. I would say at least 30 to 40 people would dress at least a decade or so out of time, out of out of place.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Yes. Yeah. Okay. For sure. Okay. Um I just saw your new interview with Julian Dory, over 100,000 views. Are you doing a follow-up soon? It was a great interview. Thank you for watching that. And yes, we will link to the Julian Dory part one interview in the video description. But yes, there is a part two. Like we said, when we recorded this back in April, it was seven hours. So part one is three hours. So there's another four hours coming, and we have more things that we're working on planning for the future. So yeah, really great conversation. Um both Julian and Deef, I think his name is. Yeah, they were it was a it was a a long day, but really fun.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Yeah. And it was actually we it was a little weird because it's not normally how we do podcasts, but we kind of started like right in the middle, and then at the at the end of the video that we did that it's out right now. Basically that we went back and started at the beginning of our stories and told them. So we it was just kind of what we got started talking about when we were there. It was just like, oh, we're rolling. Okay, we we've already been talking. So it's all good.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Um okay, loving the freedom chat, checking in from southern Utah. Good to see you, Jamie. Thanks for joining us. Nice. Mark and Claire, do you remember the first SP party you had at a lake outside LA years ago? Tori Magoo, yes. See, we're kind of famous, and I've always thought that this is why we have always been on OSA's.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

Oh, we're the worst for OSA.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Because we just bring people together. You and I both love doing that.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Yeah, we had these parties in LA and we called them SP parties. Yes. And we would go um to Pyramid Lake is the lake that we went to outside of this, north of Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

And we would bring we had two jet skis. My I had one and my friend had one. Yeah. We would bring them on a trailer and we would throw basically a giant party um at the beach, and we're just like, bring, bring whoever, come, who, come with whoever. And I remember I remember there was a guy that I used to talk to on the message boards that I was like, hey, if you want, you can come to this party. And um, and that ended up being Jeffrey Augustine was the one who came to the party. And um, and he was like wanting to talk about this. I was like, dude, we're we're here to party. We're not here to talk about this nonsense. We're here to party. We can talk about a little bit of the nonsense, but mostly party. Um, but yeah, we I remember those, Tori. Those were loads and loads of fun. Yes, I actually remember we had James.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Oh, and and happy birthday to Tori. We did a video for her live stream saying happy birthday. And I was saying how the the first time I'm I remember meeting Tori was in the early anonymous days at the protests, and then we went to her house and we met all these people, and yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Shout out to Tori.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yes. She just turned 79.

SPEAKER_04 57:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

Yeah, I remember one time we had an SP party like on Saturday, and Janice was having a party in Culver City or Santa Monica on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

And I remember I was up all night Friday because you had to get up to the lake at like four in the morning to get in line to be able to get a spot for a jet ski on Pyramid Lake.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 57:54

And so then I was up all Friday, uh, Friday night, up all Saturday night from packing up and breaking down the whole thing from Saturday, and then didn't get any sleep Saturday night, and then went to her party on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

And I think even Thursday night you were up all night finishing the job you were working on at the time. The you were doing weird Al Yankovic.

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Yeah, it's just like I hadn't slept for like four days, and the only and then and then I was like, how ironic that I'm staying up to have all these parties for the to do all these SP parties. And I'm pulling all nighters to do it.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yes. Okay. Fun, fun, fun. We've got some more comments to cover.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

If you st they start, here we go.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Yep. Okay. Are the Sea Org members here on religious

Freedom, Sleep, And Everyday Choice

SPEAKER_01 58:40

visas visas have any knowledge of the freedoms afforded to us in the Constitution Bill of Rights, or are they kept in the dark?

SPEAKER_03 58:47

Yeah, I don't um I don't know how they do that with these guys.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Yeah. I'm sure that they don't know what their rights are.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

They they think they're getting a a a great deal coming to the U.S. and then when they get here, and either they try to escape, but then it it gets very, very messy. We've seen cases. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

We have they basically have to go to the embassy of the that that represents their country to basically be like, I got tricked. They told me I was gonna come here for the this religious thing. I've just been cleaning hotel rooms for eight years. Right. And I ain't never really done anything. But they're getting three hots and a cot, and that's better from whatever situation they came from. So in some cases, they kind of are cheating the system. They get to be here in America. Well, they're not Scientology is understand, but they're getting fed and they're they're allowed to stay here. Yep. But they're not really free to go just go and do whatever they want. They're kind of stuck in that situation with Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 59:54

Uh, here we go.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

Catherine says, I remember one year when they let us go Christmas shopping before the Christmas bonus was paid. Oh my gosh, yes, totally been there. I know, it's ridiculous. It's like what a waste of time. Send us your York Member shopping with no money.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

It's eight dollars and eighteen cents. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

It's like, oh honey, I got you some paper clips for Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

I remember one year and we I think we got a hundred dollar bonus at Golden Air Productions.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

And we all got on these buses and we all went to Cabazon.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

And which was like an outlets mall in the middle of the desert, basically. Nothing really around it. One hotel's there now where they have like gan uh Indian casino or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

Didn't we go there one year just for like oh, yeah. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

But I mean, after we got out, we went there one time to go shopping.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:49

Oh yeah, we did just to see what it was like.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

I always I it was painful to me going to the Well, that's what I was just about to say.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

You got a hundred dollar bonus to buy all your Christmas presents.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

And everybody's talking about this Cabazon, like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm like, okay, whatever. I've never heard of this thing. Cabazon, whatever. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yeah, what is this Cabazon you speak of?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

We get there and it's uh it's an outlet wall with like a giant food court in it. And I the first thing I remember is like, oh, I'll think I'll get uh a this present for my dad and this present for my mom. And I went in there and I saw this really cool thing my dad would like, and I looked at it and was like, that's $147. And I was like, huh. Okay. And then I looked at something else. It's like, oh, that's $80. And I'm like, how am I supposed to buy all these different presents when everything is so much more expensive? And then I basically got cards in the end. The only thing I could afford to get everybody was barely the cards. I was under $100. And then I go to that outlet mall, uh, the food court, where every it's like, oh, we're gonna meet here before we leave. And I go there and I look at the prices of the thing, I go, damn, I can't even buy any food at this joint. You know? There's nothing I can afford.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

And that was like in 1991 or 1992, probably when we were like, Yeah, I just remember I would never let myself think the thought through, but the interaction with the real world and like because I I like to go shopping before I was in the C organization, you know, I would like it was something I enjoyed. And so having that little taste was it was painful.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:27

Yeah. Well, you also the Beverly Hills mission was like around the block from the Beverly Center.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

So you were like I would go there. We were used to the best thing ever. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

As a mall.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

Even though I couldn't, I would just go window shopping and I didn't have money to buy things there. But I would I loved that mall. I loved walking around and just seeing everything and the people and you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Yeah. Anywho.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:55

The only reason I like that mall is because there was a DePesh Mode riot that occurred right outside that mall in 1990. It was pretty amazing. Like they shut down LA because there's just too many people trying to get records signed.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:08

Okay. Are we uh ready? Oh, we got a super chat in here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Oh, nice. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

Same person we just answered the question from. Thank you. Three salt life.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

Yes, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

Here's one.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Okay, what would happen if they went to the police and say that somebody was holding their passport? I mean the ministerial workers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

Yeah, that's probably what they could that's I would say that that's most likely how they're getting them back. It's going to the police or going to the uh embassy. Either one of those is sort of going to do the same thing, like, hey, I'm trying to leave, but they have all my stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

The trick is helping them to realize that that is an option because the programming in Scientology is, of course, completely against that. But anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

Yeah. Um here's a really important question.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

Who is the DJ at your party?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Yeah. A party list.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

Mark and I, yeah. Uh we love Amazon playlists for our parties. They have really good. This is Claire.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

When she says we, Claire.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

Right here, folks. I got you. I got many compliments on my playlist yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

We love Amazon. No, we don't. You do. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Mark just plays DePesh Mode full time. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

I put on a Depeche Mode mode.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

That should not come as a surprise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Oh, look at this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Uh, my first live. Yay. So happy to have found your channel. Hello from Cincinnati, Ohio. Awesome. Well, great to see you here. Thanks for joining us, and thanks for for dropping in in the chat. We appreciate it. We always love seeing new people here. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

Perfect. Okay, we're going to do the giveaway. Let's flip over to giveaway mode.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Giveaway mode. And this is uh anything from our new Zenu 2026 Xinu and the Body Thetans merch. You can pick which one you like.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

I gotta tell you guys because I gotta tell you this all the time. This is StreamYard's thing. It just goes through the comments. If I don't win, it's rigged. I didn't put that up.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Clara for good. I love it. Look at that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:10

She did her own. She's sidekacking the stream. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Who will win the 2026 Xenia and the Homeboys? Xenia and the Body Things. Chelsea Rama.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

8,400. Nice. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

There you go. You're the big winner. Yes, send me an email.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Claire at blownforgood.com. Yay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

Exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

With your address and with the item you'd like, and we'll get it taken care of.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Yeah. Okay. Now we'll say who was here. We'll do some shout outs with like we did.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Hi all from Alley in England. Nice. Greetings from North Carolina. Betsy Sue, Trevanon. Good evening from the Netherlands. Greetings from Santa Monica. Hi from California. Toons Malloy. Happy Sunday from New Mexico. Hello from Washington. From Avondale, Arizona. Nice. Hello from Los Angeles. Hi from Willamette Valley, Oregon. Happy Sunday from Hollywood. Nice. Hi, y'all from South Carolina. Nice. Still me 05. Good morning from Australia. Nice. Starkey222. Hello from Winnipeg. Nice. Thank you for joining us. Loving the freedom chat. Checking in from southern Utah. Hello from Washington State. Knit knot with blisters. Okay. Hi from Norfolk, England. Matt Denny in the house.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:43

They're knitting so much they got blisters. That's what that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:46

It's a knitting. A knitting addiction. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Greetings from Canton, Ohio. Good to see you. Love Food Kitchen. What a great name. Chelsea Rama.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:57

Because Fosters.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

I didn't see my name with the losers, even. Oh dear. Well, um, it it is automatic on the uh the entries, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

So it doesn't necessarily show everybody that commented that was in there. Yeah, exactly. I was watching a music channel today and they had a depeche mode mini special. I always think of Mark. Thank you, Harvey. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

Yeah, they banned Depeche

Comedy Event, Newsletter, And Merch

SPEAKER_03 1:07:25

Mode at the International. This is what somebody told us that left many years after the year. But a reliable source, nonetheless.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

And it did not surprise me one bit because everybody associated Mark. Because Mark used to run the all hands to set up the dining hall. So like they we would move all the tables and set up the chairs for briefings, and from when we'd have to listen to an El Ron Hubbard lecture on Saturday night and all that. Mark would run that. And so I would control the music. Yes. You would always be have the loudest voice, you would say, set it up.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

And then DePesh Mode would play. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:05

And they had no choice. They just had to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

There was no musical freedom there.

unknown 1:08:13

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

No. You were uh running a dictatorship on the setup. How I wish I could have a chat with Billy Sheehan. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

You know, so Billy Sheehan did something really crazy in the early anonymous days when there were anonymous protests at the Scientology locations. Um Billy Sheehan came out and was just answering questions for people, but he didn't have approval to do it. He was kind of just being rogue doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:41

And um and I remember that I was um seeing a uh I my I my back I had severe back issues from all the craziness inside of Sea Org. And I was seeing a chiropractor, and one of the chiropractors uh chiropractors' assistants um had a relationship with Billy Sheehan. She was just dishing full time. As soon as they found out I had something to do with Scientology, she was just dishing full time about Billy's L. Ron Hubbard room in his his house that has all the L. Ron Hubbard books and all the courses and all the CDs and she's like, you can't go in there and touch anything. It's his like shrine to L. Ron Hubbard. But it was about the same time as that was happening. Yeah. So um Hi from Toronto.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

Nice. Love and life, good to see you. Um, Satan's Tatan. Hello from London, nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:37

Oh, I'm uh you're oh you're hi from Toronto.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

Yeah, there we go. Hello from London, nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:42

Yeah, I ran out of starred questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Oh, okay, awesome. Well, we're good. I think we made it to the end, folks. Oh, nice, thank you. And then there's one there. Thank you. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:55

Um and then this last one I just saw that they do do this.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

Question Did the local orgs or even the LA one ever do community events for the fourth?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:03

So they would do this thing, like I said. They'd have like a block party.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

And then they'd try to get people in to watch a film or you know watch it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

It was never just have a burger. It was always uh There was a cat. If you want a burger, you gotta watch our film.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Burgers are in there out here's the celery. There's burgers in there where the films play. Where the the meter pinch test players.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

If you want a ketchup, you gotta watch another thing. Oh, dear.

Giveaway, Audience Questions, Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

Awesome guys. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:36

Well, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

Thank you to everyone joining us. We appreciate it. Um, we will be back next Sunday. Um, like we said, we'll post the link to the the conversation we had with Julian Dory in the video description. If you haven't had a chance to see that, we recommend you get on over there and give it a listen. It was a fun conversation, and yeah, there you go. We made it to the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:58

Awesome. Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Xenu, Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology, in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you could click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.