Scientology's Ultimate Exit Tax w/ Amy Scobee & Mat Pesch - Secrets of Scientology #16

They call it a “billion-year contract,” but the real shock can hit after you leave: a freeloader bill that invoices you for the training, auditing, and even the interrogations you were required to do as a Sea Org member. We sit down with guests Amy Scobee and Mat Pesch to compare notes, swap receipts, and map the pressure points Scientology uses when someone walks away.

We talk through our own totals and Matt’s eye-watering mailed “partial” bill, which already comes to around $200,000 after 27 years. We unpack what appears on these invoices, why promissory notes matter, and how the system intersects with disconnection, family contact, and the so-called A-to-E steps for “good standing.” Along the way, we get honest about what leaving actually looks like in real life, including walking out with almost nothing and trying to learn basic adult skills. At the same time, the organization dangles reconnection behind a paywall.

Then we zoom out to the money engine: how discount “buy now” offers reveal the numbers are arbitrary, why “active Scientologist” counts matter to management, and what former insiders saw around wasteful spending, constant rebuilds, and leadership decisions that burn through cash. We close with viewer questions, Clearwater logistics, and a quick giveaway.

If this helped you understand Scientology freeloader debt, the Sea Org, and the control mechanics behind the billing, subscribe, share this with someone who needs context, and leave a review so more people can find these stories.

Transcript

Welcome And The Core Question

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hey guys, welcome back to the channel. Welcome to another episode of Blown for Good, Scientology Exposed. I am joined by multiple guests today. And uh I'm just gonna bring them all up right here. Let's see what we got. We got Claire, and we also have Matt Pegge and Amy Scoby. Thank you for joining us, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Hey everybody. Yay. So good to have you both here on this fine hot summer Sunday. Yes, in our tropical shirts. Yeah, we're helping.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

We're helping to promote the uh Walmart Shirt of the Month uh Club.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

We um we normally when we do a live on Sunday, we normally do it around 12 or 1 p.m. 12 noon or 1 p.m. Mountain Standard Time so that the European folks could come in. But in order to have Matt Matt Namey on, we had to do it a little later. And um so we're glad to have you guys on. And um today uh we're gonna be talking about when you leave Scientology or you're if you're in the C organization specifically, and those are the folks that signed the billion-year contracts. Um if you leave before your billion-year contract is up, which is pretty much everybody. So far to a one, no one has uh fulfilled their billion-year contract.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Nope, there's zero contracts completed.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, they have a bad uh percentage of people that are fulfilling their contracts.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

They do.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Um but if you leave before your billion years is up, um, Scientology has a mechanism where they give you a bill for all of the on-the-job training that you got and also for all of the Scientology courses or counseling that you received while you were in the C org. So for regular paying C org members, uh re regular paying Scientology members, people that don't sign the billion-year contracts, when they do a Scientology course, let's say like the purification rundown, it's $5,000 for the purification rundown or whatever it is. I think it might even be more now. I don't know how much it is, but let's just say it's $5,000, then the public or the civilian Scientologist pay them $5,000 and then they do the course. If you're a C org member, you basically just sign a thing saying that I'm a C org member.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

You sign a promissory note.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah. You sign a promissory note that says, hey, I'm a C org member, so I'm good to go, and that's the end of that. Now when we when Claire and I left, they gave us I think my bill was like fifty-six thousand dollars or something like that. What was it?

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Claire's got the bookkeeper in the house here. Your bill was sixty-two thousand nine hundred and twenty-six dollars.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Okay, now and that's for fifteen years in the C organization. Yes. And almost all of the things on there are just required courses, C org courses, welcome to the C org, um, basic courses that you have to

What A Freeloader Bill Is

SPEAKER_00 3:40

do if you're in the C org. So legally, um the if the law were able to look at this and see how legal it was or the the how correct it is or whatever, um, you're not allowed to charge. A company is not allowed to charge an employee or somebody who works for them for on-the-job training. You you're supposed to provide that. So not only are they charging for on-the-job training, but they're also paying, they're also charging me for interrogations and what we're what's called security security checks, which where they interrogate you on the e-meter. Um, if you guys haven't seen our e-meter videos, you should go back and check those out. We've got we we pulled apart some of their old e-meters and their new e-meters, and those are pretty cool. But um but not only are they charging me for the things that are on the job training, but they also charged me for interrogations, which were ordered and uh basically set up by them. I wasn't, I didn't choose to do that. I was required to get interrogated. So we wanted to find out so that's what happened to us. Yeah. And Claire's was how much was Claire's? How much was yours?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Mine was $96,580. So for the two of us, the total, which by the way, would we would have to pay this if we were to ever speak to our family again.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Oh, yeah, that's one of the first steps. Like, say we left, we escaped from Scientology, and then we were like, Oh my gosh, we were so wrong about them. We want to go back. Then the first thing you gotta do is you gotta pay them that money. Yeah. That that nothing's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Well, no, first you have to admit that you you were you're a suppressive person and confess do a public confession.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

And then pretty much immediately it's like, okay, good, pay back all that money. Yeah, but and then not only that, not only do you have to pay for everything you did, you would then the next step after paying that is redo it all over again, for which you got it, you gotta pay again.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, and there's no guarantee. I want to mention this to people, there's no guarantee that they're gonna let you back in. You have to do it's they're called the A to E steps, and they there's step A, B, C, D, all the way up to E. You've got to do all those things. And after you complete all of those things, then they get to decide whether or not you're gonna be able to come back in or not. So we wanted to find out um that was our thing, and I don't really think I've talked to that many other people about the freeloader deaths on exactly what they got.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Right. And that's what that's what made me want to have this conversation with Amy and Matt, because I saw Matt, you had commented about having your freeloader bills or at least seeing them. And I was like, oh my gosh, we got to talk about this because I I didn't actually realize that you'd seen them. But yeah, so summing up ours, so our grand total was $159,000, five uh $159,506. There you go. Okay, so now you tell us about yours.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

They mailed me mine. It was they said it was a partial, and it was around what $200,000. Just for you, Matt. Just for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

And now how long were you in?

SPEAKER_04 6:57

And it was pages and pages and pages, and it totaled over $200,000.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And how long were you in the Sea Org, Matt? 27 years. Okay, so for 27 years, they wanted at least 200K, and that was not even the full thing. That was what they're saying is so far.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Oh, so they're like, you can go ahead and get started paying $200,000, and we'll get back to you on what the balance is. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

We left with like $45.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Right. Same with us. We had, I think by the time I got to Kansas City, which is where my dad lived, I was done. I had like a few hundred bucks, and just to, you know, eat and get some uh rent do this or get a ride or do that, it was done. It was the my money. I was out.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

I had like $12 by the time I made it to Kansas City.

unknown 7:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

$12 left.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

That's it. Total net worth 12 plus 52.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

You know, like we're our net worth is in our 40s and and we're trying to start in the world that I never lived in, really. I didn't I never cooked, I never drove, I didn't have a bank account, I didn't know anything about the outside world. I never went grocery shopping. I mean, it's like this is all brand new, and I'm out here with I actually blew my money on getting my hair done. Nice. Because I came straight out of the rehabilitation project for it looking like a which is basically a prison camp.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, so you hadn't had your hair did in a long time.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Right. So and I wasn't gonna come back to my you know family at all in the world. Yeah, looking like you haven't seen me in 27 years, and yeah, it's been going great.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I've been I'm doing a I'm doing a uh a a beauty and wellness pan uh play that was uh that was uh written by the cryptkeeper.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah, I will never forget uh one of the first times we went out with Mark's family to a restaurant, um and we and we it was totally uncon uh like unconscious, but yes, we were sitting at this place.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

It was like a Marie calendars or like uh something like that.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

We had plates of pasta. That much I do remember. He ordered we had both ordered a pasta dish, and they put it down in front of us, and like it was it was not it's not like we were starving in that moment. It was like muscle memory kicked in, and we just vacuumed.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, and the the best part is that when we were done eating, our family members were just like sitting there, like they hadn't even had a bite more than a bite or two, and we were done. And they were like, Yeah, oh wow, guys.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

Like it was what happened with us too. Like we went to a uh a buffet with my family, you know, all everyone, and everyone's kind of filing in. Matt and I are like up at the buffet. We picked everything, we sat down, we ate it, and people were still hanging there.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Our family members just came back to the table to get started and ordered drinks and stuff, and we had literally finished our plates already.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

Yeah, that's what we're so grooved into 15-minute meal breaks. But you know what he did when he got that thing? I wish we kept it, but what he did was this rip. Yeah, you know, and then we wrote to him saying, never contact us again on a piece of yellow pad paper, you know, just scribbled it out, mailed it back to them.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah, we we your your announcement was we hereby disconnect from you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

I want to say that we had we had actually asked them. We said, hey, because they were saying you got to do this and you gotta do that, and Claire was actually trying to make it so we could speak with our families when we first left. We weren't trying to cause any trouble. We were just like, hey, we're we're gonna just do our thing. If you do if you if you're if you don't want to make any c crazy trouble out of this, we're not trying to do anything. We just we just didn't want to be there anymore. Now we're we're out. We don't want to have anything to do with you. But we want to wish our mom or our dad happy birthday or whatever, you know. But um so we actually got a letter from Mike Ellis, who is the international justice chief in in Los Angeles, which is kind of silly because he has

The Bills Claire And Marc Got

SPEAKER_00 11:20

no power or authority really. Somebody else is writing or saying, telling him what he's supposed to t tell people and all that. He's just a puppet.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah. But he but he is. So according to policy, though, that is the only person that you're technically, per the words of L. Ron Hubbard, allowed to talk to. And I always bring up, except if you have a lawsuit against them accusing them of heinous crimes, then you get to talk to a fake arbitration panel. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

But either way, he sent us a uh a letter and he said, Hey, um, Kirsten, who was the external security chief um office of special affairs, which is Scientology's dirty tricks to department, they were formerly called the Guardian's Office and were convicted of the largest infiltration in the United States government in its history. And um so Kirsten, who was the head of that, um, had spoken to him and then he wrote us. Yep. So and then we when we got him, I was liter I and that's the craziest thing to me is I really didn't do anything. I did the basic C org courses and a whole bunch of security checking. And there's even a course, I think on mine it has the ministers course listed. That's right. Which everyone in the C org um totally I think it was in after 9-11 that all C org members had to do the minister course because David Miscavige was worried that um they were gonna re- uh institute the draft.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Yeah, no, that I think that was even earlier than that. That was for the Iraq war.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Could have been, whichever war there was a few different stints where everybody's gotta do the minister course. Um and every time that that happened, I was in one of these areas of the organization in Golden Air Productions where you weren't gonna be going to study for the next uh four or five years. So um so I was enrolled on it, I think, once or twice, where they said everybody's got to go sign up for the course, but I never actually did the course. Um and they billed me for that. That was on there. Yes. And there were other things that I was just like, what? But either way, um Claire and I never ever paid a penny of ours. We never did any of these uh steps A through E to get back in good standing with them because they're ridiculous. And um, it's funny because Scientology has two ways of basically um parting ways with you. If you're in the C org and you want to leave, you have to route out. And if you look at the steps A through E and the route out steps, they're very parallel. They're you're gonna get security checking where they're gonna basically get you to either admit or confess to a whole bunch of crimes that you committed, and then you're gonna have to denounce everything that you did before. You have to do all these steps. But basically, if you do decide to leave, they have so much dirt and so many paper so much paperwork that you've signed that you will never ever be able to have any recourse once you leave Scientology. Well, if you if you escape from Scientology and then you want to talk to your family, you essentially have to do those same steps again so they can get all the dirt they need on you. They can get you to basically be in a subservient um position to them, and then they if you make any trouble, then they've got all this documentation and they've got a bunch of papers you signed that say you're a criminal and you're you're not gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

It's all recorded, videoed, yes, you know, and it's not true, too. I mean, it's Trump doesn't you were never an executive.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, that's the that's even the best thing. You're like, um, I was on the executive council of your organization. I was signing some of IRS documentations as a Yeah, exactly. I was signing 3,000 checks a week worth millions and millions of dollars. Yeah, yet I was just a lowly Sea Org member. You're like, uh, okay. But either way, um so but you guys didn't, you guys, yours would have had to have been like well, did did Amy, did you ever even see yours?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

I did not get mine. Um, it would have been pretty hefty, too.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

It probably would have been more than Matt's, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:40

No, he did this the what's called the St. Hill Special Briefing Course. Oh my gosh. I did all the administration training, he did the PDC course, which is the Philadelphia doctor course.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Well, yeah, that's 70, that's 76 lectures. The briefing course is like 350 lectures. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

And we both did up through OT seven, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um, so you both knew about the space cooties the whole time. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Well after that point, after OT3, you knew about space cooties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

But I just want to say about the the freeloader bill, like it started because some trainees were coming to the ship, learning how to audit, and then you know, provide counseling and then going into the field and making money off of that rather than going back to staff. So they were then made to just pay for the training that they just had because they're making a profit off of it. You know, so then it warped into this monster of stupidity of like you can dedicate 27 years of your life to them and then be, you know, handed like kicked out with one dollar and then handed a quarter million dollar bill saying, have fun paying us back before you can get back in good standing or talk to any of your family members.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Yeah. It morphed into complete evil control and leverage, intended to not have you have any contact with your family, which is who you most need contact with if you have a break free from that mess.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. I it's really it's just in the end, it's it's just a cash grab.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Because I remember in Golden Era Productions, every year, like around October, November, December, it there would be talk of Christmas bonuses. And it was always like, hey, the org's gotta make a certain amount of money in order for Christmas bonuses to happen, and it's all it was always a thing. And Golden Air Productions, the way uh over the years, it was pretty much funded by how much money was coming in from Scientology organizations. So a percentage of the money that organizations or all over Scientology organizations all over the world, they had a percentage of money that they had to pay, and it was called money paid for training. So if somebody signed up for a course or somebody signed up for um some kind of thing

Mat’s $200K Bill And Leaving Broke

SPEAKER_00 18:10

where you sit in the classroom and you're doing Scientology training on courses, a percentage of that money went straight to Golden Era so that we could produce the technical films and the lectures and all these things. And so if the orgs were doing really bad, Golden Era Productions was not getting as much money. And so we did sometimes there was there was weeks and months, and I I want to say my social security statement shows three years where the Scientology recorded that they paid me zero dollars for three years straight.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

So I had one year up too.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah. So when you when you have you're not really making a lot of money there, and then you're doing this stuff, but you you're not gonna get a Christmas bonus. And when I say Christmas bonus, guys, I'm talking like if we're gonna go crazy and we're like, oh my god, my mind is blown, that's a $200 Christmas bonus. Right. Okay, like woohoo, party time, $200. So usually it was $100, sometimes it was $50, and sometimes it was zero. But the thing that I remember every single year was the director of income. It was this gal named Sherry. And Sherry would get up in front of the crew and she would say, Listen, guys, um, we need all the help we can get. If you know any former Sea Org members or you know anybody that has freeloader bills, we're doing a buy now where we're gonna basically, if they've got a $150,000 Sea Org bill, if they pay us $50,000 right now, that it that wipes out their whole bill for $50K. And if we can get, and she literally had all it all worked out, if we can get 20 people to pay off their freeloader bills, because that money, Golden Era Productions is the one who delivered these courses and things to them. So when that money comes in, it's just pure profit. There, it's not per pa per L. Ron Hubbard financial policy, it it's not really allocated towards anything. It's basically just free money that nobody was ever gonna get. So it could it could be agreed upon between the advisory council and the executive council and the flag banking officer and the executive director. All these folks could basically say whatever free load or bill money comes in, we're gonna assign that to the crew bonuses. And in Golden Air Productions, I think most of the time I was there, it was over 300 Sea Org members in Golden Air Productions. I think it even got up to like three into the 350s at one point. Yep. It was a lot. It was the it was the largest, one of the largest um Sea Org organizations um in the world besides the Flag Land Base, Golden Air Productions. And the PAC RPF, which was the the biggest ever. But um all the Sea Org members that had got uh got assigned to the to the what's called the Rehabilitation Project Force in Los Angeles, there were so many that were being sent there at one time that they were like a 500-plus Sea Org organization.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

And um and they weren't David Miscavige mentioned several times that it was bigger than the the rehabilitation project force was bigger than a St. Hill size org.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yes. How many people they'd assign to that? Anyway, so so even when I was in the Sea Org, I was kind of like, that's weird. So the freeloader bill is $189,000 or whatever, and if they get $50K, it's done. And so you're like, this is it's it's all about the money.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

There's no it's totally arbitrary. Totally arbitrary.

unknown 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

You had that for Treasury at episode, like every year.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Oh, yeah, you were in Treasury at Flag.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

I was collecting them.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Well, one year they had a special for five thousand dollars. If you paid your five thousand bucks, your entire free load. That was would be canceled, that was like in the early 2000s. And the reason being is because management had asked us to figure out how many active Scientologists read flag. And the flag has you know makes more money than all the Scientology put together, it has more delivery than based on that uh value than all the Scientology combined. And it's like the it's the the key to the whole place. So it's like, okay, so how many active Scientologists are there? And based on they had to pay or debit at least, I think it was 11, no, 1500 bucks over three years to be considered an active Scientologist. So we printed out the list and it was less than 5,000 people.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

That were going to the biggest Scientology church in the world called when he's when we say flag guys, if you're new to the channel, there's we've got we've been getting a lot of new subscribers over the past few weeks. Um so I just want to make sure we're not jumping ahead, but I mean there's we've done 200 videos on this channel. We talk about this. But in uh the sea organization started in the middle of the sea on L. Ron Hubbard's boats, and when they transitioned from the sea to land, they actually did that in f it. They did it in Daytona, and then they finally settled on Clearwater in the 1970s. If you want to go on down a reap uh rabbit hole, you can look up uh Scientology Project Normandy, and that's where they planned to take over the town of Clearwater. This is in the 1970s, guys. Um, they have pretty much taken over Clearwater as of 2026. But when they moved to land, they called it the it was when the boats were at sea, they were called flag, the flagship Apollo and the flagship Athena, whatever. When they moved to land, they literally called it the flag land base. And so a lot of people just refer to it as flag or the FLB, the flagland base, or you can just say Clearwater. It's all downtown Clearwater is almost 90 percent of the Scientology organization buildings are filled with sea organization members that are part of the Flagland Base. So that's where Matt worked at Matt worked where Claire and I worked at the international headquarters, but he also worked in Clearwater. So you are saying that that and that and that is the largest and the Scientology organization that makes the most money of any Scientology organization is that one in Clearwater. If the one in Clearwater in a week makes two million dollars, all of the rest of Scientology's organization don't make two million dollars combined. Right. All of them combined make less money than the the location in Clearwater. So you're saying when you compiled this list of the people that were doing the minimum amount to be considered active Scientologists was 5,000 people.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

It was it was under 5,000 people. And we thought, wow, that can't be. That's impossible. And it was checked and double-checked, yeah, it was less than 5,000. So the problem wasn't the problem there was you had a lot of things happening, like you had the income range had dropped almost in half over a few years. You had recruitment was almost non-existent, and Scientology was going nowhere. So the idea was to let these people come back in, pay five thousand bucks and come back in just to get some Scientologists back in the house.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Oh, so it wasn't really we want the five thousand, we want the fifteen hundred every so often for the rest of time.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

To inflate the list of active Scientologists. And when when was this that that this list was?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

It was about two thousand and one or two thousand and two.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Damn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Wow. So that's really true.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

We would have given them five thousand bucks to come back in. It was bad. It was a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

This is the crazy. Now that you say this, this is kind of wild. Because um Tony Ortega over at the Underground Bunker, he does a lot of he does stories on Scientology pretty much every single day. And when he did a story about all these people that were um like involved in in the cult or getting their uh certificates of how much money they gave or their prizes or whatever, I noticed that there's actually a large amount of former Sea Org members that are in those groups of people doing that. And I didn't even I didn't even really connect the dots, but I want to say that there's at least 10 or 15 people from the international headquarters that were kicked out or escaped are on those current lists of people that are donating millions of dollars, or they're part of a family like the one I thought of specifically was this guy named Danny Baram. Yes, and Danny Baram was Who Amy.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

You remember Danny Baram and worked very closely with him for many years.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yes, he was the deputy garbage. That's right. We got kicked, it was at CMO in the city.

SPEAKER_04 27:14

Because he didn't clap at an award ceremony.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

He got yeah, oh that's right. He didn't clap.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

I do not remember that. Yes. Yes, and he he was like a a because he didn't get an award. He oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, miscavige would have his staff face the audience to see who wasn't clapping or like appreciative of how great Miscavige was. Yeah. These people would be taken into interrogations

How Freeloader Debt Became A Weapon

SPEAKER_01 27:40

later on. Because he didn't clap. Your life could change.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, because you didn't clap or look right when Miscavige was like, and Danny Baram was Danny Baram was in the C uh C the Commodore's Messenger Org International. Is that where he was working? Or okay. So he was in one of the highest man C org management organizations in the world.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

He was a WDC member for a while. It wasn't he with me? Yeah. Oh that's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

No, he was when he was fresh to the base, right? He was just and so it was a criminal poster.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

Which I probably did. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

But regardless, he got guess he didn't clap at something. He was made not the garbage guy in in in Golden Era Productions. He was made, and this is a very um specific thing that Miscavige does on a mo on a he's done it uh I would say at least 30 times. He doesn't make you the lowest guy, he makes you the deputy of the lowest guy.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Yeah. Sometimes even the deputy deputy.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah, I think it was Jeff Walker. I think it was Jeff Walker who when he got um he when he was the senior case supervisor international in charge of all of Scientologists' training and counseling at wor worldwide. Um when he got busted from that, he was made the deputy deputy deeper. Not the D weeder, but the deputy of the deputy of the D-weeder.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

There wasn't even a deputy deeper. I know there wasn't even a weeder.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

It was ridiculous that he's the deputy deputy of two people that don't even exist.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

It was about the humiliation uh and intentional degradation of the person, like just rubbing it in their face. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

But so Danny Baram.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Um he was uh he was in SEMO International or W WDC Wor uh Watchdog Committee. That's the people who manage all of the sectors of Scientology. He was in Golden Air Productions for a long time, and then I think he ended up going to audio or he went he moved out of the garb out of the estates division and he went to some other division or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 29:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

But I the thing that I always remember about Danny is he got into some sort of accident.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

He did?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah. He got in a car accident um in town. He had a car.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

He he was already had money when he got into the state.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

And I we're gonna talk about that too.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah. But he got into an accident, and I want to say that he got a couple hundred thousand dollars awarded to him in this accident that he had. Wow. And um, and so he had a he had he had like golf cart money. I think he even had uh he got a golf cart or something that he was driving around the base, and everybody's like, what the hell this guy getting a golf course? And then it got around, like, oh this his dad's got money. His dad, wasn't his dad Victor? Victor Baram.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Oh, Victor Baram, yeah. Yeah, so that's what I want to say is the Baram family is one of the biggest UK Scientology families. So it was Victor and Erica were uh, and then um Mickey and um Hanny owned like a jewelry shop in East Grinstead. They are huge big OT ambassadors, like very, very active. Alon Baram worked directly for David Miscavige as his secretary. Anyway, um so Danny is definitely second generation Scientologist, possibly even third. Um and yeah, like there's Elon Baram, there's Alon, there's uh Danny, Mickey, Hanny. Anyway, there's a whole slew of them. But in the UK, they're one of the biggest, wealthiest Scientology families.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah. The the main thing I remember about Danny, besides the golf cart thing and the deputy whatever garbage guy thing is that he was married to a smoke show, and her name was Lawrence.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

Yeah, that's how she would say it. La Hans.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

La Hans, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Anyway, but um he ended up leaving the Ant Base.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

I think he got was it offloaded, or did he got offloaded for being like n unproductive dead wood. Like he's there's no the Sea Org can find no use for him. And and somehow Yeah, and Laurence divorced him. Yeah, and she yeah. But Danny's story, he get he goes out, he must have done the freeloader debt, done the ADE. There's all these steps of things that they require everybody to do. He must have done all those, and now he's one of these people that Matt's talking about, where now he's a paying member of the ecosystem and not a drag because he's in the Sea Org and Scientology's having to support him.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

So he's given tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to the International Association of Scientologists.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

I think it's millions.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Because he was it was like a family thing, the Barom family. And I looked and I'm like, oh my God, I think that's Danny. And I'm like, This poor Sepp's giving those guys all that dough. Yep. Anyway, um, also Danny, um, pretty like indifferent in terms of Scientology. He was just like, yeah, you know, whatever. So most likely, so he could talk to the rest of that huge family. Right and the support.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

And so that the rest of said family will, you know, they don't want to rock the boats. Yes. And uh, you know, so they they're gonna get him to tow the line and you know that's true.

SPEAKER_04 33:19

If you got money in Scientology, if you got money, you're golden. It doesn't matter. You know, you got money, you're golden. Just give it over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Yeah. You know what's funny is that I think Laurence, so that's Danny's, one of Danny's uh wives. I don't know. I know he's married again, obviously, because he's got a whole new family.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

But um I think Laurence got together with John Stumpke.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

She did. And then Catherine just said in the case.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

She went, she when she was married another time, or maybe even she got divorced, um, she ended up um having relations with somebody else who worked in the landlord office.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Who was married to somebody else?

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah, and so then she left the Sea Org as well. Um But regardless, uh I think what Matt's saying. I think what Matt's saying, this was in the 2000s, you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Danny left in the probably the early 2000s as well. And he might very well have been one of these people that was like, and that's the crazy thing. If you have a $200,000 Sea Ort uh freeloader bill, and they say for $5K, we're gonna wipe it out. I mean to to somebody who's trying to get back to speaking to their family, that's that's like the deal of the century. Um and and but then you have to play their you have to play all their games once you get back in it.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

You can't I'm so glad they sent us a quarter million dollar stupid reload bill. I know that sealed it right there. That sealed it. It's done, you know, it's done. So same with us.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

When when I go back by the time we got it, I want to say we left in January. We kind of started to talk to them back and forth a little bit in February.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I went and the person we were talking to was busted, so we didn't hear from them for a couple of months.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Then and and then it was finally in April when so I organized and you know managed getting all of our belongings back because I knew from working in Religious Technology Center that legally they knew and I knew that they were required to give us our belongings. So Mark went back to LA and we rented a a Penske truck. You know, it took four months mainly because they wanted to inventory everything, like with a 60-page inventory by Bankers Box.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

We did a video on that as well. If you guys want to watch it, it's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

So crazy.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Three pages of the patrimote CDs.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

But but all of that but all of that to say that when Mark picked up that truck with all of our belongings loaded into it, it was I think mid-April, mid to end of April by then. They handed him our declares.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yes. And our SP declares. So we left in January. This is now April, and they gave me and we've been talking to him this whole time.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Oh, and by the way, they they had already told us, they had also said, oh, guess what? You asked um because they had told us that our declare was on hold.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yes, the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Yeah. They failed to mention that, oh, but by the way, we already told all your family, and that's why they're not talking to you. They didn't mention that part. But either way, they had said it was on hold. And I will never forget the day I was where I was. I was sitting in our apartment in Kansas City, and my cell phone rings, and it's Warren McShane, who is the head legal guy in Religious Technology Center, works directly for David Miscavige. He says, Hey, so guess what? We told you it's on hold. I'm like, okay. So you need to come back and do the rehabilitation project for us.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

And I'm like, Or you're gonna get declared.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Are literally out of your mind.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah. We both have jobs. We have a lease.

SPEAKER_03 37:11

We have a lease. We have oh my gosh, it was nuts. Mark, Mark would die before he moved to the Oh yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Hell yeah. I mean, to be fair, when I escaped, I did end up speaking with Claire. This is all in my book, Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology. But I did speak to Claire on the phone after I escaped. She was able to get a hold of me uh through a weird channel. Illegally. Yeah, we won't get a we won't go over that.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

But that'll be covered in my book coming back.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Not illegal in the real world, illegal in Scientology.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

I was I broke the rules to figure out how to contact Mark.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

But regardless, um, when she was talking to me, she's like, Oh, but what if you just come back? I'd only been gone a few days. And I'm like, no way, man, I'm sleeping and eating and watching movies and making tons of money. I'm like, uh it is such a cakewalk out here compared to that place. Like you're living, you're living on very hard level with 20 um evil bosses above you in the video game, and they're all attacking you full time. When you go into the real world, it's like you you're unleashed if you were in that place. So I was I was coasting through life, and I'm and I was just telling her, like, babe, you should get the hell out of here, man. This was this was a I'm living like a rock star after one week. Come on, get out here.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

But initially I was trying to, you know, I mean, they were also uh listening to some of the calls that we had. But either way, I was trying to get him to come back so we could

Discount Payoffs And Active Member Counts

SPEAKER_03 38:50

figure out what to do, because I didn't think that I had the capacity physically to be able to escape without help, which did turn out to be accurate. Either way.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

But but but to get back to the freeloader bills, yeah. They're they're not designed to get the person back into Scientology. They are designed for that to Scientology to get a ton of money from another source. I mean, if you look at Scientology, I I think you would agree with this too, Matt Namies, that they they maximize every possible way that they can get money out of the people that are involved in Scientology. If you're not doing training. Yeah. Exactly. They call it income sources.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Yes, exactly. Though though I would say as in addition to yes, I agree that's the primary reason. But second to that, the other next important thing that freeloader bills do is they leverage and control the person to not spread not to not spread any, you know. So they won't share with their family what their experiences were. They won't say anything critical about Scientology that they they'd have to shut it down. Yeah, I bet I bet So that's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, I bet Danny Baram's not uh uh talking around the Thanksgiving table about the time that David David Miscavige made him the deputy deputy dumpster, I see.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Yeah, or the time he witnessed David Miscavige punching staff and you know, all those other things, or the the group confessions and all that that he was present for. He's not talking about none of that. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

And that's the point.

SPEAKER_04 40:33

Could you imagine how surpr how like I know that's what I wanted to do a blanket the entire time? You're constantly under their thumb. It's like you can't even live your life, you can't speak truth about anything.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

I can't imagine maybe it's just me and how I've come to be however I am, but I can't imagine somebody witnessing all the things that we witnessed and then just pretending none of that ever happens, and then go back to the city.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

Or that it's justified.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Or yeah, that there's any good reason that that should be the way it is. And then and but then go back to my family, who has millions and millions of dollars, and encourage them to give these people money and then give money myself when I know it's like seeing the wizard of Oz and then being like, okay, checks out. I think he's a good guy, whatever. And then you're just like, uh it is what it is, you know. Everybody's uh you know, different weight, what does it say? Uh different strokes for different folks, man. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

It's severe blindness, and and you know, like it takes a bit to, I mean, to shake off like the effects the cult has on you, but it really shouldn't take that long, you know. I mean, wait, open your eyes. What did you just experience? It's not rational, it's not sane, you know. Nobody in the whole world knows this except for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah, and also that when you're at the end base, and even when you're at in Florida, if you're anyone, if you're anywhere near the spending of the money, you know that money's being flushed down the toilet at mad rates on a full-time basis. Like literally, just it you David Miscavige is ordering things to be done or some renovation change that's not necessary to do it. Because he wants it done. And you so you not only are you spending you're spending an insane amount of money to get something done in an unrealistic time, but then almost to a T, that m that will be insufficient because it was rushed, that then he'll make you make somebody redo it again. So, like in his building was being built, the Religious Technology Center, there was like $30 million of cost overruns to do that building. That wasn't the amount it cost to do the building. That was how much they paid for things more than once, or to be redone, or to be completely ripped out. I remember when that building was being built out. Somehow, this is and and it is kind of crazy if you think about it. But David Miscavige had his own private office in the building, and attached to that building were a bedroom and a full like luxury shower and bathroom and everything. And the main high voltage electrical panel for the building was on the back side of his shower. So, like his shower was on this side, and there's like, you know, 12,000 KV on the other side. Nobody's got any plans for you, Dave. We're just saying that's just how the that's just how the cookie crumbled on this one.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Because nothing could possibly ever go sideways there.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

But as soon as he found that out, he had the entire electrical thing redone. And um, but it was It was just, you know, things like that. Like I think even they go ahead, Amy. Yeah, you said that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

I was gonna say here's a good example where um we're renovating Building 36, which is the manufacturing building for Golden Era Productions. I was on the rehabilitation project force for one of my 4,000 times. And um so they so we were putting up these gigantic boards in the hallway, organization charts, the watch quarter station bill assignments, like all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

And they're gigantic they're like 20 feet long and about four feet high.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

Yep. So we hung all of these in this, you know, hallway and stuff like that, and they were hung perfectly. David Miscavige comes down and he said, I didn't approve the walls yet. So take down all of these things, patch up the holes, which are gonna be like this big, and if I can detect where one hole was made, then you're going to the RPS, RPS, RPF, or whatever. Or then I'm gonna take a sledgehammer to the whole building or whatever you said. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I was given that task. So all those boards come down. I'm so I'm you know, fixing the patching these damn holes and um and then painting over it and all this kind of stuff, and I'm like looking that up one side and down the other. It took me a little bit and he comes back in, they couldn't, you know, he he said that it was a pass, and then we just re-hung them. But like all that time, all that money, all that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Yeah, once he approved the walls, yeah. But once he approved the walls, you put those, you put those things right back where they were because they only fit between certain doors in certain places. It wasn't like there was a million places for these things to go, they could only go on the walls that they were designed to go on.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

So nothing changed. Yeah. So nothing changed. Nothing changed except he hadn't. Oh my gosh, yeah, it's it's mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

We're just gonna if you're watching this, you know that was insane. Yeah, totally insane.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

The thing that kind of seals it for me, and I do go over this in my book, is that when I was in the tapes department uh in Golden Air Productions, that's where I first started in 1990 when I got to the international headquarters, is I was making cassette tapes of L. Ron Hubbard's lectures. And somehow, some way, David Miscavige basically did the math on the machines that made the cassettes. If they were run 24 hours, how many cassettes could they possibly do if they were perfect and nothing got flunked and everything ran and every hour another start was done for the recording process? That basically 50,000, you could do it. If if the stars aligned and everything was perfect and nothing was messed up, you could do 50,000. So that was our uh edict. We had to produce 50,000 cassettes in one week, every single week. But and they were special cassettes that were made on TDK metal tape, and it cost about a dollar per lecture, just the tape, not including the Nurelco and the case and all the other stuff, the packaging. But he didn't give the same edict to the sales department to sell 50,000 tapes a week. So we're cranking out thirty-five thousand, forty-five thousand, fifty thousand, fifty-one thousand, twenty-eight thousand for years. And they're selling five sets a week or ten sets a week, or thirty sets a week if there's an event. And in the end. Well, be even before we got to tapes, they had to destroy three hundred thousand tapes because they were they were uh what David Miscavige considered an overt product. L. Ron Hubbard's voice wasn't as clear as it was supposed to be on the lectures. So they destroyed three hundred thousand cassettes. Well, when we started producing into the 30s, 40s, and 50,000 cassettes a week, we racked up millions and millions of cassettes that were being stored at Golden Era Productions and in locations in Los Angeles and in all organizations. Because even though the Scientology wasn't selling the lectures, Scientology Golden Era Productions enforced that every single organization had to buy a minimum purchase amount of the lectures. So it would take it was 1,500 worldwide, is how many sets we would produce. And then that was divided into all the organizations. And so this organization had to buy 10, and this one had to buy 15, and Flag had to buy 100, and you know, all these things. But they weren't selling them either. So when the CDs, when they switched over to CDs, there was literally tens of millions of dollars of lectures. They were all destroyed all around the world. Wow. Yeah. So literally, we're talking if one cassette cost a dollar, there was over ten. I would think even more than that, because all the packaging and the transcripts

Donors, Disconnection, And Staying Silent

SPEAKER_00 49:20

and the labels and the buttons.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

Let alone your time.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

And so Scientology didn't get that money from nowhere. That was from the Baram family and the this family. So those guys, that's what they're paying for. If Scientology makes a hundred million dollars a year. I would say that at least thirty to fifty million of that is being wasted on just dumb stuff. Yep. Including building all these buildings they're spending millions of dollars on that none of nobody's going into these. They had an organization that was next to the dog walk groomer in the strip mall, and it made more money than this $20 million property that they're in now, and with with the staff they have, because they're it's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

So that's the part and we're not even talking about wasted money on events.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

I'm dead that that's what I'm saying. I mean, there's there's so much waste.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

How about the Lisa McPherson fiasco? Yeah, she got she died at Flag after Miscavige was her CS and running all that bullcrap. Yes, yeah, supervisor. We spent a hundred million dollars on that bull crap. A hundred million dollars. And I know because I was a treasury secretary. So it was all flushed.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

A hundred million dollars because one person and oh and and that's the Matt, you just blew my mind.

SPEAKER_05 50:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

They spent a hundred million dollars. Now, if you were to if you were to do an investigation within Scientology and there was no restrictions on who you could light up, if you gave that investigation to ten separate sets of C org members, they would all come to the conclusion that this was David Miscavige's fuck up. He is the person who made this happen. Out of everybody involved, he was the one who did this and he did this, and that's what happened to her, and then she died. They would all come up with the exact same result. And so he it's not like Scientology wasted a hundred million dollars.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

No, and he personal guy. That was the flag left that was just the flag service or international base, international reserves was coughing up millions of dollars too.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

So wow It wasn't just the hundred million that that flag paid in. And I don't doubt it. When Scientology is about to get burned, um they there's no like at Golden Era Productions, I would have to submit what's called a purchase order every single week. Um, and it would get disapproved every single week um so that I could get contact lenses. And so I had been wearing a pair for about three years that were like a 30-day pair. Um and so I was trying to get some new ones because you know when they tear, it's hard to see through them. But um anyway, but meanwhile, you go over to Office of Special Affairs and they're literally cutting checks for millions and millions of dollars to these attorneys. And and and you know what's even funnier? No one's doing a purchase order on that. They just tell the checks the checks 10 million five hundred and fifty-two thousand. And then somebody goes, yes, sir, and writes a check.

SPEAKER_05 52:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Nobody's writing up a uh situation, uh David Miscavige.

SPEAKER_04 52:41

Glue it again. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Yeah, so so that so that's another thing where you go, Danny Baram I know he probably didn't see a lot of these things going on when he was the deputy deputy dumpster guy, but when he was in watchdog committee and CMO Int, he saw these things going around, do what was being done, and he saw the amount of wastage that there was and the amount of millions of dollars that just gets spent on nonsense. And for him to then go back, make a deal so he could talk to all his family, and then become one of these people who get who's giving them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars that knowing that's where that's what's happening to it. David Miscavige is just spending it how he wants on what he wants. There's no group of people in Scientology that are like, okay, the strategic uh plan that we have going forward. There's nobody doing that. The only person who has a say or a vision is David Miscavige. And he just tells everybody, this is what you need to do. Period. Absolutely. And if it's a dumb idea and it costs $15 million, it's gonna get done because he said that's what and they the money's just sitting there.

SPEAKER_04 53:56

So there's also like the the International Association of Scientologists, and they have requirements of how much have to has to be spent each year to show whatever they have to show. And so it'd be like, come on, quick, let's figure something out. You know, okay, well, we can build a building over here, or we can throw some money over here, and then millions of dollars.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

I mean, that percentage is just the interest, by the way, if you want to know. That's right. Just interest. What if the if there's a $480 million in the IAS's uh accounts, whatever the interest that they're earning on that money for the year, that is their budget for the year. That's how that works. So they they cannot ever allow to spend the capital, but they are allowed to spend it might even be now. There might just be so much money that it's even maybe possibly a percentage of the percentage. Because there's so much.

SPEAKER_03 54:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

That's how we would get when we when Golden Air Productions would do the IAS events, we would be told before months before the event, this is the exact budget that you that we will pay. And any penny over that, you guys, that's out of Golden Arrow Productions, you're paying for that. We're not paying. We're not paying a penny over what the budget is.

SPEAKER_04 55:11

I mean that IRS, what a stupid idiot agency. How does a tax uh agency say you're a religion or not a religion, number one? And then also give it to somebody like this.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

It's cra well because they they put the they put the pressure on. They put the they put those screw they put the screws to the IRS, which is also a kind of crazy thing. If you know Scientology's history and infiltrating the government and all this other stuff, for them to for the IRS to say, hey, you owe us a billion dollars in back taxes, and for Scientology to say, no, not only do we not owe you a billion dollars, but you're gonna give us the keys to the kingdom and we'll give you something just to wet just to just to call it good.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

I think they're because we have TIs on your top guys following around and finding out all the bad things you guys have been doing. Oh, yeah. So it can't be a good idea. Can you imagine irregularities and all that stuff? And you want to go after us, we're going after you. And it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yeah, they went after the Scientology, went after the individual IRS agents themselves. That were and not just the ones that were doing Scientology stuff. All of them. They were literally digging up the dirt on every single IRS employee that they could identify.

SPEAKER_05 56:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

And suing them personally.

SPEAKER_05 56:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Law getting a lawsuit against them. Not the IRS.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

It was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Anyway, individual lawsuits. And that's another thing you know when you're there. You know all that. You know all this.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

Yeah. And people at the very top of the organization can't get a uniform that doesn't have holes in the elbows, you know, or a second pair of shoes, or and you don't get paid for years and years. While we're there just flushing millions, flushing millions, flushing millions, you know. Yeah, it is kind of forcing separation from you know, disconnection and all this kind of stuff. They're such a stupid criminal organization.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

And as a Sea Org member, we get excited we're gonna get a hundred dollar Christmas bonus.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Or a Domino's pizza, or or even a box of donuts would be like did they have that in flag too?

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Would they would they basically bribe the crew with donuts and pizza in full Florida, Matt?

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Uh they would for the RPF, you know, you guys are gonna stay up, you know, day and night for the next month or something like that, you know, to make furniture for the Tampa org or whatever. Yeah. And but the good news is we're gonna have pizza every night.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

I remember at Golden Air Productions, if there was one thing that just Sea Org members just wouldn't do, even if they were supposed to do it, they just go, like, out of all the things that I'm supposed to do, I don't care about that one thing. They would say, okay, whoever does that one, and then if it was in an entire division that did that thing that nobody wanted to do, then whoever's division did that the best would get donuts. And there was a thing in Golden Air Productions where every single Golden Era Productions staff member was assigned to write to an individual Scientology organization anywhere in the world. And it was called the Org Gold Officer. And you're where their represent you were their representative for Golden Era Productions. Didn't matter where you worked, if you were the deputy deputy dumpster guy or if you were the treasury bills person, everybody had to write like at least like 10 or 15 letters a week.

SPEAKER_05 58:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

And then nobody would ever do it. And L. Run Hubbard is the one who said to set all this up. He made a whole big thing out of it. If p if you work in Golden Era Productions, you gotta have your finger on the pulse of what's happened in the Scientology organizations. And most of the time he'd be like, hey Bob, I haven't heard from you for a few weeks. Hit me back, Mark. And then you just put that in there. So it would just be the the most minimal amount of writing that you could do. But whenever an organiz uh

Waste, Renovations, And Money Control

SPEAKER_00 59:10

a division of Golden Era Productions would be the one who wrote the most letters, they would get donuts. And I'm telling you, it was like dropping chum into a piranha. You know what I'm saying? Like if you were lucky, you got one. But some people were just, whoa. It was like it was literally like a feeding frenzy. But they would do that. I I 15 years ago in Air Productions, there was probably a thousand things where it was bribed with donuts or pizza. Yeah. Pizza. Dominoes or donuts all day long.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

Yep. Absolutely. So I think we should do some questions and um and wrap it up because we were going to I did also want to talk about our our mutual experiences with Fair Game since leaving, but that's a whole other conversation. So you have to say about that for sure. Yes, I know. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Um I don't there's not a lot of questions, but I'm gonna put this one in here. Um and we'll just see what it seems.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

There's a few questions. I started okay. So declared PTS says I started paying on my freeloader bill, but then decided they were full of it when the ethics officer told me to do the A to E steps from my PTS declared.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

That means potential trouble source.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

Yes. That basically told me I was never getting back in. Yep. There you go. Exactly. They that they set the rules and it's never the same playbook. Depend it depends on who the person is, who their family is. It depends on how close they were to miscavige, how many times they saw him beat people up, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah, this one's funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:47

Um uh question. So let me get this straight. Only people who've passed have completed a billion-year contract. Who enforces that LLO? Yeah, I know. I was thinking about that when we were talking at the beginning about the billion year contracts. There's not even one documented case that I know of where someone even got credit for a prior lifetime service in the C organization, right? Never happened. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Yeah, this is another great one.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Uh, when you visited Scientology website 15 years ago, there was actually content boasting about how many CDs they could produce per day. It was so weird. Like a grade school educational film.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah, well, do you know what? I just you when you say that, you're right. David Miscavige has a big thing about how much this thing can make when they have this new warehouse that does all the books and the like we can print 50 million uh banners every eight seconds. And it's like, who wants to print 50 million banners every eight seconds? I mean, dude, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Like he's just trying to be so and you got like what 10,000 active members?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Yeah, we need we need all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Well, they even do it at the events, they're like, we made it clear every eight seconds of last year. You know, and you're just like you're like you, but but you do the math and you're like, dude, that's not even 1% of Los Angeles. Like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, like the the numbers are so disproportionate to what you would need to do if you were just spending a reasonable amount on certain things. It's kind of you're right, it's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

It was a whole thing for events gather around and try to spin how you know spin how to word it so that yeah, it's and Mark Yeager, Mark Yeager was the master at that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

I definitely remember that. He'd be like, we had so many success stories that if you stacked them up, it would reach to the moon.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

Like it's usually and then they would show a graphic from Earth to the moon with success stories stacked.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:58

And you're like everyone's clapping.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

Wow. The best part is you can do the math. We would do the math on those all the time. So it was like Eiffel Tower, Empire State Building, Statue of Liberty. It's like the usual suspects for us. We'd be like, so what how many of those did we get? We get it and be like, is that as high as the Statue of Liberty if we stacked those end to end? If they were eight and a half by fourteen? You know, you're like doing the math at the research desk. But if you think about it, you couldn't show the graph.

unknown 1:03:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

Because last year, last year it was either zero or it was higher than the Statue of Liberty. So when you see those things in Scientology, know that they're dodging the reality of what it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

And that's why I was making explosions.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Everybody sees the Empire State Building, go, yeah, it was a real tall billion uh building down in New York City. And you go, like, yeah, but if you stacked the courses and did that, it would be 85 courses were done last year. Not actually that much. It's uh Well, because the way we you would think, well, if we stacked those courses t uh end to end, well, that's how you you you're supposed to interpret it. But what we're doing is we're saying, okay, the course pack, that's two, because it has a front and a back, and then we're doing each page of the course pack, and then we're saying, well, those are two-sided. So a course pack is 500 pages. Yep. And so immediately we've increased the factor of what you're thinking by 500. Because we're not just stacking one course we're not just stacking a course pack one to one. No, we're stacking the course pack and the entire contents of the course pack end to end. So it's just a it's just a nifty way of manipulating the data so that it looks like it went up, but it's actually it's never been lower in the history of science.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

Yeah, Catherine commented the income doubled.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

Yeah, it went from $100 to $200. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yeah, but it was one from five, you know, one to five. Well, you don't know that because they don't give you the number next to it. It's just five X and an explosion happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Boom!

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

Woo, and they're on to the next thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Anyway, it's it's that that's how the that's how the inside millionaires, and that's the other kind of thing, if you think about it. If the people that are still in Scientology, for them for the majority of them, are people who are high net worth individuals that are networking with other high network individuals within Scientology. And basically they're helping each other make millions so that they can stay in this network and also give Scientology some of that. Yep. Because that's how they're able to do all. Like Grant Cardone and Bob Duggan and all these guys, when you go to If you find a uh high net worth Scientologist, they know all those other high networks Scientology.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Exactly. It's a small club.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

And they're the ones that are being fooled by all this tomfoolery that David Miscavige is up to. Those are the smartest guys in Scientology, and he they're being bamboozled seven times a year at these events that they have.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

I didn't I have not seen one question. There's not one question that started.

unknown 1:06:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

All right. Well, then I will uh have you done any episodes on business or other scientol others Scientology has gone against? Remember the Clearwater aquarium trying to be bought out of development by Scientology. Yeah, that's a that's a good a good topic. I'll add that to our list.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Yeah, the a lot of these things, it's not that easy to cover some of these things that Scientology is up to in an hour or two video. If you have any questions on anything that Scientology's ever done, I guarantee you it's been covered over at Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker. He does a story every single day. There's not a lot of story. I mean, he's digging up every story there is for the most part that's coming to him or people that have stories in order to put out that much content. And he's been doing it at least 20 years, maybe even more since he was in Phoenix, the Phoenix uh publication that he was part of.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:27

Yeah, I think he said 1995 is when he started.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

Anyway, yeah, there's a lot. But yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

You can deep dive on those, find out, and you can also just Google, just get on your Google.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Yep, here's a question. Can you clarify the 5,000 number of FLAG? Was that Sea Org members at FLAG or number of public living in Clearwater or number of public doing upper level classes in Clearwater?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

It was number of Scientologists worldwide. Any Scientologists that did any, you know, given uh that much money or debiting that much money, like 1,500 bucks over three years. It was public. Like it was simple. It was like these were from all over the world that's come to flag. You know, from all any way you looked at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

Yeah, it wasn't C or that number does not include C or the Captain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:17

Wow. Yep, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

That tracks. I bet over the past few years, I've sort of settled in this number, which is like between like 10 and 20,000 of Scientologists worldwide, active, consider themselves a Scientologist, not necessarily giving Scientology money or doing things, but consider themselves like, yeah, I'm a Scientologist. If you if you really put me to it, I'm a Scientologist. There's not more than 20,000 of those people in the world that are doing that. So um, and then it varies with the how many C org members. There's about 5,000 Sea Org members. There was about 5,000 Sea Org members worldwide of every single C organization, it wasn't definitely not more than 5,000. And probably now it's more probably closer to like 2,500 between Flag and PAC and the base. Because the other bases are in like 20 people, 30 people here and there. It's not a lot.

unknown 1:09:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:13

Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

Maybe UK, it's not just not that many.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:16

No, ma max UK, I don't know. Maybe 50. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

Anyway, um, so yeah, those are the figure that Matt was talking about, those are people that are given money or spending money at Flag over a three-year period international.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

That's right. Yep. And as far as number of staff, I mean, in 1985, Flag crew celebrated hitting 200 staff. When I left in 2005, they didn't have 200 staff.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

Yeah. This is a great question, too. This is a kind of a funny one.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

Question. Is it true that you cannot join Scientology in Clearwater?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

It is true. It is true. Yeah. Because the way the Scientology training and counseling is worked up is you start at maybe a mission or getting a test on the street on an e-meter. Yep. And then you somehow do an introductory course. And you can do the introductory course at the mission, or you can do the introductory course at an organization, Scientology

Audience Q&A And Clearwater Details

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

organization. But once you do that, you only get to a certain level at that organization. And then you have to go to an advanced organization. And then the advanced organization is where you can find out about Xenu and the Body Thetans. And uh new merch, their new tour merch is on the uh click down on the products there, and you can get a Xenu and the uh Body Thetans 2026 World Tour uh shirt. Um so you find out about the Xenu and the Body Thetans, and then when you get to a certain level of OT levels, then you have to go to Florida, Clearwater. And so most of the people, that's a good point, most of the people that would be part of that 5,000 number are advanced level Scientologists. They're not the beginner Scientologists, they're the ones that have stayed in Scientology long enough to get to this higher level in Scientology to do to do training or counseling. So if you're in Clearwater and you want to get into Scientology, you have to go to Tampa and you have to go to the or Largo.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

I think there's a mission or something like that in Largo.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Is Largo close to Clearwater?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

Yes, it is. Yeah, it's like the next town over.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

Okay, so maybe there's a mission in Largo. But even if you went to that mission in Largo and did everything they could do, you still end up at Tampa before you get to Clearwater. So no matter what, you'd have to go to Largo or Tampa for years and do things for years before you would get to the level where you would be even allowed to go hang out with these uh the people that are at Florida doing these courses, they have very, very few body thetans left. They have been they've been evicting body thetans for years and years. If you get some newbie from Largo, he could have 10 million body patents on him. You don't want him anywhere near that place.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:59

Oh God. Okay, here's a good one. Half question shout out. Miss Mike Rinder's voice and stories. Yes, we all do. Yeah. Who do you wish would speak out who was or is still in? I I have a good answer to this, and then I'd love to hear you guys. My two, Angie Blankenship and Tommy Davis.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

Okay. Yeah. I would just like anybody to speak.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

Well, no, but I mean, those people have things that need to be reported to law enforcement, need to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

Shelley Miscavige.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Uh David Miscavige. I can list all kinds of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

I okay. I was reading it differently. Not I was reading it. People who've got out.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

Who um but either way, I see your your your point.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

I would like everybody who's left to tell what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:44

Anyone who's witnessed Scientology's abuse and criminal activity. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:48

Like, like Greg Hughes, for example. Yes. How does how do they Ron Norton? I mean, they saw what I saw. And how are they just like, doo-doo-doo? Everything's freaking normal.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

It just pisses me off so much. You know, like I feel like having a conversation with them and say, you know, like, wake up. What are you supporting?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:09

But then he won't have access to that net network of Scientologists that have money that all know who he is.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Greed, greed, but I'm saying Scientology together.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Yep. I'm saying it's not greed and cowardice. It's not too hard to figure out why he did that. He wanted to speak to the kids and his wife. And he still wanted to talk to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:29

Me too, Amy.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:30

You and me both. I want to see this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

What's this one about?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:33

Okay, yes. Scientology bought the spaghetti warehouse in Ybor, Tampa, is a Scientology noodle factory now.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

I think that last part was a joke. I don't think they really make they really make uh body fate and noodles there.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:50

It's a Scientology noodle factory.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

Space cootie. That's the cigar. That's the one we did that. We when we were still there, that opened.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:58

Yes, it did. Oh, it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:00

Yeah, I worked on that for a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

It was basically again. It was a big deal that was made out of this thing. It's just a small little office building, like a small little spot. It's not like the the in Wybor.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:15

That's who the center is.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Yeah, but it's just like a two-story office center. The organization, no, they got a a a big building there.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

I know the org, but the one that was made that was like the the noodle thing or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

Yeah, it's it's pretty small. Yeah, but it's a lot of people. You're supposed to just test people and route them over to the main org.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

It was a restaurant before. So it was not like it was a sprawling metropolis for Scientology.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

But somebody said it was a huge two-story building that was supposed to just take in all the new people that got routed to it. I went there maybe six months after it got opened. Yeah. And I said, there was nobody in this building. It was huge. Two stories went on for like, I don't know, and there's nobody there. Nobody. And I I talked to the person that worked there and I said, Has anybody ever done a course in this building? And she said, No, the only things we ever did in this building was we gave some free how to speak English to some of the locals that weren't even Scientologists. Oh my goodness. Wow. Oh my goodness.

unknown 1:15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:17

Wow. Crazy, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

You got any more?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:20

All right. No, we're good. Do you want to do the giveaway? Yes. Let's see.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

I might have to add Matt Namy into this thing. Here we go. See if I can do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:30

Yay. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

Okay, so I've got to go to that screen. And that screen. Sorry guys, I didn't I didn't plan for this. I I was there we go. It's another question.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:44

Any questions we didn't cover in this conversation that you would like us to cover later with Matt Namie, put it in the comments.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

Yeah, or just if even if you just want us to cover it. We don't always have the luxury of having a we do not.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

We're very grateful to you both for coming on today. Thank you. We like to do a giveaway.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

We like to do a giveaway at the end of the video, and anyone who made a comment at all during the video is entered in to win this giveaway. And this is the button right here that I'm going to press.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

And there this is a an a software that's offered by StreamYard. I have no control over who it picks, and it's completely random. So, Kim Fleming, you are the lucky winner. Congratulations, Kim. Send an email at to Claire at Blown for Good, and she will send you a link to is it a Davy dolling?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:32

No, just send me an email with your address, and you will be the new owner of a fake Navy Davy.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

There you

Giveaway, Thanks, And Closing Links

SPEAKER_00 1:16:40

go. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:42

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:42

Um, that was good, guys. We appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:45

Yes, thank you both so, so much. It's always wonderful to see your faces and hear your input, comments, stories, etc. Always a great time. We appreciate you both.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

Oh, here we go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:56

Thank you for having us both. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Yes. Matt, Mamie, please come back soon. Yes. Yes. Everybody loves you guys. And like I said, you have amazing perspective and important voices.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:08

So thank you. Okay, guys, that's the end. We'll put up the uh people who give shout-outs uh from where they're from. We'll put that up during the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:18

Perfect. We'll see you next time. Till next time, guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to help support the channel, feel free to check out the merch store link in the description. We have Hail Xenu, Xenu is my homeboy and BFG branded mouse pads, shirts, mugs, all sorts of other stuff in there that helps us to bring you new content on a regular basis. You can also pick up a copy of my book, Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology in hardback, Kindle, and Audible versions as well. There's also a link to our podcast, and you can get that on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to watch another video, you can click on this link right here, or you can click on this one here, or you can click on the subscribe button right here. Thanks a lot, until next time.