The Rant Podcast
A bi-weekly podcast focused on pulling back the curtain on the American higher education system and breaking down the people, the policies and the politics. The podcast host, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, is a known innovator and leader in higher education. The podcast will not pull any punches as it delves into tough questions about the culture, politics and policies of our higher education system.
The Rant Podcast
Navigating the Next Four Years with Janet Napolitano
The drumbeat against higher education continues to grow louder. In this revealing conversation with Janet Napolitano—former Arizona Governor, Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama, and President of the University of California—we explore the existential threats facing America's great research universities.
Janet pulls no punches when discussing the political headwinds threatening higher education. With potential cuts that could strip "billions of dollars" from research universities like UC, we're witnessing what she describes as "eating our seed corn"—jeopardizing the very innovation pipeline that has powered America's global leadership. Graduate students, who become tomorrow's researchers and innovators, are already feeling the impact as professors hesitate to hire them amid funding uncertainty.
Equally concerning is the assault on First Amendment rights on campus. While Janet clearly disagrees with many of the protest positions on issues like Gaza, she warns that universities have historically been strongholds of free speech—and current efforts to punish institutions and students for protected expression marks a dangerous shift in American values.
Perhaps most illuminating is Janet's description of public universities as "the secret sauce for how the United States has become the top performing economy in the world." This isn't just rhetoric—it's backed by decades of evidence showing how accessible higher education creates social mobility and economic prosperity. Yet this story isn't reaching enough Americans, as costs rise and communication failures allow stereotypes to flourish.
For those feeling overwhelmed by today's political polarization, Janet offers practical wisdom: limit social media consumption, contact your representatives, and organize around issues you care about. "Democracy takes work," she reminds us. "You can't just be a passive recipient of democracy." In these challenging times for higher education and democratic institutions alike, her experienced voice provides both warning and hope.
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant Podcast, the podcast that pulls back the curtain and breaks down the people, the policies and the politics of our higher education system. In this episode I get to sit down with my friend and colleague who is a veteran politician, an author and higher education leader. Her name is Janet Napolitano, and Janet has had an amazing career in public service. She has held positions such as the Attorney General and Governor of the state of Arizona. She has held positions such as the Attorney General and Governor of the state of Arizona. She was the Secretary of Homeland Security for President Barack Obama and served as the President of the University of California. She's now a member of the faculty at the UC Berkeley Goldman School of Public Policy and she has a wide array of experiences that center on many of the issues impacting higher education today.
Speaker 1:But before we jump into my conversation with Janet, I want to take a moment to reflect on the last few weeks since the recording of my last podcast. Things are changing so fast these days it's hard to keep up with all the news. In my last podcast I talked about the possible dismantling of the Department of Education and how that would have a devastating impact on states. Well, fast forward to today. The executive order has been signed. Secretary McMahon has been given the marching orders to begin the dismantling of the Department of Education. What does all this mean? Well, I really don't know, but I'm going to give you my thoughts. First, while there is an executive order, secretary McMahon has her hands full to decide how to deal with all the elements that go into the Department of Education. And I strongly believe that, while there is going to be some significant reduction in size of the Department of Education, reduction in scope, I don't see how many of the programs that are within the Department of Education will go away. Many of those programs affect everyday working Americans in states across this country. Nevertheless, there is going to be a serious effort to look to see how they can scale back many of the programs in the Department of Education. So, everything from financial aid, which I've touched on before, there's been rumors that financial aid FSA may go to SBA, the Small Business Administration, and while that may seem relatively straightforward to some people, it's just amazing for me to think how FSA, which is one of the largest financial programs that the federal government manages that touch the lives of people is going to a relatively small agency that has its hands full dealing with all the money that goes out to small businesses. But we'll see. Certainly, linda McMahon has experience with SBA, being the former administrator during the first Trump administration.
Speaker 1:But you also have programs like Title I that affects K-12 schools throughout the country. You have programs like Title V that support institutions that serve low-income working Americans throughout this country, and you have the Title IV program which, as I mentioned, serves to support financially low-income Americans of all backgrounds. These are not DEI programs. These are programs aimed at supporting those Americans that have the least resources and give them an opportunity to access a quality education so that they can participate meaningfully in the economy.
Speaker 1:If the Department of Education is dismantled in the ways that some talking heads have been talking about, we are going to undermine the American workforce. We are going to undermine a talent pipeline that's sorely needed in every community of every state in this nation. We cannot take this lightly. This is going to have devastating impacts on the talent pipeline for the workforce of tomorrow, for the workforce of tomorrow, and so we need to ensure, we need to advocate, we need to highlight the importance of many of the programs within the Department of Education. We can have debates about where these programs should lie, how they should be constructed, who they should serve, but the fact of the matter is we are in a moment in time in this country where we need to invest in building the workforce of tomorrow, and these programs are specifically designed to support states in doing their job, their role as overseeing education in their states.
Speaker 1:One can say the states should take this on by themselves, but there is a reason the federal government has had to insert itself. Over the last 20, 25 years, states have significantly divested in public support of education in most states in this country, and so, without the federal government partnering with states, it's going to be very difficult to think how states are going to come up with those resources at a time when there are greater and greater demands on state budgets. So I hope that you join me in talking to your congressional representatives, talking to your local advocacy groups, talking to students, administrators, anybody who will listen, about the importance of ensuring that we build programs within the federal government that continue to support a healthy and thriving American workforce. Okay, with that backdrop, please enjoy my conversation with Janet Napolitano. Janet, welcome to the Rant Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, good to see you, lloyd.
Speaker 1:It's great to see you too, Janet. It's been a little while, but you look great. You look rested. Things must be going well in your neck of the woods, hopefully.
Speaker 2:They're going pretty well, but the things I control are doing very well. Things I don't control I have some concern about.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we're all saying the serenity prayer these days. Yeah. So, Janet, it's been what? Roughly five years since you left the post of president of the University of California. A lot has changed. In those five years, A lot has been going on. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen in the last five years? Within the University of California, but also, more broadly, the Research One University landscape?
Speaker 2:For those who are listening to this podcast, our one, universities, is a subcategory of higher ed.
Speaker 2:And these are universities that spend a certain percentage of their budget on basic research.
Speaker 2:And there are also universities where you find not only master's programs but PhD programs and, in the way the United States kind of scientific establishment is set up, it's where the bulk of basic research that underlies many developments in our country and many swaths of our economy emanate from our R1 universities. And with the addition of UC Merced this year as an R1 university, all of the campuses of the UC system are R1. And so that's a great thing. You know the University of California, it's an interesting institution. It has a grand history, but what I'm seeing is evolving over time. It is an incredible emphasis on being an opportunity maker an opportunity maker for first generation students, an opportunity maker for students from lower income backgrounds, an opportunity maker for Californians, more and more Californians attending the University of California, and that's great, because a great public university, which is what the University of California is, should be building the future for the state, and I think that role has been an increasing focus of the University of California.
Speaker 1:Well, I certainly agree with you. I firmly believe that the UC is really the backbone of innovation, of scientific research, of great ideas for the state of California and a big reason why the state of California is what it is today. So we both certainly agree on that. Now, as you are sort of watching what's going on these days from the sidelines, what do you see as some of the biggest challenges to universities like the University of California today?
Speaker 2:Well, the number one challenge is the new administration in Washington DC, and I'll take it in a couple of buckets. First of all, this administration has never been a fan of higher education, which it presumes to be just kind of institutions that foment liberal unrest, or what have you. Be that as it may, the restrictions on research funding are severe and fundamental, and for R1 universities they are demonstrating the University of California. If the recent moves by the administration are hold they've been held up in court for right now but if they hold it will literally be billions of dollars of loss to the University of California, billions of dollars. It means that programs even now, professors even now, are not hiring graduate students because they don't know they will have funding for them.
Speaker 2:Well, what are graduate students? Graduate students become not just the professors of the future, they become the researchers of the future. They become the researchers of the future, they become the developers, the innovators of the future. And you know, it's like eating our seed corn not to support this big research enterprise. So that is an existential risk to the University of California.
Speaker 2:The second existential risk to higher education in general is this business of targeting universities for not being active enough in combating anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2:Now, what universities need to do is an unanswered question, but we've seen what is happening to Columbia University in New York, where not only have they had $400 million in research just summarily dropped We'll see whether that holds up but where the administration recently seized a student who graduated last year, who was a leader in the Gaza-Israel demonstrations which were very active at Columbia and was one of the negotiators for the pro-Gaza, pro-hamas, if you will position in those demonstrations, and he's here in the United States as a legal permanent resident.
Speaker 2:And they seized him in New York, where he has an American wife who's pregnant, and immediately moved him to immigration detention in Louisiana and are seeking to deport him, even though he is a legal permanent resident. And I am sure that they have a list of students they've been able to identify who participated in demonstrations, didn't violate any laws. You may disagree vociferously or vehemently with their positions, which I do, but nonetheless universities in this country traditionally have been where First Amendment protections have been the strongest and this is a direct attack on that. And it will be a struggle for universities to figure out how to protect the First Amendment rights of students and faculty and staff in this kind of context and in that connection they already have a list of 10 or so universities they want to quote, investigate beyond Columbia University, and that list includes both Berkeley and UCLA.
Speaker 1:It's amazing to watch, given just the history of First Amendment protests on all university campuses. I mean, when you and I spent time with the University of California, I don't think there was a meeting that went by without some sort of protest about one thing or another. And it is just a way of life and I think whether, as you mentioned, whether you agree or disagree with the protesters, it is part of that university life, the experience, the opportunity to express yourself and to express ideas, regardless of whether or not most people agree with them. So the sudden shift here is I think, while I don't think it caught it shouldn't have caught anybody by surprise, but it certainly is causing a lot of consternation on campuses.
Speaker 1:Now, given your experience and you know, for people living under a rock, you have a wide array of experiences in the public. You've been elected several times in a swing state like Arizona, as attorney general, as governor. In a swing state like Arizona, as attorney general, as governor, you served in probably what many consider today as one of the more controversial cabinet seats, the Secretary of Homeland Security. And, of course, you led the University of California. So what do you make of this populist movement that's going on? You know the president is a president and we all have experienced the kind of craziness that happens, but this movement across the country toward a populist agenda, what do you think is behind this, and how do we in the higher education sector begin to sort of shift the direction of some of that frustration?
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the things in higher ed is that when people think higher ed, they think the Ivy League. The Ivy League is not higher ed. You know, 80, 85 percent of college students in this country go to public universities and in California a great many of those start at the community colleges, as you're well aware, and then if they seek to transfer to a four-year, either Cal State or UC or elsewhere, and somehow in this country we have lost the value of having an education beyond high school. What does it mean and how does it assist students? I think we lost that because of cost.
Speaker 2:The cost went up and for public universities they went up a lot during the 08, 09 period when states cut back on their funding and really the only alternative was for tuition to increase and also the increasing perception increase and also the increasing perception which is bolstered on social media, any number of ways that universities somehow are not fair. They're not fair to those who have more conservative belief, they're not fair to faculty or students who are from the more conservative part of our country in terms of their philosophy, and that combination really plays into, you know, these increasingly unpopular view of higher ed in national polls, where higher ed used to be really near the top in terms of institutions that people trusted and liked. Now you know we're not as low as Congress, but we're on the right track.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty low bar. Yeah for sure, Given your experience in politics, Janet, you understand better than most how political winds change, sort of what drives some of these movements. And you mentioned the challenges with research universities and research funds. We've heard from the administration these tropes, you know. We hear DOGE representatives talking about the waste that they found in research funding. You know, I think the most recent one is money spent on trying to change the sex of some sort of reptile or something. And they use these tropes to undermine the value of the research dollars that the federal government puts into motion and leads to tremendous discoveries throughout the country and throughout the world. What can higher education leaders do differently to combat that misinformation?
Speaker 2:Well combating disinformation. If I had the answer to that, maybe I'd be in the White House, who knows? But it is easy to cherry pick among the hundreds of thousands of research grants and find ones that seem titled in a weird way without asking well, why are they doing that? And I think the project you referenced is they're not doing sex changes on laboratory mice, they're trying to figure out the hormonal differences, which then will translate into research, into things like ovarian cancer, and it's kind of ridiculous to manage your research enterprise that way. I think the whole Doge enterprise is misguided. It's misguided in several fundamental ways. First, let's begin.
Speaker 2:Every large institution and the federal government is comprised of large institutions. I ran one of those. I ran the third largest agency in the federal government. I know the fact that you can find some waste in there and everybody should be doing efficiency reviews and the like makes a lot of sense and everybody should be focused on that to make the highest and best use of the taxpayer dollars we have.
Speaker 2:However, just going willy nilly and saying, well, I don't like this agency and I don't like this agency and I don't like this, without any knowledge of what the work is, what employees are actually doing what the value of that work is, who it serves. It means that it is the metaphor you currently you hear often is it's cutting with an ax and not a scalpel. Well, if you're going to really cut with a scalpel, you got to get in there. You really have to understand what you're dealing with. And the fact that Doge came in, didn't listen to anybody, didn't consult with anybody, brought in a bunch of 20 something year old tech bros and and said here, you guys, you know, set up some bunk beds in this agency and and, just, and, and just figure out all the people you can fire. That is not the way to restructure government.
Speaker 1:Well, that's for sure the absurdity of the way they're going about it. And look, I agree with you. I mean, you and I have both had to manage through large higher education bureaucracies. There's lots of things that certainly frustrated me about local, state, federal bureaucracy, and certainly I'm one of those people who believe that we could do things a lot more efficiently and effectively with taxpayer dollar. However, just bringing in your chainsaw and cutting everything apart is just craziness, given how much interconnectivity there is between states and the federal government today.
Speaker 1:I mean, by and large, higher education relies heavily on the federal government, whether you agree with that or don't agree with that. And if you don't agree with it, there are ways to begin to wean states off. But you can't just do it overnight. Now let me hone in on two areas of expertise that you certainly have. I mean, obviously we're talking about higher education, whether research university, regional four-year university or community college, serves its community more that we can do to skill the local workforce, regardless of where they came from. The better off local economies are going to be, the better off state economies are going to be. How do we do a better job in higher education to make that case, to make the economic case for the inclusivity of people in the economy and making sure that they're upskilled.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, we need to talk about it more. Very few people in California know that almost 40% of the students are first in their families to go to college. Very few people know that over 35% of the undergrads don't pay any tuition because their families make less than $80,000 a year. I kept saying it and saying it and saying it when I was pregnant, but that's in a way it's not a story that, for whatever reason, people were interested in hearing and the media was interested in covering.
Speaker 2:And maybe it makes sense for higher education universities to be more active on social media platforms, particularly more conservative social media platforms, and kind of give the lie to the stereotypes that have developed about higher education. You know, public higher education in the United States is the secret sauce for how the United States has become the top performing economy in the world and it is the basis of the richness and the diversity of our economy. And to attack it, to cut it off, to not fully appreciate what it does, is a tragedy, and it begins with a tragedy of communication. And then also the university. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
Speaker 1:We sink into academic lingo, speak and, oh my gosh, really the new terms for who you are growing up as a second generation Mexican-American, I'm the son of immigrant Just trying to even understand what label I should apply to myself today, given the academic scholarship around trying to identify who we are. And I understand why we do that and I understand the importance of that. I understand the importance of that. I understand the importance of getting deep into a better understanding of humanity, but the way it translates into everyday life sometimes gets lost and then we become victims of our own work. Now, if you were coming on today as a higher education leader, or if there's a higher education leader who rang your cell and said, janet, what advice would you have for me in leading this big public institution today? What would that advice be?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's tough because, as you mentioned, eli, higher education and particularly R1 institutions are heavily dependent on federal dollars, and institutions are heavily dependent on federal dollars, and students are heavily dependent on federal dollars for student aid, financial assistance, and in this administration, they are more than willing to cut off money if you're not seen as doing what they want, and so the traditional independence of higher ends is directly under financial attack. Advice would be to prioritize your battles and figure out which are the ones that are truly existential versus which are the ones you know you're just going to have to swallow A place like the University of California. You know, figuring out those lines may come sooner rather than later.
Speaker 1:So what do you make of some of the recent moves? We have a new Secretary of Education Under McMahon and I think, almost immediately there was a move to lay off half of the staff of the Department of Education and while, as I mentioned before, I think a lot of us would agree that there are changes that need to be made, how do you see this playing out in your mind? Do you see the Department of Education go away or do you think there are just some fundamental things that the department does that common sense will eventually settle in and we'll hang on to some of those?
Speaker 2:You know, I would like to see the Department of Education create a national initiative to increase reading and math scores in our K-12 students. Let's talk about what goes on in the classroom. We spend a lot of time talking about what goes on in the bathroom, but we are not spending any time talking about what goes on in the classroom and really create a national expectation of excellence in our public schools in particular. And if the Department of Education took that on and the Secretary of Education took that on, I think the country would be better off for it on and the Secretary of Education took that on, I think the country would be better off for it. Instead, we're going to spend a lot of time as she goes about whittling down the Department of Ed. She can't get rid of it. It was created by Congress. We'll see what Congress does with some of this, and there are some basic services that DOE Department of Ed provides that well. If they're not going to be at, the Department of Ed will need to be moved to other cabinet departments, for example the whole student loan program, which so many students rely on for their higher ed budgets.
Speaker 2:But you know, I just think the messaging is wrong. It diminishes the value of education, and in a democracy like ours, education is so very, very important. And you know I've been waiting to hear some grand pronouncement. We've heard that the president wants us to go to Mars. Well, do you know what that means? That means we need lots of students who become engineers, who become scientists, who become technologists. You know who can muster that kind of effort. But we're not hearing any of that. We're just going to somehow magically go to Mars.
Speaker 1:Yes, magically go to Mars. Well, we'll see how that all works out and we will hope for the best. I think there's some folks that I know I would love to send to Mars, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. So, Janet, as we begin to wrap up here, let me pick on your political brain here. As I talk to folks in California or across the country, I'm sure you hear the same thing in your travels People are frustrated. They feel like things have gotten away from them. They feel like the politics have gotten away from them. They feel like they're constantly on the defensive, wondering what's going to happen when they wake up and look at their social media feed. What's your advice to folks about how to take back or at least feel like they're more empowered in today's politics, in today's dialogue, given some of the frustration people feel?
Speaker 2:I think, Eli, that I would encourage people to stay off social media.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Or to recognize that in social media, in a way, they're being played and to take with a grain of salt any information they see there. I would encourage people to stay tuned in. I would encourage people, on issues that are direct concern to them, to be in touch with their congresspeople and their senators. People say, well, they don't pay any attention to that or whatever. And I've been on the hill and I say you know what, if they hear from a lot of people, they pay attention. And that is, you know, something that is important for people to express. Democracy takes work. You can't just be a passive recipient of democracy. Democracy is all of us and everybody needs to play a part. And if you're so inclined, organize, organize, organize, organize around an issue, organize with a group of people, but that's also part of the work of democracy.
Speaker 1:Well, janet, I really appreciate you taking some time to talk to us here on the Rant podcast and, although it goes without saying, I will repeat it again I really thank you for all your service all these years, and I think your experience today is probably more important than ever as we all try to navigate our way forward through this very turbulent times, not just in this country, but throughout the globe. So thank you for your continued work, thank you for your continued service and thank you for being here on the RAND podcast. Well, thank you, eloy, and thank you for your continued work.
Speaker 2:Thank you for your continued service and thank you for being here on the Rant podcast. Well, thank you, eloy, and thank you for your service. You've also contributed quite a bit.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, folks, you've been listening to my conversation with Janet Napolitano. It's been a pleasure to have her here on the Rant podcast. If you're following us on YouTube, continue to follow us on this YouTube channel, hit subscribe. And if you're following us on your favorite podcast platform, continue to follow us and we will be back to you soon with more episodes here on the Rent Podcast. Thank you.
