Non-Duality and the Actor with Special Guest - Stephen Park

This week features a conversation with American actor, Stephen Park.

Stephen has had a varied career working with some of the best directors in the business. After a break out role in Spike Lee’s ‘Do the Right Thing’, Stephen went onto star in the popular 90s sketch comedy In Living Colour, and turned in a scene stealing performance as Mike Yanagita in Fargo. 
In more recent years, Stephen has worked with Wes Anderson three times- as Police Chef Nescaffier in The French Dispatch, also starring in Asteroid City and his latest film which has recently finished shooting. 

As well as his iconic roles, we chat with Stephen about his time studying the Spiritual Psychology of Acting and the impact it’s had on his life.

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An Awakened State production.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

When I have this idea that something's missing, and I start to feel like this sense of lack, you know, recognize like even money. Money is a story, time is a story. These are all stories that the mind tells itself, that the mind identifies with, and say, I have lack, I have something missing with me. And more and more, I think, letting go of all the stories, when we're operating at the highest vibration that we can, then our actions will be coming from a place of wisdom, from a place of compassion, from a place of love.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

This week features a conversation we had with American actor Steven Park. Steven has had a varied career working with some of the best directors in film history. After a breakout role in Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing, Steven went on to star in the popular 90s sketch comedy In Living Colour and turned in a scene-stealing performance as Mike Yanagita in Fargo. In more recent years, Steven has worked with Wes Anderson three times as Police Chef Niskafier in The French Dispatch, also starring in Asteroid City, and his latest film which has recently finished shooting. We begin by talking about some of his iconic roles and his career so far, but in the second half, we get deep and talk about Steven's time studying the spiritual psychology of acting and the impact that it's had on his life. Here's our conversation. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Thank you. Great. Great to see you, John. It's been uh 14 years.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Wow. 14 years. God, uh well, you know, like most of my life, it all seems like yesterday.

unknown 2:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

So that that would have been uh in New York. Um that was in New York, wasn't it? Very good. We remember you did a f a few a couple of workshops there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah, well, we'll come on to that. Yeah, yeah, that'd be great to talk about. Uh first it's always nice to get a bit of context for the listeners, Stephen. So firstly, what drew you to acting and when did you first want to become an actor?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Um, I I was really quite lost uh when I was going to college. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, and um I was pursuing the idea of m possibly being a doctor because my father was a doctor, and um I went to Boston University and I was taking like you know biology, chemistry classes, and I was doing terribly. I I had no interest in these subjects really, and I wasn't good at them, and I was I was failing these classes, and after two years, I was on academic probation, and my body started breaking down. I remember I had like these knee issues, and then um I transferred to uh State University of New York at Binghamton, which was uh basically where I grew up. I grew up in the upstate New York, and um I transferred there and same thing, I would start with a full load of classes, and then I remember I ended up with this one class that was being taught by my karate teacher, uh Hadi Ochiai. He was teaching uh a course on Zen. And that was the one class that I I remember taking there, and and so then I I was like basically failing, and I was like, maybe I need to drop out of school. I I don't know what I'm doing. And I was also um developed this arthritic condition where my body started breaking down and I ended up in the hospital, I couldn't move, and I uh, you know, years later recognized it as you know, it was all stress. But uh my girlfriend at the time, and I just wanted to say her name, it's uh Leslie Byrd, and I she she actually changed my life, and if she's listening to this, I wanted to thank her. But she was my girlfriend at the time, and she's she said, before you drop out, just take one semester of classes, and the only criteria is that they should be fun. Which was completely the opposite of how I approached school. Like if school wasn't miserable, then I didn't feel like I was at school, like so. I had a really kind of backwards relationship with school. Um so I took my first acting class, I took a voice class, I took a mime class and a body movement class, and I ended up getting my degree in theater. And then because I was somebody like in high school, I was I was like the class clown, I was somebody who like was making Super 8 movies all the time, and I just thought of myself as somebody who could like pursue a career in stand-up comedy. So after I graduated, I went to New York City and I just started doing open mic nights and uh fancied myself as a stand-up, and I uh got involved in my very first play, which was with uh Pan Asian Repertory Theater. It's um one of the uh preeminent Asian American theater companies, and uh did my very first play, and it was also my first kind of time being among other Asian Americans, and so it was kind of a big awakening for me, um, not only like professionally just being in theater, but also, you know, personally, culturally, um meeting other people who had similar experiences that I did.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

And what and and and up to then had that been few and far between, you know, had you you'd felt sort of culturally alienated or yeah, I I I have to say that uh you know, I dealt with racism my whole life, and that was kind of a big issue for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Like I I felt um I was very angry, you know, I think from all of my experience because I didn't know how to deal with it. I was always kind of alienated, you know, all of my friends were white. And um I I remember thinking when I went to Boston University, I had this idea like, oh, I I won't have to deal with racism anymore because people are a little bit more evolved in these cities or whatever. But I'm talking about Boston. I didn't know anything about Boston, but then I was I remember living in because I was kind of athletic, you know, I was very much into martial arts, I signed up to live in this dorm that was basically off athletes. So I was living with the football team, and um it was actually worse in terms of racism, the the what I was dealing with, and it was really like kind of like, oh wow, this is actually not what I thought thought it was gonna be. So that's why when I discovered acting and I went into uh New York City and and started getting involved with Asian American uh theater, um that was a big awakening for me. And also soon after, like I was moved to New York in 87 to start doing stand-up. 1988, I got cast in Do the Right Thing. And that was kind of like the beginning of my I would say political awakening. And also like Spike Lee was kind of a big hero of mine, and so I was very much influenced by his outspokenness, and uh so I kind of like you know was very fed by that, and and it that that was a huge influence on me.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Right. So he was a a director that you that had inspired you, you know, anyway, and you you got to work. How did you get the gig?

SPEAKER_01 8:12

I just uh auditioned. I mean, I I loved She's Gotta Habit. I I was already a big fan, and then when this audition came by uh to uh play this Korean market clerk, I was very nervous because of course I grew up uh I thought I was white, you know. I mean, like that's kind of like the environment I grew up in. So the idea of playing an immigrant Korean was scary to me. Um I remember my brother-in-law, he helped me with the dialect because I'd never had done a Korean dialect before. So it was actually, you know, I I went into the room, uh, Spike was there, I auditioned, he actually gave me the part in the room. And I was like, I was like, oh my god, you know, and I said, Can I hug you? And I hugged him, and uh I I was just thrilled to be working with him. But it it it did turn out to be a big challenge for me just because of like even though I knew nobody was going to notice, for me, playing an immigrant Korean something that I feel like as a as a young kid, I was always trying to distance myself from being perceived as a like fresh off the boat or whatever. Like, here I was having to kind of go into that and try to be convincing as an immigrant Korean. So that was really scary for me. And also um, yeah, that was also something I knew like nobody was gonna notice except me, in terms of that internal struggle that I was having playing this part.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

So was that quite a painful experience or was it quite cathartic? Because that 'cause that film, even that was made in the 80s, still has so much power today. It won't be also charged.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, it was um I was amazed that I pulled it off, quite honestly, that I was convincing as a Korean immigrant who owned a a food stand. I was only 25 at the time. So um yeah, I I I that that whole experience was uh was was quite amazing. And um, you know, working with with Spike where you know the the crew was predominantly black, it was it was so uh eye-opening um to see how he made films compared to other things that I've experienced, you know, like he was very they're they were very conscious of they were in the middle of Bed Bedford Stubus in Brooklyn, so you know there was a lot of kind of rundown places and crack houses like right next door. So it was like um and they were so respectful of the neighborhood. And uh that was I thought very inspiring because you didn't see that a lot in in uh among like studio films and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

And getting the challenge of playing a part that you know it sounds like it was kind of tailor-made to challenge you, playing, you know, yeah uh something that that you're you know that you're afraid of or in denial of or something you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Resistant of, yeah. The last thing I want to be perceived as, you know, like uh immigrant Korean, I actually have to dive into it and be convincing of that. Yeah, that was uh yeah, that was definitely a challenge for me.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

I think it's a really healthy challenge though. Do you know what I mean? I think things like that for an actor can be really healthy playing your you know, your your worst nightmare, because then you go and play it, and if you can do that, you can do anything. Do you know what I mean? If you can see those parts that are challenging.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And then I my actually, my next film, I played a Korean market clerk again, and I realized, you know, it was with a movie called Quick Change that uh Bill Murray and Howard Franklin they co-directed. And uh I I remember like the I thought, okay, I need to do something different. So I I was smoking, I was a little bit more um kind of gruff, and it was like a short scene, but then I realized I can't do this anymore, I can't be the Korean market guy, like I can't make a career of doing this. So because then there are other requests for me to be basically playing Korean market owners, and uh I I just had to stop doing it, and I I didn't want to be perceived as that as an actor, like that that's what I did, you know.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yeah, well it's a great first game to get, isn't it? With but but it's I guess yeah, you don't want to be pigeonholed after that, because that's that's the one thing yeah that you're kind of trying to get away from. So what what was your experience after that? Because that's such a a big gig to get. What what was kind of your experience as an actor, like for the the years following that?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Well, soon after that, that was 1988 that we made the movie came out in 89, and then 1990 I moved to Los Angeles. I think one of the first films I did out there was uh kindergarten cop. I played a cop. But um soon after that I got on in Living Color. That was 1991. That was also that was a huge, a huge, huge thing for me to get on that show. And also that what had its definitely had its challenges too. Um I just feel like especially at that point, this is like the early 90s, you know, and the politics of being Asian in in Hollywood is very different than it is right now. Things have changed dramatically, but back then, um, you know, it was all especially on a show like In Living Color, I felt I was shouldering uh being the representative of Asian people in America, you know, like that responsibility felt huge to me. And I was constantly feeling like I was having to be very uh mindful of what I was doing, even though it's a show about kind of making fun of stereotypes. So, like right off the bat, uh, you know, they were just writing skits for me where it was like the Kung Fu Master, you know, the ninja. So kind of like all the different stereotypes, which I love doing, it was really fun, but it didn't come without some blowback from like the Asian American community or whatever. I mean, most people were very supportive, but like, I mean, for instance, there is this one scene where I'm playing this Vietnamese guy who was like uh these uh infomercials who was selling real estate, uh something or other. He was his Tom, his name is Tom Vu, and he was always on these yachts with these women in bikinis, like just trying to project this idea that he was so successful. So I'm like, they had a skit where I'm like writing on the blackboard, and they had somebody come in and they put on the blackboard it was all Korean, and I'm Vietnamese. And to the, you know, to any non-Asian person, they're not gonna know the difference, but I knew the difference, and Korean people were gonna know the difference, but it was already done. There's nothing I could do about it. So situations like that where it's like, you know, I'm gonna get some blowback on this, and I did. I got a little blowback on that. Um, it's just these kind of like um stereotypes that were being you know perpetuated. So it was kind of navigating all of that was was uh my big challenge.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

Well, I think you've navigated it well because I've had a I've had a few students over the years in the US Um that have been you know Asian American actors and that have said that you were their inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Well that yeah, the inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah from the get-go of my career, I remember you know saying to my agents, like, I just want to break ground. Just like that was my my mission was to break new ground as an Asian American actor. So I was always looking for opportunities to do that.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

And it's good if it could then you can become an inspiration to other actors and show that you can, you know, you've you've worked against the mould and you've you you've stood up, you've stood for, and you've broken the mould for it. And you and you've you've you've charged a path as well for other actors to show that it can be done.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Well, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I had the opportunity and that uh people felt the effect of that. So I'm very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah, wonderful. So Stephen, what's your what's your your feelings then about then because obviously you you started in like in the late 80s then? Things obviously have changed a lot. Have you seen the industry evolve in terms of Asian American representation, the kind of the use of cultural stereotypes? What how is how is that shifted now? Is there still a long way to go?

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Uh well, no, I mean it's it's shifted dramatically. I mean, uh there's like Asian-led American uh movies and TV shows now, you know, like now it's be that's become the norm. When when I started, that was like unheard of. You know, it was yeah, it was just not done. You know, like the Asian characters were usually in the background, or you know, if they had a part, it was usually having had to do with them being Asian. And uh yeah, so the opportunities were limited. And the acting, Asian American acting pool. I remember back when I started like in the in the early 90s, I probably knew every Asian American actor, you know, uh after being in New York and then moving to LA. It's like I knew everybody. We all knew each other. And whenever we were auditioning for something, it was usually for being the one Asian in in the whatever the show was. So it was like, who's gonna be the one? You know, it it it it it was all very um, I think Asian American actors were a little bit more competitive with each other back then because that was the situation. We're all competing competing for the same part kind of thing. Right, yeah. Um, so it was a very different environment, I think, among Asian American actors than it is now, where I think there's a lot more support, there are a lot more organizations supporting artists. Um, yeah, things have definitely changed for the better.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

There might be a lot more Asian American actors as well that have, you know, yeah, no, tons more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I don't I can't say I know everybody anymore. Yeah, that's done, right? It's just too many. Yeah. I was thinking about everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, I mean, since 2018, I think it was, it's been like one of the biggest films of the year has always been a huge kind of Asian American film, like The Farewell or Shang-Chi, a big Marvel superhero film. Exactly. Past Lives last year was was one of my favorite films. And obviously, Everything Everywhere All at Once did huge at the Oscars. It seems to be like it's becoming much more front and center now.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah, I mean, maybe uh Crazy Rich Asians, maybe maybe a demarcation point when things shifted.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

It did so well at the box office, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, so that things changed. I think that that was kind of like broke the the the dam.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yeah, sure. That's amazing. Talking about the In Living Color, then you know, working on sketch comedy for for a little while, did that teach you anything about acting in general? You know, for that you've anything you've used in your life.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I think the thing that it taught me, yeah, it's the thing that taught me was just being looser, not and and also when there's an opportunity, depending on who you're working with, to to be more improvisational. Um, because I did have an improv background. So when because I was kind of coming more from the theater when I got on in Living Color, in the theater the playwright is King. And uh so you don't want to change the word. So I kind of had that mentality going on in Living Color. And um I remember there was some one skit that I did, and I was just doing what the line was, but I came up with a better line, but I was afraid to do it because I was new on the show. And uh, and I remember telling Damon Wayne's, like, um, I forgot what the line was, but he's like, Oh, you should have done it. And so that was kind of like the beginning of my like, oh, sometimes I need to just be more uh free in my thinking and loose and and be willing to to change things if the director allows me to. And and actually, you know, it's interesting because I was on Do the Right Thing, I did that. Then that was before in Living Color because Spike was very much, he would let the camera go. And and his his script was more of like a skeleton. So there's a lot more improv going on in Do the Right Thing. And and I improvised a couple of things because in the script of Do the Right Thing, you can't tell there's nothing about my character that indicates what his political leaning is, how he perceives uh his African-American neighbors. And I wanted to be clear that my character was not racist and that my character was uh in in support of what uh these guys were doing when they approached the store. Um there's this one line that I improvised, which was you and me same. Yeah, and so I was trying to communicate that I saw myself in the same position as them, that they they were no different than me. And so I was trying to communicate that. So that was really important to me because otherwise, if I just did the lines as they were written, I would just look like I was trying to just save myself, you know, and by saying it because the line was like, uh, I know white, I know white, I black, I black. Yeah, yeah. That was the line that was written. But I wanted to take take it a step further and go, no, you and me are we're we're the same. We're the same. And uh so I I was really wanting to get that across. So my point is that being on sketch comedy kind of opened that even more for me, the idea that wait a minute, I I need to allow myself to kind of like go in this direction or whatever my impulse is pushing me towards to do that within the confines of what the director has set up. Like somebody like Wes Anderson or Bang Jun Ho, who I've worked with, um Their storyboard is so precise. They know exactly what the frame is going to look like each shot. And I love that too. It's not that there's no freedom in that. There's a lot of freedom in that, but it's within it's kind of like a haiku. Like, how can you express something with uh like this many syllables? So, like working with Wes Anderson, I love his style and I love achieving exactly what he wants. And as I'm saying with uh director Bong, like when those guys are done with the scene and move, they they move on, you know that they got what they wanted. So that's always very satisfying to give them exactly what they wanted. So with with West, for instance, it's like he likes dialogue to be very fast, he like, you know, and and there's a certain kind of like physicality that he's always looking for. And so serving that up and and hitting the mark and and give what he wants is it's so fun. It's really fun to because you can't improve on the writing. I mean, you can't I can't improvise something better than what's what he already wrote, so I wouldn't want to. So just trying to do it with the right timing, with the right sensibility is really it's really fun to to achieve that.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Well, to execute exactly what the director wanted. You know, some directors there's a style of directing which is basically you you create the environment for the actors to create, and and you're using that, or or I suppose on on the other end of the stick is you you're absolutely meticulous about every moment. Uh I as a director I tend to flux between those two, really. Uh in some parts I want it to be really precise, but I sometimes uh worry that it might be stifling for the actor that I'm literally micromanaging their performance. Is it is that is that just me or is that ever the experience?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Uh I don't feel that like with working with Wes, for instance, that that he's micromanaging, he's he's basically cast you because he knows what you do, and then he's written this part for you. And uh it's really just about finding the fullest expression of whatever that is in that scene. Like, how can I cover every space of this of this dialogue? How can I and you know, like the the last thing I did, I've been working with him last March on his latest film, um, and I have this monologue, and like being able to deliver it, and then I was finding different like because he likes it to do a lot of takes. So each time I did a take, I tried to do it a little different. I try to find a different emphasis, and he would give me a note, okay, try this. So you're trying all these different things within the confines of the dialogue, with the within the confines of what what I'm able to do in the scene physically, but within that, there's so many options and there's so many ways of doing it. So there's a lot of room for creativity within that.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

Uh it sounds like the balance is really, really good there, you know, those two things and that that style of doing it.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Especially if you're working with a director who is so um, you know, brilliant and and uh you trust them so much because they know what you know they know what they want and they know what they're doing, and they're not going to stop. Because I I've heard stories about West work working with certain people who maybe they're not really actors or whatever, and they're not being they're not able to deliver their speech or whatever, but he will keep working with them until he gets what he wants. So that's really uh comforting to know that he's not gonna stop until he gets what he wants. He's not gonna compromise. So it's it's reassuring.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Well, and well, it must be very assuring as well to know that he actually, when he was penning the part, he had your face and your, you know, he knew you as an actor, he knew and he was writing the part with you in mind to play it, and that really that he knew what you could do as an actor, and that would have lent itself to his creative work as a writer.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah. So I I love working that way. I also love working when the director doesn't know exactly what they want, and and then you're it's more like doing theater rehearsal or something where you're trying to find something. That's fun too. I I I love doing all like working with all different kinds of directors.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

It feels like the the main thing that's coming out that you're saying was Wes being so precise, there is a lot of freedom there. And obviously, spike letting you kind of improvise the stuff. It seems to be that the the thing is like it's you're not blocking your authenticity. That's the that's the thing you maybe were afraid of if you were stopping yourself from wanting to improvise. You know, if the text is sacred. I think you've you you show that a lot in your work is you know how to bring an authenticity to every part you play. That's definitely something. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, I mean, uh absolutely that's always what I'm trying to do, but I'm also very interested in finding what's different about this character, what can I do differently here than than I've not done before.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Um do you more do you ever get the note that right, that's too much tone it down, or do you ever get the note, you know, like beef it up a bit? Finding the measure, I mean, you know, the of the performance.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I'm just thinking of this last thing I did with with Wes, and it was really about, okay, now emphasize this word. Uh, I mean, and it's like, okay, now can maybe like add a little mumble here. Um and each time he's feeding this note to you, it's like, and then you do it, and then it's like, that's great, now let's try it this way. Uh so I don't know, it's it's really kind of improvisational within a really tight structure. And I love it. I love doing that. It's it's really fun. But yeah, like notes like tone it down or whatever, it's like because we're working together. We're we're we're like uh two musicians, kind of like finding our thing together, you know, and so doing it, hearing his note, because he likes to, you know, he has his monitor and he has this little wooden chair, and then he'll come right up to uh where the actors are. So he'll be very close and he'll he'll be giving you notes while you're doing the scene, watching it on the monitor. And then sometimes he'll have he'll have the take essentially, but he'll like, let's do another one for the pleasure. So then you do like maybe three or five more takes of it. And uh so he has so much coverage, so much so many options. And he works really, really fast because he's editing that you know, that night after shooting, he's editing, so it's all happening very quickly.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Sounds like a really joyful, playful collaboration. Seems like an absolute thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah, there's nothing like working with Wes' has got his own, like we call it Westworld. I mean, it's his he he privatizes a hotel and the whole cast, the production, they're all we're all living together, we all eat together, so everybody gets to know each other, um, and he creates a sense of family. And uh, and usually the set is very close by to wherever we're living, so he'll take a golf cart, and like so it's this feeling of like you're in camp with all these people, and he's worked with most of these people before, so everybody knows what to expect, and and there's a cohesiveness, and he also seems to work with people like himself that are so detail-oriented. It's it's like uh Milena Canonera is a good example. She's this costume designer who's uh worked with Stanley Kubrick on you know Clockwork Orange, and I mean she's like such an amazing career. Um, Barry Linden, which I just saw recently, was amazing. And she made all those costumes, you know, and it was just brilliant. Um, but her her attention to detail is like amazing. Like she'll just like stare at the I mean in uh Asteroid City, I just had a Hawaiian shirt and she spent hours like looking at it and adjusting the sleeve and adjusting the hem or whatever, you know, on this Hawaiian shirt. And uh and also the hair, like looking at the hair and like, oh, this needs to be tighter, the mustache needs to be like this. Um, this needs to be above my collar if I'm playing a pilot. Like she knows, like she's researched or understands exactly what the character is supposed to look like, what the costumes of that time are supposed to look like. So completely uncompromising, just making sure that it's exactly what she wants and what what Wes wants.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

It makes such a difference as well, though, I think, because I think someone like the French Dispatch that requires a lot of viewings to just really because it's there's so much in it. You're kind of bombarded with so much of what is it really does bear up on repeat viewings. You get so much more from it. Even at Asteroid City, I was watching that again over the weekend, and my wife and I just noticed like the giant Chanel perfume bottle next to Scotty Hansen's character. It's these little details which are hilarious, and just there's things there that in the set that you just don't notice a first or even a second time.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, because I was talking to the uh the prop master about because there's so many props that are in the set that the camera never sees. Yeah, but you know, he was like saying, Well, he doesn't know necessarily if it might show up on camera. So uh everything is done like like you're actually living in that space. It's not nothing's fake, everything is like been done to the to to the max. Um yeah, I mean it's just the people that uh that are working with him are are the best at what they do. Um it's really inspiring.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Yeah, we call that the kick the kisses and caresses of an artist. It's the it's the little um attention to detail. Uh the analogy is like of were the the Impressionist paintings. I was in in Paris at the weekend, and we went to an Impressionist uh exhibition that's on there at the moment, and you go up close to these things, and they're just these splurges of paint carefully placed, but you stand back and you see a totality. Uh it's and it's very much like that, that each moment is placed with absolute love and attention, and then you step back and it makes a cohesive whole and it just transports you into the world of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 32:23

Yeah, yeah, it must be an absolute joy to to work, you know, that he's got the facilities to work like that as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very unusual. Um I don't know any other director who who works that way. I mean, maybe there are, but just the uh sense of camaraderie that he uh cultivates is is wonderful. It's really great.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

They said of Fellini, he used to say good morning to everybody and knew everybody's first name on the set. All the runners, extras, he'd learn everybody's name and he wouldn't start until he'd wished everybody a very good morning.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it takes uh that that makes such a big difference. I mean, I mean, I've done extra work. I I I know what it feels like to be uh herded around like cattle, you know. And when you have a director who has the wherewithal to learn your name, it's huge. It's a it's such a a feeling of being taken care of.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Hi, I'm Martin Delaney, and I'm here to tell you about the upcoming seminar for the spiritual psychology of acting. I ended up studying the full course, and it really helped me to develop as an actor, and most recently to prepare for a major film role that I was involved in. Following on from the teachings and techniques of the great Stanislavski, and combined with the very best in modern psychology and ancient practical wisdom, the spiritual psychology of acting will provide you with the right knowledge and a powerful toolbox of techniques to help you create any character to grow as an actor and to thrive within the industry. The seminars last for two and a half hours each, it's jam-packed with useful information and will give you a firm foundation in the main principles of the art and craft of great acting. So if you love acting and if you're looking to up your game, you can sign up via the Spiritual Psychology of Acting website or click the link in the description and enjoy the many benefits the seminar will offer you. And best of all, it's completely free.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

At what point in your life did you come across and what was your experience of it?

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Uh well, I've been a uh a spiritual seeker uh most of my life. And um it was Matt Stillman, I believe, that told me about you. I think that's how I found out about your work. And uh it was right up my alley in terms of what I wanted to. I've always been interested in in connecting more deeply, acting, and my own spiritual work or journey. And um, yeah, so your work, your class had a huge influence on me. Like one thing that I like I have the notes from the class still in 2010, but one of the huge things I remember you saying, like, what is the purpose of the audition? And you and it was to enjoy your life. That was to me was brilliant. Like, oh, of course. But it's uh you don't think that way when you're starting out as an actor. It's like I gotta get the job, you know. But yeah, we're all doing this to enjoy our our lives. So that was pretty exactly.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

That helps you to act the process rather than at the result. It's like go there, go to enjoy the audition, enjoy creating the character, and let go of the result.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And here I'm gonna read something else that's in my notes. Claim nothing, enjoy. And then from the Bhagavad Gita, man only has the right to work, but none of the fruits thereof. And then Krishna, therefore, fix your mind on me and give up the desire to create results. So it's really just about being in the moment and and playing the moment. And you know, you don't go into an audition trying to get the job. You know, that's the the the worst thing to be doing. So very, very simple but profound uh insights.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Well, you they you could say that actually in those three words, those the the what you mentioned, they're the first three words, the claim nothing in joy, that in a way the whole teaching is encaptured. If we could only really understand what that meant, claim nothing in joy, then then then we'd be free. You know, that's a whole instruction for life. It's actually from the Isha Upanishad, the first of the Upanishads, it says, All that lives is full of the Lord, claim nothing in joy, and then hope for a hundred years of life doing your duty. Wow. Wow. So but I give that as an exercise to students, just pause, you know, do in the coming week, just um when you can remember, just pause for a moment and just sound in the mind and the heart the words claim nothing enjoy and then proceed. And they find it just brings this relaxation, this tension, that all the tension comes from the claiming, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Well, the claiming is coming from the ego, the claiming is coming from uh you know, trying to grasp after something that's not here. Um, I think uh you were the ones who introduced me to non-duality, and I didn't even know what it was. And when you were describing it, I s it took me, I think maybe very recently to finally kind of get it, you know, what you were pointing at. Um, because this idea of um no-self, I kind of understood, you know, maybe intellectually, and I think over the years, um, and and you know, getting deeper into non-duality and understanding it more, uh, recognizing that um my my own ideas about myself are all just these stories that I've identified with, and none of them are uh who I really am. Yeah, so it's just been, I think over the years, just more and more a sense of clarity and freedom. And another thing that I learned from you, which was very important, was this uh the the notion of finishing off your thinking. That was also a big a big piece for me, and and realizing like uh where where there is still unfinished thinking going on and and then finishing it off.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Well, yeah, that's the biggest obstacle to good acting we found is the act, apart from a lack of knowledge, is the actor's own baggage that they're bringing to it because it infects every thought in the character's mind in all those unchecked subconscious thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

And I remember on the course that you had a bit of a breakthrough.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

I remember you reporting that that you something uh there was a bit of a shift, something had really clicked.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Yeah, and I have the actual email where I shared it with you, and uh I wrote, um, hi John. I awoke in the middle of the night with an insight that I believe finished off the thinking I described in my previous email. Basically, the insight was that I need to stay rooted in the truth that there's only God and there is only love, especially when I'm in an environment where there's fear, belief, and lack, etc. I need to stand for this truth and live my life as an expression of this truth. And I also realize that this is where my passion lies and that I can live this as an actor or anything else I find myself doing. Perhaps the fact that my life as an actor keeps bringing this stuff up for me is indicative that I'm in the right place doing the right thing. There is a something else that I was doing when I moved to LA. There was a seminar that I was taking that was being uh led by this man named Brett Coston. And I think his background was an Est and that kind of transformational uh stuff. And um, I had done this um course with him called Absolute Freedom, and one of the purposes of the course was to find out what your mission is, and uh also to find out what your I think path is the terminology he was using. And then uh he had said to me that your life is an expression of your relationship with God. So at that time when he said that, I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what God was really, or what my relationship with God was, but that set off years of trying to understand what that meant. And um similarly to my to my work in your class. In the beginning of my career, my ego was constantly like I dealt with depression a lot when I was younger. And it took me a long time to realize that my depression was linked to my uh self-image, it was linked to what I thought was uh either wrong with me or that something was missing, but it was always some story that was uh triggering my depression. And it was always like whatever room I was in, I was always the dumbest one in the room. I was always the the least of something in the room, and that's how I perceived myself a lot. So as an actor, like I always this all this stuff always got in the way and uh just prevented me from just being in the in the reality of the character. Um so I think over the years, uh as I started to kind of meditate and reflect on um these truths, the what I'd mentioned to you before, the one that I heard from I believe it's from the Bhagavad Gita, what is here now is everywhere, what is not here now is nowhere to be found. So the the truth that this is it. This is everything, everything is here. When I have this idea that something's missing, that there's some lack, like I don't have enough money, let's say, and I I start to feel like this sense of lack, you know, recognizing like even money, money is a story, time is a story, these are all stories that the mind tells itself, that the mind uh identifies with, and say, I have lack, I have something missing with me. But then when I think I've gotten more and more clear that there is no separate self, that that's just this thought that I've identified with. And more and more I think um letting go of all the stories, which constantly brings me back to just what's happening right now. It's always just what's happening right now. And I think as I've grown as an actor, it almost now feels kind of everything is more fluid where I'm able to go into the reality of the character without too much work, being able to believe in the circumstances of the character has become more fluid, more organic, because I recognize that if I'm empty, if there's no separate self here, then everyone else is empty as well. There's no one there. So, in the ultimate sense, no one's here and nothing's happening. All which also means that I am everybody, that that everyone that I that's in my consciousness is some reflection of me. So recognizing that every character that I can play, I can play, anybody can play any character when you recognize that you are everyone. Everyone is you. And it becomes uh easier to to play any character with that insight, with that realization.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

Yes. Well, it also in the Upanishads it says, if you can see all creatures in yourself, yourself in all creatures, you know no sorrow. Then it goes on to say, how can how can you be sorrowful knowing the unity of life?

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah, you know, when you think about what's going on in the world now, it the root of it is the idea that we're separate, that you're different than me. The root of all the wars that are going on, that's the root, that's the core of it.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Exactly. It's well, it the simple rule is that we have the words I am in Sanskrit, it comes from the Sanskrit ahom, uh, which is the name of the consciousness of the self is ahom I am, and that's enough. I am, in fact, you could say that that's the that's the truth, and that's the only established truth because everything else is subject to change. The only thing that remains constant is ahom is I am, but then we put something after the I am, and the I am comes, I am British, I am Asian, I am Jewish, I am Muslim. Um, do you see what I mean? And then that's where the where all the all the trouble starts. Uh, but if only we could, you know, en masse come back to the essential I am, then all those uh limiting barriers which exist between people would naturally break down.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yeah, and I think that's what the work is. The workness uh more importantly than anything we do out in the world, is what we're doing within, which is realizing or seeing that, like having that insight. It's one thing to know it intellectually, but it's another thing to really to get it. It's it's different, it's it's more energetic, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

It's it's disconnection, isn't it? Is the kind of the the real root of it. Like if I think it's very hard to suffer if you're connected. I think there's also a reason why like solitary confinement is one of the worst things you can do to a prisoner. We we do crave connection, we do crave empathy, and if you know start kind of cutting off those and putting barriers up against those, that's when suffering can thrive and can grow like in kind of a mold. I think it's disconnection is like the real root of that, isn't it? Realizing that you know, like that whole kind of non-duality is getting rid of disconnection. I think especially with like social media, we're we're more connected, I guess, than ever, but there's a real disconnection because we're not actually having proper conversations with people, you know. It's it's it's screens rather than you know real uh human contact.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

So like social media to me is like uh like driving and road rage. Like it's so easy to other somebody who just cut you off. Like, you fucking asshole, you know, and you get upset, and then you start to tell the story about whoever this person is, you know. Uh you like what a stupid idiot. They did, you know. Whereas if that same person was standing next to you in an elevator, you would never say any of the things that you just said when you're alone in the car, surrounded by all of this metal. So there's something about the anonymity of social media or the um the distance we feel that it's so much uh easier to to other to just feel because also it's about identity, you know, like you you're developing uh a brand or or whatever your identity is, it becomes a trap, it becomes uh something that is separating you from what you see as the other. So I think that uh yeah, it it feeds alienation.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Yeah, and as we've discussed this also on the podcast in the past, in what you're talking about, the the the individual there is that in modern psychiatry, they don't use the word ego so much anymore. They've got a much better term, which is narrative self. The narrative self is the individual, or what we what Freud would have called the individual ego. Uh, and I think it's a much better term because that's exactly what it is. It's a it's a story. And it's a story made out of a what is it really? What's its substance? It's a collection of memories stored as mental pictures, but those those pictures themselves um are subject to great distortion, you know, that the mind filters according to its own pathways, that whatever pathways we've cut with the mind, we perceive the incoming information through that pathway. So we it's just uh an echo chamber of more of the same. Um, but it's interesting you say that you're coming to the ad white teaching to non-duality, that you know, coming back to the oneness, how naturally these things all start to fall away, and how naturally things like prejudice and racism and that they become things of the past as people start to realize this. But is your feeling you were saying in the we were talking earlier on, just before we started the recording about this, you know, this the spiritual work in the world and these teachings all are becoming more known and they're becoming more available. In your experience from where you are out there on the east coast of of new uh in America, would you say that there's a shift taking place? As much as there's uh we've we've got the opposite in forms of you know that the the wars in Ukraine and Gaza and the environmental catastrophe and and all.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah, it's almost like you know, like uh there's this famous, I think, Zen painting of these two monks that are pulling this other monk and they're pulling him towards his enlightenment. And so there's this resist, you know, there's this resistance to waking up because it's really the death of the ego. So the ego, in its desire to survive, is going to do everything it can to survive. So I feel like the the human species, we're we're going through some kind of psychotic break right now, it seems, where the sense of separation is so intense right now, the sense of othering is so intense, and we're seeing all of these wars breaking out. I mean, it's it's really frightening. Um, but it all boils down to this one fundamental insight, which is that there's no separate person out there. It's all dream. It's all like I studied with Don Miguel Ruiz, he's um Toltec shaman, who uh he wrote the four agreements. And in the Toltec philosophy, they often talk about the dream of the planet. So all of these things can be considered dream of the planet. Um, the this collective dream. So we all carry the wars in our psyche. That's the interesting thing about like feng shui, for instance. Feng shui, like you know, like Marie Kondo, you know, like the joy of decluttering, for instance. When you de when you empty out your closet, everything that we own in the physical world has some sort of psychic energy and psychic weight. So when you clear out your closet, it's like you're clearing out some part of your brain or some part of your psyche, and then you're creating space. So it seems like we're uh now collectively, uh the ego is so intense right now. It's like the the like in Ecotole's words, uh, the pain body, the collective pain body is raging right now. The the sense of separation is so intense right now, and it's like our our collective pain body is so intense, and there's so much suffering and so much othering going on right now. And the work really is for each of us to recognize that there's no separate being out there, that it's all illusory, it's all it's all a dream. And uh when we wake up to the reality that there's no self, when we have that insight, then we recognize that this is all this is it. Everything else is everything else is thinking, story, dream.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

Yeah. And and just to clarify what that you mean by no that even though you're saying there's there's no self, you mean like that really the individual self only has a relative existence, but there is one self.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Yeah, like uh Tiknad Han has this, uh he he does these gathas, he he teaches gathas, which are these short little phrases. Um there's one that he he teaches when you're bowing at an altar with the Buddha, the one who bows and the one who's bowed to are both by nature empty. So when you say recite that Gatha as you're bowing, you're not saying, Oh, I'm bowing to the Buddha who's this great figure who's something like I aspire to. You're recognizing that the Buddha and you are that you're the same, that you are basically connecting to your own Buddha nature. It's the realization that you are it.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Exactly. It's the same as in giving thanks. When you when we give thanks, we you know, people uh are learning that you know to give thanks and praise, it changes the psychology, it changes everything. Um, putting the attention on that which you have. So you you might say, thank you to the universe or or thank you to God, but essentially it's like, well, that that's very there's the duality again. There's me and the universe, there's me and God, there's me and their separateness. So what I learned to say was um uh quietly to acknowledge, thank you, Lord, who am my own real self.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Exactly. Now tell me if this is my understanding of the Bhagavad Gita, the story of Krishna and um uh the warrior Arjuna. So he's about to go to war with his relatives, right? His uncles or whatever. And in this moment, right before this war is supposed to happen, Krishna bestows this spiritual teaching to Arjuna right before he's supposed to go and try to kill his relatives that he doesn't want to do. And tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, that Krishna's teaching is you must commit, you must do what's right, you must stand for the the truth. In essence, you must go into battle, but at the same time recognize that you are eternal. Recognize that no one dies. There's no birth and no death. That you hold on to this truth while at the same time going into battle. So you're not going into battle from a place of hatred, you're going to battle because it's the play of it's the Leela, the play of life, the play of form. To commit to this play of form, but at the same time knowing it's all just a dream.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

That's exactly it. He he says that which is has always been, and that which is not uh will never be, or that which is will never cease to be, and that which is not will never be. To the wise, these truths are self-evident. And so he's saying, really, there is no birth and death, they're all just happening on a certain level. On the causal realm, on the spiritual realm, at the depth of the ocean, there's no change, that this is just the play of the waves. However, he says, even though you know none of none of it's real, you you're a warrior, so get in there and play your part as a warrior fully.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

That's right. So it's so much like acting, right? Acting you just completely go into the story, but you don't go home as the character. I mean, you you take the costume off, you go home, you get a burger, and then you watch uh some Netflix or whatever you're doing. You know what I mean? Like you don't hold on to the character. So, in the same way, we uh we need to engage in the world, but at the same time uh recognize that this other this other deeper truth, that um all there is is this this uh this unconditional love.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Uh absolutely the the first step is is really the practice of I am not this. So I am not this, I am not this body, I am not this mind, I'm not these changing emotions, I'm not this circumstance, I'm not this financial position, I'm not this drama taking place in the world, uh, I'm not this until you arrive at really just that which observes the self, the art one. Then from having realized that you know it's all a play and you're you're really the witness of the play, then it's like, right, let's roll our sleeves up, let's get in there and play the part right. Let's do a good job and play the part nicely. You know, whether that part is um, you know, being an actor in a film playing a part, you know, being in a play within the play, or whether that part is playing the part of father or brother or teacher or customer or audience member. It's just really all we're required to do is just this is the art of living, is to play the part nicely. But first of all, we need to become unattached from the part and realize that none of it is real, that only the Atman, only the self is real.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

And to me, that's the highest expression of life or the highest expression of acting or anything is to. I mean, I always had this idea when I was very young, when I started learning about Zen in high school, this idea of the seeker going to the mountain to like Buddha, you know, essentially to become awakened, to become enlightened, and then coming back into the world to basically do whatever you do, but from this heightened, enlightened place. So that kind of metaphor has always stayed with me because when we're operating at the highest vibration that we can, then our actions will be coming from a place of wisdom, from a place of compassion, from a place of love, from a place of knowing that there's no separate being, that you are your brother, you are your sister, you know, that you are everyone that is in your world. So when you're coming from that insight, your actions and your thinking and your perception are very different than you're when you're coming from the egoic place where you feel lack, where you feel like I don't have enough, where you feel like someone's better or worse than you, like all of the hierarchies that that we live within, you know.

SPEAKER_04 59:05

Yeah, that's that's incredibly nourishing. The the Shankracharya says that um when we take all of this ever-changing nature to be true, and we think the body and mind alone to be the self, and we become involved in the movements of nature, you know, we take the play to be real. He says, This is called ignorance. Then he says, in ignorance, we need discrimination, meaning the mind we need to see what's true and what's not true. And uh we need to establish a proper and true relationship with it, the world, you know, everything that we can observe. The ultimate relation, he says, is no relation at all. Because you you have to have two to have a relationship. So if it's all one, there's no relationship, there's just uh I, there's just the self. And then he says, in this observation, the practice of just being the witness and observing, our whole system, this whole system of living, of life, you know, of you know the natural course of human life, comes into accord with its true nature of truth, consciousness, and bliss. That the nature of the self is truth, consciousness, and bliss. And through the act of um separating the observed from the observer, you know, I am not this, we come back to that self that isn't the story, that is just pure consciousness, and the whole system, the whole of life proceeds nicely, you know. The the relationships in the play become gentle and kind, if you realize that. Or the the the competition is gone, that the the the natural love of seeing uh oneself in the other, you know, realizing that the light that lights up another person's eyes is actually our own consciousness, uh, that it's all one. And it it just makes a much better situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

The most challenging thing to under, maybe even understanding is not the right word, but this idea that no one wakes up, no one gets enlightened, like that particular insight is the most challenging for the mind because the reason why we say not to instead of one oneness because it's it's you can't know what we're pointing at. It's not knowable, it's beyond knowing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:37

It's it's um it when it is the knower.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Yes, but there's nobody knowing anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

So well, there's no no it's in the words, isn't it? There's no body.

unknown 1:01:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:48

I think it's realizing that kind of underlying love that's holding us all, like realizing that self-that's the most important part, I think, especially from my experience. I feel like you know, when I was studying spiritual psychology back now, it was a bit of a crossroads, like discarding a lot of the religion I had in the past and kind of coming to terms with what the things I believed and truly thought. And because it it can be hard to cut yourself off from the stuff that you've known for years and years, and you know, especially if it's you know if it's just the ego, the ego and the stories we tell ourselves, we get so attached to them that it's very hard to throw them away. It can be a very scary experience, that kind of sense of loss of self. But I think that was the key for me was realizing it's not just a kind of a vast space that there is, like there's there's underlying love there that something there is actually a supportive net. It's like once you're gonna get rid of all that, you can relax into what life truly is. The key, I think, is realizing you are supported by all that that love and that sense of self oneness.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

There's a lot of kind of unlearning that we need to do, I think, on this journey, because we've been um there's so much propaganda and indoctrination and domestication in just growing up in the world and whatever culture you're in. There's some sort of false narrative that we're with that we're taught to believe. So I think part of the work is is um dismantling. It's like it's like um, you know, what you you know, when you get out of a cult, the the deprogramming that's required just to be able to see reality clearly again. You know.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:19

Yeah, but you know, you need good company for that.

unknown 1:03:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

You need the support, you need the good company because what you know the the influences of the world, as you say, are such as to make you feel weak, you know, and make you feel powerless. And that that in turn makes people feed on rubbish that makes them even more weak and powerless.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

Um but through the you know, in the spiritual teachings I've studied, they very much point towards the good company. It's working with it with a group of like-minded people. Remind because of the you know, the world is full of forgetting, it's working with a group with groups, and that's very much with the spiritual psychology of acting. We have with all the people that are doing the courses around the world. We come on, we just had it on Monday night, it was wonderful. We come on together as a group and we do a class together, and they ask any questions, and then I start looking at their work, and even though you know you you've got but people literally, you know, different places around the world, different actors around the world, there's a great feeling of unity amongst the students because it all everyone's there for the same purpose. They all want to learn, they all love acting, they all want to sort of develop their sort of spiritual and psychological faculties, and uh that there's an amazing connection, even though they're they're all these miles away from each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:49

So it's the good company, really. It's finding the good company, and and and the class I offer really uh looks to provide that because it's such an important part of it, because it's so easy to forget. It's so easy to forget.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's uh like in Buddhism, that's why the three jewels is the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. You know, the Sangha is the community that you know supports your practice, supports your awakening.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

Yes, yes, it's uh sadhana and satsanga is sadhana is spiritual practice. That's the meditation and you know, uh devotion and putting your attention on what's in front of you and remembering to claim nothing in joy, uh, remembering to see the self in others, etc. And then the the company, they're sort of coming together and um enjoying the bliss of the self together, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Exactly. I mean, it's funny because I listen to some of these non-duality people on YouTube, I was telling you, um, like Tony Parsons or uh Jim Newman or these guys, and and they're all saying the same thing. I mean, this kind of uncompromising non duality message. So when you listen to it just like in terms of the words you're using, it's essentially the same. But I find myself hearing it like music. Like I know the words and I understand it, but because it's energetic, you know, what they're pointing out really ultimately is not it's not an intellectual thing. It's it's an energy thing. And so I find uh a sense of comfort just kind of listening to what they're saying. And not, you know, I mean, and then I make distinctions like certain people are in my mind, like they're they're clearer or they're more concise than some other people that are a little bit more giving maybe too many concessions to the separate self because the uncompromising message of non-duality is really there's nothing in it for the individual. There's nothing practical for the individual, there's nothing there to make the individual feel better. It's basically pointing to this idea of a separate self. It's completely illusory, does not exist. And it's hard if you're not familiar with this message, it's very it doesn't make any sense. You can't make any sense of it. It's it almost sounds absurd.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:16

Well, that's that's why you need the practice and experience. You know, there that there's things that you can put into practice, uh, like reflection. Reflect there are certain statements in the Sanskrit language which which are very powerful, and you repeat these sounds and they go into the heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:42

So I just um wanted to uh share this note that I have from your class. Uh that and I think this was the beginning of the class that you introduced it. It's this uh Buddha parable um where this guy is running away from this tiger and he is at a cliff, and then he he basically jumps off the cliff and holds onto a vine, and he's about to fall off. And so there's a tiger here on the cliff, and then there's a tiger down below, and uh he's hanging onto this vine, and there is a black mouse and a white mouse gnawing away at the vine, and uh they represent the pair of opposites, uh they also represent fear and desire, and um there's a strawberry which represents the present moment, and he eats the strawberry, and basically it's like, oh, this is this is delicious, and that's the parable, which is a great parable for acting. You know, the acting is really just about zeroing in on the present what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

Yes, he's got that first tiger. He's walking across a field, and a tiger chases him, and he swings over the edge of a precipice, hold takes hold of the vine, and then there's another tiger waiting below. And they're they're the past and the future, those two tigers.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

You can maybe say, like, it's like I want the job. Like one of the tigers is like, I want to get this this job, this acting job. And then the tiger down below is like, uh, you know, what if I don't get the job? I'm gonna fail. You know, like all the noise, all the the the narratives that we have as actors, you know, going into uh in either an audition or a performance, uh, all of the noise.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

Well, you could say one is the past baggage, and the other one is the attachment to the future, is the claiming on the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:31

Right, the the desire, the grasping after something.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:34

Well, that exactly. And then he he he notices a luscious strawberry growing near him, and holding the vine in one hand, he plucks the strawberry in the other. How sweet it tasted. Is all that the Buddha said, is how sweet it tasted. And that's the present moment is tasting the strawberries. So I I always give a little homework after that to the students is like, don't forget to taste the strawberries, you know, in the coming week, eat the strawberries, come into the present.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:07

Uh yeah, that's a beautiful little story.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Well, thank you so much for your time, Stephen. It's been a really amazing episode. Great. Really, really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

Thank you so much for having me. The idea of uh spirituality and acting, like that I I don't know anybody else who's doing the kind of thing that you're doing, John, teaching this uh the spiritual psychology of acting. So it's uh really wonderful what you do.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:30

Yeah, well, I'm you know, I'm I'm I'm carrying whole carrying the flag with for Stanislavsky, really. Uh, you know, and and of course, you know, I only found out a few years ago that Stanislavsky himself, his initial inspiration was a book about yoga, Hata yoga. It was postures and breathing exercises. But of course, he didn't have access to the same knowledge that I've been lucky enough to have access to. You know, the knowledge of the Himalayas wasn't quite as ripe for someone in Russia at the time. Um, but I really believe that you know that that this is what Stanislavski was looking for ultimately was the spiritual psychology of acting.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Yeah. He'd probably be doing something similar today if he was still around, yeah. I think that's the I guess that's the thing, isn't it? We always say about this podcast is that we've got the three strands of acting, spirituality, and psychology. It's forever fascinating because there's always topics, especially all in recent research, there's there's constantly things we're we're finding out about the brain or breakthroughs, but then also back to ancient wisdom and philosophy. There's always something to be found, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:34

But yeah, I think just to close then, Stephen, do you have any advice for any actors trying to make it in the industry today? You've had you know 30, 40 years of experience. So what would what would be your advice to actors today?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

Well, um, I think a lot of it is uh determination and perseverance. Um, because I I actually went through a period where I was wanting to get out and quit. And um actually it was my wife uh who convinced me to just stick with it, and I kind of got pulled back in. So there's so many challenges, you know, everybody knows like this is not an easy, easy business, and it's not an easy uh career. A lot of it is the kind of work that you're doing, John, and I uh would highly recommend any actor to to get in touch with you and uh and to take your class and to listen to what you're teaching because it really set uh me on this journey of going deeper and deeper into understanding uh these concepts that you you bring up and uh most notably non-duality and and understanding the ego and understanding all the the ways that we stand in our own way. And um I I think uh for me, uh a lot of what was uh standing in my way as a as an actor and as being the best actor I could be was my my own internal noise, you know, all the egoic attachments and uh low self-esteem and all of the things that uh a lot of people, a lot of young people, especially in the age of social media, um struggle with is uh the self-image that stands in our way, uh, the self-image that that makes us think we're this or that, uh, when we begin to allow ourselves to see through the illusory nature of the separate self and begin to release the shackles that prevent us from being free, which are all these psychological burdens that we carry around, these ideas of who we are. Um, when we begin to see through that, then not only are we more free to express ourselves as actors, but as human beings, our life opens up and we become freer and freer, and more of our own internal talents become more accessible to us and things happen more easily. So it's been a long journey for me, but I think uh because of your teaching and because of teachings like this, people can shave off years and years of suffering to uh, you know, to get into this place.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

Oh, that's that's really inspiring to see, and that's that's really inspiring to hear from someone who has had such a a rich and varied uh career as an actor and done you know work with some fantastic directors that have recognized your talents and wanted you to be part of their production. So so something must be working, you know. So it's and I as I and I've said to you before that I've had students that have come and done my course, and I asked them what we know why you're here, and they're like, you know, because my my acting role model, Stephen Park, talks about your course. So yeah, why not? That's that's good. You're you're an inspiration, Stephen.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

Oh, thank you. Thank you. You as well. You as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

Thank you. No, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

No, thank you. How many different ways can we say that?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:09

Thank you for listening to the Spiritual Psychology of Acting podcast. And just one more thank you again to Steven for his time and generosity. Please join us again next week when we'll be discussing character archetypes in mythology. But until then, be excellent to each other and have a great week.