The Psychology of Human Relationships: An Introduction to Transactional Analysis

This week, we are kicking off a special four part mini-series diving into the world of Transactional Analysis – a form of social psychology that explores the dynamics of human interactions and those hidden parts of ourselves that often dictate how we behave in life.

For this mini-series, we drafted in an expert to help guide us through these next few weeks. Sarah Lowes is a coach and facilitator. She uses Transactional Analysis in her work to empower people and help them connect honestly with themselves. She is also one of the hosts of the Transactional Analysis Podcast (formerly known as 3 People in Your Head).

This episode serves as a good introduction to the concepts and terms used in Transactional Analysis so if you’re completely new to it all, don’t worry, we cover all the basics that you need to know – what it is, how it works, and why it’s an absolute game-changer for anyone interested in achieving a deeper self-awareness and personal growth.


Transactional Analysis Podcast (TAP):
https://open.spotify.com/show/19HAvWJzTsjMIMzAmMtedd

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An Awakened State production.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

One of the things we talk a lot of in transactional analysis is about what we invite in other people. You know, behavior breeds behaviour. And if I am caught in a way of viewing the world where I'm not okay but everybody else is, in order to reinforce my view of the world, I will look to be in relationship with people who believe that they're okay and I'm not. Because it reaffirms what I think and feel about myself. And sometimes for people, it can therefore be quite challenging because it, you know, it's going to really disrupt how they've looked at their life. And hopefully, what it also will do is invite them into a healthier way of being and begin to help people to broaden their window on the world and think actually there is another way of looking at this that actually might make life a happier experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

This week, we are kicking off a special four-part miniseries diving into the world of transactional analysis. A form of social psychology that explores the dynamics of human interactions and those hidden parts of ourselves that often dictate how we behave in life. For this miniseries, we drafted in an expert to help guide us through these next few weeks. Sarah Lowe's is a coach and facilitator. She uses transactional analysis in her work to empower people and help them connect honestly with themselves. She is also one of the hosts of the Transactional Analysis Podcast, formerly known as Three People in Your Head. This episode serves as a really good introduction to the concepts and terms used in transactional analysis. So if you're completely new to it all, don't worry, we cover all the basics that you need to know. What it is, how it works, and why it's an absolute game changer for anyone interested in achieving a deeper self-awareness and personal growth. If you are already familiar with transactional analysis to some degree, then this is an excellent refresher and there'll be plenty of interesting stuff to take away from the episode. So without any other further ado, here is our conversation. So we're very pleased to welcome to the podcast, Sarah Lois. Thank you so much for joining us today. Sarah, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

I'm doing really well. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah, very exciting topic we're going to be covering today.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

How are you today, John? I'm also very excited about this episode, Jordan. As you know, in the spiritual psychology of acting, we make reference to certain elements of transaction analysis. And uh I was very influenced by the work of Eric Byrne, uh, particularly the games that people play and what you say after you say hello, and sex in human loving, and the wonderful uh uh layman's guide to psychiatry and psychoanalysis were really influential. There's some of the terminology that's evolved in the course has come is come out of that. So, you know, this is something that um that I've I've really wanted to explore. It's something we've been talking about for ages, isn't it, Jordan? Is let's do and do something on transaction analysis. So it's really great to have you here, Sarah.

SPEAKER_05 3:37

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Have an expert, yes. Yeah, so someone actually knows what they're talking about on the subject.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Well, we'll see how we go.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

So, Sarah, just a bit a little bit of context then, because you have you came from an an acting background initially, didn't you? And then, so how did you first then get into transactional analysis after initial acting stuff?

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yeah, so I mean, my original ambition in life, I decided when I was 10 years old I was going to become a rich and famous actress and have an Oscar by the time I was 30, which um those of you who can see me will be able to attest that I'm just fractionally behind schedule on that particular goal. And um I I I did go to drama school after university, and I was I was a good actress, a good stage actress, but absolutely terrible at the career of acting um in terms of the sort of the self-promotion and all of that sort of stuff, and got the opportunity. I came into a bit of money when I was in my late 20s unexpectedly, and got the opportunity to get a flat and a mortgage, and sort of thenfore needed a regular income. And about the same time, in that I was doing a temp job, um uh my boss discovered that I was quite good at delivering training programs and training new starters. And I discovered that there was a lot of transferable skills um between acting and delivering training programs. And I used to joke with people that, you know, if I positioned myself right in front of the projector, because we still use projectors in training when I was first starting, you know, I could still get the spotlight on me and all that sort of stuff. Um, but um, I I feel like I started at that point. I I come from a family where we have always been fascinated by people and characters and analysing stuff. You know, my brother-in-law would say we could analyze the hind legs of a donkey, and sometimes things just are the way they are. Um, and I suppose in the early part of my life with my ambition, I indulge that fascination with uh character by playing different characters. And what I've done more latterly in my career, whilst I've needed to be able to regularly pay my bills, is indulge that fascination by being with a variety of different people. And I work primarily now, either facilitating training programs, often working with leadership populations in organizations, or working with people one-to-one as a coach. So I spend my time with other characters, and it's my sort of uh mission, if you like, in the work I do is around authenticity, around supporting people to figure out what does it mean to be authentically themselves in the work environment. And about to come back to the point of your question, Jordan, about um seven years ago, eight years ago, um I started co-facilitating on a leadership program where a colleague of mine, it was a it was a four-day residential program, and on the morning of day three, the um participants would be introduced to the functional ego states model. And uh I watched uh Brian deliver that session, that morning session, probably about 50, 60 times over the course of a couple of years. And two things really struck me about it. Um one was that every time he ran it, I watched these sort of light bulbs go on above people's heads about why sometimes they find themselves getting into difficult, dysfunctionable, dysfunctional, if I could say it, relationship patterns with people who they were leading, or particularly as they stepped into leadership, why there were certain aspects of being a leader that they were finding uncomfortable. And I also never got bored of hearing the introduction myself. I mean, I I knew that session so well, I would tell, I would say to them, Oh, you didn't tell that joke today. Well, you missed out that story that you usually tell about the parent. Um but every time I would get something slightly different from it because of maybe different things that were going on in my life. And I think, oh yeah, that's why I got into my knickers in a twist in that conversation with my mum the other week, or that's why I'm struggling with that project or with that professional relationship. So it just struck me as um, particularly in the work that I do, which is about supporting people to understand themselves, understand their relationships, and where things aren't working for them at the moment, how to make different choices. It felt like a really important and potent, you know, modality to understand more. So I went and did formal training and fast forward seven or eight years later, I'm now a certified transactional analyst. I I always rather cheekily want to say certifiable transactional analyst, but I think that's just how you feel as you come towards the end of the training. Um, but I'm a certified transactional analyst in the educational field of TA, which is about the use of these models in environments where learning takes place.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Right, yeah. And so then for for listeners then who I'm guessing a lot of will never even heard of transactional analysis, what exactly is it and what are the ego states that you you mentioned there?

SPEAKER_03 8:41

So transactional analysis is a form of social psychology. Um, it's a means of looking at how we communicate with other people and then how that affects the relationships that we subsequently develop. And it's also a sort of modality that looks at child development because how we communicate as grown-ups is rooted in how we grew and developed as children. Um, and just to make reference to the fact I said I'm a um an educational transactional analyst, there are four fields of TA these days. It was originally Eric Byrne, who developed it in the particularly in the 1950s and 60s in the States, developed it as a quite a radical of its time form of psychotherapy, working very differently from all sort of the medical model of psychiatry, where an all-powerful, all-knowing doctor would diagnose your problem and tell you what you needed to do. Eric Byrne was really wanting to move away from that and bear in mind that this is developing in the 1960s in the States when flower power is very much, you know, the rage. He's wanting to sort of follow that flower power initiative about supporting the individual to sort of understand themselves. Um, so so he developed it originally as a form of psychotherapy. The four fields of TA now are psychotherapy, there's a counseling field as well, there's the educational field, uh, which I have a master's level qualification in, and then there's also an organizational field, which is about the application of these models in more sort of systemic um um environments and all of the TA models can be used across all four of those different fields of TA. The ego states model um an ego state is a set of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that Byrne felt that we step into as we go about the business of being a human being. And there are three ego states, so there are three of these particular sets of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that at points as we go about you know living our lives, we can step into. Um, the first of those ego states is called the child ego state. And these are uh sets of thoughts and feelings and behaviors that we step into when we are um, if you like, uh being our natural self when we are leaning into behaviors and experiences that we have had since we were children. So there's two sides, if you like, to the um child ego state. One side is called the free child. So that is me being my natural self, that is me leaning into thoughts and feelings and behaviors that have been with me since I was a young child. And then we have on the other side of the child ego state what's referred to as the adapted child, which develops as we learn pretty quickly as kids that in order to get on around here, I need to be in relationship with other people in order to get my needs met. I need other people to support me and to be prepared to work with me. And I need to sort of socialize into society, if you like. And that's that's what the sort of sets of thoughts and feelings, behaviors that we step into when we're operating from the adapted child are those behaviours that are about building relationships with other people.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

And would it be right to say that I guess the free child is, I guess, a role model for creativity? It's where we get our flow state and we get our kind of our play, a sense of play. And then the adapted child would be more how we toe the line, how we kind of fall in line, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, and the adaptive child is the part of us that listens to other people and is able to say to them, okay, I hear these are your wants and needs, these are also my wants and needs. So how do we work together in order to get both of both of our needs met? So it's sort of it's about working with others in, you know, when it's when we are using these behaviors effectively, it's about working with each other, uh, with others to get everybody's needs met. It's not about just theirs or just mine, but how do we do that collaboratively?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Right. So with the free the free child would be your your your true self.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Yes, I suppose it's in one sense, it's it's not your unsocialized self. It's not saying that by by the very nature the free child is antisocial, but it it is absolutely you know, um your key characteristics and personality sort of traits that have been with you since you were very young, you know, and and those traits can be ones that can still serve us really well as adults. You know, I I often say to people, if there are kicking around somewhere gathering dust, you know, old camcorder recordings of me when I was relatively young. And um, if you were to watch those, um, I'd be absolutely front and center of those videos, you know, dancing about, making a joke, whereas my sister would be a blur in the background as she did her best to dive out of shot in an in a nanosecond. You know, I've always been quite comfortable being in front of other people. Now, as a as a grown-up woman, hopefully it comes across in a slightly less egotistical fashion than it did when I was 10. But those same behaviors still serve me very well today when I'm delivering training. It means I'm quite comfortable to be the person stood at the front of the room who people are listening to and engaging with and taking responsibility for facilitating that process.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

So I think it's the obvious question is so why why were you the one who was able to take front and center of the stage and your your sister wanted to hide? Is that from birth or is that is that learned behavior? Is that um is that genetic? Is that karmic? Is that what what is it that makes that difference?

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Well, I'd I say my sister and I are um uh different personality types, which is slight which is, you know, I think slightly different in one sense to what we're talking about with these sort of ego states. This is we're talking about sort of what is demonstrated in behavior. There will, I mean, it there's always going to be a combination of nature and nurture. The fact that I think some people might relate this to birth order. I am the second child, I'm the younger sibling. So when when my parents had me, they'd already done this once and figured out, you know, how to do parenting. And so were probably slightly more relaxed with me when I was little and I was growing up than they were with my sister, who was their firstborn, when they were sort of, you know, figuring out, oh my God, you know, how do we do this and how do we keep her safe? And in the way that they raised her when they were raising her, there was probably more anxiety in everybody's system, which may well have meant that my sister is slightly more cautious. But by the time that I came along, everybody was a bit more relaxed and I was able just to sort of, you know, I was the center of attention because I was the younger kid and everybody was sort of looking after me. So, you know, um, I I think there's probably an element of of both, partly personality, partly how I was um supported and encouraged as I was growing up.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Right. And with some probably sort of, you know, uh genetic predisposition to certain behaviors and actions. And and is there um a like a conditioned child as well? Do you see what I mean? Is there like a child? So so that there's the free child, and that's their their sort of natural impulses, and then I could see the adapted child is almost like has an element of the adult that they could they have to be able to negotiate with the world and deal deal with the world and have their needs met in the world. Is and I but I was thinking then is there is there a type of child that is just you're a good boy, you're a naughty boy, that they they just live not within their own impulses at all, yeah, just what's been impressed upon them by their parents.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

I'm thinking of Rod and Todd in The Simpsons, you know, Rod and Todd, a bit like that, you know?

SPEAKER_03 16:58

So so I mean, uh so all of the ego states, there's um the parent and the adult, the the two that we've not mentioned yet, I would say um certainly with the parent and the child, they can be very useful behaviors to still step into today. And also us being human, we can also step into them in ways that are not so helpful. You know, we can shoot ourselves in the foot or we can behave in ways that are less resourceful whilst we're operating out of those ego states. And I would say what we would refer to as the negatives of the adapted child ego state is where you might see that more sort of conditioned behavior. What we would talk if if you think about the adapted child is focusing on relationship, building relationship with others. And if somebody finds themselves in a situation where the relationship that they're you know engaging in in that moment, whether it's a personal one or a professional one, suddenly seems to be at risk, somebody's got cross or somebody's upset, somebody's not happy. What that tends to do in us in humans is it triggers an anxiety response. It's like, oh my God, the relationship's at risk, which can then um we find uh trigger one of two reactions in people, is people either go, which I think it would be the more conditioned route, become really compliant and become really submissive and just do what the do what they're told, do anything they can to please the other person and try and get the relationship back on track. So they'll be try to be really pr pleasing and just do as they're told and dot the I's and cross the T's and and sacrifice maybe their own need, their own legitimate need, in order just to try and make things safe. Or people might go to the other end of the extreme and become really rebellious. So that some people refer to the uh rebellious child, the known as RC, which is both the initial of rebellious child, but you would probably see some quite RC behavior on this person because you know they're sticking two fingers up to what to what's going on, they're digging their heels in, they're refusing to get on board. So it's a it's it's kind of like a fight or flight response in those in those moments. So I would say that sort of conditioning, particularly if people only operate out of their adapted child ego state, you know, that's when that conditioning can can come in, that they just do what other people need in order to keep people happy, rather than actually stepping into the free child and remembering to voice their wants and their needs and and what's important for them in this moment.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Right. And I guess as well, the the the moments in like high high states, kind of in this stress and anxiety, that's probably where you get the most trouble from these ego states, right? It's that the response to it is usually, I guess with a child it would be like emotional outbursts and throwing tantrums and the kind of the behaviors we do associate with children.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Yes, yes. So I I always very keen to say to people when you're operating out of your ego state, that doesn't mean that you're being child-ish.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

It means that you're leaning into behaviors that have been with you since you were young that are uh rooted in your previous experiences, some of which might date back to childhood, some of which might be you know more recent history. Um, but they you're you're stepping into making use of thoughts and feelings and behaviors that may well have served you very well. And sometimes we can step into those behaviors which are less resourceful. And the less resourceful side of the free child is the one that will throw a temper tantrum. I was to say, if somebody gets caught resolutely in the negatives of the free child, um, you probably get quite a good idea of how they threw a temper tantrum when they were two or three years old. You know, this is when somebody may well be described as behaving in a way that is childish, that's inappropriate in the here and now reality, where they seem to be being quite selfish or quite inconsiderate of other people. It's sort of, you know, the toys are coming out of the pram, they just want their own way. Um, and they're not prepared to sort of listen to reason or to think about how their behavior might be impacting anybody else. It's all about me. You know, that's what that's the sort of sense that you get when somebody stepped into that less resourceful part of the free child ego state.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, and there's that wonderful quality that you you find in wise or mature adults that they have a kind of childlike quality. Yes, yes, not childish, they're not throwing tantrums and and they're they're you know they're they're in touch with reality, they're not superimposing over reality, but it brings about as the I suppose as they let go of the certain attachments and ideas, they return to their native childlike self.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

But just wants and what does a child want? The child wants to play, wants to make make friends, wants to enjoy, wants to discover nature, is fascinated by the world.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Absolutely. There's so much wonderful, you know, you know, free child at its best is about curiosity, creativity, you know, um ingenuity, trying things differently. And so much of that, those qualities serve us really well when we are in the grown-up phase of our life. And I think one of the challenges is that sometimes, you know, society educates that out of us, that I've got now got to be this very serious, grown-up, responsible person. There's um uh a notion in TA that we talk of of physis, which is like our ultimate energy, the thing that drives us. And and in in ego state terms, that comes from the from the child, from the free child ego state, that it's sort of who we fundamentally are, is that energy is able to come through us and drive all of the interactions that that we have. Some of Byrne's early work was um, he had a fascination with intuition, um, which came out of the fact that during the Second World War, he was working in the American Army Corps as a psychiatrist. And it was his job to assess the new recruits who were coming through and whether or not they were going to be um capable to do the task that they were being recruited for. And he was given about two minutes to make that assessment for each each of these young men coming through the door, and it piqued in Byrne a lifelong interest in intuition because he was he knew he wasn't really paying that much attention to the literal meaning of the words they were using in response to his questions. So he became very curious about well, what is it then that I am picking up on? And and his his writing on intuition is really the origins of of where the ego state model then then comes from in the next decade. And he rooted intuition in the child ego state in that ability to be curious about what's going on, and and to then once you've got a you know, your curiosity has identified some data, you then use the adult ego state, which is about the here and you know, the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors we step into when we are resolutely focused on the here and the now, to use that adult ego state to provide a sort of logical framework to what your intuition has started to pick up on. So, you know, there's some really important, certainly I believe, some very important qualities to the child ego state. And I would also say from my own experience, you know, of being in rehearsal rooms, there's a lot of child ego state in the rehearsal process. You know, when you're trying to get, when you are literally, as we do as children, you know, we learn through storytales, we learn through dress-up as kids, we learn what it means to be a man or a woman or a nurse or a doctor or a, you know, a witch or a wizard by literally trying on outfits for size. And I think there's a real parallel with what happens in the rehearsal room, because you are literally starting to try on these characters for size and to play about, given this production and the angle we're taking on this play, you know, what's this character going to look like and feel like? And you need that element of creativity and play.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah, well, also as a writer, you would need that as well, wouldn't you? Absolutely. You could say, you know, following on from that, that you know, it it's part of the duty of a creative artist to maintain the free child and to have a connection with the free child. We hear quite a lot in the new age uh talk about one's inner child, yeah. Um, which would be the same thing, wouldn't it? But I suppose this is just looking at those different different aspects of the you know, the adaptive child and the free child and the rebellious child. Yeah. Um, I suppose that it's just categorizing them in in more detail. But it's like really it's that, you know, as a writer, you're dreaming.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Uh you're dreaming these scenarios, and uh, as an actor, you're dreaming the characters in your life. And you so you and that in acting, it's called we're called players. And it's called a play, you know, and that's what children want to do, want to play.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And and through play, we learn. Through play, we learn what it is to be human. It's why, as grown-ups, we still, even if we're not on the stage, we we like to go and see theatre or we watch movies because actually we learn about our own lives. You cannot watch something without thinking, oh my god, how would I cope in that situation? So it's almost like through witnessing a production, we are continuing to try on different aspects of life for size and sort of reflecting on our own humanity. I think the other thing that I would say about the free child, because I think you're alluding it to there, it's so important for writers and you know, performers. I would often say to people, free child in particular is the seat of self-care. It's how we, you know, we get energy into our system by being able to get our own needs met so that we've then got enough energy in the tank, if you like, to be there for other people. And I work, you know, a lot with leaders. And I'm often saying to them, how much time do you spend investing in yourself, making sure that your wants and needs met, as opposed to as a leader? And leaders will often spend a lot of time um operating out of the parent ego state instinctively, because the parent ego state are the sort of sets of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that we step into when we are in charge in some way, shape, or form. Um, you know, so we that leaders can spend a lot of time giving energy out, making sure everybody else is okay, but they often compromise the time for themselves, the time for their own learning and reflection, the time for them to go running at the end of the day if that's how they let off steam. So, you know, I think the free child ego state is very important for everyone, particularly to protect against things like burnout, to make sure, you know, there's there's something for me in the system. It's not just me being there for everybody else. That in a lot of plays, you know, characters get to burnout because actually they're not looking after their own free child ego state.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

But and that's where the life is, isn't it? That it having a life, you know, is is being in connection with that. That's where life is is fun and enjoyable. If you're always stuck in the adult or the or or God forbid, you're always stuck in the parent ego state, it's not much of a full experience of life, is it?

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Well, I mean, technically, if you look at the sort of the way the um uh particularly the functional ego state model is drawn, which is looking about how we behave, there are perceived to be negative aspects to the parent and the child, positive aspects to the parent and the child, and the adult is seen as all positive. And I I would argue if you ever meet and work with somebody who only ever operates out of the adult ego state, it's like communicating with a robot. Because, you know, the adult ego state is all about here and now reality, what's going on around me, how do other people seem to be responding, you know, accounting for what's going on and then problem solving and thinking about okay, how do how do we resolve this situation? And there's a lot that's really important and really useful in that. We say it's very present-centered, um it's not governed by past behaviors or other things that have happened to us, it's just sort of responding naturally in the here and now environment, and that can be very useful. But I would also argue that there's a lot of the flavor of our own personalities that comes from the parent and the child ego state, and that that brings the sort of sense of who we are. So I think um a lot of people these days, and I was thinking it when you mentioned something earlier, John, um, in the TA world would talk about not simply the adult, but the integrating adult. And what they mean by that is that we operate out of the adult ego state and integrating what is useful to us, what's positive, from the parent and child ego states. And one of the analogies that I like to use um is a netball analogy. Um, I I don't know how much you gentlemen played netball when you were growing up, but in case you don't know, um, when you are playing netball, um, there one of the rules is if you are holding the ball, you can only move one foot, but you can pivot with the other foot whilst you figure out in which direction you're gonna throw the ball. So if you stick with my metaphor, if we think of the ball as a sort of ball of communication moving forward, what I like to think about in terms of my use of the ego states is I like to keep one foot in adults all the time. So there's one foot where I am really grounded in the here and now, I'm aware of what's happening around me, I'm aware of how other people are responding, I'm working with them to figure out what we do next. And then I make a choice in this moment, where do I need to pivot with the other foot? You know, if if I um I'm working with a client, a coaching client, I might think in this moment, does this client need me to pivot into either side of the parent ego state? One side of that is called the nurturing parent. Maybe I need to offer them some encouragement, some comfort, some understanding if they've shared something with me that's quite difficult. Or might I need to pivot to the other side of the parent ego state, which is called the controlling parent, which is about boundaries and rules, you know, being um being quite structured with them in terms of maybe saying, look, we've got just 10 minutes left before this session comes to an end. You know, what would you like to reflect on in the time that we've got? So I'm sort of managing time boundaries. Do I need to put one foot into the adaptive child and and really listen to them for a while and think about, okay, what's going on here? What else might I need to understand before we move on? Or do I want to pivot with the other foot to the free child and say let's let's lighten the mood here, let's do some brainstorming together, let's bring a bit of humour into the room. You know, that's the free child contains our humor and our ability to build rapport with people. So I think there's something about we using the adult ego state to make choices about what's healthy, what's going to be a healthy, useful way for me to respond in the moment. And often drama, at the best drama and storytelling, happens when people lose connection with that adult ego state and end up slipping into the sort of negative aspects of the parent and the child ego states. And I think that's what often makes interesting drama. You talked earlier about um uh as part of your program doing something about defining the villains, the villains of the piece.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yes, acting villains of the villains, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Uh that you know, that I think a lot of those villains will have lost uh, you know, at least some contact with the adult ego state, you know. That would be my theory anyway.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

That's that's really interesting way of looking at it, because I I always kind of had it in my head then that that the adult is the preferred state that you're always trying to get into, which you're saying is that yeah, you've got one foot in it, but uh as you say, we're all multifaceted individuals, and for that you need balance, you need balance of all the different ego states, and sometimes you do need to dip in, dip in and out of them, I think, in order to get along in life.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Yeah, there's the there's useful thoughts and feelings and behaviors in the parent and the child ego state that can be very useful to us, and you know, we we would describe those ego states as archaic in the sense that both of them are rooted in the past. So the child ego state is rooted in my personal past in terms of who I have been. The parent ego state is rooted in the past in the sense that it's full of our past role models. The, you know, going right back to the big people who were around us when we were growing up, you know, our primary caregivers, whomsoever they were, our teachers, our older siblings, you know, we've got all of those sort of different characters and characteristics, which when we step into that parent ego state, particularly if it's sort of unconscious and unknowing, we are often replaying other people's behavior. We're not authentically, in one sense, being ourselves. Um, you know, we are making use of what we've witnessed in others.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Oh, it's that moment where you in my experience is the moment where you feel like your dad.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Like I remember I was changing my daughter's nappy, you know. Well, she and she she's just recently turned 18, so this is quite a while ago, but it seems like just the other day, to be honest with you. But I was changing my daughter's nappy, and she'd uh, you know, she'd done a business in the nappy, and I and I took the nappy off, and there was the business there, and I said mochenbachbeda, and then suddenly stopped. It was like, what the hell? That was my dad. My dad was Welsh, and Mochenbachbeda means dirty little pig in Welsh, and it just came out, yeah, yeah. You know, it just and it's like, whoa, that's really powerful because that's literally a recording that I heard, and now I'm playing the part of parent. Yes, all those messages are all there in that complex, they're all there and they just came out.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Precisely, and that in one sense is what's important about that keeping the one foot in the adult, because what the adult helps us to do is to make a choice to dip into the parent and draw on behaviors that are useful. But when we have moments like that where we just replay something from our history, but we replay it as if it's actually current here and now reality, but it isn't. It's you know, that was uh something for you from some some years ago. Likewise, I remember once being with my sister's uh trained teacher, and I remember once helping her out in her classroom and heard her dealing with a couple of kids who had been up to no good. And I heard her say, I am so disappointed in you. And when she'd finished remonstrating with them, she looked up and we made eye contact, and I was grinning at her, and she just went, I know, I know, because that's straight out of our mother's mouth, particularly down to the phrasing, that little pause just before so god, I can remember being on the receiving end of that, you know, as a child.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

But it, you know, these things showing the disappointment, showing that you despair whilst chastising. And uh yeah, well, yeah, yeah, it's all there in there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 36:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

But what about when when an actor? So I I do an exercise with with my students, uh, where I really get to look and help them with their work individually. So I'll get them to get up and they'll do like uh a line of Shakespeare, right? So uh I usually start them off with oh for a muse of fire that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention. And we rehearse it, we go through what are the pictures, what are the thoughts, what does a muse of fire look like, what does the bright heaven invention? And they create the thoughts, and then I get them to turn around and take a deep breath, just let everything go so and just connect with stillness, and then I say action, and then they turn around and they deliver the line. And it's really like the whole process of acting because what we do, first of all, is we we choose what the objects of attention are going to be. What am I going to think when I say these lines? What are the pictures behind it? And then we program it. I get them to go through it and say it with the line slowly, so they get the thoughts. And then it we turn it over to subconscious creativity. So it starts as conscious technique, and then it turns into subconscious creativity, but the actor has to get out of the way and allow it to happen, as it were. Now, what's being got out of the way, because very often what the obstacle will be, and think of it in terms of ego states, is they will they'll be as an actor, they're in the child, you know, to as we were saying earlier, this there is something because it's play. You're even if you're playing at being a solicitor, it's it's it's play, you know, for an actor. So it's coming from that that free child, and that's what you, as an acting teacher and a director, that's what you want them to maintain, because that's when you get the best acting. But then they turn around and then they go to say it, and you can see that the critical parent comes in and sabotages the moment by making them doubt what they're doing.

SPEAKER_05 38:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

And you think the only thing that got in the way was that the habitual need to doubt yourself. Where does this come from? And then often they'll share, and it'll be, you know, my it's you know, it's the critical, it's my dad, is the voice of my dad living in my head, telling me that I'm doing it wrong or I'm not good enough, or some message like that.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah, that's very true. I mean, one of the things I struggled most with when I when I was acting, um, I had did a couple of sort of big parts in fringe productions. I I remember having a big role at school, and I can clearly remember being on stage, particularly actually there's a product, I was in a I played poor liner in a production of Wintersdale when I was at school. I can remember it was an all-girl school, so it was an another girl playing Leontes. I can remember looking at the the girl playing Leontes and looking at her whilst I was talking, thinking, you're gonna forget your lines, you're gonna forget your lines. In any minute now, you're gonna forget your lines. And I somehow I never actually did, but I used to spend so much time, you know, with this sort of critical voice, sort of telling me that I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna be able to do it. And um, and not being able to access my adult ego state and be able to say, that isn't true. You know, you've learnt your lines, you've been in the rehearsal process, you've got this. Let's get on stage and let's and let's do it. And I suppose that actually there's some of the positives of the nurturing parent in that sort of voice that's sort of encouraging you to be able to get on the stage. But you're you're absolutely right that um the negative aspects of particularly the parent ego states can sometimes really inhibit our ability to be able to, whether that is literally step onto the stage of the theatre or whether that's to step on this onto the stage of our, you know, whatever job it is that we do, can really sort of the the messages that we hear in our own mind can really get in the way of our ability to be able to be of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

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SPEAKER_02 41:42

So we were talking there in that first half about the blocks to good acting and the parent being one of those being kind of disapproving or that kind of judgmental side of us. I guess also I was thinking the the child could also play a part in in obstructing good acting as well, couldn't it? Because there's that sense of the adapted child wanting to please and yeah, wanting wanting the praise and the oh, aren't you a clever boy or girl, aren't you talented, that kind of thing. That can often be a block. And that got me thinking, that's it goes all the way back to the four life positions.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

For that Eric Byrne came up with it. Could you could you talk about, I think that's a quite a fundamental part of transaction analysis, isn't it? Could you talk about those four life positions and what they are?

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Sure. So the um life positions, um, Byrne talked about these as being sort of basic attitudes that we learn very early in life about ourselves and others, um, from either how people talk about us, you know, as we're very little and as we're growing up, or maybe based on experiences that we have. And that um these positions that we assume or take on board, you know, can remain with us throughout our grown-up life if we never sort of pick up on them and challenge them, particularly where they're not useful to us. Transactional analysis is one of those things that often when you mention the title, nobody's heard of. But if you talk to them about certain models, they go, Oh, yeah, I did that on a training course once. Um, so sometimes people have heard of something called the okay corral. So Byrne talked about life positions. Um, somebody who worked with him in the 1960s and 70s was a chap called Franklin Ernst, and he came up with a matrix version of the life positions called the OK Corral. And in more recent years, a British transactional analyst called Julie Hay started to talk about those as the windows on the world. Um, so the the basic life positions are um positions we assume based on how okay we perceive ourselves to be in the world and how okay we perceive others to be in the world. Now, this notion that there is a specific sort of thing that is meant by this notion of okayness. It's it's not about whether I'm okay in terms of have I got the material possessions that I want in life or have I had the success that I wanted in life. Life, you know, have I achieved what I was meant to be? Okay in this context is about my ability to have sort of respect for my own humanity in the moment and for the human being that I am, as well as the sort of the level of respect I have for the humanity of others. So you will hear this phrase, I'm okay, you're okay, and that comes out of the TA world. And what that is saying is if I if I have a belief of I'm okay, you're okay, then I have mutual respect for our common humanity. And I believe that I have the wisdom within me to make the decisions that I need in my life in order to be able to grow and to thrive. And I think you have the wisdom within you to make the decisions that you need to make in order to be able to grow and thrive in your life. And if I hold this sort of I'm okay, you're okay position and belief, um, I am probably gonna quite easily step into integrating adult-led behavior to be able to work with people and say, okay, we've got a situation here. How are we going to work together to solve it? It's it's our ability to be able to sort of separate human beings from their behavior. We may not like the way somebody has behaved in this particular moment, but I can have a conversation with them about that while still maintaining respect for who they are as a human being. And this notion of okayness is of fundamental importance in transactional analysis. It's one of the sort of three main guiding principles of TA, the first of which is people are okay. You know, people are okay in and of themselves. They have the what the other principles are everyone has the capacity to think. So people can think for themselves. They don't need an all-powerful, all-knowing doctor to tell them what the problem is. They might need some help and support to figure that out, but they can make that decision for themselves. And the third one is that people can decide their own destiny and they can also change their mind about that decision and make new decisions at the same time. So it's it's really getting into this sense about respecting the fundamental aim of transactional analysis is autonomy, enabling people to be autonomous individuals so that they are aware of their own choices and what it is that they want to do about a situation, and they can make spontaneous choices in the moment and build relationships of greater intimacy as a consequence and greater health.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

And self-worth, right, as well, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

It's the realizing that no one um aspect of my behavior can define my worth as a human being. That's important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Absolutely. And and that's one of the uh things that I think can be most challenging in the way that we end up delivering feedback, certainly in some of the work that I do in organizations, is that the way that we talk about um people's work gets mixed up in their sort of sense of worth and value as a human being. We, you know, we don't say, look, um, I I really respect you as a human being, and I think you're you're a great and you're a valued member of the team, and there's a problem with this project. We tend to say, what have you done with this project? You know, and and and instantly we're it sounds like we're criticizing them as a whole human being, which means that that uh feedback feels really painful because I am as a as an entity being attacked rather than having a sense of there's a problem with this specific action that I undertook over here, but I remain a human being who is of worth and of value. And indeed, we're working our way around to what some of the other life positions in that if I am the manager giving feedback and I say, you know, you idiot, you've made a mistake here and now you're making my life difficult. One of the other life positions is rather so one is I'm okay, you're okay. That position that I've just demonstrated is I'm okay, but you're not. You made a you made a mistake. And so when uh when we're in that I'm okay, you're not okay position, we're taking on a position of superiority, where you know, I'm all right, I do everything properly, the problem is everyone else. So if we have that window on the world, if we look at the world through that lens, then the assumptions and presumptions we're making is that it's always everybody else's fault. It's never my fault, it's somebody else. And so people who adopt that life position are often quite come across as being quite competitive, quite aggressive. You know, they will really put, they'll put other people down in order to maintain that experience of superiority. Now, a lot of people would talk about that. That's that superiority is often offering a cover for some deep-seated vulnerability that's that's coming through from elsewhere. But sometimes, you know, um it will play out there, it's a bit like fight or flight. They choose to fight. So they put themselves into what sometimes people call that one-up position where it's I'm okay, but you're not.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Can I get can I give give an example and see how it relates? So I'm working, I'm coaching uh an actress at the moment who's working on a big TV show that's shooting out in no New Zealand at the moment. And she was telling me that um, you know, the I was how's it all going? And she's she's talking about the acting thing, but they the production keep on forgetting to pick her up. And there's just like like that the the schedule is a bit messy, and there's just things that are making her experience uh as an actor there just that that are just interfering a little bit because she just wants to get on and do her job. So she would from the I'm okay, you're okay standpoint, she would email the production manager or whatever and just sort of raise the points in a friendly way. But what she got in return was very defensive. But it as if her position had been I'm okay, you're not okay, yes, they responded, therefore, from the position I'm not okay, you're not okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

So if you see what I mean. What would is that right? Is that what's going on there?

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Well, well, I mean, that is one way you could look at it. I mean, that it it could be if they were blaming her, and if you're right, if they were perceiving that she was coming at them from an I'm okay, you're not, sometimes what that will invite in other people, particularly if that is somebody who likes to um feel that actually they are the person who's in the right and who's this actress to be telling me how we should be running our you know uh schedule and all this kind of stuff. What it might have been was um trying to reassert their position of authority and power from an actually I'm okay, you're the one who's not okay, and reasserting some authority.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

So but but in a way though, but it but it doesn't matter whether you're coming from the I'm okay, you're okay position, because if you're dealing with someone who's in the position of I'm not okay, that then they're gonna they're gonna, you know, the mind will interpret the incoming information depending on the the situation that they're stuck in.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

So that's one of the things that's that can be useful, particularly in terms of understanding character about the windows, if you look at these as windows on the world, is that our window on the world determines how we interpret the information that's coming at us. So, you know, if we have got someone like um the actress you're working with who is sending us a, you know, from their view, an I'm okay, you're okay email just explaining that there's a problem here and you'd like to she'd like to work with them to get it resolved. If that is those sent to somebody who is in one of the other three positions, they will filter out the sort of positive intent behind her email and only pay attention to the things that can be interpreted in a way that reaffirms their view of the world, that either I'm okay, you're not, or it could be that you're you're dealing with somebody who believes that they're not okay and you are. And so it's a defensive. Sometimes you can invite sort of a sort of victim-like response of, you know, it's terrible, you wouldn't understand the difficulties we've got, you know, we're underfunded, and you know, all of the taxi drivers have come in sick, and you know, there's the oh god, isn't it isn't it awful sort of a response. But you're absolutely right. When we don't get the response we anticipated, it's giving us a lot of information about how that other person views the world and the assumption by the assumptions that they make, you know, it's the difference between I intend to come across a certain way, but the impact I have may well tell me about maybe miscommunications in what I've done, but it will also give me a lot of evidence about actually how that individual looks at the world and experiences the world.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

And so that need to be blameless, you know. There's we talk very much of much of our that the spiritual psychology of acting system is made up of human purposes. We've got like 180 different human purposes, and there's there's one purpose like I want to be blameless. Yes, so someone who wants to be blameless will never will always just argue to the top of the it wasn't their fault, yeah, and it's always they will always blame someone else, but really that's uh I'm not okay position, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 53:22

Well, it's often masking an I'm not okay position, it's taken, you know, it's it's a protective barrier, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

So the real position is I'm not okay, you're okay, but they take the position of I'm okay, you're not okay, in order to cover up that I'm not okay, yeah, you're okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

It's it's one sort of coping mechanism, you know, and it and again, this often comes and is learnt from experiences that we have, you know, growing up. If there are consequences of you know not knowing the answer to a question or making mistakes, if you don't grow up in an environment where mistakes are seen as an opportunity to learn and grow, but actually they are something that you are criticized for, it you know, it often builds in that sort of you know protective shell um that people can put up to say, well, it's not me, you know, or they were terrorized by a critical parent, yeah, they get into that position.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

But but and I suppose if you're terrorized by a critical parent, you would assume that I'm not okay position, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Well, that I mean, certainly if you've if you have a lot of interactions with people who step into the negatives of that controlling parent, you know, behavior, which is quite dominating, it doesn't actually encourage you as a young person to develop your own adult and to be able to problem solve for yourself and think about hang on a minute, actually, is this reasonable? Isn't it reasonable? We just get used to the fact that clearly there's something wrong with me. And therefore, in terms of life positions, it does invite us to develop a life position of in some way, shape, or form, I am not okay. And I it might be that I what I develop is a life position that I'm not okay, but everybody else is. So that's one of the other ones where um what I invariably do is all situations are always my fault. It you know, this always happens to me. Um, I know on other recordings you might talk about games people play in the drama triangle. You know, one of the positions on that is the victim. And you can you can map, although, although the okay corral is a matrix, you can still map the drama triangle onto it. Um certainly the the three sort of um uh more negative life positions, you know, you can map the drama triangle onto it. And there is that, you know, the I'm not okay, you are. That's very much the victim position of it's my fault, I'm I'm not good enough, feeling guilty, always sort of seeking approval from others, not able to really um you know generate their own sense of self-worth that comes with okayness. They don't have it, so they're looking for other people to give it to them the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

And that that can also be another kind of pseudo-position that people take is that um, and this is actually what but my behavioral pet hates, is when you know, when you're you're you you've had a disagreement with somebody or you've drawn someone someone's uh acted in uh an unkind or selfish way, yeah, and you question them for it, and they've been a persecutor, right? Yeah in some way, and you've named the game and said it, and immediately what they will do is like a like a game of musical chairs, they will jump on the victim chair, yes, and to take that position of being victim and make you into a persecutor when only a moment ago they were the persecutor, but they've done that. So that's taking on a pseudo-position of I'm not okay in order to enforce a position of I'm okay and you're not okay, because you you wouldn't be doing this otherwise, which in itself is a cover-up for feeling not okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

Well, I mean, that in one sense is the beauty of sort of game through. One they one of the things that Bern talked about in you know the drama triangle and well, he talked about the games people play is that there's often a switch of roles in the middle of the game which causes confusion because you suddenly think, hang on a minute, I thought they were being the persecutor two minutes ago. Why all of a sudden in a you know, quivering heap, crying, rocking themselves, you know, in the corner? It's like I I now don't know what's happening here, but there's a whole load of emotion in the room, and and and suddenly we've got to try and sort of sort this out. But but all of this often comes back to this lack of a sense of okayness, because one of, you know, in situations often where you know we get into these um you know dramas, we get into a what Bern would talk about a psychological game, is because we have a need that needs to be met. But in order to voice that need, we have to be prepared to be vulnerable, to say, either I'm unsure, I'm I'm frightened, I don't know the answer to that question, um, I've made a mistake. You know, that requires us to be comfortable sharing a level of vulnerability. And that's the potential potency of relationships where there is okay, okay relationships going on, where there is a respect for our humanity and a respect for the fact that we will all make stakes sometimes and that we can work together to sort them out. But so often we don't feel safe enough in our relationships to lean into that vulnerability to feel like I will be okay here if I volunteer and say, look, I made a mistake there, I'm sorry. So often we feel, I mean, I think that's often what happens, you know, in things in you know, social media these days, when it's at its worst, it can be a great force for good. But you know, somebody volunteers an opinion and 150 million people jump on you and say that's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

It doesn't have the nuance, does it, of the vulnerability that you say there's no humanity there because it's screens, because it's divided by this um yeah, distance where you can't see the other human being. That's why people react in in ways they never would if they were in front of in front of the person.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Yeah, precisely. But what it means is we still have the need that needs to be met. And so we go about trying to get that need met with ever actually clearly voicing it. It's one of those things, you know, doesn't say it about the game. We all know there's a game being played. We may not quite understand what's going on here, but we all know there's something that's not being said that's going on underneath the surface, you know, and so it get it gets us all rattled and riled. And so we we, you know, to go back to some of what we were talking about with ego states, we behave in ways that are dysfunctional rather than functional, because we've not got one foot rooted in the here and now in adults. We're not leaning into okay, okay communication. And somebody then in in those communications which are not functional, which are not okay, okay, somebody is always being disempowered. Somebody is always in one shape or form being discounted or made to feel less than. Um, and and so people are. I mean, I know I remember when I was in my days of acting in the rehearsal room, we often used to play like power games, status games. You know, people you get out a pack of cards, and depending on what number your card was, you know, whether you were a king or a queen, you had to, you know, we have to guess what number you got based on the way that you behave. Well, you know, you can use the the um okay corolla the windows on the world to think about what's my status in this relationship, depending on whether I'm looking at the world through an I'm okay, you're okay, or an I'm okay, you're not, or I'm not okay, you are, or the fourth position, which is nobody's okay, which is a very sort of hopeless position. I'm not okay, you're not okay. Everyone's to blame. You know, why do we bother? You know, it's all going to go to hell in a handcar anyway. You know, yeah, it's a very sort of futile position. Um, and you know, we do come across characters like that where they that you just feel like, you know, they're sort of a bit, maybe a bit of a mood hoover that, you know, no, no matter what you try, nothing is possible. There's no point. Why do we bother? Um, but all of that I think comes from the fact that people don't feel safe enough and okay enough to be able to actually share their, you know, their authentic feelings about what's going on. And, you know, Byrne, um, you know, a quote from Byrne is that every game, every script and and and every destiny is based on one of these four life positions. You know, what plays out in our lives, you know, is influenced by the the window through which we look on the world and our assumptions about our level of okayness and other people's level of okayness in it. And if we're not, if we don't become conscious of it, we can unconsciously play out that that you know that worldview by the way that we engage with our life and the way that we engage with other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

So is that what we're working towards the you know, in therapy, is that what you're helping the client towards the position of I'm okay, you're okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

Yeah, yes. I mean, I'm I'm I I work as a coach rather than as a therapist, but yes, absolutely, that's what you're looking to invite. You're looking to invite people into an I'm okay, you're okay way of working. And um, you know, as a coach, you know, one of the things I've got to be mindful of, because in one sense I'm there as a professional other to help people, would be very easy for me to step into a bit of a power position of I am the coach who's got all of these, you know, training and skills, and you are the poor client who's got some problems and I am going to help you with them, to step into that I'm okay, you're not, because you're the one with the problem. But actually, what we do as a coach is we're really there to create space for the client to realize actually they've got the answers within them. It's just in the coaching, the role is to protect enough breathing space for them so their own wisdom has a cat in hell's chance of making it to the surface. So it's about in in in supporting them to build the resource and the faith in their own capacity, you know, to come back to the TA principles, to think for themselves and to know that they can decide their own destiny and change their mind if they think decisions they've made previously are now no longer serving them. So I think it's absolutely that. I think what we have to be mindful of is that sometimes, you know, when we start to offer people an invitation to join us in the I'm okay, you're okay space, in the same way that we might want to offer somebody an invitation to join us in sort of adult to adult rather than purely parent-child interactions, which sometimes we can also get into. If it's an established pattern of behaviour, you know, people might not instinctively want to join us. So the example I often come across working in organizations is managers who might say to me, see, Sarah, the problem with my team is that there's nothing going on between their ears, that not an idea amongst them. You know, they never, you know, when I say to them, what are you going to do about this? They haven't got an idea and I have to step in and solve the problem. And I'm often listening to that thinking, I wonder how often they're given permission to come up with an idea themselves, or how often they are made to feel that the ideas they're coming up with are worthy. I've got a sense that that manager has stepped into an I'm okay, they're not position, which is then inviting their staff to step into a I'm not okay, but the boss is. And you think, well, we'll leave the boss to make the decisions. And if I was working with that manager as a coach, I'd be inviting them to reflect on the relationship dynamic they are inviting based on their window of the world, and to start inviting their staff to have ideas themselves, asking them what those ideas might be and allowing them to play it out. But what can often happen, say the first time you start to shift into an I'm okay, you're okay position and invite other people to it, and start inviting people who are used to being told what to do to come up with their own ideas, you might find what they start to do is go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how this works. I come to you with a problem, you tell me what to do, I go away and just do as I'm told. Life is simple. And so they might up the ante and go even more sort of hopeless and go, no, no, boss, but I really don't know. And you always come up with great ideas, please. Oh, wise one, tell me what I should be doing. That you really need to sort of perhaps stick to your guns and hold that I'm okay and perhaps be honest with them and say, look, I've been reflecting on my practice, and I realize I've got into a habit of always telling you what to do, which is perhaps teaching you that you can't come up with an idea yourself. And I don't believe that to be true. And I'm wanting to shift the way that we work to encourage and invite and support your ideas, and then hopefully that will make it okay for that individual to start to sort of step into themselves and join their boss in that more I'm okay, you're okay way of interacting and start to sort of build confidence in that. So, yeah, ultimately that's what we want is to be inviting people to operate from that and to begin to look at the world through that I'm okay, you're okay. window and see what becomes possible, which might have felt impossible before, if we look at the world through that lens and look at life through that lens.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

I think the problem mainly with life, isn't it, is ignorance. That's one of the main stumbling blocks to any kind of relationships and can you know unresolved conflict. But that is the great thing, isn't it? Through awareness, you can realise these things and then realize how ridiculous they are, shirk them and live a better life. But I think I guess from an acting point of view it's great news because that's how human beings operate. We know that this this comes up very early on in life and it's a position they often stick to. I think you often see like women in their 60s and 70s who grew up in a certain age, they kind of they're still very much in that position of a a small girl who's been told off and it's it's a weird thing to see an adult in their 70s or 80s who still has that tendency to stick in that position. And it's kind of the tragic thing I guess that they they stick there they don't have the awareness to get out of that that cycle.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Yes. And the yeah yeah and it it sounds like you know somebody who's maybe you know not been encouraged to develop their own pet adult and parent ego states that they've perhaps got quite caught in the child ego state and not learned to respond in the here and now they're still responding to life as they did when they were you know growing up when they were very young according to you know the the life script that they've developed.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Yeah. But if you if you um come from the position of I'm okay you're not okay yes then you must reinforce the other person's not okayness. You know but if you come from the position of I'm okay you're okay you reinforce the other person's okayness.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Well so it does other people a favor to sort this out doesn't it? It's like because is this is what you're projecting onto others you're casting them in rolls and and disabling them if you haven't sorted out your not okayness which makes you want to be okay and make others not okay.

unknown 1:08:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

If you see what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

Yeah but I I I do see you mean it's it's one of the joys of uh um a transactional analysis and having these conversations is is tying oneself in not in terms of talking about okayness. But yeah I absolutely follow and I think I think it's it's one of the um well one of the things we talk a lot of in in transactional analysis is about what we invite in other people. You know behavior breeds behavior. And and if I um am caught in a way of viewing the world where I'm not okay but everybody else is in order to reinforce my view of the world I will look to be in relationship with people who believe that they're okay and I'm not because it reaffirms what I think and feel about myself. And sometimes for people it can therefore be quite challenging if they come across somebody who's I'm okay, you're okay. Because it you know it's going to really disrupt how they've looked at their life and hopefully what it also will do is invite them into a healthier way of being and begin to I mean that's certainly what therapy can do.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

It's also what you know good coaching and and and good education and good counseling can do and good training in in courses is just begin to help people to broaden their window on the world and think actually there is another way of looking at this that actually might make life a happier experience for you if you can bear to begin to step away from that you know what is familiar and what is known to you so what's what's the relationship between the I'm okay you're okay position and what we might call self-actualization well I mean I would argue I'm okay you're okay is the route to self-actualization you know I mean how how would you define self-actualization John well I don't know with his the is the actual definition in psychology I'm asking for your my definition would be that it's the um uh it's the full unfoldment of the potentiality held within that individual it's that they're their best self you know that they're they're they're you know I I believe we all have talents that are everybody has talents everybody has qualities and it's the fulfillment of um one's life potential yeah would be self-actualization.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:22

Yes and I I think in one sense that is what that's another way of describing what transaction analysis is about and the and you know Burns aim for people to become to achieve autonomy is is for that sense of okayness for me to know that I can lean into my own wisdom and I can make the decisions about my life that feel right to me. Other people can have their opinions about it but what's important is my opinion and my ability to be aware of who I am, how I work, what I want, so that I can then make healthy spontaneous choices in the moment and have the freedom to make the choice I want and to know I can change my mind, you know, if I decide that something's different or you know it may work for me you know in this decade but you know 10 years down the line I've got the freedom to make a different choice. And I think that sense of okay okayness is about inviting um these days I mean as I say Bern what Bern's ultimate aim for transactional analysis was autonomy. There's a lot of conversation the TA world these days about harmony. So autonomy is about becoming the best version of myself. Homonomy is about creating a world where actually we are all having the best possible relationships with each other. So you know the potential shadow side of autonomy is that my life just becomes about me and everybody else can go to hell in a handcut. Whereas you know homonomy is about remembering that also there's a there's a whole community there's a whole you know ecology there's a whole world around me and about trying to live our lives in a way that actually enables everybody to thrive and everybody to self-actualize. And for me I think that's what that okay okay life position about. It's not about me being able to self-actualize at the expense of everybody else but it's about me being able to self-actualize and be a part of enabling other people to self-actualize as well. It's you know it's it's community it's what some people might also call communitas as well about enabling everybody to be able to you know thrive and experience joy.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:22

There's there's an element of stoicism about it as well isn't it that idea of what are the things that are in your control and what are the things are outside of your control worry about the things that are in your control and that'll lead to more happiness because I guess you were saying there as well that you can offer these life positions and somebody else can reject it or accept it. That's kind of not up to you but the thing you can do the best is live towards and strive towards that I'm okay, you're okay and that whole kind of idea of the pivot of being an adult but being able to integrate the parent and child as well. If you've if you as long as you're doing your part you hope yes that everyone else will do it. But I guess that's where the stress and anxiety comes from is trying to control it too much control other people's decisions and that's where the parent and the child can then run wild right and and also I think about being able to have the courage of your convictions about yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:09

I mean I think in you know the time that I have been you know studying and living with and working with transaction analysis it has I mean I've never been an an overly anxious person apart from worrying about forgetting my lines as I mentioned previously um but I I find generally that um I worry less about what other people think about what I'm doing. It doesn't mean I don't care and I'm not interested in their opinions but I have that sense of look this in the moment with the information that I have this feels right to me and therefore this is why I'm doing it. And if it then subsequently goes wrong, then you know there's lessons for me in that but I feel less frustrated because I made that choice because somebody else told me I should do it and I knew I shouldn't have done it in the first place. And you know it triggers you off into that less resourceful feeling. It's like I'm I'm in charge of my own life both in terms of what was successful and what wasn't. And those things that weren't successful, my word, they've been the most amazing learning opportunity for me, which has actually been the you know the the the foundation stone for further success. So it you know that okay thinking um invites a very positive look at what happens without being sort of you know in fantasy land and I'm just actually ignoring you know the big problems that are staring me smack in the face but I've you know just trying to put a rosy glow on everything. But but yeah so I suppose there is an element of stoicism you know realism but you know sort of positive realism about it you know that's got faith in the capacity for things to be for me to be okay um and for me to be in charge of my own life and not feel like I'm at the the whim or the behest of other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

So it's essentially it comes down to one's relationship with themselves.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

And then that that you know that I teach that you know that's the primary relationship. So when you're creating a character we create the character's self-image which is who they think they are not who they are but who they think they are an image of the self. Yes uh and then that self-image is kind of the the the linchpin or the cornerstone of everything is who they think they are is that relationship. And then of course in in the real world you're helping actors to develop you know in just their lives for them to just become steady and still in their own being and their own sense of self uh to develop a healthy constructive relationship with themselves and their own self-image. And once they've developed that then they naturally treat other people with love, respect and dignity. Yeah precisely and I think that's where the real work is is sorting helping people sort out their relationship with themselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:48

Yes. I mean Byrne's definition or said that um you know autonomy manifests in three ways awareness spontaneity and intimacy so awareness of the self and what's going on around you and with other people so that you can then you have spontaneity in terms of the options that are in front of you and the freedom to choose what you want to do. So to respond to a situation choose a response rather than knee-jerk react. And what that then leads to is relationships of greater intimacy and greater health because you are bringing your authentic self to those relationships rather than a you know wearing a mask in your relationships with other people trying to be somebody who is not the person that you that you truly are.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Right. But you're authentic to yourself. Precisely and when we're authentic that builds better relationships well exactly as well and then when we're but for the authenticity to arise the need to have the good opinion of others you know particularly the you know the critical parent and the you know we need to liberate ourselves from yes yes and I think that's the thing I think that's one of the beauties about understanding the parent ego state is to understand it's full of our role models.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:01

And some of those role models will have been really helpful to us as we grow up. Some of might served us well to get through a particular situation but maybe actually at this stage in my life that's not a useful way to for me to be and it can be useful to think about sometimes what we need to do is to do a bit of a computer program upgrade for you know these settings and think about you know who's in my parent ego state who are the role models I draw on and actually does that serve me anymore. And even with the child ego state, you know there may be some ways that I was when I was growing up you know if you think particularly in our teenage years, you know, as we're learning to be ourselves, we can get into the habit and ways of being which might have been acceptable then but actually they don't work for me now. And so some of the work that we do as transactional analysts is about updating the script, updating the ego states and thinking about actually what's useful to me. And that's an opportunity sometimes to actually choose to move into a different position, life position, to look at the world through a different window on the world. And I think often if you think about most TV, film drama, soap opera, a lot of the journeys you watch characters go on, you know, certainly for me the most absorbing dramas are where you are watching characters begin to realize there's a part of their script that's outdated and they are trying to sort of find a new way of being if you think a lot of dramas where you've got say people who've come out of prison or something like that and they're trying to go on the straight and narrow, you know that that's really challenging them to change the way and the pattern of their life thus far and to write a new script. And you know I think it's a very potent process to watch on screen.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

It's a very potent process to be a part of in some of the work I do professionally as a coach thank you for listening to the Spiritual Psychology of Acting podcast if you feel like you're getting a lot out of this podcast then please consider supporting us as a paid member over on our Patreon page patreon.com forward slash the Spiritual Psychology of Acting podcast or you can follow the link in the description of this episode. If you can manage a few quid a month that really helps us to continue making the podcast. If you can't afford that then please subscribe leave us a five star review and tell your friends, family colleagues every bit of support is hugely appreciated. That is it for now but join us again next week for part two of our miniseries on transactional analysis. Until then have a brilliant week and be excellent