ADHD: A Myth or Reality? A Conversation About Dr. Gabor Maté’s Controversial Claims

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Gabor Maté, a renowned author and speaker about ADHD and its impact on people's lives.

Trigger warning: Because I'm dedicated to helping as many individuals with ADHD as I can, I push myself to the limit and brought someone to this space who has been a contrarian in the ADHD world specifically, in the origins of ADHD. I'll leave it up to you to decide which viewpoint you agree with. But what is noteworthy is that we can all learn from different viewpoints as we continue to explore our experiences with ADHD, what is, what isn't and how it shows up for each of us.
 
You don't have to agree with my guest's viewpoints to reach the benefits of what he shares during this episode. Trauma is a very real topic for individuals and up to 70% of adults have experienced at least one traumatic event in their lifetime.

Do I agree with everything in this episode?

Does it matter what I think?

Listen to the end to hear my opinion.

What We Discuss:

• How Dr. Maté believes that ADHD is not a disorder, but a result of the environment in which an individual lives.
• The impact of childhood trauma on the development of ADHD.
• The role of parents in the development of ADHD.
• The need for connection and relationships in managing ADHD.
• The impact of stress on attention and the development of autoimmune diseases.
• The importance of taking care of oneself and managing stress in managing ADHD.
• The role of medication in managing ADHD symptoms.
• The importance of understanding oneself and seeking help in managing ADHD.

If you would like to learn more about Dr. Gabor Maté, visit his website, drgabormate.com

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Successful with ADHD. If you enjoyed this conversation, please +FOLLOW the podcast on your favorite platform and leave a review to let me know your thoughts.

Timeline:

0:38 A special message from Brooke
2:27 Dr. Gabor Mate’s background in ADHD.
7:14 ADHD doesn’t have to define you.
12:24 The architecture of the brain
18:28 The risk of addiction in ADHD.
23:49 If you want to get a two year old to behave, don’t get triggered…
26:31 How much do you have to motivate your kids?
30:45 What’s the difference between compounded trauma and trauma?
35:51 The importance of the attachment relationship in parenting.
42:14 If someone has a troubled childhood and their implicit memory is encoded in their brain, can we remove that memory over time?
47:49 Your body and your mind react when you put pressure on yourself.
52:28 Gabor’s book recommendations for parents.

Resources:
Dr. Gabor Maté's website - drgabormate.com

-When the Body Says No: The Cost of Hidden Stress by Dr. Gabor Maté
-Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté

Are you a professional with ADHD looking for ways to control the chaos of your ADHD brain, find consistency in your positive habits and routines, and gain the tools and accountability to be confident and empowered? Check out our upcoming signature 3C Activation © hybrid 1:1 and adult ADHD Group Coaching program starting in May!

Are you a high-achieving adult who still struggles with the chaos of your ADHD, wants a hard reset to create structures and routines that stick, to ultimately build greater confidence?

Check out our 12-week signature process, small group for adults with ADHD or suspected ADHD, 3C Activation, starting Tues, May 7 @ 7pm EST ▶ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/3cactivation

Transcript

Gabor Mate  0:00  
The first thing to do you have difficulty paying attention get bored easily have poor impulse control and and difficulty sitting still, what would you say? Yes. And then I'd say, Why do you have those sentence? You'd say, because I have ADHD? And then I'd say, how do you know you have ADHD? Because they have difficulty sitting still paying attention, etc. But why do I have racing thoughts and have difficulty paying attention? Because I have ADHD? How do we know you got ADHD because I have racing thoughts and difficulty sitting still. You haven't explained the thing. It's not an explanation. It's a description

Brooke Schnittman  0:38  
Welcome to successful with ADHD, I'm Brooke Shipman. And if you have ADHD and are feeling overwhelmed, chaotic, negative self beliefs, you're in the right place. The successful with ADHD podcast shares my guests journeys of overcoming challenges offering their tips and strategies for success to empower you to take control of your life and thrive with ADHD. Let's get started. 

Trigger warning, because I'm dedicated to helping as many individuals with ADHD as I can I push myself to the limit and brought someone to this space who has been a contrarian in the ADHD world specifically, in the origins of ADHD. I'll leave it up to you to decide which viewpoint you agree with. But what is noteworthy is that we can all learn from different viewpoints as we continue to explore our experiences with ADHD, what is what isn't and how it shows up for each one of us. I can tell you the night after my interview with Dr. Mate, the topic caused a disruption with my husband due to the emotional disturbance directly related to his childhood. He had to take a walk at 10pm to let his automatic nervous system settle. You don't have to agree with my guests viewpoints to reach the benefits of his teaching from this episode. Trauma is a very real topic for individuals and up to 70% of adults report experience at least one traumatic event in their lifetime. Do I agree with everything in this episode? Does it matter what I think? Listen to the end to hear my opinion. Hi everybody and welcome back to successful with ADHD. I have Gabor Mate and a lot of you who follow me know him very well. If you know anything about addiction, stress, ADHD Childhood Development, Dr. Gabor Mate is highly sought out after his expertise on a range of topics. And he's written several best selling books, including The New York Times bestseller The Myth of normal, the award winning realm of hungry ghosts, close encounters with addiction when the body says no, the cost of hidden stress and scattered minds, the origins and healing of Attention Deficit Disorder, which I can't believe I haven't read it until now. But of course, I was looking through notes on my apple notepad from suggested books and it was on there, but ADHD brain never got around to it. And he is the co-author of hold on to your kids why parents need to matter more than peers. So his work has been published and internationally in more than 30 languages, which is so amazing. Welcome, like you're nice to be with you. Very nice to have you here. Did I miss anything?

Gabor Mate  3:31  
No, only to say that, you know, I trained as a medical doctor Brooke as a family physician, within family practice in palliative care. And then for 12 years. We're heavily drug addicted population here in Vancouver. I myself was first self diagnosed and undiagnosed ADHD in my early 50s. And very quickly, I came to the conclusion that the usual explanation of ADHD just didn't wash. And so that's my with my first book, which was the scattered minds that you just read.

Brooke Schnittman  4:03  
Absolutely. So you were self diagnosed, What gave you that idea that initially before you got a medical diagnosis that you in fact might happen?

Gabor Mate  4:15  
Well, most adults, I think, come to the kind of self recognition so I was working as the medical coordinator of the palliative care into the Vancouver hospital, looking up to terminally ill people in addition to my family practice, and the social worker in the unit whose name was Betsy Joe Spicer can do one basis Hey, can we have coffee and this year? And she told me she just been diagnosed with ADHD. And she told me all the symptoms, you know, they had poor impulse control, the difficulty paying attention easily being bored, restlessness and so on. So the oh, this is me and she said, Yeah, I know this. I wanted to have coffee with you

Brooke Schnittman  4:49  
that she didn't come out and tell you about it. She insinuated that

Gabor Mate  4:54  
basically, so it was in five minutes. I got it. You know, I didn't know anything about the condition. Most talked Just don't steal don't been then don't now, but I just immerse myself into the ADHD literature. And as much as I appreciated the diagnosis is kind of a framework for my life of why I behaved in certain ways and function in certain ways or dysfunction in certain ways. At the same time, the medical explanation of this as a genetic brain disease just never made any sense to me. And so, I started off with that. I did get funny typically, as they described in Scotland lines as you read, but typically impulse control or the lack of it. The first day I heard about ADHD, I self medicated. Don't try this at home, folks. But because that wasn't the disclaimer. I went to one of my friends said, Hey, Bob, I think everybody can you give me some redolent issues? Sure. How much do you want. And typically, under the principle that if a little bit of Ritalin is good, then more is even better? I took a higher than recommended initial dose. And as I described in the book, I really felt present and focused. And I went home and my wife said, You look stoned. And within a couple of days, the ruling really made me depressed. Which is one of its potential side effects. I mean, not in everybody, but that sort of every brain is different. Right? I did go see psychiatrists, she did confirm the diagnosis and prescribed dexedrine, which helped me for a while, and I took it while I with my first book, they actually made me a much more efficient workaholic, you know, and I could

Brooke Schnittman  6:27  
not another addiction,

Gabor Mate  6:31  
not good personally pursue my addiction to work even more diligent, you know, but it did help me write my first book, then I immerse myself in the scientific literature. And truly, the idea that this is a genetic disease is scientific nonsense. And I don't care how many times people repeat it, they just haven't looked at the evidence. So and, you know, since the publication of the book I've had, you know, or how many hundreds or 1000s of people telling me that I changed their lives, they understand and chosen books published internationally, and all kinds of languages. And so I'm more convinced than I was then, because more information has come out not to support it, that ADHD is a not a disease, and B, it's not inherited.

Brooke Schnittman  7:11  
So it doesn't have to define you. And like you said, in the book, you're not ADHD, you have ADHD.

Gabor Mate  7:19  
Well, you know what, I don't say that anymore. Okay.

Brooke Schnittman  7:22  
What do you say now?

Gabor Mate  7:24  
Well, here's the thing, like, I have a wallet, okay. So here's my wallet, I can pick it up, I can put it down, I can give it away. The qualities and characteristics of the wallet doesn't depend on me. It's totally separate from me. I haven't, there's an entity called I doesn't have the called Gob or, like, there's an entity called Brook. Then it's an entity called a wallet. And this entity Gob or has this political a wallet, but there's no part of me. Now, when I say I have ADHD, if I say I have multiple sclerosis, if I say I have depression, I'm making an assumption, which is that there is an eye an entity called GABA, and an entity called ADHD that I have that's got its own characteristics and its own life. Separate for me, number one, number two, although when I was first diagnosed the victim and I first wrote the book, I thought, well, this explains I am it actually doesn't explain anything. Cause if I say to you, do you have difficulty paying attention, get bored easily have poor impulse control and and difficulty sitting still? What would you say? Yes. Okay. And then I'd say, Why do you have those sentence? You'd say? Because I have ADHD? And then I'd say, how do you know you have ADHD? Because they have difficulty sitting still paying attention, etc. racing thoughts? And but why do I have racing thoughts and have difficulty paying attention? Because I have ADHD? How do we know he got ADHD? Because I have racing thoughts and difficulty sitting still. You haven't explained the thing? You know, it's so fascinating. It's not an explanation. It's a description. Wow. It describes how my mind works, differences in similarities, but it describes in some measure how your mind works. Yeah, but it doesn't explain it. The explanation is circular. So there's two points to be made. It's not that there's a thing called ADHD that I have is that there's a process in my nervous system and my body that is characterized by certain features. But where did that where does that process come from? And is it separate from me? And if I change that process, which I know I can do, all of a sudden, I function differently?

Brooke Schnittman  9:48  
So what is it a lot about automatic nervous system in the book?

Gabor Mate  9:52  
Well, yeah, so definitely ADHD refers to the functioning of our minds and our brains and our nervous system. But that doesn't mean that it's a separate entity that we have. It's a process that occurs in my nervous system. If I look back in my life, why do I have trouble paying attention? Why do I tune out? Why does anybody by the way, if you have tell me you have ADHD or quote, unquote, have ADHD, I can tell you about your childhood. And your childhood is, number one, you're probably genetically very sensitive, which means you're more affected by things than other kids are. You had a very stressful early few early years, your parents have difficulties that we did their best loved you, but they had their own stresses. You as a sensitive child absorb those stresses, you can't help it. That's your nature, part of the young infant, small child, the old stresses, can they escape or change the situation? Their brains to nod as a defense mechanism? Right. So it begins as a coping mechanism. But when does it begin as a Copenhagen when your brain is being developed, so it gets programmed into your brain?

Brooke Schnittman  11:02  
But then you may not know about, you know, the encoding that goes into your implicit memory for years on end until we try to rewire our brains. I'm talking

Gabor Mate  11:13  
about that. I'm talking to you more than that. I'm talking about the fact that the human brain, and this isn't something that I make up this is according to brain science. And we've known this since the 1980s. That the human brain develops in interaction with their environment, so that the circuits of the brain like Do you have children?

Brooke Schnittman  11:32  
I do I actually have a one year olds and I have two stepsons, nine and 11.

Gabor Mate  11:36  
Okay, great. So I have a one year old. I do.

Brooke Schnittman  11:39  
And every time I was reading your book, I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm doing this wrong. I can't break eye contact with her. Well, exactly.

Gabor Mate  11:47  
But here's the thing. No, one day old baby has any attention skills, they can pay attention only for a few seconds. Right? They don't have impulse regulation. They can't even control their bladder, you know, not bladder control has to develop with the development of the nervous system. Right? So does impulse control have to develop? So if it's a matter of development, then the question you have to ask is, what are the right conditions for healthy brain development? And what are not? So with the kind permission, I'll read two sentences, please do? Yeah. This is from an article that appeared in the Journal of Pediatrics, which is the official journal of the American Pediatric Academy. This is the official organization of American pediatricians. That's the journal Pediatrics, the articles in the Harvard Center on the Developing Child. Now this harvest center is the world's foremost chod brain development study organization. And then this article published 11 years ago now 15 years after the publication of my book, when I was already saying these things, not because they discovered it, but because the research was already available. They summed up the research that here's what they say about brain development. The architecture of the brain is constructed to an ongoing process that begins before birth, continues into adulthood, and establishes either a sturdy or fragile foundation for all the health learning and behavior that follow. Now, the architecture, the brain is concerned that an ongoing process that begins before birth, what does that mean? It means that the emotional states of the mother are already shaping the surrogate of the infant brain. Mothers who are stressed during pregnancy are much more likely to have kids with ADHD later on. We know that, okay. Secondly, it establishes either a sturdy or fragile foundation for all the health learning and behavior, not some of the health, all the way up to the foundation of health, learning and behavior are laid down to the construction of the brain, which begins before birth. Now you're on the way adopted kids have much more higher risk of ADHD. First of all, they spend nine months in a stressed uterus, because any woman who's gonna give a baby for adoption is by definition stressed if she wasn't stressed, she wouldn't want to give up her infant, right single mom, she's an addicted mom. She's an abused mom, a poor Amman, an immature teenager, for nine months, the hormones of stress are going through that the baby affecting their brain development. And then at birth, happens to major trauma, which is separation from the body of the birth mother, which is that trauma to the infant. So that's the first sentence. Okay? This is key. The interactions of genes and experiences literally shapes the circuitry of the developing brain. So it's no genes is the action of the environment on the genes that turns the genes on or not. So the interaction of genes and experiences literally shapes the circuitry the developing brain and is critically influenced by the mutual responsiveness of adult child relationships, particularly in the early childhood years, which means that the most important influence on the physiology on neurotransmitters on the connection so naps is a network of the brain is the quality of emotional interaction with the adults. Now, why are more and more kids being diagnosed these days, because parents are more and more stressed than he used to be. It's not the fault of the parents. There's no parent blaming here. But the stress is on the parents in the more generically sensitive the child, the more likely they're going to be affected. So when somebody tells me they're ADHD, okay, again, who first of all, you have a sensitive person, B, you grew up in a stressful environment, and your brain dealt with it by tuning out. And the impulse regulation and the attention circuits just didn't get the right support for that development. So it's not a disease, it's a developmental problem, which is good news. Because it means that if we provide the right environment to older kids, or to adults, they can develop new circuits. And the problem with the diagnosis is that first it doesn't explain anything, which just describes it. As I already said, number one, number two, most of the time people get diagnosed, whether it's a child an adult, all that happens is that somebody tries to deal with their symptoms, but know what the underlying issue, right? And that's why people struggle, because most physicians, by the way, would never clue what I'm talking about. Because this stuff about brain development is not taught in the medical schools, even though it appears in all the medical journals. It's unbelievable, the gap between science and medical practice.

Brooke Schnittman  16:22  
Why do you think there is that big gap? They're just not studying

Gabor Mate  16:26  
it in school? Before I answer that, can I ask you, am I making sense to you? Actually,

Brooke Schnittman  16:30  
when I first started my ADHD journey, I was talking to a neuroscientist who told me something similar to what you're sharing with me. And she was explaining how RNA can change over time based on environmental issues. And that's what she thought was the development of ADHD.

Gabor Mate  16:51  
So when they talk about it running in families, the fact that it runs in families proves nothing about genetics. I mean, I'm a medical doctor, if my three kids, they all have it right. To them every diagnosis. That doesn't mean I pass it on genetically, because if they became medical doctors, would that prove that the practice of medicine is a genetic disease? Something can run in families without being passed on genetically, what is passed on his distress?

Brooke Schnittman  17:15  
Hmm. So do you think that's where the confusion is then. So the stress that the parent has gotten, and it's encoded into their brain, now it's being passed on to the children.

Gabor Mate  17:28  
Of course, it is one of my kids are small, I was a workaholic, driven, somewhat depressed, functioning very much like the typical ADHD person. At home, I would be kind of listless and bored. And I wouldn't be that engaged. I was in a stress marriage, because we always married somebody at the same level of trauma and stress that we're at. So my wife and I, together not 53 and a half years, but when we had children, it was a very stressed marriage. And our kids would live in a stressed environment. We didn't pass on ADHD, we passed on the stretch. And their response to that. Just to tune out this alcoholism is genetic nowadays, and there are no alcoholism genes. And anytime they think they found one. Turns out they didn't. Well, what's it like to grow up in a home and a father's an alcoholic? It's traumatic, showing what it's called. It's a painkiller. So you start drinking to soothe your pain. By the way, people with ADHD, as we know, are

Brooke Schnittman  18:29  
attended to addiction, right? What is it? 50%?

Gabor Mate  18:33  
I don't know. But it's certainly higher than the average. And why? Because both addictions and the STI start off in early childhood stress and trauma. Like there's an article in The New York Times on Sunday about oh, for some unknown reason, whether you treat kids with ADHD with medications or whether you don't, the risk of addiction is the same. Right? And I'm so glad that you said that. And they said, for reasons we don't understand. Well, that's because they don't see reality. The reality is both ADHD and addictions are rooted in emotional pain, stress and trauma. So if you treat this as medications, but you don't address the emotional needs, why would they be less risk reduction than other people?

Brooke Schnittman  19:15  
If the ADHD medication is increasing? The flow of dopamine? Yeah. Which ADHD is lack? We know. Yeah.

Gabor Mate  19:27  
I know. We don't actually, well,

Brooke Schnittman  19:29  
we're not getting it at a stable rate. Correct. Now,

Gabor Mate  19:33  
we don't know anything. Now, here's the thing. The medications can help, right? I mean, I've experienced that. Maybe you've experienced antidepressants can help our experts that, but does that mean that the problem was a lack of that chemical in your brand? Let me ask you a question. You go to a party and you're gonna shy and reticent. And then you have a glass of whiskey and all of a sudden your friend being more open hearted, open minded. Does that mean they do social shyness? was caused by lack of whiskey in your brain?

Brooke Schnittman  20:01  
Of course not.

Gabor Mate  20:03  
Okay, well then let's not jump on medication to conclusions about causation.

Brooke Schnittman  20:07  
I'm just asking though, if someone does take ADHD medication, right? Very often it's been shared that they can stop binge eating as much while they're on the medication. They have less addictive behaviors. So do you disagree with that? Because you just said that the times came out that it doesn't really make a change on addictive tendencies.

Gabor Mate  20:32  
Well, when I took dexedrine later, I became more of a workaholic.

Brooke Schnittman  20:37  
Yeah. So it just is displayed somewhere else,

Gabor Mate  20:40  
or to pay attention better, and stay longer at the desk helped me write first book, as I mentioned, I'm grateful for it. But it didn't help my addictive tendencies one little bit. That was a whole other issue. Right now, the work call isn't was in response to my childhood trauma. Right? So unless you deal with that stress, traumatic basis, if you have an ADHD child, don't just try and fix their behaviors. The medications may help with me not, you know, I'm not against them. I described them I use them. But they're not the answer. They only deal with symptoms.

Brooke Schnittman  21:17  
Sure. So with the workaholism, as you mentioned, also, in your book, you talk about contingent self esteem and true self esteem. Would you say that your workaholism was giving you that reward, and that was contingent self esteem?

Gabor Mate  21:34  
Yes, so conditions that sustain means that your self esteem hinges on something else. So maybe you like me, that makes me feel really good about myself. But if you didn't like me, that makes me feel bad about myself. That means that my self esteem is contingent on your opinion, right? Or maybe my self esteem is contingent on my being successful at work. Maybe my self esteem depends on how people appreciate my looks, or whether I write a best selling book or not. Well, that's contingent self esteem. Conditioned self esteem says, I'm worthwhile because I can do this, that or the other. But genuine self esteem has got nothing to do with that genuine self esteem says, I'm worth well, whether or not I can do this, that or the other. And people with ADHD tend to have a lot of people in our society. They talk about Malmo, Sweden, recent book, a lot of people in the society are trained to have this contingent self esteem, or how I feel about myself depends on what I can achieve, attain or acquire other people's esteem, financial success, but that's not genuine self esteem, dense lives and says you're worthwhile as human beings just because you exist, period. Right? And that very few of us get, because to get that you have to have parents who are really able to validate and accept you exactly the way you are. And most of us experience struggle as much as we love our kids. Most of us struggle to give them that sense of unconditional acceptance.

Brooke Schnittman  23:05  
Yeah, there's so many questions that I want to ask about parenting. Of course, as a new mom of a 13 month old, you had mentioned in the book that rewards don't work as far as you know, homework and, you know, anything that the parent specifically wants, and the child does that motivated on, and also punishment doesn't work for long term.

Gabor Mate  23:33  
Well, that may or may not work, but the word effect. Look, if you want to get a two year old to behave, I'm going to be extreme here and don't get triggered anybody. You're gonna help it. You want to get to behave. hit him really hard a few times. It works. It works. Yeah.

Brooke Schnittman  23:51  
My husband was hit. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But then there's the all that trauma and emotional. So yeah, tuning out. Know if

Gabor Mate  23:59  
you want to reward a kid if you don't know. Alfie Kohn was an educator, he says, the rewards motivate kids, yes, it motivates them to get more rewards. But is that what we want? Or do we want to get them intrinsic motivation, where they want to learn intrinsic motivation all the time? That's what we want. So build rewards, we undermine the intrinsic motivation. Now, what if it wasn't said to you? Every time you tell me that you love me broken will give you $10

Brooke Schnittman  24:33  
I love you. I love you. I love you. All day long, every minute.

Gabor Mate  24:38  
And after a while, you wouldn't do it anymore. You're right. Because you're not saying because it comes out to you. You're saying it to get a reward in fit so powerful. And since it's not coming from you, you will even start resisting it. You know this business of okay, if you're good. Today, I'll give you a chocolate bar and if after you've earned it Like chocolate bars, pizza movie. And after five movies, I'll take you to the mall and after five malls, I'll take you to Disneyland. And after five Disney,

Brooke Schnittman  25:10  
my two stepsons are very rich right now. No, just kidding. They spend all their money on Roblox.

Gabor Mate  25:17  
Okay, what's gonna happen is that a part of you will start resisting it. Because this core version had every time you want somebody to do something more than they want to do it. It's the kind of pressure. So the reward itself is the kind of pressure. Gotcha. And lots of experiences have shown that when you stop the pay, they stopped the play. In other words, they do it for the reward. But it's pay to play. Yeah. So you want kids to be motivated intrinsically.

Brooke Schnittman  25:47  
So of course, I'm sure you've heard this a million times. If they're not intrinsically motivated, and you're showing them lots of love and emotional connection and you're truly engaged, then what?

Gabor Mate  26:01  
Then they start feeling good about themselves. And there'll be intrinsically motivated. Intrinsic motivation comes from worthwhile. I'm an interesting and my thoughts and desires matter. And that gives you intrinsic motivation. Yeah, first of all, you have a 13 month old, yes. How much do you have to motivate them? Now they're much I mean, Bria will want to eat, she wants to play. She wanna play Let us now she wants to play peekaboo. You know, she wants to pet the cat or the dog now. She's absolutely She's nothing but intrinsic motivation. Why? Why do we ruin it? You know, that's part of our nature. Interesting. Motivate, I mean, any animals motivation? Do you have to motivate a lion out in the woods to live with the dead? The motivated bear cub? I mean, interesting. Motivation? Is part of nature, part of our nature. problem, is that the way we parent, we kill it. And then we try to motivate them with rewards or punishments.

Brooke Schnittman  27:06  
So do you believe that in schools, so a lot of as a former special education teacher and administrator, we would do behavior plans for students with ADHD because it got them to focus on the curriculum, and they would receive rewards? So would you say cut those out? I know, it's not a black and white thing, but do they not work long term?

Gabor Mate  27:31  
No, they don't work long term, you cannot teach and using motivation by external rewards. You know, the real question is, why did they have to live paying attention? Right? What kind of stress is going on in their homes? Or the chance at the core? Now? How do they feel about themselves? What do they need to feel good about themselves? What do they need to feel validated? You know, now, hadn't said that. I'm not being absolute here. But I'm saying, if we only focus on behaviors, we're missing the point the behaviors in any human being children, especially, are only a manifestation of their internal emotional lives. Or, and, and by the way, I used to be a teacher as well. Nothing in my education ever taught me anything what the emotional lives of children. Did you get any such education? No, no. And yet, that's the most important dynamic.

Brooke Schnittman  28:25  
Someone asked me this recently on their podcast, what is something you remember that really stood out to you a negative comments and a positive comment? And I said, the negative comment was from my fourth grade teacher, the positive comment was from my fifth grade teacher.

Gabor Mate  28:40  
Yeah, I remember that too. We all remember, they're so powerful, you know, and I only taught for three years, but I didn't have that many students, you know, little every once in a while, I wouldn't run some middle aged adults. It just makes us feel really old. And they say, you don't remember this. I used to my teacher and you said one thing to me that's always stuck with me. On the other hand, when I was in family practice, and then began to receive referrals to treat people with ADHD, I'd have adults in their 30s 40s sitting in the office crying tears, because something that teacher said to me when they were 12 years old in a classroom, so unwell made me a teacher who didn't know what they were talking about, who said, the classroom will resume and Johnny comes back to Earth. Person K that wound for decades.

Brooke Schnittman  29:29  
100% I just heard from my nine year olds, mom that the teacher excluded him from an activity because he wasn't able to follow all the directions. Yeah, he has ADHD is working memory. I mean, he doesn't he can't follow the directions to a tee. Right now he's sitting while everyone else is doing that activity. Now embarrassing.

Gabor Mate  29:52  
It's humiliating, isn't it? Yeah. It is. It is traumatized as a kid to be given the sense that he is something wrong with them. He does Some belong. He's a failure. Absolutely. Teachers have no idea how much power they wield, than how much damage they inadvertently do. Yeah, you're talking about his difficulty following multiple directions. I have difficulty following multiple directions. I'm walking the street in some strange city. And I see Well excuse me, which way is such and such? They'll see, well, you go to the right, and you make a left turn. I might remember the first direction.

Brooke Schnittman  30:26  
Yep. First and last for me. Nothing in between.

Gabor Mate  30:32  
Yeah. But then to make a kid wrong for it. Yeah, that's the minister, she have a function of their brain circuitry. Terrible. Yeah. And a lot of kids are being humiliated and hurt in our schools away, because the schools don't pay attention to the child's internal life, just to their external function. Yeah. You talk a lot

Brooke Schnittman  30:53  
outside of this book. I've heard a lot of your talks before about compounded trauma and like, trauma, that is one event. Can you give an example because compounded trauma could be very small, like to someone? It might seem like nothing, right, but it's still considered trauma to the individual. So can you describe the difference between compounded trauma and trauma?

Gabor Mate  31:21  
I'm not sure that I use the phrase compounded from myself. Okay. But I don't think I do. I don't. Okay.

Brooke Schnittman  31:32  
Thank you, John, let's set the record here.

Gabor Mate  31:37  
But the underlying principle of what you're raising here is important. You can't define trauma for somebody else. For example, if I say to a child, don't be so stupid. If that child says good about themselves, they can go to mommy and daddy and say, Hey, Gabor said, I'm stupid. And I don't like it. And they say, Oh, don't be ridiculous. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Like, he's not gonna be traumatized. But if that kid already feels bad about consults, then I'm just confirming what they already ability. Yeah, same incident, completely different impact on the person differently. And depending also, on the sensitivity of the job, the more sensitive, the more likely they are to be hurt. Now, trauma simply means a wound. That's what it means. And wounds can be smaller, great. But what is a deep wound painful wound for me might not be for you and vice versa. So it never does to say to anybody, a commodity can be divided. Look, if you're 13 month old, man, she's three years old, says Mommy, I'm hungry. I'm one eight, and you said well dinners in 10 minutes. No, I want to eat right now. And if you said, well think about all the starving children in Asia.

Brooke Schnittman  32:51  
That's invalidating her thoughts.

Gabor Mate  32:53  
While helpful with that may be true, but not healthy. Yeah. So it doesn't, doesn't do to compare people's traumas. People can be wounded in many ways they can be wounded by terrible things happening. Tsunami, a war an earthquake, barren, dying. appending abusive physically, emotionally, sexually, a bad divorce, and being jailed.

Brooke Schnittman  33:16  
You are a Holocaust survivor, right?

Gabor Mate  33:19  
Yeah. Yeah, it's ancient. But you don't need those double big T events to traumatize people. And in my new book, the middle of normal, it's the first chapter is about trauma. Yeah, me to read that. You can also want kids just by not meeting their needs. So for example, again, that's tic you and I as adults, they're both married. How does it feel when our partner misunderstands or misrepresents what we said? What does it feel like?

Brooke Schnittman  33:46  
It feels like a punch in the gut.

Gabor Mate  33:49  
Okay, now here we are an adult, you're I am an adult, we have much more capacity, how does it feel to you or not to be understood?

Brooke Schnittman  33:58  
It must be like their world is over. Yeah.

Gabor Mate  34:01  
And to the adult, it's nothing. You know, I mean, to see the adult who's doing it, they're not even realize they're doing it. But just by not getting the kid not being attuned with the kid not understanding the kid. I mean, occasionally it happens. But if it happens regularly, for example of a kid is very sensitive. And of course, don't be so sensitive. You're saying don't be you? Right? You know, it's it's like me telling you not to be a brunette, you know,

Brooke Schnittman  34:28  
well, technically I have gray hairs but there's this thing called die that cover it up. Oh, you're right. Okay. Pardon me.

Gabor Mate  34:39  
Tell you should not to be blue, but blue is its color. That's what it is. Right. I'm really sensitive. That's how they are. When they're told don't be so sensitive. What are they really hearing?

Brooke Schnittman  34:50  
We don't like you the way that you are.

Gabor Mate  34:52  
You are not acceptable the way you are. That's deep woundedness deeply warning to adults, let alone to young children. Right. Thank you. You're wondering these days in these ways, all the time, but adults who love them?

Brooke Schnittman  35:05  
Exactly. We're doing our best. We're not realizing it's happening. And there's so many things to think about as I like I said, as I was reading scatter minds, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, and he's make sure I do this or don't do this. So when you had mentioned the eye contact, don't break eye contact with an infant. Yeah. Now I'm just staring at her until she does

Gabor Mate  35:28  
know. And when she does let her yeah, don't.

Brooke Schnittman  35:33  
Don't. Don't look at me focused, right? Exactly. No,

Gabor Mate  35:37  
it's not about you. It's about her.

Brooke Schnittman  35:38  
Yeah, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about timeouts? I know, I just seen another podcast that you're on where you mentioned, timeouts,

Gabor Mate  35:48  
let's say you with your present spouse. And on the first day, they say to you, well, you're going to find you're quite attractive and interesting. And I'd love to know we get the better. But one thing that I tell you, you could displease me, you can have to go to a different room, how long would you stay in that relationship?

Brooke Schnittman  36:05  
I would take myself to the other room.

Gabor Mate  36:09  
So here's the thing, the attachment relationship for young children is absolutely essential, not just for survival, but for healthy development. That's true, not only for human beings, but for all mammals, mammals develop Mother Bears know how to cuddle their babies, mother, cats, mother, rats, mother, elephants, dolphins, whales, wolves, the attachment relationship is essential for healthy child development for healthy brain development. without which the child is very anxious. Okay, that's the first point the importance of the attachment relationship. The second point to realize is that kids can only attach physically, if you and your spouse couldn't see each other for a week, it might not like it will not be the end of the world. Because you can still love each other and hold each other in your memory, nine yards. Your infant can't do that. You actually can do that. They can only attach physically, they have to hear you see you smell you, touch you, to attach with you. When you say to them, if you displease me, you're away from me, you're saying to them, I'm using against you the biggest fear that you have, which is the loss of me. And I'm using that to get you to comply with my expectations. So I'm going to threaten you with your worst nightmare.

Brooke Schnittman  37:24  
So what do we do? Do we leave the room then if they're misbehaving?

Gabor Mate  37:29  
Why would anybody have to leave the room? First of all misbehaving is an adult concept.

Brooke Schnittman  37:34  
Right? It's them doing what we want them to do.

Gabor Mate  37:38  
Yeah, or not doing what we want to do. So the child is just doing what they're doing. So let's see a two year old throws a tantrum. And by the way, when do we throw tantrums? I mean, I could do when I throw a tantrum

Brooke Schnittman  37:49  
when we're hungry, tired. Yeah, yeah.

Gabor Mate  37:53  
All that, yeah. frustrated about something. So if you're a good mother, you're going to frustrate your child, because we will come to you before dinner and says, Mom, I want a cookie and you guys say no cookie before dinner? If you're doing your job, I want a cookie. No, I said no. Then she throws a tantrum. Well, why shouldn't she? You've just frustrated her. A tantrum is a normal response to frustration. Yeah. Why should she have to leave the room? Because she gets because the nervous system gets enough Thursday, you know? Would you say to his boy, you're really upset that mommy will give you a cookie? Yeah. You really wish you could have a cookie before dinner? Yeah, you pick it up when you hold in his ill boy. It's hard to wait sometimes when we want something, isn't it? You know, that's how you deal with it.

Brooke Schnittman  38:40  
We identified what they're upset about.

Gabor Mate  38:43  
We're not permissive parenting, we're not indulging them. We're not going to give them the cookie. But we're still in let them making wrong for being upset about it right. Now. If it's more destructive behavior, like breaking plates or hitting their siblings. There's the issue of well, what's frustrating them so much? Because the aggression comes out of frustration? Right? When do we get frustrated when our needs aren't map? So that child is deeply frustrated about something. And our job is to figure out in the short term, that doesn't mean allow them to hit their siblings? No hitting your siblings. You must be very absurd right now. Come here.

Brooke Schnittman  39:20  
Yeah, that oppositional defiance is learned behavior. And that's really hard for people to actually take in.

Gabor Mate  39:28  
It's not even learned. But is it something else? First of all, this idea of Oppositional Defiant Disorder, is the stupid his diagnosis in the universe. It doesn't even exist. Now, not only does it not exist, even theoretically, it can't exist. Because let me ask you a question. If I had a broken foot would have been any less broken because I'm talking to you. If I had a cold or COVID virus, would I have any less cold or COVID? Because I'm talking to you Absolutely not. Okay. But if I wasn't talking to you could I oppose you? Now? In other words, our positionality depends on a relationship. It's not a disorder in the individual. It's a dynamic in the relationship. Why are we diagnosing the kid? Instead of looking at the relationship? Yeah, that's the first point. The second point is, Who are these kids that behave in those ways? I can take two things about them. Number one, the better our relationship was, the less likely you are to oppose me. He really trusted me, and in my guidance, and if I suggested something, you're much more likely to go along with it. And yes, he didn't trust me. While these kids were oppositional, they've lost their trust in the adult world. And that's not their fault. That's the function of this culture that makes it so difficult for kids to stay connected to their adults. That's the first point. The second point is, you can try this experiment with Rangers put up your two hands like this, with them together, and take your right hand is push as hard as you can with the right hand. And what is the left hand? It stays, that pushes back.

Brooke Schnittman  41:14  
Yeah. It's not being right.

Gabor Mate  41:17  
Yeah. So that's what in his book we call a condo, we'll call it a will is the automatic resistance to any sense of coercion. So this kids that we call opposition that find they don't have a disorder, they've lost their trust in the adult world. And they've been pushed on too much, or they push back. In other words, the issue now if I change the relationship, guess what? Their position on it disappears, it evaporates. So why are we diagnosing the kid? It's utter nonsense.

Brooke Schnittman  41:50  
Yeah. So because are we can rewire our brain? What would you say is I don't even know if it can happen. And I would love your thoughts on EMDR. But if someone has a troubled childhood, and their implicit memory is encoded in their brain, and we remove that implicit memory over time, or not be affected by it.

Gabor Mate  42:21  
It's the latter, you know, in this book, The Myth of normal in the first chapter, I talk about an incident of me arriving from a speaking trip in the States back to Canada and Vancouver. And my wife, Ray. This is like when I was young and stupid seven years ago,

Brooke Schnittman  42:36  
everything that you're explaining, you've experienced and no one's perfect.

Gabor Mate  42:41  
Not only did I still am, you know, so it's an ongoing thing, you know, so I arrived back from a speaking trip. And re my wife was an artist, who said that she'd pick me up at the airport. And I'm feeling really good. It's a good speaking trip and the next flight, and I arrived at the airport, and she texts me saying, I haven't have told me I'd be still want me to come. And I text back saying nevermind. And at the taxi home, and that come in the house, and I won't even look at her.

Brooke Schnittman  43:09  
Because she abandoned Do you in your mind, right?

Gabor Mate  43:12  
In my mind, this fact that she didn't abandon me. She's just a painter. And I've only known this for five decades. And so Emma, she's in the studio, the whole world disappears. That's the way of the artist. So in my implicit memory, as you say, there's a memory of my mother abandoning me, that's already an interpretation. She didn't actually abandon me. She gave me to a stranger in December 1944, when I was 11 months old, to save my life under the Nancy occupation. However, as an infant, how do I experience being given to a stranger, as a, as a client, you? I did, she doesn't love me. And I'm being abandoned. That implicit memory of that, then he doesn't show up at the airport, and clearly hadn't worked at the one by then yet on by being abandoned. And normally, I did see my mother five weeks later, I didn't even look at her for several days, she's with me. And which is what an infant does to protect themselves. The infant's brain says, You're so hurt when you abandoned, you will not make yourself vulnerable again. So that means in our relationship, when we have a bit of a fight, or I'm disappointed, my tendency is to withdraw,

Brooke Schnittman  44:24  
same, you dissociate and withdraw.

Gabor Mate  44:27  
Yeah, that's my automatic tendency. That's what I did in this case. Now. I was seven years ago. I worked it through.

Brooke Schnittman  44:35  
Now, that's the golden question. Well,

Gabor Mate  44:41  
first of all, by recognizing that my reaction is not to the present, but to the past. So these days when I have an intense reaction, I know it's not about the present. Most of the time. I mean, if somebody accosted under the gun, I'd have a strong reaction in the middle. It's But, but most of the time, when they have these intense flight or fight defensive reactions, I know, which is my nervous system I've been and then I give myself time to actually process that

Brooke Schnittman  45:13  
you remove yourself from the situation take time to breathe, not confront that their person until you process it.

Gabor Mate  45:22  
That would be a very healthy timeout, when you say, I need to settle myself ground myself, whatever I use with his deep breathing, or meditation or going for a walk in nature or listen to a piece of music or whatever it is, but I need to ground myself, that's a good time or they're not timing out to punish you, with a timeout to get myself grounded. That's a healthy timeout. You know, I love that. So that's one thing. The other thing, of course, is that, for the ADHD adult, they may think they have this fixed disease, but actually, the more stressed their lives is the more difficulty than paying attention. So ask yourself, how are you creating stress for yourself? Are you taking on too much? You know,

Brooke Schnittman  46:02  
I've written a book typically the answer is yes,

Gabor Mate  46:05  
absolutely. So I've written a book came out 20 years ago, called when the body says No, and it's about chronic illness, like autoimmune disease and so on. And what I'm saying is that, when you don't know how to say no, when you take on too much, or that there was expectations, other people's demands, your body will say no, in the form of illness. These are typically the people with autoimmune disease. 

Brooke Schnittman 
Oh, yeah. My (censored for privacy)

Gabor Mate
multiple sclerosis.  She got to read when the body says no, or that absolutely.

Brooke Schnittman  46:31  
She was getting psoriasis is hurt body from internal accident. She tried to everything every doctor said she has Lyme disease. Not she doesn't have Lyons disease. Yeah.

Gabor Mate  46:42  
What she has, is a personality that suppresses her on these automatically takes care of others. She's a people pleaser, she's probably way too nice for her own good. She doesn't get angry in a healthy way. She probably believes that she's responsible for the people feel, and she was never disappointed anybody. And that's why she's got autoimmune disease. It's not her fault, is how she was programmed as a child is so she survived her childhood. Not her fault. But she can turn it around. But anyway, the point is, my wife said to me, five years ago, buddy, you've written a book called when the body says no, no, you better way one called when the wife says no, because

Brooke Schnittman  47:20  
Oh, and like that.

Gabor Mate  47:24  
I'm not putting up with his work, all sassy. I like her. savvy, and she's sassy. And she, she calls me on my stuff. But when I do stretch myself, when I do take on too much, guess what your body might react, and my brain and my mind react. Literally the first thing

Brooke Schnittman  47:42  
when a client usually comes to me in coaching with ADHD, they're like, I just don't know how to manage my schedule. I can't get X, Y, and Z done. I'm like, Alright, so tell me what's on your schedule? Well, we're gonna write a book this week, I'm going to write a screenplay. I'm going to

Gabor Mate  48:01  
compose a symphony.

Brooke Schnittman  48:03  
And it's so common, that's what I'm hearing. And to me from what I've read in your book, it's that self esteem that comes from the content, Jin's self esteem. And once they are aware, and they identify with themselves, and they feel more competent, and they realize there's other people like them,

Gabor Mate  48:22  
I went through that when I was reading this book, The Myth of normal. This really is my magnum opus. And I wrote it for 10 years. And three years ago, when I was working on it, I started panicking. Because I collected 25,000 articles and file them and read all these books in all these interviews in the writing wasn't going well, and I start panicking. My blood pressure started going up. And this is me who was very healthy, basically. And I did something desperate, I decided to talk to a therapist, you know, now, you're eight. Know it is I'm just joking, because I'm the one because you are the one that's supposed to know everything you know, and

Brooke Schnittman  49:04  
others therapists need therapists, coaches need coaches.

Gabor Mate  49:07  
In response to what you said about your client who wants to write the book and so on. I realized what was upsetting me wasn't the book, it was my relationship to it. I had this implicit idea that if this book fails, then I'm a failure on your warrior. Now, once I made that separation, alright, this book, if it succeeds, great, if it doesn't, that's life. I was no panic anymore. Same with your client. Yeah, it's not. It's not how do I complete the book, right, the symphony and the screenplay. It's, why do I believe I have to do all that.

Brooke Schnittman  49:41  
Right. And it's so interesting, that connection to when you put so much pressure on yourself and you and you believe that you are a failure, if you don't finish it, then your executive function shuts down because of the emotional piece the emotional dysregulation so you literally will not finish it. Exactly. So what would you say? A some closing thoughts you would recommend for someone struggling, who identifies as having ADHD for success tip?

Gabor Mate  50:11  
Yeah, well first, recognize that there's nothing wrong with you that your symptoms related to ADHD are normal responses to abnormal or circumstances. Number one, number two, you cannot recreate your childhood. But you can treat yourself better as an adult and look at the stresses in your life. How well are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating? Well? Maybe looking after your body? Do you get exercise? Do you give your mind a break? Do you connect with nature? Do you deal with your stresses when you're upset? Are you able to ask for help and talk to somebody? You're not isolated? You don't have to be alone with this you can actually get help. This is a book and if you've seen it, but if you haven't, please get it you love it. It's called the boy the mole the fox in the horse?

Brooke Schnittman  50:59  
Oh no, I hadn't heard of it. Huge international

Gabor Mate  51:01  
bestseller by a British cartoonist and illustrated mostly it's beautiful drawings, you know, and the story of these four friends. You will love that your child will have it. The boy the mole the fox in the horse and the horse who was the wisest one of the four friends. He's asked, What's the most courageous thing you've ever said in the horses? Help?

Brooke Schnittman  51:24  
It's so hard for us ask for help.

Gabor Mate  51:27  
Yeah, yeah. And so ask for help. There's a lot we can do to the good news about the human brain. It's called what's called neuroplasticity, you can do new circuits even later on in life. But it takes some work. You know, it's if you want to if you want to benchpress 300 pounds, you don't even have been tomorrow, you're not gonna you don't do it by lift, trying to lift 300 pounds, you start by lifting the bar. Yes. And so you have to commit to yourself. If you're important enough, you'll put in the work. And don't just rely on some medication to fix you. The medication may or may not help your symptom, it may or may not cause side effects, if it helps with our side effects. Terrific. Congratulations. Take it when you need it. But it's not going to change who you are.

Brooke Schnittman  52:15  
They won't teach skills. 100%. Yeah, thank you so much for your time. And if people want to find you, where can they find you?

Gabor Mate  52:27  
It's impossible not to find me.

Brooke Schnittman  52:30  
Yeah, you just Google Gabor and your name pops up.

Gabor Mate  52:35  
Oh God by magic. There's a website, Doctor government.com. You can join my Instagram account, if you wish. Sign up for my email list, if you want. Dozens of my talks on YouTube enough to join anything or pay anything. There's my five books which I won't run through. But by the way, I am going to recommend for you and any pairs of young kids that they will hold on to your kids, which is not my work. But in this book scattered lines. You may recall the name Gordon Neufeld, he's a psychologist who accorded on this opposition ality hold on to your kids his his work that I helped him write. It's really an important parenting book, it's of the importance of maintaining the attachment relationship with your child. So the child doesn't get swallowed up in the peer group and appear culture. So that's what hold on to your kids.

Brooke Schnittman  53:18  
And I'll put those links in the show notes too, so people can access that. Sure. Thank you so much for your time. I know how valuable it is. And you really went into deep detail of ADHD, the brain parenting, so I appreciate you I appreciate your time. And thank you for helping our community and being unsuccessful with ADHD.

Gabor Mate  53:43  
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Brooke Schnittman  53:48  
The reason why host successful with ADHD and coach driven individuals with ADHD at 80 years old, is to help individuals understand themselves better and feel empowered. coming from my background working with students with disabilities and ADHD for over 17 years. I do believe that ADHD is genetic, and the symptoms can be exacerbated based on environmental circumstances. I also believe alcoholism and certain autoimmune diseases are both genetic and environmental. ADHD is complex. There's no doubt about that. There are many different experts that have their own theories. But when it comes down to it, I'm determined to find the path to get us answers even if that path is contrary to popular belief so that you don't have to search the internet to find them. I made it my mission to serve the ADHD population. And I plan on bringing on other ADHD experts that might contradict this episode. Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey and if you need it Any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD? Feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke. And remember, it's Brooke with any. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.

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