SuccessFULL With ADHD

ADHD Productivity That Actually Works with Dr. Ari Tuckman

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Season 1 • Episode 100

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Hey everyone! I’m so excited to share this conversation with you because today I got to sit down with someone I deeply admire in the ADHD world—Dr. Ari Tuckman. If you’ve ever searched for practical, no-BS ADHD productivity tips, chances are you’ve landed on Ari’s work. He’s a clinical psychologist, international presenter, and leading voice in the ADHD space, known for bridging the gap between knowing what to do and actually doing it. He’s also the author of five books, including his newest, The ADHD Productivity Manual.

Ari and I dive into what makes productivity so challenging for ADHD brains, why willpower isn’t the answer (and never was), and how we can move from self-blame to strategies that actually stick. We get real about over-scheduling, executive function, people-pleasing, gender roles, and how to stop promising things you can’t deliver. This one’s jam-packed with relatable stories and powerful insights that’ll help you rethink what success looks like with ADHD.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] - Ari on why willpower alone doesn’t cut it
 [1:50] - Introducing Ari and what makes his approach to ADHD so relatable
 [3:11] - Why “just try harder” doesn’t work for productivity
 [5:27] - The problem with “top 5 hacks” and the danger of flashy solutions
 [6:32] - A wild story about $50k coaching guarantees and why they’re BS
 [8:53] - How willpower fails and why smarter setups matter more
 [10:27] - Real-life ADHD examples, from brushing teeth to bedtime
 [12:35] - The power of playful motivation and visual cues
 [14:16] - Avoidance goals vs. approach goals—how both play a role
 [17:07] - Redefining what a “good life” with ADHD really looks like
 [20:35] - Managing expectations when you already feel like a failure
 [23:19] - Learning to say no and avoiding the overpromise trap
 [26:20] - The cost of overextending, especially for women with ADHD
 [29:25] - Acknowledging impact without over-apologizing
 [31:44] - Why ADHD strategies fizzle out and how to keep them fresh
 [33:23] - Brooke’s planner win and the myth of “nothing ever works”
 [36:16] - Planning for setbacks and building flexible systems
 [37:26] - Cutting out what no longer serves you and managing guilt
 [39:22] - Brooke’s 30-day rule for shiny new things
 [40:11] - Final takeaway: dig deeper to understand what really went wrong

 

Links & Resources

Ari Tuckman’s books and info: adultadhdbook.com

Thank you for tuning into "SuccessFULL with ADHD." If this episode has impacted you, remember to rate, follow, share, and review our podcast. Your support helps us reach and help more individuals navigating their journeys with ADHD.

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Ari Tuckman:

You emphasize that willpower is never enough. Willpower is a nice concept. Just try harder. I'm all in favor of, like, using your willpower, but like, let's all be honest, if it was easy as willpower, ADHD wouldn't exist. Diets wouldn't exist. You know, none of us would have to go to the dentist because we'd be brushing our teeth and flossing four times a day. And so like this thing of relying on willpower, it either shows a lack of understanding of just in general human nature, but definitely about ADHD, right? That it's not just about trying harder or caring more. Rather, it's about making smarter choices beforehand. If you're an alcoholic, don't go to the bar. If Doritos call to you, don't buy 'em. You know the better strategies are the ones that make it easier to do the right thing at the right time and place. Don't rely on your willpower to do more than it can do.

Brooke Schnittman:

Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman. Let's get started. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of successful with ADHD, where we talk real life with real ADHD, and I'm your host, Brooke ADHD, coach, business owner and fellow human trying to get through the week with a little grace, little humor and some serious strategy. So today I'm thrilled to introduce someone who has been a rock star in the ADHD world for years. Dr, Ari Tuchman, so if you've ever Googled anything about ADHD productivity, you've probably stumbled across his name, and for a good reason. So Ari is a psychologist and author and a speaker who's been helping ADHD adults understand themselves better and get things done for over 25 years. Do I have that

Ari Tuckman:

correct? Yeah, yeah. Time moves.

Brooke Schnittman:

Time moves. And for us, ADHD ers, it happens in ways that we never imagined. And Ari is the author of several books, including one that we're going to be talking about and diving into today, ADHD productivity manual. So what I love so far about Ari's book is that it's smart, evidence based, and totally down to earth, and he gets what it means to live with ADHD in the real world, with dishes in the sink, 47 open browser tabs, and your brain's saying, let's just check one more thing first. So today, we're diving into why productivity is so tricky with ADHD, what really gets in our way, and how we can bridge the gap between knowing what to do and actually doing it. So whether you're walking the dog, folding laundry or procrastinating on that email you've been with voiding This one's for you. So Ari, welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here.

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, it's great to be here. I'm glad to be talking about this stuff,

Brooke Schnittman:

absolutely. So I first met Ari, think, five years ago or six years ago, at the ADHD conference, and I was always impressed by your talks, and just like your general personality, it's very authentic, humble. You always have something new and exciting to talk about at the conferences. So really looking forward to this talk.

Ari Tuckman:

Good, yeah, I always love the conference. It's so great, awesome people. Lots of good stuff going on. So, yeah, big fan,

Brooke Schnittman:

yeah. So you say in your book, it's not another ADHD Brook. So why do you think people are still searching for that one thing when it comes to ADHD productivity with all these other ADHD productivity

Ari Tuckman:

books? Yeah. I mean, I think the hard truth of it is like productivity is complicated, you know, like there are so many things that affect whether you actually get something done or if you get kind of stuck along the way. And you know, some of it's just sort of human imperfection and fallibility that anybody might struggle with. But ADHD definitely adds a few of its own wrinkles. And, you know, I mean, really, what I do in real life is I sit in my office, I meet with clients that I've been, you know, focused on, mostly adults, with ADHD for more than 25 years, I've had tons and tons of conversations about getting things done, or probably more about not getting things done. And you know, it's taught me a lot about all the different things that can get in the way. And, you know, so on the one hand, I think that's good news, because it means if you felt frustrated about why can't I figure this out? God damn it, right? This is why, right? Because it isn't easy, you know. So don't beat yourself up on it, but also it helps us begin to narrow down. Like, what exactly in this situation is, is getting stuck, you know, like, where am I? What's happening? What do I need to do different? Because, like, the better you understand what the problem is, the more effective you can be in picking the right solution.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, if you just say I have trouble with organization or I have trouble with time management, well, what part of time management and what's getting in the way of your time management? Specifically, I love that, yes, and that's really where you know, coaching comes in and where your services come in to ask those specific questions as well, because it's not a one size fits all solution.

Ari Tuckman:

Now, it isn't, it isn't. And, you know, this is also why I don't know, I have a little bit of a pet peeve, you know, some of this stuff, like, you know, the top five hacks that will, you know, I don't know what they're gonna change your life, but, yeah, but they will, whatever it is they're going to do, they're not going to do, you know. So, like, anything that says, like, transformational, or life changing or revolutionary, like, it isn't it just isn't, you know, like, there's very little in life that's transformational, but you know, a little bit better. Is not a great, sexy sales pitch on a it's not going to, you know, that post isn't going to explode. So, yes, you know, but that's fine. I mean, it's not about the flash, it's about actually doing the things that are really going to be helpful, and knowing yourself well, and learning from the people who've come before you, and figuring out, like, what are the strategies that are really going to make the difference for you? You know, it's

Brooke Schnittman:

funny when you were saying transformational, life changing, you know, those being sexy, just really funny. Detour. Here I was having a discovery call the other day with a client, and

Ari Tuckman:

I dropped the price. And she goes, Oh, that's it. I said, What

Brooke Schnittman:

do you mean? That's it. She goes, I just met with someone before you who has a coaching program for six weeks, and it's three sessions a week for three hours, so it's total of 18 hours, and my time, blindness and procrastination will be gone forever.

Ari Tuckman:

So that is a lot like

Brooke Schnittman:

guaranteed 50 grand.

Ari Tuckman:

The only thing I can guarantee you is you're not getting your money back like that is that is, like, an irresponsible fraud. Like, I'm just going to really kind of call bullshit here, like, first of all, absolutely no way. There's no There's 100% no possibility that that is going to be as effective. Like, guaranteed, absolutely not, never going to happen. So this person is either an absolute liar and and has no conscience, or they're a fool who doesn't understand that. Forget ADHD, just any human behavior I would never guarantee anything right, like, so It's patently ridiculous, but to charge$50,000 is absolutely fraudulent. Like that is a complete scam. And like, 100% that's the stuff that makes me crazy, because the thing is, like, nobody needs more failures, nobody needs another thing to feel terrible about. I just sort of feel like, in general, anyone who forces you to sign up for these big fat packages, like, already that's a red flag. Like, if you're good at what you do, people will continue to come. You don't need to force them to prepay for things that they're probably not going to use all of

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, thank you. And that's what really gives coaching and the industry such a bad name. I don't care if it's 50 grand, if it's a million dollars or $1 right? 50 grand, ridiculous, but yeah, if you promise that you're gonna cure procrastination. Like, I don't even think Tony Robbins has done that as non ADHD human right like, That's just absurd. It's ridiculous. Red flag, red flag, or fake. So if you are meeting with someone and they say that, run

Ari Tuckman:

Yes, God.

Brooke Schnittman:

So you emphasize that willpower is never enough. How do you see this play out in your own life or with your clients.

Ari Tuckman:

Will Power is a nice concept. You know, I'm all in favor of, like, using your willpower, but like, let's all be honest, if, if it was easy as willpower, ADHD wouldn't exist. Diets wouldn't exist, right? Every gym would be bursting at the seams with everybody in there. You know, none of us would have to go to the dentist, because we'd be brushing our teeth and flossing four times a day. And you know, nobody's doing that. So like this thing of relying on willpower, it either shows a lack of understanding of just in general human nature, but definitely about ADHD, right? That is not just about trying harder or caring more. Rather, it's about kind of, I don't know, it's about making smarter choices beforehand. I mean, it's kind of like the classic example, right? If, if you're an alcoholic, don't go to the bar, right? If you are in the bar, you're a million times more likely to drink. Or, if. Doritos are just they call to you, right? Like, don't buy them. Like, don't even walk down that aisle in the supermarket, right? Like, don't rely on your willpower to do more than it can do. So, you know, the better strategies are the ones that make it easier to do the right thing at the right time and place that we set it up beforehand, rather than hoping that somehow things are going to work out in the moment.

Brooke Schnittman:

Can you give me some examples of how someone like an alcoholic, or, you know, someone with ADHD who's struggling with brushing their teeth? How do you set that up beforehand for success,

Ari Tuckman:

yeah. So, you know, if we take the brushing your teeth example, sometimes it's just simple things, but it's like, where is your toothbrush, right? And you know, if you have, like, a partner who's like, Oh no, the you know, we the counter is too crowded, we need to put things away. I mean, maybe. But also, if you put it away, you might as well throw it away, because I won't remember to do it. So, you know, honey, those your two options. What do we want to do here, right? So maybe there's a bit of, like, I need to put it there. Maybe it's even silly things, like, I need to find a toothpaste I really, like, you know, because maybe that little bit of a or, like, I kind of don't like this toothpaste, it's just going to make you slightly less likely to want to do it. It may also be a thing of, maybe we need to rewind the tape, like, when are you actually going up to bed? If you're going up too late, it's less likely that you're going to brush your teeth or do all the extra things. So maybe that's really where this story begins. Or maybe it's sort of a thing of, every time you don't feel like brushing your teeth to sort of remind yourself, sort of hold in mind vividly, like, so what does it feel like in the dentist chair when they're like, this is just going to hurt a little, you know, and then, you know, you get hit with a shot, and then they're like, you know, kind of grinding away and you're like, I don't like that, right? So, like, really holding in mind, that is what I'm doing here. Okay, I'm going to brush my teeth. But even things like, and this is sort of a thing I've been recommending, of like, just making a stupid bet, you know. So something like, you know, probably with your partner, but, or it could be one of your kids or something, but, like, if I brush my teeth every day, then some silly thing, if I don't brush my teeth every day, then this thing instead, right? Yeah, and

Brooke Schnittman:

playful with money, yeah, yeah,

Ari Tuckman:

kind of it just kind of playful, stupid, silly fun, you know, nothing like, you know, you have to get, like, a tattoo on your face or anything, but like, you know, some sort of a something that, just like, cranks up a little bit more motivation on it.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, you know, this is interesting. So first you mentioned, like, you know, reducing the friction, right? So, you know, you talk about object permanence and how we have a hard time with ADHD, with that. So, right? You don't have the toothbrush on your counter, you're gonna forget about it, right? So it doesn't exist, right? Yeah, and then the making it fun and more encouraging with toothpaste that you actually like. Like if you were to do tooth brushing with a toddler, I do that with my three year old. She loves the strawberry flavor toothpaste, and she actually enjoys eating it, too. But you know what? It's safe in small doses,

Unknown:

so we're gonna go with it right when.

Brooke Schnittman:

But then you also talk about these avoidance goals, right? What is the worst like? What will happen if you don't right? And I know you're, you know, in psychology, right? So we talk about avoidance goals and goals that motivate us as well. And so many people out there are like, Oh, no, you shouldn't have these avoidance goals, because that's not going to give you long term solutions. But here you are, and I agree with you. It's like, well, what will happen if you don't do that? You might lose your tooth and you might have more drilling, and you might have to spend 1000s of dollars in the process of doing that. So, yeah, talk to me a little bit if, since you went there about avoidance goals and how you use that with your clients.

Ari Tuckman:

And I, and I think it's a really good point, because, and this is definitely something I sort of, I bang on this drum a lot, and definitely in the new book, but also elsewhere that you know. The problem if you're not managing your ADHD Well, or just whatever, you're not managing your life Well, somehow too much of life becomes about avoiding negative outcomes, right? Which is motivating to a point. But the problem is, avoiding negative outcomes only takes you from negative to zero. It doesn't actually add positive it doesn't make life better, which, again, like it is somewhat motivating, but it's not like super motivating. You know, you're not bringing your very best when it's just about. Kind of, you know, dodging the bullet. So, you know, when it comes to managing your ADHD or productivity in general, it's really about like, what does a good life look like? What is a meaningful, interesting, satisfying life look like to me, not perfect, but like, what is a good life to me at this sort of moment in my life, you know. And from there kind of working backwards, you know. So I don't like getting cavities filled like it. It's motivating, but it is, like you said, it's a negative. It's avoiding the negative. Some positives on this might be something like I like it when I get into bed knowing I brush my teeth like I feel good about myself for having done this thing, and even if nobody else knows I know like to me, this is something that's important, yeah? Or, you know, maybe I don't know if you kind of kiss your spouse Good night, that you're gonna get a more positive response rather than negative. Maybe that's part of the motivation or,

Brooke Schnittman:

I mean, it's how long you've been with them.

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But, like, there's definitely a lot of things in life that are that feel just too much about avoiding the negative. So sometimes you need to stretch a bit, or be a little bit more sort of intangible about what is it that's positive? How am I making my life better? How am I using my own agency to make choices here?

Brooke Schnittman:

Love that. So, yeah, it's a mixture. It's not like an all or nothing, right? Like we tend to go towards with ADHD. It's okay. Let's do some motivation. And sometimes we do need some avoidance, and you know, goals in there as well when we can't find the motivation. So you mentioned that in order to have a good life, right, we want to have a good life, not just a productive one, but what would you say a good life for someone with ADHD look like?

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah. I mean, obviously it depends. It all depends on the individual, right? Like for you, what does a meaningful life look like? But I think what I would say, in general, and again, like I beat on this drum a lot, is absolutely there are benefits to being more on top of your ADHD and being more effective and being more efficient at getting things done right. Like there's absolutely tangible benefits that come from that. And also, there comes a point where maybe productive is productive enough you know that you can work 20 hours a day, and boy, are you productive, I guess, although at some point you know that line.

Brooke Schnittman:

But, yeah, diminishing returns, but okay, yeah,

Ari Tuckman:

exactly. But is that the life you want to live? Right? So part of this is to think about like, how productive do I really want to be? Like, what do I get from it? What is important to me? Everything has a cost. You know, if I do this, I'm not doing other things. So, you know, at this moment in my life, what am I trying to do here? So some of this is sort of getting clear within ourselves about it. Some of it also is, you know, how do I handle this in terms of other people's expectations for me? You know, so obviously a romantic partner, family members are going to have opinions about what you do, co workers and bosses and maybe neighbors and friends and, you know, everybody's got an opinion. Opinions are easy, but how much are they going to vote on what you do, you know, how much is their happiness or unhappiness your job to fix? You know, like, absolutely be generous. Be a good person. Do your share, be a team player, but at some point, like, again, maybe this is as good as it needs to be, you know, and being able to be okay with other people having a different opinion. That's a lot easier to do if, in general, you feel like you're doing pretty good. If you feel like you're messing up too much and people are mad at you too much, and you owe people like you can't it becomes another failure, not another place of like I'm being assertive and standing up for myself here. It's

Brooke Schnittman:

a good point. So I am a family of five ADHD ers. My husband has severity. She I have ADHD, my two stepsons have ADHD, my three year old toddler isn't diagnosed, but extremely hyperactive. And we get all we're, yeah, she's, you know, it she's gonna have ADHD. Let's just call it what it is. But I mean, her teacher at daycare says she's very good at climbing and running and but her fine motor skills aren't as good. I'm like, yup, yup, yup, right. Anywho with ADHD, we all know that, like we have received so many negative. Messages, and we do have that rejection sensitivity, and we do feel like a failure so often. So when you say, you know it depends on the situation. Like, if someone isn't agreeing with the time that you allocate a partner or boss, and you already feel like a failure, you're probably going to feel like a failure. So like, how do you get out get out of that shame spiral of, okay, they don't agree with me. I've probably let myself and others down plenty of times. That's the story I tell myself. Now, what?

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, and the thing is, it's not just a story you tell yourself, it's also a story other people tell you, yep, you know, you didn't invent that story yourself. Um, yeah, you know, especially if you've lived many years undiagnosed, untreated, not managing it well. So, so this question becomes much more sort of messy and complicated. There's much more sort of the shadow of history here. I'm not going to say it's a quick and easy decision, but it's, I think it's part of the process of really, sort of understanding ADHD and where you fit in the world, and how do you want to be in your various relationships, which I think is a thing we all you know, need to sort of think about from time to time. So it's a thing of like, figuring out, like, what are reasonable expectations? You know, what is reasonable for me to expect to myself, What feels worth it, what doesn't definitely, there's gender, you know, factors into this as well, in terms of, you know, what people expect of you, and what's okay to be an assertive on or not, I think there's also an element I kind of have this line, you know? I don't want to set you up for disappointment and me up for failure, you know. So it's sort of like, don't agree to things that are probably not going to work out. That's so good because there's the hope of, like, No, you can, you should be able to do this. So just do it. And you're like, oh, okay, I guess I'll try. And then, of course, it doesn't work out, you know.

Brooke Schnittman:

And then over promise and under deliver? Yeah, yeah,

Ari Tuckman:

this was doomed from the beginning. Neither of us should have believed this. So it's better to disappoint somebody earlier and just say, like, look, I I'm not gonna be able to get you that by Thursday. Like, I'm just telling you now, but that means facing their disappointment in the moment, rather than fingers crossed, hoping it's going to work out, right? Somehow, pull it off Wednesday night. Somehow it's going to the time will matter. I'll discover the 25th hour. But like that occasional reinforcement where it does sort of work out, it does then sort of justify that, like, okay, I guess, you know, let me see what I can do. But there's also an element. I mean, apart from the like, being able to feel comfortable disappointing someone in the moment, there's also the whole thing of, like, do you even know what you need to do? Do you have any idea what Wednesday looks like? You know, because if you're like, let me think for a sec, no, I don't have anything, right? And then you get to Wednesday, you're like, oh, turns out I have 10 things. How about that? You know, would have been helpful to have that in my schedule. So, you know, like there's that part of it too, of actually having, in general, a good enough schedule. In general, a good enough to do list or whatever. So you even can make that informed guess about what Wednesday holds.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yes, yes. So a lot of work ahead of time, being proactive, getting the time management down, working with someone so you can get that system down. Then you have to have the metacognition and the forethought to be like, okay, yes, no, maybe. And really, no or Okay, I'm going to check my schedule and actually rely on my schedule and then come back to the person and tell them what's up. Yeah, sounds like a lot of executive functions. It is. It

Ari Tuckman:

definitely is, you know. And some of it, you know. And it might also be a thing of like, Look, I can't give you an answer in this moment right now, you know. Let me check some things and I'll get back to you. But even there, there's, like, there's a nuance of, let me check and get back to you, right? Or, let me check, does that mean I call you? Does that mean you call me if I don't call you? Does that mean I forgot to call you? Does that mean I'm not going to do it or, you know? So, like, if you leave that open, it can set up sort of frustration disappoint, where it's like, god damn it. She was supposed to call me, and you're like, Oh, I guess I never heard from him. So I guess we're not, I guess we're not doing it, you know. So, like, does everybody actually have the same expectation of what's going to happen? Sure, and who owes it to who? Right, if you're my boss, I probably owe it to you, right? Like, it's probably my job to come to you say, hey, Brooke, so yeah, turns out I can't do it. But if we're just friends, or we're coworkers, who are equals, or, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know, who owes. To who, right? Who's doing? Who? A favor here?

Brooke Schnittman:

I guess it's a token economy, right? I know there's a lot of people out there that think, Okay, well, fair is even. What is even? I don't know, but if you have more like chips, right, or cookies in the jar from this person, you're more likely to be the one who's going to try to be more responsible and hold the bag. In some areas, it's very nuanced. Like you said,

Ari Tuckman:

yeah, yeah. I mean, it's kind of like social capital, you know, yeah. Like, do I owe you, or do you owe me? Like, obviously you want to be sort of aware of this, like people are finally aware of fairness or lack thereof, you know. So like you do want to pay attention to who owes who, and making it up to people, if you need to, and whatever. But there's definitely a thing that can happen. And again, this is probably a bit more true for for women than men, but kind of this thing of like feeling like you're always behind, like you always owe people, and therefore being willing to tolerate some kind of crappy behavior or some snarky attitude or whatever, more than you Should.

Brooke Schnittman:

That's a really good topic. I'm glad you went there, because it's not only an ADHD thing. You know, being the woman in a family, in a household, I have caught myself over and over, over, extending myself, and I feel like even when my energy tank is slightly like it has some gas in it. I'm like, oh, yeah, I could do that extra thing. Sure. Yes, I have ADHD. But every, almost every single client I deal with, or just people in general, my friends who are women who don't have ADHD, like, we are over extenders. We are over accommodators. What is that about us? What makes us that way?

Ari Tuckman:

I think it's just that intersection of being raised as a girl, and you know what is expected of you, and you know in the sense that like women are still the kind of caretaker and coordinator of the family. So I think some of it is that, and I think some of it is that thing of feeling like you're always sort of a bit behind, where there's that worry of like, I don't know if they like me. If I don't do this, they won't like me. So, you know, there's always that kind of like, I don't know, skirting disaster kind of thing, or skirting rejection, you know. So one way to protect yourself from it, which is true, is to overdo, right? Make sure that you do enough to balance the scales, and then people will keep you around. Yeah, wow.

Brooke Schnittman:

So how would you say then you would recommend, in the book or in some of the work that you do, women with ADHD, drop the people pleasing, or slow it down a little bit,

Ari Tuckman:

yeah, yeah. Or just balance it out. I think there's a lot that goes into it. I think the first thing is to just sort of recognize that you're doing it, and to recognize that, like, I don't know, just sort of deserving good treatment is just a basic idea, like, it doesn't need to be revolutionary. It's just sort of a thing, like, you deserve to be treated well, like just cuz. So I think some of it is that, and that's kind of easy to say and all you know, but I think some of it is that. I think it's, you know, a matter of, in some ways, genuinely doing a better job. So there's fewer of those moments where you're like, oh, man, I really did screw that up. You know, that's not inaccurate. Like, that's true, like I showed up late and people were inconvenienced and they were mad about it, like, that is an accurate statement of facts. So less of those moments. But I think also, because nobody's going to be perfect, part of it also is kind of helping them better understand what it means. Speaking simplistically, it's kind of like the thing of like, Look, I know I'm late. It's not because I don't care. And I promise you, I'm, like, very aware of your time. I just suck at being on time, like I've always struggled, believe it or not, this is actually me working really hard at it, I promise you this is indeed important to me, so don't, don't read anything into it.

Brooke Schnittman:

And it's also acknowledging the other person's feelings. Like, I know you're probably, yeah, you're not, you're not apologizing, but you're acknowledging like, I know this is probably going to impact you, and I just want to get in front of it and recognize that it's our friendships important to me. I like that, yeah, exactly. And I appreciate you putting up with it or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Ari Tuckman:

And maybe even right beforehand, like when it gets set up, to say, like, I think I can be there by three. But here's the thing, don't leave until I like, I'm going to send you a text when. In the car. Like, don't leave until I do. I love that. Address it beforehand. You know, some making it up to people I think is fine, you know. Like, I know I was late, let me get you a coffee. Like, that's fine, right? Some sort of token gift that, like, balances, the scales fine. Like, that's that's socially appropriate, but don't overdo it, you know, like, don't buy him a lobster because you were late. Don't over apologize, or you're apologizing too much, because then it feels weird to the other person, and then they they feel a responsibility to make you feel better about the thing that you messed up that affected them. So it's like, okay, wait a second. First. I had to sit here for 35 minutes. Now I need to, like, bend over backwards to make you not feel so bad about it. Like, that's a double lose, you know? So, like,

Brooke Schnittman:

that's a good one, you know, you don't think about that when you're the apologizer. You think that it's just, I don't know what you feel, but I know when I've apologized, it's because I genuinely felt bad, but I didn't know that I was putting that on the other person as well. So it double whammy.

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of, it's the right amount of apology. Too little apology is bad. Too much is bad. Just right is great, right? So it's like showing genuinely. I get it. I understand how I affected you, but it's not sort of going on and on about it, you know, because that's when it feels like it becomes the other person's emotional work to take care of you.

Brooke Schnittman:

That makes a lot of sense. And there were so many thoughts and feelings while you were talking, and I wanted to say so many things, but why do you think so many ADHD friendly strategies work the first few times and then fizzle out.

Ari Tuckman:

Sure, yeah, because everything's interesting once you know. So some of it, I think, is that like and genuinely novelty is helpful like it is, and that's fine. It just means kind of recognizing that, you know, the hard part is not using the strategy the first time. The hard part is using it the fifth time. Yeah, so maybe what it means is this wasn't actually that great a strategy to begin with. You know, it was a three times good strategy, but not a ever after good strategy, you know?

Brooke Schnittman:

So, yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting that you say that. So I know that urgency, novelty, challenge, interests, all are things that hold true for an ADHD, but I'm glad that you said that, because everyone, all the influencers out there, and all the memes out there, is like, Oh, just buy another planner or whatever, right? But I have to promise you that I've been using the same planner for five years, and it's worked for me every week, and I have ADHD, right? I don't want a prize. I don't want to be recognized for this, but I think I figured out a way for it to work with my brain. And going back to the avoidance piece, I know if I don't use it, I'm going to be stressed, anxious, I'm going to start missing appointments. I'm going to start double booking, so it is possible for everyone listening out there. I just want to say it that you can stick to a system for longer than four weeks, or a plan, yeah,

Ari Tuckman:

exactly, exactly. I mean, some of it is sort of, it's, it's really sort of committing to it and saying this is important. I really need to put in the effort. And absolutely, there are going to be times where I'm tempted not to, where am I going to start to fall off the tracks. Like, let's, let's think about this before I even get there, right? Like, what are the likely scenarios where I may not do the thing?

Brooke Schnittman:

Good point, go on vacation.

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, yeah. Like, how, what do I tell myself, right? So if we take your planner thing you know where you're, like, running late on a client appointment, you're like, okay, cool. I'll see you next Tuesday at three. But then you're like, I don't have time right now, or I'll write it down later. Like, no that right there. That is where I get myself into trouble. So like, I'm gonna force myself to take it two seconds and I'm writing it in now, or other stuff of I mean, it's that kind of classic thing, right? You don't use your planner for a day, and you're like, Well, there it is. It's hopeless. I'm not meant for planners, you know. And they like, you didn't, don't use it again, right? So kind of being black and white about it versus recognizing, yeah, I'm not going to be 100% about it, but that's fine. I just need to use it more than

Brooke Schnittman:

not, right? Getting rid of that rigid thinking,

Ari Tuckman:

yeah, yeah. And getting rid of that, like, well, I've tried everything. Nothing works. Everything works three times and then never again. So, you know, just sort of resigning yourself to it, but also maybe kind of trying to figure out, like, okay, so when I use it, why do I keep using it? You know what? Keeps me engaged in doing it, especially when I don't really feel like it. How do I sort of talk myself into how do I set myself up, versus the times where I fall off of it? Why? What happens there? You know, like, what does this teach me? How do I understand this? So, you know, and we can take anything, but we use a planner example, right? Having your day overbooked and scrambling from one thing to the next is a good way to not take the time to say, Hold on a second. Let me look at my schedule. Yes, for certain things, depending on what you're doing at a time, maybe you need not a paper planner, but you also need to set an alarm on your phone. Or maybe there's just certain things you don't do at certain times, you know. So I don't know if you need to leave in 10 minutes, maybe, like, jumping into some like, awesome YouTube channel, or whatever, like, maybe this isn't the thing to do right now, you know. So it's sort of this other stuff that goes around it, which is going to make it a little bit more likely or a little bit less likely. And just all I always think about, kind of, how do you tip the odds a little bit rather than guarantee, rather than 100% rather than always gonna work? You know, because life isn't that simple. But like, what are the little things I can do to make this a little bit more likely?

Brooke Schnittman:

I like that. So you have that backup plan, and you have the again, the foresight to know like this isn't going to work 100% of the time. So how can we plan for those challenges ahead of time and at the same time, how can we have metacognition, where we actually do have a moment to reflect on what's working and what's not? And you mentioned the over scheduling thing. It goes back to that negative messaging that so many of these high achieving ADHD ers have, where they think they have to be over scheduled or they're not successful. And I really believe, and you can prove me wrong on this, that in order to be successful with ADHD. If you want balance, not you know you want to be an inventor, and all you want to do is invent, right? And that's all you're going to do, right? But in order to be successful, balance, knock yourself out. That's not for me. But in order to have balance, you have to cut things out, and you have to have boundaries, and you have to under schedule from the over scheduling that you've already committed to.

Ari Tuckman:

Yeah, no, I'm gonna agree with you on this that you know, being productive as much as it's about what are the things I am gonna do and how do I do them better? There's also a big piece of this, which is and what am I not doing, right? Still only 24 hours. So what am I not doing? Or what originally was a pretty good idea, but other things have happened, and it just, you know, other things took precedence, or maybe stupid things took precedence. But here we are, right, and at this moment it it isn't the thing to do, you know. So knowing how to sort of cut things loose, knowing how to let things go, knowing how to not be the eternal optimist, you know, like, oh, I can't take that off my to do list. I might get to it right. Or, like, I was going to do something with this. I have to keep it like, maybe okay to let it go. Also, but also, no, so, like, that's part of it too. And it's not just the sort of guilt of every time you look at it, it's a little knife in your heart, but it's also kind of cognitively, it's distracting, you know, like it's harder to think about this stuff that's actually worth doing when there's all this other crap that kind of gets in the way. And just, it's kind of like, Oh, I forgot about that because I was on page three of my to do list, and I never look at that

Brooke Schnittman:

all the shiny new things I try, I try, doesn't always work, but I try to put it on a 30 day list, like, let me just sit on this thing for 30 days, then come back to it, Then talk to someone I trust maybe my assistant, then look at my schedule and see where I'm going to fit it in. So if alternative, right? If you have that shiny new thing, and you put it on your list and you're like, Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to wait those 30 days, and it keeps rolling over, maybe that shiny new thing isn't as pressing as we thought it was going to

Ari Tuckman:

be, yeah, and that, I think it's a great idea. I mean, it's kind of like, has having an aspirational to do list, as opposed to, like, your active working list, like, here's stuff I'm actually doing today, versus it's like, you know, the Netflix queue of, like, I would someday like to do this great, you know, but it doesn't need to be mixed in there with like, you know, finished sorting receipts for taxes or something

Brooke Schnittman:

exactly, exactly. Okay, so I know we're coming up to an end here. So what would you say? Ari, one thing that you would like to leave the audience with, who's listening? Thing that is just revolutionary life changing that they have to do, they have to think about right?

Ari Tuckman:

I think what I would say is take the time to to really sort of debrief and think about what happened, right? If something did work, why did it work? And if it didn't work, why didn't it work? But to go beyond the first obvious answers, right? Because those are easy, like, you can whip those out, like they're well worn, you know, the deal. But like, really, really, what else was going on there? Like, what sort of contributed, I kind of sometimes say, like, what are the first dominoes, you know. So, like, we gave the example, like the brushing your teeth example, if you crawl up to bed too late, you're less likely to brush your teeth. So, like, it's really about getting up there earlier. But, okay, well, but why didn't you get up there earlier? Well, I didn't do things earlier in the day, sort of zooming them at night. Okay, so it's not about the night. It's about the day. What happened during the day that you weren't getting done, the things you needed to do, right? So, like, sometimes we need to kind of go back a few extra steps to figure out, like, what are the better points of intervention? Kind of like, back to that sort of alcoholic at the bar, right? It's not. The interesting part of the conversation is not so, man, tell me what happened when your ass was on the bar stool, right? Like, tell me, how did you even get there in the first place? How did you think that this was going to be a good idea? What happened before that and what happened before that? One happened? Like, because that's really where the story begins. So it's, it's the same thing with ADHD. It's the same thing with any human facing temptation and distraction in the world. You know, sometimes we need to kind of rewind a little bit more to figure out what some of those other possibly more powerful points of intervention are. I

Brooke Schnittman:

like that. Thank you, Ari, for being on and sharing some amazing strategies from your book and just, you know, getting into some life hacks and general conversation about women and goals and ADHD versus neurotypicals. I know we can talk for hours. We haven't even got into half of the questions I was going to ask you. But where can someone find you if they're looking for more information or they want to find your book? Find your book,

Ari Tuckman:

sure. So best place is adult ADHD book.com that's my website. I've got information on all my books, including the new ADHD productivity manual.

Brooke Schnittman:

So good. What a great domain name. Kudos to you, adhd.com he took it, guys, you can't take that. I love it, all right. Well, Ari, thanks again for your time, and we'll talk soon. Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us@coachingwithbrooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with Vinny. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.

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