SuccessFULL With ADHD

The ADHD Identity Model: Why Diagnosis Alone Isn’t Enough with Dr. Marcy Caldwell

• Brooke Schnittman MA, PCC, BCC • Season 1 • Episode 101

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In today’s episode, I’m diving into identity work with the incredible Dr. Marcy Caldwell, and I promise, this conversation will shift how you see yourself and your ADHD. We’re not just talking about symptoms or strategies—we’re unpacking the emotional and psychological process behind how we relate to our diagnosis over time. Marcy shares her groundbreaking five-stage ADHD identity model that truly spoke to me, and I know it’ll speak to you too. We talk about everything from shame and self-acceptance to the stages we cycle through post-diagnosis—and why some of us get stuck.

Dr. Marcy Caldwell is a psychologist, writer, illustrator, and proud wife and mother in a family full of ADHD. With over twenty years of experience, she is a passionate advocate for those with neurodiverse brains, focusing on helping craft systems and environments that nurture unique strengths. As the Founder and Director of the Center for ADHD, one of the nation’s leading ADHD clinics, Dr. Marcy is committed to making a difference in the lives of those impacted by neurodiversity. She also established the blog ADDept.org and the digital program Meltdown to Mastery to bring accessible, science-backed information and strategies to adults with ADHD who might otherwise be unable to access services. 

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:50] - Welcoming Dr. Marcy Caldwell and diving into her background
[2:20] - What identity work really means for people with ADHD
[4:47] - Why ADHD treatment often misses this huge piece
[7:19] - The five-stage ADHD identity model: an overview
[9:51] - Stage 2: Exploration—why it’s so energizing (and risky)
[11:14] - Stage 3: Foreclosure—when the excitement crashes into shame
[14:06] - Stage 4: Immersion—finding your people and feeling empowered
[16:27] - Stage 5: Integration—when ADHD becomes part of who you are
[24:35] - ADHD disruption spiral: when excitement leads back to burnout
[25:53] - Helping clients gently transition from immersion to integration
[29:00] - Justice sensitivity, burnout, and learning to put yourself first
[31:48] - Masking and how it changes across identity stages
[33:17] - Why it helps to know where you are in the identity model
[36:56] - The identity “reset” when another diagnosis (like autism) emerges
[38:00] - What integration looks like in real life
[39:03] - Why traditional identity models don’t fit ADHD
[40:56] - Marcy’s top advice if you're just starting to explore your ADHD

 

Connect with Dr. Marcy Caldwell:

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Marcy Caldwell:

Usually a diagnosis is almost like a needle popping a balloon. You kind of can't get back into it. So once we get a diagnosis, then we go into exploration. And exploration is exactly what it sounds like. It's kind of like, what is this thing? What is ADHD? What lines up for me, what doesn't it's a time of great energy. It's a time of focus and get all the knowledge that we can, like sponges Exactly. Give me all the knowledge. Let me listen to all the podcasts, let me read all the books, let me figure out all the systems. Right? It's a time that coaches and therapists love, because it's loss of energy, and people are really excited and hungry.

Brooke Schnittman:

Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman, let's get started. Welcome everybody back to successful with ADHD. Today we have Dr Marcie Caldwell, who is a psychologist, a writer and illustrator. You've probably seen her in many different books on social media. She's also, though, a proud wife and a mother and a family full of ADHD. So she gets it. She has 20 years of experience, and is passionate advocate for those with neurodiverse brains, focusing on helping craft systems and environments that nurture unique strengths. Marc is also the founder and director of the Center for ADHD, which is one of the nation's leading ADHD clinics, and is committed to making a difference in the lives of those impacted by neurodiversity. She also established the blog adept.org and the digital program meltdown to mastery to bring accessible, science backed information and strategies to adults with ADHD who might otherwise be unable to access services. Marc is a national recognized speaker, consultant, educator, and shares her insights with Fortune 500 companies and prestigious publications like The New York Times, in case you haven't heard of that before, Huff Post and she championship champions, awareness and advocacy for the ADHD community. Very warm. Welcome. Dr. Marcie Caldwell, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited Yes, and thank you for bearing with me. I know we've had some cancelations, but happy to finally make it work. This is really important stuff. Yes, so today we are digging into identity work. I know you've come up with a lot of different models, but this one in particular really resonated with me, and I know is going to stand out with our audience. Can you just tell me and the listeners, what is identity work? For those of people who don't know identity itself is basically all the different components of what makes us unique, right? That includes all the things. It includes our physical attributes, it includes our role in family and society. It includes our jobs. It includes where we live. It includes what we've done with our lives, in our lives, what experiences we've had, what traumas we've had. Like it is, it is all the things that makes us who we are, and it makes us unique from others. Any individual thing isn't necessarily different than anybody else, right? Like, there are lots of redheads out there in the world. I'm not the only one. There's lots of psychologists out there in the world, right? And there are lots of moms. None of these things make make me, on their own, unique. It's a combination of all the things that make me or anybody else, unique. I like to think of it at almost as like a sand art bottle, right? Like those, those things that we used to make on the boardwalk or at a birthday party, and each little grain of sand comes in different colors and and we're kind of collecting those different grains of sand as we go along in our lives. And that's what makes each individual person you I love that I've also heard of, like the snowflake before, right? We all are different snowflakes, especially our brains, our histories and our futures. So talk to me though about why, specifically with ADHD, it's so critical, and why it's been overlooked with ADHD, we think about, you know, how people approach their ADHD and and particularly as clinicians, we think about ADHD treatment as developing systems and creating environments and working on emotional regulation, all these, all These aspects that we talk a lot about in the ADHD world, that are super important for sure.

Marcy Caldwell:

The thing about when we just focus on that, though, is that we neglect to think about how we interact with the diagnosis itself, right and with. Identity, the identity of I have an ADHD brain, and what does that mean to me as a person, to my family, to me walking around in the world. So when we don't address that, particularly when we don't as clinicians, address it in treatment, oftentimes what happens is shame continues to build, right? Because as much as we love to talk about ADHD being awesome and all the good things about ADHD, there is still a huge stigma, and there are still a lot of challenges that come with living with an ADHD brain, and most people first approach the diagnosis as a negative and as something that needs to be fixed and as something that needs to kind of be handled and put away, right so how we approach it and and kind of our positioning towards the diagnosis tends to change and shift over time. And I think it's really important that we all that we're looking at that and we're considering that, not necessarily to move people along faster or more smoothly, but really just with this idea that that our orientation towards the diagnosis is going to change. Ideally, we want to be moving towards a direction that holds less shame and is a little bit more balanced, and something that brings great struggle, but also strength, just like other aspects of of our identity and anybody else's Identity. Yeah. So

Brooke Schnittman:

of course, with change and situations in your life, your ADHD symptoms are going to manifest differently. It's going to you're going to struggle some days or certain times, right? And then you're going to feel like you have it all figured out on other days, you're going to have awareness. And then you're going to have shame the next day, right? You're gonna Can you tell me what specifically goes into this identity model? So then we could maybe pull it apart a little bit and bring all those pieces together alongside with the tools that we mentioned outside of the identity model, with like executive function Marc and emotional regulation, because it all goes hand in hand. Like you said,

Marcy Caldwell:

the identity model itself builds on the history of identity models. So I just want to say that at its forefront, I didn't invent the idea of identity models, but there isn't one that has fit kind of the ADHD experience until now and so and so this has been created originally from my practice with, you know, the 1000s of clients in our practice looking at, kind of, how did they move through their relationship with ADHD? And the model is a five stage model. I'm going to describe it in a linear fashion. Of course, it's not linear, right? Like a is ADHD and B. You know, we don't approach parts of who we are in a linear way. You can be in more than one spot at the same time, right? Like, it can kind of be living in one spot in one part of your life and another spot in another. But I am going to describe it in a linear way, so we're going to start with diffusion. Diffusion is usually where folks are before a diagnosis, or before they start kind of reading up on it and thinking, Oh, actually, this sounds like me, right? And diffusion is basically a place where folks feel like I'm Yeah, I struggle, but everyone struggles, usually in diffusion. People feel like the reason they struggle is about who they are as a person has nothing to do with their brain working differently. They assume, you know, my brain works just like everybody else's. It does. We're all have the same struggles. I'm just failing at this, and everybody else is is doing this well, right? That is the one stage that's kind of harder to move back into, although people, you know, our brains are magical things, and they can work all kinds of tricks on us, so we can certainly move back into it. But usually a diagnosis is almost like a needle popping a balloon, right? And you kind of can't get back into it. So once we get a diagnosis, then we go into exploration. And exploration is exactly what it sounds like. It's kind of like, what is this thing? What is ADHD? What lines up for me, what doesn't? It's a time of great energy. It's a time of, like,

Brooke Schnittman:

super focus. I have this thing with all the knowledge that we can, like

Marcy Caldwell:

sponges Exactly. Give me all the knowledge. Let me listen to all the podcasts, let me read all the books. Let me figure out all the systems. Right? It's a time. Time that that coaches and therapists love, right? Because it's loss of energy, and people are really excited and hungry. But there's also in there this little kind of root of shame that is kind of a I'm hungry for all this because there's something wrong, like there this is, this isn't good, and I want to get rid of it. So I'm hungry for all the information that's going to help me get rid of all this, rather

Brooke Schnittman:

than working with it trying to expel, yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

exactly, yeah, yeah. So the risk in this stage is that it's the I'm going to put all my efforts in on this because and all of that effort is signaling that there's something wrong with me, right? Sometimes it can kind of further the shame, and sometimes they can further that, like that struggle really might build some great systems and, you know, and things might get easier, but that, that real suffering kind of still exists,

Brooke Schnittman:

right? That restorative work is not really there, and you're living with the pain, right? You're, you know, you're helping your day to day systems, but you haven't, like, dealt with the root

Marcy Caldwell:

Exactly, yeah, yeah. And so oftentimes, what happens after a period of this exploration is what, what's then called diffusion, I'm sorry, foreclosure, which is, is a sad place to be. It's a place of low energy. It's a place of, oh, shoot, I can't fix this, right? Like, this isn't going away. Oftentimes people get here when they try a whole bunch of systems, and maybe they work a little, but they don't actually, you know, improve overall life that much, or they're really struggling to get systems in place that they thought were gonna, you know, be the magic dancer, and it can be a really dark place to be, and it can feel really lonely. And I've heard people, you know, even kind of describe it as, like, I can't even ADHD write. There are all these things, all these strategies that are working so great for everybody, that people are talking about me, they don't even work for me, you know. And I see people kind of flow in and out of exploration foreclosure over and over again, right? It's a very normal cycle. It can be in foreclosure for a little while, and then, you know, some new, some new idea or excitement or system might come on the horizon and be like, Oh, yes, now I'm back into it. Yeah, and I'm back, and the energy comes back, and then it wanes again, and and so people kind of do that flow quite, quite often, then the next stage, again, not linear, but is immersion. And immersion is often where people start to identify as part of the ADHD community, right? And maybe they've joined a group, maybe they've really gotten into a podcast, maybe they've, I don't know, gone to the ADHD international conference. You know, they feel accepted, right? Exactly, they feel accepted. And they start to look around and be like, some of these people are awesome, because they are and they start to kind of feel at home amid all these really great people. And it's like, oh, this is my crew. I really like this. This is really working for me, and I really like to be around these neurodivergent folks. This feels like home to me. And so this is another really energetic phase, right? It's a like, Oh, I love this group. Let me see oftentimes people want to kind of give back to the community. In this stage, there's kind of start to look for ways to do that, and they feel very empowered,

Brooke Schnittman:

like, on right, on top of the world, right? Like I found my place, yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

exactly. And then there's integration. And integration holds that, say is it's like a quieter version of immersion in some ways, right? Like it holds that same confidence and acknowledgement of the beauty of the way that my individual brain works, but awareness of the struggle, but not in any kind of better or worse than spot, right? It's really just kind of a, yeah, yeah, I I've got good, I've got bad, you've got good, you've got bad. Like, how can we help each other happy, to help people understand how they can help me best, because I also know that I bring so much to the table, right? Is, is a very kind of entering every room on. On a on equal footing, my ADHD doesn't make me better or worse, it just makes me human. Yeah, and, and here's what I know about myself. Tell me about yourself, sort of thing, right? Research shows that integration, there's a lot of kind of mental health benefits to integration. You know, there's a lot of physical health, mental health benefits, a lot of protection against kind of life transitions, things like that. Because when we are able to integrate all these different parts of ourselves and kind of own it confidently, we can kind of maneuver through life a little bit more. So what

Brooke Schnittman:

I'm hearing you say is pre diagnosis, starts the model, then we get diagnosed. Then there's this awareness and this immersion, right? We're just learning everything. Then we are like jumping into our people. We're trying to we feel connected, we feel excited. We're listening to the podcast, we're reading the book, we're watching YouTube, we're doing everything, ADHD. Then it just kind of becomes a part of us, right? Like this, give and take of connecting with others, and it's, it doesn't hold that same level of excitement, but it's kind of just like, living with it. Is that correct? Okay,

Marcy Caldwell:

yeah, I almost think of it as, like, when you first get married and you're just, like, totally obsessed with your partner, right? And, like, that's awesome, and it feels amazing. And integration is kind of a like, five or 10 years in, right? It's like, it's a quieter love, less all consuming. It's

Brooke Schnittman:

so funny. I was when you were saying this, I was thinking of myself and my diagnosis, so, like, seven years ago, getting diagnosed, starting my ADHD company, I was in that spot. It's like full immersion, right? It's so exciting, going to the conference. Oh my god, this person's ever stores there. I gotta read all these books, right? Take every single course, every single certification, yeah, and now it's the same. It's kind of just okay, living with it, like still excited about things, but not as excited as before, yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

yeah. But there's also kind of a grounding that comes with that not as excited as before, right? Every stage has pros and cons, right? And it can feel a little like, Oh, I'm not as excited, particularly for an ADHD brain that really thrives on that excitement. It can feel like, oh, what's wrong? But there's also this kind of rootedness and stability that comes from that enthusiasm, hyper focus, kind of being behind you,

Brooke Schnittman:

correct. It's like you're integrated to your point. You know, it's just part of you. It doesn't become like your full 100% in front of you, trying to have to do everything related to that right now. I see it more as like, Ooh, what's this? Like, new thing I don't know about in the ADHD space. Let me check that out type thing, or let me dig a little bit deeper into this other thing. Sorry, I'm going on a tangent, but keep going. No,

Marcy Caldwell:

no, that's, that's exactly right. And I think it's easy to think of integration as, like, the goal, sure, sort of, it kind of is. But also, there's a lot of evidence that we're going to kind of be constantly shifting, right, and that's okay, and that should be, because your life is going to change, you're going to change, and how you relate to your diagnosis and your neurotype is going to change, and that's okay. And this idea that you know you very well might exist in two different spots at the same time, right that, like at home, you might feel very comfortable in integration and feel like, yeah, we're all we're cool, like, we all have different types. We're going to help each other out. And then you might go into a certain part of your work and feel like, Oh, shoot. Like, you know they don't need these kinds of particular accommodations that I need, and I feel insecure about it in this one spot, right? And that's completely normal. And some of that is us as people, some of that is the systems that we're in, right? The systems can can make it really hard to get into an integrative spot.

Brooke Schnittman:

Okay, so integration is the last step of the five step identity model. Now, from integration, I know you said it's fluid, right? So if you go up and down, you could be in multiple spots same time. But can anyone ever get past that five step? So you go into integration and. And what like to me, that kind of seems like a wall. You're hitting a wall, right? Like it's great, but there has to be more.

Marcy Caldwell:

I I don't know. Well, maybe that'll be your next week. Marc, you know, I think research has always kind of stopped there and then seeing that as the thing that leads that kind of psychological protection, but that that integration is going to shift and change, right? Like if we are this continually evolving sand art bottle, those little grains of sand are going to keep moving coming in, and yeah, and so how we relate to our neurotype is going to keep moving and shifting as more comes in.

Brooke Schnittman:

And you know, I was thinking about also when I said that, you know, when you want more, then you're going back into immersion, right? So you're not, maybe you're at integration and immersion then at the same time.

Unknown:

So yeah, is integration the goal

Brooke Schnittman:

or not?

Marcy Caldwell:

Kinda it does provide the psychological protection, and that's very real, and that's, you know, kind of very rooted in the research. So in some ways, yes. And also, the thing that I like about integration is that it comes with that quiet confidence, which is a much easier way of walking around in the world, right? However, if I have a client who's in immersion and feeling really enthusiastic. I'm not like rushing to get them over to integration, right? If they're in foreclosure, that's a really uncomfortable place to be. And while, again, I'm still not rushing, because I don't ever want to rush anybody through any of this, I am helping them question it and helping them maybe start to try to move either back into exploration or into an immersion spot, by kind of opening them up to more community and that sort of thing. So in

Brooke Schnittman:

ADHD terms, you said that psychologically, it's safer to be an integration. So what would it be like then, and from a psychological perspective, in immersion, in foreclosure, like, what would that be like if you were to treat the person

Marcy Caldwell:

you know, there are risks and benefits to each of these stages. So, for example, people that come into treatment and foreclosure are sometimes misdiagnosed as having depression, right? Because it is this very low energy spot. There is often a lot of self esteem issues, a lot of shame. You know, I'm always kind of mindful about suicidality at this in the spot as well. And people are often very isolated, and people are normally kind of saying things like, I'm I'm broken, you know, there, there's kind of no point. I don't know why I'm here. Like, this isn't gonna get better, right? So as I said, it's a really painful spot to be the picture of somebody in immersion is a very different picture, but there are still risks there and obviously huge benefits, right? There's all the energy and excitement and connection and community, but sometimes that can kind of limit other parts of our personality, right? Like, if we're all in on this one aspect, it is just one aspect of our sand art bottle,

Brooke Schnittman:

and I would imagine that with ADHD too, right? Once someone gets past that foreclosure spot, they can get stuck in that immersion spot, because they consistently have this new, exciting immersion that arises. Yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

I have heard people, you know, get kind of stuck there and then, because the novelty wears off of it, rather than going into the integration. Sometimes they go back to foreclosure because, because it feels like this energy suck out of it, of like, oh, this is not no longer exciting, and I and this is still how my brain works, and what now, right? And it goes into this kind of more depressive spot.

Brooke Schnittman:

Sure, it's interesting because it's not the same, but at the same time, I talk about the ADHD disruption spiral in my program, and I go from, you know, this underwhelm, right? That came from burnout. So that would be your foreclosure spot. Um, so the underwhelm, then you are stuck in this underwhelm. You get this new, exciting idea, you get into the hyper focus, the immersion, right? Yeah. And then, because you're so stuck in there, then you then burn out again, right? And you go back into the foreclosure stage, right? Yep, yep. So then, what would you say you suggest to clients that are working with you to kind of peacefully go from immersion to integration.

Marcy Caldwell:

I'm often asking for them to look at other aspects of their identity, and I do this while they're still solidly in immersion, right? I've kind of, I'm always wanting to seed future stages. So when they're solidly an immersion, I'm encouraging them, challenging them to also, you know, join a hiking group or or a gardening club or

Brooke Schnittman:

so not just focus on one thing. Yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

exactly, challenging the the hyper focus a little bit and seeing if we can start to kind of build out those other aspects, right? Not in order to take energy away from the ADHD enthusiasm, but more as almost protection for when that enthusiasm starts to wane a little so that we have these other things to kind of dive into, and I'm also kind of challenging them to really, kind of continue to look at how their brain is working, right? I think sometimes people can get really an immersion and be like, you know, this community is amazing. This is wonderful, and get really focused on helping other people and talking about it with other people, and not continually look at their own life, and how can I keep kind of working to shift my environment to work best for who I am and how my brain works? How can I continue to understand how my brain works and if it's changing at all?

Brooke Schnittman:

Well, I know this isn't where we're going with this topic, but I think it's important to kind of bring it up based on what's going on in today's world, like just the sensitivity, right? So that is huge right now. And I know as neuro divergence, we have strong just the sensitivity. So I would imagine that that's something that you talk about with immersion in taking care of yourself while also being so focused on trying to take care of everyone else who feel is not being taken care

Marcy Caldwell:

of. Yeah, for sure. Yeah and, and this is crucial in both immersion and integration to some degree too, right? Like these are stages where they're very where we're very other focused, and that's wonderful. And we can't forget about ourselves, right? And so we do need to kind of continually, and again, this is not the natural inclination of an ADHD brain, but kind of continually find ways to check in and what's going on with me? What's what's happening here, what needs to kind of be tweaked, and how am I doing with this right now?

Brooke Schnittman:

So how do you do that? Though, I'm curious, because I'm getting these questions today as we're speaking, right? And you know, of course, I I share what I think is appropriate, right? Like, you know you really need time for yourself to once you're burned out to really just like, take a day and and calm your brain right, as long as you need, and then determine what you can control and what you can control, while also doing what you think is right as well. Like managing that energy and time. But like when you have someone who is so justice sensitive, how does this ad shooter or neurodivergent person really focus on themselves? Really believe in focusing on themselves before they get to the burnouts? Yes, I'm sure that would be hard. So

Marcy Caldwell:

it's definitely hard and and I do think that you asked kind of two different questions, though, right? Because one is, how do they do it, and the other is, how do they believe they need to do it? One doesn't necessarily need to proceed the the other sometimes we need to act first and the belief comes along behind it. In fact, I think oftentimes that's how we need to operate, you know? And so when I'm working with folks, I'm really doing it in a retrospective sort of way of, kind of like, well, let's look like, you know, what does happen if you don't if you don't feed yourself in this way, right? Right? If you don't take care of yourself, how effective are you out in the world, and how effective is how you are responding to that justice or injustice? How effective is that helping people see the patterns in their life, right, rather than just kind of coming in with like. Like, yeah, no, that's not gonna work. Or, you know, the put the oxygen mask on yourself analogy. But I think we really, you know, we all need to learn our own lessons. We all need to kind of have that experience before it really starts to resonate. And therefore, you kind of do need to do the action first right of kind of like, well, okay, so maybe you're not truly bought into this idea, but could we try it? Could we try a media fast for two days where you're also going to make sure that you get out in nature and do some exercise and connect with friends right during that time, or whatever, whatever your personal recipe is, then a, see how we feel afterwards, and B, then see how you re engage with this topic. And do you feel any more effective, right? Do little behavioral experiments and see like, does this hypothesis merit Further experimentation?

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah, I love that. I totally agree that when things are chaotic, like, you still like, don't ask yourself the question, why? And more so just do take action for yourself. And then the belief comes after, yeah, we talked about the benefits of different stages. Do you think that like masking, for instance? And we know there, that's a very hot topic right now, and we see it more so in women, especially with ADHD, and that's why we are so under diagnosed in the ADHD population. But would you say that that can change for sure depending on the person's identity. Stage

Marcy Caldwell:

masking tends to happen much more often. In exploration and foreclosure, it's happening in an unconscious way, in diffusion. We don't know.

Brooke Schnittman:

We think we have anxiety, or we're just like, being the good girl in the classroom, right? Yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

exactly, yeah, yeah. But it's still happening. It's still like, I'm still trying to act like everybody else. I just think I'm acting because I'm inherently bad, not because my brain is operating differently, right? In exploration and foreclosure is much more conscious. It's much more like, oh, I need to make sure that I'm not interrupting in this conversation, or I need to make sure that, you know, I'm turning this thing in on time. And so let me really figure this out and put a lot of effort into that. I need to, I need to show up differently than would be my norm in immersion. I think part of why immersion is so appealing for folks is that in the community of ADHD, there's a lot less mastering that's necessary, right? And you can show up as your more full self, and you can interrupt, and you can be late, and you you know, and and you're gonna receive a lot of understanding.

Brooke Schnittman:

Let me ask you a question. I think I know the answer, but I want to hear it from you, because you're the expert. This is your model for ADHD, what is the purpose of a client knowing which phase they're in

Marcy Caldwell:

a I'm a big fan of information, and I think the more information we have, the more empowered we are to act on it in whichever way feels most authentic to ourselves, right? So I'm always wanting to empower folks with the information themselves, so that they're not having to be at the MARC of somebody else who might have a different view for their life or plan for their life. So that's part of it, but then it's also, I think it's really important to kind of understand what the road is that we're on. I think it helps us write the narrative of who we are, and it helps us formulate our identity, to know where we've been and where we might be going. And it builds in some hope, right of like I might be feeling this way right now, and this feels very true and authentic to me and I, and I do want to, you know, I think it can be easy when we're talking about this, to feel like, oh well, you know, is here in exploration, like, oh so sweet, right? Like, no, like, it's very real. It's a very real stage that we need to be at, and to know that you might not always feel that way, right? That there might be a different way that you approach this diagnosis, and that lots of people have been there before and feel differently now. Lots of different people have been in foreclosure. Almost everyone.

Brooke Schnittman:

I mean, I I'm like, a perimenopause mom of a neurodivergent family, foreclosure happens.

Marcy Caldwell:

Oh, yeah, that's. Yeah, yes, yeah. And it feels like it's gonna last forever, you know? And this is honestly something that, like, I think women can relate to in particular, right? Like before. Sorry, this may be a weird connection, but before you start tracking your cycle, it's so easy to be like, I'm just always a bitch, like, I must always be

Brooke Schnittman:

the worst person in the world, like, normal, right? Yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

crazy, yeah, and I Yep, I'm just suddenly crazy, and I'll be crazy forever. I have no idea why. And then we start tracking our cycle, and it's like, Oh, okay. Like I get it, yeah, I feel crazy, and I will feel crazy for the next 48 hours, and then I'm going to feel differently. And I know that it feels like I'm going to feel like this forever, but I also have some understanding and experience with the fact that I won't feel like this forever. Understanding this kind of roadmap does the same sort of thing of just helping you see it all in context.

Brooke Schnittman:

Yeah. So I'm sure you're aware that many people with ADHD are now noticing that they have an autism diagnosis, because the ADHD diagnosis came first, and so I'm imagining that they're now going through your identity model again. So they got acceptance with their ADHD. They were immersed, then they were integrated, and now they have to start it all over again. Yeah. How does that work for someone psychologically that now feels like they're finally understanding their brain. But there's this other piece of it that this whole time, once they got it, once they accepted it, there's a there's another thing through

Marcy Caldwell:

Well, I think this is kind of what happens throughout life, right? And as you were saying, like, so wait, we just, we're just integrated for the rest of our lives, like, kind of, but there's all this other stuff that's gonna enter the picture. And maybe it's autism, or maybe it's menopause, or maybe it's, you know, an empty nester, or, you know, who knows, maybe it's retiree. All our identity is constantly shifting, and we are having to go through this process, or a similar process, with each new identity change. And it is part of what is protective about getting to an integrative spot with some aspect of your identity is then it's easier as the other things come in and shift and change to kind of have some rooting in something, yeah. What would you say that

Brooke Schnittman:

the rooting of the integration stage is like the values, strengths, interests, that kind of stuff, your motivation, goals? Yeah,

Marcy Caldwell:

it's this understanding and this quiet confidence of this is this is just part of me. There is a positive aspect to this. There is a negative aspect to this, and I know how to handle it to some degree, right? Like I know what I need to kind of show up as my best self, being able to work with that from from your values and from what you need and what your goals are, that is really kind of what provides that, that rooted, groundedness

Brooke Schnittman:

that makes sense. And then, of course, all of the other pieces that help with our executive functions as well that can keep you feeling as confident as possible in the systems that we have, right? Yeah, okay, yeah. So why would you say that, like the traditional identity developmental model works, doesn't work for people with ADHD.

Marcy Caldwell:

So there have been lots of identity models developed over the years. I kind of started back in the 40s, and they've been worked for different groups and different parts of our identity. And the one that a lot of people work with for a lot of various different conditions is a disability identity model, which seems like, Okay, well, that that should probably work for an ADHD crowd. But there, there are a lot of things that are different about ADHD that aren't true for, let's say, a physical disability that has you in a wheelchair, for example, right? It's invisible. It's contested. There are still people out there in the world that don't think that it's a real thing, or think that is wildly over diagnosed, or all these different things, and that contesting then starts to kind of infiltrate ourselves, right? And then we end up. Having to fight that battle ourselves. So there's a way that folks with ADHD have to kind of continually advocate externally and internally, that you don't have to do. You don't have to continually self identify and self advocate if you have a physical handicap, or, you know, they've, they've done a lot of kind of, what they are called difference models, difference identity models, so different racial identity models, things like that. That, again, you're not having to continually kind of self identify often, or kind of debate with folks about

Brooke Schnittman:

it. That makes sense. Okay, so what would be like your number one advice for someone who is learning about their ADHD is now hearing this podcast about the identity model, what would you want to leave them with here today

Marcy Caldwell:

that how you feel about your ADHD today probably isn't going to be how you feel about it in a year or two years or three years, and that's okay if you are in kind of an exploration phase. I would just be careful that all this kind of like system sacking, that you're kind of monitoring what that does in terms of how you feel about yourself, right? They think that's the big risk in that stage, this kind of acquisition of of system after system after system, feeling each new system feels like further proof that I need to be fixed. And if you're feeling that again, that's okay. You know, we all have need to feel all of the aspects of of each of these stages, but that, I would encourage folks and challenge folks to question that here and there. Question How much fixing actually needs to happen, what can happen in the environment, as opposed to internally instead,

Brooke Schnittman:

that's where the True Confidence comes, right? Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Dr, Marc, for being here today, and I'm excited for your future book that we're not talking about to come out. But where can people find you?

Marcy Caldwell:

You can find me at the Center for adhd.com or adept.org that's A, D, C, E, P, T, e.org,

Brooke Schnittman:

awesome. Thank you so much for being here today.

Marcy Caldwell:

Thank you.

Brooke Schnittman:

Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us@coachingwithbrooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember it's Brooke with an E. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.

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