Engineering Motivation with ADHD: A New Way to Understand Productivity With Jeff Copper

In this episode, I’m joined by returning guest Jeff Copper, a cognitive engineer, ADHD coach, and host of Attention Talk Radio. Jeff has been a long-time voice in the ADHD community, and today we dive into a fascinating conversation about motivation, emotion, and executive function in ADHD.

Together, we explore a completely different way to think about motivation. Instead of seeing ADHD as a lack of motivation, Jeff introduces a powerful framework that explains why motivation can feel so difficult—and how the right accommodations can completely change the game. We also discuss the emotional cost of executive functioning, why “lazy” isn’t a useful label, and how collaboration and conversation can unlock productivity for ADHD brains. If you’ve ever wondered why some tasks feel impossible while others feel effortless, this episode will give you a fresh lens to understand it.

Episode Highlights

[0:42] - Introducing returning guest Jeff Copper and his work in cognitive ergonomics

[2:41] - What motivation really is and why it’s deeply tied to emotion

[4:39] - Situational variability: why ADHD brains may choose TikTok over taxes

[7:32] - Why the word “lazy” doesn’t belong in conversations about ADHD

[9:00] - The two-force model of motivation: automatic brain vs. executive functioning brain

[15:02] - How executive function impairment changes the effort required for motivation

[17:05] - Why willpower and rewards often fail as long-term ADHD strategies

[18:49] - The problem with “extra time” accommodations and what might work better

[20:30] - Why direct oral conversation can be a powerful ADHD accommodation

[24:30] - The hidden role of collaboration in productivity and problem solving

[30:11] - A real example: using conversation to get started on something like taxes

[36:46] - How talking through problems strengthens executive function

[42:15] - Are people with ADHD verbal processors?

[45:01] - The big takeaway: ADHDers aren’t unmotivated—they just need the right accommodations

[47:25] - Thinking partners vs. accountability partners

Links & Resources

Jeff Copper, cognitive engineer and ADHD coach, is founder of DIG Coaching Practice and host of Attention Talk Radio and Video. He developed Cognitive Ergonomics from the Inside Out ® , a new ADHD intervention using an engineering approach to address executive function challenges. Jeff holds an MBA from the University of Tampa and credentials from ICF, PAAC, ADDCA, and CTI. A member of ADDA, ACO, CHADD, PAAC, and ICF, he received ACO's 2022 Professional Excellence Award. His work continues to innovate and redefine ADHD coaching through practical insights and a focus on how minds truly work.

Jeff Copper – DIG Coaching - digcoaching.com

Attention Talk Radio - attentiontalkradio.com

Attention Talk Video - attentiontalkvideo.com

Attention Talk News - attentiontalknews.com

Connect with Jeff Cooper:

DIG Coaching -- Learn more about Jeff Copper's work and the Attention Scope tool. 

🚨Calling all aspiring ADHD coaches ▶️ https://www.coachingwithbrooke.com/coach-certification-and-training

Help your clients break free from paralysis and better manage their life with 3C Activation® coach training!

💥Gain a proven process for ADHD coaching

💥Earn 38 ICF Credits and 25.5 PAAC CCE’s

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Transcript

Jeff Copper: 0:00

So what I'm arguing is that direct oral conversation is an is an accommodation, a legitimate accommodation, for people with ADHD, everybody uses it. Neurotypicals use it. People with ADHD use it. The issue is, people with ADC, they need more because of the impairment. So if this is true, this changes everything, because if we can provide direct oral conversation in this situation or collaboration, there's other things, but I'm just harping on that right now. It's no longer about giving you longer to pain. It's actually providing systemic relief.

Brooke Schnittman: 0:36

Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke schnittman, let's get started. Welcome everybody. We have an old friend, seasoned friend, I should say, Jeff copper. He is no stranger to the successful with ADHD podcast. He's a cognitive engineer and ADHD coach and the founder of dig coaching practice, and actually, one of his podcast, short form videos went viral on our Instagram. So definitely check our Instagram out if you don't already, but you'll see him talking about an ADHD simulation has gotten millions of views, so we're excited to see what he has to say today. He's the founder of dig, coaching practice and host of attention talk radio and video, where you'll hear and see me too. He develops cognitive ergonomics from the inside out, which is a new ADHD intervention using engineering approach to address executive function challenges. So we've spoken about this in our previous podcast episodes, and we're going to talk a little bit more about it today. And Jeff holds an MBA from the University of Tampa and credentials for ICF PAC at gun CTI. He received a CEOs 2022 professional excellence award, and his work continues to innovate and redefine ADHD coaching through practical insights and a focus on how minds truly work. So welcome back to successful with ADHD.

Jeff Copper: 2:04

Jeff, thank you so much, Buck. I'm so grateful you let me come on and talk about this crazy stuff sometimes,

Brooke Schnittman: 2:12

so wild, right? Just wild. So, yeah, there's a lot of talk about motivation. We have motivation formulas out there, and we hear, you know, the stories from the past, like ADHD ers lack motivation, they're lazy, they're this, right? All those negative, silly messages that we know are not true. So today we're gonna be talking about motivation and emotion. So let's just talk about motivation. Let's start there. What is it?

Jeff Copper: 2:41

So when you go out there, there's a lots of literature, but I kind of boil it down, it's an internal force. I'm going to take it a little bit further, and I'm going to say it's an internal emotional force. And the reason I think that's important is, like, AI doesn't really have a motivation or emotion to do stuff it's doing what's kind of programmed into it. So it's really an emotional force that determines what we do and don't do, in very simple terms, okay? For force.

Brooke Schnittman: 3:15

So in order to have motivation, you need to have an intrinsic emotion aligned with it? Yes, correct, yes.

Jeff Copper: 3:24

But let's, let's kind of pause, because one of the reasons why we're here today is I really have never talked a lot about emotion, because I didn't assume motivation, because it's an emotional topic. There's a lot of emotions on the emotion of motivation, and today I'm coming in with a new theory of motivation that is more tangible, that takes into consideration motivation, but talks about it in a way that we can begin to engineer motivation like it's a kind of a different concept. And so at its basic form, I think that we need to understand is that everything you've ever done in your entire life, you did it because that's what you were motivated to do. Everything you haven't done you didn't do it when you could have done it because you were actually motivated to do something else. So if we were going to make an objective observation, if you're saying, I'm not motivated to do my taxes, but you're Doom scrolling on tick tock. Well, you're motivated to doom scrolling, tick tock. I mean, that's a that's a factual based observation. I think a lot of what we're trying to do is a lot of people like I there's some things that I need to do, but I don't particularly like that I want to do. How do I make that happen?

Brooke Schnittman: 4:39

That's situational variability, right? I'm going to have some procrastivity here. I'm going to scroll on Instagram, but I'm not going to pay my taxes or do my taxes, because it takes way too much executive function, and this is hard, yeah, not interested in doing that.

Jeff Copper: 4:55

Yes, yes, it's just a lot of people look at adhia as a focus issue. To me, it's an executive function impairment. Often there's an emotional escape from the discomfort of engaging and put the problem solving exercise. And you and I have already done a podcast on your channel that went into that a little bit more detail, which I would encourage people to go back when this is done, to reference, because it's a it's important piece of it. But at the end of the day, the idea is motivation. Is motivation. What you do is you're motivated to do it. The trick really is, is, if I'm not doing something that I want to do, what do I do? Lots of emotions associated with that.

Brooke Schnittman: 5:30

And also, and I'm going to ask you in just a second about, like, you know, what do you mean by emotion? But yes, I understand, when you have an interest in doing something, you're going to shift your motivation to that other thing. But we know that momentum and motivation really comes from dopamine and from executive function, and so when we have low energy, we have lower levels of dopamine throughout the day. Then sometimes we don't shift it to do social media scrolling, sometimes we just literally need to take a nap or get more dopamine in more healthy way. So we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about, how do you get the right type of motivation Correct?

Jeff Copper: 6:15

Yeah, so if I can, because what I'm going to describe is conceptually very different from the way most people look at it. So if I can walk our way through this a little bit to kind of break it down, then we can kind of get into the questions, a lot of my answers will make a little bit more sense.

Brooke Schnittman: 6:30

Okay, yeah, so you said that the topic of motivation is very emotional. So what do you mean by that?

Jeff Copper: 6:35

I say it's emotional topic because everybody has a lot of emotions about motivation, like the statement to say somebody's unmotivated, that's an emotional observation. As I said, everything you've ever done, you did it because you were motivated to do it. So in that moment, people are looking at motivation as what you should do, not actually what you are doing. And why is that important? Well, you know, if, like, let's take a kid, like, if you're kind of teenager, and they need to do something, and you say you're not motivated to do it, they're really just shaming them. You're not really able to solve the problem. Well, they're on the couch watching TV. Okay, well, they're motivated to do that. The issue really is they need to be doing this other thing. How can I engineer a way that make it so that they'll go do that, as opposed to this? That's a way to problem solve. What is that issue? Not just complaining to your kid and making a statement that you're unmotivated. I don't really know how that actually resolves the problem. In a sense, you just shame people

Brooke Schnittman: 7:32

Sure, yeah, no. Shame has no, no space in the ADHD umbrella if we're going to get anywhere, and I appreciate that. As someone who has two teenage stepsons and a four year old and a husband we've talked about who all have ADHD. And I know this is just a little bit of a curveball, but I like to throw them in every now and then. Are you saying that there is no room for the word lazy correct for anyone, correct. Okay, everyone hear that? Yep.

Jeff Copper: 8:09

I think we have to take a look at this a little bit differently to understand why I can make that statement so kind of ergonomics from the inside out is a new field of engineering. I want to go live to it, but it's a model that takes an engineering approach to helping those with ADHD. I won't get into a lot of that, but the model is built on Dr Barclay's executive functioning construct. Many years ago, like 15 years ago, executive functions were just a kind of a catch term, but there was no unified definition of it, so he sat down and defined very specifically. ADHD is a collection of mind tools that you use to solve problems. So like self awareness is a executive function, emotional regulation, self restraint, visual imagery, verbal working memory, playing with information, your mind. He defined them very specifically, and so I took a look at the model that he built or defined, and has been kind of playing around with it. And part of his model talks about, think of the brain as a two level system. You have the primitive brain, which is the automatic brain, the reptilian brain, and you have the executive functioning brain. Executive functions are very effortful. You have to engage them and override the automatic brain, and where I'm going to come back to this effortful part in a second, because I want to give you an example of what that is. So at its most basic level, you have this two level system. And it occurred to me that, what if I looked at motivation as a two force system? You have your primitive brain that has a motivational force, and you have your executive functioning brain that has a motivational force. So I reached out to Dr Barclay, and I said, has anybody ever looked at it like this, or have you? And he said, to my knowledge, nobody has, but it's consistent with my model. And. Gotta tell you, that got me excited. So to me, when we take a look at the automatic brain, we're really talking about our urges. And what that is, is that that that urge to escape discomfort or to seek pleasure, to seek dopamine or escape something that's difficult, but that primitive level is driven by our urge to procreate, our urge to forge for food, to come in from the cold, to come in from heat. It's a very primitive motivational system with all animals. And if it wasn't for it, we would be dead. And that is consistent with his model, the executive functioning brain. I'm arguing and by the way, urges are emotional because you're seeking that for emotional relief. I'm arguing that the executive functioning brain is also emotional. There's a desire for achievement, to accomplish something. But like Dr Barclay said, the executive functioning motivation is a little bit more effortful. It's more painful. So let's, let's put that into a context. I was a internationally ranked swimmer in college for four hours a day, and I used to go to the pool. Still do sometimes, and I stand over pool's edge in my bathing suit, and the water temperature is typically 79 degrees. That's cold. Diving in is uncomfortable. There's going to be a shock. Now, often I'd stand there and say, Come on, dive in and dive in. And I think other people might have had this experience in some level where you're like, Okay, go and like, maybe somebody's next to you, and you're tricking them to kind of go in and kind of whatever. And I know as often I would dive in, I'd swim 25 yards or whatever, and I would warm up, but I literally have driven 30 minutes to get to a pool, got on pool deck and said, Never mind. I'm going home. The point that I'm trying to make is that executive functioning, emotional motivation to achieve requires a level of effort and a level of discomfort that you have to endure in order for that to take place. And so if we take a look at motivation, this way, we have two forces. You have your automatic brain and you have your executive functioning brain that are now competing for dominance. I argue is that in a neurotypical there's an equilibrium, there's a balance of power between these two forces. Okay? Now this is important, really important. Dr Barclay defines ADHD as an executive functioning impairment. We talked about this in our last podcast. Executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. Problems are characterized as things that are multifaceted and ambiguous. So planning is multifaceted and biggest, making decisions, managing time, priorities, they're all multifaceted and ambiguous. So we begin to understand that's where this issue lies. Now, if there's an impairment, an impairment would mean that it is less efficient or or you wouldn't have the ability. So for our purposes, just because the math is easy, let's assume that the executive functioning brain is impaired by 50% a neurotypical might exert one unit of of motivation or effort and produce one unit of output. A person with ADHD, if they exhibited one unit of motivation, they would only have a half a unit of output. There's a difference that's there. In order to compensate for that difference, they would have to exert extra energy, twice the energy or twice the motivation to produce the same outcome. That extra effort is now an emotional cost, right? What happens is that emotional cost swings the pendulum in favor of the automatic brain. So let me go back to it. Imagine I'm at swimmer's edge, and the normal pool temperature is 79 but now it's 59 Whoa. That's different. Back in those days, I had body fat like five and a half percent. I got nothing to insulate me. I'm not going to that water. I'm not going to get warm, and so I would resist that. So I'm just using that as an example. So if this is the case, what I'm grateful is the opportunity to come on and share this. Because people with ADHD, when you look at them, if they're not doing something that we think that you they should do that requires executive functioning, we're judging them as unmotivated? I'm going, Well, no, I'm not so sure they're unmotivated. It's just the amount of motivation that they need. There's a point in time where it's not worth the effort. So they gravitate and so this force favors the automatic brain, and so there's this disequilibrium where this takes place, and I'm going to go on and talk about this a little bit more. But I want to pause to see if you got any questions so far,

Brooke Schnittman: 15:02

Brooke, you're talking about it as a two tier system, automatic brain, and we're talking about the executive function brain. And what I'm hearing you say is that there's emotions a lot that are tied into the executive function brain, not only the automatic brain as we know it, around where the limbic system is correct. So when we think of motivation for someone with ADHD in the past or even in the present, we often think that you have to be interested based on it, right? It has to be novel, as we challenge. It has to be urgent, right? We talk for Dr Dodson talks about that, and if it's none of those things, then very often we have low motivation for it, or low dopamine for it, and then we hypo focus, and we actually that's the situational, situational variability, right? But what you're saying is, is that there actually is a different way to gain motivation, not just with interest, challenge, novelty and urgency.

Jeff Copper: 16:03

There's a few things in there that I'm going to debunk in a little bit, but for a logical reason. But over what you see, what you see a person do, the motivation that you see is the force that won. We typically see the impulsivity or that escape, because it's the urge that's winning the battle of dominance and is ultimately what's deriving the motivation. Okay, so if we go back to where we are and we say, Hey, there's this disequilibrium, what do you do? Well, one way is willpower. Now if you're going to use emotional energy to amp up your emotions right to jump into 60 degree water, you're not bringing equilibrium. You're just using more energy, more emotional energy, to will yourself through that stuff. And it's really not realistic. You might do it every once in a while, but it's not a sustainable thing, because it's not bringing and

Brooke Schnittman: 17:05

then it's adrenaline, it's adrenaline, and then of then you burn out. And there's only so many times you can do that and function daily, yep.

Jeff Copper: 17:14

So that's one. The other one is rewards. And so think of it like this, I was recently in DC, was asked to be on a steering committee to with a bunch of lobbyists, to go through Congress, to kind of start helping steer public policy as a result of everything that's been going on. And I happen to be at the Capitol, and I imagine somebody that didn't have any legs at the steps at the bottom of it needing to go up now they don't have a wheelchair and there's not a ramp, I might be able to give them a reward each step that they are having to crawl up, literally on the ground, to crawl up the steps to get to the Capitol. I'm giving them roar to amplify their emotion to get past the discomfort, the extra effort and the challenge it is for them to drag themselves up, but once they're up there, once, do they really want to go through that effort again? If they go back over and over and over, I'm arguing you have to amplify the reward more and more and more and more, and there's a point of diminishing returns. And so you're really talking about giving that reward to amplify the emotion, to kind of get up there. And it would, it would seem to help understand why rewards at some level don't work anymore. There's a diminishing return to that. Now. Next is accommodations, and there's two kinds, one that's prevalent in our world, and I'm going to pick on one of them, and that is to give people with ADHD extra time. Basically, you get longer to suffer. Think about it, longer to suffer

Brooke Schnittman: 18:49

if you have anxiety, yeah.

Jeff Copper: 18:51

So think of it like this, you have eight hours to do your work. We're going to give you 10 hours to do your work. Well, okay, we're moving from chronic anxiety to acute anxiety, or acute to, like, chronic because over a long period of time, you're not really providing relief. You're just really, really trying harder. And if you look at the research, like extra time on tests and stuff like that, doesn't it's been proven not to work. But our go to methodology is, again, these types of things where we're giving people a longer time to really suffer because we're not providing relief for the impairment. We're just giving more time. What I'm arguing with this new model is adaptive accommodations. These are things that provide relief. In our last interview, we talked about axiom I came with called the intangible axiom, which basically says, If ADHD is an executive functioning impairment and executive functions are used to solve problems, which is why we have these issues. We understand that language was originally derived for the sole purpose of solving shared problems 1000s of years. Years ago, we I'm hungry, Brooke, I can't kill this thing without your help. I need you to go on the other side, so I start pointing and directing you so we can work together. So oral conversations is the most basic form of problem solving. It originated when we came up with language. So what I'm arguing is that direct oral conversation is an is an accommodation? A legitimate accommodation, for people with ADHD, everybody uses it. Neurotypicals use it. People with ADHD use it. The issue is, people with ADC, they need more because of the impairment. So if this is true, this changes everything, because if we can provide direct oral conversation in this situation, or collaboration. There's other things, but I'm just harping on that right now. It's no longer about giving you longer to pain. It's actually providing systemic relief. So my eyesight is impaired, right? There's no amount I can sit here and I can try to read and I can just suffer, but if I have the accommodation, it mitigates the impairment. If a person with ADHD has a problem solving impairment in mind, and they can collaborate and Brooke as a coach, you get people to talk through problems all the time, every day, that's what you do to help them solve problems. You're providing them as systemic relief, right? In order to do that, and I'm arguing is that that provides the relief. It's not like harder. It's like my glasses, it mitigates it. And so when you talk in collaboration with people, Brooke, when you're working with them to solve problems, they're not having a hard time focusing as much as they would on their own, because you're engaging them in that process, it's providing relief, and now we got equilibrium. It's kind of coming back into balance. People with ADHD are as intelligent as anybody else. The issue is they got to problem solve externally, and in this scenario, direct oral communications is one of those means. And so if we begin to change our view of motivation as this two, this two, four system, and we actually acknowledge there's this invisible impairment, right? We can begin to understand why ADHD people struggle. In fact, they're not motivated. It just takes so much motivation for them to do something that they struggle to do that. But we can provide engineering wise, if we can make it cognitively easier, we can bring it into balance, and then they will begin to do what they didn't do before.

Brooke Schnittman: 22:30

Yeah, so I know we've spoken a lot about, you know, asking the right types of questions in coaching and in cognitive ergonomics that you've created to probe the ADHD or to think externally with their executive functions. I do because, you know, this is why we love each other. I do want to challenge you on just one thing you did say about additional time and extended time. So I want to see the research, because I believe you and I would like to say that as someone who was a special education teacher and Assistant Director of Special Education, and someone who did get extended time with the 504 in high school and on my SATs, I disagree that it 100% always creates anxiety. I believe that it does work for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone with ADHD, because it's not a one size fits all. Is that if you prompt and redirect and do a separate process system that kind of goes hand in hand with what you were saying in asking the right questions to help the person kind of overcome, or not like get to that next level.

Jeff Copper: 23:46

So I want to acknowledge a few things, and for podcast purposes and for simplicity, we generalize a little bit, because I can get I can make this far more complicated than it is a when I was talking about extra time, and when I spoke to the research I was talking about test time I have that I can send you that as soon as the internet that's got that the extra time in terms of, hey, to do homework or stuff, I believe I don't have that research. Specifically I don't have it that says it doesn't, but I do know is that it, it is takes me longer to do with things, and I get more exhausted as a result of some of it. So I need to be careful with regard to that, because you have a point. But I do simplify these things just for the purposes of kind of what we're doing to kind of move that forward. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that helped me find this out, or discover this is I'm just tell a simple story, because we prefer things that are tangible. We dismiss the abstract. And I remember about 12 years ago, I got a phone call, as I normally do in December for the freshmen that went to school that were like a students, and they had a lot of help, and now they're on academic probation. So I meet this mother and her student at a coffee shop, and I can tell this kid has to talk out loud quite a bit, and somehow she mentioned he's got a time coach. And I said. Well, yeah, I'm sure that he works really well when he's meeting with the time coach, but doesn't at all when he's not. And she looked at me like, as if to say, How did you know that? And I said, Well, time coach is working with a planner that's tangible. What's working is not the planner, it's the conversation that he's having about his day and what he's going to do. And she looked at me, and I'm like, Yeah, so when he's engaged in a conversation, he's actually talking his way through it, and that's really sticking when he's not talking and he's got the planner, he's having a hard time. Time is really a visual image. You're trying you're seeing the future a little bit. It's kind of hard for me to describe that in the time that we have. And she was like, Yeah, I like, just call him up in the morning. So what are you going to do today? And it was working like a charm. And the reason I'm saying this is, in our last interview, I said there's a lot of intangible accommodations that are kind of hidden in plain sight that we dismiss. And I'm using this as an example, as is having this prompts or sometimes there's some skills training that we do that externalize it, and sometimes you're actually engaging in oral conversations. If you understand the premise, you can begin to see sometimes, oh, it's the externalization of it. But sometimes there's conversation at different pieces of it that kind of move forward, as opposed to just sitting by yourself in a room. So we can start talking about in mind and out of mind. That's a complicated conversation, so I kind of keep it relatively simple. But if a person with ADHD is problem solving out of mind, for our purposes this, I'm generalizing they're as good as anybody else. It's when they are on their own, which, by the way, we talked about this last time, Annie Rogers once said ADHD is amplified or muted based off of the environment. If you're interacting with people and you're problem solving, it's kind of you have the accommodations. If you're all by yourself, you're not. I mean, I remember when covid happened, I thought I was gonna be out of a job, but my phone lit up like a Christmas tree because everybody was sent home away from director oral conversations, they thought they had motivation problems and productivity problems, like, No, you just lost your accommodation. It was like, effectively, that was really there. And so with all that said, what I'm my hope is that this is a new lens, that we can take a look at the same problems and begin to see it a little bit differently and not look at people at ADHD as unmotivated. They're very motivated. It just takes more effort to compensate from that impairment. And let's be kind to them and actually look at accommodations that can relieve the impairment. It's a change the way we go about it. We've already talked about directorial conversations. I mean, there's other things. I call it cueing, and then toggling is another real problem with regard to working memory. But the the notion of it is, if you look at is this two, four system based off of Dr Barclay's model, you can begin to see, oh, it looks really differently, and it can explain other anomalies. Now I want to go back to something else that you had brought up. If you look at this way, it changes the game a little bit. We use thoughts when we think, but we think in different ways, like when you worry, you're thinking, when you're daydreaming, you're thinking. We're not using really any executive functions. There's really no effort. I would actually say it's hard to stop worrying when you're feeling judging or forming an opinion, you don't even have to prove it. You can just jump to a conclusion. There's not a lot of effort in that. When you learn you're digesting discrete pieces of information and you're using executive functions with the purpose of understanding it. This is getting more cognitively difficult at this point in time. Contemplative thinking, where you're looking at data and trying to form a hypothesis is actually becoming more it's more graduate level. But when you cross into problem solving, that's the application of knowledge. You're taking what you've learned and you're applying it to something that's multifaceted and ambiguous in solving the problem and in this new model, if you look at it that way, a lot of people with ADHD, when they're problem solving and it's cognitively effortful, they'll escape often to go learn. So think of a financial planner doing a report, or a student doing a report, they'll go do more research to learn more about the topic, because it's cognitively easier, it's giving them the illusion that they're working on their paper, but through this lens, it's really escaped from that discomfort. Why is that relevant? Well, it changes the way we go about it. Because if we can provide the accommodation, there's less of an urge to escape the learning, or that notion they're escaping to something shiny and new. I would argue that learning continues to the point in time where the amount of cognitive effort exceeds the reward. It becomes uncomfortable, and they bounce off to something shiny and new. But if we can go back and provide those accommodations, I would argue many times they can go further than what they did. Four. That's why this is different, is it changes the way we look at it. It changes our approach, and it can change some of the outcomes by just looking at it as this two, four system.

Brooke Schnittman: 30:11

So Jeff, for layman's terms, you said that someone who has to do their taxes might scroll on social media instead, maybe they'll start doing their taxes, and then they'll move into social media or vice versa. What do you do? Can you provide a real example of what you say, what you're like? Simulate an experience of someone going through your program who is having difficulty in the moment doing their taxes?

Jeff Copper: 30:46

Can somebody help you? Sit down talk to about it. I got this. I got

Brooke Schnittman: 30:50

while doing their taxes, or before they're doing their taxes, both

Jeff Copper: 30:55

like, let's let's talk. Let's break this down the first part of taxes, particularly now, in the old days, it all kind of came in the mail, but a lot of times now you've got to go get stuff. Now, remember, multifaceted and big goes well, what do I need for my taxes? I need my w2 I don't know. 1099, I forgot I had an HSA, like, I don't know. So you're like, I don't even know what to look for. Sitting down with somebody and talking through that, having them prompt you of like, Oh, hey, we've got this data, and you're talking to us now you've identified what you're looking for. Where you go find it like, I got to go to this website, where's my username, where's my password. That engagement in that conversation process is relieving it's making it easier. Don't get me wrong. Taxes are not they're kind of a pain in the butt. But having somebody with you as you're talking you as you're talking your way through that is alleviating it. And I can almost guarantee is, if you've got somebody, you might not get it all done, but you're going to go a hell of a lot further than if you're just doing it on your own, because sitting there trying to retrieve that tough is cognitively difficult, and so the person will end up go doing something else as a result, their taxes, you know, they're not done for four or five years. But if you take a look at the majority of people, and by the way, I am speaking in generalities, there are exceptions to this, but by and large, if you've got somebody that's walking through with it, with it, most people with ADHD will get substantially more done than they would on their own. I was given a presentation to the ADHD coaches organization in August about the intangible accommodations. We talked about, about oral conversation. And I remember going through it with a lot of people. Their eyeballs were lighting up, and one woman goes but I coach a lot of writers that are isolated. What do they do? And I remember just blatantly saying they suffer. And I like 50 people, like, you could see this, this visceral, like reaction from all of them on the screen all at one time. And I go, Well, I know you're having an emotional reaction to this, but what do I do if I don't have my glasses, I don't read like, I'm not going to do it like there's an impairment here. And I was like, they were struggling with it. But it's been interesting since that time, I've had a couple reach it out, like, well, you know, it really, really works. The issue really is you have to build this into your world. So this is an emotional issue when you'd have to, like, that's another thing that we'd have to get into is because people don't want to, need to do this, even though that it works. And so I'm trying to make the case that if this is an impairment, and if these accommodations work. You might not want to use them well, that's fine, but I think that you're going to find that you're going to suffer, whereas if you own it and you get it, you'll do well. And I argue that the majority of people like yourself and some other people that are experts at some level have let go and have help at some level that are helping you kind of go forward. And there's this people out there that know a ton about ADHD, but they're still trying to be like a neurotypical. It's the ones that let that go and own it that then they kind of cross over. I mean, I remember years ago, I got dyslexia. I can't spell anything. I just kind of gave up. Like, if you got a problem with me spelling, like you got bigger issues to do. Oh, my God. It was so freeing when I got to that. And I got, I got people that check my work all the time for some of that stuff. So I know that there's an emotional reaction by people with ADHD that don't want to need to do this. But if you look around and really pay attention to the evidence is overwhelming. So let's go a step further. You have problems in every domain of your life, school, work, psychological, society, family, at school, when you have a problem, what's the go to solution. Go talk to the teacher. Teacher, talk to a tutor. Go to a special ed teacher. At work, you go talk to your boss. At first, you go talk to a mentor. You go to teams. If it's psychological, you go talk to a therapist. You go talk to a coach. If it's something else, you go to family members, if it's whatever, you go to customer services to have used to be about direct oral conversations to solve problems. I don't know about you, but it's convenient for them if they don't talk to you and they're shutting off. And I I got tons of people with ADHD that they got a problem, and it's too difficult to figure out what the hell they're talking about in the F. The Q page because they don't answer it, and you can't get to a human being anymore, so they just don't do it. And so my point really is it's there further. Let's go another step, life coaching. Think about it. It came about not because people needed therapy or they needed mentors. These were people, ordinary people, that were stuck, stuck in life. They just needed somebody to ask them questions. Life Coaching is the Socratic method. The answer is in the question, they just needed somebody to have a direct oral conversation with who would ask them questions for them to figure it out. So I'm arguing life coaching was born for the sole reason that we need to have direct oral conversation to solve these problems, which brings all kinds of validity to what we're doing now, having direct oral conversations at one level, but with coaching, there's some belief stuff. So I want to make a distinction, but I'm just sharing all this is evidence that would support what we're talking about that would make it easier.

Brooke Schnittman: 35:59

Yeah, so really what this is doing, because there's a lot of thoughts coming into my head while you were speaking. Yes, our teachers, our parents, our mentors, they can act our as our executive function when we are younger, because our executive functions aren't fully developed. But what this questioning method is that we do in coaching too, and is supported by that, from what I'm hearing, it's really helping the person initiate and see it through. So they are using their own executive functions and strengthening their executive function so it does become more powerful. And if they continue to practice this, then you know you can enhance it. But it is just getting them to start, because otherwise they don't know the first step, because there's so many different pieces to it. Yeah.

Jeff Copper: 36:46

So let's, let's, it's not uncommon. Brooke, you come home like you got a complicated family, you got a lot going on. I don't know this to be for sure, but let's say this generic is it's Friday, like you come home from work, you're transitioning for work into the weekend, and you turn to your significant other and say, let's talk about what we're gonna do this weekend. Okay? That happens in houses all over the place. Now, sometimes you have different styles and stuff like that. For many people, they do that and actually helps them gain clarity on what they're gonna do for the weekend. You don't need a coach for this. You just need to sit down. I need goal directed thinking, let's kind of talk through what we're gonna do and what's the sequence? Sometimes you get to the point in time where you don't get it all resolved, because you usually run into ambiguity. But the point really is, this happens in households all over the place, but people aren't as conscious about it. Why I'm saying is, if you're conscious about it, and you sit down and say, Listen, I just need some help. Let's talk through the weekend of what we're going to do, not as a emotional thing, but legitimate is what you got. This is what I got. How we're going to do that is you now you're engaging. That's not a coach, and it happens in households across America. ADHD or not, it's there. So it's just, I'm trying to bring legitimacy to it's a it's a realistic, viable accommodation for people with ADHD to provide relief to the impairment.

Brooke Schnittman: 38:03

Is the goal? Or maybe there isn't a goal. I obviously, you know if, if you can't see, you need glasses. If you can't hear, you speak in sign language, you might have it, yes, a hearing device. My question being someone practices being prompted with questions, and then they get started, right? Do they do all people need the accommodations forever? Or are they practicing and hearing the types of questions that are being provided and they can self coach themselves afterwards?

Jeff Copper: 38:36

Okay, so that's an interesting question. So we're getting a little more complicated. Typically, when you're really addressing something new, that you're trying to solve a problem, it's hard to get away from this. If it's a reoccurring problem over a period of time, you get to where you construct kind of a mental model of what that is and your need for it is left it's kind of like Mad Libs. You get to where you're not having to rewrite the whole thing, you're just plugging a word in like, what's the adjective, or whatever? That's actually making it cognitively easier. When you think about it, AI on one level, it's like, Hey, here's five points. Would you write a letter to Brooke that communicates that B? When I'm doing that, I'm just giving it the points, and AI is actually doing the executive functioning for me. So it's an A because I'm not actually having to figure out a way to articulate it right, although more and more you have to think about the prompts that you're putting into AI to get out the right output. So there's this, this thing that's there. But my point really is it starts to get kind of complicated. But when I go back to Director oral conversation, the thing about that is, when I'm talking to you, Brooke, I might be explaining something to you. Look like this. You're telling me, Jeff, that makes no sense. You're not saying it, but you're communicating. I'll correct myself in the middle. But if you're like like that, I go, Oh my god, I'm on it. So it kind of helps guide you a little bit. When you're talking to somebody, I. About what you're talking about, if it makes some sense. And so at one level, some people need it, and they need a lot of it. At other level, we start going to it's not novel. It's not you've done this before, the need of it goes less. There are some people, not a lot, that actually can just do it by talking to themselves, where they're kind of answering their own questions. The key to remember is the focus is internal versus external. That's that de Marc Haitian I'm talking about. So, like, if you get timelines out, you write it down on a piece of paper. If you're that type of person, or, by the way, people that journal you're writing out loud, you're right not to have the thoughts, is not to think, but you write it down. It helps you collect your thoughts, because you're externalizing it. That's how I feel in mind mapping too exactly you're getting it out of your head. You're doing out of mind. Now, a lot of people with ADHD, they don't it's too tedious and boring, because they're boredom and tolerant by writing all that type of stuff down. But now we can explain why that works, or why mind mapping works. Now you might get all your ideas out on the piece of paper, like that's all there. Now I got to organize them and synthesize them in a way that's where you might have to interact with some people to say, what if I organized it this way, or what if I organized it that way? And you're getting feedback, because you can organize anything multiple ways. The question is, what makes the set most sense for this right now? But this goes back to the fundamental thing, what I'm grateful for you allowing me to put this out there for you, everybody to judge? I mean, you can think I'm crazy, but I'm just saying this is what I'm presenting. You can judge it's on its own merit, but when you look at it, it's fascinating that if we can actually bring this to everyday people, neurotypicals, where they understand it and it becomes normal. Imagine going to work, and somebody sits down and say, Hey, like, I go to work. And somebody says, Jeff, what do you got to get do today? Well, I got to do this. What's hard? What's going to get your way? Is it possible for you to do all that stuff? They're not solving the problem. They're not doing the thinking for me, talking it out. They're just helping me. That can be a huge difference, and I'm going to argue that it does happen in everyday life right now. It's just you're not paying attention to it. You nobody defined if you're looking at it. And my goal is to if we could provide this out there, we can de stigmatize this, and we can provide relief and have a really profound impact on people that struggle.

Brooke Schnittman: 42:15

So would you say that most ADHD ers are verbal processors?

Jeff Copper: 42:21

I don't think that's fair to say that, because, you know, it's, you know, when you've seen one person with ADHD, you've seen them all. But I would say most of them have to think out, I mean, problem solve out of mine. And I guess maybe, yeah, let's say we're 50% maybe more are that get some benefit from, oh, by the way, just, you know, you might spend a lot of time by yourself and go, I'm not talking out loud, but it's the conversation that I had with Brooke where I had the aha. Now it's clear, oh, now I can go do it. It's that Aha sometimes that you need to process with the people. That makes a lot of sense. When that clicks, it's just a route of just getting it out of your head. Write it down narratively. So be careful about what I'm saying is because it's not like you always have to be there. I mean, I remember coaching a woman, she was having to do an application on something, and she just sat in a room with her husband, and she said this word, what do you think that word is? It was an interpretation issue. Then she asked him, hey, about something else. And all of a sudden, she got it done. There wasn't much interaction, or before the pandemic, I was coaching this woman about, like, go, look at procrastination. It's really ambiguous. She's arguing with me. Lockdown hit, and I got a text, oh my God, and I called her up. I go, What do you mean? Oh, my God, I could. I'm sitting here doing a procedure on the computer, and I forgot his step, and I realized normally I lean over to like, somebody next to him, and I asked him, and I have the answer within two seconds, and I'm right back in business. Well, today, she sent an instant message to somebody sat there for a couple minutes, didn't know if the person's at the desk even looking or whatever, went up to go get a cup of coffee and never went back. And now we talked about it, and said, hey, the answer is on the company's intranet somewhere, but she didn't know really where it was. And I'm sharing this. This is a moment, a my Microsoft moment in what could be four hours, which is the difference between productivity and not just because there's somebody there to have that oral conversation with or and forgive the vulgarity of this. It's the shortest way I can describe it. Woman walks in ask her husband, what's on TV? He said, dust. That's when the fight started. So what's on TV? The content of the Flintstones or the dust? Often you're online and you're like, what does that mean? I need an but they don't define the words and you can't talk to anybody. These are the paper cuts that are the difference between ADHD productivity and not just saying, hey, Brooke, what do you think they mean by this? If you say what I think that's giving me validation, if it's contradiction is there that sounds small, but it's huge in terms of ADHD productivity. And again, it all goes back to that clarity and ambigu. Me, how do I interpret something?

Brooke Schnittman: 45:01

Etc, yeah. So what you're saying for everyone listening right now is that motivation can be enhanced with ADHD through questioning, and we know that emotions lie not only in the automatic nervous part of the brain, but it also lies in the executive function part of the brain. And we are not lazy with ADHD. We're just motivated on something different, and you help to Yeah, I'm saying

Jeff Copper: 45:32

you're as motivated as anybody else, but you need adaptive accommodations for the impairment. If you get adaptive accommodations for the impairment, you can form just like everybody else, and you'll find you're motivated like everybody else. That's the trick. You got to get the adapt the accommodations that relieve the the impairment. That's the key difference. And if you do that, you're going to motivate you like, look at you. I mean, you've kind of built an empire over there, right? And I know you got a team of stuff that you work with and that stuff so you're highly, highly motivated. There's been times in your life, I don't, we haven't talked about, I think that you struggled at some point in time. I know I did, but I don't know that. But I would argue a lot of times is when you were off on your own. So the idea really is, oh, yeah, you're highly I

Brooke Schnittman: 46:13

need a team. Yep, I need a team. I talk things out all the time with my assistant. For example, today we had our meeting. We have a bi weekly meeting. And I just put an idea on there, and I said, Okay, so I just need you to stay here for a second while I talk this out. How does this sound? And I hear myself talk. Then she'll give me some pointers, or say, yes, no, like, essentially she's doing exactly what you're talking about. And then the idea comes to fruition, because it's something that is chopped out. Yesterday I spoke with to my coaches and to my assistants, and we were talking about a new model of coaching that we're doing, and we talked out all the details I saw, things that I couldn't have seen without. So it's problem solving with other people. 100% that's a perfect example. Yes, yes. Yes. I also, to this point, a lot of people love body doubling with ADHD and a unique type of body doubling where you don't just stay quiet while the other person does a thing is talking things out like this, right? Okay, what are you going to do? How are you going to do it? When is it going to be done? And then the person goes back and forth, so both people can get the thing done that they want to get done. So I know that's very helpful for a lot of my clients as well.

Jeff Copper: 47:25

So I That's just funny. People call me up and I say, oh, what's your expectation of what I'm going to do? That would help you. It's one of my favorite questions. And some people go, I need accountability. And I go, Well, why don't you go call your mother, like, if you think about it, having somebody nag you, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you kind of avoid those people. However, if you're with somebody, you're talking through the problem. That's not accountability, that's a thinking problem. Don't confuse the two, because if you say, I need accountability, people are going to nag you. You're asking for the wrong thing. If you say, I need a thinking partner, right? It'll work. And I do a lot of if you look through this lens at that, you can begin to see these small distinctions that are huge, that define not that it works, but why it's working. And again, I go back to that, and your example of what you talked about is perfect. I routinely get on zoom with my assistant, and I just go through my inbox talking about, I got this. I get so much more done. I don't really think that she even needs to see it, but I'm, I'm I'm referencing it sometimes, and it's a whole heck of a lot easier. And so one of my hopes is that a if you have ADHD, you're motivated, highly motivated, you're just having to overcome this invisible impairment that nobody can see. Don't let society beat you up. Number two, amen, get the accommodations. I know it's hard. There's ways that people, I always tell people, you know, Brook, has anybody ever come with you in their entire life and said, can I talk through something, or can I talk out loud? And you had the time if you didn't have time understand? And you said, No, like in your lifetime, I think you'd be surprised that gut punch, yeah, yeah. Most people

Brooke Schnittman: 49:02

don't. It barely doesn't happen, right, exactly.

Jeff Copper: 49:05

And so there's a lot of people with ADC but, but I can't do that. Well, no, you can't. So I, when I'm coaching a lot of people, I'm like, we've got to build your board of directors, right? A group of people that you can call up and say, Hey, you got a minute. I just need to think out loud, and you can reciprocate for them, it's doable. It does take a little bit of effort, but I think that you'll find, if you build your board of directors, it will be infinitely easier than just slogging it out on your own. So 100%

Brooke Schnittman: 49:31

and you've helped me do that with my bullying survey, so appreciate that.

Jeff Copper: 49:35

Actually, that was funny. If we can talk about that, I'm a big fan of yours. You had this great thing, and I said, Come on my podcast. I want you to talk about this thing first. I only ask you a whole bunch of questions. Why don't you go back and read it? I did that deliberate, you know, because I wanted you to talk about it, to get your head around a little bit that was very intentional, very and look what happened. You published with it here pretty soon, which is, it's a spectacular piece. And then the sequel that we did was also spectacular. The band was actually just brilliant. So anyway,

Brooke Schnittman: 50:03

I can't wait to listen to it, but Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your excellence and your grace in the challenging questions and back and forth that we have. I think this is definitely a safe place and it's an open place, and I appreciate you bringing new knowledge and new nuggets to the community. I know this is going to land really well with our community, so appreciate your time.

Jeff Copper: 50:31

I got it. Let me get this back. Is number one. I'm so grateful for having me on but I'm also grateful most hosts won't ask questions like, you're like, I'm going to challenge you. I thank you for doing that. I thank you for doing that for two reasons. Number one, I need to be challenged, but your listeners also, they're questioning this thing too, and I'm saying you're bold enough to do that. Most people wouldn't do that, and that's why I consider you such a thought leader. You're questioning this stuff rightfully so. So thank you.

Brooke Schnittman: 51:00

Thank you. And I know we're going to put in the show notes, but where can people find you and learn about the program? Dig coaching.com.

Jeff Copper: 51:09

Is my website. If you just go to cognitive ergonomics.com that will take you straight to the page. You can find it on my website. You can also get to my website, YouTube channel, that kind of stuff there. But dig coaching.com is the best place

Brooke Schnittman: 51:21

to go. Awesome. Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey, and if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke, and remember, it's Brooke with an E. Thanks again for listening. See you next time you.