Which Golden Rule Do You Follow?

The week's discussion centers on the pursuit of power, with Ricky and Shelley questioning the sustainability of the integration model and discussing the need for new political approaches, including "voluntary separation." 

We pay tribute to Reverend Jesse Jackson, remembering his dedication to "Education, hope, and the continuous fight for equality and power. 

Finally, we offer a critique of "late-stage capitalism" in America, which Ricky Jones argues is causing the economic collapse of institutions due to concentrated capital and systemic exploitation.

Follow us and continue the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, and  LinkedIn.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, world, and welcome to Shelley's Plug Live. The Topic of Tough Topics hosted by Dr. Shelley Stewart. Shelley started broadcasting in 1949, and he has been on a journey to discover the truth for humanity ever since. And at 91 years of age, Shelley still sits down before the microphone as he pursues answers to tough topics, challenging us to change the experience of being human and our outlook on humanity. Ladies and gentlemen, I am honored to present the newest member of the Radio Hall of Fame and the oldest podcaster in the world. Get ready. Here comes Dylan.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

And I said, I said, but uh, you come on out with your cameras. And I got up and went to the den and I sat down for a minute uh and to talk to them with me because I don't I'm not one who make up or make up stuff. You know, a lot of us have to someone's dead. They tell them how many times they had dinner together and all those things. But uh I'm not that way. I don't go to funerals and tell lies about the they left me this or they left me that. I'm not that I don't do that for you. But uh I will do. And I did do uh this thing for Jesse because he asked me, and I know that views and points and the likes. But I will tell you right now, there's no perfect human being on this earth. None but you love. Jesse, I knew Jackson, which I told me. Yes, I knew Jesse very well. As a matter of fact, Jesse, I think about five years younger than I. I used to we we called him Young Blood, you know, when we first came to Alabama, came out of South Carolina. Yeah. Handsome brother, you know, play football and stuff, you know, overhead in Muslim. And I'm a young broadcaster at that time, Shelley. They had just given me that name, she had as a Playboy of five years before then. And uh, but uh Martin, uh I said, learn learned who I was and Jesse in Alabama after uh about five or six, seven years of fighting, Red Show to work and and uh the the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. That was the organization that uh that I was aware of before Martin Luther King Jr. ever came to into being. I was in the 50s. Uh uh Jesse came in, Mike uh Stu Clerk Carmichael and other guys out of South Carolina. They everybody was coming over to this side, and there I was on the air at that time. Uh, and I was saying things that other Negro uh jocks, call them jocks that would not do. They said I was a nut. I would, you know, bull on her, I would, I would mess with Bull, he would mess with me, and uh that was George Wise. I was messing with him because I was open open on the air saying things and had a large white audience. That's one thing I had uh because my music and my conversation in the 50s was for people. I talked to people and talked to the black folks, so I talked to people. I played music, but I talked to everybody about the quality of life. And uh Jesse happened to be in that first group. Uh uh believe uh all the young guys. I just happened to be with that group. That you see, Mark, you see that picture up there? Yeah, over there. That one with Jesse. Yes, that one. You see how young I was he? Jesse. Uh Jesse, very young old black. Big Aaron, big Aaron on that picture. I know. But uh, yeah, Jesse and I were getting very close friends. Uh I would uh disagree with some things that Jesse would do because he would come at the meeting sometime later than the others would come in, yeah, and we tell him jump on him on the level and Jose and all that group. We get on him, he'd come in later after the press conference, something like that. But Jesse always had one thing he in his in his mind education and hope. Education and hope. That's one thing we call Jesse up to speak on. Education hope. That was one thing that Jesse Jackson had hope on. And uh, if anyone, I think that uh hope alive was one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

So well, you know, last week we were saying we we ended by saying that we talked about the golden rule, and the guy with the gold makes the rules, right? Right, and and we are seeing a lot of that in in politics right now, because the country is being run by the rich.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, let me get to Jesse. So, Jesse, of all the things that uh people do, Jesse Jackson makes some good God, more good than anything you can you can talk about. Focus education, equality for all people. That's one thing that uh I will stand to this day on Jesse Jackson. Look at that at money. Uh people said the golden rule. So I I was the money. I don't do that to me or any of them. Anybody who lives, if you gave them money, they'd never give it right back to you. I mean, if somebody gives you five thousand dollars, eighteen cents, I just want to give it to you. I like what you're doing. You never give it back to them. Come on, so what I'm saying is I I don't like when people start accusing people, some people who are hustling. I no question about really mean anything about the hospital. So uh Jesse was that yeah, I think that talked about and to it and stood up to it now, student of education, the message of Jesse. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Um, if I could say this, because I think it's important before we move beyond Jesse Jackson, if if we move beyond Reverend Jackson in the in this episode, and we certainly can spend the whole episode on him because I think he's that pivotal in American history, right? Uh, but but first, we didn't take, at least I did not take time during our episode last week to say how happy I am to have you back. You know, that that's that's that's really, really important. Um, certainly for the show, because you bring a totally different element to it. And I've said for the longest, I think this is the most conscious father-son podcast in the world because me studying history and teaching about it at the college level, but it brings such a different thing having you have lived it, right? So I teach about Jesse Jackson, but you knew Jesse Jackson well. I met Reverend Jackson a few times, but didn't know him anyway that obviously I know you. So it's great having you back for that political, historical acumen, but also great to just have you back personally, you know, because you're my father. So there's an emo, an emotion, you know, um element around that part of it. Um, but also as you bring up Reverend Jackson, you know, there's a through line here with his family and ours, uh, for people uh to know that we certainly know it. You haven't known him really well, um, a guy who settled down and made his bones in Chicago, had his children there. I'm now um headed into a position at Simmons College of Kentucky, where I'm a distinguished professor in the Jesse Lewis Jackson Center for Racial Justice. So that's named for him. Connected to Jonathan Jackson, his son Jonathan, uh, my daughter, your granddaughter Jordan, is headed to the University of Chicago in the fall. The school sits in Jonathan Jackson's district. So Jesse's son Jonathan has said to me, Send Jordan to me. We need to get her to intern. So there's a connection between, you know, the Stuart Jones clan and the Jackson clan, which I think is is really important. And and lastly, you know, losing Reverend Jackson, we we we've lost just another um voice and another mind that has a longitudinal memory of black struggle. And I don't even get involved in the conversations with people about, well, you know, you know, Jesse did this, Jesse did. I'm like, look, you talk about the stuff that you have questions about at this moment. I'm going to remember the dedication that he had to black people, equality and power. And if all of us had that level of dedication, I think we'd be much further along. So much to that, bro.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

I think that we looked at uh the history of the right for quality of life in this country. Uh listening to the podcast that we had uh with uh Jose Williams. Uh we talked about Jesse was there with my hand with us. Uh all of us had the same thing. The only thing problem we had with it was the split up for individuals after Martin died. Martin said, don't do it. That's the only issue. That's the only issue.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

And they all did it. And they all did it. They all split up.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

That's what I have an issue there. Well, Martin, don't y'all split up on your own. And that's what we and Jessie's one of them. And just and I talked about it quite frankly. Uh, we didn't hide that. But just stay focused on the part that he was good at, yes. Everybody had their face and the thing to do. He did his part there, and I surprised I support him there. Now, yeah, I know Miss Son, uh, I knew about the kid. He's I call him a kid. He's a little job, the job of that Chicago, Illinois. Very proud of him. Yeah, I'm very proud of Tell him so. Yeah, yeah. Tell him I am. But uh it doesn't make any difference with, but the issue now is that what we're going through, having to fight for the same things that the fights for uh I'm gonna give you an example. There's an article here that I keep doing to people that want to do it. I tell them all of the war, we talked for wars. Uh I am a fighter in thought. I'm the Korean War. Matter of fact, for yourself, if you want to catch my records, I was the base flight clerk. You understand? At the Niagara Air Force Base, F-86Ds fly out of uh protecting this country. I was the base flight clerk there. That older brother has died a year before that in Korea, November 6, 1951, fighting for this country. Uh yes, I fought in my own way, and then I got into trouble with the military because I stood up for who happened to be like, but I didn't let it stop me. They said I was a nut. Uh we don't want him to fight any more jokes. We want to promote him out of here. So I know how to do is promote you to get you out. So I'm one who was promoted uh at 86 D's uh but yeah, they said I was the man's out of here at the same time. Uh I told I came back and they were fighting, they started fighting the war now. I hold in my hand. This article here was in Jet magazine September 5, 1963. This article appeared in Jet magazine. And the reason they had bickered it and they buried the record, and son, I don't know whether I told you this before, but my son, my brother was killed in November of 1951. I came out the military and I came in Alabama. I became Shelley the Playboy. I'm gonna read to you an article. The veterans of foreign wars broke his policy of segregation and segregated districts when two Negro posts in Alabama were assigned to previously all white districts. Chicken Stewart post 8037 of Birmingham, Alabama, and Alexander post 8037 of Birmingham and uh about Montevideo rather, were they demolished. These posts were demolished, 8037, I could start post of Birmingham, and the post in Montevideo, Alabama were disposed of and taken out of the records in the country because they were Negro Real. Icky Stewart, my brother Hugh Jerome Stewart Jr., I was the organizer of that post of the VFW because they would not let black people in the VFW. So this is nothing new to me. Uh this is 1963, Jet Magazine called it, and they published it that it happened, but you can't find a record of picking to Coast 8037 in the United States. So I say these things because how history has been destroyed. Uh true history has been destroyed. Uh and uh I'm not trying to bring up old stuff. I'm just saying let's talk about the good small stuff. All of it. Don't talk about all you want, but all of it. Uh country. All of us got some dirty things in our closet personally. But when it talks about the country and dealing with people, we all have no problem with, okay. I I'm I'm not perfect. Am I a racist? I didn't have to say I'm racist, I don't I don't like racism. So I may be a racist because I don't like racism. You understand how you you're you're racist because you don't like racism. I love white people, black people, I love white people, but the way you care about your your policies, I disagree. And that's about your money, your power. Okay, guys. You you guys jumped here.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Oh wow. I think we were talking about um speaking of money and power, that um a lot of the country is being run by that, and what can we do about it? Um, I think the the other challenges is that not only is where the money is coming from and what it's around. And a lot of it is around technology and things that control a lot of a lot of people. Um but I was wondering, you know, is the is the answer to that popularity? You know, did you you became powerful because you were popular, because you were well known, you were well liked, you you you gained traction that way, people listen to your message. Um again, it's a scary challenge that's what's going on now, too, because of money. Money is buying that power, money is buying the media, it's buying the word that's getting out there, and it and that it's having a lot of um what's going on with the message that's being controlled.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

So that's a lot of fear too. Yeah. Uh there are some people who uh actually in positions that shouldn't be there. Yeah. Uh and they're fear of losing it because of in the position where they can throw money into the wrong hands. They're in position, there. Right. There's some black people who were put in a deep position, had no damn real right or reason to be in those positions. They were black. And so uh, you know, they couldn't, but some of them, I just cut the position out. Couldn't some of those who weren't doing anything go cut them out. You understand, Ricky. Uh there's some people in the right positions doing wrong things.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

I think there's a very different discussion that's that's on the horizon here in America, Pop and Mark. As folk talk so much about money, they basically talk about um capitalism. They don't really study capitalism. And a lot of scholars are saying what we are seeing is kind of late-stage capitalism happening in America right now, where we're seeing now American institutions from corporations, look at all the businesses that are just shutting down or their profit margins are growing slimmer and slimmer. You're looking at higher education, where I am already underfunded by the states because the states don't have the revenue that they um should have at this point in American history, and the schools themselves don't have a ton of money. What's bringing attention to the schools obviously is athletics. There was a very troubling, not to me, but a troubling article uh written um last week by the president, athletics director, and chair of the board of trustees here at the University of Louisville, not just talking about Louisville, but talking about schools like Ohio State, the year that Ohio State won the national championship in football, the athletics department was like$300 and something million dollars in the hole. Well, that's really not just about they think this is about sports. I'm saying this is what we're seeing is kind of an economic collapse of many American institutions. And what are the capitalists gonna do when all of their capital is gone? Because all of this money is being concentrated in a smaller and smaller number of people up top, and that gap between the haves and the have nots is really, really growing. And so it's gonna become a very, very different conversation in America, I think. You know, politicians are talking about they can't even fund Social Security past a certain point. People's pension programs are being taken from them. Healthcare is incredibly problematic, even though nobody wants to talk about it. As people age, if they don't have money put away, you know, how are they gonna be taken care of in this country? You know, they can't be in a nice place in their twilight years. They're in these, you know, trappy uh uh nursing homes. There is a ton that's happening. While some of us are doing decently well, we really, really need to have some different conversations about what naked American capitalism that is rooted in exploiting as many people as possible is doing to the country. So it ain't just about people not knowing what to do if they're in positions to have a little bit of money. It's a question of this country not having much money left as we move along.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

That's a nice way to think about it. That's a nice them that's got is them that get, though.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Yeah, I mean to a degree, but but But you know, I think, I don't think it's a sustainable model as people talk about oh, the middle class is being wiped out. We farther down that road than folks think. I mean, the yawning gap between some of these corporate CEOs, the salaries that they're making, and everybody else downstream what they're making. People are really, really struggling. They're really, really struggling. And again, I ask people look around you. Look at all of these businesses from grocery stores, you know, to restaurants, to clothing stores, to television stations, radio stations closing down or combining. Look at how media is being absolutely coalesced around just a few people, the Ellisons and others. CBS is in effect, state-sponsored media, and all of these things are connected. So, yeah, the the Trumps are getting really, really rich. Now, what do you do? The Bezos family is getting really, really rich. But how long can they maintain it?

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Okay, you're you're 58, you're 65. What do you do now? You see these things happening. What do you suggest be done?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

You as an individual, you as an individual, me as an individual. My point is this, Pop, the people need to have some different conversations, right? As folk are having conversations about academic departments at universities, and they're doing that here at the University of Louisville, having questions about whether a department is sustainable because it doesn't have enough majors or minors. I'm like, no, you need to have a conversation about whether your university is sustainable. Because the only reason they're talking about whether or not departments are sustainable or not is because the university does not have enough operating capital to continue in a country that's functioning and turning an educational institution into a business. Same thing has happened in churches. What happens? Of course, churches always have a business. I mean, churches always have a business element to them in the black community. You know, every church got a building fund, you got to keep the lights on. You want it to be cool when it's hot outside, you want it to be warm when it's cold outside. But what happens when a church becomes a business? Is it then a church? Is it still a church, or is it something else? And so I think we talk about money so much, and this is going back to you know, this economic power and equality argument that Jesse Jackson and others have made. I think that we're reaching a point in the society where our conversations need to be more about instance, the viability of institutions than the viability of individuals, if I'm making myself clear.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

You opened the door, I think about four or five minutes, okay. Uh I came up at times when the black church was very important to the roads in the black community, the black church. Uh you just said just a minute ago in your conversation, the statements rather than conversation, that the church I mean more of a business than a church. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Well, I was using I was using it as an example, Pop. I don't want I don't want the church folks to get mad at me now. I'm not saying that all the churches have become businesses and they are here hustling you for your money. I was just using that as an example, saying what happens if the business side of the church over overrides the religious function. So, whatever you say about the church, old man, whatever you say about the black church from this point forward, I want to be clear to the to the plumb line listeners that is not me, it is my father. He is back on the air. Oh, I'm using his thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

I'm asking a question here. And the question I'm asking you and asking America, has the black church been in point the life, and how the role of the black church is? That's all I'm saying. I didn't say anything. I'm just asking the question. Uh I had some, I will say this. I talked to some uh black preachers, they said, well, you see, Shelley, uh our white churches, our white churches, they expanded and uh they they're in business. I'm just gonna tell you, I'm talking to some guys who are pastors. They tell me the white folks. The white folks are they won, they got they got mega churches. So we need to get some mega churches. Make a business at the church. Now, um I'm just telling you, man, I haven't starting no trouble.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

This episode is not about the black church problem.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

You know, uh sometimes there's a guy says, I want to turn my collar around backwards and make me some money. So you know what I mean, you know, and the streets are ricky, you know. Yeah, I know. When I say, well, guys, I gotta turn the collar around backwards, I can make some money. No, I said that because that's a major question. The role of the church, how the black church has influenced their lives individually, and how the role has shifted. That's all.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah, yeah. It's a good idea. I think I think I think I think that's another episode of the plumb line.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

So another episode of the plum line. Uh and uh also uh I'm gonna have some other people tick to with me. Has the legacy of athletes like Mohammed Ali, Jim Brown, LeBron James, and Serena Williams, have they done their part in helping the majority of black people?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Did you say Jim Brown?

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Jim, you know, Jim Brown, Jim, you know, you remember Jim Brown with the club.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember Jim Brown yeah, he he's gone on the glory now. Yeah, uh Jim Brown was different, and and that's yet another show when you talk about black athletes and their participation in the movement. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good question.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

That's very future.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

But but I will say this black athletes generally were not groomed to help their people. Oh, they were black athletes, black athletes generally were not groomed to help their people. Black athletes, for the most part, were groomed black athletes, black athletes for the most part, with exception, they were groomed to entertain white people. That's generally what black athletes would have to do. Hey, hey, as Charlie Kirk used to say, prove me wrong, prove me wrong. There's exceptions. There's exceptions, you know. Well, hey, we are both sports fanatics. We both sports fanatics, but truth is truth.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

It's been a pleasure with you guys this week. Mark, Ricky, or you guys. I'm happy to be back. In other words, I'm gonna say there's my side. There's your side, and Ricky, somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

There's the truth. There's the truth. Welcome back, old man. Welcome back, and what happens?

SPEAKER_04 29:50

I can see clearly love the rain. Let's go. I can see a lot, a lot of skills in my way.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

This episode of Shelly's Plumb Line was written, produced, and edited by Dr. Shelly Stewart, Mark Jamraz, and Dr. Ricky Jones. It was produced by Stewart Production at the Plum Line Studios in Derek, Alabama. If you are a fan of Shelly's Plumb Line and you like what we are doing here, please remember to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. Give us a review and share this podcast with others. Follow us and continue the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. This is Mark Jamaicans. We'll see you next week. Keep sharing the love, it will all grow stronger.