Has the Role of Black Churches Changed?

This week Shelley's Plumbline covers a debate on the Black Church's role in community unity and institutional strength, questioning if its historical influence on the community and youth still remains strong today. 

Shelley shares his concern about whether Black institutions like the church that once helped navigate racial struggles have weakened in that role. 

The discussion then addresses the ongoing fight for equality, emphasizing that awareness and responsibility are needed to address current racial conditions.

Follow us and continue the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, and  LinkedIn.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, world, and welcome to Shelley's Plum Live. Truth for Topic of Tough Topics, hosted by Dr. Shelley Stewart. Shelley started broadcasting in 1949, and he has been on a journey to discover the truth for humanity ever since. And at 91 years of age, Shelley still sits down before the microphone as he pursues answers to tough topics, challenging us to change the experience of being human and our outlook on humanity. Ladies and gentlemen, I am honored to present the newest member of the Radio Hall of Fame and the oldest podcaster in the world. Get ready. Here comes Melanie.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

One line in the comment section. Oh my goodness. The last episode, guys, uh, you left me crying. You know, you made me cry leaving. Ricky did anyway. Uh, it seemed to me uh mentioned something about church. Hey, God, don't do that to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

You know, oh God, here we go. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

He was running away, you know, running. Uh you you trying to hurt me. Uh I'm a nice guy. I'm I'm a graduate of Moorhouse. And here you're trying to tell me, get me started with the church. I said, no, no. I start crying. Ladies and gentlemen, it's it's great to have you with us. Uh and you know, it brings us to this week. I I thought about so many things after last week's podcast. Until I thought about as I came along as a young the things that I saw uh on the churchyard, you know. And uh the community is so small naturally, but I would see so many things. Each week, you know, uh the preachers normally live right near the church. Uh in uh one community, there was a AME church, there's an AME Zion Church, there was a CME church, then there was a Union Baptist Church, and the Friendship Baptist Church. There was all in within a community of maybe 150 people, just maybe. But there was each Sunday, each one of those churches went at. Each Sunday, I mean a little boy, I was uh I was a little close to Union Baptist Church. That was the closest one. But there was a group who went there, and just a block away, Friendship Baptist Church, the one mock used to get a picture of that one. That was another one. Well, just across the highway, there was a Bethel, uh Bethel AME church, then there was the CME church around. So we're right in that community, man. But every Sunday, each church was packed. And not only that, during the week, nominally on Wednesday night, yeah, that's what it was, man. Bible study. Oh my god. On Wednesday, there was a prayer meeting or something down there. Wednesday night, Wednesday evening, every one of those churches had somebody was there doing something, some activity was going on. And then uh the children had an had a night. All children, every church, there was five of them, but every one of them worked together. But then here was the key. Once a year, they all got together down at the park. Every one of them. Oh they were separated on Sundays. Yeah, but then once a year, you told my some tater salad in. Some nana pudding and oh my god, some corn. Oh, hold on, pop.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

What did you say? You didn't say banana pudding, you said nano pudding.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Nana, yeah, nana, nano putting banana pudding. Nana put give us one of that nano pudding. Potato salad, you know. But every once a year, everything was down there at the at uh the park. You remember the diamond, they're called the diamond. And the diamond was where the negroes played baseball, softball, football, every kind of ball took place down at the diamond, all together in the communities. So those things that hit my mind after last week, yeah, you guys talking to me. And I went and started reflecting during that time, and uh, I looked at how together that was. Now, the other part of it, as I became older, I started watching, listening to the preachers, and they would say, we're going to uh different cities, and they would leave and say, We're going to, uh Ricky, you may know more than I do about this. They go from city to city for the organization meetings, I think. All of them the Baptist preachers went to this, and the Methodist preachers went to this, the CME preachers went to this, but they would yeah, and they would go to different cities, and I would, you know, I saw those things in my life coming up, and I listened to and watched how they were together for whatever reason. Now, with that being said, as I became Shelley or on the radio and the likes, I started knowing that in every city there was the same thing going on. I started traveling to Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, and it was the same activity. Atlanta, Georgia, Charlotte, North Carolina, uh, you know, the same thing was going on. I went to Los Angeles, California, and the same activity, the way those people, the Negro and the church, they were together. I mean, man, I don't care what anyone says, they were together. But at the same time, coming up now, and it's our last podcast. I thought about it on my age, you know, you guys know it. I don't mind saying it. I'm 91 years old. As I go along through my career, I started observing something going on. I said, I never thought of colleges, you know, universities and the mics. But then I start thinking back. Every one of those communities was tied, were tied in to Negro colleges. And they didn't call it at that time, you know, uh it was going to go by the Birmingham, Alabama, while came up, all of the Negroes were going off the college. And they said, Oh the college. Those people went to different cities and things. But it came from the churches in those communities, and they came together, and businesses came together. Well, business came about because I was hearing the local people coming up, so and so and so and so in so-and-so city. Here's what the church did over there. What the church did, oh Shelley, here we go. Here's what the church did. So and so we caught that pattern after that over there. It was the Negro church. And I I listened to the young people today and uh because we don't say Negro anymore, but I hear him talk about the historical black uh universities and blacks. I hear that, but it's the church, and that gets to me. Uh uh the role that I talked about has a shift and a way influenced or shift in its role than the one I talked about. That church, I look to church all together. I go to Chicago, I could go to Florida, I could go up to any church, and I heard the same thing, the same conversation. The preacher may be preaching a little different and wall up. But the mission was the same thing. Yeah. In your opinion.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Well, listen, first of all, let me let me tell folk, you listen to Shelley's Plum Line, the most conscious father-son podcast in the world, with Shelley the Playboy Stewart and the son of the Playboy, Dr. Ricky Jones here. Dr. Shelley the Playboy Stewart, in fact, and Dr. Ricky Jones. Please subscribe, please listen, please share on whatever the streaming service of your choice is. Now, my father is fooling y'all. He's leading you down the road, he's setting you up for his criticism of the black church and black preachers. And pop, you know that's what you're doing, and you hold it a secret, and you hold it a secret, you got a secret, and I'm gonna tell your secret if you keep on doing what you're doing. But now, has the black church shifted? Yes, but I don't think that this is just an argument about the black church, I think it's an argument of the crumbling of black institutions, and and and pop, you can appreciate this because you're one of the best builders of black institutions that I know. You know, built the radio station, built O2 ideas, you you know, built all of this stuff. And so what we're seeing is a crumbling of black institutions because we don't see a commitment to black struggle in the same way that we did in the past, where we're seeing more black people who are committed to individual positions and success than they are to collective progress and power.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

But hold on, has it influenced though? Has that when I talked about it? I talked about it, how it influenced me as a kid coming up, but uh if that don't church influencing you, then you talk today's a dead then, you think has that influenced?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

You're right about that. Look, uh the the black church is is weaker than it than it has been. There are fewer and fewer people across the lines of race who are even going to church, right? And and I have to admit this, I have to admit this, and I'm trying to be careful the way that I I say this because I don't want to fall into your trap. There's some black preachers that are not righteous just a minute now.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Before you go there, before you go there, Ma, I'm gonna pull this spot on him too. Yeah, I'm gonna put into your hand what does that say right there? Read that. What is that saying?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It says uh certificate of license. This is to certain no no mark.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Don't you don't you dare because he what he's trying to do, he's trying to get out in front of me exposing him because I'm I know what this man is. He's exposed, he I'm gonna expose him, and he's trying to get out in front of it so he can steal my pump.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Read it, read, Mark, read it, go ahead and read it, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

It says this is a certificate of license, and it certifies that Dr. Shelley Stewart, who has given evidence that God has called him into the gospel ministry, was licensed to preach the gospel as he had as he may have opportunity and to exercise his gifts in the work of the ministry, 32nd Street Baptist Church.

SPEAKER_05 12:54

What he was 1995.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

This is this is mystery to me because uh I'm not I'm not much of a church goer. I don't understand much of the church.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

I got some work to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I don't know why you got the CME's and the AMEs and all the all the different names.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

I got some work on you to say. Go ahead, Enrique, with your point.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

I'm one of those typical reforming Catholics.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Go ahead, Enrique, with your point. I'm getting out in front of you because Pop, you you, you know, you're one of the most brilliant people that I know. And so what you do is you you you you set up, you give a man a hat and then you cut his head off. And and you're my father, right? So I I know you in a way that a lot of people don't. You have been very disappointed in the the the leadership of the black church. You've been very disappointed in some of the behavior of black ministers. I agree with you. I agree with you. I just don't think it's all black ministers. That's all. I I just think you harder, I just think you're harder on them than I am. And what's funny to me, what's funny to me, what's funny to me is that you will criticize these black preachers when you yourself are black preacher. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

I'm not preaching preaching it. Never said I was a preacher. That paper did not say that I was the preacher. It's a minister, not preaching. I don't care what you say, but that's the same thing. I am not that talk to guys who have the preaching license as well. And I tell them over and over many times that just because you have your license, but that does not mean that you are perfect. Please speak truth. That's what's in the Bible. That's when you go to Bible. I never got anywhere and stood up and took a text and said, I want you to just live by this. I tell this way here. If the Constitution of the United States were written, I'm gonna deal with that. I came on the radio and I know the Bible very, very well. I've told you before on other podcasts. I've read the New Testament three times, twice. So I'm very well aware of the New Testament, not very good at the Old Testament, but the New Testament I am. And I've had pretty my friends who are in ministers' preachers, who talked to me, well, fellas, you know, uh more money to come in church. Yeah, I've had that, and I sit there and talk to them. Uh we are still hard conversations. I've had preachers who come and tell me, yes, you're right. Uh, because I'm not that I believe that the message of equality that my commission out here is for all people. Now, black people need more in my life attention. They need more attention than the white man. I don't mind telling them that. So I preach, if you call it called preacher, I'll tell you that right there. You can't tell me that we are brothers or eagles when you can go in here and I can go in there. You can get paid here and I can get paid there. So you can't tell me we are really fame, and we you have more opportunities now. So that's what I think. Yeah, if you call me that, I'm gonna do that, and I don't give a damn who they are, how much education they have, and they get away from that right there.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Then yeah, uh well, my my minister, my minister father, my reverend father, who who I love so much, I'll outside of me picking on you about you being a preacher, and I want everybody to this it that is funny. That's something for people to grab a hold of. But this is but the very serious argument that you're making um is about the weakening of black institutions and how those institutions help black people to move along through spaces of struggle, and the fact that the black church has been one of those core institutions that held black communities together. And is the black church doing that now? That's the point, right there. That's that really is the core argument, and and I gotta give it to you, Pop. I think that you are correct that for all kinds of reasons, the black church is not um, for some reasons that are problematic with the black church and its leaders, and for some that are just about the times, the black church is not as strong as it used to be, and that's problematic.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Well, the reason I'm saying that, Ricky and Mark, is I'm having so many young people saying we don't need black churches anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, saying these are young people, we don't need black churches anymore. Churches they hold too long. Uh the black preacher, he yells too loud. We don't I'm serious about one of these. So when I say these things, uh shall I you are airing our uh uh dirty laundry. No, I'm telling you the truth. You're telling me to go here that uh support black activity, but yeah, you say, I will not go to a black church. You tell me to support black activities, but you will not go to a black school. Telling me this, now I don't care what y'all say about me, I am gonna stay right there. You can if once you kill off that that's what you're listening to in Washington to this day. Don't need that anymore. You need this more than ever. Yeah, you need that unity now more than ever, not only as a people, as a as black people, as a country, but pop.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

I think what what what you're saying is so important, right? It's so important, and and it's just like it's a given in our family, you know, between me and you and the folks of our family, it's just a given. But what you're saying is so important. There's still an overarching racial mission of struggle to speak to racial inequality. That that that's really what you're saying. And how can you prepare yourself as an individual and dedicate yourself as an individual? And how can you build institutions in the country to speak to that issue of racial equality because it's still needed, yes, and that is incredibly, incredibly important. But unfortunately, we have so many of our people at this point, and not just young people, but older people too, who ain't they're not committed to that, they're not committed to that, and we need it, you're right, more than ever.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

I say this to you, Ricky Mark. I listen to a politician over and over again, you know, very powerful, he's a matter of fact, the president of the United States. Black people, you can say that. We talk about fighting for equality. Over here, you talk about fighting for this ban everything that is tested in a building for. Saying that my brother Marie tells me quick here. Sam says I could. I didn't. I couldn't. Damn, I'm poor.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah, I mean, Pop, you make a good point because when when the president of the United States says fight, fight, fight, what is he saying to fight for? You know, what are you really fighting for? Are you fighting for some monochromatic country that's dedicated to racial inequality and white supremacy? You know, that that's a heck of a thing. Contrarily, the very same year, last year, 2025, was the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Carporters. We always try to do history here on Shelley's Plum Line. We try to educate and entertain. You know, me and my father talk almost every day, and we reinforce each other almost every day. And once a week, we try to reinforce y'all. We try to give you some tidbits. We try to help folks think, as part of me and Funkadelic said, think is not illegal yet. So we'll send you down some rabbit holes where you'll read a little bit. In 1925, the Brotherhood of Sleeping Carporters were founded, led by Asa Philip Randolph. And the the motto of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Carporters was this fight or be slaves. It was the first black union to sign a contract with a major American company, fight or be slaves. So the question is what do you want to fight for? Fighting for equality.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

And this is maybe another another episode. But I I went go back to the churches. I talked about I went to a school. First time he came, he says, I attend this university.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yes, mighty fiscal.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

I attend Pisk University. And I was like, oh man, he's I love Wicking Junior Mereweather. That man, the first man I knew of, said, Go back in his pisk. And I said, I want to go there. You understand? Now I I wanted that to come. And I told you in one of the podcasts that although I made the grades to go there, and they offer a scholarship, Bisco University actually put a scholarship up there for me. And the principal of the school said I didn't qualify because I didn't have the family background. Okay, so okay, so come on, Shelley. I'm saying to you what I understand, I know I'm not talking about somebody I love it at the same time, and I'm in Alabama, and if you wanted to be a doctor, you had to go to this university or somewhere else. If you wanted to be a black nurse, you had to go to Harry, or Gray, I'm sorry, Atlanta, Georgia. Uh if you black, so in other words, people, this is 2020, 25, 26, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

26, Pop. It's 26.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

And the same thing is going on now, as well as what I'm saying is that you don't stop the fight for equality.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

That's all that I'm saying. Right. And Pop, I I think I think what people need to understand about you is being dedicated to this fight, literally for decades, that you've been dedicated to this fight, it's not because of you, right? It's not because of you. Because one thing about you, through all the stuff that you've been through, all the denials, all the doubts, all the suppression and oppression, you still made it and were wildly successful because you're insanely individually talented. That that runs in our family, right? I mean, we'll talk a little trash.

SPEAKER_04 26:56

Very well. I ain't saying nothing bad about you. But you know, uh, Miss Morris, my tenth grade teacher, I got very angry with her. She said in the class and says, Uh boy, giving everybody hell in the classroom. And Miss Morris, the teacher says, Boy, shut up. I've got mine. You've got yours to get. And I thought Miss Morris was mean. Uh so you know, I could say that. I got mine, you got yours to get, but I'm I've been blessed, but I want to keep you that you can be better than I am. I want to see children better. No matter how much you are, you have an opportunity. Go get it. Don't let nothing stop you. That's what it's all about. The young man sitting over there, Ricky. I son, we came up on different things. Uh, we talk about it all the time, but we never talk about how bad things are now with us. We talk about how good we can be now. What we can do is help someone else. What Ricky after Ricky didn't want to talk about it. She was up in New York helping people out. Next week he's got another lady coming in talking about equality over Ohio somewhere. Uh he's not only on the plumb line doing what he does, but he's in other parts of this country. Yet uh he's messaging. But our career, a good message for America. That you mean uh Ricky is a good example of what those people said on the city. I think too. Ricky Mark, uh he said to me at the hospital other week, thank you. Even though what you talked about, you didn't have a little bit of no competitor like so that it just happened, you have a few better opportunities than Ricky and I. But at the same time, you come across now to say I didn't quit. I'm still working with you.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Ricky? Well, that's and that's my point, Pop, as we come up to the end of this this episode. Not because we we've talked about the black church, but it's really not the black church. We're talking about the state of black institutions and how they can contribute to black progress. And my point was it it is so incredibly selfish for people to behave like, say, a Clarence Thomas, to feel like, you know, I have been able to achieve this, that, or the other. I got mine, so you get yours. That's a very different ethic than than than that black teacher. And so for for you who's in who's insanely talented, you would at the end of the day, you were gonna be successful. At the end of the day, it's not arrogance for me to say I was gonna be successful. But the question for us has always been in our family, this Jones Stewart clan. What about black children who are just average? They why do they have to be insanely talented to be successful? Because right now, when you really stop and you look at it, the president of the United States is not an insanely talented man. He is painfully average. And so our people shouldn't have to be so much better to actually make something positive happen. And and that's what our conversations are really about. And how do black institutions and hopefully, hopefully, we can have white partners to come together with us to really level the playing field in America so that all people can function in a world where all people are created equal and have an equal chance at justice and liberty. So that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Very well said, guys, we gotta close out, but before we leave, this weekend, uh this day, should I say, uh, I I want to give some thought for next week, possibly. Uh next week conversation in your promise. Uh some blacks tell me that black and white, I'm gonna have it. If the whites in this country have any guilt about the race conditions of today, do we believe that blacks and whites together destroyed the so-called promise of the civil rights here or civil rights movement? I'd like to discuss that next. All right.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Hey, before we get ain't no blacks and whites together destroyed nothing. I'm just saying, we try to close this week. I'm I'm just as mad about that as you are about the black church, so we can talk about that in another episode.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Yes, we will, ladies and gentlemen. You got that Ricky's over there. Rick is upset this week. I was mad look over upset. He's upset. Mike, you're not upset already.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

You think he can hold it for another week, Ricky?

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Uh-uh. I hope he does. That is your side. That is my side.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

And Ricky somewhere in the middle with Reverend Shelly. Dr. Reverend Shelly the Playboy.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

That is the children. Let it let it shut up. Let it shot. Let it shut. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

This episode of Shelly's Plumline was written, produced, and edited by Dr. Shelly Stewart, Mark Chamberlain, and Dr. Ricky Jones. It was produced by Stewart Productions at the Plumline Studios in Sterrit Aleman. If you are a fan of Shelly's Plumline and you like what we are doing here, please remember to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. Give us a review and stir this podcast with others. Follow us and continue the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. This is Marketing Market. We will see you next week.