Interview with Music Writer Candis Bonner, Pt 2

In this week's podcast, we continue our interview featuring Candis Bonner, a top writer for the major magazine Black Radio Exclusive.

We focus on the history and evolution of the Black radio industry. Bonner explains that Black radio was not homogeneous across the US, and her publication was often ahead of the curve in predicting music trends because it was dedicated to the industry when general trades neglected it. 

We discuss the historical power of influential local Black radio personalities, who could previously mobilize thousands of people for community action. However, this local power ultimately diminished because syndicated shows, driven by money, diluted the influence of these strong local voices.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, world, and welcome to Shelley's PubLive. Truthful Talk on Tough Topics, hosted by Dr. Shelly Stewart. Shelley started broadcasting in 1949, and he has been on a journey to discover the truth for humanity ever since. And at 91 years of age, Shelley still sits down before the microphone as he pursues answers to tough topics, challenging us to change the experience of being human and our outlook on humanity. Ladies and gentlemen, I am honored to present the newest member of the Radio Hall of Fame and the oldest podcaster in the world. Get ready. Here comes Dylan.

SPEAKER_07 1:29

And uh Professor Mabemery. I could call him a CEO or something like that. My friend, my brother, my gamerage.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Uh we thank you, Pop. Thank you for the love this week. You know, we've been at war for the last few weeks, and we want to let people know that we love it.

SPEAKER_07 1:51

Don't you say that? This is a military performance. Uh this is a uh what is it? Military uh drama. Don't mention war here, man. Don't mention it war. Not to me now. You know, get me started. Don't start me to talking.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

No, no, not with you, Pop, but but pop, you know, I don't think everything I knew. But it's been bad, it's it's been bad, but but we have the honor of having my dear cousin Candace Barner back with us this week because we were getting into you, you know, we were getting into great conversations. If you have not listened to episode one of this two-part series with this music mogul, music and media mogul, that's what I'm gonna call you, you cousin Candice. Please go back and listen to part one before you listen to this this week's episode where we we deal with this great Michigan State grads journey, you know, through through the world, through the industry, and you know, all this this this knowledge about black radio and everything else under the sun. So, you know, combining the the knowledge of you, cousin Candace and my father, there's so much, so much here. And I'm interested in hearing, you know, the the rest of this this back and forth so I can learn from y'all.

SPEAKER_07 3:10

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

You know, um Mark, you got to well, sure. I mean, Candace, we like last week we were talking about um just to bring our audience up to date, we had mentioned that black radio around the country was different in different cities, it was different in Detroit, in Chicago, in Los Angeles. Why don't you uh, you know, how did that influence the work that you were doing? So you were writing, and you know, did it uh influence the way you wrote to audiences or the topics that you talked about?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

I did I really wanted to concentrate on um um at the time there were so few black-owned radio stations. So I tended to want to uh spotlight them whenever I could. Um and a lot of the the stations, uh the smaller stations, like in Mississippi, um in the Carolinas, uh Alabama, you know, Georgia, where they weren't in like major markets, but they had big influences uh with the community. And you could you could spread uh uh that word of mouth before the internet and all of that. That was the media. The media was people. And they could push they could push uh new music way faster than a commercial, uh, you know, on TV or or even radio. Once you've got the community, oh you can you can get a hit as far as I can buy.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

What was funny was that I I think I mentioned that I listened to uh the electrifying mojo in Detroit. And and one of the reasons you know me and my friends gravitated toward that was that it was interesting, you know, at a point when um radio in Detroit had become very corporate and very homogenized. So you were listening to rock and roll, it was like you said, the same 10 songs. Yeah. Literally were, I don't even know if they had disjockeys and they were in the process of actually removing them. You know, they were just putting what they called the carts where the tapes would play, and the disjockey was really just the guy that stuck those things in the machine. Yeah, maybe he would talk a little bit and say, Hey, this is the you know, announce the next song. But there was really, you know, any kind of personality and interest was discouraged. So my friends, you know, wandering around the radio dial, we had found some people like uh the electrifying mojo. I know he tried to mix a lot of uh different pieces, he would play uh probably one of the first guys to play techno in Detroit, which is where a lot of techno came from. So he would he would mix techno with the B-52s, with RB, with Prince. I mean, his show is just really, really interesting. So that was one of the reasons why we ended up uh on that part of the dial.

SPEAKER_07 6:11

That is a rarity. Detroit was quite different because they were forced to be different there. Uh they didn't do it on their own. Uh no, they didn't do it on their own. Don't get yourself. Uh in any major city, uh there were people, uh Cannes knows these people just as well as I do, not as well, but uh very well. Uh the in New Orleans there were specialties. You know, Houston, Texas there were specialties, uh New York there were specialties. Uh and what happened then and what happens now is totally a different thing. There aren't any black radio daily personalities in the markets anymore. That was totally wiped out by black people themselves by saying we don't need any local blacks talking. We talk someone else to talk to us.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

So whoa, whoa, whoa, pop, whoa, wait a explain that because he uh you are you are you blaming this? And I don't know, I don't know, but but but but cousin Candace, I'll tell you my father has gotten into this this uh habit of of misleading people and quoting people like Shelby Steele and and his friend uh Condoleezza Rice and stuff, you know. So and I was gonna ask later what the state of black media is, but you're making the argument that it was black people who forced out local black voices. Is that is that what you're saying, Pop?

SPEAKER_07 7:49

Am I hearing you correctly? I did not say it was black people that forced them out. I said black people said at that time, some years back, they did not need any black people on the radio in the morning talking about local local uh media uh things happening in the community. They didn't want any black on the radio at that time, they wanted all music. No 10 in the morning, they decided, and I was on that radio at that time saying, damn it, you're gonna kill yourselves because well, we're gonna put some blacks on the radio. So they went and decided, so we'll find a black and we'll give him uh syndication. So you don't have to talk to you and tell jokes in the morning. Anything, damn it, I know what I'm talking about. Yes, yeah. So we were telling black.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

But by the line was they all they all did it, it was all done for money. Yeah, it's all money, it's always the the beginning, the end of uh the industry.

SPEAKER_07 9:01

It was the beginning of the ending of it. So that probably said we need a power black, uh, let's put that black one person black person on the radio in the morning, make damn sure he's on in the morning, yeah, drive to and syndicate that person, but he cannot talk about local.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Oh are y'all talking? Are y'all talking about stuff like the Tom Join a morning show and stuff like that? They hit really hard in the 90s and 2000s?

SPEAKER_07 9:25

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, it was cheaper to kill off the local part of it. Uh that it was done that way. Yes, that's what I said how the blacks were involved in it. We were telling informing blacks at that time, and black was saying, but uh they play music all the time. Uh no news, you can't talk about you cannot talk about community activities, you cannot talk about injustices, you cannot talk about voting. Yes, they cut it out.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_07 10:03

Dilute the power. Dilute the power.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

All entertainment, no education.

SPEAKER_07 10:08

Oh, okay. That's if you say yes, if you accuse me of doing that, yes, that happened. And the O say you don't lock the barn when the horse is stolen.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Yeah, yeah. Now I'm with you there, Paul. I pick on you, but I'm with you there. I was just picking on you, but you you're right when that happened.

SPEAKER_07 10:26

I opened it up so I could close it too. Um open it up so I could close it. Yeah, you you don't lock the barn after the horse is stolen. And that's what happened. That's what happened. Now you're like, well, so and so got money uh uh put the politician in money, so and so got a airplane. We go booking that for a nigga airplane. You know, you don't lock the boy out of the horse stolen, and you don't put a damn box to to guard the handouts either.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Right, and that's the truth. And you you can't even blame uh the uh the DJs, you know, because the whole thing is they're trying to make a living, you know. And so a lot of the the syndication was a way for uh them to dilute the power because when you have strong personalities, that strong personality could mobilize a whole town, a whole city, hundreds of thousands of people. Oh my lord. And that was just, you know, it just seemed to bother the powers that be. Very effective strategy, very effective strategy.

SPEAKER_07 11:45

Okay, not only that, it was the many of the black so-called politicians in these markets that said, if I can't control the blacks, you gotta join my team. Well, a powerful black man on the radio was not a member of any local politician, he was a person of the community. He dealt with the community of all of the people, especially the black people who were hungry. So if you were a politician, they joined in because you had to show your work. Yes, yes. So I mean, yes, it's it's this was crazy and still crazy. I'm sitting now once again. Last week I said I'm an old man, yeah, but I've been out here a long time. Yes, I started in the media way back then, 1949, when I first started broadcasting, and I can tell you right now what I hear now. You're a broadcaster in the community.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Pop, can I ask you this? You and cousin Candace both. I mean, the the logical question from what y'all are saying, what do you think is the state, not just the black radio, if if such such a thing even still exists, but what what do you think is the state of black media right now? No, whether streaming services, newspapers.

SPEAKER_07 13:12

There's no such thing.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

You say there's no such thing.

SPEAKER_07 13:14

One is to kill it off because black media, black owned media cannot get any support from the community um the business community. Johnson publication, get magazine, powerful magazine, every magazine is powerful, but then to get the point we are not going to put in the ads, we are not gonna pronounce any of these things that they're promoting. So uh, yes, it exists, and it's the truth. And oh, we don't want to say that, but it's the truth. There's no such thing. Black try to do things now, but then the black said it won't work, it will work if you want it to work and you work together.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Um I'm like uh Shelly to a certain degree, just because uh you have black faces and you may even have uh, you know, some uh black folks in corporate America who you know will sponsor the soul drain awards or you know, this, that, and the other. Um we I and I guess we we got caught up in our own success because a lot of the the big black owned uh media you know they told themselves, you know. Um and you can you can't blame them when people have you know writing checks or you know, tens or not hundreds of millions of dollars. Um you can't say, oh no, I I can't tell because you know it's gotta stay black-owned. Um we just you know it it doesn't work now. Uh it was so much easier um back in the day when it was they were small and they were unnoticed pretty much by corporate America. And the black media could go and do whatever they wanted to do. And so they were they could mobilize anybody for anything. Um, but now it's um uh they are uh the few that are still left are conscious because they have to answer to whoever uh is the the the big wave who can come and crowd if they want to.

SPEAKER_07 15:49

It's all about money.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

It's all about money. So as far as uh a media that is um you know um dedicated to the promotion of black folks and um the marginalized, um they they tend to be, you know, the handful that are left. Um most black people don't even know they exist.

SPEAKER_05 16:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

They don't even know that they're there. And that's the sad part because these um folks have been around for decades just trying to help black people live in this country, you know.

SPEAKER_07 16:31

It's not uh one thing about it. I said on uh podcast last week fight. Yeah, you still got to fight. You still have to fight. You gotta fight for what you need to fight for, and that's the right thing for a quality of life education for your children. Absolutely for your families to grow. You're going to have to continue fighting for it. It's over. It's never over. It's never over. I tell I hear people over and young people. 50 and 60 year old people, well, it's over now. Uh uh, it's over. Uh the fact's over now. Uh we won't. We never won a damn thing. That's true. You know, we we move this a little another step, but each step. And and uh what I said, life is hard by the yard, yeah. I said that.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah, but pop that that talking to y'all though, like talking, talking to you, and certainly talking to cousin Candace, who's a little bit older than me, um, it's it's somewhat terrifying because I'm one running theme that we have here is talking about, certainly talking about black struggle. What are the possibilities that we can create at this point, not just for ourselves, but certainly for our children, and looking across the board, we keep coming back to the same theme, I think, either the shrinking or the absolute collapse of black institutions. Like you see, all the attacks on higher black black presence in higher education, whether it be at Michigan State or where I am at the University of Louisville or Harvard or anywhere else. But a lot of that, I think we we're in a position of vulnerability because we didn't take time to really shore up HBCUs over the years. We didn't build up those black educational institutions, and even when you talk about media, which is such a powerful communication, not just a communication device, but a socialization device. Um, I know you know my fraternity brother, who I've I've met a few times, Tabit Smiley, bought a black radio station out in LA. Uh, I think it's KBLA, which has a progressive political mission. But I don't know if many of those really exist. And so when you talk about black institutions and where we were and where we are now, and I've asked my father this question before, cousin Candace. And so I'll ask you, do you think we're farther along now than we were, or have we slid backwards a little bit? Because it certainly seems like we've lost control of some of these institutions that were so powerful in our community uh communities.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Yeah, well, you know, it um I think what we did uh with the uh emergence of all this new uh social media, um we kind of lost sight of where we were in the pecking order. And because people saw, started seeing more black people, you know, uh in commercials or on TV or the internet, they thought we had arrived. And I'm like, uh no. No, we have not arrived. Um, the struggle is still going on. Um, it's it's like um I tell my my godkids, um I said, you you know, because they were like, Uncle, you're always talking about politics. And I said, Well, sweetie, let me tell you this. Your whole life is um really steered around politics, where you live, your cars, your utilities, your housing, your apartments, uh, whether you have clean water, where where wherever you want to send your kids, everything is is made um it's made to happen in a system. And you either gotta be a part of the system or you're gonna get, you know, swallowed up.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Even up by that system, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So um I think that I think that um that that that was part of Black Radio to remind, you know, because people forget that the civil rights movement, a lot of those people who were marching were teenagers. And you know where they heard everything? On the radio. It was you know, on the radio and in churches.

SPEAKER_07 21:13

It was that what uh candles you hit it right on the head there. In the 50s and the 60s, we tried to get the uh adult, if you will, to come to the table and come out here and say, Look, we are tired of this. We want better. I'm gonna go to that. And they would think, Wow. It's so bad. Uh Jesus died on the cross for us. Yes, all sorts of things they told us. Guys, Candace, Mark. Ricky had meetings over and over, and older people said exactly what I said. So finally, we started sending going, not sending, going in the communities around the adults and telling that, you know, young folk, your mama over here having to do this. Take care of you, your daddy having to do this, and the children said, Mom and daddy having to do that. Yes. Yeah. The police beat your uncle up. The police beats up. We were on the radio talking about telling the younger people who go home.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yes, young people are fearless. Young people are fearless. They don't know they don't know. They don't have no sense to be scared.

SPEAKER_07 22:53

I know that young blacks, we just little by little, took us about four or five years in the communities. And Candace Nova couldn't talk about it. As a matter of fact, she's wrong, she wrote it in this magazine here. Yeah. In 1982, she wrote about it.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about that first.

SPEAKER_07 23:10

Let me get this point. And what happened was uh, as we talked about earlier, Negroes, and when I first started in radio, uh all of the owners wanted to hire someone light-complexed, most of the radio people who they hired had to be light-complexed.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Of course.

SPEAKER_07 23:36

All of the radio owners, they only want light-complexed uh Negroes to talk on the radio. And uh people mean I could check your record and check the photographs, you see, all the one light-complexed. Oh yeah, and they are coming along. Yeah, oh there were me, old Dockie. Uh and I come here and I started talking to the people and going in the communities and talking to the masses of black people, talking to them on that level, and those young people started saying, Shelly said. And Shelly Crazy. And so finally the modern okay, that is a book here, A. G. Gas left in my hand. Shelly go get us all both again. No, no, no, no, no. But yeah, y'all can laugh about it, but the younger people said, uh, and I can tell you right now, go back and look here. Say, I'm not afraid of your jail. I want my freedom. And they weren't rapping, they were rapping all right. Oh, yeah. I'm not afraid of your jail. I want my people, not afraid of your jail. I want my freedom. They didn't ever say I want my civil rights. These young people, I want my freedom. Freedom, I just want to live. Those young people said, You gotta be my mama, don't be my daddy, you're beating my people. The young people saying that. These were just the older people were saying, Well, it's not no, it they weren't kidding too many of us, but yeah, they hit me. I'm gonna be quiet. That young that younger group. And they kept on going. And all of a sudden, when these politicians John Kennedy look, we gotta do something to stop this. This thing's getting out of hand. Um, let's get a civil rights bill. Let's get some civil rights bill. And let's stop it because they're getting out of hand. It's getting out of hand. Them children, not the old people. It was the children. It was the children. Not only Birmingham, Alabama, where it started, the younger children through these United States of America, woke up the older people.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Yep. They were all just to take it. They were not gonna wait. They were not gonna wait 50 years.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

All right, Miss Candace. I have a question that I'd like to talk about. You know, you wrote this article here that Shelley has, it's probably 2,500, maybe 3,000 words. Yeah, you wrote for um the Black Radio exclusive, the BRE. Um, you were just talking about Jet magazine, we were talking about Ebony. Um, you know, how has that changed? You know, you were a writer, a magazine writer. I don't see articles of this length anymore. I don't know what's going on with Jet and Ebony, but has has the has the media evolved for for the black media that that are are folks like are they getting their information now from TikTok or to the written word?

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Um it's it's uh I think uh a lot of uh our our uh attention span has changed so much that you know people don't want to read a long, you know, a long tale, but you need that link to give people uh some context about what's going on because you can't just assume they know the history, because you know, if you're not reading, you you you don't know the history because it's not on a TikTok. Um so you're gonna have to get a book or you're gonna have to get some research done. And um it's um you know, being an English major, when you tell me you don't read, I can't, you my mind just goes blank because I just can't compute that kind of concept of people who don't read. Um, but we used to, and I think we're trying now, not the generation behind me, but I think like the generation, the two generations behind me. I see more younger kids uh interested in reading. Um I go places and I see them with their, I'm thinking they're you know, playing a game, they're actually reading something on their phone.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Cousin Candace, are you talking about like really little kids? Because like the college-age kids right now, and this is really, really important and it and again terrifying for me. You know, this 18 to 25 year olds right now I have in college, I kicked my class out today. Okay, kicked them out because you know, you saw a court verdict against Meta and YouTube here recently, where they court found them liable of you know, intentionally addicting kids to these platforms. And so we have seen a shrinking in their attention spans. I found it very, very difficult to not just get them to read, I asked them to watch a one-hour documentary on Joe Lewis. They they they didn't even watch a documentary, so they're not they're not really conversant. So when you and my father were talking about these these young people in the 50s and the 60s that you were that you know you were able to tap into and that were very, very active, I'm not seeing that with those 18 to 25 year olds. So are you talking about some that are even younger than them?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Younger.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Okay, okay, that's that's hopeful.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Because they because they because it just seems like uh parents behind me missed that that piece. So grandparents my age are teaching their grandkids some history.

SPEAKER_05 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Uh, and and really pushing them to read and to um limit screen time. You know, whenever you ever see, you know, folks say, oh no, put that, you know, tablet away, that phone away, here's a book. So I'm seeing that more with younger kids, and it's from their their grandparents because their grandparents realize that they sort of made a mistake in handing those uh tablets and toys uh to their kids, and then they wonder why their kids aren't uh able to uh comprehend uh complex situations because they they they never learn how to socialize. I find out even with my my godson, you know, sometimes I say, you know, it seems like you struggle when you are trying to talk to people who aren't either related to you or at work. And he said, Well, Auntie, we never when we grew up, we we didn't date like you guys used to date. We went in groups and we didn't we didn't talk. We all text. We grew up texting, we didn't grow up talking, so it's hard for them. Their brain can't, you know, it has to figure out a way what to say. Because I always tell them, hey, don't text me because I need to I need to hear your tone, you know. So you know, parents used to say, it's not what you said, it was your tone. And you can only get that when you are actually having a conversation. Uh, and so like I said, it's not the generation behind me, it's the generation behind them that we're trying to to bring up and and uh sort of straighten up some of our errors.

SPEAKER_07 31:44

I've got to say this for sure. It's about relationships. Absolutely. It's about relationships that you don't have anymore, whatever reason. Uh uh then uh last podcast, I opened it up talking about your dad, my brother, which uh Jimmy Bonner. Uh our relationship started. Uh he wanted better for you and his son.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Yes, he did.

SPEAKER_07 32:18

I came up on heart like Jimmy. And I'm just a blessed man I am to stay here today and uh be talking with you, my niece, uh Bert, your daddy, and I were friends. Of course, he's going on to be the Lord now. And uh to be here and have my son sitting here talking with me today and saying that relationship means so much. He and I did not have uh the same relationship coming up, but Ricky and I, we've given a damn hard fight to make sure that we make every day of our lives now happy without any stress except trying to make things work. That is why we do uh the podcast that we're doing today. Uh Ricky Ricky not only does a job working in this system that they've enabled, but uh he expanded now to work a lot of the cities in this country uh doing his uh his social media standing sitting here with me here on uh online. So our relationship has been you. I noticed during this podcast and it lasts a week. I noticed Ricky now he never said uh cut your fingers or anything, but he didn't say my curse.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 34:04

My friend, you know, I don't have I lost I know lots of people. Yes, I would say to me I love them as human beings. I mean I know their name. That's why I called me the Playboy when I was younger, because I called every lady hey bag. And I could call your name.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

There you go.

SPEAKER_07 34:31

I see the men, hey brother, and sometimes I see men, I won't say I won't call their name as hey boss, you know. But uh that's my way of getting away. But I have the relationship. I believe going into communities into restaurants even today. I speak to some people next across the tables. Uh uh, hello, how are you doing? I don't make that move. Yes, I see that, but I yet see young people now and old people now go into communities, uh, into restaurants, the stewards, they never talk with each other. They act like they're afraid of each other, maybe right place. I don't know. But uh I think now is the time to talk about relationships, building that uh the older with the young. I am a believer at this point in my life. I'm 92 years old this year, and I love talking with y'all. It's one of the greatest times in my life. I learned from y'all, I learned from Ricky, I learned from Mark and others. I learned from you, I listen to you. And um, you have to find that and to take that younger group and listen to them too.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:54

Yeah, they got to, but they gotta listen to you. So that's all I'm uh in this podcast. I'm so happy about it. I'm so happy that you took your time out to spend with us uh three weeks uh to do things, uh talk about uh you and Jackson by you and the Jackson Bow.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Hey, that was huge. It I mean I'm I'm um 60, I was 67, and that's still huge in my life. So you know, don't don't take no pot shots at the Jackson.

SPEAKER_07 36:33

But I forgot, you know, I'd forgotten that happened. I mean you told me that's all hell. I remember that. Uh so many other things uh in life. The Sam Cook's new female meet so many of my friends. Did you say Sam Cook? Matter of ways for Sherry, the most daughter, Sam Cook is a godfather.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

See, oh wow, it's it's that's the history is huge. Oh, that's huge. I love Sam Cook. Go away. Oh my goodness. Oh no. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_07 37:15

Yeah, Sam Cook. Yeah, Sam Sam and I spent many days together, many nights uh together uh on the streets in Birmingham and and uh across the country, Bobby Womack, uh and uh Cecil Womack and all those artists who used to come to Birmingham for shows and stuff, and you had them just around everybody.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

So they were, you know, they were like, you know, cousins because uh, you know, other than what the AG Gaston Motel, they they couldn't stay anywhere, you know, at the other, you know, at the real hotel.

SPEAKER_07 37:53

Some of them, some of them didn't have the money to stay there. Uh there you go.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So, you know, they were glad to see you because you basically you would go find them a bed for the night and something to eat.

SPEAKER_07 38:05

It was not it was not easy uh coming up uh and uh for me to be here on this day in this year to uh share these moments, these times with Candace Bonner uh and to Ricky and to Mark. It's it's a blessing to me uh to come and chat with you and hopefully that someone will listen and benefit. Hopefully, that someone will benefit from these podcasts. Share them with your friends and neighbors. Remember, there's your side.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

There's my side. And Ricky says, somewhere in the middle, there's the truth, and thank you, cousin Candace, for coming in here to thank my father and Mark Jamrod from ganging up on me. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

All right, I'll see y'all at the next barbecue.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

This episode of Shelly's Plum Line was written produced and edited by Doctor's.