What Have We Done Wrong?

This episode of Shelley's Plumbline explores the question of what we, as Black men and a people, have done wrong in the ongoing struggle for equality? 

Stewart frames this introspection with painful memories of childhood segregation and being told he was "wrong" simply because of his color. Dr. Jones refines the query into two parts: "What is wrong with blackness" that the country treats Black people the way it does, and what tactical mistakes have been made in addressing these issues, such as the push for integration or traditional politics. 

Shelley also recounts his experience as a broadcaster confronting racism, often facing criticism from others in the Black community who accused him of "stirring up trouble" or being wrong for speaking his mind.

The conversation emphasizes the critical difference between external criticism and self-critique, with Dr. Jones warning against the narcissism of people who only discuss wrongs done to them, not wrongs they have committed. 

Stewart shares a powerful personal story illustrating his decades-long commitment to justice: he was so disturbed by a white preacher using the radio airwaves to promote segregation, arguing that "black birds and white birds" don't fly together, that he eventually bought the station to take the message off the air.

 The co-hosts connect this generational struggle to modern challenges, noting that the community solidarity seen in the Civil Rights era has fractured, attributing the decline in part to Black people buying "lock, stock, and barrel into American individualism."

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello, world, and welcome to Shelley's Plum Live. Truthful Topic of Tough Topics hosted by Dr. Shelley's Doom. Shelley started broadcasting in 1949, and he has been on a journey to discover the truth for humanity ever since. And at 91 years of age, Shelley still sits down before the microphone as he pursues answers to tough topics, challenging us to change the experience of being human and our outlook on humanity. Ladies and gentlemen, I am honored to present the newest member of the Radio Hall of Fame and the oldest podcaster in the world. Get ready. Here comes Dylan.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

And uh one thing they drive me bad, they drive me in corners each week. I think I started on this journey, and all of a sudden my son gets in, and then that Mark gets in, and it's been a journey here now. And uh oh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Shelley Stewart, and that's uh Ricky on Dr. Ricky Junt over there. That's Mark Tamarez over there. And uh guys, happy to see you guys today. Yeah, how was your weekend? It was good. Did you uh you guys go to uh Washington and visit the Washington on flight sea trips?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I did some work in Spokane. Oh, you went to that Washington. I understand that you were in Spokane one time in your life. Man, I was stationed at Geiger Air Force Base, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Uh let's see, flight uh uh 87 uh flight squadron air defense command. Okay, jet aircraft. I was the base flight clerk there at uh Geiger Air Force Base. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

If I read everything correctly, that Geiger Air Force Base is now the Spokane Airport. Yeah, but that's a listener.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Uh I was also in the in the air force, yeah, but I wouldn't just get along. I wanted a job. That's true. And I would leave the post and I found a job in a place called the Spokane City Club. I was a bus boy and waiter at the Spokane City Club, right? And I was getting a$71 a month check. Wow. For that's what uh Air Force was paying at that time. What are you laughing for, Ricky? What are you laughing for? That's what they were thinking.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

No, I mean, you know, year years after you were in the military out there in Spokane, I was when I was at the Naval Academy, I was also in Washington State, but in Seattle for my after my uh plebe year. So for my youngster summer cruise, I was on a mind sweeper based out of the old Puget Sound in Seattle, and that base is no longer there either. But I was making a hell of a lot more than$71 a month.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

You know, this guy's been following me a long time. He everywhere look, he's been following me, and I didn't know he was following me. Here I learned today.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

I was stalking you.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

He's stalking me, yeah. That's what it is. Yeah, you know, uh, you went out uh in Washington State, and Ricky uh went through so much uh this last weekend and going through catching up with what the other Washington, DC. You know, that was lots of things went on there.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, a few things.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Uh wait me, wait a few things, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

We don't need to go into that.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Uh why not? I got some other things to go into, but I want to touch on that. Uh uh why all of a sudden, you know, things happen. I don't know, man. That's another another another problem, another program that we'll deal with. I guess you're right. But you know, I look at life now, guys, me being 90 plus years of age and my son over there, uh 50 years of age, you're 60, whatever it is. But I look at myself and say, What did I do wrong all of these years? What have I done wrong? What is a black man? We look in the mirror, what have I done wrong? What have I done wrong, black man? Being a young kid, Negro, uh you know, was I was it wrong to be born uh in the United States of America? Was I born? Uh was it wrong to be born with a a woman, a black man, negro man? Was it wrong? Um was it wrong? What what happened? Uh uh I was different. Uh came about us. I realized after uh about 50 years of age uh I had to be different. I was wrong because I was a different color. Uh I was wrong. You know, everything that I would do was wrong. Uh at that time. If I went to go, no, you go to that one. That's wrong. You can't go to that. You you need to hear, but you can't go to that. Uh you need food, but uh you can't test you can't. So thought about my life, and I found that most black men I guess those who are my age, very few of us left out here. But what should I do sometime? What in the world did we do wrong? Why didn't we have to do it? Then we're fighting for these things that I think you young people are fighting for now. And uh, are you guys doing wrong because you're fighting for equality? Are you guys wrong for fighting for education for all? I mean, and so maybe I did it wrong from the beginning. Maybe uh guys before me were doing it wrong. Uh maybe Frederick Douglass, maybe all of these modern King King Jr., all these guys have been doing it wrong for these years. So is it that we've been ignoring it wrong? And that's why we are maybe not doing it right now. Uh which is wrong and which is right. So I'm asking you guys, which is wrong and which is right. Ricky, I'll start with you. Which is wrong and which is right.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Um, you know, Pop, I don't know. When you talk about what did what did we do wrong? Uh for me, it's it's two, it's it's really two questions. One, collectively, what did we do as black people overall to be treated the way that we were treated in the country from its founding and continue to be treated today? Like for the for the country, what is wrong with blackness, right? Um, that's that's the that's one question. Two, what have we done right? What have we done wrong in trying to address those issues, right? Um, was integration the right move? Is nationalism the right move? Um, black people were wedded to the Republican Party up until the 1960s. Now we're wedded to the Democratic Party. Are we wrong in our embracing of traditional politics? But a deeper, another question too is been individual, and I thought this was where you were gonna go, and maybe it is. What what is going on with us as individuals? Like, you know, these personal reflections that we can have on and on what have we done wrong in living our lives? You know, I've talked to some of my ex-girlfriends over the years, um, some who, quite frankly, were traumatized by relationships with me. And so I ask, what did I do wrong as a mate with with you? Um, what have I done wrong as a son with my grandmother? What have I done wrong as a father? What have I done wrong as a friend or a person in society? And it's really, really important to be able, I think, to ask those questions individually so that we can make corrections in our lives. Because God knows I've met people, and I'm sure you all have as well, who can never really engage. They can talk a whole lot about what's been done wrong to them and even how they overcome, overcame those wrongs. But it's very, very difficult for them to talk about what they have done wrong. Yeah. And when you meet people like that, you better you better get away from them because they're narcissists. They talk a lot, listen very little, um, and they're dangerous people.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Contributions that we look at uh in life now. Each week we have so many things to discuss. There's so many things to talk about. Now, talking is one thing and action is another. And that's where I think I said, did I do wrong when I began broadcasting and saying the things that I said on a microphone uh about uh what Negro being freed by white folk? What was up to wrong then? You understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Uh well Shelly, I think uh I I can't speak for what you did wrong, but I think you did more things right. I can talk about those things because I think um with a person of your upbringing, what you did right was to fight for yourself and to take care of yourself. You never did blame anybody or society. You took it upon yourself to hustle and work and earn for earn a living and to speak your mind and fight for what you thought was right. So I think those are the things you did right.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

But that's that people who tell me, Ricky and Moss, that I was doing it wrong. Uh I'm serious about that. Uh I would uh I was broadcasting, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Well, if that was wrong, what was right?

SPEAKER_02 10:05

That's my point. I'm going to I'm saying uh go vote. You need to go vote. But then there were Negroes at that time. Well, why do you want to do that? You know, why do you want to stir up trouble? Uh uh, why do you want to do things like this? Uh so that's what I'm thinking about. I was wrong. Uh well, why do you uh why do you talk to white people like the way you talk to white people? Uh you know, I said, what do you mean talk to talk to people? They were people, I talked to them the way they talk to me. You understand? Uh I I would not respond rather to uh a white man who look and say, hey boy, you know I would not respond. So and then people said he was wrong. No, I would not respond to you if you say, Hey, you boy, you understand? I just would not do that. So maybe I was wrong with people. Now people said I was wrong for that. There were people saying that I was wrong uh for uh leaving and coming into this world uh when I was, you know, I had a reason for it. No one knew the reason, but coming out here, uh I'm out here and been here a long, long time. But maybe I did the wrong thing by coming out here uh and becoming a uh broadcaster, whatever it is, but I thought I was doing it right. Maybe I was wrong, though. That's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Well, I think Pop, some of the stuff that you're talking about, you you consider the source on that, right? When you get people saying, Well, if if you're confronting racism, if you're confronting institutional injustice, you're confronting this type of class stratification that we're still dealing with dealing with in this country, if you're confronting political oppression, and then you get people who are doing things wrong, who are saying that you're doing things wrong. There's a simple, simple question for them. And I'll tell you a story of your granddaughter on this. My granddaughter, your granddaughter, my daughter Jordan, a couple of years ago when she was 16 years old, she goes to an event with her mother over at the University of Louisville, and a dean, a black dean at the time, comes to our daughter, says, Ricky Jones is your father, right? And she says, Yes. And this man says to my child, all right, he says, You know, maybe people would listen to your dad more if he said things nicer. This man says, Maybe people listen to your dad more if he said things nicer. So he was saying, you know, he was he was making this critique that I was doing something wrong. Now, my father, my daughter being the the child that she is, having the blood that she has, says to him, My dad is actually very nice if you get to know him. But the question for you is, when have you said anything? Right? That was a penetrating question for from her to him. Because the point is, that man never said anything, and he's no longer a dean either. So he was a black man who was shuffling, buck dancing, and boot licking, and they still got rid of him. But the man was and is a coward, right? So I never ever listened to any criticism from cowards and fools, I don't do that. So some of the people who are saying to you or have said to you, oh, well, you're doing this the wrong way, you're doing that the wrong way. The question is, when have they done anything? But there are other times, so I think we have to know the difference between cowardly criticism and constructive critique from people who are well-meaning, who are not cowardly, who are not foolish, you know, because I think those are the people that we should be in conversation with. We should be in conversation with them politically, we should be in conversation with them socially, we should be in conversation with them about how we function within our families and our friends, how we conf, you know, function as parents, as children, all of those things. Those are the conversations that I'm most interested in having. Because, like Mark said, you pop, you've done more right than you've done wrong. That is true. I think the three of us all have, but we we're not getting better whether we 91 or 60 something or 50 something, if we don't engage the stuff that we have done wrong. We've all failed in certain places, and those are the pain points, I think, that you know, hurts to touch. Those point, those are the points that hurt for us to engage, but that's the only way that we grow. We can we can praise ourselves and have other people praise us all the time. But at some point we've done some, we have done wrong stuff, but we don't listen to cowards make that that critique.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Am I wrong then for today, 2026, to uh be disturbed when I hear from black people, men as well as women, uh, and the young and uh middle-aged and older saying we will never get it right. We as black people will never get it right. Why do you keep doing it? So I I hear that so much. And so, Jenny, it makes me the years that uh I've been trying to say, let's make it better for all of us, all people, uh young and old, black, any people, period. But it's wrong to for me to have done that. So they're telling me, why do you keep doing it? Why should you repair, Mark, keep saying uh get the education system right, get the political system right? Then it's wrong uh and keep doing it. So that's my point. Am I to do stop doing right and uh stop doing wrong and do right now?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Mark, go ahead, because you know, my thing is operationalizing what is right. That that's the first point that you have to have in that conversation. What are you talking about when you say you're not gonna get it right? What is right for you, right? What what do you think about that, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

I don't know. What do you think is right?

SPEAKER_02 16:13

That's my point right there. But I'm telling you, you know, we I don't see what we're going to going to keep voting for. We ain't gonna get no way anyway. Yeah, we not got our killing them, not gonna be rebuilt anyway. Yeah, and and it's disturbing to me right now. That's what I'm talking about. It's serving to me. Uh, I didn't say I was giving up, guys. Don't get me wrong, but sometimes it makes me because we did I just give it up.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

See, here, see Mark, here's where my father and I are different. I think, I think we're different. Even at 90 91 years old, he's still, I think, somewhat romantic. He still thinks he can save everybody. Me, I think I'm a little bit more realistic. I used to be like him. So when people start talking about getting it right and doing this, that and the other, I'm like, it's only so many people go, so many black folk in particular who gonna move along. You know, so like like you brought up education, right, pop? There are people who who will say stuff like college ain't for everybody. I'm like, Well, I can't talk to you, I can't know over and over and over and over and over. No, no, uh I don't have time for that. I let you waste your time with them. I know people who let college I've heard so many times with me. I know, and it still upsets you. It don't upset me when some black person says, Well, you know, college ain't for everybody. I'm like, Okay, you give that message to your child, and let's let's see how that works out, bruh. And you keep it pimping, I keep it pimping for me, my child, our family, and you know this college is for her, right? College is for everybody in the Jones Stewart clan. Oh, my father Gill said, the Stuart Jones clan. But these folk running around talking about college ain't for everybody. I'm like, okay, go be a hog, then go root, you know, go wallow, go, go, go roll in the spot. Pop ain't pop ain't comfortable with me approaching them like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Then uh you know, they would say you're a mean man, you're mean, you know. I hear you are mean yes, I am. I am, I'm a mean man. In other words, okay, let me see if I can twist it then. You let me go back to Miss Jones. Okay, Miss Marks, okay, Miss Marks, 10th grade in my lifetime. Told the kid uh entire classroom, listen, I got mine, you got yours to get. In other words, she was not being talking down when she was telling them to pay attention, stop cutting up and acting a fool, and says, Go to school, come to school and do your work. Now, my moms and dads said Miss Morris was talking about them children wrong. Miss Morris had never told those children, uh, I've got mine, you got yours again.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Whatever Miss Morris was telling the truth. Miss Morris was telling the truth.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah, well, that's my point that Miss Morris was telling the truth, but there was but yet she was wrong. That's my point. I was wrong when I was agreeing with Ms. Morris. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Well, uh, you know, I think I think we touched upon something where you said it's not where it should be, because it, you know, that that's not a defined goal. And and I think that part of the problem could be that there is no defined goals with with a lot of groups. I think in a couple episodes back, you talked about how you know the black church isn't what it used to be. Black communities are not what they used to be. When I look at myself, um, you know, we grew up in a neighborhood, but everybody's gone far and wide from there. Here I am living in Alabama. I was raised in Detroit. My family spread spread around the country. When I was young, we used to go over grandma's house every Sunday night. The family used to get together and we used to know each other and we had traditions and and things that were carried on. And and now all that's all that's gone because everyone's in a separate, separate place now. But I think that's somewhat a metaphor for the entire society because you know, groups are are splintering, as you said, the the black community isn't what it used to be. Funny enough, the only the only thing I see still like that, and this seems kind of strange, but I I go for a walk all the time with my daughter at uh at the park, and and I see a lot of Hispanic families getting together every Sunday, and they're playing volleyball and they're playing soccer, and and there's still a such a beautiful, strong sense of family and community in that in that group, you know. But but even give them time. Yeah, well, it's even it's time.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

What did you say?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Give them time. Give them time. They they haven't they haven't had time enough yet. Overall, a good percentage of Hispanic brothers and sisters, they haven't been here long enough to buy locked, stock and barrel into American individualism. They buy lock, stock and barrel into American individualism, their family structures, their community structures, their cultural structures will all be fractured. That's that's what happened to black Americans.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

From my observation, you know, I I remember we talked about a couple episodes ago about the 60s and in and what my reaction was. And I do remember watching on television, you know, marches and we shall overcome. And there was such a uh again, an admirable uh sense of community and purpose and direction. And and I don't think there's that really anywhere right now, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

You know, Ricky and Mark time. Let me go back in time with me. Media. We're on media now as a call media. But uh as I in elementary and high school, there were very few radio stations at that time, only AM stations. There were no AFMs at that time, by the way. But there was one particular guy every every week that was at the station. He was a preacher. He was white. And his son knew exactly what stuck with me. I was a little boy, and he would go off the air, which was very popular in Alabama, Bergingham to be exact. Ladies and gentlemen, I want you to remember this Israel speaking to you and telling you, have you ever seen black birds and white birds fly together? You never seen black birds and white birds fly together? No. So God did not put black broken white books to be together. So I'm Reverend Sorington told you, I'll remember this is the United States of America. Remember, until you see the black birds and white birds flock together as one, then tear apart. All right, I'm gone. I heard this preacher. Every minute he said that on the air. I became an adult and I became a broadcaster. And uh I was on uh let's see our 1220, he was the next frequency or so, and I was on the air and I was saying different messages, uh White Bird, I don't like White Bird. I don't know. I I would say stuff like that, agitated. I was absolutely going out to be a preacher, but it it stuck with me on the air using the airways to do that. And I I didn't I didn't take the man, no, I didn't. But it stayed in me because I'll get to one day I'm gonna be a people to tell this man use a little thing, and somebody will hear me and I'm gonna say the right things on the on air. It won't be what he said, but I'm gonna use it in a different way. And that frequency, by the way, uh I began to work hard and I grew. And I finally had the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

That frequency became available, and I bought another one of the things you did wrong, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I bought the radio station. As a matter of fact, I'm thanking God now for uh Nunak, so the guy who bought it, he was born right from it. He bought the station and operates right now. But I he wouldn't say that anymore. I was able to take that off the air and put that on on uh is the W ATV now. You know, you know what it is, Birmingham, and uh and uh the young guy who operate operates a black person talk about it and then now I'll see him next week or so. I think they're on and fear something. Okay. But I say these things because what took me for a while, I didn't get anger. I bought the dam station and then I bought it. I said this week, ladies and gentlemen, is what a white man said you never see a black bird and white birds fly together.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

So uh those are the things that I think Google called the McGenji a lot of. They said they can't do it, but I take it, you know, I'll take it, I'll take it and mix it up for you. And I named it Shinny. Whatever. Anyway, uh I didn't I I just wanted to make sure that I haven't done everything right or everything wrong, even I can say that right, but I want to kind of pick you guys' brains today and see uh I don't know. I think I believe in good things. Good things come to an individual. Yeah. I I really do. I think that the relationship that I'm enjoying in life today on this show, uh what podcast we call it, that is touching millions of people out here. Uh and uh the father-son relationship, people saying black men won't work together. There's my son right there, and the father over here says, Oh no, what they won't do, and with that you over there, uh we don't look like that.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah, we got we got our white bird with us. Yeah, got the bigger white birds up in here.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

You know, I tell them I doing something wrong. I've heard that. It takes both the black and the white keys on the piano to start splending a banner. So therefore, with me and uh with us, uh we know what we're doing, we just okay. Uh we take it and make make lemonade out of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

I think that hey pop, I have an idea. If if if if we would like to hear the things that that we are doing wrong outside of fighting against injustice, maybe we should bring our wives and girlfriends on here and have them talk about what we've done and are doing wrong.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

We'd be wives to women, we'd be uh we're uh we're up to week without a pattern on that one. You know, you know find, oh no, you know, that's a mean thing. That's the meanest thing I've seen in my life. Uh uh, you know, you know, don't do that. If you really want to, there's one thing I found out something. There's nobody that you could ever do all right for. No matter who is right, you can never do all right.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Uh that is correct.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Uh I I I tried that. I tried to somebody said, You got to give up your rights for your wrong. I did that more than one time. I gave up my right. Because uh so individual, well, I'm gonna give up and let you do it this time. I'm gonna let you do it that time, and then finally I'll let it get too far. So therefore, I would much rather not be involved in that getting angry with anybody. Like Ricky said, you know, uh I told him so many times you don't let anger get into your body. Anger A-E-N-G-E-R. Anger D-A-E-N-G-E-R. One letter with Angus doesn't want letter with anger. So therefore, I think the positive looks in life means more than anything that looks like that uh I think that uh I want to pick uh Rick is in your brain. Uh on education. I'm I'm confused. Uh and uh Ricky has to kind of hit mad on that. I don't want to go on on what he sees from an educator. See he sits over as the educator uh and all things and I've never really sat down and just picked his brain like that. And since we're gonna do it out on on uh next episode one time, that we'll do uh talk about that education again and uh why if there's no anger with us, why are we trying to do this? Why are we still like on this journey? Why are you still doing it? Why?

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Yeah, I mean and and and and that's a anybody who listens to this podcast, anybody who's who's stepping in, you listen to Shelly's Plump Line, the most conscious father-son podcast in the world, along with our good friend Mark Jamroz, you know, with the world's oldest podcaster, Dr. Shelly Stewart. That's what he he likes to say. I'm sure there's a 93-year-old podcaster out there somewhere. But if you listen to this podcast, we always kind of loop back around to education. And it's really, really important because both of us believe that education is power. And I do believe that there is kind of a racist attack on education right now of the sorts we have not seen in America, probably in the last 50 years or so, and it's much more sophisticated. And so, in our next episode, I think it's really, really important that we engage that because what's going on right now is incredibly dangerous, and I'm not exactly sure that a lot of people understand what the ramifications of it are.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

In other words, you're saying we're going through some a dangerous time right now, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Incredibly dangerous time. We are we're going through an incredibly dangerous time that is pushing us back in time. And what people are doing wrong right now, one, they're not taking time to understand it. And two, they are not speaking to it powerfully enough. Three, I think they're following the wrong people in the black community, and it's going to have very, very, very bad consequences for many, many black children.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

So it is uh uh it's it's something mark and Ricky that maybe it that's what energizes energized me to keep going. Sometimes I get up and say, Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why do I do this? Why am I doing? And no and behold, uh there's uh as my son says, I'm with you, Pop. Yeah, that that's just I I never thought that he would just join join join the hip. And here he is with me. Uh and I asked one time, I'm not gonna do it anymore. I'm tired.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Uh yeah, yeah, whatever, man. You you're gonna keep on doing it. I'm here with you. I'll hang out with you on your fool's errands. You still trying to save the world. I'm with you. You're gonna be disappointed again, Don Quixote, but I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Keep crying, we're gonna keep giving you what's that keep on pushing. Keep on pushing.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

I think Curtis might feel.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah, Curtis may feel him. Keep on pushing, yeah. That's the word I'm looking for. And he was a friend of mine. So that's what it's all about. Keep on pushing, ladies and gentlemen. We've had a great time this week, and uh getting ready for another great time. Summer's coming, and we're gonna get ready and then um get a new time in my life. Uh I didn't go to my baby's prom, you know, when I said about talk about uh my grandbaby. Uh uh, I'm so proud of her. I got her PT. She thinks she's so cute. She's all you know, and and I already wondered.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

None of us were invited to the prom, pop. None of us were invited to her prom.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Good thing. So no, then he and I. So but we just said we we gotta be at cover. She'll be in uh probably the next well, next few months, and we'll go from there. So we'll keep on pushing. All right, let's keep on pushing, ladies and gentlemen. This is the lovem. There's your side. There's my side. And where's the side?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

And somewhere in the middle, there's the truth.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Keep on writing.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

I've got to keep on pushing.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

This episode of Shelly's Plum Line was written, produced, and edited by Dr. Chelli's doormark and Dr. Martin. It was produced by D product and Plumline and dirt and the if you are a fan of Chelly's Plum Line and you like what we are doing here, please remember to subscribe on your plugin platform point. And continue the conversation on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. This is Mark Jamblet.