Is Education Running Scared?

In today's episode, Ricky highlights the erosion of intellectual freedom in Alabama, citing issues at Auburn University and the University of Alabama regarding the dismantling of faculty senates and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives. They argue that university leadership is either cowed by the threat of losing state funding or ideologically aligned with white supremacist efforts to limit diversity and critical thinking.

They challenge the myth that universities are inherently progressive spaces, noting that many never truly committed to integration in the first place.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Hello, world, and welcome to Shelley's PubLive. Truth for talking of tough topics, hosted by Dr. Shelley Stewart. Shelley started broadcasting in 1949, and he has been on a journey to discover the truth for humanity ever since. And at 91 years of age, Shelley still sits down before the microphone as he pursues answers to tough topics, challenging us to change the experience of being human and our public on humanity. Ladies and gentlemen, I am honored to present the newest member of the Radio Hall of Fame and the oldest podcaster in the world. Get ready. Here comes Jelly.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I am his son, Dr. Ricky Jones, as always accompanied by my dear brother, Mark Jamrods, who handles all the technical stuff, the intellectual stuff as well. We could not do this. We could not do this without Mark. How are you doing, Mark? Good to see you again, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

I'm good, man. How are you? Um again, we just just did go visit Shelly. He's he's on the mend and uh looking forward to getting back behind the microphone.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, you know, this time in my father's life, one, it's a it's a a tough time and a precious time simultaneously. Um, listeners to our our our little humble show, understand. And again, you know, please like it, please share it, please tell your friends about Shelly's plumb line. Come in and join us as we try to educate and entertain. So this is a tough time, but it's also uh a blessing. You know, my father's lived to be 91 years old, has lived a fabulous life, is still living a fabulous life, going through a host of medical issues that you know are to be expected at 91, but he's continuing to fight. He really wants to get back um on the show and doing other things in his life, but we we gotta deal with the the reality of the medical issues that he's dealing with, and he has to deal with them too. So we're trying to kind of slow roll him, you know, back to health where he can join us uh again. I mean, but you know, you all sitting around talking about playing golf and all of that stuff, conversations that I cannot participate, and I don't play golf, you know. That's that's for you and my old man.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Well, I did I did see him last week, and he said, uh, you know, what we need to talk about on the plumb line. What does he always like to talk about? What's the most important thing that he thinks is to talk about, and that is the big E-word education, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Educate, he wants to build everything around education, and I and and I and I think that's smart, right? I I think we understand that there's a there's there's a certain audience that's going to listen to this podcast, right? If if you are a person who is anti-intellectual, if you're not concerned with history, you're not concerned with a lot of the things that we're going through in this country and in this world, this Shelley's Plumline is just it's just not the platform for you. You know, we're we're not debating whether you know Beyonce or Billy Holiday were were the best singers. The answer the answer is Billy Holiday, by the way. But you know, yeah, we're we're not really debating um the the the merits or problems of Jay-Z releasing his his last celebration album, and you can only buy it at Target. I mean, because I I think those things are really clear. If if people don't understand that, Jay-Z is a drug dealer who found another hustle in rap, he doesn't really care anything about racial progress. But and we could talk about those things in that context, but I think a lot of people who where where those things are the center of their world, man, that this this just ain't for you. But but my father's right, education is really, really important, and what's happening in education in this country right now, particularly along lines of race, but in other ways as well, is having an impact that I don't think people are fully comprehending right now, Mark. And I'm seeing it because I'm kind of sitting right at the blast point, you know, being a university professor at the University of Louisville, and I'm duty bound to let you all know the University of Louisville does not approve of my message, of this message or any other that I give you. So, you know, I I love to talk about that, and we'll talk about it a little bit more in this show. But I want to start off, Mark. And I shared this with you last week, and I said we need to share this with our audience. A commentary by brother in Alabama with you. He is the editor of the Alabama Reflector, a brother named Brian Lyman. And he a few weeks ago um talked about the impact of what's going on at Auburn University, particularly, where the board of trustees there eradicated Auburn University's faculty senate and seized control of constructing the curriculum at the school. And you also talked about some of the stuff that's going on at the University of Alabama, your flagship there in Tuscaloosa. So disempowerment of faculty, um, attacks on diversity, um, you know, just some really, really terrible stuff. And Lyman argues that the leadership, the leadership at Auburn, the leadership in Alabama has really, really failed the faculty, they failed the staff, they fail the students. And in effect, they fail the state of Alabama. And what I'm telling the audience is what's happening in Alabama, and and Alabama's one of those states, man, that is always trying to lead the race to the bottom, it seems, but but it is not alone in what's happening. So please give it a listen to the editor of the Alabama Reflector, Brian Lyman. And when we come back, I want to discuss, you know, some of the stuff that he talked about.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Alabama's colleges and universities have faced unprecedented attacks over the last several years. I wish I could say Alabama's college and university leadership was meeting the challenge or even standing up for their students and professors. They are not. We were reminded of this last month when Auburn University's Board of Trustees voted to dissolve its faculty senate and take more direct control over curriculum. Now, this is odd. None of the 16 members of the Board of Trustees appear to have any experience teaching or leading higher education, much less having the subject matter experience to design a college course. But then, this isn't about the students or teachers at Auburn. This is about the politicians in Montgomery. The Republican legislature has threatened educators with termination if they teach from a list of so-called divisive concepts. Last spring, they passed a new law abolishing faculty tenants and imposing new requirements on tenure. Throughout all of this, Auburn and the University of Alabama's leadership have been meek and weak. Instead of fighting for their employees and their students, they've given ground. Both shut down a repurposed diversity program. UA closed spaces for black and LGBTQ students. Then UA shut down magazines aimed at black and female students. So why are leaders doing that? They might agree with the legislature, or they might think they're blunting future offenses. In fact, they're encouraging future attacks. By suggesting Auburn's educators need oversight, they're validating past criticism and encouraging more. And that's going to lead to a slow destruction of Auburn's core mission, where academic inquiry is replaced by political conformity. Where the people of Auburn University matter less than the politicians on Goat Hill. That will cause students to suffer and talented educators to go elsewhere. That's what surrendering gets you. Auburn's Board of Trustees may think they're running things, but they're simply turning Auburn University into an extension of state politics. And they're turning themselves into political tools.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

How disturbing was that, Mark? I mean it's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Well, it's troubling for sure, obviously, when you um think that uh you know government is stepping in and and trying to to run education. Why do you think they're so afraid to to to react to that?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

The the leaders of the schools?

SPEAKER_04 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

I think there are comp I think there are a few things going on, man. Um one, here are the possibilities. Here are the possibilities. I think the leaders of these schools, these presidents, um, presidents, provosts, all of them. Only one of two things are true. Either they're too afraid to fight to fight these folk off, or at least try to fight them off. That it it cripples, they're so afraid that it cripples them. And and and they'll just go along to get along because they're afraid that they'll lose their jobs, they're afraid of attacks, they're afraid of fighting for what's right. Right. That's that's the first possibility. The second possibility is that they agree with them. Yeah. I I don't I don't know if there is another option in that, you know, as the governor, the board of trustees are are wiping out the faculty senate, wiping out any programs to try to increase the diversity of these schools. I mean, these people are really making the argument. We want these schools to be all or at least mostly white. And we want what's taught here is they make these arguments demonizing quote unquote DEI. This isn't really about DEI. It used to be CRT, even though most of these folk didn't understand anything about critical race theory, right? But what I think they're really doing is trying to set up incubators, and this is these are the conservatives, these are the the Republicans, they're setting up incubators to train future generations of white supremacists. That's that's really what it is, and I don't think there's any way around that, and of course, that's I'm intentionally triggering people by saying white supremacists. I'm not saying conservatives, right? I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm I'm intentionally doing it. And as you know, what I mean by white supremacy is a system where white people are the ones, the only ones who at the end of the day have the ability, the right to know what the problems are, in their opinion, to think about what the solutions to those problems are, and then to decide what's going to be done and what's not gonna be done. That's what white supremacy is. And so that thing they're setting up to try to keep that in place.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

So, you know, I'm a guy that comes from the world of marketing, and and one thing that they tell you is that you have to really understand your audience. And you know, could it be too that you know, that board is maybe they maybe it is what you may part of what you're saying. They're agreeing with it. They're also thinking, well, could you imagine if they didn't? What what would happen if they stood up and said, no, we're not gonna do that? What kind of controversy do you think would be going on at the University of Alabama if one of them said, No, we're we're we're gonna keep it, we're not gonna change it, we're not gonna do what you're saying. Um we are gonna continue to have DEI programs, we're gonna continue to well, the first thing that would happen would be that the funding would they threaten to cut the funding, right? Okay, but the second part would be what's going on over there? Do I want to go to school there? Would you do you think the audience would buy into still wanting to go to the to the university if they were standing up for that?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I don't know. That depends on what audience you're talking about. You know, what what what is your audience? I mean, because in effect, you people who say that, well, we'll we'll cut the funding. One, you're using capitalism to do evil. That's that's really what you're doing. You know, if if if Hitler would have said, hey, look, if you don't incarcerate or crucify these Jews, we're gonna we're gonna cut your funding. Right? I mean, the at some point the question is they're questions about right and wrong and truth and lies. This idea that all of these black kids, these black faculty members are they they they lack merit, that they weren't able to go to these schools until they was a situation was set up where they could get in with all of these unwarranted advantages. No, that that's that's BS. These these people, people who look like me and my father, were kept out of schools like Auburn and the University of Alabama simply because of the color of our skin. Period, because of white racism, because of white supremacy. Well, we and and programs were set up eventually, largely during the civil rights rights movement. Because keep in mind, these schools haven't been integrated for that long. All of these schools began to get integrated the 50s into the 60s. You know, some held out all in into the early 70s, and even once they were integrated, you I challenge people to look at the numbers, right? Look at the numbers. There ain't that many black folk at these schools now, at these predominantly white schools. Auburn, Alabama, University of Louisville, the University of Kentucky, you know, in the state of Kentucky where I am. There just aren't that many black people at these schools. There certainly aren't that many black professors. So, what are these people so afraid of? I guess, I guess I can understand it. Um, as we talked about Mark, you know, is it's like with the the gender-neutral bathrooms, man. All these transgender folk in these bathrooms, you know, terrorizing people, right? Yeah, so we want to be all the time. Yeah, it happens to you all the time, you know. It's just a lie. Yeah, it's just a lie. Another thing that's really scary to me. When I went through graduate school in particular, right? All of us were taught to do research, no matter your major, you could be a social worker, a political scientist, a chemist. You were going to take a quantitative and qualitative analysis, and you were going to also read and have very rigorous discussions in graduate seminars. And we were always told, look, you're gonna come up with a hypothesis, but then you got to do the research, and you got to go where the actual research leads you because your ultimate goal is the truth. Uh-oh. That's your ultimate goal as a researcher, as a professor, your ultimate goal is the pursuit of the truth. And what many of these university, these politicians are lying, okay. This diversity is evil. No, diversity strengthens societies, and they're not put off by DEI programs or CRT. They're put off by well, they're fueled by racism. That's that's the that's what is fueling these people. That's that's just the truth. These these these legs, these conservative legislators are fueled by racism. Organizations like the Heritage Foundation, Alec, you know, all of these organizations that people never even heard of because they don't pay attention to them, the whole MAGA movement, they're fueled by racism. And it is sad, it's unfortunate that the leaders of these predominantly white schools are not stepping up and simply saying, Listen, the arguments that you all are making about what's wrong with our schools and placing the onus on people who don't look a certain way. Those are just lies. It's just not true. And we we can't go along with that. I mean, you got the power to do what you're gonna do, but we we we can't be complicit in it. Right now, you know, they're in on it.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

So, yeah, um, well, we know we know Alabama's history, right? There was a certain a certain governor that I believe stood in front of the doors. Oh how could you forget? Don't tell me you forgot that.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I I have not forgotten it. Yeah, I have not forgotten it. Standing in the schoolhouse door. Yeah, Wallace, I think his name was.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah. So what do we do about it, huh? Well what is the impact?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Well, Mark, I I I think I think the first thing that that we gotta do is figure out a way. Well, no, I'm not even gonna say figure out a way because that sounds like it's complicated. The first thing we have to do as individuals and and groups is tell the truth. We and and we gotta we can't be passive, and we certainly can't be quote unquote neutral about this. Make no mistake, these are racially hostile times in America right now. And people, well, you're dividing us. Listen, listen, what's really dividing us is this race towards white supremacy. Because what's happening right now among the black people that I know, whenever we run into a white person that we don't know, we're suspicious of them. Because we're looking at them like, are you down with this? You know, are you are you down with with with god with this overt racist stuff that's happening under the guise of the MAGA movement, make America Great Again? It's it's madness. Are you down with with this president that's not just doing offensive things, you know, but things that are are this these are campaigns of racial terror. And so we're looking at white folk that we meet, it's like, are you a danger to me? Are you a danger to my child? Should I have a conversation with you? I've never felt that way before. I've never been that on edge with with people who I do not know. So is that divisive? Call it what you want. Black folk, many are like, hey man, we gotta protect ourselves, we gotta protect our children, you know. But we gotta tell the truth in the midst of that, and we gotta remember history too. It is really, really important, especially in in education with with intellectuals. Remember, as societies have raced towards autocracy and ultimately failure, they always come after the intellectuals, they always come after the universities in the 20th century. They did it in Italy, they did it in Germany, right? They they're doing it all over. They did they did it in Hungary, and now they're doing it in America because they want to recapture the universities again and use them as tools that will limit people's thinking. In particular, they want to orient the ruling class in such a way that it will think a particular way across lines of race. So, in effect, they'll tell non-whites if you're going to make it through this system, then you got to shuffle. You got to think and behave a particular way. And you got to give in to capitalism, like completely. In effect, if it ain't profitable, it ain't worthwhile. If it ain't profitable, it ain't worthwhile. And so we're gonna threaten you with the money. Always threaten you with the money, and and and and and that's that's

SPEAKER_04 22:00

That's kind of saying well that's definitely been been the uh the pattern that we've seen, obviously, that if you're not complying, you're gonna lose your funding.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

So so you know that's happened throughout the the education system. And what was there not um some fear with Harvard early in the uh administration that they were uh in fear of losing some grants? Of course. So they complied, you know, a number of schools have already made moves to um to bend the knee, if you will. To bend the knee to capitalism.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

And I want and and I want to be fair, right? Because all schools have not functioned in the same way. There's some schools like the Alabamas and Auburn's of the world, the University of Florida's of the world, that have just been absolutely terrible. I mean, they've been terrible. Um, then there's some other schools like Harvard, Columbia, they've kind of been a mixed bag, and those are odd schools too. Obviously, Harvard has um an endowment. Harvard's endowment is multiple times greater than every HBCU in the country combined, for instance. So unusually rich schools. Um, so there's been some mixed bags, and then there's some other schools that have fought back, you know, schools like um George Washington and schools like that that have fought back. So it's it's complex. It's not as simple to say all the colleges and universities have bit the knee. That's not true. And so I think we need to pay more attention to some of the presidents that have fought back, that have stood their ground, that have said, hey, this is wrong. You know, um, so money just can't be everything, man. Yeah, and and and I do and I do believe that this is going to end at some point, right? I think it's going to end at some point, Mark. And and and I want to explode another myth, too. There's this idea that all these colleges and universities, white schools, have been so progressive in their thinking. You know, this idea, oh, universities are 15 to 20 years ahead of the communities in which they sit. So Tuscaloosa might function one way, but the University of Alabama, man, they they're gonna be decades ahead. They just wait for the community to catch up. That's a damn lie. That's one. Two, there's this idea that these schools wanted to diversify to integrate in the first place. Most of them didn't. They didn't want to. And so now that they have a chance to drive black folk out in particular, they're seizing it. Many of them are seizing that that that that opportunity. So I think the good thing about this, we see different schools, we we have the chance to see them for what they are. There's no way in hell I would send my child to Auburn right now. I wouldn't send my child to Auburn, I wouldn't send my child to Alabama, I wouldn't send my child to Louisville or the University of Kentucky. I would not send my child to the University of Florida. I just wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

So, you know, I think early on in this uh in the episode you talked about King, and you said that, you know, one of the worst things is that friends who remain silent.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

You know, yeah. So what can we do?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Say something, man. I mean, America told you, I think during the war on terror, see something, say something. You know, if you see something, say something. Now, I I do believe, Mark, there's some places that um and and this is for another show, because uh we're we're coming up on on our time for this particular one. But there are some places I think that are just lost spaces. You know, like I I think Kentucky is a lost space. I think can I think Kentucky has made its decisions, you know. It it had some windows where it could be better, but but they have fought very diligently. I mean, come on, and and we've talked about this before. If you are the eighth whitest state in the country, which Kentucky is, why do you need an anti-diversity movement? I mean, you already have a question. You you already have no diversity, right? What is the fear of this to begin with, you know? I I told you, man, white people feel like, hey, listen, not all white people, but I don't know which ones are which. So if you ain't that person, you better declare yourself to me. Okay. But some of these people feel like, hey, listen, Negroes, we stole this country fair and square. Y'all were never really meant to be citizens here. You were meant to serve us, and that's the way we want to keep it, and that's the way we're gonna work to keep it. And anything that you do to try to move forward out of that condition, we are going to try to thwart it. What this is really about is to wipe out all the gains of the civil rights movement. That is the latest iteration of white supremacy in America. And if you understand American history, and this is why the Trump administration is trying to change how history is taught, this is why the Trump administration is attacking the African American history, uh, African American Museum in DC. They do not want the true history of America taught. They say, Oh, that's casting aspersions on America, that's putting us in a bad light. You're the ones that enslaved people. Okay, we didn't. You did that. Your ancestors did that. You're the ones that killed the Native Americans, marched them on that trail of tears, and almost wiped them out of existence. You did that, you're the ones that lynched people, you did it. You're the ones that initiated Jim Crow. You did it. You're the ones that tried to keep people and their children out of access to education, social spaces, even lunch counters because of the color of their skin. You did that stuff, man. That ain't putting you in a bad light. That's telling the damn truth, right? That's telling the truth. So King said, look, at the end of the day, it ain't gonna be, you know, the actions of our enemies that hurt us the most, but the silence of our friends. And as a black man in America, as the son of a black father and mother, as the the father of a black daughter. I'm asking, where are our friends right now? Where are our friends? People talking about being neutral. No, man. If I was in Haiti during the Haitian Revolution, I wouldn't have been neutral. I would have chosen to stand with Toussaint Leo Vatrue. I would have stood with Nat Turner in Virginia in 1831. I wouldn't have been neutral. I would have stood with Frederick Douglass in 1854 when he said, What is the 4th of July to a slave? I would have been with him. Okay? If I were in in Nazi Germany, I wouldn't have been neutral. I would have stood with the Jews. I would have fought with them. I'm like, y'all wrong for doing what you're doing to these people. If I was in South Africa, you think I would have stood with the doggone apartheid regime? No, I would have stood with Stephen Biko and Nelson Mandela. I would not have been neutral, and I ain't gonna be neutral right now. And anybody who says they're neutral, I don't see them as neutral. I see them as against us. Thank you all for listening to Shelley's Plum Line, the most conscious father-son podcast in the universe with our dear brother Mark Jamroz. Remember, like it, share it, rate it highly. If you don't, as our brother Bomani Jones says, I'm inclined to believe that you're a hater. And remember, until next time, there's always your side.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

There's my side.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

And somewhere in the middle, Mark Jamroz, there is the truth.

unknown 29:41

Woo!

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Listen at that old man.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

And Mr.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Ricky just gave it to you. Get well, Dr. Shelley the Playboy Steward. We look forward to having you back with us in the audience. We look forward to having you with us next week. Thank you for listening and keep on thinking. Do not be neutral in these troubled times.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

It was produced by Stewart Productions at the Plumline Studios in Terrett, Alabama. If you are a fan of Shelly's Plumb Line and you like what we are doing here, please remember to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. Give us a review and share this podcast with others. Follow us and continue the conversation on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. This is Mark ShareMods. We will see you next week.