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The Homeschool How To
I don't claim to know anything about homeschooling, so I set out on a journey to ask the people who do! Join me as I chat with homeschoolers to discuss; "why are people homeschooling," "what are all the ways people are using to homeschool today," and ultimately, "should I homeschool my kids?"
The Homeschool How To
#131: From Public School Teacher to Unschooling Advocate: Angela Harders Exposes the System
What happens when a passionate public school teacher realizes the system she’s devoted her life to is built on control, coercion, and outdated standards?
In this powerful episode of The Homeschool How To Podcast, former K–12 teacher Angela Harders shares her eye-opening journey from traditional education to homeschooling and ultimately unschooling her own children. After over a decade in the classroom, Angela came to a painful conclusion: she was part of a system that often relied on fear, compliance, and force—not freedom or curiosity.
Her story begins with a desk thrown across the room on her very first day of teaching—and ends with her daughter launching a popsicle business by age 7, all without ever using a formal curriculum.
Angela opens up about:
- Her shift from teacher to unschooling parent
- Why she believes children can learn 13 years of math in just 6 months
- How her daughter learned to read without being taught
- Why the education system is designed for obedience, not understanding
- The power of real-world learning and self-direction
- How she now helps families legally unschool through PAX Academy and Peaceful World Schoolers
Whether you're a curious parent, frustrated teacher, or seasoned homeschooler, Angela’s story will challenge everything you think you know about education—and inspire you to rethink what learning really looks like.
👉 If you've ever searched:
- "Should I homeschool my child?"
- "What is unschooling?"
- "Why are teachers leaving the classroom?"
- "How do unschoolers learn math?"
…this episode is for you.
Contract Angela:
https://peacefulworldschoolers.com/
Cheryl's Guide to Homeschooling: Check out The Homeschool How To Complete Starter Guide- Cheryl's eBook compiling everything she's learned from her interviews on The Homeschool How To Podcast.
👉 Enroll now for Excelsior Classes Fall 2025 — perfect for homeschoolers!
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Welcome to this week's episode of the Homeschool How-To. I'm Cheryl and I invite you to join me on my quest to find out why are people homeschooling, how do you do it, how does it differ from region to region, and should I homeschool my kids? Stick with me as I interview homeschooling families across the country to unfold the answers to each of these questions week by week. Welcome. Today, I have Angela Harters here. Angela, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you and I, we spoke a few months back. I was on your podcast. Tell everybody what that's called.
Speaker 2:The Peaceful World Schooling Podcast.
Speaker 1:I love it. And you also have a PAX University right PAX Academy.
Speaker 2:Yes, PAX.
Speaker 1:Academy. I love this. So there we have so much to get into because you've kind of done it all. So why don't you start by telling us what ages are your children? How long have you been homeschooling?
Speaker 2:My oldest is 11 and my son is 6. And technically we've been educating our children at home, without school, since the day that they were born Technically 11 years we've been homeschooling. But legally speaking, we started right from the very beginning when my daughter was 5. So legally 6 years, technically 11.
Speaker 1:What made you ever decide to homeschool in the first place?
Speaker 2:I had always wanted to homeschool because I had worked for over a decade as a public school teacher and I saw a lot of the problems and a lot of kind of the behind the scenes stuff that happens in a public school classroom and I knew that it was not going to be the kind of environment that I would want my children in. But because I was a single mom, I just didn't think it would be possible for me. But it was always my desire to be able to educate my children myself.
Speaker 1:So okay. So first, what would be like an example of something that you saw that you were like, yeah, I'm not doing this with my kids?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, I've taught everything from kindergarten through 12th grade. There was just stuff that was happening in every grade level, just from, you know, bullying to drugs and alcohol and bad language and negative influences and sexual stuff. I don't know if I could say that on your podcast, sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, things like that. And then you know those are kind of the stuff that everyone recognizes, right, the overt like this is bad. You know, we don't want our kids around bullying and these kinds of things. But as I started diving into and really researching what abuse looks like and how does abuse appear in different types of relationships, that was really what made me start beginning to see the school system through a completely different lens and I started realizing that the entire school system really can only function through abusive tactics such as force and coercion, threats, manipulation, isolation, trying to exert power and control over another human being.
Speaker 2:And when I started realizing that, at that point I was like there's no way I can continue to be a part of this system. That for the first time I was seeing, you know, like my eyes had been opened, that, wow, every aspect of my job as a teacher is forcing me to interact with students in ways that I believe are toxic and abusive and harmful, through force and coercion. And so, yeah, that was when I was like, nope, can't do this anymore and so I quit.
Speaker 1:And there's no way that that comes overnight. So what were you know? Briefly, like the small steps that got you there.
Speaker 2:Well, my very first day as a teacher, I was teaching Spanish one at a public high school and it was a title one school. So this was the school that had. The 99% of the population was African American. Over 50% of the population was on free and reduced lunch, so they were more like lower income families. And the very first day I mean as soon as the bell rang I knew that there was going to be a major problem. I had 30 desks in my classroom. My smallest class size had 35 students and my largest had 42. And so for that very first period, I had 42 students that were on my roster, 30 desks, and I'm thinking what am I going to do with all these other kids who are not teenagers, that aren't going to have a seat?
Speaker 2:And there was a boy who walked in and he was really, really tall I think it was a basketball player or something. He was super tall and he sat down and put his feet over the chair in front of him and started like texting on his phone. And I went over to him and I said excuse me, could you please put your feet down so someone else could sit in this chair? And without even thinking, he stood up and he was I mean, towering over me, and he was like, started screaming at me and was like B? Who the H? Do you think you are telling me what to do?
Speaker 2:And and I was like whoa, I mean, I was 21 years old, fresh out of college, you know. He was only a couple years younger than me and I was terrified. He was screaming at me and I just said, you know, I'm your teacher. And he continued screaming at me and he was like man, f this class and F you. And he picked up the desk, threw it at me and walked out of my classroom. And I never saw him again after that, until graduation day when he walked across the stage and they handed him a diploma, even though he never attended my class. And so that was like my introduction to teaching in the United States. Was this interaction with this boy that was screaming at me and cursing at me and throwing stuff at me and walking out of my class without even caring?
Speaker 1:Did you feel like you had backing from administration or no?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. There were. There were so many fights in that school. I mean we would call for security and they would never show up. There was just so many issues all the time.
Speaker 1:Well then. So you got to think of like, are the other students safe if this is going on? You know, not only for your safety but the other students as well. And you know, your story reminds me of the same things that my friend would tell me about. She taught in the inner city here in Albany, new York, and yeah, she didn't have desks for every student and I think they changed out a coat closet or something and made it her classroom. It was ridiculous. But then on that same summer that they did that for her, they also put in new carpets in the principal's office. It was like you have money, you're just choosing to use it on like new carpets to replace kind of new carpets. You know it's just disgusting. So okay, so that had to be huge. How hard was it leaving your job? I mean, you went to college for this. You went in what state?
Speaker 2:are you in? I'm in Maryland.
Speaker 1:Maryland. Okay, Because in New York you have to have a master's degree to to teach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't have to have a master's here, but I do have a master's degree. But being a teacher was my dream ever since I was a little kid, and so it was really difficult for me. I think when people become a teacher, no one becomes a teacher because we're hoping to get rich. We're hoping to, like, have this ginormous bank account. Teaching truly is a passion driven field.
Speaker 2:People become teachers because we love kids. We want to make a difference for children. Either we had a great experience in school and we want to share that with others, or we had a terrible experience in school and we want to make the difference for someone else. But people become teachers because we want to make a positive difference in the world, and so it was really difficult for me, as I started realizing that not only was violence and stuff happening around me, but that I was a part of perpetuating that violence against children by having to force and coerce them to do things that they didn't want to do and that, quite frankly, they would have no actual practical use for in their life.
Speaker 1:And are you meaning like testing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of things. I've taught a wide range of subjects over the years, but in the final years that I was teaching I ended up teaching algebra two at a public high school, which you know. My students would sit there and just miserable. I mean these are 15, 16, 17 year old. Most of them were boys. In the special education program they were just struggling with math. Math was not my forte, I was terrible at math.
Speaker 2:But they stuck me in that class because I was the special education teacher and so special education you don't have to be certified in the subject to support in the subject, because they have a professional math teacher who's teaching the math. I'm just there to kind of help out. And none of the other special education teachers in my school wanted to be in the math class because all of them were like oh, that's way too hard for us. And it just made me think, like you all are grown adults with master's degrees and you're scared to teach as an assistant teacher in a high school math class. That should say something to you about the relevance of this subject that we're teaching them. But that's besides the point. So they stuck me in there. I was like you know what I'll do it. It's fine, even though I think I got a C in algebra too when I was a student and I hadn't touched any of this stuff in 20 years. But I literally would teach myself the material the day before I had to teach it to my students. And in having to teach it to myself, I found that I really loved it. I really enjoyed it. It was fun, it was easy. Nothing about it felt hard or challenging for me. Completely the opposite of my experience in learning algebra 2 as a student that hated math and was struggling in that subject area.
Speaker 2:And they would ask me you know, ms Harders, when are we ever going to use this? And you know, I think a lot of teachers try to. Well, you know, you got to pass these tests and you got to get into college and you might have to use this someday. But that wasn't my answer. I just I was honest with them. I was like you know what? You're never going to use this. You will never have to graph a quadratic function in real life. You never will. And I apologized to them. I said I am so sorry that I have to take up precious time from your childhood, from your life, the best years of your life to force you to do something that is completely useless in your actual life. I'm so sorry that I have to do that, but this is where we are, and so let's try to get through it the best that we can, and I'll help you, you know. Get through the rest of this year and we're going to do great and I'm going to make it as fun as possible.
Speaker 2:And they said they really liked learning math with me, I think because I wasn't a math teacher so I could explain it in ways that they could understand, because math wasn't my thing, you know. But that was what we did. I work with them and my students actually did really, really well. They got you know A's and B's in the subject and ended up finishing out the year great. But I think a big part of that was just being able to be honest with them. You're not going to use this. But those kinds of questions of like why are we doing this? Why are we making kids learn stuff that is absolutely useless?
Speaker 1:Well, you probably know why now, because you look into that sort of thing. You know the dumbing people down create the worker bee, get them kind of so bogged down in this busyness that they don't take time to step back and look at life as a whole. And what do I really want? What do I want to do with my time? That's been the biggest thing for me since leaving my government job and homeschooling the kids is like whoa, I get to pick what I do with my day. Like this is weird. I have not done this ever in my life and I'm 41 now. So I'm like we can just go kayaking if we want to go kayaking. And, granted, you know you need money. So I do the social media stuff, just like you do, and my husband works, so it is making sure that I am, you know, always there to watch the kids as the primary, and you know so.
Speaker 1:But it's interesting to just not be told where I have to be every day and what I have to do. Like I'm. I'm discovering that I like I've literally never kayaked in my life until last month. And then yesterday my you know, one of the other homeschool moms was like yeah, I got a couple of kayaks and paddle boards. Do you want to go up to the lake? And I'm like, wow, all right, I guess at four, 30 in the evening we can just do that. And it was just so weird, like we don't have to worry about getting dinner on the table at a certain time, we don't have to worry about getting the kids to bed at a certain time Like it's so weird to me, but it's so awesome too, all right. So tell me. So you had your daughter, was it a daughter? 11 years ago? Yes, all right, and you've been home with her since. How did you do that? You said you were a single mom.
Speaker 2:I am a single mom. Yes, well, when my daughter was five and actually sorry, when she was four, you know, of course I didn't anticipate I would be able to homeschool. So I actually was teaching at that time when she was four years old and I was. So I would go to school every day and teach algebra two and then I would come home every day to my super passionate and positive and curious and creative four-year-old and I think seeing the dichotomy of the two types of students was a big part of me stepping away. You know, I kept seeing like every day I'm coming home to this child who's so passionate and creative and curious and asking a million questions and loves learning.
Speaker 2:And then every day I go to school with these kids who've been in this system for, you know, 10 years, 11 years, 12 years, sometimes more, and they're miserable and they're bored and they're apathetic and they're frustrated and they feel like they're stupid and like they have all these negative experiences around learning. And I was just like I want to preserve my child's love of learning as long as possible. So at the beginning I was working full time outside of the school and then, after that first year, just like you, I was like my passion isn't to be away from my kids all day, every day. I want to homeschool so I can be with them more, and so I just started looking for other ways to earn income and to organize my life, just like how you mentioned creating my life in a way that would work so that we could really have everything that we wanted. And what I wanted was to be able to be home full time with my kids and to earn a living, while I could also be here with her.
Speaker 1:So how did you do that?
Speaker 2:Goodness, I've done a lot of things over the years I have. After I, immediately after I left teaching, I actually started a business in my home where I would take care of other people's kids who were, like the parents had to work but they wanted their kids to well, they didn't want to send their kids to school, and so I kind of it was, I guess, like daycare for the older kids, for school age kids, and that worked out really great at the very beginning because I mean, with six kids, I was able to replace my teacher salary and I was able to be fully present with my kids and we would like go to parks and playgrounds and field trips and all this stuff every day, and she got to be around other kids and we could learn in a really small group and have that freedom and flexibility. So I really enjoyed that and so I did that for two years and then after the second year, my daughter was like Mom, I'm kind of tired of having kids play with my toys all the time, and so I just started looking for other things to do at that point. So I did investing in real estate. I've done private tutoring. I have done piano lessons, swim lessons, selling stuff on Facebook marketplace, investing in crypto, like all kinds of different stuff.
Speaker 2:But now what I do is I actually run two different homeschooling organizations. The first one is called Peaceful World Schoolers and that is a nonprofit where we do weekly field trips and events for families all over. We started out in Maryland but starting this year in September, we're actually going to be expanding into over 20 different states and three different countries. So we have parent mom you know, homeschool mom volunteers that plan amazing field trips and events all over the place.
Speaker 2:So if you want to check out our groups, you can join peacefulworldschoolerscom. It's totally free. You can join a local group near you, and if you don't have a local group near you, feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to help you start one. But it's an awesome way to just build community, because we really do believe that the best learning that our children can do is when they're exploring the real life and the real world with real people and real experts in all their fields and with real friends and a real community. So yeah, so that's Peaceful World Schoolers. And then the second part that I do is I started a private school for unschoolers, for homeschoolers and unschoolers, and it's called PAX Academy.
Speaker 1:So that's what I do now, and is that that's a physical location that people go to?
Speaker 2:So PAX Academy, it's a private school for homeschoolers and unschoolers and world schoolers, so we don't operate a physical location. We provide the legal covering of families to be enrolled in a private school with the freedom to unschool, and so basically, we handle the legal paperwork of all the things. So we issue transcripts and diplomas, we provide hundreds of resources for families to use and then, because you're enrolling in a private school, the parents are actually considered teachers with a private school and so they can use their PAX Academy teacher discount at any store that offers discounts for teachers. My family and I we actually were able to take a week-long cruise to Mexico and we used my PAX Academy discount to get the cruise for free. So that was fun. But, yeah, we get free stuff and we get free entrance in museums and discounts on art supplies and movies and all kinds of different things. Yeah, so that's what we do now. So we have students that are from all 50 states and we can accept students from almost every country in the world. Currently, we have students from four different countries.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. I will put links to all of that in the show's description so people can pop in and see what works for them. I mean, that is so cool. I don't even know where to begin to ask you how you thought of that. So let's just get into what your day looks like with your kids homeschooling. I hear this all the time. I can't homeschool for middle school and up. I'm not a science teacher. I can't teach writing. But, friend, homeschooling doesn't mean doing it alone. Let me tell you about Excelsior Classes, a live online Christian homeschool program with accredited teachers who love what they teach. Your middle schooler or high schooler can take biology, chemistry, digs in scriptures, world geography, writing club in a full course curriculum or just one class at a time. Fall registration is now open and classes fill up fast. Visit excelsiourclassescom to help your teen thrive. Today you can grab the link in my show's description. What does the day-to-day? You're obviously busy, but you're unschooling too, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when we first started out our homeschool journey, I had anticipated homeschooling I think, the way that most people think of homeschooling by doing school at home. In fact, I was so proud of myself I created this whole schedule that we were going to do 30 minutes of reading and 30 minutes of math and 30 minutes of science, and I was so proud of myself that I had actually built in 30 minutes of math and 30 minutes of science. And and I was so proud of myself that I had actually built in 30 minutes for recess. And I laugh at looking back at that now, but you know, I was so proud at that moment because it was like, oh, my daughter's gonna get 30 whole minutes for recess in the middle of our day, because the public school kids here they only get 15 minutes for recess, you know, and I thought that was going to be such a great, a great thing that my daughter could have 30 whole minutes of recess. And so that was what I had initially planned, or what I imagined that homeschooling was supposed to look like. Thank God, I never actually got to follow through with that plan because shortly before we officially started our homeschool year, I posted in a Facebook group and asked other homeschooling moms you know, if you could give any advice to a new homeschooling mom, what would you say? And I got hundreds of comments back from all these different women and moms and there was one comment in particular that stuck out to me Someone I wish I knew who it was. She left me a comment with two words. She said research, unschooling. And I had no idea at the time how those two words would completely transform my life and my family and my view on learning and school and the entire world and my relationship with my children. And so, yeah, that kind of started us on our journey.
Speaker 2:I started researching about unschooling and I was very skeptical, but at the same time I was very intrigued. You know, I spent a lot of years as a public school teacher, as a reading teacher, and I was very intrigued with this idea that children could learn how to read without being explicitly taught that idea. I had heard a lot of unschoolers say that, but I did not think that that was possible. I did not believe that that could be true, and so I wanted to see for myself, and so that was kind of how we stumbled into unschooling. I just I committed for her kindergarten year. I said okay for this one year of kindergarten on purpose. I am not going to teach my daughter anything. I am going to, instead of viewing myself as the teacher of my child, I'm going to begin to view myself as the best student of my child, and I'm going to do that for one year. Then'm going to learn all I can about this unique human being that God has given me to raise, and we'll see what happens at the end of the year. Tell us Honestly, my mind was completely blown.
Speaker 2:I was shocked. If you had told me you know again before that a kid could learn how to read without being taught, I would have been like there's no way. I mean, I was a reading teacher. That was my whole job was teaching kids how to read. And no, I was wrong. My daughter absolutely. By the end of that year she was reading completely on her own. I have no idea how that happened, because I did not teach her. We did not do a phonics lesson, we didn't do a workbook, a worksheet, a curriculum, like nothing. We did nothing that year and somehow, by the end of that year, so did you read books together, though like read aloud?
Speaker 2:We did yeah, I mean read nothing that was outside of the ordinary of, like, our normal life, like I always watch the TV with subtitles, or before we would go to bed we'd cuddle and read a book together. But I was never like you know, we're going to today's a day, you know, it wasn't like that. There was. There were no like OK, we're going to practice this phonics worksheet Nothing that I would typically use as a reading teacher, any of the strategies that I would use as a reading teacher. I didn't do any of that. I really was very intentional to like I am not going to teach my daughter how to read because I want to see if she can really do it herself, and I know that probably sounds crazy to a lot of people, but I figured, if I'm ever going to know for myself if it's possible, I have to be willing to do the experiment myself, and so that's what I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And I mean I'm on like I I've researched a little bit of unschooling. I'm sure there's a little bit more I could research. But to me it's like the you're living your life Right and as things come up that you see like the child led interest, sort of thing, then you might take out some books from the library or documentary, do a little bit of research on that, or if it's something that I find interesting because I'm like maybe if I get excited about it they will too.
Speaker 1:But I have done the phonics with my son. I have done the reading programs. He's still not reading. I mean he just turned seven this week, but that's okay, because I know that places like Finland they don't do anything formal until age seven and it's not like I've been hardcore. I've taken months off where we haven't done anything.
Speaker 1:I've tried all different curriculums and I'm like man, is this kid dyslexic or something? I've gotten him checked. He is not. But boys they kind of might mature a little bit slower and it doesn't really mean anything. So I try very hard to expose him to the phonics and whatnot, but not make it an overwhelming every day, like if something else is going on, you know, like today, for instance. He was up early so I said let's get some of your reading horizons. Is the program he's using right now. Let's get some of that done Within the, the program he's using right now. Let's get some of that done Within the first five minutes. His friends showed up to come over for the day and it was like, ok, well, put it away, you know, because you're going to be doing things, you know, playing with the kids, just so people know that it's not guaranteed your child will learn in the first grade year, but girls probably more easily, I would want to believe, because my son is like jumping off the walls all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and we see that a lot both in homeschool and in regular school, right Like I think a lot of it has to do with the preferred method of learning. Like I think girls are a little bit more willing to kind of sit down and learn through a more calm and passive way, whereas a lot of boys need to learn through their whole body, like they're very physical, and they need to learn through movement, they need to learn through, like touching things and actually doing things with their hands. And I think, you know, when it comes to reading, this was a really big concern for me. You know, I was like, oh gosh, what if I'm the only reading teacher in the world with a kid who doesn't know how to read, you know. But more than anything, again, I was while I was doing all of this. You know, my daughter was five, I was still teaching and and I would go to school and I would see these teenagers and they hated reading and I I just remember coming home and I would say what is the point? Right, like, what is the point?
Speaker 2:Reading is a tool. If I have a tool but I have no purpose for this tool and I don't see the value in this tool, then what does it matter if I have a tool? I mean, my dad passed away a couple years ago and he has a whole man cave in our garage with it's full of tools, and when we would go in there and I mean there's tools in there, I'm like I don't even know what this is, I don't know what this is for, I don't know what this does Like, and there's probably thousands of dollars worth of tools that is in his little man cave, but it doesn't matter. I mean, I've got plenty of tools in there, but if I don't, if I don't know how to use them and I don't have a purpose to use them and I don't have any desire to use them like matter, you know, and I think a lot of times we treat reading like that in the school system as like here's this tool, you have to have this tool.
Speaker 2:But when you force children to read things that they don't have a passion for and they don't have a purpose for and they're not interested in, there's no faster way to kill a child's love of reading than by doing that. And that's literally what I would see happen every day with my students. And then they get to be, you know, high school students and they're like, oh, I can't wait to graduate, I will never touch a book again, you know. It's like, okay, well, what is the point then of forcing them to read all these years if, for them, reading is just something that's miserable and difficult and boring and frustrating and totally not interesting for them at all? I'm like, I don't want that. I want my children to love reading rather than knowing how to just have the tool, like I want them to love the tool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it is hard, Because now I look back at life and you know I was not a reader. I mean, there were books I read over the years, but there are some people that always have, you know, a book that they are in the midst of reading. It would be like one year for me and I'm like man, I want to be one of those people that like reading. I just don't. And just like you said it was, I remember reading class in sixth grade and wanting to read the Goosebumps book and they told me, no, you can't read that. You know, it's got to be one of the other books that they had on their shelves and they were all boring and nothing I was interested in. So I just, I just sat there with a book open and stared at the clock and was like, all right, I guess this is what I'll do instead, because I didn't want to read what they wanted me to. You know, yeah, why kill the passion, Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly, and it's like I would rather my child discover what kinds of books that they actually enjoy reading than by me just trying to force them to read a book because that's what's next in the curriculum reading, than by me just trying to force them to read a book because that's what's next in the curriculum. You know, like that, that just I don't know. That never made sense to me.
Speaker 1:So do you do any curriculum with your kids?
Speaker 2:Nope, we've never done any curriculum.
Speaker 1:So cool. So do you all? Right, this is a great one. How do you, I guess, work through the situations that arise, maybe with a family member, cousins or whatnot, who are, you know, reading or doing a certain level math that your kids are not at yet because they're not in the standard grade levels? Right, how do you approach that? Because there is an insecurity in us parents that are like, oh, like, I know what I'm doing because I research it, but they don't know what I'm doing and they just think I'm being lazy. How do you approach that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think unschooling, while the word for a lot of people might be terrifying or just like new, the practice of it really isn't. You know, unschooling is what we did before our children started school and it's what we do now as adults, now that we're out of school, right Like since I've left school. And since you've left school, you've probably learned some things you know and you didn't learn them because you had a curriculum or a teacher that was telling you what to learn and how to learn it in the order you needed to learn. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:That is correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so how did you learn, like, how do you learn the things that you need to learn now as an adult?
Speaker 1:Jeez. So like how to do a podcast or run an Instagram page? Yeah, you watch some YouTube videos or read the comments section of a Facebook page. No trial and error. Hire a you know off of, like Fiverr, which you know. You can hire a freelance person that specializes in that area, you know, maybe gleam some things off of them, but you don't have to know all of the nuances. You can hire people out for the things that you don't know. So, yeah, I would say asking chat, gpt, even though we might be giving me what the government wants me to know. But that's all right, some things are useful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and all of that is is awesome, I mean, and that's what all of us know, right, and it's like you know how to do things that I don't know how to do, and I know how to do things that you don't know how to do, and that's OK. Like we, no one in the world would expect all of us to know all the same things of like, hey, I'm in grade 35, now you know I'm in grade 35. Like, have you bought your house, yet have you paid off your mortgage? Yet that happens in level 40. You know, like, no one, no one talks like that, no one thinks like that, no one operates like that, and yet we think that that's how it has to be, from K through 12.
Speaker 2:And so, like, are there things that my daughter doesn't know, that she would know if she's in school? Yes, I'll give you a prime example. I was talking about this with someone the other day. Actually, I know that my daughter does not know how to divide fractions, right, she does not know how to do that. And, and I asked this person should I be worried that my 11 year old does not know how to divide a fraction? Should I be worried about that? I'm curious what do you think? Should I be concerned?
Speaker 1:well, you know what? Now that you bring up, like, do you need to know that later in life and telling your kids, I'm sorry I'm wasting your childhood with this because you won't need it in life? Like I'm trying to think of the last time I divided a fraction. Like, gee, there's some pizza that's cut up and I need to know how many kids to give it to. I don't know. But no, never in the workforce. I worked for the government for 16 years. I never needed to know how to divide a fraction.
Speaker 2:Never, and that's in the fourth grade curriculum, right? So this is a fourth grade curriculum that they're supposed to learn how to divide fractions, right? My daughter does not know how to do that and I'm not worried about it for all the reasons that you said. I'm like, honestly, I can't even think of a situation in real life where I've ever had to divide a fraction, like in my entire adult life. I don't think I've ever done that, and if there was a need for me to ever divide a fraction, I have a tool in my hand that could literally do it perfectly every single time, in 0.2 seconds, right? So what does that say to me, the fact that my daughter doesn't know how to divide a fraction? It doesn't mean she's behind. It doesn't mean she's behind. It doesn't mean that she's slow. It doesn't mean that she's dumb or she'll never learn how to do that. All that it means is that that skill has not shown up in her actual real life yet, and that's okay, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's not relevant to her life yet, so there's no need to know it. Because the schools need to know it, because they need a measure of what we accomplished throughout the day and year so that funding can be, you know, attributed to this area, that area. You know, that's really it.
Speaker 2:It does not take 13 years to do math. This was actually a big question that I had when I first started unschooling. Those were my two big concerns. I was worried how is my daughter going to read if I don't teach her? And how is my daughter going to learn algebra two again, because I was the algebra two teacher. I'm like no one out here is graphing quadratic functions for fun, right. So how do you learn these higher levels of math as an unschooler? And so I actually started interviewing grown unschoolers, like people who had grown up with this philosophy, and I asked them those two questions how did you learn how to read without being taught, and how did you learn all the math that you needed to go to college? 13 years of math as an unschooler. And guess how long they told me it took them to learn 13 years of math as an unschooler Five years, good, guess I was. I had guessed one year, but every single grown unschooler that I interviewed said that they learned 13 years of math in six months or less. Every single one.
Speaker 1:And it's funny because when I think back to, like, what math did I take in school? You know, obviously you take addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and then there's the algebras, where all I know is that you have a letter in place of a number that you have to solve, for there's probably percentages somewhere. I don't remember ever taking like trigonometry, maybe I doubt it Calculus I don't remember a thing about it. Maybe is that pi 3.14? But what does that even mean? It's not relevant to my life at all. It's never come up. Yeah, what did we spend? 13?
Speaker 2:It's a really valid question, I think you know, and asking ourselves that question Like and you know, when I first started asking grown unschoolers this question, like how long did it take you? If you hear one person say, oh, it took me six months to learn 13 years of math, I'd be like, okay, maybe you're like some kind of freak genius and you did that. But I interviewed easily over 50 grown unschoolers and every single one of them told me six months or less. And the last lady that I asked this question to, I asked her how long it took her. She said that when she was getting ready to go to college, she had to take a college level math placement test because she wanted I can't remember what she wanted to do, but she wanted to do some career that required her to go to college, and so in order to get into the college, she had to take the math placement test. And so she studied for two weeks before doing this math placement test. Two weeks and that was it. She, like hyper-focused, studied for two weeks after never having any formal math training whatsoever in her entire life. Studied for two weeks. Not only did she pass the college level math entrance exam, but they placed her in sophomore level math in college after two weeks of studying.
Speaker 2:And these are people that didn't like math, right? Because if they would have liked math then they would have been doing it all along. Because, as unschoolers, you do what you love right? So these are people who weren't interested in math whatsoever until they had a purpose for it. And then, once they had a purpose for it, now they have a reason to learn it. They learn it really quickly, they learn it really easily.
Speaker 1:They learn it just goes back to you apologizing to these kids, saying I'm sorry I'm wasting your childhood with this. You're never going to need it. Oh my God, what a waste of time.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, and how many parents right Like and when I started hearing these stories I started reflecting on that. I'm like how many parents have wasted so many precious hours in their evening after school fighting with their kids about math homework? Evening after school fighting with their kids about math homework like arguing with them about studying for a math test or the grades that they got or whatever, on some stupid math whatever or something. For 13 years they've been fighting with their kids about math homework and the kids feel stupid and they feel frustrated and they feel bored and they're like confused and lost and and all of these like negative things. When we could have avoided all of that and just given them the freedom to pursue what they love and then, when they were ready or had a reason to learn that higher level math, they'd learn it in six months or less thinking about homeschooling but don't know where to start.
Speaker 1:well, I've interviewed a few people on the topic actually 120 interviews at this point with homeschooling families from across the country and the world and what I've done is I've packed everything I've learned into an ebook called the Homeschool How-To Complete Starter Guide. From navigating your state's laws to finding your homeschooling style, from working while homeschooling to supporting kids with special needs, this guide covers it all, with real stories from real families who've walked this path. I've taken the best insights, the best resources and put them all into this guide. I've taken the best insights, the best resources and put them all into this guide. Stop feeling overwhelmed and start feeling confident. Get your copy of the Homeschool How-To Complete Starter Guide today and discover that homeschooling isn't just about education. It's about getting what you want out of each day, not what somebody else wants out of you. You can grab the link to this ebook in the show's description or head on over to thehomeschoolhowtocom.
Speaker 2:Like why would anyone choose to be miserable for 13 years?
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? Well, because the system has designed it that way to make us think that we need to be right, like yeah, I mean it was eye opening for me to realize, and I think it took a matter of years to like slowly decompress from that system. And yeah, like under you almost have to get mad to like, oh my god, you wasted so much time of mine. But do you see like a homeschool revolution or an unschool revolution going on in the world right now?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The more that I do this, the more I'm convinced that unschooling or self-directed education is the future of education. Nothing else makes sense to me. It does not make sense for me to force my children to waste the best years of their life on things that are completely worthless to them and to destroy a relationship in the process, make them miserable in the process, make them feel, you know, frustrated and all these other things in the process. No, when we can choose to live in a way and they can learn in a way that is full of joy, that is full of passion, that is full of purpose, that is full of love and patience and peace and no stress, who wouldn't want this?
Speaker 1:Well, you haven't lived in my household, especially with my seven-year-old boy and all of his seven-year-old friends. Peace and stress-free isn't exactly what I'd say. But you know what was really sweet All the boys today. I made dinner and I go okay, who's eating here? And I just put, you know, plates of food out on our screen porch and they all go. Oh, I am, I am, I am and they all come over to eat and I go. My husband goes. You know you don't have to feed everybody. You fed him lunch. Why are you feeding him dinner too? I go, you know what? Because I didn't grow up like this. I didn't grow up in a household that people wanted to be at, and it is as stressful as it is to like, make sure this one's not killing that one and this one's not flying a dirt bike into a tree, and you know like it is nice to have the place where, like, people want to be and your kids want to be, and you know.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And food does that right. Like food is such a uniter, you know, like in just bringing people together and making you feel comfortable and at home, and that's so cool and I'm sure your children are going to look back on that and be so thankful that you took the time to do that, to look back on that and be so thankful that you took the time to to do that like the time, the money and the effort to offer lunch and dinner to their friends so that they can stay and enjoy a little bit longer with you guys.
Speaker 1:What a gift yeah, I hope, I hope they. I keep saying I want my kids, in order to get my kids to appreciate what I do, I want to like drop them off into, like the inner city for three days. Not that there isn't love and stuff there, but there is probably not the dirt bikes, the four wheelers that you know, all the things. Like my son pouted today Cause I was like you're done with the dirt bike, I need you to be more responsible and I just at this point I feel like when you get hurt on it, it's no longer your fault, it's mine, cause I recognized the signs that you weren't mature enough for it yet. And, oh my God, he pouted for so long because all he had to ride was the four wheeler. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like this isn't the kid I'm trying to raise. I want to raise like someone who is appreciative. So I got to find like mission work or something we can go on.
Speaker 2:So we're actually we're going to be going to Guatemala next year and actually one of the reasons why we're going to Guatemala is exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:I went on my first mission trip when I was 12 years old and we went and volunteered at like an orphanage there, and we're actually going to be going back to one of the orphanages that I volunteered at with my kids and we're leading a group of peaceful world schoolers and so, yeah, our students are getting community service hours and they can also get high school and college credit for traveling with us.
Speaker 2:But but what you were talking about is literally the goal. Like I want my children to see that there are people in the world that don't live the way that we do, that don't have the blessings that we have, and and really have that eye opening experience that I had when I was 12. They're like, oh my gosh, like there are people in the world that are literally living in cardboard boxes and don't have water and don't have electricity and like this is not like what I'm used to, and so I can be grateful for my four wheeler and grateful for my house and my bed, and you know, like all these other things, that that, for so many other people, is such a luxury, so you should come with us to Guatemala next year.
Speaker 1:Hey, send me the information. I will definitely look that over. I am a chicken but I think I could. I could do it. It's funny because I remember the same friend that that worked in the inner city school. That was in like this tiny little room that I was talking about earlier, with more kids than desks. I remember her telling me about one of her trips that she had to do. I think it was for school. Maybe she had to do. I think it was for school. Maybe she had to teach abroad. And she said, Cheryl, these kids they were playing in like a dump, like a garbage dump. That was their playground. They were the happiest kids I've ever seen in my whole life, like more happy than any child in America she has ever seen. I don't know what country she was in, but that's always stuck with me. What did you see working in the school system as far as that goes, the appreciativeness or just the happiness level or depression level and what did you change for your kids?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh. Well, I mean, mental health is a huge problem in schools nowadays. So many kids, I mean. We had students even in elementary school that they were putting them on second graders on anti-anxiety medication and I'm like, why is a second grader on anti-anxiety medication Like you should be playing and happy, like these are the best, the best years. Right, you're seven. What are you anxious about that? You need to be drugged to like function, you know, and yeah. So a lot of the mental health issues are a major problem in school. But actually one of my years as a teacher, I took my students from that.
Speaker 2:The first high school that I taught at, largo High School is again, you know, low income school and I took a group of students there were like 25 of us and we went to Guatemala and they served, and so over spring break we spent our spring break serving in Guatemala. We were digging wells for people who didn't have water. We were digging holes to help them plant food and teach them how to like grow their own fruits and vegetables. We played with the kids at the orphanage. We served food to families that were living in literally in the dump. Like your friend mentioned, they're entire families that literally just live in the dumps and they'll sleep in, you know, whole family in a cardboard box in the dump, and so we served food there.
Speaker 2:We brought like clothes and food and shoes and all kinds of stuff and yeah, so we did that for our spring break and every single one of those kids said that that trip was one of the most life-changing experiences that they ever had.
Speaker 2:And it was so interesting to like come back to the United States with these kids who were struggling with poverty here in the United States but to be able to go there and see like that level of poverty was like okay, I really don't have it that bad. And I and they came back I mean a lot of them just like cried and hugged their parents in the airport and they were like thank you so much for all you do for us, for everything like that you've done for us, and it really was like a life transforming experience. So I hope to be able to help more students have that similar experience of being able to just have your eyes open to what the real world is like for so many other people and how we can serve and love people in other places and other countries and build those bridges.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, and it's interesting too that we're teaching them how to grow food when most of the people in america now don't even know how to do that, and you'd think that the third world countries are that's what they do to get by so that they would know. But how? How crazy is that? Do you ever stop and think about that? That? All of the what did you call it? The quadratic or the? The calc, the graphing yeah, all of the what did you call it? The quadratic or the graphing? Yeah, all of the stuff that you mentioned for math. We're spending all this time teaching kids this stuff, but yet we're not teaching them how to grow food, find shelter, find clean water, how taxes actually work, like if you're a business owner. Inflation, really, inflation really works Like they never. They might've talked a little bit about interest, but they never talked about compound interest and what you're actually paying back over the life of a car loan or a home loan, or how to invest money. Is that?
Speaker 2:a little crazy to you. I mean, it is crazy. It's, you know, like when we think about it, someone out there, some politician, decided that, like, at this age, this is what this child needs to know, just because they're this old, right. And then we all just think that that's normal. And it's like who decided that quadratic equations was going to be the thing for like, a 15 year old? You know, it's like you're 15 now. Now it's quadratic equation time, like, like, who said that that would take priority over all those things that you mentioned? I'm like learning how to grow your own food would be infinitely more valuable than that. Learning how to start a business would be infinitely more valuable. Sorry, we got a big storm over here. I don't know if you could hear that. Yes, I could. Yeah, but yeah, like learning all of those practical, like learning how to cook food.
Speaker 2:No-transcript wanted to have a dog and, of course, as a single mom, I was like I do not need an extra expense in my life. Like I can barely afford to keep us afloat and we're going to not, you know, take on an additional payment every month to pay for this dog. And so she came back and she said all right, mom, if we can't have a dog, then could I start a business where I take care of other people's dogs? And she was like then other people could pay me to take care of their dog. And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know if you can hear that that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Wait, what state did you say you were in? Again, I'm in.
Speaker 2:Maryland. It is so that storm is crazy loud.
Speaker 1:The government is cloud seeding above Maryland tonight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this whole week it's like been crazy. I'm like what is going on here? And then we've had all the flash flood warnings and everything this week. I know this is totally off topic, so are we able to cut this out? No, it's not, because the government's still probably behind it. No, truly. But yeah, it's been crazy this week. Sorry about all the thunder in the background, but anyways, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, my daughter my daughter basically was like you know, if, if we can't have it be as an expense for us, then can I start a business where I take care of other people's dogs and that way other people will pay me to take care of their dogs and then it's not costing you money, we're making money. And I was like you know what? I didn't really have a good reason to say no to that. So I was like all right, let's give it a try. And so she started a business on Rover which is like an app where you can find dog sitters. And so she created her profile and I had to help her because you know, you have to be 18 to register on the thing. So technically, I started that piece of it, but we talked about starting a profile and getting photos of the clients and communicating with the clients, and actually out of her starting her business, a lot of that math piece came in, because we would talk about, ok, how much do you want to charge and how much do you want to charge per day and what kind of dogs do you want to take, and like just really being picky about the kind of clients that she wanted. And then we started asking you know, as she goes she would learn okay, I really don't want to have really big dogs because they ate our chickens. So they were like, okay, we're not going to have big dogs anymore, we're just going to do the little dogs. And so we, you know, started doing little dogs. And then she would like write on a clipboard of like questions that she wanted to ask every time we would have a new client, we do a meet and greet, and so she would again practice like writing where she'd write down her questions. She wanted to ask them and their answers.
Speaker 2:And then she really started getting the entrepreneurial mindset. She started out charging I think it was like $50 a day to take care of other people's dogs, and she had little friends that were, you know, younger than her, so she was seven at the time and her friend was five, and my daughter hated picking up the poop right, but of course, if you want to have a business and you want to take care of dogs, you have to do stuff that you don't always like to do. So she'd have to pick up the poop. And eventually her friend, who was five, was like hey, I want to help with your business. And so she said you know what? I'll pay you $5 to pick up the poop. And so whenever she would have a client, she would pay her friends $5 to pick up the poop. And she was like Mom, did you know that if I pay her $5 to clean up the poop, I'll still have $45 left over? And and even though I'm not doing the dirty work, and I was like that's entrepreneurship, like that's how it works. You pay people to do the stuff that you either don't want to do or you can't do and you keep the profits right. Like that's, that's how running a business works. So, without having to do you know again, no, buying a curriculum, carry today's entrepreneurship day. We're going to learn profit and loss and employees and all that. Like no, she just it happened in her life and she figured it out on her own and and yeah, and so now you know what, four years later, she's got like a whole book of business and like repeat clients Actually, we have another repeat client who's going to be coming next week and yeah, so she's got her little business going.
Speaker 2:And then she took the profits from that business and decided that she wanted to start a popsicle business with one of her best friends and there were no popsicles that had like.
Speaker 2:She wanted to create popsicles that were made with with raw milk and organic fruit and had no added sugar, and so, yeah, so that was what she did. So they're really, really, really yummy and yeah, and they sell popsicles at like sports events and at their homeschool group and all kinds of things. But it was really cool to see, like, how they took their profits from one business to be able to buy the materials that they needed to start this popsicle business. And my daughter's real passion is art, and so they were really excited about coming up with all the creative flavors for the different popsicle flavor combinations that they were going to do, and they created little characters, and so they drew on Procreate with all the digital logos and created characters with all these names and they printed out stickers and t-shirts and this whole thing for the popsicle business. So through all of that, it's like they're learning all these really valuable skills while they're pursuing the things that they really love and enjoy, and so, yeah, it's a really beautiful thing to see.
Speaker 1:Amazing. They are learning so much and, like you said, it's relevant to them. They're seeing the profit, the benefit of it, the relevance to their life. I mean, if that doesn't beautifully explain what unschooling is, I don't know what does, because it's just so awesome. Angela, all right, anything else? Did you want to talk a little bit about your academy? Well, you did a little bit because we said we would put the link in. But anything, you know, I want to make sure that we give that proper attention to.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Yeah, so you know anyone who's listening. If you are interested in looking for a way to support your homeschooler, well you know, I tell people all the time. You don't need to be enrolled in any special program to homeschool. Anyone can homeschool completely independently.
Speaker 2:What I will say is that PAX Academy is a great option for homeschooling, unschooling and world schooling families. It only costs $350 for the entire year and right now we actually have a family special going on. So it's $600 for the entire year and that covers all of your tuition for the year. It gives you access to hundreds of different resources that you're welcome to use and then, like I said, you have access to all these other exclusive discounts that should more than pay for the tuition. I tell people, if you're, if you're doing it right, pax Academy should more than pay for itself. And then, especially if you have a teen who is interested in going on to college, we have some really awesome partnerships with colleges and universities so they can start earning college credit beginning in sixth grade and they can start earning college and high school credit, and it's at a pretty significant discount. So, yeah, I'm really interested in helping people, and teenagers in particular, learn how they can hack their high school and their college education and save tens of thousands of dollars through exploring all the different options that are available.
Speaker 2:For us as homeschooling and world schooling families, and then also the world schooling piece is really near and dear to my heart as well, so we were excited about being able to offer international trips to our students as well, where they can travel the world and earn high school and college credit, as well as community service hours for traveling with us. We talked about the Guatemala trip. We're actually going to be going on a week-long cruise in May of next year and we're also doing a tour in Japan in 2027, guatemala in 2026. So we have a lot of really fun international trips that are coming up. So if you guys are interested in traveling the world and exploring new places, we'd love to have you join us.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. I'll put those links in the show's description and any parting advice or words of wisdom to prospective homeschooling parents, or even seasoned homeschooling parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would. I would just say enjoy every moment. Enjoy every moment. You know, as they say, the days are long but the years are short, and that is so true. You know you will never regret spending more time with your children. You will never regret it for a moment. And spending time with your children while they pursue their passions it's like the best thing ever. It's such a beautiful journey and I'm excited to support anyone who's listening.
Speaker 2:I offer free monthly Q&As as well for people who have questions or want to learn more about unschooling. I know for a lot of people, the idea of unschooling can feel very scary and intimidating, and so I love to be able to offer every month. On the last Wednesday of the month, I do the free Q&A in English, and then on the second Wednesday of the month, I do a free Q&A in Spanish. So if you have extra questions and you want to come and talk with me about unschooling I could talk about unschooling forever, so feel free to pop in on any any any month, on any of those sessions. I'd love to meet you guys and talk to you. It's via zoom, so I'll get it hopefully get a chance to see your faces and answer any questions that you guys might have about our lifestyle or this philosophy. Yeah, I'm excited for you all. It's the best thing ever and resources like this podcast are a huge, huge, huge blessing, being an encouragement and inspiration as you guys embark on this beautiful journey together.
Speaker 1:Angela, thank you so much for your time today. What inspiration and just you, beautifully laid out, like just the oh my God. Why would we send them there? Why would we waste their childhood? They only get one childhood. These are the most precious years of their life. Why would we waste it, teaching them things that they'll never need to know? That makes so much sense. And then just hearing about your daughter's experience starting her business, it's like really eye-opening. So just thank you for sharing that with us and I wish you the best in all of your endeavors. Thank you for helping out the homeschool community the way that you do.
Speaker 2:It's my pleasure, greatest honor of my life.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the homeschool how to. If you've enjoyed what you heard and you'd like to contribute to the show, please consider leaving a small tip using the link in my show's description. Or, if you'd rather, please use the link in the description to share this podcast with a friend or on your favorite homeschool group Facebook page. Any effort to help us keep the podcast going is greatly appreciated. Thank you for tuning in and for your love of the next generation.