The Bridge for Early Career Preachers "Preachercast"
The Bridge for Early Career Preachers "Preachercast"
Season 2, Episode 7: Rev. Dr. Sarah Griffith Lund
This month we sit down with Rev. Dr. Sarah Griffith Lund, who serves as the Senior Minister at First Congregational UCC in Indianapolis, IN. Sarah is active in mental health and disability ministries and you can find her books on mental health here.
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Welcome everyone to the Bridge for Early Career Preachers Preacher Cast. The mission of the Bridge for Early Career Preachers is to provide resources, continuing education, and a supportive community for those who are moving from aspiring to active preaching ministries. The Preacher Cast is intended to profile preachers, to hear their stories, and to reflect with them on their own preaching. We want to engage with preachers as they consider their identity, as they contemplate their own experiences, and as we often, maybe always say, if you're here for tips and tricks, if you're here for sermon outlines, if you're here for us to pass down preaching wisdom and how to from on high, you are in the wrong place. My name is Rich Voelz. I serve as Associate Professor of Preaching Worship at Union Presbyterian Seminary based in Richmond, Virginia. I'm also the Director of the Bridge for Early Career Preachers, and I'm here with my co host, Rev. Mandy England Cole. Mandy, say hello, introduce yourself.
Mandy England Cole:Hi, I am happy to be co hosting. I'm the Program Associate for the Bridge and a preaching coach, minister type person freelancing all kinds of ministry type gigs to cobble together a career these days. It's good to be here with you.
Rich Voelz:It's always fun to hear you find new ways to describe all the many things that you do. We are really excited to have with us today. The Reverend Dr. Sarah Griffith Lund. Sarah is an ordained minister with standing in the United Church of Christ and the Christian Church disciples of Christ. And she currently serves as senior pastor of First Congregational United Church of Christ of Indianapolis. She has also served as pastor to churches in Brooklyn, New York, Minneapolis, Minnesota, and New Smyrna Beach, Florida, as a conference minister in Florida and on staff at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis. She is the author of the highly acclaimed memoir, Blessed Are the Crazy, Breaking the Silence About Mental Illness, Family and Church, which was published with Chalice Press in 2014. Blessed Union, Breaking the Silence About Mental Health and Marriage, which was published with Chalice in 2021. Blessed Youth, Breaking the Silence About Mental Health with Children and Teens, and the best selling Blessed Youth Survival Guide, both of those published with Chalice Press in 2022. Sarah is also the Minister of Disabilities and Mental Health Justice on the National Staff of the UCC and serves on the Board of Directors for Mental Health America. Additionally, she's working with the U. S. Department of Health and Human Services for Faith and Mental Health Initiatives. And she is a founding member of the brand new Disability Ministry Network. She's a graduate of Trinity University, Princeton Theological Seminary, Rutgers University, and McCormick Theological Seminary. Sarah, welcome. We are so excited to have you on with us today. Welcome to the PreacherCast.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Thank you. It's great to be here.
Rich Voelz:So let's dive right in. Sarah, tell us about how long you've been preaching and a little bit about your current preaching context.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Well, I think I've been preaching for a long time. Um, ever since I was a kid, my mom always said, you got to tell the stories about our family. Nobody would believe them. So I started telling those stories in written form and really fell in love with storytelling and dabbled in journalism in high school and. College and even, um, a DJ for the college radio station and got called into ministry in college. And so going, uh, straight to seminary from college and, uh, taking amazing courses and preaching. I was at Princeton has a fabulous communications and preaching department and was, um, free and encouraged to experiment. And so that was just incredible to be in that. Space and seminary, uh, you know, a safe space, but also a space where you were challenged to really go beyond your own comfort zone. And so, um, I have been serving as a local church and the times where I didn't serve as a local church pastor, I really missed preaching. Um, the week to week. And so, as I think about my call and my, my preaching journey, um, that honor and privilege and responsibility, uh, to have freedom in the pulpit is just so incredible and it really, um, resonates deeply and profoundly, profoundly with my sense of call.
Rich Voelz:And so tell us, you mentioned the word freedom. Tell us a little bit about the current congregation where you're serving now. How does that freedom manifest and what's that context like as it intersects with your preaching?
Sarah Griffith Lund:I was four years at Christian Theological Seminary and administration as a vice president and really missed being in the, in the local church, you know, just there, you know, organizing and, and ministering alongside people. And so when I, was called to the first congregational. It was to be the very first woman senior pastor in the history of the church. It was founded in 1857. And so I felt, um, like they were ready, you know, to have a woman leader in the church. They'd had a lot of women lay leaders and women associate pastors, but not a senior pastor. And so, um, feeling, you know, That part of my preaching call was to preach from not in, not ignoring my context as a woman, but preaching from my context as a woman. And the most valuable part of my call agreement is that last paragraph where it talks about honoring the freedom of the pulpit. And when I interviewed with the search committee, I was sharing that I'm really looking for a congregation that I can love as a pastor. And they can love me as a pastor and preacher. And so it's been this, uh, tension, you know, pushing at some points, the boundaries of that covenant, because sometimes a word that I feel called to preach is a challenging word to myself and to the congregation. And, um, as I've been there six years and continue to serve there, um, we're having deeper conversations about those tension points. Which I, I think at first would have scared me as a new preacher, but now having preached for over 20 years, I realized those Conversations of tension are deeply faithful, and there are ways to navigate through them.
Mandy England Cole:I'm, I'm curious if you would say more about the shift from understanding a, a comp, you know, some sort of compelling to tell stories, to be the storyteller, to the shift of being the preacher. And, and when that happened, when you first knew that you wanted to step into that preacher role and position.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Well, I believe that it was other people who saw that preacher in me before I saw it in myself. I saw myself as a storyteller, um, you know, in print journalism or blogging. You know, I had a certain level of comfort in being somewhat anonymous. And still today, I am very challenged to be embodied as a preacher. I want to shrink. I want to be small. I want to be quiet. I want to be brief. And so each time I'm in the pulpit, whatever that pulpit is, I, it takes all that I have within me to stand tall, to speak loud, to speak long enough. And I don't know what that is, but there's something that just is so, vulnerable in being in that space that I, I really have, um, lots of rituals and things I do to prepare myself to preach because I don't think it's something I naturally. Would choose to do
Mandy England Cole:That's, that's beautiful. That others were noticing and, and naming it for you.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Yes. In college I was part of a really great, um, university chapel community, and the chaplain saw that gift in me and would give me opportunities to lead worship services in chapel. You know, started by reading scripture, you know, read the scripture for the. Christmas Eve vespers,
Mandy England Cole:that's really a powerful word to rich with our early career preachers to be, seeing that there's still an element of, giving, giving her Sarah, giving herself permission to claim the space and become. Bigger and more present, more fully visible is, I think, maybe a reassuring word to some, some of our early
Rich Voelz:years. Absolutely. Uh, what I immediately thought of was like, well, this is not uncommon. Like you're not, you're not alone, Sarah. Um, I don't know that we
Sarah Griffith Lund:talk about it enough though.
Rich Voelz:Yeah. And I wonder, I mean, I've got some hunches about why I think that is. Why do you think that is?
Sarah Griffith Lund:It's embarrassing. Like, like, I'm old now. I'm 47. Shouldn't I have it all together? Shouldn't I know by now how to preach and what to do? No, I don't. I'm still figuring it out.
Rich Voelz:And I think a lot of us, I mean, are socialized into thinking that we have very little to offer. So like, I want to connect that back to also like, Claiming your, your authority as a, as a woman, as the first female, uh, pastor of, of that congregation and first leader of that congregation. Like, I think, I think there's a lot to that as well. Like that many of us are socialized to is whether it's gender or other kinds of social location dynamics. We're, we're socialized into thinking like, well, we don't have that much to offer and maybe we should be a little bit more short winded and not take up so much space. We're, we're already beginning down this path and you've offered this, uh, this image of the storyteller. But, you know, sometimes when we talk about our preacher's unique preaching gifts and identity, we talk about voice and, um, people are probably sick of me saying it now, but I always talk about voice with a capital V when I'm talking about it in relation to preaching. So how would you describe your voice? And maybe, maybe you can talk a little bit more about that move from off the page or off the screen and into the, the, uh, to the more public speaking dimension of that. In other words, you know, what, what makes you the preacher that you are?
Sarah Griffith Lund:So I, my conversation with God goes something like this. I have all of this data, all these statistics, all of these reports and research I've done. I'm just gonna stick to that, the exegesis. And then I, I say, okay, God, in my heart, there's so much deep wisdom that you've given me in my heart. Um, I'm, I'm gonna go with that. And so it's always a struggle between head and heart, head and heart. And I feel so much more secure and safe in my head. But God always says, go deep into the heart. And so I, I pray and hope that my preaching integrates the head art. I strive to be a compassionate leader who is sensitive, and, and deeply connected to the power in community and speaks a word to support connection to community and to God. And the various types of pulpits I've had have really allowed me to sink into that heart space and get off the page. I had a great mentor when I was doing judicatory regional ministry, and she said, you know, you're, you're maybe going to this church 1 time. And this is your chance to really connect with the congregation. So she said, if you can preach without a manuscript, I highly recommend it because it will allow you to be so much more present and engaged with the congregation. So, during those 2 years. As a regional minister, I was able to get more comfortable preaching without a manuscript. And then it helped because I found myself during the pandemic, when we are navigating how to lead worship live streaming on Facebook or prerecorded sermons, I was called into that heart space and I prepared for the sermon, but I preached right into the camera, uh, hoping that this was a word. That really spoke to encourage the heart of the congregation. And it was for me, a really challenging time as a preacher, but so rewarding.
Rich Voelz:I'm struck, um, by all of what you said. but this connection between head and heart, uh, seems. Um, seems so applicable, especially for the folks who are part of our network of early career, preachers who maybe have just finished their theological education and where the, the head stuff is so valued and, and The temptation is for that to be disproportionate in preaching to the heart stuff. Was there something that helped you kind of break through, to make that, that connection? I mean, was it, was it that work with the regional ministry, in Florida? Was it something else that kind of helped you break through that space?
Sarah Griffith Lund:My first clue was during a field education internship with the church of Scotland. So I was in seminary and I was studying, um, abroad in Scotland. At a day center. So day center for folks who are unhoused in Glasgow, and that was my 1st sermon ever in this day center, holding chairs in this cafeteria. There were 12 folding chairs. Three people sitting there. I had my 12 page typed manuscript and I was giving them my sermon. A lot of exegesis poured into that baby. So about at the third page, one person got up and walked away. So there are two people left and by the end of this 12 page typewritten sermon, both guys there were asleep.
Rich Voelz:Oh my gosh.
Sarah Griffith Lund:So that was my first clue. Maybe this wasn't the way that God designed you. So
Rich Voelz:you learned the hard way is what you're saying.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Yeah. They were great teachers. Nobody booed or threw anything at me. So they were very gracious.
Rich Voelz:My gosh. Well, this, this may be, that may be the answer to our next question, but, but what's a lesson you've learned over the course of your preaching career, something you'd want to go back and, and whisper into the ear of a younger version of yourself.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Well, I'll quote Anna Carter Florence, who spoke to me when I was a newly ordained young woman, clergy woman, it was a conference for young clergy women. And she said, you all have a God story to tell. a God story that the world needs to hear, that the church needs to hear, and you've been silenced. Women, young women especially, have been silenced for too long. And so she said to each one of us, what is your God story that the church and the world need to hear? And the answer to her question was my first book, Blessed Are the Crazy, Breaking the Silence About Mental Illness, Family, and Church. So you could say that is a sermon, that book is, is my witness, my testimony to the God's story about chronic and serious disabling mental health symptoms and disorders.
Rich Voelz:Wow. Thank you. I would say that, that
Sarah Griffith Lund:would be the question is, you know, for listeners, um, what is your God story that is in your heart that the church needs to hear?
Rich Voelz:That's amazing. That's a
Mandy England Cole:powerful question. I'm wondering, Sarah, as, as you're growing in this season of your preaching, what are the things that you're working on right now?
Sarah Griffith Lund:Well, I'm working on a lot of things. And so,, one thing is preaching in the public sphere. And so I'm in Indiana and I'm And my congregation is part of the UCC. So we see it within our call to have a prophetic witness.
Mandy England Cole:And
Sarah Griffith Lund:so in lots of areas, LGBTQ rights, trans rights, reproductive rights. And so I have, the opportunity to be a leader in the civic. Space and society as a faith leader. So I have been invited to speak at the state house. I presented on behalf of faith communities about the role of faith and reproductive rights. And so I had a few minutes. Where I got to preach, I got to testify of, of what our faith, my faith teaches about reproductive rights. And so that was, that was profound. Um, and I didn't have a 12 page typed manuscript, you know, I was able, and I very much, the moment called for me to be fully physically present in my body. You know, sharing this testimony about a thousand people, this atrium with four stories, all filled with people. And I think for me, that's been one of the most impactful preaching moments. So far in my life.
Mandy England Cole:I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more, articulate some of the, the nuance or the difference that you're noticing the shift and stepping into that public preaching role
Sarah Griffith Lund:I think it's perhaps going deeper into the answer to Anna Carter Florence's question, right? So what is the God story that is yours to tell? And it's this encouragement, permission. Um, to, to say, yeah, you know, you, God is showing up and has shown up in your life since the day you were born. And when I learn more about trauma informed ministry, trauma informed preaching and brain science, there is a lot to storytelling and reviewing our life and points of trauma, especially and asking us as people of faith, where was God showing up? Even then. Where was God? And so the preaching for the preacher herself and for the congregation, we can model for folks how to view their life through this lens of the divine presence and help bring healing to our communities that way.
Mandy England Cole:Yeah, it strikes me that in doing so you're, you're really taking up more space, right? You're stepping up and having to speak louder to be heard by the bigger, bigger crowd, the public.
Sarah Griffith Lund:And I had another opportunity again in the public sphere, um, with faith in Indiana. We were advocating last year for full funding for mental health, bringing in the nine eight eight program, but we needed to raise like 2 million. And so we had a, about an 800 person faith rally. And I was giving again, the testimony of why this matters is people of faith. And I would say 80 percent of the group were from a different faith. Faith tradition than mine, mostly black Baptist. and so for me to show up in that space and be open to the Holy Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit among the people to guide my sharing, I did have a manuscript, but I also was able to open my heart to the spirit that was very present there. And so the sermon became so much more. Then what I had prepared on the paper.
Rich Voelz:And I, can I extend Mandy's question as well? So she's, she was asking you know, how is it that you're preaching and within the walls of the congregation has, Has shifted your public proclamation, and I would ask, how then is that public proclamation now shifting
Mandy England Cole:and
Rich Voelz:making its way back into the congregation? Like, can you name any dynamics for us in terms of your own understanding of the work that you do in the, in the congregational pulpit as a result of what you're doing outside?
Sarah Griffith Lund:I think that's a great point to focus on. That's where I probably have more growth. There's something about being outside of the physical church building that I feel more liberated to be myself and to show up authentically, engaging in whatever context it is. And when you put me back in my church pulpit, there's something maybe, I don't know, something, there's something to that, that maybe I feel like I have to conform. There's different expectations. It's a little more confining. And so maybe that's even why I found Facebook preaching or pandemic preaching a little more liberating because I was in my home. I was in my living room where I was outside. I was in the garden.
Rich Voelz:I think it goes back to the dynamic you named at the beginning, right? Uh, you know, in terms of what's in your, uh, In your contract, um, your letter of agreement with the congregation, but also, you know, that tension that you feel, I think that seems to me like, uh, absolutely part of it. Thanks for reflected with us on that. I, I think as more and more clergy are entering into those kinds of, of rhythms of inside and outside the church, and then back again, I think we're all going to have to be wrestling with, with what that means, um, for, for both our public and our congregational. All right, let's take a, let's take a turn. Uh, You've been in ministry for a while now. Tell us about your strangest or funniest preaching moment. Every preacher has at least one of these kinds of stories.
Sarah Griffith Lund:You know, what comes up for me is, is back to being embodied. And, um, I've shared this with other folks and I'm comfortable sharing it now. Um, part of my body had experiences of menstruation that was, um, really not being, not being attended to. And so I think this comes from patriarchy and misogyny and having women preachers who are trying to conform to a male model of preaching and not being in our bodies. So many of us have, uh, disassociated. So whatever's happening in our bodies, we are, uh, not, not connected. And I, and so I'm not the only one, but I am one of many women who have entered the pulpit and preached while their bodies are hemorrhaging. Like, Serious, serious issues going on, but we don't feel like we are permitted or allowed to acknowledge this aspect of our human experience. And so we suffer through it. We push through it. We plow ahead, we get the job done, and then we go and quietly, silently take care of ourselves, hoping we haven't embarrassed ourselves or done anything, um, that made, made things worse.
Rich Voelz:Thank you for the courage, um, and the vulnerability of sharing, um, sharing that with us, these, uh, now the past couple of podcasts, we've had people who have taken more serious approaches to this, this question, rather than a more humorous one. I'm just. floored, um, and grateful for, for you sharing that. Thank you.
Mandy England Cole:And that too is something we don't talk about. You're, you're kind of naming for us, all kinds of areas of the preaching experience and preaching identity that we do not name. Um, and again, you're not alone in that. It's, it's far too common and to name it, there's, there seems like a significant power in that. I'm grateful for that.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Thank you. There's power because, um, it's also as a culture that needs to change. So I also see it related to physical health, mental health. There are times where we are getting in the pulpit where our mental health, it is not a good idea for ourselves or the congregation for us to be preaching. And I, and I wish that we had more, um, encouragement, role modeling, permission, more means of having. Um, and I've worked with some clergy in my national work having a plan. So if it's, you know, this night before, and you know, you're having a depressive episode, a manic episode, you know, onset of a disability, lupus or MS in your body or your mind, you're just not able to get in the pulpit or, or be at church that you have a plan. I, and the church knows that, yep, this is going to be a plan B. We, we, we care for our pastor preacher that we're going to have this plan in place. And, and so that no one will have to suffer unnecessarily. And we can honor the body and mind of the preacher by creating these types of accommodations and supports. I should not have been in the pulpit hemorrhaging. You know, and so what I wish for our churches is that we could honor the humanity of our preachers and have within our cultures these conversations and these backup plans and be able to call upon them as we need to.
Rich Voelz:And there's a theology of shared ministry there. I think that needs to be articulated alongside thinking about, you know, what does it mean to be human, um, and to be responsible and to care for, for one another. I think there's a theology of like, you know, uh, at least in protestant spaces. The, the enormity of the preaching moment is we grant, you know, congregationally we grant so much power to that and we limit that space to others. So what, what would it be like to open up and to share space, um, more regularly, more widely with folks so that, so that's not just, um, you know, a tremendous interruption to the, the ministry of proclamation when Sarah or whoever can't step into the pulpit that day. Um, that there's more to it. Yeah. So thank you.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Um, my, my condition landed me in the E. R. So I was in the E. R. Um, I think Wednesday or Thursday night. And, um, I kind of waited till the next day to text my leaders and say, you know, I, I don't think I'm going to be in any shape to preach on Sunday. This is what's going on. But it was hard. It was hard for me to make that call. I didn't want to disappoint people. You know, I wanted to be strong enough to power through and do it. Um, and my church, of course, was very gracious, wanted to do whatever they could to support me. and they took care of it. And then another example is I, I got food poisoning and I was really sick the night before Sunday morning. And so, I just hoped I would be better Sunday morning and I wasn't. And so I texted my leaders when I was like, I am in no shape. to preach at all. And they said, well, could you make a, uh, A video or kind of live stream. And I said, no, you do not want me on video right now. This is not a good situation. So we did have a hymn sing and I suggested, you know, why don't we do this? Um, and so that, that worked out just fine.
Mandy England Cole:Yeah. I love this notion of a plan B. Um, that's going to stick with me. We we've talked about so many things that you have learned along your journey. But I'm wondering if there's something that. Um, you weren't taught necessarily in your theological training, but that you've adopted into your preaching practice. That's become vital to it. Is there something in the rhythm of your preparation or in that embodiment and delivery piece that you feel, or, or even post sermon that you feel is just vital to your preaching?
Sarah Griffith Lund:Two things. Um, one is related to that, you know, what is your unique God story that you, are being called to share. And so with, with me and my journey, it's been about mental health and helping the church break the silence and the stigma and shame around that. And so I have grown as a preacher, you know, integrating my authentic storytelling about mental health in the preaching moment. And I was not taught, um, how to do that. Growing up, I did not have role models of how to do that. So that's been experimentation and thankfully, it's a kind of a collective time. I see a lot of preachers experimenting with that. And we've had, um, some good conversations around, you know, what are the boundaries with that? How do we share authentically and vulnerably, but not in a way that traumatizes or harms or dishonors people? And so that's a space I continue to feel called into. And the other part I didn't learn, but stumbled into it was the spirituality of preaching. And what does it look like to sustain oneself spiritually, to have the spiritual depth and groundedness? And so, a few years ago out of my Bethany Fellows experience, which is, you know, for new clergy to help develop spiritual disciplines, a lot of focus on prayer and silence. I realized that I wanted to create a spiritual discipline around prayer. as a preacher. And so once a month I have a day of prayer. I go to a urban retreat center. All Creek Abbey is an amazing place and I have my day of prayer and I remember talking to my pastor congregation committee and I was like, do you think it would be okay if I used a work day to pray and they just looked at me and they're like, Of course, pastor, we need you to pray. And I was like, Oh, but I think sometimes as clergy, we don't realize, you know, that we are called to pray for folks in our congregations, our community, the world, ourselves. And so I wish more preachers would do that. And that's what they tell me at the Abbey, you know, it says Indianapolis, there's a lot of preachers here. They said, we wish more pastors and preachers would take the time for themselves and God to really connect deeply, you know, on a regular basis. Because I think that helps me preach authentically from a spiritual relationship with God, because that's what a lot of the biblical stories are about, people's spiritual relationships to God and their community. And if I don't have. a spiritual relationship with God. What am I even preaching about?
Rich Voelz:Again, and we often have sort of themes that begin to run through, our, our conversations with folks. But here again, is that head and heart piece that you named earlier, but also the sense of, Of claiming what you need, whether it's space or, you know, just, values and practices around your body or values and practices around your spiritual life. Here's another place where you're sort of claiming, this is who I am. This is what I need. This is what helps me do the ministry I am called to do. So just, I love kind of tracking some of the ways that the themes, uh, run through some of these kinds of, conversations. So again, thank you for that. I think that's really healthy. And as a seminary professor or something, we continue to do not very well. Uh, I'll just, I'll just name our own sin in that regard is, is doing a great job of thinking about the spirituality of preaching. Um, that
Sarah Griffith Lund:should be like a whole course. Wouldn't that be amazing? Bring in the mystics, the Christian mystics. We also don't pay enough attention to that rich history. I think it could help us get through this post pandemic slump. I mean, we're really hurting a lot of us and I think we could draw on our roots. There's so much beautiful spirituality in the Christian mystics that we can. Oh, yeah.
Rich Voelz:Yeah. 100 percent agree.
Mandy England Cole:I can see wheels turning on Rich's screen right now.
Sarah Griffith Lund:And Mary Magdalene. I mean, that's, that's, wow. Talk about an opportunity to, to look at her as a, as a mystic that we can draw upon. Her for today, preaching for today. I think we all need, we need more Mary Magdalene.
Rich Voelz:Yeah. Yeah. Sarah, we're, we're approaching the end of our time, uh, which has been absolutely time well spent. but the bridge serves preachers who are early in their career. What word would you like to leave for them as our time begins to draw to a close?
Sarah Griffith Lund:You are not intended to be out there on your own. Alone in the wilderness. You are intended to be in beloved community. Surrounded by people who love you and care about you as a whole person and to nurture your relationships with people that give you life, people who love you and know that the word of God can come out of those experiences in your life and that you are created in God's image. And so whatever your identity is or your discovery more about who you are as a child of God that that too can be part of your preaching identity that we can show up in our pulpits as our whole authentic selves and that we do not need to be ashamed or embarrassed about anything. About who we are created in God's image.
Rich Voelz:I'll take that. I'll take it. Oh my goodness. Sarah, thank you so much for your time, for the wisdom that you've shared, for the vulnerability, and the experiences that you've passed on to us, we really appreciate you spending some time with us today.
Sarah Griffith Lund:Thank you. I really enjoyed it.
Rich Voelz:You can find the Bridge for Early Career Preachers at upsem. edu slash bridge. You can also find us on social media through Instagram and Facebook. We would love to connect with you there. The bridge is funded by a generous grant from the Lilly Endowment's Compelling Preaching Initiative. You can find out more about that initiative and other grant programs at compellingpreaching. org. We will be back next month with another episode. And so until next time, we encourage you to preach faithfully, to preach boldly, to know that we are here for you in these early years of preaching. And of course, to remind you that you are not intended to be out there on your own. We are here walking the way with you and hope you will find others who are doing the same thing. Take care until next time.