The Bridge for Early Career Preachers "Preachercast"
The Bridge for Early Career Preachers "Preachercast"
Season 2, Episode 8: Rev. Dr. Prince Raney Rivers
This month we spend some time with Rev. Dr. Prince Raney Rivers, who serves as Senior Pastor of Union Baptist Church in Durham, NC. As we note in the show, Rev. Dr. Rivers is the editor of the Alban Weekly Newsletter. You can find old editions and sign up to receive the newsletter here.
In this episode we'll reference Howard Thurman's "The Sound of the Genuine." Read/listen to that address here.
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Welcome everyone to the Bridge for Early Career Preachers Preacher Cast. The mission of the Bridge for Early Career Preachers is to provide resources, continuing education, and a supportive community for those who are moving from aspiring to active preaching ministries. I'm one of your co hosts, Rich Voelz. I serve as associate professor of preaching and worship at Union Presbyterian Seminary based in Richmond, Virginia. And I am here with my steadfast co hosts, Reverend Mandy England Cole. Mandy, say hi and introduce yourself.
Mandy England Cole:Hi, everyone. I'm Mandy. I have served congregations in North Carolina and in Virginia, but currently I'm helping as the program associate for the bridge for early career preachers. And as a preaching coach, cobbling together a little life of I don't know, jazz kind of ministry, a little of this and a little of that these days, gumbo ministry, gumbo. That's right. Gumbo. There you go. We're really excited to have with us today the Reverend Dr. Prince Rainey Rivers, who serves as the senior pastor of the Union Baptist Church in Durham, North Carolina. Union is a socially engaged, multi generational congregation of more than 5, 000 members. Dr. Rivers is a consulting faculty member at Duke Divinity School. and serves as the editor of Albin Weekly, a e resource in which he writes on a wide range of leadership topics for an audience of 14, 000 subscribers, so some of you may already know Dr. Rivers. He also serves as the host of Albin's Podcast new podcast leading and thriving in the church. So we'll link to that in our show notes. Make sure you go over and listen. Dr. Rivers currently serves as the second vice president of the general Baptist state convention of North Carolina incorporated. And as a member of the board of trustees at Wake Forest university. Alongside pastoral ministry, Reverend Dr. Rivers has an interest in community economic development and affordable housing. He received his PhD in leadership studies from North Carolina, A& T state university. He's a proud alum of Duke divinity school, which just to let you know, you're sitting on a podcast with two rabid NC state fans. And so we'll just let that slide. And and a graduate of more houses. College. So those of you familiar with Morehouse men and the Morehouse tradition of preaching you'll be glad to know that that Dr. Rivers is in that lineage. When it's time to shift from work to play Prince's interest include indoor cycling, action movies, conversations with family and friends, traveling, reading, baking cookies. I want to hang out with you and doing just about anything at the beach. Prince, we're really glad that you've taken the time to join us today. Welcome to the preacher cast.
Prince Rivers:Rich and Mandy, it's a joy to be here with my NC State cousins. It's just I can't wait to get started in this conversation. All right. So now that we've established a friendly framework, let's dive in. Prince, if you could just start us off by telling us about how long you've been preaching and about your current preaching context. Sure. Rich, you know, I actually just celebrated 25 years in pastoral ministry. was ordained and started pastoring in the same year 1999 and have been pastoring continuously since then. So a little bit of preaching before that but preaching mostly every Sunday for the last 25 years. I currently serve a congregation in Durham, North Carolina, Union Baptist Church. We are about 127 years old multi generational fairly traditional in some ways but we try to push the, the limits of traditionalism in, in, in other ways. I've been here seven years, but this was the church I served as an intern when I was in seminary at Duke Divinity School. So I returned to the church about 17 years later and followed a pastor who was here about 26 years. It's been a joy to see some of the children who were listening to my children's sermons in seminary now have children of their own and we are doing ministry together. So never would have expected it, didn't see it coming, but this is the providence of God and here's where I am today. 25 years. Congratulations on that. Thanks Can, can you take us back to the very beginning and, and tell us a little bit about when you first knew that you wanted to preach when that desire was first? Yeah. So there's a little bit of backstory there. My undergraduate degree was in psychology and I was headed to graduate PhD in clinical psychology, knew what I wanted to do. You know, and everything mapped out. And this is pre internet at least for most normal people. Anyway the summer after I graduated from college, I just had this sense that, that going to graduate school at that time was not what I was supposed to do. I didn't really have, while I was raised in the church, I just didn't have the language to think about it clearly from a theological standpoint. But I had this deep knowing that it wasn't what I was supposed to do. I didn't know what the, what the forward path was. And I hung out with some friends. We were doing some business and entrepreneurial things for a couple of years. And around that second year after I graduated as people were beginning to worry about what was going on with my life I, I met a pastor. And he was curious about what these college graduates were doing in business together, and I was curious about him. Started going to his Bible studies, and then to his Sunday morning services, and he sort of latched onto me, and I started driving him to various preaching engagements that he had, and I just watching him for this period of time. I had another deep sense of knowing, ah, this is what I'm supposed to do with my life. He was, he was one of the most intellectually rigorous and spiritually grounded people that I've met. He has since gone home to be with the Lord in about 2016, but he left a profound impact on me and my ministry and, and maybe we'll talk about that some, but that was So yeah, about two years after graduation, my best friend from college. had accepted his call to ministry during our freshman year. So I met him our freshman year, he accepted his call to ministry our freshman year. Well, he had gone to Duke Divinity School right after college. Duke had been one of my top choices for graduate school in psychology. I was going to another place, but I felt drawn back to this area and I applied to Duke Divinity School and ended up coming here. And it was, So all of those things really work together to help me to know, although I would say I entered seminary with a bit on the fence, I was like, okay, I will do my MDiv, get a PhD and I'll teach. But the more field education I did, the more experiences I had in the local church and more opportunities I had to preach and really that external call to the more people affirmed that preaching gift in me. The more I settled into the pastoral and preaching identity, that's really helpful to hear about the sort of network of things that drew you in to the call to preach the call to ministry you know a foundation of discernment, but mentors but also the educational system that, that kind of pushed you toward required you to do field work, but also that provided a supportive environment for that. So I'd love to hear about just the variety of factors that pull people and affirm their call into ministry. So thanks for sharing that. I think that's really important for, for many of us to, to hear and to be reminded of, and to be thankful for even, even if that wasn't our first plan, yeah, I still talk about it, you know, to field education students that I mentor because I probably even the first five years of ministry was, I was, I felt prepared, you know, as much as one can, you know, five years in but I still wasn't quite sure that's where I was going to stay. Yeah. And was invited to some gathering of clergy and Eugene Peterson was the, the person that we focused around and, you know, he was there with us and we were, we had read his book, Pastor, and listening to him for five days, I came away saying, I'm, this is it. I'm in, you know, this is, this is my life. I will do other things as God calls me to do it, but this is the core of, of my calling. So again, yet one more voice. That was about the 70 year point that settled in. Really completely and fully to the to that identity. So yeah, I was gonna ask when that that sort of switch flipped for you So I'm glad to hear you to share that and that's a it's been a long time since I've read Eugene Peterson's book. It's one worth going back to in reading again, so You're leading us in this way. So Sometimes when we talk about our preachers unique preaching and gifts and identity we use the term voice. And in fact, I just heard from somebody this week who, who let me know that this was a helpful metaphor for them and felt like they were coming into their voice. So how would you describe your voice, Prince? What, what makes you the preacher that you and only you are? I love the question. I love the question. And I'll, and I'll couch this in two ideas. One comes from Parker Palmer, who's written several books and done a lot of things. Book I want to make reference to is The Courage to Teach. And he started out talking and working with educators around vocation and one of the things he says is that we teach who we are. When that teacher stands up in front of the classroom, their insecurities, their confidence, their prejudices, their biases, that's what they project to the classroom. So we teach who we are. And I have in various leadership settings. Said we lead who we are, you know but I do think this is a way for us thinking about voice that it is a degree of authenticity, a degree of, of clarity around our gifts, our call our, our background, our abilities, our weaknesses things we don't do as well. And I'm very blessed to have a mother who really tried to plant seeds for self awareness and self knowledge over the course of my life. So I think I entered ministry with a sense of, this is the journey that I should be on. Who am I? And get to know yourself quickly. In addition to that, my childhood pastor, who moved away from our childhood church when I was about 15, but had a pretty profound impact on me, introduced me to Howard Thurman. And I went to see him. Right before I started seminary to announce to my, you know one of my dad's close friends and spiritual mentor that I was going into ministry. And he remembered me as the, as the kid who sat on the back row of church every Sunday as all the youth and the youth group did at our church. And I asked him, what advice do you have for me going into seminary? And I expected this dissertation of all kinds of wisdom he'd accumulated over the years. And he said, very simply. Be true to yourself. Now, in order to be true to yourself, you have to know who you are. Right? So all of these things are, are, are now accumulating in my life about understanding who you are. Howard Thurman talks about the sound of the genuine. You don't know the sound of the genuine, you know, everything's lost. So when I think about my voice early on in ministry, people would say to me, Oh, that was great teaching. Well, in the African American church tradition, You know, you kind of want people to say you preached. And I didn't know what they meant, but I just kept doing the thing that I've prepared all week to do and just stand up there. And it was years, I mean, seven, 10 years where I realized my presentation of the gospel. Can be, you know, a bit didactic. So some of it has to do with, I think, this style in which you, you, you deliver the message. Some of it has to do with the person that shows up and, and how you perceive the world. So I think my voice is a voice of liberation. It's a voice of hope. It's a voice. of good news and a voice of reconciliation. I think those kinds of, of those themes show up in, in my preaching and in my way of reading scripture. And over the years, I've gotten comfortable, even more comfortable with showing up as that teaching preacher, as that person who really tries to not just Deal with the prophetic and not just deal with the pastoral to see both in the text and and follow where they lead So yeah, I mean, I think some of those some of these are just ways that I think about my voice and You it's sometimes hard to really know your own voice until people tell you You know, they've they've heard you week after week And they will say things to you. And I think if we listen to what people are saying we will get a sense of, of our own voice and to lean into that is, is a beautiful thing, you know, to bring you joy. I love that. I was thinking about as you were unfolding all of that, I was also thinking about the old quote from Phillips Brooks, who talks about preaching as truth through personality. And I think that matches up a lot. And I was really glad to hear you name Thurman as well. Of course, we'll link to the sound of the genuine, because if you haven't read or heard that, it's just, it's required. listening or reading. I'm also thinking about, we do a little bit of homework before we have our guests on. And I listened to one of the most recent sermons that, that you preached where you are leading the congregation and thinking through practices of discernment. And you talk about St. Ignatius and my ears really perked up when you started talking about the teachings aspect of yourself. And I'm like, Oh, that's exactly what you were doing with St. Ignatius and teaching your congregation about this practices of spiritual discernment. So affirming that I see and hear that. Well, it's funny because I thought a lot about, okay, do you really want to go here? You're asking people to follow you a long way, you know, for someone who has never even heard of him to now not only believe that he was a real person, but also understand his way of, of discerning. And a lot of people wanted to know more about him and about that after the message. And I think that has come from trusting who I am to just be that and to, but also know the congregation well enough to figure out how to say things in a way that will be helpful to that particular congregation. That's really important, I think, for all of us to hear. And what I hear you saying is lean into your strengths. Lean into what makes you, you but also know that there are a variety of listeners out there and that we need to say things within our own strengths in ways that people can hear as best as we can. Yeah. And it, it takes a minute. I mean, as I said, I've been here seven years, it takes a minute and you know, three of those were COVID. So I was just hanging on by thread. It takes a minute. But it is worth the effort to really understand who the people are in your church sitting one on one with people no matter how small, no matter how large the church is. What are the pain points? What are the issues? What is the level of spiritual maturity of the congregation in general? What kinds of things have people read? What kind of questions are they asking? So that you can speak to those things. In, in the most constructive and helpful way possible during, you know, when you're preaching and not just recite the same stuff, you know, 52 weeks a year or however many weeks one preaches. That, that congregational exegesis is just as important as the biblical exegesis. So true. What's a lesson you've learned in your preaching career, something that you would want to go back and whisper to an earlier version of yourself? Read the Bible. You cannot read it enough. You cannot read it enough. If you don't understand the Meta narrative in the text. It's going to be very hard for you to think about where you're going over weeks and months. You know, I think whether you use the lectionary or not it's just very important to know the story and to do both rigorous study and rigorous prayer. You, you cannot get enough of. of of those two together. And that's, you know, this mentor that I first had early on as one of the things he, he told me, stay on your knees and in the book, very simple, but, but it's easy to remember, easy to carry with me over these 25 years, stay on your knees and in the book. So I, I, I think, you know, I think that is we can read a lot of books about preaching and that's, we should, and we need to spend a fair amount of time in the text. And, and I think one of the lessons that I have applied more. To my life. The longer I've done this is to make that tie, like. The time will not just appear on your calendar. Last week I was a couple of days at a retreat center, and I announced to the church, a, I'm going to be, you know, this is, I started doing this more intentionally the last couple of years. And the people were very appreciative to know that the pastor was taking his own spirituality seriously, that the sermons did not just magically pop out of air, that there is listening to God and and, and so I would have done a lot more of that early on. Because the work is, is exhausting as other work is, but the source of our, of our strength requires us. To really refuel and replenish in particular and intentional ways. That's really helpful. I, I love how this lesson, this word of wisdom from, from an elder in this became a practice for you and a practice that continues to unfold and deepen and be meaningful. That seems like it has this great synergy with your, your overall posture in ministry of, of you've kind of, Let this calling unfold. And that's beautiful. It's beautiful. I'm wondering if there's something that you're currently working on, what the growing edge is, as we fundamentally believe that every preacher should be growing throughout their throughout their lives. What's something you're currently working on now? I think, you know, it's funny. I want to learn to. Because there's always a temptation not to do it, but I, so I'm still learning to consistently show up just as the me that I am as a, as a preacher and to really dig deeper. So one of the things I would say about my preaching early on is, you know, I cover a lot of ground in a single sermon and thinking about going deeper and covering less ground, right? Because we are, we are faced in our congregations with different levels of biblical literacy and, and spiritual awareness and that sort of thing. And so you cover too much ground in a single sermon, people heard it, but they may not have caught everything that you wanted and hoped that they would catch. So. To, you know, as I'm preparing to see these points where I'm tempted to turn a corner and go on to the next thing and to just stay there, to stay in that lane and to see where the spirit leads a little bit longer and trust that they'll, as, as an elder deacon said at my first church when I was anxious about canceling Bible study or something because of snow or some kind of weather that was coming in. He said he was legally blind and tell people he could see everything he needed to see, including me. And he said to me, remember, you'll never preach the whole Bible. Just get over yourself, man. It's going to be okay. So the other side of that is really going deeper and covering less ground. So that people can hear a different, you know, more of the implications of the gospel and not just information about the gospel. That's really important. It also strikes me, this may not be the case. So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you've also named it this year's your 25th year in ministry. And so it feels like that's also coming to terms with, Hey, I'm in this for the long haul. And so I can go deeper and not have to do all of the things and preach all of the things. Does that ring true to you or am I, you know, just blowing smoke? Yeah, I would still say it is I'm a work in progress. You know, Because my work is what I love to do and feel called to do, it's easy to do it all the time. We had a bit of a celebration for this milestone because it's seven years and 25 years was ordained here. And I had to share with the people, you know, it's not always easy for me to celebrate. So thank you for taking this time and putting this moment in front of me. But every now and then my, my colleague on staff will have to say, you know, you know, you don't have to preach that, that particular Sunday, right. It's okay. You know, and and I would let it go. Because yes. I am, I feel good. Completely at ease, but I feel good about how I show up on Sunday mornings and what I try to present to the, to the church and the, the, the work that I'm doing, doing during the week to bring them a, A competent sermon and a prayerful sermon. So yes, I'm getting better at, at that. But it is, I, I confess to being a work in progress. We all are. Tell us about your strangest or funniest preaching moment. Great question. Great question. I would say probably about six or seven years in, I reflected on a sermon I'd heard several years earlier from, at that time, a guy was a giant in the Black Baptist tradition. Wyatt T. Walker, who pastored a church in Harlem for decades. And he, what he was known, one of the things he was known for was first person narrative preaching. And I heard one of his sermons and was just like, Oh man, this is, I love it. You know, I like creativity and this sort of thing. And so I decided I was going to do a first person narrative on Blind Bartimaeus, Mark chapter 10. And I didn't announce this ahead of time. I showed up Sunday, I read the text, and I said, you know, good morning, my name is Bartimaeus, and I went on to deliver this message. And after the sermon one of the members said, Approach me. She thought that I had become psychologically unwell. And she thought, I really thought I was Bartimaeus at one point. So I didn't know if I should take that as a compliment. Oh, you sold it too well. But that was a strange and very funny moment. So we, she, we became, you know, great friends, families wonderful friend, even, even now. So I was like, okay, you, maybe you want to tell people, but maybe not, you know, so I've not done any first person narrative since. That's fantastic. Wow. So you just never know. You never know. Prince, I would love to ask you a question that isn't one of our standard questions, but because you have a, such a wealth of knowledge and expertise in leadership, as well as in pastoral ministry and preaching. I'm wondering if you could talk just a little bit about the relationship you see between leadership and preaching. Yeah, I really appreciate that question, Mandy because I do think that there are pastors who struggle with, with this or maybe don't recognize the, the connection and, and the importance of seeing the two at an intersection. So, what I think pastors have to understand is you have this unique position and privilege of standing in front of the congregation sharing the good news of God. And you are the person who is providing significant, not complete, but significant levels of leadership within the congregation. And we know there will always be challenges and crises and problems in churches and, you know, that's just the nature of the work. But, but what a gift it is to be able to do that. To unpack the scripture in a way that can maybe help people see through, see beyond some of the problems to the possibilities. And we have to be very careful about this because we don't want to be manipulative with scripture. We don't want to be manipulative with our time in the pulpit. But I think to the extent that we can go to sleep at night knowing that we are being as integral as we know how to be. With the interpretation and the application of scripture, with contextual exegesis, understanding what's going on in the life of the church, and to offer people, if it's nothing more than a question, you know, it doesn't have to be prescriptive, it can be a question that you want to put before the congregation about maybe where the church ought to be going. And you want to do it before there's a crisis or a hot button issue in front of the people because that, it will be hard to. For people not to see that as maybe manipulative or emotional, overly emotive. But I think part of our responsibility as pastors and preachers. is to think about not just where individuals are going, not just how the message speaks to the individual in the congregation, not how it speaks just to Christendom, you know, the the kingdom of God, but how is God speaking to this particular congregation and, and to believe that the Spirit is leading the congregation in a particular way. And it's, so it's, it's, somewhat incumbent upon you to. Be listening both to the spirit and prayer and to your leaders and to people so you can have a sense and you can name some of the things that may be helpful for the congregation to have name as you encounter them in the scripture, you know, so you're not proof texting. I think as you are prayerful and discerning and watchful, the spirit will show you those things in the text and bring them forward at an appropriate time. So that's. That's been my approach, and I think congregations have found it helpful, but again, you know, it's, you have to trust your voice, you have to believe that there is a sense of pastoral, both identity and pastoral authority, not authoritarianism, but authority to play a role in leading the congregation. And part of that is what is God saying through the text? Thank you for that. Thanks for allowing that little. detour there. No, thank you. You've, you've talked a little bit already about things that you adopted into your preaching practice that have been meaningful. But I'm wondering if there is any other practice that had has become vital to your preaching, either your preparation or in your embodiment and delivery or post sermon that is something that you weren't taught. But has become vital to you. So Mandy, I, I like many preachers, pastors have, I'm on the introverted side of the spectrum. No one told me to do this, but early on, I mean, from day one, almost, I elected not to set appointments before noon. So my appointments early on would be after lunch. I would spend the morning reading and writing Bible study sermons. It took a lot longer to write a sermon those first couple of years and prepare a Bible study and a lot more anxiety and worry and, you know, fear of failure, all those kinds of things. And I have continued that practice, not quite as rigid now as I was then. And what I found is, so having that as a rhythm for me, and I say this in class and people look at me like, you know, what are you talking about? And I'm like. When you schedule an appointment at the dentist, you schedule an appointment when the dentist is available. If you make yourself available all of the time, then you are suspect to be busy all of the time. Right? So if you can carve out times when your commitment is to sermon preparation, is to prayer, is to reading, you know, and maybe it's not every morning for everybody, but you know, certainly set times throughout the week and the day. And try to maintain that then the days when you have to bend that rule, don't derail your whole week, you know, because you throw in funerals you throw in hospital visits. The, the counseling appointment that couldn't wait, all of these things add up and begin to chip away at your time. And so then what happens, sermon preparation oozes into the weekend and you, if you have a family, you don't. You start not seeing them and this can really have a negative impact on your, your joy in ministry, on your family life, on you know, your ability to lead in a healthy way. So for me, it's always been, what time do I need to set aside to make sure the one thing I cannot delegate is that showing up Sunday morning. Ready to preach Gardner Taylor, the, you know, the giant of preaching said his, his, his goal every week was to make sure that the church had a well rested body in the preacher on Sunday morning. He couldn't guarantee the message was going to be something but it should not be because he had been up all night, and he was tired, and that resonated with with me I you know I need my seven hours of sleep, I just do. And, and so I think. Setting the time making the time, don't worry about balance, get your rhythm there is a difference and, and you will find that over years, it will pay dividends to your mental health, your spiritual health, and your Your joy in showing up in the pulpit every week. A lot of wisdom in that answer there. It is. And for me, I mean, like, I think that goes back to this piece about self awareness. Like, this is who I am, and this is what I need to show up as my best and fullest self. And that's what you've named for us. And I love that there's a grace in that, like, you know, for you, it might be afternoon or, you know, schedule, however you need to set your schedule but, but make sure it works that for you so that you can show up as your best and fullest self with, with you having done your best work for others in the pulpit. And Rich, I'll just say, you know, it will change more than likely for people over time, you know, even for me, the last couple of years. Son, 19, playing on two soccer teams, daughter, 14 you know, her after school athletic events. And I have made a goal to show up at all of their events. Well, I have to flex my time in different ways and kind of show up a little bit every day. Whereas, you know, I didn't do that before because that two hour block, I'm going to be standing on the sidelines watching a soccer game. It's sustainable, it's doable, but you know, you think about what your other commitments are and try to backfill the way you, you set your time. This conversation has, has been so rich but we're going to begin to draw it to a close. So Prince, the bridge serves preachers who are early in their career. What word would you like to leave for them? I would want you to, I mean, I can't say it. better than my mentors said to me, than Thurman said, and that is to really be, be true to yourself. You, you do not need to be like anybody else or everybody else. God has uniquely gifted you and called you and lean into that, lean into that. It, it may, it's going to take a little courage, maybe a lot of courage. But God will be with you every step of the way. And you know, callings, vocations shift over time, but if preaching and pastoring is your calling today, lean into that because you are doing work that is so important to people's lives showing up and sharing the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thank you for that. This, I can't wait for our listeners to get their ears on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us Reverend Dr. Rivers. This has been really wonderful. Thank you, Rich. Thank you, Mandy. Thank you. Well, friends, we would send you to our website, www. upsim. edu slash bridge, and find us on social media. We're on Instagram and Facebook. The Bridge for Early Career Preachers is funded by a very generous grant from the Lilly Endowment's Compelling Preaching Initiative. You can find out more about that initiative and other grant programs just like us. at compellingpreaching. org. We'll be back next month with another episode. And so until next time we invite you to preach faithfully, to preach boldly, to be true to yourself, knowing that God will be with you every step along the way, and that we too are here for you in these early years of preaching. Take care.