Creative State

Creative State | The Tomy Durant Episode #2

• Chris Donaldson

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Tomy Durant is da man. As showrunner on such epic shows as Ice Trucker and Car Trek, he knows of which he speaks.  There are some real gems in here.

If you have any interest in filmmaking, from getting your foot in the door, from to how to navigate a tough business, to learning about how to structure story, this is definitely worth a listen. Plus...

Ghosts.

He pulls no punches and gives us all a very clear perspective on the true nature of the game. Do you need to go to film school? Do you need to go in debt? How important is networking, and much much more.

His credo: say yes to the universe. Let's make something together. It's an approach that has gotten him very far - and he has the chops and work to back it all up.

Subscribe. And don't forget to visit our sponsor, Creator Deals: www.creatordeals.com

© 2023 Moment Film Co, LLC

Just when you thought it was safe to boogie in the streets. Along comes creative state at the intersection of art and business. Hey, everyone. In this podcast, I talked to the one and only Tommy Durant, who is a showrunner and producer Xtrordinair on epic TV shows like ice truckers and car Trek.

Chris:

In this episode, you're going to learn about the mindset you need to break into the business. Why film school may not be as important these days as everyone thinks,

And some great tips on how to pitch your next project. He also delves into something that is way out of my wheelhouse, the paranormal. This shit is net is four reels. But first, a quick add read from our sponsor creator deals.com. If there's one thing, all of us creators need out there to do battle in the creative economy. It's the tools for success, and that's why we've partnered with creator deals.com. The number one destination, to discover the best deals. Out there from Adobe creative suite to the best desk chairs, to all the goodies, we need to make the good stuff. So we can put a dent in the universe, check out creator deals.com, empowering creators everywhere. And now let's get busy.

Chris:

tommy, thank you so much for joining me. I know you've had a really lut illustrious career currently as the series, uh, producer and director on the acclaimed car track as well, executive producer on car issues, highly acclaimed YouTube series, all that jazz. And I know that before that you spent, um, quite a number of seasons just supervising, uh, story and, and crafting the editing around ice truckers, of course, which everyone has heard of on the, on the History Channel. Awesome show. Um, that's all great and good, and I'm really excited to talk about that. But first, are you ready? You ready

Tomy:

for this? I, I hope so. Tell

Chris:

me everything you know about the paranormal.

Tomy:

Uh, I have, so in, in probably about 1999, 2000, I got involved with some paranormal investigative teams. This was before the go at, uh, not goad that too. How, how though, how

Chris:

did you get involved with paranormal? The same story.

Tomy:

Everybody, let's, it's the same story everybody has, you haven't experience growing up in your own home and you're like, well, what the heck is that? And you get curious, what was the experience? So we had a lot of things in our home that were, so, first of all, let's,

Chris:

let's just like 10,000 foot view. Okay. Your home is where

Tomy:

I grew up in a small town in New Hampshire and this town, uh, it's bordered on candy and hooks it, which are two small outside of Manchester, which is like the only city-ish really in, in the state. So we had a small farm there. The property had been purchased and the house had been built by my mother's first husband. So mom was married, had a husband, had three kids. uh, he decided to commit suicide on the property and my mom held onto the property for about two years, uh, without any help, but was struggling financially. Mm-hmm. and met my dad who had built a house down the street and they started courting and then they got together and dad moved in to the property where I grew up and whoops. We're not married but we're pregnant so we should probably get married cuz that's how it was then, uh, in New Hampshire. Like the part of New Hampshire I grew up in is very old school. So, uh, even though I was born in the eighties, it felt like I was raised in In sixties. Yeah, exactly. you know how 13 we had kids? No, I'm kidding. Um, yeah, So I was born there and I started as a young kid, started talking to this gentleman that I would see in my room who would always ask me how my mom is and to tell her things. and to tell my sisters and brother things. Uh, at that time I was too young to know what had happened, but as I grew up, I was told by the family, they're like, yeah, you were saying stuff that our dad would've said, or my ex-husband would've said, but he wasn't, you know, he obviously had killed himself, which is how I came to even being, so those experiences plus some other things that had occurred in the house, I was like, this is super interesting. So at. I

Chris:

mean, super interesting or scary as all get out. I mean, was it, or were you just sort of at peace with it? Oh, there's the ghost again? Or

Tomy:

how, how did you frame that in your mind? Yeah. I never felt, I never felt any sort of malicious intent from what was going on with him. There was other stuff that happened that, like, of course it would freak you out. I mean, it would freak anybody out. Cause it's not normal, right? Like at that time you're just like, these are just stories that people tell to scare you. Uh, so it just made me wanna read and, and delve in. So like, one of the first books I read at like 13 was, um, A Gentleman The Exorcist? No, no, no, no, no. uh, I believe it's Lauren Cole. I think I might have his name wrong, but he wrote a book, book on Bigfoot, and I'm like, oh, let me read this. So I go to the public library, check out books on Bigfoot. I read the entire Time Life series on the unexplained in the paranormal as a kid, like I'm, I'm barely a teenager, and so I just was fascinated. Yeah. And so like, then I graduated to books like Hans Holzer, who's, uh, you know, like a godfather to the paranormal community. He wrote a book called Ghost, and it's a giant encyclopedia thing that's, you know, several hundred pages. And it's very scientific because, you know, he had that background. Uh, but it was fascinating to me. So I got involved, I found a team when I was old enough, uh, you know, 17, 18, to finally go out and do these things. Started learning the early tools and tricks and, and trade items that we'd use to capture evidence and, and try to see if there was something actually happening. And I'll tell everybody, it is definitely a pseudoscience. None of this stuff is really built for what we're using it for. But like, I've been doing this since I was 17. There's not, there's no doubt in my mind that something is happening because too many people are having these experiences that I. If you were in a court of law and this many people said the same thing and had the exact same activity happening and they, you know, all came together and said they witnessed something, then the court would rule that they've seen it. Right? Yeah. So I treat it the same way. It's all circumstantial evidence, but there's enough of it to feel like there's something more happening to tip the scales. Yeah. So I, I definitely believe, and I've witnessed some things in my time doing it, and it's been, uh, for me, a, a great pleasure and a privilege because I've been able to work some am with amazing people that are in that field that have really paved the way in a lot of senses. I've worked with a lot of families and individuals who have had situations happen and they've come out better for it. Uh, cuz I, I feel like a lot of this stuff happens and just like anything you can, you can play a victim or you can take it and move forward. You can process it. Yeah. Process it and, and see if there's something you can do in your life to better yourself, even with this experience happening. So that, that's really like how. it's gone. And I still consult with people all over the country, all over the world. Uh, giving my thoughts on, on what's going on. I still do podcasts occasionally, but you know, my days in the field have been numbered since taking over and doing more producing. It's kind of hard to do that as a, you know, a paid job versus everything I did in the paranormal as volunteer, you know.

Chris:

When was your last paranormal experience?

Tomy:

The last case I did was probably

Chris:

not necessarily case, but paranormal experience that you personally had, probably around

Tomy:

the same time. May and maybe they're one in the same. Maybe they're one in the same. Yeah, it would've, it would've been on the case. Um, the last case I did outside of Los Angeles, so we keep all the details confidential. I don't sure like to give too much out because a lot of these. Have, uh, jobs and, and family members who don't believe or are right, not only skeptical, but vehemently skeptical about it and just don't want to hear it. Sure. So we, uh, we keep that pretty close to our chest. And, and so like the last case we did, uh, turned out it was, there was some psychological issues that were being experienced, but there was also something else happening, which sometimes they do go hand in hand. Um, but you know, it wasn't by any means my most exciting case, but I, I think it was great because we were able to get this person to, to start getting the help for the psychological aspects of what was happening. And that's a lot of what we did on the cases was really determining, is there something else here? Is this a psychological issue that needs to be addressed? And who can we connect these people with to get the help they need?

Chris:

Wow, interesting. How many years ago

Tomy:

was that? Uh, we moved, God, we moved to Bellingham over five years ago now. So about that. Mm-hmm. six, six years, five, six

Chris:

years ago. do you think those experiences, I mean you're trying to understand something that's not seeable or knowable, at least in the traditional sense, and you know, that sort of then sort of dovetails into mythology or myth, if you will, which then dovetails into story if you will. Do you think that that helped you shape your understanding and craft StoryCraft behind being able to story tell as effectively as you do?

Tomy:

I think a lot of what I learned in the paranormal aspect of the investigations and the process of, uh, figuring out what's happening, the, the diagnosis phase, that certainly helps because we're trying to suss out details in a story there. And we're interviewing clients a lot of times, multiple times to determine if they're fabricating things, if they're member remembering things incorrectly, if there's, uh, incongruencies in the stories. So like, That I think was probably the most beneficial thing when I came into, especially documentary and reality television, because a lot of times, you know, people love to tell you tall tales, but when you go down there, you're like, well, this person said they could bite the head off of a reptile, but they weren't even touch the reptile So, you know, when we're developing shows and trying to, to find people that can be the centerpiece of an, of a show that we pitch, that's something to look for. And how much are they just full of crap? And how much are they really, you know, the real deal. And then also having to deal with so many individuals and families with various levels of trauma or drama in their lives. Um, that careful approach that I took there. I, I very much do take in my interview process now. Mm-hmm.

Chris:

Well, if anything, it must've also just really sort of tuned your BS meter, right? I mean, you were, you probably were able to, huh? Is this person, I mean, there's, there's obviously the people who really think they saw something and didn't. There's probably the people who really saw, who think they really saw something and did, then there's probably the people who, no, they didn't really see anything, but they're telling you they did anyway. Yeah. Uh, and they know they didn't. Uh, so I'm sure you sort of have to probably triage that quite

Tomy:

a, quite a bit. There's a lot of, uh, trying to, uh, truffle snuff that out and it's like, is this actually a trouble or is this just a turd left over from somebody else being there for a week? You know? Right. And that's, that's unfortunately the part of it. But I, I'm fortunate enough that I was, at a certain point, I became known enough in the community that other teams would go in and start the process, and then when they realized it was something beyond the scope of what they're used to dealing with, that's when I would get called in and, and kind of begin interacting with these teams. So that was fortunate, but there's. A lot of people, uh, in the paranormal community, and I'm not trying to blame anybody or name names, but there's also this want by a lot of them to be recognized for a big case or to, uh, you know, want to have something so amazing that it's gonna surely put them on the map or they'll get their own TV show. And funny enough, that was never my thing. I turned down every TV show except for one. And that's because a friend of mine was the producer and she's like, Hey, uh, you're the least crazy, crazy person I know you mind coming on and just doing sit down interviews in a chair. And I was like, that's fine. I can, I can do the chair thing, but I don't wanna put my credibility at risk in that field because I worked really hard to be respected in what I did there. And as our conversations have gone off the cuff too, it's like I, I work really hard and I, I appreciate being respected for the crafts that I do. Uh, so it's very important to me to not tarnish those things.

Chris:

Definitely, I mean, people are already skeptical to begin with and so to you, you know, one thing you've got to work at building up is, is a level of credibility in that space. So, yeah. And, and same in, same in Hollywood. I mean, it's, it's, you know, you're, you're, you have to be very careful about what you do in the biz as well, you know, for fear of damaging your reputation, or dare I say it, selling out, doing something that you really don't want to do but do anyway for the cash and then you end up in the long term. You know, it's, it's, it's not the right choice. So, yeah. Interesting. Um, so how did you sort of make the leap into from that into, you know, working in the film business?

Tomy:

There really was no one

Chris:

thing. Lemme interrupt you just for a second. One thing and, and sorry, I'll probably interrupt you a couple times. One of the things this, this podcast is about is really sort of helping other people get started in the biz or understand how they can survive in the biz once they're in it. And, you know, there's so many non, there's so many traditional and then there's the non-traditional paths. And so really interested in just hearing sort of like the genesis story. You're sort of Batman origin story around this.

Tomy:

So I, aside from the paranormal, because it was a separate part of my life, I compartmentalize my life. What's crazier? The paranormal or Hollywood? Hollywood. Yeah. The paranormal stuff seems to have rules that it exists by. Yeah, right. Does not. Um, yeah. I, I went to Rhode Island School Design, which is a pretty well known arts school, uh, sister school to Brown University in Rhode Island. And I got my degree in film, but of course they're an art school, so they were more concerned with how do you make, uh, Andy Warhol esque piece or do some documentary on some. Weird subject that only you are gonna care about. It just wasn't my, my thing. So when I was getting ready to graduate, I'm thinking, okay, what do I do here? Because I need to pay off$120,000 in student debt and I need to figure out like what I'm gonna do with my life. So it came down to if you moved to New York or you moved to Los Angeles, those were the two big hubs. And I chose Los Angeles because New York City for me, uh, was very confining. It, it felt very claustrophobic. And growing up on the small farm in New Hampshire, that's the opposite of me. Like, I could handle Boston for a few hours or couple days, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, New York, I was just done within an hour every time. But the food great. Oh, you know, but I was like, lemme move. Oh, it's awesome. It's awesome. But

Chris:

I hear you. I hear you.

Tomy:

Yeah. Yeah. You gotta go where you feel comfortable enough. And even though Los Angeles was a world away, God, it was, I mean, you couldn't get much further away from my family than I did. Uh, but I moved there and started a life and, you know, took, the first thing was take any job I can get. So I got hired as a unit production manager, which is basically a logistics person who just kind of tries to put stuff together and figure out financials and, and kind of help the producers do their job in terms of like the logistics of creating something. So on this feature, so you jumped into

Chris:

that, right? That was your first job as a

Tomy:

U P M? Yes, because it was an ultra low sag budget film, which didn't have a real budget for proper producers. And they're like, eh, we could probably train this kid. Unfortunately, I'm not a logistics guy. So, uh, by the way, this was a feature film starring Aaron Paul before he got big from baking bad. Oh, right on. Um, so that's how I met him back then. What's the, what was the name of it? It was called Daydreamer and you'll never find it cuz it only got released in Japan. Surprisingly. Uh, so yeah, anyway, did that, I, I was on that for a couple months and then got fired. Uh, cuz I was well not equipped to do that job by any stretch of the imagination. And a friend of mine was like, Hey, I'm working in digital restoration. Do you want to come help us out? It's more of like a VFX gig. And I had interned and done some stuff on that, so I was like, sure, that seems more comfortable. So I worked at a place, uh, it used to be called dts, digital Images. DTS used to be like the big competitor to Dolby.

Chris:

Um, totally a hundred percent. You see it at the end of lots

Tomy:

of films, right? So they're digital imaging department. I restored films like all of the James Bond series that got re-released on Blu-ray. I restored a number of pieces of Disney animations that were being re-released in 4K and, and hd. So it was kind of an easy animation job, but eventually that dried up because. The company was kind of losing money and they were like, oh, why are we outsourcing this if we could do it in house? So that's interesting though that

Chris:

you So, I mean, I understand. I understand. Just a, again, very high level view of digital restoration and what that even means. But I know that a lot of it involves going frame by frame. Yeah. Through film. Right.

Tomy:

And and could be anything from like clone stamping out pieces of dirt to like repainting James Bond's face from five or six different frames. Because the back in the day when they hit film, film, film, the film would fade, or at the cut points it would morph. So like you'd have seven frames of pierce bron's face that were just absolutely garbled and you couldn't see it was him. So we'd have to find frames from other parts and other sequences and match the lighting and kind of superimposed pieces or repaint pieces. But with the animations, like on 101 Dalmatians, when we were doing that, a lot of it was us repainting every frame almost. Yeah.

Chris:

So you did 101 Dalmatians.

Tomy:

That was one of the restorations I worked on, um, Peter Pan. I mean, it's hard to remember. Wow. It was a, I mean, a lot of the, the big Disney animations were going through it at the time. So yeah, we handled those and, and again, it's like the thing I learned most about being in Los Angeles and working in the film businesses, don't be afraid to take any job that comes your way, even if you suck at it like I did with the unit production manager job because it's just another foot in the door and it's another set of people you meet and yeah, if they like you enough, they'll find a place for you. So I just kept moving place to place and friends would get me gigs. And that's kind of how, one of the things that's

Chris:

interesting about the digital restoration, I'll tell you about my first job, well actually, I guess it was my second but still sort of indicative of, of Hollywood. I was hired as a production assistant to, so I lived in Denver at the time and um, this team came out from LA to shoot this commercial and this director was a chain smoker. And we're filming in Estes Park, Colorado. Oh, I love it there. The most beautiful spots

Tomy:

on earth. Yeah, right. So amazing.

Chris:

And so we're in Estes Park and my sole job for four days this, this director was a chain smoker. He would smoke his cigarette down to the nub and then right before it went out, he would take another cigarette and light it with the cigarette that's just going out. And then he would throw the butt on the ground, stick the cigarette in his, the newly lit cigarette in his mouth and walk away. My job was to follow him around and pick up his cigarette butts and I That was my entire job description and that's when I knew baby fucking the film business is for me. One of the things

Tomy:

that's interesting,

Chris:

that's amazing. You said a couple interesting things. One was, The digital restoration and basically going frame by frame through some of, you know, some, some classic films. Do you think you learned some storytelling and editing from that process? Did you think that sort of, you, you know, was there osmosis that occurred during that period or?

Tomy:

I, I would say not really. Yes. Cause you're so locked in just to the bottom frame, you're not seeing it's microcosm. It's a real microcosm situation. The only thing is like for the films that we did, the, the features that we handled or the television shows, cuz we also did like Young Indiana Jones and all, which I don't even know if they've re-released and all the, the Disney Nature Docs. Um, you do learn about like framing and shooting. But it wasn't anything that I hadn't already sort of picked up from analyzing films when I was in college. And I'm not saying the college was the one helping me do this. It was like, Hey, let me see what they're doing. Oh, there's lights here, there's lights here. And I had a few professors that I could talk to and they would give me their insights because they were industry folk and they, I think they were more helpful than, than the actual structure of the schooling was so, mm-hmm. you know, and then you get out there and you realize like when you're in Los Angeles doing this thing that you know, half the people don't have degrees. They're just, yeah, I got in doing this and just moved up the ladder. And you're like, oh, all right. You know? So something else

Chris:

you said, which is dovetails perfectly with that, is just say yes to opportunities that come along. Yeah. Especially when you're starting out. Just say yes to the universe and really grab you know what you can and do the best at it. um, one of the things you like to say on your website, the call to action is let's build something together, which is sort of that, that forward looking embrace of let's, let's do it, let's make it happen. Ha you know, emphasize again, or just sort of restate how important that is when you're, when you're starting, starting probably any job, but, but specifically in Hollywood, just being open to that.

Tomy:

It's always a collaborative process, right? Like you, you have filmmakers that are like the James Camerons who kind of think themselves the brainchild of all their work and, you know, it wouldn't be anything without them. And, and the, look, I'm not putting James Cameron down. He's very successful, but most of us know from doing this long enough that it's the collaboration aspect that makes a lot of the work great. Or helps it to succeed. And so I've always. That's not true. At first I thought I was gonna be the egotistical little Brett and be like, oh, I think I can make better. But like, as I've been growing in this business, and especially now like being a producer and and director and working with so many talented people, you just see what everybody brings to the table. And especially when you can develop a shorthand with these people, you really can find ways to make some things happen that you would've never been able to do just on your own or that, you know, usually the budget for the things I work on doesn't allow for certain things, but because of the talent that we, we've kind of cultivated over the years and the people that we've embraced and we trust, we're able to troubleshoot and create as close to that thing as, as we can within the budget that we have. Mm-hmm. So I think it's important to just always be open. And that's why I said, you know, take any job you can get. And that's, you said the same thing. It's like whatever opportunities are presented to you, it just makes sense to try it, to take it and to move forward with that because you never know where it's gonna take you. Because even when I moved on to Deadliest Catch, it was, uh, like that was a big change. Like I was an editor for doing some history docs and science channel docs for a while, and that dried up and like, it, it was basically in 2008 when the first big recession hit. So I was outta work and a buddy of mine's like, look, hey, I've got this gig. You'd start as like, somewhere between a, an editor and an, uh, assistant editor is something we call a junior editor. So like, you're cutting, but then it goes to another editor to play with. So I took that position cause I'm like, fuck, I'll take, sorry, I swore, uh, I'll, I went to that position and, and I said, you know what? I'll take whatever I can get because I don't want to, I don't want to have ego because if you say no to an opportunity, there's a chance that it'll never come up again. So I said, yes, I got on that show. We obviously did really well with that show and became successful and I moved up the ladder there as well as on some of the other shows at the company like Isro Truckers or Axman, a show called Swords, which later sort of parlayed into Wicked Tuna. So, you know, getting into that spot was great because I got onto a show that was documentary based, but it was all about storytelling and seeing how the producers were putting the stories together. Uh, it was a great way for me to see like, oh yeah, so documentary can be just as intricate as a feature film, A reality TV can be just as intricate as a feature film. You, you tell the story, you just happen to be telling the story with pieces that are just from like 8, 9, 10, 12 different days of footage. And how do you make that cohesive and make that, uh, distilled into something powerful enough to then wins a bunch of Emmys? So, That's, that was the thing. It's like we, we really like, the whole team was great. Like Ben Ow was an editor there. I learned so much from him. Uh, Roman Mn, who became the showrunner of Storage Wars down the road, uh, just like these great guys, really took me under their wing and showed me a lot of what they know storytelling wise. And I think that was a lot more helpful and, uh, helped me like make the transition from cutter to producer. Mm-hmm.

Chris:

So I can imagine like, just these, just this tonnage of footage coming in from these boats. How do you make sense of that? I mean, I, I know that, you know, since this is, you know, reality tv, a lot of it is unscripted. Um, so you, you're getting this and then you're crafting the story from what you get to a large degree. Yes. How, how, how are you, I mean, I imagine at the beginning it's just like this huge

Tomy:

puzzle. It's overwhelming. a lot of people actually quit because they can't handle it. Yeah. Like as a, as a story producer who's in charge of writing the script, uh, from the footage and writing video to bridge things to the editor who, you know, makes it all cohesive and turns it into an actual story, um, like there's a, there's a lot of people that get overwhelmed and quit these shows, so, or get fired because they're just not up to snuff. And, and it's unfortunate, but it's also like survival of the fittest at that point. And Sure. It forces you to dig in and say, okay, look. there's a lot of stuff. I'm gonna watch it all, I'm gonna make notes on what I watch, then I'm gonna take those notes, distill that down into something. You're gonna watch it all until your eyes bleed, right? Yeah. I mean, pretty much there a lot of late nights on the show and there's like, on shows like that, there's a team of people that log the footage and write stuff down and team of people that sort of go through the footage and kind of say, look, here are the big moments, and put stuff together. Uh, as the reality budgets have declined over the years though, it's less and less people on the team. So it becomes a little more of like, yeah, and then there's always the, like, I just like to watch the footage because I wanna know what's in there. So, right. Personally, like I would dig into the raw footage anyway, even if I had notes, because the notes from the field can sometimes be a disconnect from what the reality of the footage is, cuz like, oh, this great thing happened. But then yeah, in real life it felt like a great thing. But when we see it on camera, it's like that's barely on camera and it's not good. So we can't really make that the centerpiece of this scene. So you have to go back to the drawing board a lot of times. And, you know, I thought it was always sure

Chris:

it's true too, right? You, you know, someone says, ah, this really wasn't that, you know, and then you go, wait a minute, I'm gonna, this actually is a gem. Yes. This is where the whole story, the crux of the story right here.

Tomy:

Yeah. And a lot of like when the, our cast would crack on camera, like a lot of the, the slow build to somebody having a meltdown. Like we have to thread those stories. Uh, so a lot of it is those little moments that people don't think in the field, but they're, they're really instrumental to telling the bigger story of how this person does not survive this season on the crab boat. Or how this driver keeps having issues with their truck that eventually leads them to flip out at the, at the owner of the truck. Right? So it's that kind of stuff that we would look for and build to, and, you know, again, it's, if you wanna learn how to craft story, I'd say the best way to go do that is to jump onto a docu-series like, Those shows and just assimilate all the data, learn how to process that and learn how to put that out there as a cohesive, tight story.

Chris:

Right. And that carries over into narrative, right? That that sort of structure that you just learned in the documentary space has a lot of power in the narrative space For sure. A hundred percent. You're, you're, you're looking, you're looking at the same story arcs, you

Tomy:

know? Yeah. You, you have an easier sense of like being able to chart your story because you've already known how to distill stuff down into an arc. And then you can focus, you can spend more time focusing on things like tone and tone charting, right. Your, your piece. As opposed to just like trying to figure out like, oh wait, where's the connective tissue on this? It's like, no, you know what the connective tissue is, you know what the arc is. So now like, oh, but is the tone right? Well, let's move these pieces around and make sure that the tone flows and brings people on a beautiful ride. Right. Nice.

Chris:

So you said you went to the Rhode Island School of Design. Um, At what point in that journey did you realize, Hey, I wanna be a filmmaker?

Tomy:

I went there specifically with that in mind because in, I believe it was 92, 93 when Jurassic Park came out, I went to a theater. Blew your mind. Just like dinosaurs were real, man. It's so cool. Yeah. And then you start like seeing the power of art films and smaller, smaller projects that, that become big because they're so good and you're like, you know, there's, there's something to this. And yeah, I mean, like everyone else, I had the dream of directing scripted films, but at the same time, like sometimes your life takes a turn and you get stuck doing documentary stuff, which you don't wanna do, but you learn some tricks and then that sort of like helps you to develop your. chops in other areas and, you know, you start treating your documentary projects like scripted films. And so that sort of was like kind of a realization I had later in life, I was real bitter about it early. I'm like, oh, why am I doing reality? But I always wanted to say yes to the opportunities because again, you, you just never know where things are gonna take you. And it's, it's a tough business. So if you can get in, you get in. Right. And

Chris:

that's not to say you still can't do that. Right. I mean, there, there's exploration. That's, that can still happen for sure. Yeah. So you said, so you went into debt 120

Tomy:

grand for this? It was more, it was more than that. But that's the culmination of the student loans that were as I was getting out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even with

Chris:

scholarships. Yeah. I think a lot of people get, do do that, make that choice. And I think in the long term you might say, yeah, it was worth it. But tell me a little bit about how, oh, I don't. Yeah. Okay, good. Yes. Talk to me about that. I don't,

Tomy:

yeah. For the bunch of people that don't have those degrees and don't have that debt and are just as talented and can do all the stuff I do. Uh, so it, I don't think it's necessarily for everyone. I, the reason I'm glad I did is because some of the people I met there were instrumental in helping me get my foot in the door out there. But Yep. Like aside from that, the education aspect, I mean, I don't, I, I don't think it was worth anything. And that's why I tell a lot of young people, if you want to go to film school, I feel like you're set on going to film school, choose one in Los Angeles or in Burbank, that at least that way you're interacting with people that are locals, you're interacting with people in the business, you're surrounded with people in the business, and you'll never know what opportunity is gonna come up. Yeah. I think

Chris:

a, a lot of people don't realize that yes, there's the education component of course, but far outweighing that is the network component that you build. And if you're gonna take that route of going to school, you really need to start thinking in terms of, and it sounds a little mercenary, but it is true, meeting as many people as possible, figuring out what people are doing out there, offering people help whenever you can, cuz then they'll return in the favor. Um, that to me is the, you hope. Yeah, you hope, you hope, But that to me is the, yes. There's a better chance of them returning the favor. Uh, that to me is the, the real intrinsic value of school that I think a lot of people miss or. We're, we're never just consulted on, you know, it's, it's not, you know, I think that, that, that's, uh, something I wish I had leveraged quite a bit more because I think I did an okay job, but I didn't really understand that all these people are here for me to meet and learn from. That is such a, such a valuable, um, perspective, I think.

Tomy:

Yeah. Um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want it to be disingenuous though, if I can interrupt on that, because like, yeah. One of the things that I really try hard to not do, which is the very LA thing, is to make these connections and these friendships purely based on the what can this person do for me? Um, oh, for sure. Sure. Because especially now, people can smell that a mile away and they're going to treat you accordingly. Whether that's just blowing you off or that is actually, uh, just doing the same thing, like trying to use you for something down the road. So I. I always want people to come from a genuine place because it does lead to stronger relationships, and it does really help them to, um, stand out in the crowd, especially in Los Angeles or New York, because if you're a genuine person and you're, you're genuinely keeping these relationships, like I'll talk to buddies of mine that they're network executives, they're just friends that are network executives. I don't try to leverage that all the time. It's purely like, let me keep that communication line open. Let me be a friend to this person when they need that. You know, or if just they pop in my head, you reach out to these people and that allows them to know that I'm not just trying to use them for things. And if an opportunity comes up, great, but if it doesn't, like no harm, no foul, it doesn't matter because you still have this friendship with that person. Uh, and again, you never know where paths are gonna cross down the road or who's gonna, like, I just met one of our cast members from Deadliest Catch here the other day. And I'm like, Hey, I've seen a lot of your face. And it's like, oh, and we know all these same people and you know, it's just because I've always been genuine. Like he could call any one of those guys and say, Hey, what, what, how, what do you think about Tommy? And they're gonna tell like, I'm just an honest guy. And I think goes a long way.

Chris:

Yeah. I didn't mean to imply otherwise if I did, because I think, you know, you again, going back to let's build something together, you know, and, and how can I help? I mean these are, you know, these are, these are attitudes. They're going to carry you really far in the business because it's not the approach that most people take. Most people are looking out for number one. And if you can really think about in the context of, you know, providing value to people and really being of service to people, that's gonna take you a lot longer than, than, than trying to cash in the next chip. Right.

Tomy:

Well, and even like in town here, I like reached out to people, obviously like yourself early on when I first moved here. But then I got to meet Gary Washington who was on, uh, I believe he was on your podcast already. Um, yeah, Gary runs Bleeding Ham, the big horror film festival in town, which is actually like gaining recognition every year. And Oh, it's badass. I love it. It's so much fun. And then like I, if, if I had just been trying to leverage relationships, I may not have ever done that cuz you know, Gary wasn't a big wig in the industry, but he was a cool guy. We were into a lot of the same stuff and you know, we started hanging out and then he asked me to judge bleeding ham and I thought, this is super cool. And then when we had a position come up where we needed an assistant editor, I'm like, Hey, do you want to take a crack? it was never for like, what can you do for me? It was purely like, he didn't even know I was in the business for a long time until like a conversation came up and he's like, wait, what? What do you do? So I think it's, again, it's important. Any relationship in your life can lead to something you just don't know. And again, that genuine honesty and, and being grounded with people and, and not, you know, trying to over network as I'll call it. I, I think it's a really crucial skill to have and, and know to dial it back when you, you catch yourself doing it and

leading

Chris:

with gratitude, you know, is, is, is, it's so important. My daughter, um, is in LA right now and she got her first gig. She applied for, uh, a production assistant job on a television, television show called Single Parents. It's no longer running, but it ran for two seasons. Um, and you know, she's applying along with hundreds of hundreds, you know, probably tens of hundreds of of people. um, probably about, uh, 50 of these people made it through to the interview process. She was one of them. Out of those 50 people, only two of which she was, one of them sent a thank you note after the interview. And that for all practical purposes, that thank you note was the differentiator that took her to the next step and she ended up getting the job. And so, you know, just being really, you know, gracious and, and respecting people's time. And these are really, it's, I think it's not, not set enough, um, cuz it's a skill unto itself. And if you can carry that with you, the chances of opening doors, uh, just, just grow exponentially.

Tomy:

Um, well, and you wanna work with people you trust, right? Like so yeah. When you see somebody has compassion, has gratitude. why not have them on your team? Because they're less likely going to try to stab you in the back than some, you know, person you've been working with. That you know, would literally, I mean, and I've had this happen, literally waited till I was in the field on a show to turn around and, and take another show from me. So it's like, well, yeah, I, I was supposed to be running that, but now you worked really hard to get me off so you could do it. And what the show got canceled. So w w

Chris:

Right on man. So, um, what are you working on right now? What's happening? What's, what's

Tomy:

going down? So we just, uh, wrapped the 10th installment of Car Trekk, uh, car Trek 10, which is on YouTube. We also wrapped our MotorTrend Discovery Channel show car issues, which, uh, we're really happy with that. It's another micro. Automotive show. But Tyler, who is also on Car Trek, he's just an awesome person to work with. He's a lot of fun. And we just buy fun cars and then figure out what crazy stuff we can do with them and uh, you know, then we get to go play and see what people think. And so like the show's been doing well on Motor Trend and we're really happy and we're hoping for a fourth season cuz you know, I like continued work, especially with people I like and my crew is awesome. My buddy Brent and Jordan, uh, both of them outta Dallas, Texas area. They're awesome. Automotive, uh, dps and drone operator and they just make it fun to be out there. Rob Stacy, who is my, uh, co-ho runner with me, he handles the stuff that, uh, I am not equipped to. And I'll say as much as I love the creative aspect and I do a lot more of the creative side of things, uh, I'm not a good, uh, let's say. Executive in, in terms of like the amount of emails and the amount of logistical stuff and the amount of like dealing with the, the other individuals that we have to work with for the network side. Like I'll do some of it, but Rob really handles the majority of that because he's much more grounded than I am. And that lets me kind of go play and be creative and have fun. So I really love our team. Um, Brandon, who is the owner of Bright Bay Creative, that, that's the company I work for, uh, Brandon Killian is just awesome, dude. We started on Deadliest Catch together. He was a story producer. I was an editor and as we moved up the ranks and as he moved up the ranks, we, we stayed working together for a long time. And when he had his own company going, he had enough shows, he kept asking me to come by and I kept saying no. Cause I had a. And then it worked out to where I was able to jump in, do some development for quite a few years and pitch shows with him and his company and his agency. And, and now it's like we get to make these shows. We have a show for Netflix where I'm working on that I can't talk about yet cuz it's not announced. Or you'd have to kill me in my entire audience. I don't wanna do that. Um, yeah. But, you know, so we're, we're pretty stoked about that. We've got some stuff going on with a company called DraftKings, which is an online betting, uh, company. Mm-hmm. so doing some sponsored content with them. So like, we're really, we're really happy and I feel really blessed that I've had work for, you know, all through this covid period when a lot of people lost their jobs. Like, I was able to, you know, just take the reins and, and do the stuff that I love to do and go make content and have fun.

Chris:

Do you think it came back to. That a, that sort of attitude that you have, whatever it takes, you know, you know, it's surviving through Covid, really looking around corners, maybe pivoting a little bit, being agile. I mean, is is that, was that part of it for

Tomy:

you? I, it's always been my mindset. So I think like, part of my producing roles, originally when I moved into supervising producer, I'd still end up cutting at times because yeah, I was a valuable asset and you, you and I have discussed this, it's like I always put my hands back in the pie because I wanna be a team player and I don't want to ask my crews to do anything that I can't do. So even when we're Yeah. Or wouldn't do, and even when we're out shooting, like, I'll grab a camera and I'll go out and I'll shoot with the guys. My stuff looks awful compared to theirs, But I'm still like, I'm there and if there's a shot I want that I can't clearly convey, then I'll just get it. you know, we'll see if it's, if it's good and if it's not, no big deal. We have enough other footage. So it's, yeah, it's been all about that. And like when we'll do pitches, I'll go out and direct and shoot a lot of these and, uh, you know, come back and help cut'em and, and get'em organized and do some of the effect stuff and, you know, all that. So it's just, I think the versatility is what has made me an asset for Bright Bay Creative to stick around. But it's also the fact that we've developed this friendship over the years working together and being in the trenches, so to speak, and they know they can trust me to not screw off and to do it. Right. Yeah. It

Chris:

reminds me of this story, and I don't know if this is a true story or not, but it's become sort of Hollywood lore in my mind at least, where, uh, Christopher Nolan's, uh, directing something down in Australia and they're getting to the end of the day, and they're shooting this, they're filming this house scene. and you know, they, they're, they're right on the martini shot, the last shot of the day. And they're wrapping it up and everyone's sort of breaking down and Christopher Nolan looking at this house and going, huh, I wonder if we should blow this house up. I don't know if I'm gonna use it, but I wonder if we can blow this house up. And so they bring over the special effects guy and the guy sort of walks over and Christopher Nolan goes, Hey, I know this isn't the script. It's totally, you know, off the cuff, but you think that we could safely blow this house up. I just want to get a shot of the house blowing up. You think it's possible? And the special effects guy sort of looks down to the ground and sort of scratches the, the dirt with his, with his feet as he sort of thinking about it. And then he looks up at the gleam in his eye and says, fuck yeah mate. And they go ahead, and they go ahead and blow the house up. Right. And uh, I think that's an attitude that's sort of just like you said, saying yes, you know, being leaning into things and. And, and just taking that, that, because the universe will come to me. I, I'm a firm believer, you know, you talk about the paranormal, you know, I'll talk about karma. I'm a firm believer and the universe will meet you halfway if you're, if you're coming at it with good intention, you know, a lot of the times, you know, the universe will build a bridge for you. And so I I love that. I love that attitude. Yeah. What's the most important part of a pitch from your perspective? How, if, if you were to say, oh man, you're going in for a pitch, let me remind you of a couple things. Do this in this pitch.

Tomy:

I think from a personal standpoint, uh, being confident with your product, that goes a long way cuz that will be the first thing that they hear coming outta your mouth. Uh, and that will clearly shut you down immediately. It's just like a script. You read the first five pages of a script, if you're doing coverage, which is how they judge scripts, uh, you're pretty much like sold or not sold. By that far into the script. Yeah. So go in with confidence. The other thing is know, your, know who you're pitching to, because we don't just do a pitch and send it to everybody. We tailor things for every network that we work with. So if it's travel channel, gotta have some sort of paranormal or mysterious twist to it. If it's discovery, it's gotta have a little bit more of a drama twist to it. History, little outlandish. You can kind of go a little slapstick sometimes, um, or a pure history, a addition to what you're doing. So it's like, yeah, this is crazy content, but like, here's this history pod. You know? So it's, it's really about like figuring out what those networks are known for. and just putting enough spice in there to make it feel like they had a tailored fit for them. And it Yeah. Makes their confidence go up in what you're doing. Mm-hmm. but also, like, don't be afraid. Like if you're, it's, it's common for people to want to go pitch a show and to think like, oh, I can make it. They're never gonna pay people to make the shows if they already have production companies that they've trusted, that have delivered consistently, um, to go do it. So you and your production company are probably not gonna be the ones making the show. If it's your first pitch or even first five pitches, it's likely they're gonna source it out. So just don't be offended by that. Keep a good attitude and just make sure that they're not stealing your IP while still being amenable to the process of like, okay, well if I'm gonna have to co-create with these other people, how does that, how does that look? You know, what, what does my role fit into that? Maybe it's just, Hey, I signed off my rights and they do it, but I'm listed as. You know, creator of the show or an EP on the show, then I can parlay that into the next thing. Then when you have enough the calling card. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it becomes like, okay, now I have enough street cred where somebody's going to let me do the show and then I'll go take out that loan for 10 million to do it. Uh, I don't know what I'll leverage, but I'll do it you know, because that's, I mean, it's essentially the process. Like you, you get an okay and there's some money released, but you're on the hook for everything until the final delivery. Uh, so you have to finance it. And, uh, a lot of people forget that, that there's a financing side to this business cuz it's a business and you have to be able to retain that throughout the process to ensure that you can get from start to finish. Cuz I've seen companies go under because they're like, oh, we got our first payment from this network and we're so excited and they take out a loan for way less than what they need and then they can't finish. And they're like, Hey, give us more money. And they're like, well, you haven't hit these payment triggers. Wow. Wow.

Chris:

Right. How do you plan for that? What, what, what?

Tomy:

You know, really good, really good producer who can, yeah. Create a budget that makes sense and work with creative to create the budget that makes the most sense. And just working with your people, your team, and saying, look, here's what we got to work with. Like, our shows don't have a lot of money that we work on, but we find ways to, we find ways to make it work so that everybody's happy and we know that there's bumps that go up with subsequent seasons or other work that happens. So it's just about trying to make right by everybody, but knowing like, Hey, out of all the projects, like this is just one that's gonna be a little tight. And on this side, like with my boss, Brandon, he'll finance a lot of it through the banks and then pay it off with the money that comes in from the network as we.

Chris:

So, let me understand this correctly. So when, when, and I, I know every deal is, is a hundred percent different than the deal that just proceeded it or the deal that we'll follow it. Yeah. Um, but generally speaking, the, the network says that's a heck of an idea. We're gonna give you the first payment for this. That payment then sort of allows you to go out and finance the rest of the money that it will take to,

Tomy:

to start developing and to finance. Yeah.

Chris:

And to finance. And as you hit certain milestones, then the network sort of pays off that, that debt, that that debt that you just took, you know? Right. And then at the very end, once the final delivery comes in, they're then giving you another chunk that you hope is on top of the debt that you just took out. So you actually make a little bit of scratch on top. Is that, is that just

Tomy:

right? Or you build your scratch into the, the subsequent payment so that you can up your company, afloat, get along, going along the. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure everybody listening has heard of padding the budget, everybody does a little bit. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's of course it's, thanks Adam. Yeah, exactly. Cuz you know, contingencies happen where, hey, we have to dip into extra money because this was twice as expensive. Or the network, the boat sink. Yeah. Or the network asked for an explosion when there was no explosion in the original script. All right, well you know, I'm glad we have a contingency cuz they're not gonna pay us more for it. They just want it. So how do we make that happen? And so there's things like that that occur that, you know, producers who are more versed in the money side will be able to talk to you about and give you more detail. No, but that's a good, that's just a good overview. Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, that's the simple side of it. It's a, it's a financing business for tv and for us it's like, well we know it's a risk, but we also believe in our ability to deliver the product. And we know that when it's done we'll have all our cash and the com company will just continue on. And a lot of companies, how they mitigate. The sort of like waves of doing shows is to have a full-time development staff that's kind of built into those budgets as part of the the padding. Yep. And they're constantly building and pitching shows to networks. Well, the rest of us are creating stuff and as that's happening, like we hope that, okay, this show's done. All right, we're rolling into the next one. Great. Let's go do this.

Chris:

Yep. And that's also why the network wants to work with tried and true partners cuz they can't afford to have a project halfway. And then the financing runs out on the, on the, on the production team side. Yeah. Yeah. Cause

Tomy:

then it's a huge loss. Like, you know, discovery Channel doesn't want to put, where did that money go? Yeah. They don't wanna put up like a, it's say a$7 million series. They're not gonna put up$4 million and just lose that and have nothing to show for it. Um, I mean, it's happened for sure, of course, but it's, it's usually more because the money runs out and the product is awful. And so they're like, oh, we won't just cut our losses 4 million bucks. Right. let's never show this to anybody. You know, especially now that Warner Brothers came in with discovery and they're hatching things left and right. So, um, you know, I think it, especially as brand awareness becomes more of a thing in modern world, that's something to be careful of is like, okay, at any point there could be a switch in brand awareness and then your product doesn't fit. So make sure you have that contingency cash in there to fix it so you can stay relevant and stay with the network. Mm-hmm.

Chris:

Nice. How many times a week do you have someone else in that room with you?

Tomy:

Uh, not ever because I live very far away from everybody else at the company and from all the people we pitch with. So I am on Zoom calls frequently. I'm on a lot of phone calls, but in terms of this office in Bellingham, it's great because it's sort of my sanctuary. Mm-hmm.

Chris:

Nice. Do you find yourself struggling at all with loneliness as a, as a creator? I mean, or it's No. Yeah. No.

Tomy:

No. I, yeah, if you're on the phone all day, it doesn't, you're not really alone I actually, and, and I'm, I'm more of a hermit type personality. Like, I'm very outgoing, but I need to have my alone time. So it kinda works out that I'm the same way. I'm the same way. I'm interacting all day and then I go home, I interact with my wife to be a good, caring husband who's present for her. Yeah. And then I go lock myself up in my room for like, A good three hours to just veg out. Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah. My, my, my partner Julian, you know, we sort of ship, we're in and out of the office a lot and some days, you know, we won't come in or Julian won't come in and my wife says, w was it lonely in the office today by yourself? And I'm like, no. It was, I was awesome. I was just like, I zeroed in on the work that needed to get done. It was ama It's so amazing.

Tomy:

Yeah. I think the focus is good. Hey, I, I do miss the social aspect of working in Los Angeles on like Sure. We had a place called the Green Mile. I had original productions where I was at before and it was great cuz you could get up, socialize with people, but I mean, truthfully it is easier to just focus, get stuff done and, and that way it's like, it's cut my workday from 12 to 13 hours a day down to like eight to 10 and then I can actually go home and work out and do things that are kind of important to not dying. Well, that

Chris:

is interesting because I think all of us who work in the business struggle with setting those time boundaries. I mean, there's obviously a, all of last year production teams were talking and pushing back against the 14, 16 hour days, which, you know, we're, are quite commonplace. Um, and so to survive in this business, you have to take the, take your time back. Um, and it, it can be a struggle against when you have these deadlines. It can be a struggle when, uh, you know, you've got people calling you up on the phone and saying, they need to see this tomorrow, even though they, they really were scheduled to see it the next day. And, you know, you know, that happens all the time. And so, yeah. Good for you for, for setting that up.

Tomy:

Yeah. It, it's not always easy, like when we're in field, I, I mean, we're working, we're shooting for 12 hours a day, maybe plus, and then I've gotta prep for the next day. So I'll, I know that when it's field time, You're basically working on a crab boat. So yeah, you're like, okay, this is gonna be constant, but when you get back to post, there's times where it needs to be stressful and needs to have more time allotted to get things done. But that's where, again, like I have a team of editors and a team of story producers, but I still will jump in if I know that what I'm asking them to do is going to put them well over their hours. Mm-hmm. uh, because I, I never got that when I was an editor and a supervising editor, and it would've been so much better for my health to just know I wasn't alone doing the job because editors, it's like somebody can rewrite a script and just throw it at you and say, okay, here you go, do this. And you're like, well, this is a complete reconstructive of the scene. Yeah. Just get it done tonight. That's not how it works. No. Yeah. So, The where I would come in is like, for, especially Car Trek, because it's a tight schedule, um, I would jump in with the three editors we had on and help them to recut things or to, you know, work through them with notes or finding shots and just whatever it took to get it across the finish line without asking more of them than I was gonna give. And I think that's probably why people like working with me. I don't know, you'll have to ask Gary if he even likes working with me, but like I, I try not to put, put people in a position where they're gonna be disgruntled, uh, or feel mistreated. What

Chris:

goes back to that relationship thing, you know, and, and building, you know, collaborating together and building things where it's not always gonna be fun. Yeah. But if you've got a team around you that you can trust and you, you know, has your back, um, it's, it's gonna be a lot more fun than it otherwise would've been. and it, it, you know, and having that loyalty and, and, and teamwork just engenders itself in future projects. When things get hairy, you know, you can make the ask. Um, because people know that you're looking out for not yourself. You're looking out for the team. And it comes back to that whole relationship building that, um, aspect that we were talking about at the outset of the, of the pod, which is, I, I think just invaluable. Uh, we could talk in, in episode, you know, the, the next episode with you, we'll talk about your migration up to Bellingham. Cause I think that's a fascinating story, how you managed to work, um, sort of outside the confines of Los Angeles County. Um, pre covid too. Yeah, yeah. On some really big projects and how that all works. I, I think that's a, that's a really great story. But I know we're running up against the hour here, so I just got a couple more quick questions. What pisses you off the

Tomy:

most? In life or with the industry? in general. This

Chris:

is a, this is non-qualified question.

Tomy:

I mean, I get triggered by a lot of things. I'm a New Englander, so we're sort of just constantly in the state of being triggered. Bad drivers are my number one, and even if I'm a bad driver some days, but like I'd say bad drivers are pretty, pretty big. I don't, I, I really don't like laziness. Um, that's unfortunately a side effect of my very domineering father who, uh, had to work really hard his whole life. And, and the good news is it taught me a really solid work ethic. The bad news is it makes me very, uh, not compassionate towards people that just put in no effort. But at the same time, when you're in this business, why have dead weight around when there's like eight other people that would be willing to put in the work and. Can earn your respect and you can earn their respect and make the journey a much more pleasant one. So that's my big thing. If I, if I show up and somebody's not doing their job and I just can't, I can't respect somebody that doesn't do something. So, right. It's just a matter of like, well then I don't wanna, I don't wanna mess with this person no more.

Chris:

And it's not even about doing the job. From my perspective, it's about lack. There's one thing, trying to do the job. Yeah. But not having the skillset set, but trying your, your best to really make it happen. But like, like when you're in u m, right out the gates

Tomy:

in my, I worked. Yeah. Still you had the right, I mean I just sucked at it. I'm not, those people all

Chris:

be like, okay, there's lots of potential there. We just need to reshape that energy. Cause you've got it. But then there's other people who just can't do the job because at the end of the day, they're just, They don't have, they don't, they don't have the work ethic that it takes. And if it's one thing you need to be a creator in this and or, you know, at all, or especially in Hollywood and make stuff. It, you have to have a work ethic. Yeah. There's just no one who succeeds No. Without that work ethic.

Tomy:

Can I, can I share a quick story? Absolutely. Real quick? Um, no,

Chris:

as long as you want. This is a, we have no, yeah, we're, we're all good. We had a,

Tomy:

uh, a person who, uh, let's just say is related to my wife. I don't want to call'em out too bad. Uh, or her, him or her. Just Uh, but were they, yeah, they, um, I was able to get them on a job where they were working on a pretty high profile show. It was a starting position, but there was room for growth. And what I heard from all my friends who work on that show, It was the same echoing sentiment of this person did not try. They barely were functional. They didn't understand half of what was being asked to them, but instead of asking, they just didn't do anything. Uh, and then they ended up crashing the company vehicle for, uh, you know, some reason. So I have become incredibly cautious with recommending people for jobs now. Mm-hmm. uh, not just because of that, because it does like, just know, it makes, if somebody recommends you for a job and you know that you don't have a work ethic, just say no. Because like, you're gonna make that person look like an a-hole and you're gonna look like an a-hole yourself. So just don't bother putting'em through it. But like, it's, that's part of like another reason, that's a pet peeve of mine because so many people would've killed for the opportunity to work on a show like that and to be able to like, get some chops with a celebrity and it fell apart because they just. Couldn't keep it together or just had zero initiative. And it's just, it's unfortunate because it would've been great if I could have given that opportunity to somebody that would've taken it and succeeded. And a lot

Chris:

of the times, these people who don't put in the effort, they don't realize what an opportunity it is, right? It's like three years from now, they might have like a moment of self-awareness where they say, oh my God, I had that opportunity and I just did that. You're kidding me. Uh, it reminds me of a story, one of my first jobs in la. I was standing on this set with my hands in my pockets, and this producer, who's a really sweetheart of a guy, but he was bus, you know, he is about, he's, he's all business too. He came up to me and he said, you know what? Let me give you a piece of advice. Take your hands outta your pockets. Look like you're ready to make things happen. And then he walked away. And I just remembered that because, you know, you know, that's sort of like lean, be be ready to be ready to help. Just keep your, you know, your eyes open for how you can, especially when you're on the set. But, but, but, but in all facets of the business, it's, it's, it's, it's critical. Um, the previous guest gets to ask the current podcast guest a question. Oh God. So this question comes from Gary Washington and it's, oh, so God, it's a simple one. I was expecting something a bit more spicy to be honest,

Tomy:

because I'm like, wait a minute, he knows me. I don't know who the next person's gonna be.

Chris:

Um, you don't, yeah. Yeah. I'll follow up with you once we have that all dialed in and you can, you can shape your question, but he just wanted to know what sort of personal projects you had. on sort of the slate for 2023. A

Tomy:

lot. I'm a workaholic, so I kinda overdo it. So, um, aside from the projects that I work on that I'm paid to do, I have side projects that I always take on and never finish. So I still have an ongoing documentary on wolf conservation that I'm ever trying to finish and get done, which I started in 2014. And, uh, it unfortunately since 2014, wolf protections stories changed. No, no. Wolf protections are still not where they should be at. And there are plenty of states that still hunt wolves and I think it's pretty despicable at this point because we know that. Whatever damages they, they cause to livestock owners, those get repaid and it's, it's all manageable for allowing the species to reist where it already did before. So, yeah, that's a problem I'm still working on. And then what

Chris:

do you think the barrier is for you in finishing that?

Tomy:

I mean, time, this is one time is probably the biggest. Um, access sometimes can be hard, like we've gotten some people, but when you're, especially something that's politically charged, like this documentary is, it very much takes a liberal, uh, app cuz I, I am a liberal at heart. Like I've always been a liberal mm-hmm. Uh, so it, it's hard because a lot of organizations who usually help fund, they don't want to be seen as political entities because they play both sides and that's a part of how they function. Um, for me it's like, why not call it what it is? It is a, unfortunately a political issue and that's. you know, and I, I, I have plenty of Republican friends that I absolutely love. Somebody's making, somebody's making money somewhere, you know, but there's, there's something going on that is causing this to still be an issue. So I, you know, I'm happy to call it out. So that's, that's another part is the access because of that. And then it, yeah, it's just really time and, and like money, it's, it's fine. If I had time off, I'd go do it because I love it. And that's, I shot the first, you know, three years with the film doing that. And Lord knows, it's not like I don't have the gear. It's just really having the time. And then when you start the editing process for a documentary, Like it's extensive because you have to siphon through all the footage. You have to then start distilling it into your cohesive story. And if you don't have people to bounce stuff off of or you know, you can't afford to pay people to come in and, and bring their perspective, then you're like, well then it's just on you to do. And that's really unfortunate. I

Chris:

think peop, I think first time filmmakers really get sort of Roma, they, they romanticize this documentary, uh, aspect of filmmaking. Go out and shoot a whole bunch of stuff, not then realizing that that's gonna add up, end up in the editing bay where the real work happens. And so a lot of this footage just sits on hard drives for years and years and

Tomy:

years. Yeah. And then just knowing how to form it together. And then the licensing you need, like do you need stock clips? Because now, like if you're gonna try to put it out to recoup any losses, you gotta pay for a stock license or to try to get clips that are specific to what you're doing. Uh, a lot of people that are not editors to start with will probably forget a simple thing like B-roll. You have all these really nicely shot interviews and you have like a couple little scene things, but there's not enough B-roll to cover the whole thing. So now what do you do? Well then you definitely need that stock library to try to fill it out. So it's, it's a time thing for me for sure. And it's not that I don't have friends I could ask to come help, it's just. It's more of like, I would rather, at this point in my life, I'd rather pay people for their time if they're gonna do something that I know is gonna be difficult and challenging versus like, if it, if I was gonna go shoot a feature, it's like, okay, great, we have a, a script. It's easy to cut features in my opinion. Like you're, you're focused more on the nuance, but it's much easier to cut a feature than it is to cut a documentary. So, hey, once everybody shoots it and a lot of people have fun shooting features, then you can come back and, you know, you pay what you can and, and then owe a lot of favors to people, and I'm fine with that too. Yeah, yeah.

Chris:

Nice. So, martini shot, what advice would you give to the first time filmmaker, content creator, artist? It doesn't have to be specific to filmmaking per se, but what, what, what, you know, you went to the, you went to the Rhode Island School of Design, you know, like you probably met a lot of different people from a lot of different sort of artistic disciplines. What sort of advice would you. would you, would you give the, the, the, those, those people entering the market or just starting school or, or what have you? Uh,

Tomy:

first would be what we've been saying the whole time. Just say yes to opportunity because you never know. Like, you know, a buddy of mine, Brian Chesky, ended up forming Airbnb with another friend of ours, Lee. And that was their big claim to fame, right? So like, they did something that wasn't an industrial design, uh, you know, degree necessary. They, they created something. So don't lock yourself into whatever it is you went to school for if you did or don't think like you have to do a certain thing and also never feel like you have to lock yourself into a career because yeah, it was an editor and a supervising editor for probably about 10 years before I moved into producing. And I'm glad I moved. I wish I'd moved sooner cuz I'm a lot happier doing this. But at the same time, it's like, There were still skills to learn. There's still reasons. I, I, I think I was in that spiritually speaking, uh, to understand crafting and storytelling, but I made the move because I knew it was, it was better for my soul. So don't stay with something just cuz it pays you really well or whatever. Like, find ways to fill your soul cuz that's gonna make your your work so much better. Love

Chris:

it man. Love it. Yeah. Hey, I also hearken back to what, you know is on your, your website as sort of the call to action. And that is, you know, let's build something together, you know, so get, you know, let's, uh, you know, to you I say, you know, let's build something together in 2023, man. Yeah, it would be, it'd be frigging awesome. Uh, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And, um, when I know who the next podcast is, the podcast guest is, I will, I'll let you know so you can craft a really spicy question for,

Tomy:

I can give you a generic one right now if you want. Sure. And the generic one would be, if you had all the money and time in the world, what would you make? That always me tells

Chris:

a lot about people. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, um, that is a good question because when I, when I'm asked that question, it, you know, it's sort of, I say I, I, you know, I would say if, you know, I would write a script and shoot it, you know, it would be a narrative piece. But it is funny cuz even when you say, even with the constraints taken off of, Right. When I say to myself in my own, my, my own mind's eye, I want to make a narrative. I wanna write a script and shoot it instantly, self-doubt creeps in and goes, well wait a minute. You can't do that. You know, what makes you think you could do that? You know, it's, uh, Even when I'm a billionaire, I'm still gonna have all this freaking self-doubt. Damn it.

Tomy:

Yeah. But again, that's what forces you to be better, right? Because that self-doubt is something that you can look at, assess and then see like, is this a weakness I'm pointing at at myself? How do I fix that?

Chris:

Exactly. Yeah. You construct it. You can, you can then construct the framework to, to sort of work within that and, and, and, and, and make the, the dream come true. So I'm a, I'm a hundred hundred percent old about that for sure. Um, I think that's really interesting. You know, and pe pe you know, you, you touch on people painting themselves in the corners, people painting themselves in the careers. Well, you do have to at some point just say, what do I really want to do regardless of all this other stuff? And go for it. Because as far as we know, although there is the paranormal out there,

Tomy:

you know we're not for that.

Chris:

We're not guaranted a second swing at this thing. So you may as well, you may as well go for the fences. Right on man. I appreciate your time and certainly in touch soon. Thank you Chris. Appreciate it. Thanks man. Yeah. Take care.

Bye.