Creative State

Creative State | The Baylee Sinner Episode #4

• Chris Donaldson • Season 1 • Episode 4

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In this episode,  Filmmaker Baylee Sinner chats about wrapping up her documentary  ‘Where the Rope Ends’….

The importance of the side hustle, 

Having an accountability buddy…

And what you might think about IF this was YOUR last moment on earth. 

Pure Friggin Gold. She also mentions this really cool short film called 'The Back Seat' (8 minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1b7QlQILRo

And I talk about this invaluable perspective shift on hourly billing versus value based billing for creatives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1b7QlQILRo


© 2023 Moment Film Co, LLC

Just when you thought it was safe to boogie in the streets. Along comes creative state at the intersection of art and business. Hey, I'm here with Bailey center today in this episode, Bailey chats about wrapping up her documentary film. She directed called where the rope ends, the importance of the side hustle. Having an accountability buddy. And what you might think about if this was your last moment on earth. Pure frigging gold. So let's dig in. But first a word from our sponsor creator deals. If there's one thing, all of us creators need out there to do battle in the creative economy. It's the tools for success, and that's why we've partnered with creator deals.com. The number one destination, to discover the best deals. Out there from Adobe creative suite to the best desk chairs, to all the goodies, we need to make the good stuff. So we can put a dent in the universe, check out creator deals.com, empowering creators everywhere. And now let's get busy.

Chris:

Hey everyone. Welcome to Creative State. I am here with Bailey Sinner. She is an inspiration to me because she's actually gone out and made a documentary, which I think is just so frigging badass. Um, she's a graduate of Washington State University. She's worked in digital for the Seattle Seahawks. She became associate creative director over at seven two and worked with for clients like at and t, Netflix, Amazon, some big kids out there. And now you've directed or maybe even sort of directing and process, um, a documentary called End of the Rope, which sounds amazing to me. So I think I sort of wanna start there and then maybe work our way backwards a little bit. Tell me. What inspired you? What possessed you Yes. To say, I'm gonna go out and make this, this documentary. Tell, tell us a little bit about that journey. Oh,

Baylee:

okay. So the documentary's been going on for five years, and, um, at that time I was working at an agency. I was at, um, Vossler, Vossler Media Group. Um, they're based outta Kirkland and, uh, and I'm always doing side projects, like my whole

Chris:

side hustle.

Baylee:

I know, I know. And norm, like most of the time it's like me getting latched onto an idea and being like, oh my gosh, I'm going falls to the wall with this and I, well, for like a night, and then I'm just done. So that's like pretty much what I'm always doing. And, um, And so this project started, I was doing, uh, yoga teacher training. Um, that was another, another side hustle. Um, and, uh, I'm on the first day, well, actually prior to going into yoga teacher training, I got an email, um, a GoFundMe that was about this woman that was a member of the studio that had just gotten in an accident, a canyon nearing accident. I didn't know what Canyon nearing was. I'd never met this woman before. And she had, uh, she was a trauma nurse at Harborview Hospital, had all these hospital bills, um, was really struggling and, um, I don't know, well, I usually like don't donate to random things like that, but I just felt compelled by the story and I donated and then I walked in on the first day of this six month program, and there she was in a wheelchair and she had this metal bar that was holding her pelvis together and, um, taking the class. Taking the class, becoming a yoga teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Which like in itself is just fascinating. And obviously we do a lot of yoga in yoga teacher training, and she would just, she'd have her eyes closed and she'd be moving her arms, but she was just in a zone. Um, and I just was super fascinated with her. Um, the, the program went on for six months. She's very quiet, but just very deep. And, um, I never even really talked to her that much. I was just kind of observing her from afar. And then we got paired up together for like, our final project. Um, and I went over to her house, started learning more about her story, and was kind of like, would you be interested in making a film about it? And like, when I said that, that was the version of me that was literally like, would get attached to ideas and then, you know, would work on'em and they fell away or whatever. Um, And she was like, not super excited about it. She's, but she really wanted to give back to Search and Rescue. She was like, I don't think my story's that good. And I'm like, no, it's a very good story. And she's a cap an a credible character. So then, um, it started out as a short film that we were doing for Search and Rescue to raise money and awareness for them. Um, and then now here we are five years later. Uh, it's a feature length film. It's grown in so many ways, which I could talk about more in a second. But I think the only reason why, like I've been able to continue with this project is for sure because of her, like it's really opened my eyes to like how important it is, at least for me to have an accounta An account accountability buddy. Yeah. Like whether that's a client or a coco collaborator, like I've learned, I, I just can't. Keep my excitement on my own.

Chris:

Yeah, that's interesting because I think I'm the same way, you know, I am, I am like, I'll see a shiny object and I'll rush over to it and then I'll rush over to the other shiny object. And I think that, and then we start making excuses as to why we can't do it for whatever reason. Um, but filmmaking and art in general is such an endurance contest. It's really something you just have to put one foot in front of the other to get to the finish line. And so having that person on the other side who is holding you accountable, you were very smart to, to take that approach.

Baylee:

For sure. I had no idea that was the intention. Luckily, like her and I work so well together. Um, but you're right. Like it is, and I don't know about you, but I look at all these. Projects that I started and I've still, like, I, there's a couple that I'm sort of working on right now. Um, but I'm really, I'm, I'm really into the idea still, and I'm just like frustrated with myself of, oh, why can't I finish it? But I think now knowing, okay, if I'm gonna really dedicate myself to something, I'm gonna need someone else to hold me accountable.

Chris:

Right? And also just that time management piece, right? We all have this vision of that there's 30 hours in a day, but there's not. And so you've really gotta pick your boundaries and, and draw those boundaries and realize that every time you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else, whether you realize it or not. And so being very careful about what you do say yes to, but once you say yes, go. Going hard. Yeah. So, oh, good for

Baylee:

you. I'm very bad at that, but yeah.

Chris:

So five years later and, and you're, you're approaching the finish line. Tell us how that feels. Tell us what, what's going on in your mind and tell us a little bit about what the film is about. Sure.

Baylee:

Um, so the film is about, um, so Nicole, she was climbing, she was Canyon nearing Wallace Falls, and Canyon Nearing is kind of this new sport where you hike up and then you repel down into a canyon. So in the Pacific Northwest there's a lot of wet canyons. So you're following the waterfall down. It's basically like reverse rock climbing. Mm-hmm. And so she was doing that with a group of friends at Wallace Falls, and she made a mistake and she was left there hanging and it came to terms with the fat, like, oh crap, I just made. A huge mistake and I'm about to die. And because like she had enough time to really ingest that. It wasn't like instant process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's just hanging there, coming to turn, which is

Chris:

probably worse. I don't

Baylee:

know. Oh yeah. Well, well you think yes, but, and she, you know, like most of us, you get that fight or flight panic that washes over you. Right. And that happened to her and then she realized, and I think this has a lot to do with her yoga background, is being able to like really focus on what's going on with your thoughts and shift that. And she told herself, no, if this is my last moment on earth, like I'm going to make it mine and I'm going to, you know, what's the thing that I care most about my daughter? And so I'm going to channel all the love that I have into the world for my daughter. And she experienced something I. Really beautiful and kind of metaphysical. And we go into that in the film and then she let go of the rope and free fell 60 feet onto a rock ledge. And as she was falling in her head, she just kept saying, be like water, be soft. Don't hit your head. Be like water, which actually used to be the tile of the film, but Bruce Lee has a documentary called Like Water. We changed it. Um, and she fell onto this rock ledge, uh, didn't hit her head, stayed conscious the whole time, and she's a trauma nurse. So she's laying there and she's analyzing all of her injuries and she says, okay, I have a spinal cord injury, I have internal bleeding. I'm only gonna last for so many hours. And her friends eventually came up and were able to get to her on the ledge. They're also trauma nurses, but. Didn't have any resources, obviously. Um, so she was there for four hours until search and rescue came and got her. Wow. And then from there, a very long, very long recovery. Um, but what do

Chris:

you, do you use that story as sort of as a framework to tell the story about search and rescue in general? Or what, how does that, how does that dovetail into that?

Baylee:

That's a great question because that has always been one of our goals is the purpose of this film is to benefit search and rescue. Um, but it's really hard because it's a personal in, it's a personal story about Nicole, we go into her backstory, everything. And so how do we weave in enough information about search and rescue to not make it feel like a detour? But it's also like, it's, it's not a search and rescue documentary, right? But we want people to become aware. So that's been a really. Big challenge is finding the right story elements. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I think we're in a pretty good spot now. I feel good about it. Um, and then, uh, one thing that we're really trying to make different about this film is like, there there's a lot of really great accidents, like extreme sport accident films out there where the accident is kind of the pivotal, the climax of the film or the pivotal moment in, in their, this person's life. And for Nicole, the accident, she was, you know, trying to achieve this, um, this state of bliss. You know, everyone always thinks, oh, if I had this one thing, I'd be happier, or if I could just achieve this, everything in life would be good. And like, you know, like most people, she was always searching for that. And, um, And then the accent happened. And it's not like even though she experienced this moment, it's not like she was like, oh, I found it and now I can live in peace. It's like, yes, she experienced what it's like to truly be present and know that like everything she had that she cared about was the love for her daughter. But then it's like, and she went downhill again and she was recovering and she started drinking and she, so it's just, you know, any life is like this rollercoaster. So we're really trying to portray what real life is rather than, than like have it like a, you know, a, B, c, something, you know, you're not happy. Something bad happens, you're happy

Chris:

right. So that's been another, well, the hero's journey is about that, right? Just like this sort of circuitous wandering through the woods, getting beaten back, and then finding a way to sort of persevere in the end, or just continue fighting the battle is mm-hmm. You know, that's sort of the endemic nature of, of like, of life, I guess. But it, you know, yeah. It never, it never lets up. Life is persistent if you're lucky. And so having, having, uh, the, having a solution is often just doesn't happen. You know? It doesn't happen. And, and so, yeah, it is interesting that you took that approach and, you know, wasn't, this moment of bliss wasn't, oh, the rest is gonna be great and no, it, it, in fact led led to another journey entirely, so. Mm-hmm. Sounds really, really good. I look forward to. How did you get involved in filmmaking in general? What was that inspiration? Did you grow up wanting to make films or is this, take us down that path a little bit. You know, what was your, was there a film you saw as a kid that just like, blew your mind and you're like, okay, I wanna do this, or what, what was that?

Baylee:

Yeah. Um, I wish I had a good answer for like, oh, I saw this foreign film that, that, but like, I, I, I want an answer that makes me sound cool, but I really like, all I watched was like, good Burger and Monty Python, one of my guests, fresh,

Chris:

one of my best said Jurassic Park was the one, you know? Yeah. And go, Hey, you know, so yeah. In Mon Python, you can't go wrong with that. Come on. I mean, yeah, Mon. Yeah,

Baylee:

exactly. But, um, no, I mean I always, when I was, yeah, like I always wrote, I was always writing stories and, um, And then I realized, I was actually thinking about this the other day, like once I got into English class, when you're actually like, start writing like beyond just the like big paper with the dotted mind. Six figures. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I like, I wasn't getting that good grade. This wasn't like, my teacher was like, oh my God, you're a writer. So I think I fell away from it. Cause I was like, oh, I guess, you know, I'm not excelling in this. Like I, I'm probably not a writer. Like I'm bad at grammar and bad, you know, it's not, not my thing. Mm-hmm. Um, so I fell away from that. And it wasn't until, um, really, uh, in college, this was the story I mentioned to you where, um, I started smoking a lot of weed and I think that was just my own way of just coping with, you know, different things. College, with college, yes. Been there and Yes. And I noticed that when I. When I got in that mindset, I would just freaking write like crazy. Like that's where my brain wanted to go. And it was kind of like when I was little again, where I was just filling up all of these notebooks. Yeah. Um, and I loved it and it kind of gave me that confidence of like, okay, maybe I, I mean I, I don't know if I would call myself a writer, but I'm really enjoying this. So I kept doing that. And then, um, years later, uh, was working at an agency. It was actually Bossler and um, they were hiring for an associate creative director. And I wasn't qualified for the position. Um, I had no professional writing experience, but one of the prompts was to write, A script. And um, I was close with one of the ACDs and I was like, can I just give this a try and I'd just love to get your feedback. Um, and so I did it and they really liked it and I ended up moving into that, um, moving into that position. And I think one thing that I learned is that with video specifically script writing, video writing, um, you don't need to have just because like it's, it's about the ideas. You don't need to have perfect grammar, you don't need to have whatever. It's like it's all idea oriented. And so then I was like, oh, okay. Maybe I am, I mean, I don't know if I would still call if I could call myself a writer, but I dunno. I guess I, I guess I'm so, yeah. Um, it's kinda a long answer for, uh, how I got started, but, um, well, it's

Chris:

interesting because a, you saw an opportunity. Um, and then b, you were brave enough to ask, A lot of people are afraid, afraid to make the ask, Hey, can I give this a shot or Can I help you? Can I try? Um, and you went ahead and did that, which I think is a real, real good lesson for people to hear because, um, you put yourself out there and obviously you had some talent or they wouldn't have, wouldn't have made an exception and, and brought you on board. Well thank, yeah, it was a, I think, yeah, that qualifies you as a writer cuz then you were paid to write. I'm sorry.

Baylee:

But its funny though cause you think of a writer as someone that like, uses really big words and uses semicolons correctly and,

oh

Chris:

my god, map the Oxford, don't bring the Oxford comment into this.

Baylee:

I like, so there's certain things with punctuation that I really wanna use or like the, the M dash, I'm always like, ugh, I really wanna use it. But I just like can't figure out how to use it correctly.

Chris:

Especially hard to use in scripts. Yeah,

Baylee:

yeah, yeah.

Chris:

Exactly. Do you think that going to school at, at WS u Washington State University, do you think that helped, helped you? I mean, did it, what, what sort of would For me, I gotta tell you, you know, I went to college and I wandered around a lot. And I, I, um, and I think that's good, but I do wish I had like, uh, someone standing over my shoulder and maybe kicking my ass a little bit more along the way. And I didn't really get that. I guess I, you know, I didn't get that much, uh, of that. Um, and I look back on it now and I think to myself, wow, all these people have come together to teach me. I could go over here and learn that. I could go over here and learn that. I could go over here, learn that. Ah, but shit, I'm just gonna go to the beach.

Baylee:

Um, I know, seriously, it's like if I were to take as an adult, I was like, oh, you could take this class. I'd be Yes. And so excited. Yeah. So it's like, I feel like the college that's like, I feel like that's way too young to be able to put the effort that you should be putting into your future career.

Chris:

Right. No, it's really interesting. I've been having a debate with others and myself about the value of school for sure. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Mm-hmm. And I thinks the value, don't get me wrong, but these days, yeah, it's really easy just to type into YouTube, how do you go out and do X, Y, or Z? And there's gonna be answers coming back from some of the most preeminent people in their field, and it's just that knowledge isn't as exclusive as it used to be. Um, yeah, that's that's true. But how did that, how did Ws u sort of, did, did it propel you? Did it provide you with the tools you needed? Or did you just sort of find that those on your own,

Baylee:

um, I feel like I'm gonna make a lot of coolers angry. Cause WSU folks are very passionate about their school. Yeah. Um, it's definitely not for me. I, um, I mean, so I, I skipped this part in how I got into film, but I, I mean, I was, I've been making films since I was like 12 years old and so just always making films. And then, um, as soon as I got my driver's license, I started working and started PAing. Um, and so I was really just trying to get as much work experience as I could. And

Chris:

tell us about your first production assistant job.

Baylee:

Ooh. Okay. Um, and how did you get it? Well, I got super lucky. I, um, I was interviewing for, or I, I was working a babysitting job and the, the son's. Dad, the boy's dad is a, was an executive producer for a huge studio in Seattle and I was like, oh, I make films. And, and it's so funny cuz at that age I was like, here, let me show you my work. Yeah, yeah,

Chris:

yeah, right.

Baylee:

The worst videos ever to a big ep. But he was super nice and he really took me under his wing and, um, and I got to pa on a bunch. I got to do like a, you know, a McLemore visit music video and a Bentley car commercial and also be involved in a lot of the pre-production and, and assist him leading up to it. So I just got really, really lucky in that aspect. Um, and pa, I mean, PA was incredible because I got to learn. Like the work ethic required in the film industry and like, just like I remember one of my first jobs was this Honda commercial and they put us up in this like shitty hotel in Forks. And I was like, that is the greatest thing ever. And I was helping out the art director and like we were building this set and I literally was just hauling rocks for probably like 12 hours. And I was like stoked. It was the greatest thing. Yep. And so I feel like to start, cause I like just starting with that energy was really exciting and being able to see all the different positions. Um, so I started doing that work before college and then I got into college and WSU is an intense place. It's it. It was intense. It was not for me. And I, like, I thought, I thought that's what I wanted. Like the high school meeting was like, I wanna join authority. And so I did all that and it was neighbor's nightmare. Um, and then quickly was like, all right, I'm ready to, I need to get back to working. And so like every summer I was working every break, I was working and then was trying to drop outta school. Um, but my parents, like, I'm grateful for the fact that, you know, they were pushing me to stay in and get my degree. Yeah. Like, you know, there's something to that. Sure. Um, but ended up just was feeling really lost. Took a semester off of school and wanted to do a film program of some kind. Um, so I, I worked, raise some money and then did a summer session at U S C. Uh Oh. Nice. Which was, yeah, it was a great ex. Any anyone can do it. You don't have to be college age. There's all different ages in my class, and it's really cool because at usc, the summer professors, they're, um, people that are active in the industry. It's not like they've necessarily been a professor for 20 years. Right. They have like very relevant modern experience. And the program was awesome.

Chris:

Interesting. So you went out and you, you know, you, you obviously jumped into the production assistant role and I share your, your, your knowledge around like being a production assistant teaches you a, a lot about the set and how things operate pre-production, set life post-production, but it also hierarchy. Hierarchy. Yeah. And there is a hierarchy and we have to remember that. And I think people forget about that sometimes, but, um, also just a work ethic, you know? I mean, it is, you have to be on time, you know? Mm-hmm. Period. You have to be ready to go. You have to, if you have the right attitude, you know, people just fall in love with you and wanna hire you on the next job. Mm-hmm. And, and then you saw an opportunity to sort of expand your, your schooling and jumped on top of that, you know, at usc, which is really admirable. And it's not just the schooling, but I'm sure you meted a lot of interesting people, like you said, the prof, you know, professors that were actually active in the industry. Um, so that must have been cool. Mm-hmm. That must have been just really quite the experience.

Baylee:

It really was. And, and I also, I have a friend, um, that I met at Wazu, whose name's Connor Devitt and he's an incredible screenwriter. He's in LA right now working on a bunch of cool stuff. Um, and so we met at Wazoo and he also did the USC film program. And, uh, within our, our time together at school, we probably whipped out like five different short films. So we also were always just creating as much content. As we could. And I think the benefit to that is as soon as I graduated, um, I applied for, uh, an internship at the Seahawks, and it was, it was pretty competitive. There were a lot of applicants, but because I had just always been working and, and creating short films, I think that gave me a leg up. Mm-hmm. Um, so, so yeah. It's just, I always urge like, um, urge students and young folks to just always be creating, because as you know, it's like every single project you learn something

Chris:

new. Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell, tell me a little bit about the work that you're doing now. So you've, you've cobbled together, I shouldn't say cobbled together, you know, put together this documentary, which I know was, you know, quite the journey. Um, what are you doing now to sort of finance your passion and, and, and keep going in the creative economy? Because I know it's, you know, it could be a little bit challenging right now.

Baylee:

Yes, definitely. Um, well, we, we got lucky and at the beginning of the project we had gotten some donations that, that kept us along. Mm-hmm. Um, at this point, now it's Nicole and I, the main subject, we're funding everything. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, especially at a time right now with all the layoffs, um, it's just, and like not a ton of advertising work coming through, it's a little scary. Like, honestly, the last two weeks I've really felt the pressure. Mm-hmm. Um, because we need, we're at the point where we need to put in a lot more money into the project. Cuz how this, how this project started is it was all volunteer and we got some. I mean, we've had amazing people volunteering their time. Um, but it's grown so much in scope that like, it's just, it's not fair to assume that these professionals can continue volunteering. Right. So we are now offering paid positions, um, even though we like, definitely can't afford it at the moment. Um, but like we have so many things with distribution in the works that we're expecting to get reimbursed mm-hmm. For that. So, I mean, the thing is, it's like the more work that we put into it, the more money that we can make from it. So that's what Sure. I just keep telling myself.

Chris:

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And are you, are you working other jobs or is this your, your sole focus right now?

Baylee:

Yeah, so I've been, um, I was with an agency in 2021. Um, And uh, and at that point, again, had like always done side projects and it kind of got to the point where I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to go freelance. Yeah. So 2022 I went, went freelance, um, and did a lot of, did a lot of Amazon work, did a lot of Microsoft work, you know, the usual Seattle tech companies. Yep. Um, and basically just like shoved that money away as much as I can. And what

Chris:

were you, what were you doing exactly?

Baylee:

Um, well for Amazon, uh, I was so happy about this, like my first month freelancing. Um, I got signed on to direct, uh, uh, series of, um, it's called Alexa Innovators. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's basically, it was one episode a month featuring different businesses that are utilizing Alexa. So I was like, thank God that was a good, good one. That's incredible. Beginning of my free Thank you. I'm very grateful for, it was super cool cuz every, I mean, we gotta travel. Like all over the world for these different episodes. Um, and the team was awesome. Um, so, so yeah. So that kept me really busy. And then just, you know, a but I've, I've kind of been operating as like a small agency. Mm-hmm. Uh, cause I do a lot of direct to client work. I don't quite advertise myself as that way, but I'm sort of, I'm actually working on a website to like a more of an agency branded website. Sure. Just opens up the door for more work. Um, so, so yeah. So that's kind of how I've been operating. And then as of now, I mean, things have been slow, like since the holidays. And this is really my first slow season as a freelancer. Yep. So I'm like, Don't freak out. Don't freak out. Yeah. Which thank God, the documentary, I mean, the documentary is probably like 30 to 40 hours a week. So if I did have paid work, it'd be insane.

Chris:

You'd have no time to get your laundry done. Yeah, I get it.

Baylee:

Oh, laundry

Chris:

horrible. No, I've got a whole closet full of laundry right now, let me tell you. Oh yeah. It's bad. No, that's interesting because I do think that, um, one of the things you said that resonated with me is you, you know, you socked away this money. Um, and I think that's really important for people to hear loud and clear because I think that when it's, when it's when the sun shines in this industry, you can't assume it's gonna shine forever. And you've really gotta be smart and put that money away. And also at the same time, I think, Really understand or think about how you can cut your overhead. Because my tendency is when I make more money, I spend more money. Oh yeah, we do. I think, I think that's a real, I think that's a, that's a real danger if you're, if you're, if you're a creative. Because what you should be doing is taking that extra money and just, and just socking it away, um mm-hmm. Knowing that you're probably gonna need it, you know, when there's these downturns, because there are downturns and for many people, especially your age, not, not to make a generalization, but this is the first sort of downturn that you might have experienced in the workforce. And so being able to have that longevity, you know, money equals time is, is really good. So, you know, good on you for, for doing that and good on you for also having this, this other project, you know, this documentary to keep you going. I think that's, that's amazing. So you talked a little bit about some of your inspirations, money, Python, um, what were some of the others?

Baylee:

I mean, I wouldn't call those inspirations. You said good?

Chris:

Is that what you said? That's Oh yeah. Classic going, alright, that's so good.

Baylee:

But that, I, I definitely wouldn't say that's what like, inspired me to be a filmmaker. Um, I, well, I mean, I'm really, I

Chris:

might challenge that. I mean, obviously it's stuck in your, it's stuck in your That's true. You know, it stuck with, you know, that you spit that out when I asked you the question and I think probably because you just got joy outta watching that stuff and you know, that I think, I think it's a good, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great answer. So, um, are you listening to podcasts now or are you, what, what's sort are you watching any series now that are floating your boat or seen a movie lately that we're really excited about?

Baylee:

Oh, yeah. Well, so I'm always listening to podcasts. I would say like, if I'm ever not feeling motivated, like I. Listening to a film podcast is so beneficial for me because I think like anyone that's a creator, to hear other people that are actively creating their own projects, cuz like, it, it's fricking scary and it, like, you're your own, you're your own boss, you're your own worst enemy. And so like, just to hear how other people are handling that is really helpful for me. So Indie Film Hustle is a good one. I really, really like, uh, just shoot it. Mm-hmm. They kind of focus a lot on like more advertising and Yep. Um, like short form content. Mm-hmm. And then, um, I'm actually really bad. Like I, I'm really bad at watching stuff. I don't, I don't watch a lot of movies. Um, I do, I watch a lot of short films and I think that's where I get a lot of my inspiration. Like whenever I'm concepting, I just always go on to Vimeo and. And start, start going through there. Um, some of my short, my favorite short film, I mean, I don't like to say my favorite, but like some short films that have resonated with me is, um, there's one, it's, I think it's called the Back Seat. And, um, I couldn't even, I, I need to

Chris:

find the exact, I've never, I've never seen this. You're gonna have to, yeah, send me the link to that for sure. Y yeah,

Baylee:

I'll track it down. It's not even like, I don't think it, it's just a random, I I don't even think it had like a big festival circuit or whatever. Yeah. But it's just this elderly couple, it's probably like six minutes long and someone is just following them around with their camera and they're just like trying to find their keys and their wallet and go to a doctor's appointment. But it's so good. Like, I really, really like documentaries where you watch'em and you're like, are these incredible actors or are these people that are just. Don't give a flying F about the camera and are just truly being themselves. Yeah. So that's what I, um, I really like about that film. And I actually, I'm doing an interview. Uh, my in-laws are coming into town today and, um, my father-in-law, Jimmy has that personality where you put a camera in front of him and he will just, I mean he's acts like how he would without the camera in front of him. Right. Yeah. And it's just the greatest thing ever. Oh, so good. That's another one of those side projects where I filmed an interview with him a long time ago, and it was actually like he has been struggling with a lot of serious health issues. Mm-hmm. And it was right before he found out about these health issues and now he's like, I mean, we thought he was gonna pass away and he. Has had an amazing come up the last night. Made it it to the other side. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where he is at now. So I'm like, Ooh, I gotta get another interview with him and see what that turns into. So I think I'm gonna do that tonight or tomorrow.

Chris:

Okay. Anybody who tells me that their grandparents are still alive, uh, for example, I always say, you need to go grab your phone. Yes. And just do a quick interview. You know, sit down for an hour and have a conversation because it is so easy to do now and it is something that you'll cherish forever. So you interviewing your father-in-law is freaking awesome. Yeah. Cause and

Baylee:

it's amazing cause they're like, oh, go ahead.

Chris:

I, no go, go, go.

Baylee:

They're like, that generation is. I mean, I could be off with my math, but it seems like they're the last generation that didn't capture their lives. Not that like the generation before them captured it as much as like generations before them. Right. But still, like there's nothing and ever. And that point forward, you know, you're getting into more, more, um, you get what I'm trying to say, historical

Chris:

footage. What are you trying to say? Historical footage,

Baylee:

I think. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just like, it's like, yeah. Capture that, capture that knowledge. Cause it's gonna be gone.

Chris:

Yeah, exactly. And those people are gonna be gone and you're gonna think, why didn't I, you know, because I always say, gosh, my, my mom has passed away. And I always say, I would love just to have one more conversation with my mom. And to have that recording is sort, is is similar to that. So that's super powerful and just speaks to the power of film and art. You know, in general, just re just maintaining that connection is, is, is such a good way of, of thinking about it. So Good, good on you for doing. And who knows where that might lead, you know, I mean, that might spark another idea or be something unto itself that, that really, you know, it's a, it's just, it's gonna be

Baylee:

one of those projects that just sits on my computer.

Chris:

Well, that's the challenge that I have too, because it's so easy to go out and shoot stuff, but then you actually have to bring it in. I know. And make something from it. Right. You know, but, but hey, the first step is going out and, and shooting it. For sure.

Baylee:

Here's, I always laugh at like, oh, I'm sorry. No, go, go, go. When I see people, like I always, I go snowboarding a lot when I see people go pros on their helmets. Like, whatcha gonna do with that footage?

Chris:

Well, even like all the photos you take, right? I mean, I just have like 20,000 photos now I'm supposed to go through and actually like, Curate these now? No, they're just gonna sit there. Mm-hmm. And so here's a question I ask all my podcast guests. What pisses you off the most? Could be anything.

Baylee:

Oh my gosh. Okay. I got it. Yeah. Well, okay. I'm like, uh, super duper schedule oriented. Um, like I, I will schedule out everything in my day, like from when I'm taking my dog for a walk to like, when I am like eating my lunch or when I'm showering or what, like everything. Yeah. Um, and so for the, like for this, for the documentary for example, like our schedule is built out until completion and, um, And so when people like are not respectful to that schedule, or like if something like needs to move, because I can be flexible, I can definitely be flexible, but I, I need constant communication to know like, okay, is this getting done? Are we on track? Yeah. And um, here, like, he already knows this, so it's fine, but one, one person in our project, like who's incredibly talented, his, like, one of his skillsets is not scheduling like how mine is. And we will freaking go head to head. And I think that's a huge learning lesson from this project is that like, just because I work a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else. Is going to work that way. They might work the complete opposite of me. So like, trying to figure out how to be okay with that or how to like get them to be their, their best selves. Mm-hmm. Rather than me just being like, why aren't you doing this?

Chris:

Right. So yeah, collaboration is about that. Right? It's about sort of figuring out A, how you're gonna communicate and b, how you're going to do that with grace and, and, and, and, and be able to work with people that may have a completely different sort of workflow or approach than you do. Mm-hmm. And being able to respect that to a degree. Ti I think people who are late, oh gosh, that drives me crazy. And it, it drives me crazy because it, it no longer is about just them, it's about the lack of respect they have for everyone else. And being a production assistant, for example, on a, on a, on a set. No, you have to be there. You know, there's old saying, you know, five minutes early is 15 minutes late, you know, in the film business. And that's just sort of an interesting adage because there are people relying on you. So yeah, that's, that's a good one. I like that. And also mm-hmm. I also think it speaks to, if you're a content creator, that's gonna be successful, you have to understand how you're gonna spend your time and get projects done. Um mm-hmm. And, and so schedules, like for example, I, this afternoon, I'll sit down and really plan my whole next week. Mm-hmm. And that way I, I love doing that, that way I land Monday morning and I know what I'm doing. You know, I've got, you know, because there's some Monday mornings where I wake up in the, especially in the past, I'll just go, what am I doing now? Why am I on earth? But no, that'll be, that'll be sort of predefined based on, on, on, I'm a firm believer in the schedule, and that's not to mean you can't build space into your schedule. Because I think everyone needs space. Mm-hmm. To just sort of think and Oh yeah. Daydream and blue sky. But I think that that form is really important to, to sort of think out beforehand. So nicely done on that. Yeah. Do you have any, and I do have a, oh, I'm sorry. Go, go jump in. Well,

Baylee:

something you said about having space in your schedule, because, um, I used to, before I adopted this practice of scheduling everything out, you know, I would just have a to-do list. Yeah. And my to-do list would be huge. And at the end of the day, I wouldn't get everything done. And I noticed I was ending every day feeling like I failed and being upset with myself.

Chris:

Not only are you not getting everything done, but there's always something else being added to the bottom of that to-do list. Oh, of course,

Baylee:

right? Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, oh, I'll squeeze that in, like, for sure. And so now I'll look at my to-do list and I'll say, okay, this will probably take me. An hour, I'm gonna schedule an hour and a half so that I can, you know, have some time for brainstorming. Yeah. And then at the end of the day, like my tolu list is realistic and I feel accomplished. And I feel like the more I do this process, the more accurate it's getting. And I also, like from the agency world, learned how to, like, you know, you track your time for everything. Mm-hmm. So even as a freelancer, like I will track everything down to the second, like, if I get up to go to the bathroom, I will pause my timer and like, I can see that's hardcore.

Chris:

Okay. That's where I go. I

Baylee:

know it's intense, it's intense. But, but you know what, it's so helpful because when I budget out projects, like for example, if I'm like, okay, I'm ge being hired, um, to put together this concept doc for this company. I can say, okay, well the last three concept docs I did, I put in, you know, 35 hours. So then it's like, then it makes my budgets more accurate. It is very intense, but it works for me. No,

Chris:

no, for sure. I There is a discussion out there in the freelance world. We're not gonna go down this path right now, but I will send you a really interesting video, YouTube link around billing by the hour versus billing by the project. What you think the value of the project is to the clients. Dang. And it's really interesting cuz it's, it's, it sort of shifts your perspective around that because what billing by the hour can do, the better you are, the faster you get, which in turn means the less you're being paid. I mean, you just, you gotta sort of think about, yeah. So there, there, there's other ways of looking at it, which I think are provocative. I, we, we still, Hey, we're the same way at Moment films. We we're still looking at sort of the hourly. But we are transitioning over to also thinking about, okay, what is the value? What do they, what does the client hope to get from this? Mm-hmm. And what is the value of that to them? And shouldn't we get X percent of that value? It's just an interesting, I'll, I'll send you the videos. It's, it's, it's, it's thought provoking. That doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to do your scheduling, not by any stretch of the imagination. Another thing I do is when I block an hour or two for something that I'm doing, I also define what I want the output to be. Like at the end of those two hours, I'm gonna have X, right? Like the create, I may like that I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a creative brief is going to be the output of, or the, the, the first draft of, you know, why or something. And I don't always hit that, but it does like, keep me focused on, okay, what's the end goal for these next two hours? What am I trying to achieve here? And so that's something that's really helped me. Do you have any favorite, do you have any favorite quotes or in inspirational sayings?

Baylee:

Yes, I do. Well, I always, I have a little, little whiteboard and I'm always writing little things. Yeah. And I, um, uh, I have a new quote that I wrote this week from the great Ted lasso, which is to be curious, not

Chris:

judgmental. Yeah. I love it. Be curious. And I think that like, not judgmental,

Baylee:

let that sink in. Yeah. And I think how I've applied that is, um, for example, like how I said, I'm very schedule oriented and it irks my bones when Yeah, people are respectful as

Chris:

well. It should.

Baylee:

But if I'm being curious about, see if I'm being judgemental, I'm like, they are disrespectful. They. Don't care about. Maybe they don't care about this project, but if I'm being curious, it's like, no. Maybe they, maybe that's not the case. Right. But like, you know, what's their perspective? Yeah. Everybody works in a different way and it's like, oh, here's an example. Something that came up with our project is it was actually, we were going about something with an incorrect process. We had moved on to another phase of the project, but we were keeping our same process. And what we need to do was stop and say, Hey, is, are these the right steps to take? Should we just keep going this way? And how someone in the project was interpreting it is they were kind of holding back. And, you know, maybe not excited for our, for our meetings or whatever. And I was thinking of that as like, ah, they aren't into this project. They don't have respect for me, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But it's like, oh no, actually we just, we're going about things wrong and weren't creating a conducive creative environment.

Chris:

Mm-hmm. No. Right. Because when you pause and sort of think about why, because obviously when you pass judgment, it's immediately a negative. Mm-hmm. But if you say to yourself, wait a minute, what, where's that coming from? How can I learn more about what's, what the real issues are? Not only may it reveal some, not only may it reveal another perspective, but it may also reveal that, you know, what the direction I'm heading in initially that I was so. Hell bent on getting accomplished isn't the right way to go. This per this person Uhhuh has uhhuh, you know, a very valid So I like that.

Baylee:

Yeah, it was a huge learning lesson and I think I'm jumping around a lot, but going back to like, what I've learned from this huge documentary project is that, um, cuz I, one, one of my strengths and weaknesses is I just go, like, I just

Chris:

freaking go what you have to do.

Baylee:

But there's also a lot of, um, benefit to saying like, let's stop and let's think about what we're doing and why we're doing this and if we're doing it in the best way. Yeah. And I don't really do that, but Nicole is, um, my cool collaborator is really, really good at that. Um, and so I've, I'm looking back at this project, like I've gotten us into a lot of tricky scenarios because I just will get too far down. One path or you know, commit to something. Like I literally, I saw an email from 2021 that I wrote to someone, and I was like, yes, the documentary is gonna be releasing next month. That is insane that my brain thought that that was real.

Chris:

Yeah. Well that's, but to be fair, it's that radical optimism that keeps you going. Right? Cause yeah, it's not gonna be until 2033. We don't wanna hear that.

Baylee:

I know, I know. Seriously,

Chris:

my favorite quote of the last couple months has been a Navy Seals quote, which is this slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and what that means, wow. To me, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, what you're talking about, take the time to do it right. To be intentional. And that in turn is gonna be the, at the end of the day, the best way of getting it done. Mm-hmm. As opposed to just like, I gotta get this done, you know, your to-do list. I gotta get this done, I gotta get this done. Mm-hmm. I gotta get this done, I gotta get this done without taking the time to take a step back and understand the context of all these things. And you're on your to-do list and how they really fit into your day and, and in a way that's, that's healthy in, in a way that's productive. Um, cause one way is, the to-do list is sort of controlling you. You're no longer controlling the to-do list. And so it's, it's, it's an interesting, uh, and I think we all fall prey to that. It's, it's for sure. I know that I look at my, I I've, I stopped doing to-do lists except in very, very large buckets. Exactly. For that reason. Um, because I think at the end of the day, the big to-dos that really need to happen mm-hmm. They don't all have to be just Mac, you know, micro defined down to the, you know, so

Baylee:

yeah. How do you, how do you manage that, like, as an agency owner and with like, with your clients being able to set aside the right amount of time to do things slower and think through

Chris:

that? So we do use Asana, which is sort of like a, you know, a, a, a production management tool that, that is sort of mm-hmm. One of many out there. Um, but we do really schedule in the time to, okay, this is gonna be, we, we really try to give ourselves as much time on the front end of projects as possible. Um, so that pre-production phase is so important for us to really think about, is this really the right direction? Um, is this really the way we should be going? Hey, let's throw a couple ideas up on the wall and think if there's something you know better. Mm-hmm. Because I think in our rush to get things done, we sometimes just think A to B is the shortest distance between two points. And yes, it might be the shortest, but it might not be the best. And so we do challenge ourselves around building in time to really, you know, there, there's, in Bellingham, there's a literally a coffee. A coffee, great coffee shop, right? Like I'm looking at it right now called make worth. And so we'll go down and, you know, brainstorm sessions and then, you know, I love that. And so things like, things like that. But it's hard because, you know, you gotta make sure that a, it gets done. Mm-hmm. B, the client's not waiting around going, Hey, where is this again? You know? And so there's definitely a tricky balance there and it's, it's one I think that, that we, we struggle with all the time. But yeah, it's pretty, don't get me wrong, when we get to the Asana level, there's like tasks, lists for every single project from pre-production all the way through to final delivery, you know, that are super, super micro. But once you sort of have that established, then you, it's sort of running itself in a way. It's, you know, it's a little bit automated. You're not like, you know, it's reminding you to do X, Y, and Z and you're not always, so, you know, you, you are being, you know, you do have some structure around what, and also we've done it for a long time, so how do, how you work through the process has been time tested. So that's one way of doing it. But there's so many different ways. I've got two more questions for you. Okay. What advice would you give someone who says, I wanna be a filmmaker, or I wanna be a writer, or, I wanna get into the, I wanna be a content creator, you know, a i I be a painter. You know, be Potter, Potter,

Baylee:

pottery. Pottery, Harry Potters Potter.

Chris:

I like it. What, what advice would you give that person who is inspired to sort of pursue, not necessarily the traditional path, but do something that fulfills their creative, their creative muse. Sure.

Baylee:

Well, two things. I mean, the first is just like always, always, always be making as much content as you can. Cuz like we said earlier, it's like every project you're learning more. Um, and then with all of these creative industries, like it's really, I mean, from my experience, it's all about who you know. And I think that I've, I'm grateful for a lot of the opportunities that I've had and the people that I've come in contact with. Networking is huge I have this Google sheet and I've had it for probably like 15 years. Um, and I have a tab that's, uh, you know, I have a tab that's dps, that's art directors, that's hair and makeup artists, that's people that own companies that might need a video someday. People that own agencies, whatever. And so every time I meet someone, I add them to this. Google sheet. And then I'm just constantly following up with them and I have, I have it in my calendar of, okay, you know, this person said that they need a director for something. Like, I'm gonna hit'em up, you know, I'm gonna hit'em up tomorrow. And then, okay, they said they don't have anything, follow up with them. I'm gonna mark that in my calendar two months from now. And that's proven to be like, as, I feel like staying top of mind for people is huge. Um, so that's, that's proven to be very successful.

Chris:

And that's incredible, by the way. Thank you.

Baylee:

Yeah, thanks. I mean, it's not, it's not hard. Any, anyone can do it.

Chris:

And so my last podcast guest was Elena Stca. She's an independent filmmaker. She film just got done filming a short film called Salty Siren, um, that's gonna be releasing here in the next couple months. And she wanted to, um, ask you this question. In your current or past productions, was there ever a moment or event that took you completely by surprise?

Baylee:

Ooh. Okay. Um, I don't, huh? Okay. Sorry. I gotta think about It's ok. You're

Chris:

good. I

Baylee:

dunno, I'm not, nothing's like coming to mind of something that totally took me by surprise, but there's been moments where I've really thought back about them and like how I wish I would've done something different. Because there's one moment where I'm like, I still don't know what I should have done in this moment, you

Chris:

know? Yeah. Let's explore that one. Okay.

Baylee:

Um, so there's a gal that, uh, a young gal that. Uh, I've used as a PA quite a few times, and she's awesome. She's a go-getter, great attitude, and we've kind of developed a relationship where like, you know, I, I've feel like hopefully, you know, I can help her with things and whatnot. Um, and it, we were doing a, a Amazon promo video, and the verbiage was like, so technical. The script of course, got changed the night before the shoot, and the talent was having a, a really hard time with the lines and it was like we're all jammed into this small house. He was clearly getting very frustrated. I was trying to help him work through it. Um, this isn't a part of the story, but in hindsight, I think I could have. Done a better job at that. Um, but then I, I went up to the, the client was like, Hey, like, come talk. So we, I was talking with the client trying to figure out how to work through this, and the girl, um, like came up to me while I was with the client and started like giving suggestions and, you know, it just does something that, so you were the

Chris:

director, is this true? Yes. And who is this? Who is this other woman?

Baylee:

Oh, she was a PA and then Uhhuh with the client. Yeah. And um, classic. It was like classic know. I know. It was so tough and um, and I honestly just froze and I feel like it was this huge internal conflict where, Because I try to adopt the mi the mindset of like, you know, of course, even though someone's a pa like that doesn't mean that they're, they have bad ideas. Like, I remember being a p pa and like thinking of an idea and being like, I feel like that could work. You know? Yeah. But of course you don't know the whole context of the project, so I don't wanna shut someone down just because of their position, or just because, like, they shouldn't be talking to the director or whatever. But on the other hand, it was like a very precarious situation. Like that should not have happened. Yeah. Um, and I, you know, especially when the, the shoot wasn't going great, I wanted to instill confidence in the client. Um, and then it just, you know, a broad awareness of like, okay, I am, I am a director and I am getting more and more opportunities and that are, you know, bigger budget and whatnot. And I think I struggle with you always wanna keep everyone happy, you know? And what I should have done is brought her to the side and been Hey, I appreciate your ideas, but like, that was really not appropriate. You need, you know, like, that was a great time. An oppor Yeah, it was an opportunity where I could have supported her and I could have taught her. And also like, but my, I, but my ego got in the way and I was like, oh my God, this client is gonna think that I'm getting advice from a pa. And like, right. That's just such a immature, like, ego. So what happened

Chris:

thing to think, what did, what did you do? Um,

Baylee:

nothing. Like, I, I didn't say anything to the girl because I didn't want her to feel shut down and I didn't wanna upset her. And the client, the client, like we had a fine relationship. So like, it was, it was, it was fine. But um, yeah, I think it was just one of those situations where you'd look back on and you're like, that was a loaded situation, you know?

Chris:

Did you have a first ad on that, on that set?

Baylee:

Um, did we have a first ad? No, not an official first ad.

Chris:

Yeah. That then. Yeah, I could see why that would definitely be a struggle. Um, if I had a first ad on this set, I would say, Hey, um, can you come over here and talk to,

Baylee:

that's what I need. I need someone I know. And it's funny, I've learned that this past year. I was like, okay, I would really like to start working with an ad, um,

Chris:

needs assistant director, by the way, for those not in the know. Yeah. Yeah,

Baylee:

because, and that's something like, I think for anyone, if you have, I'm trying to come to terms with this if it's like, okay, one of my weaknesses is very much like, I wanna keep everyone happy and it gets me into a bad situation. So is that something that I should like? I mean, obviously I need to work on it, but also can I just like hire an ad?

Chris:

You can outsource that for sure. You can. Yeah. I highly recommend it because as you, as you know, an ad's job is to keep things on schedule and, and in part on, you know, on budget and scope, um, to a degree. But certainly on schedule, that's the primary function of the ad. And so, and also just communicate with the crew. And so to have that, to have that person there would've might've helped. That, that's a good one. That's a good one, I think. No real right answer per se, but, you know, to see another day, which is, yeah.

Baylee:

And I guess question, well, it's, uh, something about myself, I'll, I'll just continue talking about myself, but then a question for you. That's why we're here, you're here to talk about you all about you. Cause you said, you said you like hierarchy. And I think I, I really like to know my role and, but I think I have a problem where like, if I'm in a role, I will not go beyond that role because I don't wanna step, not that I won't go above and beyond, but I, I will not step on anyone's toes like to a fault. Mm-hmm. And so like, how do you, how do you, someone that likes hierarchy, like how do, how do you handle that of like, For, so for someone, let's say that they're, they're in a position, they're a pa and they're like, well, I wanna move up. But then also, like, you don't, like that is bad. You don't wanna step on people's toes and go outta line on a set.

Chris:

I think there's, there's two approaches, well, both in conjunction with one another. One is, do you need any help? Is probably one of the best things you can say on a set. And if a person doesn't want help or doesn't need help, um, um, then you'll know. Right. But if they do need help mm-hmm. There you are, you've, you've accomplished that. Um, I remember being, you know, especially as you move up, these roles become more and more defined. And as you know, and, and people. Are very protective of that. And there's also union rules and all the rest that you have to be really aware of. So if, like you're picking up, they're called stingers in, I'm saying this not for your edification, but for the audiences. A stinger is, the film business has really weird little, little, we call, uh, closed pins, you know, uh, C 40 sevens we call extension cord stingers. But I once saw a production assistant like pick up a stinger, an extension cord, and, you know, wanting to be helpful. Mm-hmm. No, you do not touch the electrician's gear, you know, the grip, the g and e, the grip and electric you, that's not, you know, and so yes, you've gotta be really careful around that. But I think if you do ask, do you need any help? How can I help you? Mm-hmm. And just lean into that. That's one, that's one way of, of doing it. The other thing is, I think it's important to be able to say to people when you're asked a question, if you don't know the answer, just say, I don't know. Oh, yeah. I, I, I really get upset when I can tell, like, the person doesn't really know, but try, it's okay if, you know, we're not, there's a, we're faced with a problem and we don't have a solution. I need to hear the, I don't know, early rather than late so that we can, you know. Yeah. So that would, that would be my advice, uh, working around that. But it's a, it's a delicate dance, you know, as you start work. I've worked with the same team, luckily for a long time. Now it's becoming more about me. Thank God the light's finally shining on me.

Baylee:

Take it away, you

Chris:

know, so we sort of have a shorthand for, you know, how we work together and we will help each other out. But if you're stepping onto the, a set for a first time, for the first time, or you're working with the team that you're unfamiliar with, um, it's especially important that you ask, you know, Hey, you need help. I think that's the attitude that that really gets people far, I think, in the, on a set especially. And it's obvious to me that you've done a really successful job of doing that. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate it. I mean, getting a film to the finish line, and I know you're approaching that, I hope, I think.

Baylee:

August, we're releasing in August. That's awesome.

Chris:

We have

Baylee:

to

Chris:

August come hell or high water

Baylee:

August. Look

Chris:

You're moving mountains. You're bringing people together, you're bringing gear together, you're bringing schedules together. You're bringing money together, you're bringing, you know, you're aligning time and, and, and vision. And it's, it's incredible, you know, and so congrats to you for you for, for doing that. And I'm excited to, to hear about what the next one is too. So, cause I know you probably got a few ideas through it. Oh, I do.

Baylee:

Yeah, I do those projects that have just been sitting there. Yeah. There you go.

Chris:

I love it. But thanks again for joining us. I really, really appreciate it. Have a great weekend, and thank you so much for spending the time with Creative State and we'll, we'll, we'll, uh, we'll be talking soon. Yeah,

Baylee:

thank you. I'm really grateful for the opportunity. This is the last time. You bet.

Chris:

Talk soon. Bye-Bye.

Baylee:

Bye.

And so ends another episode of creative state. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to visit our sponsor creator deals.com. But even more importantly, keep making the good stuff. See you soon.