Creative State | The Brett Smith Episode #6

In this episode of Creative State, director Brett Smith gives some real practical advice on what it took to get his indie feature film freedom's path in the can. Advice you can use no matter what kind of creative you are. He also talks about the power of perseverance, the magic of collaborating with other beautiful creatives...

And sending over 4,300 emails to fulfill his dream.

Give it a listen. 

© 2023 Moment Film Co, LLC

Transcript

0:03

Just when you thought it was safe to boogie in the streets. Along comes creative state at the intersection of art and business. In this episode of creative state director, Brett Smith gives some real practical advice on what it took to get his indie feature film freedom's path in the can. Advice you can use no matter what kind of creative you are. He also talks about the power of perseverance, the magic of collaborating with other beautiful creatives. And sending over 4,300 emails. But first a word from our sponsor creator deals. If there's one thing, all of us creators need out there to do battle in the creative economy. It's the tools for success, and that's why we've partnered with creator deals.com. The number one destination, to discover the best deals. Out there from Adobe creative suite to the best desk chairs, to all the goodies, we need to make the good stuff. So we can put a dent in the universe, check out creator deals.com, empowering creators everywhere. And now let's get busy.

Chris: 1:20

Hey, this is Chris Donaldson with Creative State. I'm here with Brett Smith, the director of a movie called Freedom's Path. And the reason why I love Brett is because he came into my old company 12 years ago. Wanting to shoot a little scene from a script he wrote. And one of the people I was working with a lot of the time and still work with a lot of, with today is Chris Koser, a, a really talented cinematographer and he wanted to, to, to grab Chris and they were gonna go out and shoot this thing. And they did. And I just, I, I wasn't there, but I remember just hearing how it was rainy and cold and miserable. But still one of the best experiences of their lives. And they went and shot this scene from

Brett: 2:03

the movie that has

Chris: 2:04

now a feature film called Freedom's Path, which just released in over a hundred theaters nationwide. A M C Regal picked up by Byron Allens, uh, H B C U Go Streaming platform. Just incredible. my first question is this, what does the word perseverance mean to you?

Brett: 2:26

Oh my goodness. Uh, holding on when you feel like you can't hold on any longer. I think, honestly, yeah. I, I, especially as it relates to this film, and I think, honestly, it's interesting because what this film has really been teaching me over the, over the, more than a decade I've been working on it, is. And there's so much symmetry with life, honestly. And, and I've actually been applying a lot of that in my life because it's been, yeah, perseverance, just, just sticking with it when everything seems to be going against you, when it's not easy to stick with it, uh, when you don't have, you know, things aren't cushy and, and happy and wonderful, it's, it's still kind of putting in the work and, and one step in front of the other. Not, not trying to do too much, but just sticking with it. I love that.

Chris: 3:12

So basically, You had this goal to make a film, but you really broke it down into like, I'm just going to put one foot in front of the other. I'm just gonna do the work, and if I keep doing that work, I'm gonna get there. I think that's such a valuable lesson for, for ma you know, artists, makers, filmmakers, writers. It's just continuing to put in the work. But I also know on the back end of that, you, you, not only did you direct this thing, but I know that you were really responsible for pulling together some of the financing, which we can talk about later. But I know that that was also just a, a, a, a real lesson in perseverance, cuz I know. At least legend has it. You just made hundreds of calls, reached out to hundreds

Brett: 3:59

of people. Thousands. Thousands.

Chris: 4:02

Thousands. Yeah. You know, to to, to make that happen. And so I want to know how you approach the word no. When someone says no to you, what is the framework that

Brett: 4:15

you applied to that word? I'll just say first and foremost, I mean, you know, this is not, I'm not some story where it's like, oh yeah, I heard no, and I just kept going. I mean, it hurts like anytime when you have something that you're passionate about, that you want more than anything. Right. That, that you're, you're just so driven and motivated by that, that first, no. And then the next 10 nos and the next a hundred nos. I mean, they hurt, like the one, the thing I hate more than anything is Oh, uh, it's a respectful pass. Like those respectful pass. I like if, if I could, you know? Yeah, yeah. I just, I P T S D with those words, but, um, like, yeah. Yeah. Awful. But, uh, I, yeah, I mean, I think for me it was, it was just a matter of being so ignorant and naive to the process. Being so ignorant and naive to the process that, you know, you realize you kind of don't know what you don't know, and it's just the passion driving you. So I, I had to turn it into a game though. Ultimately what I did is, you know, growing up, um, I would go visit my grandparents. They lived in, in, uh, in Scottsdale, Arizona, and they lived near a golf course. And one of the things I would love to do growing up, my mom would do it with us. You know, she did it when she was younger. It's, we would go when the golf course closes at like five, six o'clock in the evening, and we would just go look for golf balls in, in, in the, in the brush, like off, off the greens. And we'd have this game where, how many golf balls could you find? And we would spend two, three hours out there just looking for golf balls. And they were super hard to find. And we'd have this long stick, this pole that you could go in and, you know, get him deep into cactus and things like this. And honestly it became this process of, you know, I would spend hours out there to maybe find 10 golf balls, but every single one, it's like an Easter egg hunt, you know, is this amazing thing. I, I literally had to get to a, honestly, the first snow I got, I had to get to this place where it was almost like looking for those golf balls. An Easter egg hunt where, Hey. Okay. My first fir, my first response was when I sent out an email. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a line producer was. I didn't know. I, I thought there was just producers just gave you money. I thought that was, I didn't know anything about the filmmaking process. Quickly learned that line producers are effectively, you know, they break things down. They're like accountants. They, they do your budgets and schedules. Um, so anyway, the first, no. Legitimate, no. I got, I actually sat back. At first I was upset and I go, wait. That email was so legitimate that they warranted to respond to it, right? A legitimate person in the industry that finances films, he didn't just, you know, throw it in the trash or, or say, oh, it's spam. Like, I actually got, hey, Unfortunately, it's not for me, but thanks. I was like, wow, okay. So that's a thing. And then it really got to a place over time, I cultivated this, this almost competitive nature of, I don't care, it doesn't even matter about these individuals. It's if a hundred emails go out, I'm gonna get 10 responses. And of the 10 responses, there's gonna be a. You know, maybe two of them, they're gonna wanna really hear more information. And then I got to about every five to 700 emails that went out. I'd get one request for a script, and of those, maybe 10% of those people actually read the script and got back to me. So I think it was just breaking down a process of. It's a numbers game and my people are out there. Like I had to tell myself, there are, I believe in this enough. I know there are other people that will believe in it, and therefore it's not a matter of a personal thing anymore. It's, I want to find the people that are right for me, right for the story. And they're out there. It's just how many can I get on a day to get closer to those people? So it ended up being about 4,000. Three over over 4,300 emails went out.

Chris: 7:35

Man, that is incredible. I mean, that's a, that's, that's just, uh, but again, you know, searching for the golf balls looking and it's not there, but now you know it's not there. And so every No, in a way Got you. Closer to the Yes. And, you know, I've got a marketing background and so what I'm thinking about is conversions, right? If I, if I do X I'm gonna get y. And after historically, you can really start seeing the trends and knowing that if you send out a hundred emails, just like you said, you're gonna get, this small percentage of people who are gonna reply a smaller percentage yet that are actually gonna read the script, a smaller percentage even yet they're gonna want us, learn more after that. So,, just an incredible, incredible story. And again, coming back to that word, perseverance hat tip to you. Brett Smith. So how did you get started? Tell me a little bit about what your background is and what like lit your fire

Brett: 8:28

around this story. Yeah, I mean, getting started in just filmmaking in general. I was never one of those kids that, that knew he wanted to be a director or filmmaker. I grew up playing sports and that was my baseball was my passion. Any, any sport, anything was my passion and. And played that, played that for quite a while. Um, late in later into life. But, uh, it was, but I always had a camera. Me and my friends would always goof around doing these like satire spoofy videos, you know, Lord, the Rings, Braveheart. We would just make these fun knockoffs and we'd just have a blast doing it. But then as I got later into high school, I. Again, I never took video production. I think I was too afraid of it cuz there were always those other kids. Those other kids were the ones that were known as like the Spielbergs of the school. And I just didn't ever feel worthy. And so it was just, we would just kind of have our own little thing that would quietly secretively do these, these fun videos for with ourselves. And then it got to this place. You know, maybe junior, senior year where I was wanting to tell stories with a little more oomph to them. And you know, my friends were like, I don't wanna cry on camera. And I'm like, come on dude. Just one tear. Like, we'll, fake it, you know? Put water in your eye. What do we have to do? Like poke you? I don't know. And, uh, and so I naturally kind of, this, it was this natural progression of this passion came about, not so much for making movies. I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a. I wish I was a cinephile and someone that could just talk for days about cinema history and tell you how much I love it. I do love it.

Chris: 9:48

Right. He just has this in encyclopedia of knowledge, right?

Brett: 9:51

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like, I respect it and I love it a ton. I, I love movies Sure so much, but for me, the, the process to make a film is so significant. It's so much time and energy and sacrifice. I am more of a story. I could call myself a storyteller more than like a, a writer director. I think I like, I don't know if I even find myself worthy enough to say that, but I, it's all about the story. It's, there are certain stories that I can't not tell, like it really is to the point of, I. The only way I can relate it is, is you know, when you're hungry, you know you have to eat, and when you're tired, you know you have to sleep. That is literally the level of compulsion that I feel when there's a, a story that inspires me and moves me. It's not, it's, it's no longer about, oh, this would be cute and fun and I would like to do it, but it's like, no, no, I, I can't, not, like, I'm willing to go and I'm willing to go and spend 12 hours a day. Looking for one potential person that could be a financier based off of what I'm like, you know, searching, so doing things that I would never 4,300 plus emails. Right? That right. Yeah. Cause that's not, that's not me normally. Like I'm, I'm definitely, I, I'm, I'm very outgoing, love people, but I'm not, I'm, I, I'm not gonna stick myself out there, but I, I tend to do that when that story comes along, you know? And so whether that's short films or features, so I would say freedoms path and, and that I guess, transitions into how I got into filmmaking was. You know, a very, again, very natural process of, oh, I'll help a friend with a wedding video, or I'll do this and, and it, you know, my, my editing skills got honed and, and, and so I was doing a lot of editing work or, you know, little video production stuff that would pick up for, you know, mom and pop businesses. And, but it was always with the goal of telling that story that moved me, which the, the first major one was Freedoms Path. Um, yeah. And then where'd that

Chris: 11:35

idea come from? Tell us a little bit about the story itself and the genesis story behind the story, and The writing process? Yeah, just go into

Brett: 11:44

that a little bit. Yeah. Buckle up, buckle up, sit back, relax. It's gonna be a little bit. Freedom's path is the story of a young man who wants to go off and be some war hero during the American Civil War 1860s, um, and gets to war only to realize that he's terrified of it, right? The, the sights, the sounds, the smells, everything. So in his first skirmish, he actually, uh, Uh, desserts. The battle injures himself to escape capture, and in the process of injuring himself really, really gets messed up pretty good. And is indie of rescue and, and rescue comes by way of these free men looking to join up with the Union Army deep in the south. And, and it really kind of at that point becomes this story of this free man and this soldier overcoming. Preconceived notions and just built in prejudices that each of them kind of may have based off of their own experiences to become brothers and friends and, and ultimately family. And that's, that's the gist of the story. Where it comes from. For me, honestly, it comes from a collection of so many things. I just love history so much. I love American history in particular, and I think. As a, like an overarching gener, uh, generality would be the, this idea of a brand new country, like less than 90 years old, predicated on liberty and freedom, and yet it denies a subset of that country denies, you know, a portion of that country's denying freedom to a large population of people. And not only that, but they're, they're in bondage. They're, they're enslaved. There's so much there. And, and so then again, the thought is, okay, who would, in a country like this, the first of its kind, the first Democratic Republican, however many thousands of years since, you know, since what, like the, the, the Greeks. And, and, and then you have, you have this, and then you with the people enslaved or in bondage who would recognize and appreciate and want freedom more than anybody else, right? The people that are, that are prevented from it. And so that was a big thing. Another big element. For me was, uh, I'd never seen a story where, where I'd never seen a film, I should say, where it was the, the, it was always the black character in need of help or rescue. In some ways, we want to flip that narrative where it's our, our white union soldier who's in need of rescue, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. And it comes by way of our freed, uh, for these free characters in the film. And then I think the, the last one, which was. Super excited about was, it's the first narrative film to center around free African Americans. And there were, I didn't know this, but there were over 250,000 free African Americans living in the South leading up to and during the Civil War, which is more free African Americans than lived in the North. And I thought, that is a significant number of people. How have we never talked about this, this in American, you know? And, and for me, I never learned about it in, in history. I haven't seen it in film. I haven't. Read it in books. And so that was, that was a big thing. But I would say the genesis of the film really came when I was six years old, I saw Disney's version of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain with Elijah Wood in it. And I was six living up in the Pacific Northwest as far away from the Mississippi as you can get. And you know, our American history is Lewis and Clark and then indigenous people effectively. Um, But this, this adventure, I was like, oh my gosh, I, I was born in the wrong era. I should be on horseback. I literally took like a, a wood like crate and like, thought I was gonna float the Mississippi, like legitimately. And, and, but it was, it wasn't until a couple years later that I really, when I was a little bit older, that I couldn't quite articulate why I loved it so much. It was this relationship between this arrogant, naive, ignorant kid, Huck going off on some grand adventure, and he had his own stuff he was dealing with, with, with his family and stuff. He, you know, really rough upbringing, but this ignorant, arrogant little kid. And then you've got Jim, this runaway slave trying to get to his family. This grown man has to deal with this kid and that relationship. There's such something, such an emotional connection for me in that, that really, that really compelled me on this film that that's such a, that's such a timeless story. Huck Finn. And I really wanted elements of that to, to play in Freedom's path. And then the last one, the second one, there's a million, but I'd say the second one will be this book called The Red Badge of Courage. Of course. And yeah. And it's this, uh, for those that don't know it, yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I think John Houston did a film in like the fifties. Yeah. And my dad showed it to me. And, and I, I'm used to seeing John Wayne war movies loved him, you know, just. Patriotic, like raw blooded, like hoorah, movies. They're just fun, you know, fun. but the Red Badge of Curry was the first film that ever portrayed war in a non. Romantic way. Exactly. It's just, it's just, it's monotonous, it's long and, and that, and P T S D and these elements, I really wanted to, and that's not something that's, that's new to any audience viewer today, but in the context of the Civil War, when you're lining up 50 yards away from somebody and you're seeing things and, and people aren't, you know, today on battlefields, you've got medics and you've got medicine, and you've got helicopters and you've got capacity to move people in and out quickly. And the, and the weapons are, are precise. Whereas in the Civil War, you're talking about agony and hours and days of suffering and, and everything that comes along with that, what these soldiers went through and experienced, you know, in a, in a given scrimm or so. I, I was really interested in also wanting to touch on that. So I'll, I'll stop rambling just for a sec. Sec. That's the gist. That's amazing. So how old are you now? Uh, 35.

Chris: 16:52

So literally 29 years. You're, you watched this thing, you, you Huck Finn at six, uh, freedoms path, uh, 29th later, man. So that's the journey right there. Incredible. Nice. Yes. Um, what was the first film that just really blew your mind? Like, I understand the red badge of courage, but I mean, you just said, holy morally, that's what I, that's what I need to do.

Brett: 17:24

Yeah, I, I mean in terms of, in terms of the one that made a crazy impact on me, it was, again, at six years old. I don't know what it was, about six, I saw Jurassic Park. Okay. Yeah. And that one, and I saw it in the theaters and I was thinking back,

Chris: 17:35

are the second ok. I've, I've done six of these and two people have mentioned Jurassic Park. There you go.

Brett: 17:40

Really? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah, it's, I don't know what it was. It's, it's like I had never. The thing about my kids now, I, I don't think I'd ever let them watch Jurassic Park if it came out and then they were six. But hey, you know, kudos to my parents. I was a tough kid, I guess. I don't know. That's right. But no, but yeah, it was, there was such a, That was so just magical. I mean, it was such a, it was such a new world and the graphics, it was such a spectacle. It was so, so much so, yeah. And then I'd say that's, that's, that's a big one. And then honestly, randomly, I'll throw in another one more, in a more contemporary one would be, uh, mud. The film by Jeff Nichols. Yeah. In, uh, 2012. That one, I don't know what it was. That one really inspired me in a lot of ways just because of the style and the feel. And I, you know, seeing Matthew McConaughey do something. Turning an actor. Very different. Yeah. So different. Yeah. For me, so I was like, that was pretty inspiring to say, Hey, this guy just did this. You know? No one had, you know, he had, he had done some other great films, some like low budget films, but that was a, that was a big inspiration as well. Nice man.

Chris: 18:41

How many drafts of the script did you go through it? Do you

Brett: 18:44

think You were 86 80? I just, I just counted the other day. 86. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris: 18:51

Unreal. What do you think changed the most?

Brett: 18:56

Through that process. Oh man, you know, I sat down and I don't say this in any way of like, oh, I did this cuz it was garbage, you know, but it was, it was a six week process to get the original script done and that doesn't mean it's good. And then it was years after that, I think, honestly, I. I think, I don't know if there's anything specific that changed a lot other than it, I mean, a lot of things changed, but it was of course, I think, I think something I really would encourage other writers to do if they're listening is take your time on it. Right? Because I think having the years of just, it was, it was just a constant tightening and finessing, and again, my obsessive nature at anything I was watching, anything was happening. I was like, oh, that word, that's an interesting word, like weaving things in and uh, But in terms of one specific thing, I would probably just say the flow of language, honestly. Mm-hmm. Like really wanting to get that so it felt authentic. So it felt real. I think that was, that was one of the, it's a period film and so anything I didn't, I, I wanted to walk the line of having a modern audience understand what's being said. So mixing in. Modern language where it's necessary and needed, but then, but really letting you sit in areas where you may not understand some things that are being said. But that's okay cuz hopefully you're getting the gist of it. Yeah. So say language. Language and how did,

Chris: 20:12

how did you.

Brett: 20:13

Just the, the flow and how, how it feels.

Chris: 20:15

Well, you know, you're talking about making it authentic, right? And so there's, there's, you know, some, there's some historians out there who, who, you know, oh my God. The language was, I mean, did you run it by some people who actually have that expertise or was it just a field that you had having read things like K Finn? I mean,

Brett: 20:32

tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was definitely multi-pronged. I, I, I told myself early on, I said, I'm not gonna read anybody else's stuff. Like, I'm not gonna read some historian's book. I'm not, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna read only firsthand accounts like I, I have to. And so I. I'll go quick through this, but there's a, I found this amazing resource called the, uh, from, from the Library of Congress called the Federal Writers Project. And what they did is in the 1930s and forties, the US government sent like a couple hundred interviewers down into the south and the southeast. To interview the last living generation of individuals who lived under bondage, under slavery. And what's amazing is at the time of these interviews, some of these people are as old as 107 years old. So these people weren't like two years old at the end of the Civil War in 65. Yeah. These people were like 30 plus. Yeah, yeah. Like a total, a total lifetime. And and what they did is they recorded these interviews. When they typed them out, they're sitting there listening to'em, typing them out. They recorded them phonetically, so you're not, they're not editing for proper English, and so you're getting their, you're getting the accent, you're getting, you're getting sentence structure. You're getting a flow. And then even some of them lugged around these massive suitcases that had like the first audio recording machines in them. So you actually have actual audio recordings. It's open sourced, they have it broken down by state. And I, that was a, I spent weeks in that thing and, and the level of depression that came from that, like honest oppression was. It was heavy because some of the stories are amazing and fun and, and just slice of life with no, you know, just memories that these individuals had. Some of them are so heavy that, you know, 12 years a slave feels like, feels like milk toast compared to, you know, some of these just. Everyday individuals. And so that was, that was, I think the biggest thing was No. And what was that project called again? The Federal Writer's Project. The Federal Writer's Project at the Library of Congress. Yes, open source. You can just search Federal, federal Writer's Project, library of Congress, and you can just pull up countless interviews and it's, it's amazing. So I, I really leaned into that and then wanting to trust myself. I'm probably not any different than any other writer when I, when I'm writing. I'm acting it out. I'm saying it, I'm, does it feel right? Does it sound right? You know, and just how does it flow? Like really what is, as much of, it's, there's a cadence almost of speech, right? There's almost a movement, a dance to it. And if it, if something just wasn't hitting a right rhythm, I knew I had to change it and then even on set, right? It was never 86 straps, but it's never done. Never done, yeah. Yeah, it's never done. You're, you're talking to the actors and it's like, Like, how do we fix this? How do we make this better? Or, you know, we're just, you're just, and you're filling it out on day, on the day of, sometimes the actors are just like, they throw something in. I remember RJ who plays the role of Kit, our, our free man, uh, really hero of the film, heart of the film. We were doing some take and he threw something in there and he, it was some word and, and I, and it was only one take. We did like four takes. I was like, wait, wait, I stopped. And I was like, what was that? What? And he thought he was in trouble. I was like, what did you just say? And he is like, I don't even know. I was like, can we play that back? And, and he and he, we played it back and it was just, it was so real and I was like, just do that again. Like, so let's do that again with coverage. So, little things I think just, you know, just honestly a, a, a lot of it on feel. And then I tried to save myself from the historians of this era because you've got, I. I knew going into this, if it's historical fiction, even though it's steeped in plaza, everything's historical reality. Everything you see likely did happen. Um, but you wanna, I wanna stay away from dates and specific locations because they would try and eat me alive and I wasn't playing that game. So like, know the history and I wanted to like, be everything with within the sphere of reality, but I didn't want to pin myself to a very specific location and time. So when you

Chris: 24:09

were young and you started to go down this creative path, um, did you get support from your family? Did you feel like, you said you had like a little gang of, of, of filmmakers that, you know, in high school that were making films, you know, and then when you graduated

Brett: 24:23

high school,

Chris: 24:25

You know, you went, did you go to college? Tell me a little bit about that

Brett: 24:28

experience. Yeah. I didn't go to, I went to a year of community college. I barely, I barely, barely, barely graduated high school. I mean, I just snuck through. I was done with, with some family stuff. Um, yeah, that lost, lost in the family and that really threw me for a loop. And so got through, got through high school, so that was, that was good. Um, love, I love learning, but I think it was just that stage of life. It was, it was just tough. Sure. And so, um, got into, did community college for a year. And I don't say I dropped out because I didn't, I didn't like run away like I did. I was dropping out, but I kind of, from there, I kind of started, you know, getting into video production and taking it a little more seriously, looking for work that way. And that's kind of where it came. So, no, no. Traditional film school, I did go to, The University of Washington had like a night class. It was a continuing education course, like one, one night a week or two nights a week. I did that for a year, like a certificate program, but I really did that not to learn, but to try and connect with other filmmakers because there's not a big community or there wasn't at the time. And so that was more of just, I think putting myself out there and trying to get to know other filmmakers. But, and then to your question on support, definitely had support, I mean, I mean, you know, luckily, you know, I lost my mom when I was 11. Totally supportive. She was totally supportive up until that age. And then my dad is just, you know, just a, a saint of a human being and, and is, you know, really kind of carried, carried a lot of weight and to allow me to do a lot of things that I've done in terms of just, just support and always being there, you know, always being a ear to listen to. So, absolutely. I think that's, As a general support, as a, as a theme. I think there's zero chance this film is made without like my wife or my dad or my close friends and, you know, just people like you. Right. And hand crank at the time that, that supported and were there where it's like you're climbing a mountain and, and you realize pretty early on, like people are carrying you up that mountain more than you're walking it, you know? And, and I, and I really did feel that, but other people, every time I fell off that horse, I didn't have to pick myself up up. They would pick me up and put me on there even if I didn't wanna get back on it. So it was, I think support is, if it's, if it's not family, if it's friends, find someone, find people and lean on those people and talk to them and be open with them because the arts are so hard. I mean, there's no getting, it's just brutally hard. Cuz you've got passion and business trying to, trying to intersect. Yeah. And it's just brutal. It's just brutal. Yeah.

Chris: 26:47

I think that's really interesting. You know, I mean, Film especially is such a collaborative effort. You know, when you, when you're talking about like on the set, just a team of people collaborating, but then there's also that collaboration that's off the set, which really gets you to the set in the first place, which is that family support system, which is that, that that friend network, which is finding those people who have the same and share the same passions as you do. So you pick up the phone, you start making the, your, your call. You start sending out your 4,000 emails, you know, tell us, what advice would you give the filmmaker now, it's interesting to me because what you said earlier really struck a chord with me. You didn't know what you didn't know. You are naive. Part of that naivete to me, is really a blessing. Because people will tell you, you can't do that. You can't just email that guy and you can't do this. You can't do that. Come, that's not the way it's done. You gotta go talk to their agent. You gotta talk to the assistant. When in fact you just went ahead and jumped the gatekeeper.

Brett: 27:54

This is the magical question. I've, I've definitely got some advice. I've definitely got some things that I found that worked. And I would say, you know, first, and you know, there's a million ways to do it. And I would say the more traditional of the route you try and go, the more you're going to run into red tape and it's not gonna work. At least that's how it worked for me. So like the more people told me to go, um, the classic route, right? Go get some huge actor, go get some huge producer, go get it to the studio, get it to the production companies. It, so I'm not gonna, I would never say to someone, don't do that, because if you can do that, oh my goodness, like. Amazing kudos. Like, I'll give you a huge hug and, and wish I was you, you know, but, but for me it was the more I went off onto some untrodden path, the more I found success because I was doing things that, and reaching out to people that they otherwise were not getting reached out to in the same way. So, um, the number one thing you have to do, in my opinion, because that you mentioned perseverance at the very outset of this thing is. You have to have a story that you absolutely believe in. I, that's first because that's what's gonna drive you, you know what I mean? It's, you know, it's not a if, if you wanna just raise money, go raise money for business or do something else where you can actually, you know, make a ton of money and, and, and be very successful. And, and that way, if it's the arts, you have to have that story that you can't not tell, cuz that's going to be your reason and you have to have a reason. So maybe that's philosophical, but I'd start, start there and then in the more practical it is literally just. It's a, it's, how bad do you want it like that? That's, that's the question I would say is like, how, like truly how bad do you want it? And, and that would start to determine, you know, the next thing I would say, because if you want it bad enough, there's no secret sauce. Like I could have, you know, if, if I stopped at any point in the time, I. This story would've never been made. I would've never found the money for it and, and all of that, but it was just never stopping and pushing forward and, and trying to learn from it, right? Because if, for an example, when I'm sending out emails, the number a, a key thing here, a, a nugget. You have to craft that email, and it's gonna take a lot of time because you're gonna realize the more you write it, you're gonna copy paste, you're gonna do these things. It can't look like spam. It's gotta be as personal as you possibly can, as short as it possibly can be with something that's gonna punch, right? Whether it's a, a concept trailer or a look, book anything to get someone's attention because you're no different than thousands of other people reaching out. So that's number one is don't let it get to the spam folder. Have a great subject line. Have a very short, concise. Email that is gonna catch their attention. That's one. Um, and it's, yeah, learning from your mistakes. I'd also say another one is even when you get nos. Distinguish between a hard no, like this person wants nothing to do with me. And hey, they were actually responsive. They actually said a little bit more than no. Or like, best of luck kid. And even then I would follow up because I think two or three of my investors were nos and I turned'em into yeses later down in the process. So even when you get a no, cultivate a list. Like keep a list, like understand who you're talking to. Um, So that

Chris: 30:53

when you're saying a list, and I'm just gonna simplify it. Yeah, yeah. That list might be hard. No, this, these names No, but maybe those names and then obviously the yeses. Because what I'm hearing from you is like, well, I just got this piece of the puzzle, and may, maybe you just got a little bit of funding from someone, or a little bit of interest from someone over in the Yes column. Maybe you're, they're getting ready. Hey, maybe I can go back to that person who was in the maybe column and say, Hey, just wanted to give you an update. We just got a little interest from. You know, X person over here and there, you know, there's the possibility of this funding coming in. You think that might, you know, regenerate some of your own interest in the project? Is that what you're

Brett: 31:39

sort of saying? A hundred percent. That's exactly right. And I, I would even say, so when you're doing, when you're researching people, so I would. My process was, I would look on imdb, I would go IMDB Pro. I didn't have, I didn't pay for account. I used my, my producing partners account. So I was like, I was like double. I was a double chief state, right? And so I'm just like schmoozing off of everybody here. But, so I'm imdb pro looking at executive producers, but I'm actually looking at every film that's, that's, um, in, not in development because a lot of those films, everyone puts a film up in development, right? I'm looking at pre-production in production or post-production. I'm looking at like, 5 million and under, especially obscure films that you've never heard of that haven't come out yet. First time director, second, third time director, and you're never gonna find the contact information. But if their name is unique enough, you then go spend an hour finding them. So what I, I'd say like, the reason I'm saying this is because as you're doing this research and finding that individual through their, whether it's uh, they're an attorney or they're a financial advisor, or whatever the job is that they are, when you find their name and email, You know that it's their actual email. You're not just kind of like, you know, oh, this might be one of 10 John Smith's and therefore I'm just gonna, I tried like, you know, you're getting that person, so even if they don't respond, I'll probably send three or four follow ups over the course of time with updates exactly like you said. And so even if I didn't get a response, I know that's a legit person and they've invested in a film before. I actually like individuals that have only invested in like one or two films because they're new. Process. Um, that's, those are some, those are some things that I found, you know, that I think are worthwhile. And then, and then, yeah, it's just like not stopping because you can't send out a hundred and expect to get your film financed. Like it's just, if again, if it happens, amazing. It happens. But for me it was, I, I didn't find one person who was 10. I found 10 different people over the course of about two and a half years doing it, so. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. It's, I think it's, I think it's just, it's just taking notes, like you said. Keeping record of anyone who responded, cuz if they responded, there's some, there's something there. And again, yeah, just cultivate it. Cultivate it however you can. God,

Chris: 33:37

that's such great advice, you know, is really understand. I mean, what you're doing is you're building a network of people. Without, I mean, it's just sort of, you know, you, you're, you're just putting another piece to the puzzle

Brett: 33:49

together, you know? Yeah. And, and you'd be, and you'd be shocked. Like I, I spent, like, I, again, as nuggets of advice, like I went, I went through different phases. So I was hyperfocused on Im d b, where I think I actually did virtually every film, every film that was made within a two or three year period of time. And also that was in production, pre-production, post-production. And then I went, I was like, okay, I'm gonna try professional athletes. I actually got responses from like Brian Acker and some like amazing, like, I dunno if this is Randy Johnson, like amazing, amazing athletes. We had, there was interest but it just, it didn't pan out. So I'd say professional athletes, not the great, it wasn't the best cuz they're getting hit up all the time. But I was able to get through and I think again, it's just. It's just finding the different pockets of people and reaching. I was reaching out to dentists and doctors and that wasn't good. It was, honestly, it was idu. Be pro. Was, was. I love that. Well, you know you're

Chris: 34:40

not, because when you're reaching out to Dennis and doctors in that sort of category, even athletes, You have to convince them that making a film is a good thing. A, and then you have to convince them that making your film is a good thing, B, and that, you know, and all the rest. And so you have two really big hurdles to, to overcome. Whereas if you've got someone who's already in the game i e via I M D B Pro, who's already sort of bought into the filmmaking business model. Boom. Now they're, you know, they're looking for projects at that point. Yep. something that I'm learning, you know, um, you're quite a bit younger than I am, but I'm still learning this in spades, is just ask people, I mean, it's, the word no is not fatal. And a lot of people get turned on when you ask them X, Y, or Z. And you know, it's like, wow. Or, or maybe it's an opportunity that they never even considered, that they, that they might really, um, that they might really respond to in, in a, in a positive way. Absolutely. So I think that's such a, such a lesson. So just ask, I think is really part of a, part of the lesson there. What keeps you motivated when you get discouraged? I mean, you, you talk about the why, right? You need to have a reason. Is that

Brett: 35:55

it? It's definitely, it's definitely a lot of it. And I would say, but I will say like, again, this is no fairytale. I mean it was, it was, I will not pu pull any punches. It was the most brutal thing I've been through, you know, and I've been through a lot of things like that process of wanting something so bad and just getting, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, it was, I. It was that kind of, that support system in a lot of ways that, you know, ki when you're kind of that, that self-talk and you're just like, I'm done. No one wants this thing. You know, there's, there's no excitement, there's no press. You know, right now it's fun because, you know, it's perceived as fun right now from other people. Like, oh, you gotta film in, in that, you know? Yeah. Was playing in theaters, but, and it's great, but I'm still climbing that mountain. We're still working on getting things done with it as it relates to this film. Um, but, but that being said, yeah, it, it's definitely the why. It's definitely having people that. That are, that are there for you to just, to keep going, you've gotta believe in it to the point where you're gonna crawl, you're gonna crawl through stuff that no one's willing to. It's Shawshank, right? You're gonna go to that extreme that no one else would actually do. And that's, it's the reason why it's hard. Like it's the barrier to entry. It's so insanely hard. You're, you either have to come from a family that has so much money, you can go call your shots, you know, you or, or a pedigree Hollywood family that has the connections in the industry. Or you're lucky enough to get into Sundance and win, and even then it's not gonna do it for you, you know, likely, but like so many people want to do it, that you've, you've really got to, you've really got to give it your everything. And I, and the one thing I do tell people in all seriousness as well, where it's not just all rainbows and butterflies is, is like, look, the process will weed you out. It does not mean that you're not infinitely more talented than me as a filmmaker or everybody else out there. I actually firmly believe the greatest filmmakers ever to exist. Never got to make a film, whether that's because they had other responsibilities they had to take care of with families. That's true. That's true of our painters writers. I mean, yeah, they just, yes. Yeah. And, and there's, there's luck involved, there's hard work involved and all these things, but you may, you may be meant to do something else that, that's infinitely more impactful. And it doesn't mean that you're not some amazing, capable artist that can't create amazing things. But I do believe the process will weed you out. And it doesn't have anything to do with skill. It is, it is definitely a war of attrition for sure. You just gotta hang on, hang in, and just keep driving forward, even if it's an inch at a time. Yeah. I

Chris: 38:13

love it. What, uh, what pisses

Brett: 38:16

you off the most in life? Yep. Mean people mean people. People who are not empathetic and I guess I, yeah. I just, I'm a, I'm, I just, I love people. I love interacting with people and. I'm also getting, I'm also getting old enough to start to realize though, that anger and that, that that frustration comes from a place of hurt often where they're dealing with other stuff. So again, I'm trying to learn and be more, be more sympathetic to individuals. But that's, that's a tough one for me. When, when people are just outright, you know, those just almost movie character me, you know, people, they're just Sure. Me we brought that up. Yep, yep, yep. That one gets me. Right

Chris: 38:53

on. So you've given us just a ton here to, to think about talk to me about fear and that moment where you're just like, okay, God, you know that this is happening now. How was there like a d You know, everyone talks

Brett: 39:10

about the classic 3 8 3 ACT structure, right?

Chris: 39:13

And there's always that moment of darkness right before the third act where every, you know, everyone is like, it's not gonna happen. You're not gonna be able to save the earth, forget about it. Did you have one of those moments,

Brett: 39:24

and if so, Oh, I mean, honestly,

Chris: 39:28

but tell me about

Brett: 39:29

one of those. Yeah, there's been, it's honestly, that's, I, I'd say that's like the biggest life lesson for me in this process for me is, is like leaning on faith and like, because there's been so many of those moments. I'd say the biggest one that's we're talking about that set everything else up was we, so we're in pre-production, uh, going to, we're in Arkansas. We spent, I get there, we get, I get there six weeks early. Jim Pigeon, my producer's already there. Um, I'm, I had talked to this investor. He was vetted through a middleman and he had invested in the film before we'd gone through the whole process. He's read the script. I've had multiple conversations with him. He signed the contract coming in for a lot of money. I mean like, like 20% of the budget money. Take your break money. We're talking about it, big money. And it was like, it's what put us over. So I was confident, Hey, we're good. Even though we didn't have the full budget, like at the time we did have the budget cuz we had enough, we had the production budget to get through, so we were good. I get on the ground and the more time goes by, I'm realizing this, my red flag's going off because one, one thing you find is real actual business people, money people, they don't, they don't, they don't mess around. It's like when they say something, they do something and that check's gonna come. It's not like, oh. It's, it's coming from overseas and you know, the line of credit from the bank is just taking time to process. Oh, it's just

Chris: 40:40

taking, I don't know what, it's just a glitch.

Brett: 40:42

Yeah, it's just a glitch. Okay. It'll come through. So we're three weeks out and I kindly, I finally come to the realization, this guy's a fraud and he's not coming in and he is just stringing me along as well as some other productions that I found out about. And I'm sitting here spent three quarters of a million dollars already, uh, on production for pre-production cameras. We have actors who have flown out from London and, and overseas and. Everything's, you know, sets are being built. About six people know this. I literally cannot, the pre-production process for any filmmaker, I will say it is like Disneyland and because it's so fun, it's everything. It's all the creative, it's talking through wardrobe and you know the starts to come together, right?

Chris: 41:20

I mean, it's like, oh my God, I've had this in my head for so long,

Brett: 41:23

and here it is. Yeah, and you're just with all the production heads and you know, art department and everybody, and you're going through it and it's so fun. I couldn't enjoy a moment of it. I mean, I was, we were actually doing our first production table read with all the department heads sitting there, and I don't know what's normal, what's not. And I'm, I'm like, heart attack level. I can't think, cause I've gotta try and talk to investors trying to find this money. So we can go in because a, a certain individual that I can't talk about right now, I can't, I can't specify who they said they were gonna shut our production down because we didn't have the production budget cuz they did not want to have production get two weeks in and have checks bounced. And I was like, you've gotta let me go at least two weeks. Cause we spent almost a million bucks to this point. So anyway, so I, I leave in the, like I just stand up and leave in the middle of the, of this huge, uh, table read, read through to be a magical moment for you. Right? Yeah. And, and everyone's like, what's going on? So no one knew. Um, that was, I couldn't sleep at night. I mean, that, that was, that was the big one where it's like, we're, we're, we're in so much trouble. And I don't know, I don't know the way out. And luckily three days before production began, someone came in and saved the day. It was my last phone call. I literally had one phone call left and that was it. And, and he said, you know, it's not something I, I was planning to do, but you know, I'm gonna do it cause I believe in you and I believe in the film. And it was, you know, one of these people I'd met, you know, through random outreach and, and, uh, It it, so that, that was, I think, the big moment. And then, so from that point on, I'll say, I've never been in a place where I just, everything was gonna work out on, on set, nothing. We had issues. It was second worst fall on record. 90% of the film was exteriors. Like, it was brutal at every level, but I was so optimistic and filled with just, we're the Dr, I'm, we're all living the dream right now. Like we're, we're getting to do what we wanna do for so long and, and we got through the hardest part. Nothing will be harder than thinking that I have to shut this down after spending this money and time. And it goes away. So that was, that was a, that was a big, like very, very, very, very big one.

Chris: 43:16

Oh man, that is, that just gives me, that makes my, that makes me, my whole body clench. It was horrible. Right. And, and, and the fact that, you know, I. As a leader, as a director, as you know, as as being the one at the helm on this thing, you can't really share that with anybody, right? No, not at all. Cause you've got a whole team there and if they sense any wavering around that, especially the money piece, it's like, you know, that's the damn break. And so you have to just like internalize that and. That must have been extremely difficult.

Brett: 43:50

It was, it was, it was, it was a ho it was horrible. And, and, and you know, as you know, like I think that's the thing on a, on a film set is. Yeah, it is. You're, I didn't know this, but going in as a director, short films, it's one thing because it's day two, day, three day, whatever it is, and you can get through it because the end is so, it's so, it's such a depress timeline, but it doesn't change the amount of work that works the same, but on a film set. Oh my goodness. It's, you're managing, you're, you're, you're managing personalities in a lot of ways more than you are. Being some like creative director extraordinaire, like you're literally, you're, you're managing situations that are constantly in flux and changing and, but at a magnitude of such scale of, okay, Thursday's gonna be a rain out, and so you have to move this and this person's flying out then, so you can't shoot with them. And, and how are we gonna, we can't do this Brett, you know, it's like, actually, yeah, we can do this and let's just have some conversations and let's make it work. But you, it is, it is very much so. Optimistic, hopeful. And, you know, I make solutions and make Exactly, that's exactly right.

Chris: 44:50

That's, that's just incredible. Um,

Brett: 44:53

how big was the crew? Oh man, it fluctuated day to day. We tried to keep it, we tried to keep it as small as we possibly could, but I would say we were, I. We were, we were probably sitting around 70, 80 especially. Yes. Especially on the bigger days. And we were trying, you know, bring it, it, it was bigger in some ways than I ever wanted it to be because it with more, I'm so used to with, with Chris Kos, you mentioned the cinematographer. We're So he's done, he and I have done Baby running gun. Exactly. Let's just, let's go do this. And, and, and actually it's funny because the crew is so used to a very specific way of doing things. Like I'm used to picking up weights and moving things around and helping people. I got like yelled at day one, like, you don't touch my stuff. Like, that's me. Whoa, whoa, brother. Like, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to help. Like, this is what I'm just like, I'm backwards. I'm a, I'm a redneck filmmaker. Okay. Like, this is what we do. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Yeah. But it, it, there's definitely, there's definitely, uh, There's definitely a, a flow of how things typically work on bigger production and I, I tried to break that as much as I could just cuz that's not how I wanted to, you know, that's not the environment I liked or felt comfortable in. So it was, it was a good size crew though. It was, it was a healthy crew. It's

Chris: 46:00

impressive. And I know I've, you know, I've been on shows that big and it's, it's really, it's quite, quite an accomplishment. Quite an accomplishment. Do you

Brett: 46:09

have a favorite quote? I actually, I, I, I thought about this cuz you sent me one of the one or two of the questions and I, when I saw that one, I thought, oh man, I actually pulled it up. It's Harriet Becher Stow and I think it, it applies so perfectly for, for what we're talking about. Um, it's, she said when you get into a tight place and everything goes against you, It seems as if you couldn't hold on a minute longer, never give up then for, that's just the place and time that the title turn and it almost gives me emotional, I think cuz of the, the just, I think with this film that has been it for me and I think that's it for life is just, hang on, hold on. And you know, even when it, when it gets the worst, you know, that's, that's when it's about to change.

Chris: 46:50

Well you were talking about like some of the great writers and, and filmmakers and painters who. Who didn't paint or you know, didn't they, you know, they weren't the ones who, you know, they never did it and you wonder how, but they, maybe they started and you wonder how close did they get? Were they one email away? Were they one phone call away? Were they, you know, and so that's what I sort of think about. It's like you just have to keep going. And I think that's, I know some people think that's Tom foolery at some point, for sure. Um, but if you're passionate about something, you just have to just keep, like you said, put one foot in front of the other. I think that's such a powerful message for people. Um, any any shows you're watching right now or any, any, any, anything. You're, you're, you're digging on.

Brett: 47:43

I'm so lame. I've been so, I think I, I've had such little time. I know you've been wrapped up in

Chris: 47:47

this, you know, a little thing called Freedom's Path. Yeah, yeah. So I get it. No, no apologies.

Brett: 47:52

No, I mean, hey, here's, here's one that's not cool at all. Or I, I, my wife and I love it. It's, it's, the MTV's the challenge. It's not, it's nothing cinematic. It's just like a, it's a competition show, dude. I'll tell

Chris: 48:03

you. Ok. So this is, we were revealing some guilty pleasures here. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I watch. Never have I Ever, I don't know if you know this

Brett: 48:11

show. No, no, no.

Chris: 48:13

What is it? It's about, uh, an Indian, um, an Indian girl in, in, uh, high school in Sherman Oaks, and it's, oh, Yeah, it's, it's, uh, Mindy Kaling is the executive producer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, it's, it's, it's quite good. But like you said, it's like, like if I told Chris Koser that for example, he would stare down his nose at me hard. Oh yeah. Don't mention it to him. Whatever you

Brett: 48:40

do. No, no. It's me and you. Just me and you. Exactly the best. You gotta have those. You gotta have those.

Chris: 48:46

Yeah, for sure. I will say the third epi, the last of us, I like quite a bit. Um, and the third episode specifically is, is really interesting, um, taking a genre and sort of bending it in a direction that it's just very unexpected. So if, if, if that, if you ever have an opportunity to jump into that, I love that. Worth doing that. Yes. Um, where can people find you online? What's, what's going on right

Brett: 49:12

now? Man, my, my social presence is so soft. Uh, It's, uh, I'm on Instagram and Facebook, but I'm not, I'm not the best social media guy online, no. Um, at Brett Smith, it's Brett with Forti. So Bret Smith. That's how, you know, that's, that's how I like to pronounce my name. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, that's the spell it right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. B Bretts, bro. With the fours. So yeah. I'm, I, I need to get better on, on social media, but, uh, Yeah.

Chris: 49:40

Yeah. And then working can people, I, I really encourage everyone who's listening to go see this film Freedom's Path. It is such a powerful, wonderful film. Um, it really does change the narrative in, in, in approach of, of, of, of. Of the films that have preceded it. I'm just so stoked to, you know, I was not involved, but just I was tangential and sort of watching the process and I gotta say, you were so inspirational. It's, it's, it's, it's an amazing testament to a, having the vision, which a lot of people have, I. But B, having the passion and really combining those things together to do the work that it took to get it done. So kudos to you. Oh, man. I've got one last question from a dir, another director by the name. He's, so the previous podcasts, how can I, how, how can I say this? The previous podcast

Brett: 50:39

guest mm-hmm. Gets to ask the next

Chris: 50:42

podcast guest a question. Oh boy. So last week I had Jordan Ryon, who is the director of, uh, the Canoe Journey. Um, and, uh, he wants to know what are your plans for 2023? Any new projects on the slate? And then

Brett: 51:00

we'll wrap. Yeah, yeah, good question. Um, I am working with Tom Scar on a film that is a passion project of his, that we're kind of going through right now. It's a World War II film. Um, but it's about the, the kids that are left at home while their dads are off fighting and it actually takes place in the Pacific Northwest. Uh, beautiful story. It's kind of a Goonies meets standby me, meets like Dead Poet Society. It's this really beautiful coming of age story and, uh, sounds amazing. Really excited, really excited about it. So, kind of working on, working on that one, trying to slowly let the, the transition happen from freedoms path into this.

Chris: 51:35

Right on. Well, hey, look, um, Brett again, I can't give you enough accolades and roses. You, you killed it, man. I just cannot wait to see what you do next. And, uh, here's to Jamaica Movies, here's to Freedom's path. Keep doing the good work, my man.

Brett: 51:53

Oh, man. The, the honor's been mine. Chris, I like thank you so much. It means so much. Thank you.

Chris: 51:58

You bet. I'll

Brett: 51:59

be talking to you soon. All right, we'll see you. Bye.

52:02

And so ends another episode of creative state. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to visit our sponsor creator deals.com. But even more importantly, keep making the good stuff. See you soon.