Creative State

Creative State | The Alexandra Lockhart Episode #8

• Chris Donaldson

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In this episode of Creative State, I’m especially excited to chat with musician Alexandra Lockhart of the band Cumulus about the unconscious power of personality bias (hint: we all have it), how Bumbleshoot strengthened her family bonds, opening a music venue at 17 years old, the importance of community, and - 

Getting your gear stolen 5 minutes before the biggest show of your life.

Jump in - the water’s warm. 


© 2023 Moment Film Co, LLC

Just when you thought it was safe to boogie in the streets. Along comes creative state at the intersection of art and business.

Chris:

In this episode of creative state, I'm especially excited to chat with musician, Alexandra, and Lockhart about the unconscious power of personality bias. Hint, we all have it.

How Bumbershoot strengthened her family bonds.

Chris:

Opening a music venue at 16 years old. Getting your gear stolen five minutes before the biggest show of your life. How to keep the dream alive and community community com unity.

Jump in. The water's warm. But first a word from our sponsor creator deals. If there's one thing, all of us creators need out there to do battle in the creative economy. It's the tools for success, and that's why we've partnered with creator deals.com. The number one destination, to discover the best deals. Out there from Adobe creative suite to the best desk chairs, to all the goodies, we need to make the good stuff. So we can put a dent in the universe, check out creator deals.com, empowering creators everywhere. And now let's get busy.

Chris:

​hey, I am absolutely thrilled to be here today with Alexander Lockhart from the band Cumulus. who is super impressive as a musician. You're my first musician on the pod, so I just gotta tell you, thank you so much for, for agreeing to do this. You're gonna bring a whole new perspective and shine some really fresh light on what it is to make stuff. you've Released over, I guess, three albums since 2013, which is amazing. I'm sure you've just got some crazy tour stories to tell us about music videos, um, out there, selling the dream of being a musician, all that while balancing a career as a recruiter. But the first thing I wanna jump in on, I was really fascinated by a post that you made on LinkedIn, challenging us around this idea of hiring people based on their personality. You know, the hire for personality. So, which

Alexandra:

I think, oh damn, we're diving into it like we're

Chris:

right. And I think it's interesting because you bring up this thing that I'll just coin like personality bias, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and you, you think, you see in your post, I think, which I think is really just spot on. It's, it's not the b it's not the bias itself that's problematic. It's not recognizing the bias and digging in deeper, going in deeper to, to, to really see more about that person other than this mm-hmm. The, this sort of personality, that front facing mask that we all wear anyway, which isn't necessarily an accurate representation of who we really are. Yeah. So I just wanted you to talk about that a little bit and, and talk about personality bias, because as a performer, It's sort of similar, you're sort of putting this, this presentation forward of who you are as a performer, as a musician, as a person. So talk, walk me through that. Where does that come

Alexandra:

from? Yeah, um, well man, this is getting really deep immediately, Chris. So, um, I mean, to be honest, like, so the conversation, um, and this is very much in my industry, this is kind of like, there's like lots of opinions that can kind of come out on LinkedIn and, and when you say industry, you're talking about the recruiting, just recruiting, recruiting industry, right. And especially when it comes to bias and, and fair interview practices and things like that. So basically, somebody posted on LinkedIn that the reason that hiring was failing for whoever it is out there, her advice was to hire based on personality and that skills will come later. And that's just something that, um, what I was kind of getting to without saying it because I knew then it would maybe blow up a little too much, um, is that we are all a part of a system that is patriarchy and white supremacy and all these other things. And so when we think about like what kind of communication do we think is, um, app appealing to us? What kind of communication style do we align with? It's gonna be like the dominant, most popular, you know, kind of communication style that we're all used to. But why are we used to that? And then you have to think about, you know, Oh, maybe I'm used to that because I surround myself with a lot of people that talk like me and come from backgrounds like me. So, you know, all of these things should really get you to be asking questions. And the thing that I think is really important, and I think it probably just honestly does come from years of being really passionate about diversity and inclusion and reading about these things, is the acknowledgement that like, we are not immune. Like even if you're trying to be the best ally in the world, if you are a white, um, cisgender, uh, middle class person, um, you're going to have a perspective that is biased and you're going to see things through your own lens that is based on your experience. And I think a lot of the time people are like hesitant to reflect on that because they feel like if they acknowledge that bias, it makes them a bad person. Mm-hmm. And I think that the real, the real deeper kind of conversation is, Like, you're not a bad person because you assume something that you've been told to assume. Um, you're not a bad person because you have biases. We all do. Um, but what you should be doing, and what we should all be doing is thinking a little more, uh, in depth about how those biases play a role on our interpretation of any given person or relationship or scenario. I feel like I'm getting really complicated sounding. I hope that made sense there. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And, oh, sorry. Go Chris. No, no.

Chris:

I, I was just gonna say, you know, for me, I, as, as a white male, yeah. Um, you know, I, I definitely have been working harder at recognizing those biases for sure. And I think it's also coming to the understanding that I want to have these conversations. And I think part of me is afr, part of me is afraid to have those conversations. Mm-hmm. Because I'm afraid of making the wrong step or saying the wrong thing. Saying

Alexandra:

the wrong thing. Yes.

Chris:

So I've been really, I've been really trying to focus on, hey, it's gonna be an, it might, it might be a messy conversation. Yeah. You know, it might be an awkward conversation, but it's a conversation I still want to have. So I've been forcing myself to really like get over those, not only my biases, but also my fears of. Maybe offending someone, you know, and just trying to, Hey, I wanna understand where you're coming from. Let's talk about that. Let's work through it and see if, you know, see if we can share some commonalities. Cuz we all share so many commonalities. How can, how, how can we recognize and acknowledge those and build, build off those?

Alexandra:

I love that Chris. And I love that kind of, and I love that reflection of being like, I've been afraid to say the wrong thing. So sometimes I don't say anything. Exactly. I think that's all of us, you know? Yeah. And so the more that we can kind of start, you know, maybe just reading books on the topic and talking and, and having the awkward conversations and making the mistakes, the more we're going to learn. I always kind of tell people too, that when you get called out on something, if somebody like says, Hey, I really didn't like the way you said that. Or, um, hey, maybe you should, maybe you should think about, you know, your opinion on that topic. That's not somebody who's just saying that because they. Because they want, because they have all the time in the world that is a person who's invested in your wellbeing and who thinks that you are an awesome person who's capable of doing better. So they wanna tell you, Hey Chris, maybe you should rethink that. Maybe you should check out this book. Maybe you should check out this article. Or, or think about it this way. Because for people, like people that I don't care at all about, uh, then I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take the time to invest in their, like educating them, you know? Yeah. If I, so I do kind of feel like, um, I wish more people realized that it's actually like an act of love when people decide that they want to encourage your growth. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Chris:

No. Well said. Yeah. There's a book out, there's a book out there by Adam Grants called Think Again, which I highly mm-hmm.

Alexandra:

I listen to his podcast.

Chris:

Yeah. It's basically, don't believe everything you think. And I think that's such a,

Alexandra:

oh my gosh. And that can go into many things with being an artist too. Oh my God. Like, oh, totally. I'm trying to remember, like, I think somebody told me their therapist told them this, and I, but like, just because you think it doesn't make it real, you know, like so a hundred percent. Especially when it comes to things like anxiety and depression and all those other things. Um, self-worth, you know? Right. Like, just because you're thinking it doesn't mean that's actually the way it is. That's so true.

Chris:

Hey, that sort of dovetails a little bit into being an artist and being a reflection of. At least a representation of what we believe it to be and what we believe that it is. You obviously chose music as a path to communicate. Do you remember like the genesis of that, sort of the origins, the superhero origin story of when you were like, oh gosh, music is something that I need to do? Or was there a band or, or some sort of influence that just sort of grabbed you? What, what propelled you in the, in the direction that you took? Tell us a little bit about

Alexandra:

that. Yeah, well there's like a, I think that I grew up going to music events with my dad. So we went to bu shoot from the age of like, when I was like six until I was 18 or something. We went every year. Um, and that is awesome, you know, and at the time that bu shoot was really affordable and it had blues artists that my dad liked, and then it had all the nineties rock bands that I liked. So, you know, one minute we would be going to see, um, ke Mo and then the next minute we'd be going to see Third Eye Blind or something like that. So it was a really cool, uh, you know, ability for us to connect through music. Me and my dad. And then I grew up in, uh, Oak Harbor, Washington, and it was a town that, it's a military town, so there's two military bases and a Walmart. That's kind of my joke about that town. But there really isn't a lot for young people to do, particularly civilian people. Um, you know, a lot of. You know, any kind of events or even. Places to hang out. They're all for military families, uh, things like that. So there's not a lot of culture like work being put into the culture of that town and things for young people to, to explore. It's changing, it's becoming a little bit better now. They have like the Oak Harbor Music Festival, which has become pretty big in the last few years. A lot of effort gets put into that. But when I was a kid there was just nothing to do. So I loved music and I think it was more of probably a teenage angst, you know, thing. I loved emo and screamo and um, stuff like that. So I decided that I was gonna start putting on shows. And so I booked the Elks Lodge and the I O O F temple, which is just like, you know, some brotherhood kind of building and they rented it to me for a hundred bucks and I'd get$50 back if I left it in good shape. So my dad would work the door and I would book the bands and I did, I booked shows for like my whole junior and senior year of high school for, for kids to attend. They were, you know, no alcohol, no drugs, just music. And it was bands from Ana Cordes and Tacoma and Seattle and like one band. Um, I met in line while I was at Warp Tour, which my dad drove me to and I was standing in line at work tour and this guy was handing out flyers for his band and they ended up becoming a really good friend of mine and I called them up and they played in Oak Harbor, you know, so then we've been friends since high school now. So little things like that. Um, so I think the community aspect is really what I think. I was always searching for a place to belong. And cuz I felt like I didn't belong in a conservative navy town. So music was a way for me to feel more connected to the weirdos and the, and the punks and the like, people making things. Um, and then, uh, at when I, and then I, an cordes was a really big thing for me, the music community there. My senior year I started attending shows at the all ages venue called the Department of Safety. And in college I ended up living there for a little while. Um, but that was an artist run. So basically the artists, there was like a group of people that lived upstairs. It was a hostile, an apartment and a venue built into this old firehouse. And so the people who lived there, and this is called the Department

Chris:

of Safety.

Alexandra:

Yeah, because it was a fire department and there were old jail cell. They're a great name. Yes. And so it got converted into this music venue in Carl bbl and Phil Rim from the microphones were a really big part of it. So it was kind of like, and Calvin Johnson, it was like a hub for like that K records kind of scene. Um, and so every summer there was a music festival called, what the Heck Fest that brought in a lot of indie bands from all over the world. And then big touring bands would come through, like Magnolia Electric Company or Body Prince Billy or Beach House, and they would play in this tiny venue that was a firehouse in an cordes. And when you live there in the venue, you get to cook dinner for the bands too. So it's like the bands crash there and eat dinner there, and it's like a co, it's a communal thing. So it's just like, it was amazing for me as a teenager to see adults. Doing mu like, like being in creative living situations as adults. Like they were, you know, building community and booking shows and doing that. It wasn't like, oh, you have to grow up and quit doing that, you know, so that kind of gave me a new idea of what growing up meant. And then when I went to college, I got really involved in college radio. I knew I wanted to do that because I loved community and music. So I Where did you go to school At Western Uhhuh. And so, um, immediately I became a, a dj, like first quarter, my freshman year had a, that's a Kpu, U g, uh, k U g s. Oh, k u g s. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a radio show from two to 4:00 AM for like three quarters before I got like a really good slot. And then my sophomore year of college, I became the promotions director of the radio station. I applied and got that job and then that, that got me really involved in the music scene of Bellingham and I started playing house shows. I started playing shows on my acoustic guitar because, can I stop you just for one second?

Chris:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Its

Alexandra:

a lot. You so sorry.

Chris:

No, no. I know. It's awesome. I'm, I'm loving it. And we're gonna get back to that. But you said that you started to book shows Yeah. At in Oak Harbor when you were a junior in high school. Yeah. So you would basically book and promote bands that would come in and your dad helped you out. It cost you a hundred bucks to rent the space. You'd 50 space,$50 back. Yeah. You'd get$50 back if it was clean. And that to me is such a fascinating story because, I mean, not only are you sort of flexing your musical chops, but also your entrepreneurial, I mean, it's sort of the business side a little bit, right? I mean, you had to like run a show. You had to, yeah. Make this thing happen. You had to return the space in a really good state, or you wouldn't get your money back. Mm-hmm. I mean, where did that come from? I mean, that, that's sort of a really interesting, I mean, inspiring story. I mean, that's just, people don't usually get off the couch and make that happen. What, what, what drove you, do you

Alexandra:

think? Yeah, that's a really, I, I mean, I think I just, like, I loved live music and I loved being around it. I think that's really all it was. I was just fueled by wanting to watch live bands and, um, and be around like, I I, there I'd started discovering kids that were in bands at my high school because they wanted to play the shows. So it was just something where I started, that was my way of connecting with the people who made music. I did not realize yet that I would be somebody that made music. I think I was really shy about it. Um, I got a drum set when I was 16 and I played drums alone in my house. But other than that, like I didn't, I sang a lot to myself. Um, but I never performed out until my senior year of high school at a talent show, and I was nervous as heck. Um, but basically I just knew that I loved music and I, I just, I. That was my connection to it. That's what I was like thinking. And I think it's a path that like a lot of, um, women, like, I think there's a lot of women involved in the behind the scenes of music. Mm-hmm. Um, because maybe that's where you feel like you can make your first move is in the behind the scenes in the support part of things. Right. So there's a lot of women in the touring industry that are like touring prof, you know, that are, you know, doing the merch, doing the, you know, uh, graphic design, doing the audio production, doing like all the things that, um, and I'm not trying to take away from that, but I do think that it's natural. I think when you're not used to seeing, at that time, between 2002 and 2006, I was not used to seeing young women in bands or young girls. Mm-hmm. You know, teenage girls in bands. Yeah. So I kind of felt like if I'm gonna get closer to music, it's gonna be this way. Yeah. And so that was kinda. That's, I think that was kind of the route there. That's really

Chris:

interesting because, I mean, I think that's such a good life lesson for anyone, whether you're a writer or a filmmaker or a musician. I mean, you have to go out and make your opportunities if it's not happening for you. Yeah. You gotta go out and rent a space and bring the peop bring them mountain to you. Right. Yeah. That's what I think. That's really, really cool. So now you're back in Bellingham and you're starting to get into the music scene here. You're a DJ at, you know, k u g s. You're, you're 2:00 AM to 4:00 AM shift. Mm-hmm. Which must have been really interesting. Uh, how did you, when did you think, when did you, like, I know your first album came out in 2013 with Cumulus. Yeah. But how did you say, oh, I, I think I can do this. What was the inspiration to that?

Alexandra:

Well, I started like writing, um, random songs in, uh, in my college dorm my freshman year. For friends that were like sick or something, I'd write them a little di like a little diddy to make them feel better or something. And um, I just kind of, my friends really liked it and they really encouraged me and then I just kind of kept on writing and um, I went and lived in the Department of Safety the summer of 2008 and that's where I played my first venue show was at the Department of Safety, um, as a singer songwriter. And then, you know, just kind of this is an in accordance. Do

Chris:

you have any photos of this? Is there

Alexandra:

probably, I know that this poster with this photo right there is from that show.

Chris:

Oh God, you have to take a picture of that and send it to me. If I can include it in the show notes. That's awesome.

Alexandra:

Um, but yeah, I just kind of feel like I started, you know, I just surrounded myself with, I. People that were really encouraging, and there were a lot of, you know, really radical women around me too. I was like in super feminist mode, like surrounding myself with women that really wanted to see more women in music, more queer representation in music. So like, there was this festival called Lady Fest Bellingham that happened, um, that was really cool. It happened two years in a row. And then we went to a thing called Gender Jam, which was an Olympia, which was kind of like a sequel to the original Lady Fest, but it was more gender inclusive. Um, and you're playing music now, or you're Yeah. Yeah. You're playing music at these things and also helping coordinate these things and Yeah. You know, and being, um, and then the mu the house venues in Bellingham were fantastic. Like, and that's, I'm sure that's still happening right now, but I'm 35, so I don't know about them. You know, that's kind of how it all works. Yeah. Yeah. But when I was in college, the house venue scene was amazing. So you'd get to play in these like, Packed, sweaty little punk houses with your elec, you know, just you and your electric, just me and my electric guitar. And it was so fun. And so when I finished college at Western, um, and I, you know, and community building I feel like has always been also equally important to my music. Like, it's almost like that's what my music was for me, was my way of connecting myself to a community. And so I moved to Seattle because I wanted to pursue music. So I moved to Seattle 2010, and then I made, um, started, I, I started forming a band around the songs that I'd been writing. And, uh, and, and it was a lot of, and something I talk about a lot is like, so when I was in high school booking those shows, it was. The Lonely Forest. John Van Dusen from The Lonely Forest. I was booking his old band called Last Man Standing, which was a high school screamo band. And then they became the Lonely, you know, he transitioned later on into becoming the Lonely Forest, signed onto Chris Wallace's label from Death Cab for Kitty. And then that's how I ended up getting signed to Chris Wallace's label. And meeting Chris Walla was through, you know, the connections that I made as a, as a fan and a kid booking shows when I was 14. And so then in my adult life, the Lonely Forest took me out on my first tour and Chris Walla put out my first two records. And, um, and it was just, yeah, and I, I, I got, I got, when I moved to Seattle, I got right involved with the House Show venues immediately. Um, the d i y kind of scene, there was a really great venue on Capitol Hill, um, that I really miss. I'm trying to remember what the name of it was, but, um, There was a really strong D iy scene in the 2010 time of Seattle. Um, and it's, I'm sure there is, what does that term

Chris:

mean to you, diy? I meant, I know it's do it yourself. Mm-hmm. But what does that mean as it relates to music? I'm really interested. Is it, I mean, I know in, in the filmmaking space, you have like indie film, guerrilla filmmaking, you know this sort of, yeah. Putting it together, but I've never actually heard like the term DIY as it relates to music. Well,

Alexandra:

basically, um, oh man, I'm trying, it's like something Club is like, oh, healthy Time, fun Club. That was the name of this venue on Capitol Hill. It was below a beauty parlor, kind of like buried in the corner of like garden, like it was like on. It was kind of near the Broadway. It was very close to Broadway on Capitol Hill. But I think that, so basically this venue, a lot like the do o s, they cooked vegan food for everybody. Um, people lived there in the venue and then booked the venue. Um, so it was very communal, you know, it was like, you, you come here, we feed you, you pay five bucks, you know, the bands all split it and you get your, you get fed, you get to enjoy the music. It was very much like a taking care of each other and taking care of your scene kind of vibe. And I think that with house shows it's a lot like that too. I mean, you're coming into a person's house, so it's just like a really kind of more intimate environment than just being the band that plays a bar, you know? So I think that the DIY scene is something that, to me, there's like a lot of accountability in it. It's a really, like a scene that cares about the safety and inclusion of others. Um, it's a scene that. You know, cares about welcoming people, um, taking care of each other. Um, and it's just kind of like the buildings are probably not up to code. Like the buildings are probably, you know, um, the sound system's probably not great. Uh, you know, but you're not, you, you're not gonna get a guarantee necessarily. Um, and when you're on tour and you find those DIY spaces, a lot of the times those are venues that like, upfront, you know, you're not sure how much money you'll make at the show, but it'll be the best show that you played, you know, on the whole tour. Right. Because they gave you a place to sleep, they cooked you a homemade meal, and everybody who was there was like a part of a community that cared about music. Mm-hmm. And so to me, that's, that's just, that is a, a very precious thing. And I think that that is a little bit separate from the venue kind of. Aspect of things. Right. In and out. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris:

God, that's, that's so, that's so cool. And so you've been, so this led to your first album. Explain, explain how that came together and how, I think it's really interesting because the parallel between you being a recruiter mm-hmm. And will you talk about community and connecting people Yeah. Which is what a recruiter does. Building Yeah. Bu building, culture, I mean, it, it's all part of that recruitment j recruiter job description. Right. And, and being an advocate for a certain way of doing things in a, in a, in a lifestyle. Um, it sounds to me like you then, We're very good at doing that as well. As you started to build out your, the DIY community and really, you know, treating, creating, treating that like a sacred space in a Yes. A sacred responsibility. How did that translate into you forming your first band and creating your first album?

Alexandra:

Yeah. Well, I, I think that, um, I've always been really intentional about, or I've tried to be intentional about, you know, when we're playing a bill, you know, making sure that like, we're not the only, I'm not the only woman on the bill or something like that. Yeah. You know, things like that. I do, I think about representation when shows are being booked, um, with bands that I go and support and get, you know, when I'm going out and watching shows and supporting artists and things like that. So that kind of ethos is always with me. Like, I, I can't not think about. How sacred and wonderful it is and powerful to be, um, on a stage and, and sharing your story. Um, and so, but when it comes to just, I think though in like 2012, I, I was still just a kid. I feel like I was, even though I was in my early twenties, but I was just writing breakup songs. I was just writing breakup songs, trying to get my broken heart to feel a little better. And I've always kind of known that I loved sad songs. I love sad songs cuz they make me feel less sad and less alone in my sadness. So to me, like music has always been like my space to write my feelings out in case anybody else might be feeling that way too. And then yeah. You know, and that's kind of my, my contribution, um, out into the world is in, in my way. So I think that. That first album, we got to go and record it in Anna Corti at Phil Rim's studio called The Unknown. And it was very much, um, an in and out, like recorded it in three days I think. And we played, we recorded the songs like exactly as we played the songs. Mm-hmm. So it was, you know, very much a first album. It wasn't like, um, a lot of overdubs or a lot of like, production thoughts or anything like that. It was just like a band playing the songs. Um, but at the same time, I think it's a really wonderful like, time capsule of, um, the relationships I had then, uh, Leah from Thunder Pussy, who's now the bass player for Thunder Pussy, was my bass player at that time. And, um, Lance Humble was my guitar player, who also I met through booking shows when I was in high school. Um, and he lived in Seattle and we reconnected and so it was just, Really, really fun. We were all figuring out how to be in a band on a label that toured and put out a record. And, uh, it wasn't perfect and it was a lot of lessons. Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah. And back to that whole life is messy, sort of, we have to sort of, I just accept that as part of what's part of the package. Right.

Alexandra:

Well, like, I feel like I've, some of the things you and I have already that we've talked about, I've accidentally talked about a lot in other conversations, but something that I do like, kind of wanna dig into more is stuff that you and I have talked about with another post that I made in the past, but that idea of figuring out how to keep creating, you know, um, how to, how to keep creativity in your life even though you're readjusting the expectations of what your life is gonna be like. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. So, um, I think about. I'm really, really, basically lately I'm like really, really glad that I spent all of, I spent all of my twenties working at restaurants, working temp jobs, working at bars, um, and quitting those jobs to go on tour and put out records. And I'm very, very proud of that. Um, and I think that if you're in your twenties, absolutely, you should totally go out, go to the war, you know, find the cheapest place to live, get a storage unit, put your crap in it. I don't get in the van, you know, just go, yeah, just go. But at the same time, like as you get older, um, you know, don't be so hard on yourself if that's not the way that you can make a living. Mm-hmm. And I think that like, basically, um, and right now we're in a weird moment with technology and I mean, I'm, I feel like it's, I. Probably similar to how the cassette revolution, you know, the cassette thing kind of felt for people. Or, um, I was listening to a podcast that dove into the history of radio and how for a while, or, uh, radio stations always had live bands in the 1930s or, you know, 1940s. Right. And so, but then when bands could record themselves, a bunch of musicians that were the live bands on radio that made their living that way lost were losing their jobs because Yeah. Songs could be recorded. Yeah. So there's always like, something that's, and now people are talking

Chris:

about ai,

Alexandra:

right? Yeah. It's the same. Exactly. So there's always gonna be something kind of coming along, you know, and it's, it's really interesting to think about and, but the expectation now to like be everything is really, really overwhelming. Like, to be a content creator, to be a social media, Pro to be, to be a business person, to be a business person, um, to be a band leader, to be an outgoing personality that people relate to and to write good songs and to be a producer and to, it's just so, and to keep your laundry, you know, in Yeah. In your life. Yeah. And I think that, like, I started to realize that being broke is really, really exhausting. Um, and yeah. And it can contribute to a lot of mental health problems. I think it was a root of a lot of like my own mental health struggles. Mm-hmm. Just kind of feeling like I could never have solid footing. Um, and then also kind of feeling bitter because I felt like, oh, because I've committed my life to creative endeavors, I'll never get a sense of security uhhuh. And that just made me like literally brokenhearted. Yeah. And so then realizing like, Maybe I actually will have more energy for the creative things that I like to do if I'm doing something else that pays the bills and makes it so I'm not broke and make, and make it something that I enjoy, make it something that uses the skills that I've actually built by being a creative, the diy, you know, performer and connector. Yeah. And, and community builder. And I understand that like, I mean, it takes a lot of, it took me a really long time to put those pieces together, but I really hope that everybody that I know that's like, just really feeling down about the creative economy and what they're gonna do. I hope that like. I hope that they can really take the time to think about how they can apply their skills in so many different ways that might surprise you and that might bring you a little more stability and ease, um, and, and actually re-energize your creativity. That's kind of like my, I just won't put that out there. No, that is

Chris:

so smart. Because I think, you know, when we see social media in particular, it just serves us a curated life, right? So all we're seeing are all these high points of people's lives. Yeah. And I think, and I think as a, as a maker, as an artist, it can, it can, it makes me just have complete fomo. Like, oh my God, why am I not doing the right thing? The right, I must not be doing the right thing the right way, because otherwise I'd be overdoing what that person's doing. Yeah. And it's just, most of that is BS anyway. And so just to come to terms with. Of with making a living and, and, and finding joy in, in the totality of what you're doing as opposed to just small little pieces, I think is a super smart approach. On, on your part, and I know that, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you came off tour from your 2019, uh, comfort World album sort of burnout and just exhausted and tired. Is that when you started to sort of reset a little bit or talk to me

Alexandra:

about that? Yeah, yeah. Basically, you know, I was about to turn 30 and, um, we would, we drove all the way to South by Southwest. You know, we toured all the way to New York City from Washington state, like went all the way out there. We, uh, in a van. In a van, you know, and yeah, that must have been just crazy. That van I had, like, we had the engine drop out the back of the van, the bottom of the van on our way to Tree Fort Festival, and that was right after we'd left. Um, south by and when we were at South by, it was our first time being an official south by artist and we were really excited. Um, but our gear got stolen about five minutes before our set. Like there was, there was like this, uh, you know, just, you know, I can't talk too much about it actually. And, but there was an it dance without spiraling or what they were No, like, you know, like I don't think they liked to like I bet the festival wouldn't like people to know that that's even a thing that could happen. Yeah. But you know, they, they tell you, you know, you're playing a showcase with like 10 other bands. The venue can't fit 10 bands gear in this tiny little bar in Austin. So they tell you to go and put your gear in a location and sometimes other people know where those locations are. And um, so that was just something that was like, Really heartbreaking. And it ended up all working out eventually, you know? Um, did you play the show or how did it work? What happened? We did play the show. Like not all of our gear got stolen. It ended up, uh, my guitar player, William was able to r grab his guitar out of the person's hands. Oh my God. Um, and then it was our drum machine that got stolen in the drum machine for Comfort World. We had a drum pad that was doing a lot of, um, that we ha like the drummer was using that with. The full drum kit. But it had a lot of, stuff like programmed into it Yeah. That the songs couldn't be performed without. And so that, and we'd been rehearsing it like that, you know, for months. Yeah, sure. So that we just had to cut a couple songs out of the set. Um, and we were all really frustrated and angry. Like it was like, yeah. Not the right energy. Right. Yeah. It was not a good show. It was not, and it was just like, and that was really heartbreaking, you know? And, and those things just happened. They happen. But I think that, um, It was just kind of like, by the end of it, it's, it, it wasn't something, it was all for love. None of it was really for money. And I just think I started getting so exhausted that I started just thinking, you know, what are the things that I love most about making music and what are the things I could do without, like, what are the parts that like, I kept felt like I kept on trying to force myself to be, to try to be all the things right. And I just like, it's like social media content. I freaking hate. I, I don't know if I can swear on podcasts, so I'm Absolutely, you go for it. I fucking hate that stuff. I don't like, you know, um, and so like, how, how can I get that interesting about my day? Like I'll sit and work from, you know, like I don't Yeah, yeah. Like, so I just kind of feel like I've decided. I don't really wanna be doing social media that much or pressure myself to do a lot of social media. I'm fine and, and I can make these choices now because I'm not trying to make my living making music. So basically me transitioning from trying to make a living doing it made me feel like I had to try to be all those things. And it was driving me insane. But then when I kind of allowed myself to move on from that and start focusing on other directions of, of just like career or day job or anything like that, when I was able to cut my dreams of financial gain from music. Cuz I just think that that's, it's awesome if you can make money making music, but if, but the process of getting there. Is not many bands get there and it's just like, and it is, it takes a toll. And, um, and you start making music for the wrong reasons too, you know? Right. So I just kind of felt like I don't wanna, um, I can't do it anymore. I'm just, I wanna make music because I wanna make it because I really feel something that I need to say, I wanna write a song because I really feel like I need to write this song and I wanna post something because I really want to post something. And because I, I think it's necessary and I want to be more intentional with how, you know, I present myself and not make it all about intentional in an a in a way that's true to me. Not intentional in a way that's like social media strategy. Right. You know? And so I just kinda like now that, now that I don't have to worry about making money, playing music, I can go play a show for a, with a friend that. It doesn't pay me anything, but because I think it'll be a fun way to spend a Friday night. Yeah. Or I can go and like, you know, take as long as I want to, to make a new song and put out another record. Or not. Or not, yeah.

Chris:

Or not. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, there's so many, what you, just like the last two minutes of what you just said is so rich with, great, great advice. I mean, myself as a commercial filmmaker, I have clients and sometimes it does become more of something you have to do as opposed to something. Mm-hmm. You want to do, and when that Yeah, switch flips, it's, it's hard because you're not a bringing your best work to the table for sure. And b, it just becomes, it just dens that, that initial spirit that you found so, um, inviting about the craft in the first place. And so I think, I think really getting back to that joyful spot, I'm not saying it ha all has to be joyful of course, but just finding that fulfillment Yes. Is so,

Alexandra:

so amazing. I think, and, and not everybody has to like lot, a lot of people like you, like my husband are, my husband's a freelance artist for a living. Yeah. And he makes his living doing that. And he's able to go between personal projects and projects for clients, and he feels really good. Like, but he's always working. It's just like never off, you know? Yeah. So I know that, like, I have a D H D, um, and I get depressed when I'm doing nothing. When I'm not really busy, I get depressed. So I've learned that I need, like, structure in my life. So a nine to five is actually very good for my brain because it allows me to actually. Put my focus into something and then I know when it's time to tune out and I know when it's time to tune in. Yeah. And, but not everybody needs that. So I do think, you know, it's also figuring out like what you need to get your joy, you know? Yeah. To be able to continue creating in your life in a sustainable way. Um, I just like, I think that more people should be thinking long term about how they can keep sus creating forever. Because a lot, I just know too many artists that get to the point that I got in 2019 and instead of saying I'm gonna go and get a career that empowers me to, um, put more intentional time into my music, they just say, I'm gonna go and get a career and quit music. They get so burnt out on it that they just quit completely. Yeah. Right. Or you know, or they just think the only way to be a career person is to not be. A creative person or something, you know, if they're going into a non-creative career path. Right. And, and that breaks my heart. Like, and I also wanna say that talking to you, I guess I'm talking in long rambles, so I'm really so sorry Chris. Are you kidding

Chris:

me? No, that's

Alexandra:

is all so good. But like I was thinking, you, you kind of made me connect some dots here with the DIY thing in that I think the DIY ethos was really important to cradling me in a supportive way when I was discovering myself as an artist. But I think that it also, um, contributed to that very black and white kind of vision I had of like what it is to be an artist is like, oh, you have to be broke and you have to be, um, You know, just kind of like it has, you know, you have to give everything, you have to give it your all and to the point where, and that thing about selling out isn't so much a thing now, but even in the mid two thousands it was very much a thing. Like if you saw, if you heard an indie band get a sink placement on a car commercial, you'd be like, oh, that bin's sold out so loud. Yeah. And it's like, wow, we have such a different perspective on that now. Now it's like, holy shit, you just got like 20,000,$50,000 that's gonna help you build your home studio that's gonna help you like continue to be able to play music for the next couple years. Like, fuck that. Good on you. Yeah. Like, good job, you know? But even like when I was first starting out, there was just a real, um, icky taste in the mouth for anybody that wanted to have a. To make a, make a good living being an artist. Yeah. Right. So it was interesting. Yeah. There's that

Chris:

tension there for sure. A absolutely. Um, and I think it's ties into my next question, something you said off mic was, you really don't like this term content creator. Is it re as it as it relates to your music or music in general? Mm-hmm. Talk to me about that. Because you think of content creation as just sort of a, a, uh, an assembly line of people just making stuff and it's sort of, it's not, yeah. What, where does that, where does that, where does that distaste come from?

Alexandra:

Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, just like the idea of, like I was saying, you know, um, being like strategic in, in a way that's like not genuine. Um, yeah. And just kind of like, yeah. Filling the, filling the world with more nonsense. Like, I don't know, it's like, I just kind of feel like. I, I wanna, if I'm gonna share an idea and put a camera in my face, I want it to be like a good, thoughtful idea that's actually starting an important conversation. I'm not just gonna go and like record myself, you know, doing nothing. Like, I just don't. And then when it comes to like, oh, you could make some cover songs or something, I'm just like, well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna play a cover song on camera that like, sounds just like the original that I'm just doing because I need to show that I'm existing and that I'm alive. Like, you know. Yeah. I can, if I have a really interesting thought about a song that, um, maybe I feel like it's never been played that way before, then maybe I'll go and I'll play it. Or if I really, really love it and it's speaking to me emotionally, but I don't really feel like making pointless content. Um, yeah. And I think that there with music and the word content, um, I just think it's a little bit different than maybe other art forms in a way. I mean, I, I bet like photographers really relate to this in a way because, you know, Instagram kind of changed the game of like what it meant to be a photographer. Yeah. And um, like all the cell phone tools that we have now, and there was fine art photography. There is, um, you know, there's, there's people who make their living, you know, doing, um, photography for clients, you know, things like that. Um, but then there's the content kind of photography that's just, uh, you know, just taking pictures of your food and taking pictures. Fire hose. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I just kind of feel, I mean, it's happening with everything. It's, yeah, it's, it's complicated, but I think with music and also like, Uh, there's a lot of essays on it, like the rise of wallpaper music. Um, so the thing with like Spotify and the algorithms of things like Spotify is that, you know, people are listening a lot of the time to Spotify just putting on a playlist that's mood based and they're not even thinking about what's playing. Um, it's just background music. Mm-hmm. And then, um, and then the algorithm, you know, just feeds you what you're listening to again and again and again, and just a different version of what you're already listening to. The algorithm isn't there to challenge you. It's not like there to like introduce you to something weird. It's not there to jar you. And so then the kind of music that ends up getting lifted up by these algorithms is really easy to listen to background music. And that is like, I'm not gonna shit on anybody that's good at making that stuff. Like kudos to them. Like kudos to the lofi beat makers who can make hours of Lofi beats and then get millions of plays on Spotify. But, and, and I would say that those p artists may not have a problem calling their music content uhhuh. Um, but for me, my music has always been really fucking emotional and like personal and I'm talking about my life. I'm like, even like sometimes at a venue when I'm like, I'm like, oof, man, am I in this space right now to like, go into this song, rip my heart out again? Yeah. So it's like, I, I do kind of feel like for me, I'm just, I can't turn the switch off and, and, and make my music not. An emotional investment. And so I think that content just pisses me off because, um, especially when somebody has the nerve to like call a songwriter like that their music content, you know, like I'm just like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I'm not asking, you know, I'm not, it's not like a do you know who I am kind of thing. But it's like you don't go and say to Joni Mitchell that, you know, blue is content. Right? Yeah. You know, so it's like, I just kind of feel

Chris:

like That's so interesting what you just said. It's so interesting. You know, you talk about feeding the algorithm and not being challenged. Mm-hmm. And it goes back to sort of our, um, Original question, hire for personality. Mm-hmm. Because when you're hiring for personality, really what you're doing is you're hiring for someone who's a lot li because you're gonna respond to someone who's a lot like you. Yes. Right? Yes. And so you're not being challenged if you're hiring for personality, it's, you're, you're sort, it's sort of hiring to the algorithm in a weird way because you're, you're like, oh, that's, I get this person. And, and yeah. And just like, you're just seeing, I don't know, you're seeing a reflection of

Alexandra:

yourself. Ooh, I love that connection, Chris. That is so interesting. You know? Yeah. So I mean, like, people need to dig deeper. Yeah. People need to, you know, and I think, and I think we could all challenge ourselves in different areas. Maybe there's one area that you do dig deep and then another area that you totally don't. Yeah. And like being able to recognize that, you know, um, that's fine. Yeah. And I think that, Yeah. And it's interesting, like, when it comes to personality too, I am an extrovert, so I've definitely gotten advantages because of my personality. Like I can literally, I, I'm not, I'm not like, I don't wanna sound like all full of myself, but I feel like I could, like, people think I'm their friend when I'm done talking to them because I'm like, cuz I'm a good, I'm good at being excited, you know, I don't entering the conversations, I'm interested. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm engaged with people, you know? Yeah. I engage with people. I find a common thread. I connect to people, you know, and I make that that's, and sometimes I think I dismiss that, that's a skill that I've actually learned. Mm-hmm. And not something that comes, you know, natural. Like it's something that I think I can dismiss it as a skill of mine because it comes so naturally to me. But it probably is actually something that has, is a skill that I've learned a hundred percent. Um, but I think that at the same time, like. You, I, I, it's just really important to have conversations with other people as well. Like I was kind of saying like in the context of recruiting, we have debriefs after an interview where everybody who interviewed the person is talking and we can challenge each other to be like, do we think that that person, um, really went into depth on their answer and, and, and fe like meant what they were saying? Or were they just giving the answer that. They wanted us to hear like, cuz there's also like this, you know, and so really thinking deeper, like just going a little deeper and thinking there's a place for everybody. I really feel that way. Like, whatever your skill is, you might think, oh, I'm never gonna get this to happen because my personality is like this. And it's like there's somebody out there who's also, you know, understands where you're coming from or there's some kind of job or some kind of thing out there where what you think is your weakness is actually your superpower. Mm-hmm. Like I found, I've had many times in my life where I kind of felt like I'm too emotional and I'm too empathetic and I'm too much, um, personality. And then I found this job that actually utilizes all those things, and I was like, oh my God. Like I didn't realize that those are, this job was created for me. You know? And even music, you know, like, it's like there's, you can't be too much of, of, of, of who you are when you're writing a song. It's like the more that you put yourself into it, the more that other people are going to love it.

Chris:

Respond. Yeah. You know, performing on stage, same thing. You know, there's,

Alexandra:

yeah, there's even like that joke with, with lyric writing that the more specific you get, the more universal it becomes. You know, maybe you're talking about driving, you know, down lakeway and missing a turn and like having to like, you know, in your rusty. Super. Like, I don't know. But the more specific you get, the more people are like, oh man, I remember that time I did that. I did something like that. And or, or they'll go and they'll get all philosophical with it and they'll be like, oh, that left to meant that their life is going in a direction, you know, who knows? The left storytelling. You have no idea like what people are going to pick up from, from what you are writing. Yeah. And what you're creating. And so, yeah, you'd be surprised at the, the weird stuff that becomes universal. I mean, and there's bands out there called Hootie in the Blowfish back in the night, you know? Yeah, sure. There's, there's weird band names out there that you're like, really? That, that stuck. Okay. Okay. Or you know, like when people try to like talk about who can sing and who can't sing. Oh, I get mad about that. Like, don't ever, like, ugh, don't ever tell a person they can't sing. Like Yeah. Who are you don't tell Bob Dylan he can't sing. Exactly. You know, like Neil Young, that, you know, there's like these really weird, but, you know, but back to that like algorithm thing with Spotify, I mean, those kinds of voices are less likely to get lifted up now. Like I, you know, a lot of people kind of say, would a Bob Dylan, you know, type artist, you know, find success in the same way right now with algorithms dominating so much of, of what we listen to and discover, um Right. Quote unquote. Yeah. But, So keep

Chris:

digging. Love that. We can talk, we keep digging. I think that is such a, yeah, that's I think one of the big takeaways is keep digging and look beyond surfaces. Um, yeah, because surfaces are in many, you know, surfaces are algorithms in many regard. They're performances, they're exactly what you want to see. And oftentimes, and oftentimes circumstance calls for us just to look a little bit more around corners and ask better questions and, and find out what really makes people tick as well as yourself. Yes. And that takes, takes a lot of time and effort and often I. We don't wanna put in that time and effort. Yeah. Like

Alexandra:

beyond the surface on yourself.

Chris:

I can talk to you for so long. What, what did you just say? I'm sorry.

Alexandra:

Well, look beyond the surface for yourself too. Like of what you're capable of and, and what you could fall in love with and what, you know, I think that has been a very fascinating thing to learn as I get older is that, you know, you can do a lot more things than you thought you could. Maybe when you were

Chris:

right. Yeah. What stories did we tell ourselves for all those many, many, many years that just aren't true. Right. Hmm. That's really valuable. Yeah. Or, or that other people told us that we believed, you know? Yeah. For so long. I mean, it's really important to, to shake that loose. Um, I'd love that. I'm gonna take your quote, dig deeper as, as your favorite quote. So I won't ask that question. Cause I think that really is the, the such a strong. I think that's really a, a, a, a strong message for people. Um, and it can mean so many different things. Mm-hmm. But just looking beyond, um, what you perceive to be the truth. Going back to don't believe everything you think, I think is just a, a real powerful, powerful message. What would you say to a young girl who wants to be a musician today? Mm,

Alexandra:

yeah, I would say go for it. Um, and pro protect yourself too. Like, you know, cuz the, the world is still difficult for Yeah. Um, I think for young girls and women especially, it is still a male dominated industry. Um, and I would say, you know, I don't know, like. Be you. Like, don't be afraid. And, and that sounds so cheesy, but it is just one of those things, there's a lot of things that people think are cheesy that are that true. The reason they're cheesy is because it's fucking true, right? So like, you know, oh, I can't write this song like this because it's cheesy, it's too cliche. It's like, well, you know, it's cliche because everybody feels that way, like in a good way. So like, you know, if you're writing a song that sounds like something that's already been written, it hasn't been written because you are writing it. So just believe in your voice. Like, believe in your voice. Um, believe in the things that you know, you have to say and the things that you wanna do. And, um, you know, but also like, let yourself change, let yourself be wrong. Um, Be nice to everybody, you know, until, until, you know, but, you know, have boundaries, but like, be a nice, pleasant person for the most part. Yeah. Um, oh my gosh. I haven't really ever been asked like that in specific, like, to what would you tell a girl? So that's interesting. I'm already getting like Big Mama Bear or something, like getting protected. I know, right?

Chris:

Um, I, I, I don't know, kind of can't remember the name of Taylor Swift's documentary that's on. Yeah. But it's really interesting just hearing her. Mm-hmm. I think she wanted to take a stand against some of the politics that were happening in Texas. C I think it was Marsha Blackburn. Yeah. Marsha Blackburn. Mm-hmm. And just the, her, her dad and her manager just like freaking out about it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and finally she just had to say, no, no, you don't understand. This is the way it's gonna be. This isn't up for debate. Yep. And, uh, I was, it's funny cuz I was reading a quote about that and someone commented, you know, even Taylor Swift couldn't get a word in edgewise when there were two men in the room, you know, and it's just like, wow. So you have to, you, you do have to just fight that much harder. Um, and, and for what you believe in for sure as a woman, I believe. Um, well that is just, and

Alexandra:

you're always going to get hate either way. Like, you're gonna get hate for not saying anything and you're gonna get hate for whatever, you know, you do say. So that's why really, you also just gotta do what feels right for you because either way you're gonna make somebody unhappy. And that has also been a very difficult thing to learn as a people pleaser person that I am. Right. It's like, uh, as an empathetic, you know, emotional person that I am, I'm like so much always trying to make everybody happy and then I just kind of realized, uh, that's not really possible.

Chris:

Right. No, exactly. And, and, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that, that right there is because trying to be all things to all people, boy, that is just a lost cause. And so you have to take a stand and you have to know who you are and really, and really live that truth. And not that it can't change, like you said, but mm-hmm. You, you have, you have to take that stand. Um, you mentioned you're not really big on social. I do

Alexandra:

it,

Chris:

but Yeah. Yeah. I know you came out with a record in, in 2022. Mm-hmm. Um, to, you know, something brighter, which is Yeah. That was, I've been listening to. I love, uh, I love the whole, what's the Tom Cruise one? Risky business. Yeah. Risky business. That is such a good one. Um, just some really good stuff. Do you want to tell people where to find

Alexandra:

you or, yeah, I mean, you can, you can stream my music on all the streaming places. Um, you know, so I think something brighter is the record that I'm like, I really feel like represents me and where I'm headed and the writing that I really love to do, um, like, you know, the pop kind of sensibility, but with honesty and heart. Um, so yeah, something brighter is out there. You can also, if you're in Seattle, you can go and buy it at Easy Street, um, in West Seattle. And I think that, uh, you can buy it on Band Camp. Today's band Camp Friday, the day we're talking right now. Um, so Sub Hop is actually my distributor and publisher. So Sub Pop sends the record out to whoever buys it online and um, yeah, you know. And where did you

Chris:

come up with the band name? Cuis. Tell me a little bit about

Alexandra:

that. I actually like got asked to join a blog when I was in college, and that was just gonna be the name of my blog because I liked clouds. And then it just kind of, I actually, my first name that I started going under was Little Ghost. Um, but then, and it was based off of a Mount Erie microphone song, but then I got kind of like, made fun of that. That was a little too, uh, fan, like, that was like too nerdy because I went to an corti all the time and hung out with those people. They were like, come on. You know? So then I was like, oh, okay. I guess I'll just call it Cumulus. And then that kind of just went from there. So I've been playing under that name since 2008.

Chris:

That is amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I cannot tell you, I can't wait to, to go back through this interview and just pull out the gems because there were so many, you know. Oh, and, and, um, just, From, from the word go. You've just been, you've been dropping on a lot of great intel that I think people can, can be inspired by and learn from. So, so thank you so much, Alexandra. I really want you to, to keep making the good stuff cuz you're, you're obviously extremely good at that and you, you know, finding the balance and the, and the, the clarity around, how you're gonna treat, treat music moving forward I think is really something to be admired. So kudos

Alexandra:

to you for that. Thanks Chris. Thanks for the great questions and great conversation. You bet. Thank

Chris:

you. Take care. Bye bye-Bye.

And so ends another episode of creative state. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to visit our sponsor creator deals.com. But even more importantly, keep making the good stuff. See you soon.