A Journey Through Ephesus: Ephesians 1 and the Plan of God

✨ We’re kicking off a brand-new series on the Navigating An Ancient Faith podcast with a deep dive into Ephesians 1. In this episode, we unpack big theological ideas like predestination and election 🧠, exploring how Paul frames them within God’s grand cosmic plan 🌌—a plan that brings unity and includes the Gentiles 🤝.

We reflect on how modern readers often individualize scripture, while Paul speaks from a deeply communal, first-century Jewish worldview 🕊️. Along the way, we share personal stories 💬, wrestle with complex doctrines 🌀, and offer a preview of upcoming episodes exploring temple symbolism 🏛️ in Ephesus.

Join us for thoughtful insights, honest questions, and timeless wisdom as we journey through this powerful letter. 🎧🙌

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Read the article 📖: Images in Ephesians

Explore 🗺️: Explore Ephesus

Watch 🖥️: The Erastus Inscription in Corinth

Buy the book 📕(Amazon): A Journey Through Ephesus

Buy the book 📕(Apple): A Journey Through Ephesus

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Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Ephesus and Its Significance
• 12:12 Ephesians 1:3-14
• 14:43 Predestination and Free Will Debate
• 32:03 Understanding First Century Jewish Perspective on Election
• 36:11 Philosophical and Theological Implications of Determinism
• 46:13 The Role of Free Will in Theology
• 54:26 Cosmic Implications of God's Plan

Transcript

Ephesians 1 and The Plan of God

JR: [00:00:00] To go back to the fairytale what was the line, but what can I do?

David: But what can I do? Yeah, that's right.

JR: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've lost my son to this dumb wager with the water nix, but what can I do? What? You know? Here we, here we are, right?

David: That's right.

JR: It's very the opposite of introspection. 

David: Well, we took a little break, but I was asking you if you've kept up on reading fairytales, because I know that even though our series is done, I've gone back and I've started to reread them. And it's interesting because I see things now that I didn't see the first time through.

JR: Yeah.

David: And I'm like, oh no, this is a great one. Why didn't we do this? You know? So I was just curious whether you had kept reading some of the fairytales.

JR: Oh man. Yeah. Well we mentioned that the Grimms fairytale book that you and I happen to have, have like 250, and there's obviously more than that. And so I, remember going through initially kind of starting at one and working my way through, and there were lots of them that I [00:01:00] was like, man, what in the world?

This doesn't make any sense. And sort of just kind of scrapping it and saying, ahh, I don't know what to make of this. And then moving on to the next one. But there are several of 'em that after I reread it, I'm like. It just is, yeah, much more obvious. So yes, I'm going back through the fairytales and it's interesting because if there's one that stumps me I don't just move on.

I don't just say, ah, who knows what that's all about. It's like, it's driving me crazy. It's like, I want to know what this means because there is an answer to that. It does mean something. And yeah. So yeah, I'm going back and kind of rereading and picking up on all kinds of things.

David: Yeah. Well, we talked about some ways we can keep that going because that was a fun series and we got some good feedback and yeah, I just, there's something about exploring those Grimm fairy tales that we'll have to keep alive somehow, so.

JR: Oh yeah. Well we talked about a YouTube series and I think, yeah, we'll definitely jump into that. That'll be fun with a little bit more graphical elements, you know, so people can follow along a little bit easier. But yeah, that'll be fun. So that'll be a little side project.[00:02:00]

David: Yeah. Hopefully we can find some time this summer, although the summer's flying by here, but

JR: Ali, tell me about it.

David: Yeah. But we <Yeah, well> start a new series that's a little bit anti fairytale because it's the Apostle Paul's letters. We're gonna look at the letter of Ephesians, which doesn't lend itself so much to talk about, you know, talking animals or, weird creatures, or anything like that.

JR: Right.

David: But still, it's just a different kind of series that yeah, it'll be fun to talk about for several reasons. We'll kick off today looking at Ephesians chapter one, but one of the reasons is that I think Paul's letters are fascinating, really understanding the cultural context. It helps to go to these places.

You and I have been to Ephesus.

JR: Sure, yeah.

David: We're gonna draw on some of that. And also, I'll just throw it out there. I've written a book, A Journey Through Ephesus, so I'll put a link in the show notes. We'll talk about that more too. So it's something that I have studied at length, the book of Ephesians, and there's a lot of great stuff in [00:03:00] there.

But for this series, what we're going to do is we're gonna talk about big concepts. So this isn't gonna be a Bible study. We're not gonna start chapter one, verse one. We're gonna talk about some big concepts and symbols that really help you understand the points that Paul is trying to make. And I found this a very helpful approach to understand a big concept here. Paul uses different words to describe it, and once you understand that concept, you go, okay, I know what Paul is talking about now. And that's been helpful for me. Yeah.

JR: Yeah. And it's actually much more important to understand the big concepts because it's so easy to dial into a verse or two. And people do this all throughout the Bible, but in in Paul's letters, especially is that it's easy to dial into a verse and say, oh, what does this mean? And how does this apply to my life?

And there's a space for that. But , you really need to understand the larger themes, to understand the broad picture that Paul's trying to paint. And that way you don't get caught in the weeds or caught into the, you know, some of the [00:04:00] verses we're gonna talk about today. They're easy, you know, they're sticky verses, right.

And, we wanna run a hundred different ways, with it. And yeah, you don't get stuck on a verse, or at least you understand the context of the verses when you understand the broad themes. So yeah, that's a good place to start.

David: Yeah. Yeah. So It's been a while since we went to Ephesus, but we went to Greece and Turkey about, I wanna say, gosh, it's been 13 years?

JR: I was about to say, I think it was like 2012.

David: 20, 2012, 2013. Yeah. Maybe something like that. But yeah, it's been a while now. And I remember the first time we didn't like Greece 'cause everyone was on strike. But we really liked Turkey.

And since then we've been back to Greece twice. And of course I love Greece. I'm a big fan of Greece now. But yeah, it's been a while since we've been there. But yeah. We stayed in this little hostile really nice guy ran it.

Went to the site of Ephesus. We went over to the Temple of Artemis, where the temple used to stand. And yeah, we had a great time in that. We went to a Hamam when we were there. [00:05:00]Remember that?

JR: Yeah. That was great. Yeah, that's, a good memory. Well, it was so cold. It was weird because we were there in the summer. Well the fall I guess. But, man, it was free. It even snowed. Remember like, just drizzle, on the way back from the hamam, it was freezing. And we went to the Hamam and kind of got our bones warmed.

And then on the way back to the hotel, it was kind of interesting because it was, you know, little light snow coming down. And, uh, I wasn't cold at all. It was freezing going to the hamam, but on the way home it was just like, oh, my soul is now warm. And, uh, yeah, the snow didn't even affect me, man. It was great.

David: Yeah. That's right. Of course, the centerpiece of the city is the great theater there that is still there. Now, you and I saw another impressive theater in Epidarus this last time we went to Greece. 

JR: Yeah. I think that was a little bit more complete.

David: I think it was more complete, but the great theater in Ephesus, I think it still seats about 30,000 people and they still have concerts there. And,

JR: Right.

David: so yeah. That was impressive. That's one of the main things you think about when you think [00:06:00] about the archaeological site of Ephesus. And that was impressive. Yeah.

JR: Right. And I'm glad kind of on all our trips that I saw the great theater at Ephesus first or early. 'cause that is the theater that you judge everything else by, you know, we'll see other stadiums or other theaters, we went to the one in Corinth and some other places, and every one of 'em, I'm like, yeah, this isn't Ephesus.

David: The

JR: This is nice. But it ain't Ephesus.

David: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Huge, huge. And the other thing about Ephesus is that there's a lot that's uncovered. There's a lot they've reconstructed, but when you see the rolling hills on either side of the main street there, I forget what <Yeah.> drag is, and you realize that they were all covered by houses.

JR: Right. That the terraces.

David: Yeah, all these hillsides have residential sections that would've been thriving at the time of Paul. And they're all still buried. There's so much they haven't uncovered because it was a huge city at the time.

JR: Right. And there was a big section of it that [00:07:00] was all kind of under this, not really a tent, I guess you'd call it, a permanent tent type structure that they were exposing. And it was just, yeah, you could walk in there and you couldn't really go down into the houses, but you were standing above it and you saw these terraced houses, and you realize that, man, this whole area, this whole valley was covered with those.

And yeah, it really kind of gave you a broader picture of what the town looked like, obviously back in the ancient days. Yeah, that was super neat.

David: Yeah, and as I recall, it was sprinkling a little bit and the terrace houses were, you paid a little extra, but it was undercover, so we were happy to pay it and get out of the rain. 

JR: Yeah, that's right. We had to get outta the rain. So yeah, we jumped on that. And then of course, the library of Ephesus is kind of this two story 30, 40 foot wall that was ornate and the building isn't there, but the facade is standing or the, it's been reconstructed.

And that just, it takes your breath away, just the ornate [00:08:00] front and the columns and the idea of, man, I would've loved to have walked in there back in the day and actually gone and looked at through the scrolls and things like that. But that is kind of a centerpiece of Ephesus.

David: That's one of the classic shots you always see when you see the city. And of course as the statues of the four virtues that are part of that facade. Yeah, it, it's impressive. There's a lot that's really impressive about the ruins of Ephesus right now, but it's a real city that Paul visited and we're gonna talk about a letter he wrote called Ephesians, although in Ephesians 1:1, I believe it says Paul addresses this to the saints in Ephesus.

And there is a little bit of contention about that phrase in Ephesus because it's a later edition and you can look at your footnotes in whatever study Bible you have. But it'll tell you that in Ephesus doesn't appear in our oldest versions, and we're not gonna get into that today. We've talked about it before, I think when we talked about some other, like [00:09:00] Colossians or something. But are some people who think that Ephesians isn't written to Ephesus. It may have been written from Ephesus because there really isn't a lot of other descriptors in the letter where Paul says, Hey, say hello to Silas over here and greet some other person because they hold some position in the city. So there's not a lot of descriptors in the letter that you can say, well yeah, this is Ephesus. Right? But tradition says it is written to people in Ephesus, so we're gonna go with that.

JR: Right, and by contrast Corinthians, it speaks of people in Corinth. You know, leaders of the time. You can look at our YouTube video on that. We talk about that. But yeah, he actually gives historical figures in Corinth. And to your point is that, he doesn't really do this, in the letter of Ephesians. And it does make you wonder, you know, was this letter supposed to be circulated to several of the churches in the area?

You know, <Yeah.> In an interesting way, would make [00:10:00] this message that we're gonna talk about more universal than it already is. Right? You know, it's already kind of a universal message, but in thinking about it, if it was supposed to be circulated to several churches, that would make the message even more universal.

David: Yeah, that's right. And there was some speculation that Ephesus was the major city in that region, and so he could have been writing to a lot of different churches in the area and they would've known about Ephesus. Of course, they would've traveled back and forth to Ephesus.

So one of the arguments I make in my book is that the images that Paul uses, I think do apply to Ephesus. And so, even if it doesn't, it all works, right? Because he's writing to these people. We're gonna go with the church in Ephesus. Paul spent three years there, two or three years. So he was very familiar with the city. And so that familiarity too, he may have not felt the need to say, Hey, greet this person and that person. 'cause he knew everyone, right?

JR: Yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense.

David: Yeah. [00:11:00] So again, we're not gonna go through every verse. That's just a little bit of background. I don't wanna spend too much time on it because we're gonna focus on the key concepts of several of the chapters. And so today, chapter one we're going to talk about how Paul uses the prayer. He greets them, he writes a prayer and he says, this is basically why I'm writing. But he uses that to say, this is why I'm writing you. And it's easy to overlook that because sometimes when Paul says, you know my prayer for you, and I'm like, all right, lemme, let's skip to the meat.

JR: Yeah. Yeah.

David: and skip the prayer, you skip over where Paul says. Here's what I'm gonna talk about. Right?

JR: Right.

David: In chapter one of Ephesians, Paul basically says, here's the big thing that I want you to know. Here's why I'm writing you. And you can infer what the issue might have been in the Church of Ephesus based on chapter one. And then everything else he writes after that goes back and reinforces that. So we've gotta start with the big idea that Paul is writing to the church in [00:12:00] Ephesus today. And so we're going to cover Ephesians 1:3 through 14. And we're actually gonna let you listen to it. And then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about it.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Winston AI: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ, for he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

In love, he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the one he loves. In Him, we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us.

With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ to be put into effect when the times reached their fulfillment to bring unity to all things [00:13:00] in heaven and on earth under Christ. In Him, we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will in order that we who were the first to put our hope in Christ might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory. 

JR: Okay, there you go. That's verses three through 14. And you're right. At first, listen, it just sounds like a big flowery introduction that we tend to kind of pass over and say, okay, let's get to the real reason that Paul's writing this letter.

But you're saying that it's actually in this flowery introduction that because there's so many words, uh, you know, we tend to just kinda skip by it. Right? It's like, ah, this is too much. Lemme get [00:14:00]down to where he starts yelling at people and telling people that they're doing wrong. Right, you know?

David: Yeah. That's right.

JR: Let's get down to the, yeah. Hit the drama.

David: Yeah. Let's get to the Armor of God, or let's get to the lessons for Christian households, right? But all those things are dependent on what Paul has just said in the introduction. And like you had said, if you really paid attention to some of those big words in that brief introduction we just listened to, there's a lot of loaded words.

Nothing controversial in there, right? Not at all.

JR: Yeah. Oh yeah. Here we go. Yeah, I picked up on the word predestined. I picked up on the word chosen. Yeah, there we go. And so, yeah, it's the endless argument that every Christian college kid has at two in the morning, right?

David: Yeah,

JR: That, you know, if we're predestined, then did we really make a choice?

And yeah. When I read over your outline, I was like, oh man, are we really going here? We're going here, aren't we?

David: Yeah. We're gonna step in it today, but look, this

JR: Well,

David: I don't know if people still have these arguments. I'm guessing they do. But, you know, I remember when I was [00:15:00] in my twenties, man, I had a couple of friends and someone, it seems like every other week, brought this up and we just sat there and talked about it and went around in circles, you know? Predestination or free will. What does this mean?

If you're part of the elect, did you have a choice. And all those conversations that we used to have All the time. All time.

JR: Oh yeah. They were fun, but after 5, 6, 7 years of it, it gets a little bit exhausting.

David: Yeah. Yeah,

JR: You know what I mean?

David: Well, and I actually reached some resolution on this whole topic, and I gotta tell you, it's part of some books I was reading, but it's also part of this letter because you dive into these words, and we'll get here in a minute, easy to bring our preconceived notions as to what these words mean, right? It's easy to read this like a theology textbook. And one of the things that helps me is Paul was not writing a theology textbook. He's writing a letter to his friends at a church where he spent a considerable amount of time, so he's not writing a theology textbook.

JR: Right.[00:16:00]

David: We can do theology based on all of Paul's letters. That's perfectly legitimate. But in order to understand his letters, almost like we gotta go back to the beginning and, push all that theology aside and just say, alright, what is Paul saying to his friends? And Paul is not having a late night discussion over beers about predestination and free will.

I'll start out by saying that right now.

JR: Ah, see, that's disappointing.

David: Yeah.

JR: It would've been better if that's, the way he addressed this letter, we'd probably have a little bit more clarity on it.

David: Wouldn't you like a letter where Paul just says, so anyway, Silas let's pick up where we left off. You know, when you look at the readings of Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin and all that.

JR: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Were the dinosaurs really. You know, were there really dinosaurs, uh, in the Bible or in in Yeah, you, yeah. You want 'em to have all those conversations that we have in 21st century, like I said, kind of college circles. [00:17:00] It's funny because just like you, I remember setting up till two in the morning with my college buddies, and then I had kids and they went to college and they just came home and they said, man, get this dad, listen to what we talked about.

And I'm like, yeah, no kidding.

David: Yeah.

JR: had that, I had those conversations 20 years ago. And, yeah, have fun with it, but don't get too bogged down or else your brain will melt or whatever, you know.

David: Yeah.

JR: You just kind of eventually have to move on from it.

David: Alright, so let's jump into this because in this praise and prayer that Paul has for them, he does throw out some of these loaded words for us, right?

Because in verse three he says "He's blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing. He chose us," okay? "He chose us in him before creation, to be blameless in his sight.

He predestined us for adoption sonship." Let's see. I'm scanning through here to the praise of his glorious grace, he freely gave us his love. And then it says, "he revealed to us the mystery." So he starts out with these pretty loaded [00:18:00] words. He chose us and he predestined us, which gets back to this idea of election, right?

JR: Mm-hmm. 

David: We're gonna talk about this here in a minute, but the main point of Paul's message is this mystery of God's will, right? What God is doing in the world, what is God up to? That's essentially the question that Paul is trying to give to this church in Ephesus that seems to be struggling with some things, right?

JR: Right.

David: So, yeah. Then it gets to the main point in verses nine to 10 where he said, "He made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment." And here's what he says, "to bring unity to all things in heaven, on earth, under Christ." Okay? Now, to me, that's the main point of Paul's letter. That's the main point of this entire letter. He's trying to say, I'm going to tell you the mystery of what you guys are wrestling with. Who knows, maybe they have been staying up late at night having all these[00:19:00] conversations, right? And Paul's like, look, you need to move past some of these loaded theological terms. 'Cause let me tell you what God is up to, right?

And it's this idea of bringing unity to all things in heaven on earth, under the person of the Messiah. 

JR: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because that language in verse 10, it feels massive, right? And right away it shifts our perspective from the individual salvation that we'll get into were we elected, were we not, it shifts my perspective from individual salvation to something more cosmic, right?

Something more universal. And so that's what he lays out in verse 10. So it's almost like, it's a perfect end to that introduction of those words of predestination and, chosen and things like that. Because it wraps that up by saying, this is supposed to bring unity, right?

And so this actual struggle that we have, it shouldn't be a dividing line. It shouldn't be a divisive idea. It shouldn't be a divisive theology. It [00:20:00] should bring unity. And if that's the purpose of it, then that's the way we need to read this. And so how can we find unity in this idea of, well, did we choose God or did God choose us?

Do we have free will or were we predestined, right? And the point of Ephesians in general is to bring unity. And so he's not trying to throw out this philosophical grenade. You know, if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound right? <Yeah> melt our brains, right?

That's not the point of this. What he is trying to do is to bring unity. And so when we read into it and find something divisive, that's probably a problem with us.

David: Yeah, that's right. Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?

JR: Right, right. Yeah. Exactly. 

David: And then we just go off on all these big intellectual exercises. And Paul. Paul doesn't want us to get distracted by those words that we're gonna talk about in a minute. He wants to bring it to this point. In fact, he talks about this is the mystery I'm going to reveal to you, and we're gonna talk more about that in a couple episodes, [00:21:00] because that has all kinds of connotations to people coming out of a pagan culture.

JR: Mystery religions And things like that.

David: Yeah. So we're gonna talk about that later, but this is kind of the tantalizing language that Paul is saying. Paul's like, I'm gonna give you insights into the mystery of the universe. This is what the creator of the universe is up to, right?

And so when you view that, I mean, that's a pretty heavy thing that Paul's throwing out there, right?

JR: Yeah. 

David: And I'll say one more thing about this idea of here's the mystery, and we'll talk about this in later episodes too, but to bring unity in all things in heaven and on earth. Now, there's a lot there too because, it's also going to inform this whole idea of what is Paul talking about when he's talking about predestination and being chosen and the elect, right? Because Paul says, this mystery is for all things in heaven and on earth. And this is another thing we're gonna talk about in future episodes here during this series as well. [00:22:00] Because for Paul, this is a cosmic thing. This is not about how individuals get saved, right?

JR: Right, right. He's unifying the spiritual and the the, what? The physical? He's unifying the heavenly realm and the earthly realm, which is not easy to do, right? We can talk in terms of science and biology, that is the material world, and it doesn't do any good to bring in heavenly ideas to that realm, right?

Because those are two different areas. Or conversely we can talk about the spiritual realm and therefore the laws of science and physics don't really apply to that. You know, there're two different realms and what Paul's trying to do in this letter is trying to unify these two dimensions, you know, not to get too sci-fi here, but yeah, he's trying to unify the heavenly realm and the earthly realm.

And that's the way I think they would've understood this. You know, because they understood that crops grow and here I've gotta go out and I've gotta raise food for my family and I've gotta live on earth and I've gotta live around these other people. But at the same [00:23:00] time, there's a heavenly realm that's going on.

There are spiritual forces at play in leaders and kings and in nations, and so he's kind of, you're right, he's starting off with saying, here's a mystery that's actually gonna unify these two ideas. And yeah, so that's a big deal for the listener of a first century Jew that's like, yeah, thank you for bringing something up that helps me tie these two very difficult ideas together.

You know? And so that's what Paul's gonna do here.

David: Yeah. And so there's one more verse we want to talk about and then we're gonna start fleshing all these ideas out because in verse 12, I think ' cause of verse 11, he repeats some of these words, "In him we were also chosen having been predestined." So he uses these words again, "according to the plan of him who works out everything in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ might be for the praise of his glory."

Now, this is a phrase that we have to understand. "We who were the first to put our hope in Christ." Who is Paul talking about, and you [00:24:00] mentioned this idea of, you know, if you were a first century Jew, right? That's who Paul's referring to when he says, "we who put first our hope in Christ." Sometimes he refers to the Jewish people as the first fruits of what God is doing, right?

JR: Yeah. Depending on your translation, that may be what it says. First fruits.

David: Yeah. Yeah. It may say First fruits. Now this is important because when Paul is writing to the church in Ephesus, this is primarily not Jewish people. Okay? So first of all, he addresses them as saints. So these are people who have already professed to follow Jesus the Messiah.

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: That's gonna play into our conversation. But he's not talking to Jews either. Now there probably were some Jews there, but he's probably addressing mainly Pagan converts, right?

Whose whole worldview is, you know, like you, what you were saying, this spiritual realm where the Olympic gods, who live over in Olympus and they're controlling all [00:25:00] these things behind the scenes, and how do I bring that into now, you know, my faith in the Messiah.

So that's their worldview that they're trying to convert over. But this is important because he said "that we, who were the first fruits, okay, might be for the praise of his glory." Now, verse 12 and 13 are important because when he's saying this and you are a pagan convert, you might have a tendency to think, well how does this apply to me? Paul's drawing off Old Testament imagery. He's talking about Jews who were the first fruits. And you might think to yourself, well, this doesn't really apply to me, right?

JR: Right.

David: And I think this is one of the key things that Paul's addressing in this letter, because in verse 13, then he says, "and you also were included in Christ." Now that should tell you right there that he's talking now to Pagan converts who aren't Jewish.

JR: Right. There's a, we-you distinction in these two verses.

David: Exactly. Yes. And it's [00:26:00] this whole idea of unity, right? Because there's two distinct people he is talking to. But he's already said the mystery is that God is bringing unity to all things. So there's no more of this divide between Jew-Gentile if you are following the Messiah, right?

JR: Yeah, he starts off with a language of us and them, which sounds divisive, but that's the reason he uses it to say, and he'll get into this more in chapter two in the reconciliation chapter. But yeah, that there is no us and them anymore. There is no we and you. But to start off, he's using that distinction to your point about communicating with his audience, the we is the Jews.

'cause Paul was a Jew and, and then the you or the them are the recent Gentile converts.

David: Right. Who are still saints, because that's who he addressed. They're still saints, but they're not Jewish. So when Paul says, God's got this plan for the Jewish people, here's what he is doing. He goes out of his way in verse 13 to say, "and you also were included [00:27:00] in Christ when you heard the message of truth," talking about when they heard the message from Paul when he was there, "the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked with him with the seal, the promised Holy Spirit." And so I think what Paul is doing in this letter is he is trying to convince or remind an entire Church of Pagan converts that they are part of this plan of God. They're not an afterthought, right? They are part of the plan of God.

JR: Yes, even though they weren't born into it by blood being a Jew.

David: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Okay. So that concept I think is really important because that's going to shape everything else we talk about today, right? This idea that he's trying to say, you were also included in this plan of God, and God is bringing unity to all things through the Messiah, right? And

JR: Right,

David: Now with that in mind, we can go back and look at some of these words that kind of [00:28:00] loaded, you know, they're theologically contentious, and try to understand why Paul, because he does, he uses it several times. He talks about predestination, he talks about election or the same idea chosen.

That's what election is. It's being chosen, right? And so what is Paul talking about when he is talking about these things?

JR: With that context, of course, I'm gonna jump into the book of Enoch and isn't the book of Enoch where the, the nations are divided up. But God chose Israel to represent his nation, right?

David: Is it Deuteronomy 32 also?

JR: Yes. I don't know where that's clarified, but basically that the nations were divided up, but God chose the Israelites, the Jews, as his chosen nation. And so that idea of, I chose you I mean you gotta filter it through that lens of going back to creation where God said, I'm gonna choose this one nation.

The other nations are gonna be run by other members of the holy council, but I'm gonna choose this one [00:29:00] nation as sort of a, what a standard bearer for my name. And so when you have that idea of election and chosenness, we'll say that that's how I view that.

Or it's difficult to understand it without understanding that lens that God chose the nation of Israel to be a standard bearer for my name, eventually sending Christ to bring everybody under the same tent. But initially, I chose this one nation as an example for all other nations.

David: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. The background, why Paul's pulling these words in and you know, so he uses chosen, which is kind of the same thing as election and chosen it can mean anything from choosing something for yourself to, calling some out among the many, right? I'm choosing this people. The reason why Paul uses that is because he's a Jew and he's pulling off Old Testament theology, right?

So when he's talking about the elect or the chosen, he's talking about the nation of Israel because they were God's [00:30:00] chosen people, right?

JR: Right.

David: Just what you said. So one of the things that I think is funny, 'cause I run into people every now and then, I had a friend who said that they had a relative who was hostile to Christianity because they didn't think it was fair that God chose Israel.

And you know, you run into that every now and then. But when you really understand what God chose Israel for, right? It's going to be like, I'm gonna give you these, it's almost like I'm gonna give you this impossible law and you're gonna fail. And that's gonna show everyone that that's not gonna work this way.

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Just because you're chosen doesn't mean you win the lottery, right? You're chosen for something else. So yeah, understand what you're chosen for first. You know, before you start saying, well, that's not fair, you know?

David: Yeah. So when

JR: maybe you don't wanna be chosen.

David: Yeah, yeah. It's like, I'm choosing you for a special assignment and you're like, oh, goody. And it's like, by the way, you're gonna fail. And you're like, wait. Does that mean I, you know, okay,

JR: Right?

David: How special am I now, right?

JR: Yeah. 

David: That's [00:31:00] essentially, or that's part of at least what it means that God chose Israel. You're gonna be my people. And yeah, you brought up that whole idea of the 70 nations that were ruled by other spirits that were supposed to almost act like guardian spirits.

And instead, they rebelled against God and they accepted worship for themselves. And that's where all these pagan gods come into play.

And God said, okay, you're gonna be the light bearer, even though essentially what you're gonna do, is gonna be, what a failure, right? And I'm gonna have to step in and do something else, but we're gonna go with this for a while. Right? So yeah, that's what it meant that God chose Israel and that's why Paul's using these terms like chosen or the elect.

JR: Right.

David: He's referring to the Jewish people of the Old Testament.

JR: Yeah. And, anytime. Well, really anytime you read the Bible, it's important to know who the audience is. But I think it really helps, especially in these verses to consider how a first century Jewish reader would hear [00:32:00] these words. Right? Because it's so different from how we hear 'em today.

David: Yeah.

JR: You know, for example, when the first century Jew heard the word chosen or election, they weren't thinking about salvation, in the modern evangelical sense that we think about it.

David: Right.

JR: of, they would've thought Israel's calling to be a light to the nations. Right? A priestly nations set apart, for a task, not a privilege.

To go back to the idea of, you know, you were chosen to win the lottery, right? Now you're, you were chosen for a task. And so predestination too would've been about God's kind of long range covenant purposes, not a rigid list of who gets into heaven and who doesn't get into heaven, right? It was communal, right?

it was rooted in the story of God working through a particular people group. And today we hear those terms and we immediately think in terms of the individual, right, the individual fate. Am I in or am I out? But likely they heard it as what is God doing with us? What is God doing with this nation of Israel and what's our role in [00:33:00] his plan, right? And that shift changes everything about the way I understand those two words.

David: That's right. Yeah. So you brought up the word predestination. Which and I think you're exactly right, which is that this was a multifaceted plan that God launched from the beginning. God knew where all this was going, right?

He knew the nation of Israel ultimately would not stay faithful and that he would need to send a Messiah to complete this plan of bringing unity to all things in heaven and on earth, the spiritual realm and the earthly realm, right?

So that's what that idea of predestination is, that God launched this plan from the beginning, knowing how it was going to go down. There were gonna be different phases to it.

JR: Yes. Right.

David: And so then to your point, then we have developed this theology of predestination that basically said God chooses beforehand who will be saved and who won't be saved. And it's very individualized, which [00:34:00] again, I hope people are seeing now that this is not something that Paul ever really intended is that he's talking about how individuals be saved. That's not what he's talking about.

He's talking about the role of Israel being God's chosen people. And now that the Messiah's come, now, it's almost phase two, and he's telling this Gentile church that they're included in that plan, right?

JR: Yes. Yeah. For me here, the key is realizing that Paul isn't defining who's in quote unquote, he's describing what the in group is for,

David: Yeah,

JR: if that makes sense. You know, 'cause we look at that and we saying, well, who's going to heaven and who's not? That's the way we view that. That's not what he's doing.

He's not defining who's in, he's describing what this in group was used for. How is this in the broader plan? And exactly what you said. Now we're approaching phase two. So now how does the outgroup play in to the fact that God chose this individual nation to be his Now, how can the Gentiles benefit from that?

David: Yeah, [00:35:00] exactly. And you're part of the plan. don't, I. He uses other language, like you're being grafted into, I think he says the root of Jesse or something like that. But you're being grafted into the tree. Right? And they would've understood this idea of grafting a branch into a tree. It's still one tree, but now you've grafted a completely different plant into it.

JR: Yeah, it's that image of the old and the new or the original and the new graft, which again, is just unifying language. It's not divisive language, but somehow we take it surprise, surprise us, moderns, take it and figure out a way to divide us.

David: Yeah, so we've come up with this whole idea of predestination and election. You see it in more Calvinist theology, you see it in some Reform theology. And, you know, I don't want to get into, start stepping on people's toes, but all those theologies really revolve around whether or not God chose you beforehand as an individual to be saved. Can you be saved if God didn't [00:36:00] choose you? Right?

JR: Right, right.

David: And that's where we get into these late night, you know, go round and round. Is there such thing as free will or is it all predetermined? Right? All these things.

JR: Yeah. Well, I think I said before, when we were talking, before we hit record. These are fun conversations but , in a way, they're just not helpful. I was reading a book, it's been about a year ago, I was reading a book and it was talking about you know, it's basically saying that this world is a simulation or the theory that this world's a simulation, right?

Because I love this kind of nonsense. But, uh, anyway, he, and he lays out his case and it's interesting and fun and things like that. It's a fun, like, again, it's a fun thing to, for your mind to run down that rabbit trail. But about three quarters of the way halfway, three quarters of the way through the book, I just remember the light bulb going off over my head and thinking, well, look, even if you're right it's not helpful.

It doesn't change anything. What's the difference now? I mean, am I, am I gonna not love my kids the same way? Am I gonna change the way I live my [00:37:00] life because we're in this computer simulation and not the real world? It's interesting, but it's not helpful. It is just not a helpful way to change the way I live my life.

And I kind of view this argument again. It's fun to set up at two in the morning, but I feel like I'm about to step on toes here. But at the end of the day, it's very difficult to say I was predestined and so therefore I'm going to live my life this way, right? I just don't think it's gonna change the way you live your life.

Right? Whether you were or whether you weren't. The reality is we still live our lives as if I chose to do this, do A or do B, you know, I don't know how you live your life any other way. And so to take that away again, it's an interesting philosophical exercise, but it just doesn't help you live your life any different.

David: Yeah, that's right. And it's not just a theological argument. About a year ago or last year sometime, I noticed a book, it was called, Determined by a guy named Robert Sapolsky. I [00:38:00]think he teaches at Stanford. Although I'm not sure about that. But I was kind of curious 'cause I kept seeing this book pop up and Determined that he basically argues for a hard determinism from a purely materialistic point of view.

Like, you know, your biology, all that it basically is hardwired you to make the choices you've made.

JR: Oh, this is not a biblical book or anything like that.

David: No.

JR: A biblical commentary. I gotcha. Okay.

David: Purely secular book and he,

JR: Right.

David: he purely argues from philosophy, science, things like that. So it's not just, you know, a theological argument. It's this whole debate and you mentioned the book you read, whether we all follow kind of this predetermined path or whether there is anything such as free will, right?

And it's kind of curious to me, I dunno what you think, it's kind of curious to me, why kind of a determined or we're living in a simulation or if you get into the theological realm, why things like individual election. Why, I dunno, why do you [00:39:00] think that's attractive to people? Do you have any thoughts on that? 

JR: Well, that's a good question. I think, well, first of all, I think the attraction, the initial attraction is inside information We all want to know if aliens exist; we all wanna know if, you know, we just want the inside information and you know, we all wanna know who's on the Epstein list.

It's like if there's something interesting about secret information that's out there that nobody else has, but that I'm privy to. And so I think that's at least what draws us into those ideas of, man, what if, what if it is a simulation? What if you know, well we'll just stick with the simulation.

What if it is a simulation that makes, that makes, it's an interesting

David: Yeah. What if it's all the matrix, yeah.

JR: Right? Yeah. That's what was so great about that movie. It was just, it was so fun for your mind to run down. Wow. What if this is all the matrix? It's a fun idea. So I, think that's what draws us in initially is kind of inside information, secret information kind of, to what Paul was saying at the beginning is, here's [00:40:00] a mystery for you.

It's like, man, you got me. You know, that's all you had to do was say, here's a mystery, here's a universal mystery. And I'm all ears. 'cause I wanna know, I wanna know what the secret is. Right? And so I think that's what draws people into these things. What are your thoughts about it?

David: Yeah, I would say, there's definitely that appeal of inside information, but I also think, I see this in religious and non-religious people, I also think there's something mildly appealing about a theory that lets me off the hook for personal responsibility, right?

JR: Yes. Yeah. De it's definitely what ties those three wild ideas together is personal responsibility. You know, the determinism, the election and the we're in a simulation. It's almost like you could see the draw being well, I mean, how am I responsible for what I do then, you know, and that really will change the way you live your life.

David: You know, if I totally mess up my life, like, hey, that's just the simulation I'm in, right? There's nothing I could have done. 

JR: I got the bum draw. Yeah. Right.

David: [00:41:00] And so I think there is some appeal to that. And you see that in the political realm. You see that in the philosophical realm, that there's a draw to say any theory that kind of lets me off the hook for my own shortcomings or what I do with my life has some kind of appeal to it. And I even see that in the religious, I, I'm gonna step on some toes here for a sec, but I even see that in the religious realm too, is if I believe wholeheartedly in election, then I'm - to use the, you know, language - I'm saved no matter what, right?

And there's no real responsibility for me to live in such a way as to what maintain or preserve my salvation or make sure that I remain faithful to the end. And which I think it circles all the way back to what you said in the beginning is that it's not a practical way to live. 

JR: Right. Yeah. That's not a helpful way to get better at anything. I mean, just take away everything we're talking about. When you talk about personal responsibility, the reason we adopt personal responsibility is because [00:42:00] we are the only ones who can change ourselves. I can't change you, I can't change what's going on in the world around me to a large degree, but I can change the way I view it, and I can change the way I look in the mirror every morning and say, okay, how am I going to adjust myself for the way the world really is?

And that's what, growth is. And so exactly what you said is, I think you're right. I think it draws from the idea of the dangerous idea that I'm not really responsible ultimately for where I am in life. And again, if I'm in a bit of a bum spot, if I've kind of made a mess of things that's just my lot and, this was God's plan all along, or, you know what I mean?

And, and you're right, it abdicates personal responsibility. And I think you mentioned this, that this is used in religious circles also. Not just Calvinist, you know not just in that argument. You hear it sort of, what's the term? I, I guess it is determinism.

There is sort of this idea sometimes that if your [00:43:00] life is a mess and your wife left, you and your kids aren't talking to you, that there is sort of a tendency to have a response of, Hey, this is my cross to bear and this was God's plan for my life. And he brought this good out of it. And listen, there's nothing wrong with trying to find the silver lining of a difficult situation, but a little bit too much of that is pushing responsibility away.

And you'd never look in the mirror and say, well, you know, maybe I wasn't the best husband or the best dad and maybe I could have done better. And a little bit of that, too much determinism sort of just, I don't know, you throw your hands up a little bit and you sort of say, well, that's just the way it is. To go back to the fairytale what was the line, but what can I do?

David: But what can I do? Yeah, that's right.

JR: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've lost my son to this dumb wager with the water nix, but what can I do? What? You know? Here we, here we are, right?

David: That's right.

JR: It's very the opposite of introspection.

David: That's right. In that moment, the Miller fell back into a [00:44:00] deterministic philosophy, right? That was really appealing to him at that moment.

JR: Yeah. Yeah.

David: This is,

JR: This was destiny. This was fate.

David: fell. And you know, I, when you were talking, hear a lot of religious people use a verse like Romans 8:28, you know, which says, "We know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who've been called to his purpose." And again, sometimes we put a deterministic spin on that as well, because you know, well, if I've fallen on hard times and my marriage fell apart and my kid turns out to be a jerk, it's like, well, look, we all know that things work out the way God wanted them to. And it's like, really, like this is the outworking of God's plan.

JR: Yeah.

David: But I think in the moment it's appealing. It's appealing to fall back on that, you know? And Romans 8:28, that's another verse that like, I don't think that's like, I don't think that verse means what you think it means. You know, it means that whatever point we're at, whatever we're going through, God can take us in that [00:45:00] moment and use it for our learning and good and development. It doesn't mean that we were predetermined to go through something like that, though, is the way I would put it, you know?

JR: Yeah. And I think that's just one of those things that people say when they don't know what to say type of thing. You know, somebody's died and well, they're in a better place. I mean, there's truth to that, but it's just like, I don't know what else to say. What else am I supposed to tell this guy right now?

You know? And so maybe the Romans 8:28 is, yeah, you can just always pull that outta your back pocket no matter what's going on. It's like, well, you know, God's gonna work all this together for good.

David: Yeah. That, yeah, that's right.

JR: Yeah. To avoid an awkward conversation pretty much.

David: Yeah. It's just funny how when you look at what people say they believe, and then some of the things we say, and I'll put myself in that in a moment to kind of, you know, ease the pain or justify some things. Sometimes there's a disconnect and I think that's what happens with determinism or this thing like predestination or anything like that, where it's like, [00:46:00] well, this was really unavoidable. I had to go through this. This wasn't gonna work out any other way. And I'm not sure that, well, I think we're not revealing anything.

I'll speak personally that that's not the way I understand any of this. And in fact, as I read through the Bible, especially the Old Testament, and I think about what I've read in more Eastern theology, that free will is a very important part, my opinion, of the whole gospel message.

JR: Oh, absolutely.

David: You know?

JR: Absolutely. Well, to go back to Romans 8:28, I view that verse specifically. I see that as God working with our choices, not steamrolling over them, right? And that's a whole different kind of sovereignty. And so when you, when you think of it and to go back to the determinism, you know, if you look at it as well, this was never a choice to begin with.

God was sovereign. I view it exactly like you said, free will is so important to development, to personal responsibility. And I see [00:47:00] these verses as saying, God's gonna work with our choices. Good or bad, you know, any dumb thing, I, do God can turn it into something decent moving forward.

But even that statement right there means that God's not superseding my choices. He's working with them. And again, that's a whole different theology.

David: Yeah. And just as you were saying that, I think we've talked about the example of Pharaoh the Old Testament.

JR: Right.

David: God hardened his heart. And it's easy to point to that too and say, well, see, there you go. God's determining things, right?

JR: Right.

David: But, it also said Pharaoh hardened his heart, and I think the nature of God throughout the Bible is that just what you said. God works with our choices. So to a large extent, if Pharaoh is hardening his heart, if Pharaoh is turning against God, if he is rejecting God, then God can say, look, I can work with that. You know, I'll use it for my glory, and I'm just gonna continue to push you in the way that you're already going, right?

JR: Yeah. If you think that your personal choices are going to derail [00:48:00] God's broader plan for society, for the world, you know, well, that's, pretty big of you to think that. But at the same time, if you think that my choices don't matter and that well what will be will be, and I really don't have a choice.

Well, again, You're almost putting too much on God's plans, that they're that granular and that detailed that there is no free will. And, to go back to what you said about Pharaoh God was working with the heart that he already knew he was dealing with, right?

He knew exactly how he could use Pharaoh's hard heart to free his people. He knew exactly how he could pull that into his plan. But Pharaoh still had a hard heart, right? He still made that choice himself, right? And it is, it's hard and it feels like you're splitting hairs a little bit with these verses.

But if you don't have that understanding of God's sovereignty being that God's ultimate plan is going to happen, whether I make the choice to follow him or not, right? If you don't see it in that, then you really can get into all these kind of tangents that take you in these [00:49:00] strange places that make you say, well, why would I evangelize if it's already predestined? Or what choice do I have if some are predestined and some aren't? And to go back to the idea, it's just not helpful way of moving forward in life on a personal level, much less, God's ultimate plan and understanding how that's gonna play out.

David: And I think we did say this, but it bears mentioning again now that we've gotten into the weeds here with some of these terms, but there is something that is predestined, right? And that's the plan of God.

But that does not filter down all the way to the point where everyone's individual choices are also predestined.

Because I've heard people make the argument that, well, look, how can God predestine his plan if he doesn't predestined everything? If he's not in control of the whole board.

And you just gotta think of some examples where you can guide a plan along, even though what you don't have control of everything that's going on on the board, so to speak, right? You

JR: Oh yeah. Do I do it with my kids all the time.

David: Okay. [00:50:00] You, you beat me to that example, but I was gonna bring up the example of children, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I completely, completely manipulate my kids.

David: So your kids had no free will, is that what you're saying? They.

JR: Uh, yeah, I was about to say, I'm sure they outsmarted me a time or two, but for the most part it was all part of my plan.

David: Well that, that's, so that's a good example. Joking aside, is your kids have free will and yet you were definitely guiding them in a certain direction, right? And you had some guardrails probably around their behavior. And look, it was no guarantee that everything is gonna turn out great.

In your case though, you've got some good kids. But yes. But you were there guiding things along and you might say intervening when needed.

JR: Right.

David: And so that's an easy way to look at how God can predestined this plan to unfold. And we're also told, if you look at the whole story of the Bible, that this is how it's going to end, right? God

JR: right,

David: will do this one day. He will [00:51:00] unify everything in heaven and on earth under the reign of Christ.

JR: Right. Despite some of our plans to try to undo that.

David: Yeah. Despite people who wanna reject that plan manipulate that plan. Despite the fact that we have free will and, you know, there's millions and millions of people making their own choices that God can intervene and keep his plan on track because he's God and we're not, basically. But that doesn't mean you have to <Right.> let go of free will.

JR: Right, exactly. 

David: Alright, so to kind of wrap this part of the theological conversation up, look, you and I seem to be in agreement on this. And I don't wanna be uncharitable to anyone who does hold to Calvinism or anything like that. The main point of talking all this out is that you can have those discussions, okay? You can agree with the things that John Calvin wrote. You can agree with other theologians, and that's fine and we can have that debate. The thing that I'm trying to point, or the thing that we're trying to actually point out here is that Paul is not [00:52:00] having that discussion here in chapter one. Paul is not saying, this is my theology of predestination and free will.

JR: Right. And if you're using Ephesians chapter one for a argument for or against something like that, don't ignore verse 10. The whole purpose of this is to unify and so let's try to find our unity in this. And again, if you disagree with us, that's completely fine. This is a very deep theological idea and it shouldn't divide us.

And foundationally when it comes to this argument, this debate. That's what it needs to come down to. It doesn't need to be something that is a divisive thing. It shouldn't be something that's a divisive thing.

David: Yeah, that's right. You might say, to use a term we use a lot, you might say it's an argument that's a little lower on the hierarchy. Because, at the top of the hierarchy is the unity of all things under Christ, right?

JR: Right, right.

David: So that's another way to think about it. So why do we talk about all this? Well, the point is that it's almost like you have to [00:53:00] acknowledge those words are there. You have to acknowledge those sometimes contentious arguments in order to move past what Paul is writing, and truly understand what he's trying to say to them, because it's not all that, right? So back

JR: Yeah.

David: to this plan of God, he's drawing on this idea of the Jewish people were the chosen people, they were the elect. God had this kind of predestined plan that now includes the Gentiles. And so that's the mystery that Paul is about to spend the rest of his letter presenting to these people. 

JR: Exactly.

David: Alright, so now that we've talked about all that and we've kind of defined some of these terms that you run into in chapter one, we can get back to the plan of God that by now should be coming clear, right? The mystery of His will is to bring unity in all things in heaven, on earth, under Christ. And so the rest of the chapter and the book is basically explaining what this means. So later on in chapter one, look at verse [00:54:00] 20,21. It says, "He raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realm, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked not only in the present age, but also in the one to come." Okay. Now there's a lot of words there, like rule, authority, power, and dominion, and really those are terms that Paul is using for spiritual beings and spiritual powers.

JR: Right. Yeah. For me, this is where Christianity becomes much bigger than this personal salvation or personal rescue on an individual level. It's about a cosmic upheaval man. It's about a new regime. It's about something cosmically that's going on. And that's something that I think when you read the Bible, there's nothing wrong with reading the Bible and say, all right, what does this mean for me?

What does this mean for J.R.? What does this mean for David? What does this mean for my family? There's a place for that and a space for that. But if you do that too much, man, you miss a, like I said, a complete cosmic [00:55:00] drama being played out and a huge plan for all the universe, not just the United States in 2025, right?

This, it's, it is a cosmic plan going on, and that the words God chose and God predestined. What that's saying is that God has a master plan for all the human race and yeah, that kind of wakes me up from seeing these verses as well, what does this mean for J.R.? What does this, mean for my personal salvation?

Right. And it gives, me the idea of a much broader plan. And I think that's the way to read this or a helpful way to read this.

David: Yeah. And you said for the whole human race that it's not just the human race, right? It's a plan for the spiritual beings. It's a plan for ...

JR: Sure. The unification of the spiritual world and the human world.

David: Yeah, that's right. And so that's what we keep coming back to, this idea of this is not just how an individual gets saved, right? Because again, Paul is talking to the Saints in Ephesus. He's not trying to say, here's how you get [00:56:00] saved. And then he

JR: Right.

David: you know, he's talking about this whole, I like what you're saying, the cosmic order of things is about to change, right?

JR: Yes. 

David: And look, this has implications, you're in the city of Ephesus, you're in the Roman Empire. This has implications. And this is what Paul runs into of, who is the true authority. Well, if you are in Roman Empire, you're like, well, it's Caesar over in Rome. And Paul's like, well, it's not, He can have his little temporal authority over there in Rome, but I'm here to tell you that this is not the authority of the universe, right?

JR: Right. And you don't dare say that unless you have a cosmic understanding of the world.

David: Yeah, that's right.

JR: You know what I mean?

David: Yeah.

JR: That's a, big thing to say unless you have a complete universal understanding of what God's plan is. You don't go against Caesar, you don't go against Rome.

David: Yeah, and so this is a big cosmic plan that Paul is talking about. So, the second part, God set it out from the beginning. So there again, we talked about predestination. So from the beginning, this is how God [00:57:00] had the plan unfolding. It was gonna go through Israel, then it was gonna include the Gentiles, and ultimately it was going to reorder the entire spiritual world and material world under the reign of Christ.

JR: Right.

David: The Jews were chosen for this task. We talked about that. The Gentiles are now included in the plan. It was always going to be that way. And look, another thing where this is not talking about individuals because we can say that the Jews were God's chosen people, right? In the Old Testament. Well, does that mean that every Jew was quote, declared righteous before God? And we know that's not the case.

JR: Yeah. Right, right. 

David: There are numerous example, right? So, you can speak both of the Jews being chosen and also understanding that individuals had to what, had to follow the law to be declared righteous before God.

JR: Right. Yeah. And listen, being chosen, I think we mentioned this earlier, it often means being broken or used for [00:58:00] the sake of others. And you think about Abraham, Moses, and certainly Jesus, they were chosen, but in the immediate future, It wasn't this great thing. It's like, all right, you know, crucifixion.

David: Yeah.

JR: That's, that's exactly what I wanted to be chosen for. Right? And so it's just this idea that they're chosen to live a sacrificial life. And sometimes it is an individual like Abraham, Moses, Jesus. But what you were saying earlier, it doesn't mean that since there are chosen people, that every one of them are going to make the decisions that are gonna carry out God's plan.

It means as a people, as a culture, they are going to represent God's plan and be part of this broader plan that we're jumping into phase two of.

David: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's a good way to look at it, is, I think what ultimately, you know, to kind of simplify this, ultimately what Paul is doing is he's inviting them to align themselves with what God is doing, right? Be a part of what is about to unfold. And that is an individual choice, [00:59:00]you could say, but it's not an individual message. I dunno if that makes sense.

And look, we come from a culture, especially American culture. We're so individualists, right? Everything is about me and my freedom and in some ways it's so counter to church culture is, Hey, come be a part of this people, right? Come be a part of what God is doing among these chosen people.

And now you're part of the elect too. So come join in and be a part of that and align everything about your life. Align it with what God is doing. So I see Paul more as extending this invitation for them to participate in this because my sense from this opening chapter at least is that the people of Ephesus had lost sight.

That they were really part of this plan, right? And so Paul's going back and he's reminding them and it's an invitation Hey, you're part of this elect. Now align your life with it. Right? It doesn't mean you can just coast through life now.

JR: Yeah, God has this plan and you can be a [01:00:00] part of it. It's gonna happen whether you're a part of it or not, but

David: Right.

JR: Hey, why wouldn't you wanna be a part of this huge shift in the way we view God's people, right? It's not just for the Jew, it's now for everybody. Why wouldn't you wanna jump on board with that?

But again, you're right. We wanna tie it. You're right, that man, our culture is so individually driven and I don't know. The older I get and the more I understand about other cultures, far east cultures, things like that, you realize that man, their cultures are much more state focused.

You know, you sacrifice the individual for the benefit of everybody. And when you understand and see that play out in other cultures, you go back to American culture and you realize, man, we really are very, very individualistic. And that plays into the way even that we read the Bible and that we get these ideas of, I, I, you know, I'm trying not to go back to the predestination thing, but it is interesting that it's our modern culture that jumps on this and says, yeah, see I was predestined, or you were pre, [01:01:00] you know, whatever. And it really does kind of come from an individualist understanding of the world and of culture and less of a, I am a cog in the wheel, so to speak.

And either extreme is not a healthy place to be, but we are definitely on the individualist side of things.

David: That's right. That's right.

JR: That this isn't about my spiritual journey, right? Ephesians is not about J.R.'s individual spiritual journey. It's about what God's doing through a diverse community of Jews and Gentiles.

And when you understand that, then you can kind of push yourself out of it a little bit and say, here's the broader plan. And again, you gotta think about it the way the first century Jews would hear this. And I don't know. That's just a helpful way to understand how Paul's setting the stage here.

David: Yeah. I think that's right. Alright, so anything else to add? I think we've beat that controversial topic as much as we're gonna beat it. So, I dunno if we've offended people, Hey, tell us we're wrong. Leave us comments, you [01:02:00] know? 

JR: Yeah, yeah.

David: That I read Ephesians chapter one, and it really does set the table for everything else in this letter of Ephesians.

JR: Yeah. And the conversation is the funnest part to me. Again, so long as it doesn't divide us man, let's keep talking about it. 'cause I'm more than willing and more than happy to entertain anybody else's ideas on it.

David: Yeah. And I do have to say that I do have a book called A Journey Through Ephesus. I'll put a link in the show notes and I will say it's one that surprised me 'cause I wrote it several years ago now and have since then written about Colosse and Philippi, but it sells copies every month and I'm always kind of surprised, you know, 'cause it's been out a long time.

And yet I'll look at book sales in the month and it's like, there it is, A Journey Through Ephesus and just keeps selling. So keep the sales going, selfishly.

JR: Well Ephesians is a fundamental book and it, plays into kind of everything of deep theology. And so, yeah, I could understand why everybody wants a different take or everybody wants to know how to explain it and how to make sense of it. [01:03:00] So, yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

And it's a great book. So.

David: Yeah. Thanks. Well, we're gonna talk about the image of the temple next episode because it's another thing where on the first reading, there's a couple of verses that seem to be mentioning a temple. But if you lived in Ephesus, the center of your life was a pretty large temple in Ephesus. And of course if you were Jewish,

JR: Right.

David: temples had meanings. So we're gonna talk about temples and what they mean and that's gonna help us understand chapter two.

JR: There we go. Okay. So we're gonna talk about the Temple of Artemis, i'm sure?

David: Yep. One of the seven Wonders of the World.

JR: Yeah. That, i'll be honest, I was disappointed. You told me it was one of the seven wonders of the world. We show up and it was a column.

David: You weren't impressed?

JR: It is a single column. At least in 2012 it was. So maybe they got a little bit more built, but.

David: Oh,

JR: I look forward to that. That'll be fun.

David: All right. So thanks for listening. Leave us comments, check out the show notes for other ways you can contact us and keep the discussion going, [01:04:00] and we will talk to you next episode.

JR: We'll see y'all.