Parables of Jesus: Revealing Hidden Knowledge

In this episode, we continue our exploration of Jesus’ parables by focusing on the theme of hidden knowledge and the mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven. ✨ We wrestle with why parables can be so challenging to interpret and how they reveal deeper truths about virtue, discernment, and readiness for God’s coming kingdom. 🙏 Drawing on vivid images—fields, lamps, pearls, and nets—we uncover how Jesus used ordinary scenes to communicate extraordinary theological insight. 🪔 Along the way, we reflect on the responsibility of spiritual leaders and the wisdom required to recognize divine truth hidden within the complexities of everyday life. 🎙️

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Transcript

Parables of Jesus: Revealing Hidden Knowledge

JR: [00:00:00] I'm trying to think of something insightful to say and I'm just kind, I'm still processing it. Yeah. You should have had this in the notes so I could have at least been ready for something.

David: So this is what came to me on Saturday when I was taking a walk, which is why it's not in the notes.

 Alright, so sometimes when we're on a roll, we jump right in, we schedule time to record, hit record, and we just go. And then other times, like today, just now, there was an hour's worth of troubleshooting audio and video and we're learning stuff about video. So yeah, about an hour ago we intended to start recording, but here we are just now starting.

JR: Yeah, it has. It's, it's been an hour, isn't it? Yeah. Well, we'll find out. Well, I watched our last episode for the first time on YouTube, and the first thing I noticed is I have got baby stuff in the background. I, I just didn't pay attention, you know? I just wasn't thinking that way, and so my background, I now I'm gonna actually focus on the background what's there, instead of just having boxes and, junk in the [00:01:00] background.

It's like, well, okay, let's actually pay attention. Yeah, you've got that cool background with the guitar and everything. Mine's just a, the bookcase is the best I can do.

David: that's my wife's. I'm not the guitar player, but yeah, it kind of serves as a decent background. But yeah, I need to be aware too of what's going on. I noticed too in one of those that the door was open behind me. So you just saw this dark hallway. I think we recorded it at night. Yeah, I think we're both just learning here as we're adding video to all this.

JR: Yeah, live and learn. But the episodes were pretty cool. I mean, I, I appreciated the video aspect of it. It just added a little bit to it.

David: Yeah. Trying to up our game here we can get through all the technical difficulties.

JR: Yeah. My goodness. Okay, episode two of the Parables. Last week we talked about what the seed, what was kind of the overall theme of last week, what would you say?

David: It was about, yeah, kind of about the coming of the kingdom.

JR: Right.

David: And you know, all those parables that said the kingdom of heaven is like this. The kingdom of heaven is like that. So yeah. So the coming of the kingdom, [00:02:00] basically the announcement.

JR: Right. Yeah. And, okay, so this week we are going to Hidden Knowledge. Is that right? Parables about Hidden Knowledge?

David: Yeah. Everyone likes a little bit of inside information, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. It's funny 'cause the first thing I think of when I hear Hidden Knowledge, I think of National Treasure or the Da Vinci Code or you know, this kind of spooky conspiracy. This is what's going on behind the scenes. That's not really what. Paul and Jesus and these New Testament writers are necessarily talking about.

But yeah. What are we talking about when you talk about Hidden Knowledge?

David: So one of the ways that the Kingdom of Heaven is often described is this idea that it's hidden and now it's being revealed. Right? And so that's very much part, and we're gonna see that in these parables today, but that's very much part of the Kingdom of Heaven. So, one of the things that we left off last episode that maybe we need to reiterate is, the Kingdom of Heaven is like this. It's like [00:03:00] that. One of the things it's trying to say is, the kingdom of heaven is not what you think it is. Right?

JR: Okay. Yeah. Right.

David: So that's a little bit of this hiddenness. And then today the parables we're gonna look at are really gonna get into this nature of this is something that's been hidden from view. People couldn't fully understand it until a key event. And that's the incarnation, right? When God's son, Jesus comes to earth. And what these parables are gonna tell us is a lot of these things now start to come together and you can start to make sense of what exactly God was up to. Right?

JR: Right, how many times do you read in the Old Testament and casually say, you know, this clearly points to the coming of Jesus. Like it's a totally obvious thing and forgetting that it was written centuries before Jesus, you know, to an audience that would've had no idea how to interpret the meaning, right?

David: Sure. Yeah. And there was some sense of people in the Old Testament understood the idea that a messiah was coming, [00:04:00] right?

JR: Sure.

David: that in, I mean, you can see that in Isaiah. You can see it in some of the Psalms, but they didn't have any real clear picture of what it would look like. Right. And so

JR: Right.

David: we even see the Apostle Paul looking back. In fact, I'll just read this now 'cause it might help. The Apostle Paul in Ephesians chapter three, he says, "Although I'm less than the least of the Lord's people, this grace was given to me to preach to the Gentiles, the boundless riches of Christ and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery." So in Ephesians, he calls the plan of God a mystery, right? "Which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things." So even the New Testament writers wrote in a way that acknowledged that, yeah, this thing that God was up to the plan of God, the kingdom of God, sending the Messiah, people kind of knew they had clues that, it was coming, but they didn't know what it looked like, right?

JR: Right, right.

David: So now Paul, at least after the fact, after [00:05:00] Jesus's death and resurrection, Paul sees it as part of his role is to make known what is now obvious to people what should be obvious to people, right?

JR: Which is why at Jesus is coming, there was sort of this debate of, this can't be our guy because we're looking for kind of a warlord, somebody who's gonna defeat the Romans, right? They saw it in the context of the moment in front of them. And so when Jesus comes in writing on a donkey, that sort of goes against the whole what they thought the mystery had originally revealed.

David: Yeah, you had these different groups of people who had their own idea of what the Messiah would look like. You mentioned kind of the warlord, the political leader, right? Who knows the Pharisees probably had some kind of high priest leader in mind, right? Who would enforce all the rules or something like that, or cleanse Israel. So you had these groups of people who had this idea of what this Messiah would look like, which is why go back to last episode, which is why [00:06:00] Jesus talks about himself being the farmer, scattering the seed and the seed is going to fall on all this different type of ground, right? 

And Jesus continually says, you know, whoever has ears let him hear. Right? Some people are gonna get this and some people aren't.

JR: Right. Yeah. Well, I just love that people saw it through their own kind of biased lens of what they wanted. And so what you said, the Pharisees probably thought, here's gonna be this dogmatic spiritual leader that's gonna cleanse Israel, the ones who wanted to defeat Rome or that wanted Rome to stop occupying their area. They wanted the warlord. And it's funny because they probably looked at their Messiah the same way we look at the end times, you know how we're constantly guessing the end times or saying

David: Yeah.

JR: in Revelation, Russia means this, and here's America and here's, you know what I mean?

We're always kind of putting our own context and our own spin on what the Bible's saying. But what we're gonna find out [00:07:00] today is there's a lot more mystery to it than simply saying, what does it mean right now in 2025? And how in the next four or five years can I what pigeonhole the culture into what Revelation's saying in the second coming, they did the same thing with the Messiah and the Old Testament.

David: Yeah, that's right. They had the clues and they formed their opinion about what this would look like. Even though by the time you get to the New Testament and when the New Testament people ask Jesus, you know, what's the end of the world gonna look like? And we've talked about this before, and Jesus gives it description and clues, but he also says, no one's gonna know when it's happening, right?

JR: Right, yeah.

David: So, there is this kind of, it's going to happen, but there's this gradual uncovering because it's a mystery right now, and that's very much how he describes the Kingdom of God when he's asked about it.

JR: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So where are we starting today?

David: So we are going to start in Mark chapter four, and then we're gonna be back in [00:08:00]Matthew chapter 13. But we're going to look at this idea of the parable of the lamp under a basket. And I chose this one because it's a very short one, but then there's a couple verses that the first time I read it, I thought, man, these don't quite fit together, but clearly they're supposed to fit together. So I don't know. Let's just , we're gonna play this one, Mark, chapter four, verse 21 through 25, and then we can come back and talk about it.

JR: Okay.

David: Alright, this is the lamp under the basket.

Mark 4:21-25

AI Winston: "He said to them, do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand. For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear."

"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you and even more. Whoever has, will be given more. Whoever does [00:09:00] not have even what they have will be taken from them." 

JR: Yeah, that one, it's a little cryptic. You know, nothing is hidden except to be made manifest, or in other words, the only reason certain knowledge isn't obvious is because there's a particular time and place or reason for revealing it. Right? So what do you, think is meant by that?

David: Yeah, so on the very obvious level, you don't buy a lamp and put it under a basket or under your bed, right? Today, we would say, Hey, I got this cool lamp and I put it in my closet. You know? Now unless you wanted to light your closet, you'd be thinking, well, that's a waste of that lamp, right? Because a lamp is supposed to illuminate things.

JR: Sure.

David: I think he's getting at this idea then that, okay, there is this hidden nature to the kingdom of God, to the plan of God, but it's never meant to stay hidden. Right? It's actually supposed to illuminate.

And that time is now, in other words. So the proper place then I think what he's [00:10:00] getting at, for the kingdom of God is it's meant to, okay, it's meant to light a dark space. Right? Does that make sense? And the time for doing that is now. So, he's acknowledging the hidden nature of it previously. But one thing that Jesus is doing with this announcement is saying now is the time that it's going to light a dark place if you're paying attention, right?

JR: Okay. Yeah. And I mean, is the implication that the prophecies of the Old Testament are gonna be obvious now with the coming of Jesus or, is there more to it than that? Is that just one aspect of it?

David: Yeah, I don't know. There's, well, like a lot of these, there's a lot of layers to it, but yeah, I think a lot of people, writers in the New Testament go back now and say, oh, now these prophecies make sense. Right?

JR: Yeah. Okay.

David: That's what Paul's doing. You see the people who what the road to Emmaus, there was two disciples, and Jesus actually, it says in that passage that Jesus actually sits there and [00:11:00]explains the prophets to them in light of the events that had just unfolded, right?

The death and resurrection. And then it's like they understood it. They got. Right. So there is this idea, that one of the things the Kingdom of God is doing is now it's making all those Old Testament prophecies and references make sense, if you're able to sit there and put it together. Which is why he continually says he as ears let them hear, right?

JR: Yeah. 

David: You either get this or you don't, is another way to say that, right?

JR: Right. And I love this saying, because, you know, he says it, I don't know how many times, but Jesus isn't saying, some people have ears and some don't. Right. He's saying not everyone has learned how to listen.

And it's sort of like that teacher, the Charlie Brown teacher, you know, the wah wah want wa And I don't know if that was meant to be such a, such an interesting symbol of how kids hear teachers. But yeah, you hear something, but you're not listening to anything that they say.

And so [00:12:00] understanding the difference between hearing and listening, like that immediately moves the phrase out of mysticism, right? Moves it more toward trained perception. So Jesus isn't withholding truth, he's like describing a condition that we have, right? It's something like that.

David: Okay. Yeah. Whoever has ears let them hear, so yeah, he's not, well, he is calling you to pay more attention. I really think it's one of those where once you start to get it, everything falls into place, but if you don't get it, it just remains confusing to you, right?

And part of the reason you don't get it maybe is because of your own preconceived notions and ideas. Maybe there's some, you know, some ideologies, things like that, that you have to drop. And that's definitely one of the things I think Christ is calling people to do is look, drop your preconceived notions, right? If you're going to see this clearly and hear and understand, you're gonna have to put aside whatever expectations [00:13:00] you had, right?

You're gonna have to go back and reread some of the Old Testament prophets.

JR: Right.

David: I don't know. Does that make sense?

JR: No, it does. I mean, that's why, I mean, and symbolism is a part of that, which is exactly why we're trying to develop ourselves and pass it along to others. When you're able to pick up on symbolic elements, then it really unlocks a whole new layer to understanding the scriptures and stories in general, even current events, right?

It's like understanding to read sheet music, which I can't do. So let's, I I don't wanna, yeah, I don't wanna misguide anybody, but to me, sheet music is just a bunch of dots and symbols on a sheet of paper. But as somebody who really knows how to read it, then the same page starts making sounds in your head, right? You hear harmony, you recognize patterns to somebody who understands how to read sheet music. And so symbolic reading is the same, right? Once you learn the grammar of symbols, stories, start playing [00:14:00] music instead of simply reciting facts or something like that.

David: Yeah, that's probably a good analogy. Yeah, people can look at a piece of music and they can hear the song in their head as they're reading the notes without ever audio sound coming out. Right?

JR: Right, right.

David: So, yeah, maybe that's a good analogy is that Jesus is saying if you're paying attention, all of this should start falling into place now. You know the,

JR: Right,

David: what is it that the music of Heaven should start making sense. You start to hear the song come together in your head, and it should all start to make sense, right?

JR: Right. Yeah. And again, to somebody who knows how to read that stuff, you know, a teacher would sit there and just correct a few notes and say, no, this needs to be a 16th, or this needs to be in E-minor. Or however they, you know, again, I'm talking outta school here, but yeah, they can correct it and they can say, this would make it sound better.

And, and, you know, it's like you have a whole new appreciation for something that nobody else can understand. Because you've kind of ingrained [00:15:00] that idea and symbolism is the same way. Once you really see it, man, it just pops. Kinda like we were just talking about how when we go back to the Old Testament, we see all kinds of places we're like, oh, that's pointing to Jesus.

But it's with our hindsight that we have that. And so, that's what Paul's talking about. The slow revealing of more and more information is going to reveal this hidden mystery.

David: Yeah. And the other thing I'd point out here is this idea of a lamp being under a bowl. No, it's meant to enlighten, right? It's meant to be put out in the open, it's the nature of the kingdom that was hidden and is now revealed. But Jesus, and I said this last episode, I really think Jesus is being self-referential here as well, because he's talking about himself.

Because one of the aspects of God's kingdom coming is the Messiah will initiate it, right? And so I also think it's cool that where he is saying, do you bring a lamp out and put it under a bowl? No, whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, right? He's talking about [00:16:00] himself here. He's talking about the fact that if you're paying attention to me and listening to me, it will become clearer and clearer who I am. Because we know that early on in Jesus' ministry, he actually never goes around and says, Hey, I'm the Messiah. Look at me, right?

JR: Right.

David: Right.

JR: But he would say things that made the Pharisees are like, Hey, I think he's calling himself the Messiah here, right? And you know, they're tearing their clothes and everything.

David: Yeah. But he never really says it, which just frustrates the Pharisees. And he actually tells other people who say, I think you're the Messiah. He goes, don't tell anyone. Not yet. Right?

JR: Yeah. Keep that to yourself. Yeah.

David: Yeah, so that's part of the, what was hidden is slowly being revealed as well, is the very character of who Jesus is himself as he's going around teaching these things.

JR: Okay. So if that's the meaning of this and some of these other parables what does it mean for us today, being that that's already been revealed? You know, we talk about layered meanings. Is there a way to read this that makes you think, well, this could also [00:17:00] be about ideology, it could also be about ideas, about information in general, or do you think this is, that these specific parables are specifically pointing to Jesus being the Messiah?

David: Well, I think they're pointing to the coming of the kingdom and Jesus being the Messiah is part of that. But I think there's something that, maybe a way to say it is every generation or every person has to learn how to see things for what they are every time. So it's not like, in other words, it's not like, well, we know all this now.

So this was all for them and nothing for us. No. I think this is an invitation to every person, to every generation to say, you have to learn how to see the kingdom of God around you, even though it's not fully come. Right? You have to learn and I, 'cause I do this you know, one of the things I've been praying in my prayers is help me to pay attention more, right? Because

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: I am sure that the kingdom of God is all around me, if [00:18:00] I would pay attention and recognize it.

JR: Right. 

David: Instead of just watching the news going, wow, this world's going to hell in a hand basket. You know?

JR: Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing we can do about it or Yeah, you're right. And yeah. That's a prayer we can all kind of ask ourselves or ask for is, kind of seeing what's happening around us instead of, man, it's just so easy to be distracted. We talked about that last episode, but yeah, it's just everything is so distracting that we have to do a better job at looking for the kingdom of God around us.

And to your point, if you ask for that, or if you're paying attention, you'll be blown away how much you see.

David: Yeah. So it's an invitation, I think, to understand the nature of the kingdom is to understand that you will have to pay attention to everything going on around you to fully recognize it. And if you don't, then you're gonna miss out on a lot of it. You know, if you just go, well, yeah, I got saved when I was a kid, I'm just waiting for God to return, so I'm good.

And it's like, no, there's a [00:19:00] lot that's hidden from you right now. You're not paying attention.

JR: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so lamp under a basket. What's our next one?

David: All right. Well, okay, so before we do that, I want to hit the last part of what was read because it says, "If anyone has ears, let them hear." And then he says, "Carefully consider what you hear. With the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and even more. Whoever has, will be given more. Whoever does not have even what they have will be taken from them." Now, this is the part that I read. I don't know what you think about this. I'll get your opinion. That at first I'm like, why does he say this right after that parable?

JR: Yeah, it doesn't seem to fit, does it?

David: No, on the surface, it doesn't, but it's clearly tied together, or at least the writer Mark here in recording these, at least for Mark, it all fits together, right?

So, I don't know, do you have any thoughts and this is something Jesus said before. other places too, whoever has, will be given more and whoever doesn't even what they have will be taken from them.

JR: Yeah, it's, [00:20:00] I don't know, it does seem to be like, it seems unfair, right? On the face of it. You're like, well golly, why can't it just be fair and distribute kind of a little bit of knowledge to everybody, right?

David: Yeah. Of our fairness society today.

JR: Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, the reality is, is you see, let's take something like int intelligence. You see an intelligent person, it sort of snowballs and it just builds on each other. And so a really, really smart person frustratingly can come to my job that I do every day, and point out things where I could be more efficient.

And you're like, golly, how could he figure that out that fast? But there are people out there that are like that, that have that kind of ability to understand one aspect of, to have knowledge in one area, and it actually, I don't know, it, it actually is applicable to other areas. And so in some ways, information and knowledge and mystery is like that, you know?

And so when it comes to what we're talking about in spiritual understanding is when [00:21:00] you have a layer of understanding, it's something like it unlocks understanding in other arenas of life. And so to the person who has some knowledge and some wisdom, they're only gonna get more and more because they're able to apply this pattern to other areas of life.

David: Yeah.

JR: Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

David: Well, I, yeah, I think it has to do with this understanding of the kingdom and your disposition has to be, you have to be open to it in the first place, right? And so if you're open and you're paying attention, I keep using that word and you're earnestly seeking of what all this means. What this says to me is you're going to be given more. They're all gonna click for you, right? It's all gonna start to fall into place. And we've talked about this too, like even symbolic thinking. It's like once you start to get it, it's like, oh, wow, I see it all around me. Right? I can't watch this movie the same way again. But the flip side is, if you're not open to it, something like [00:22:00] the little faith that you have you're just gonna grow what? Disillusioned You're gonna grow frustrated.

And so, what little you have is gonna be taken from you. It's, something like that. And if you think about it. Okay, think about it in terms of truth, especially today, right? If you're open to pursuing what the truth is, to reality, things are going to make more sense to you as you move through that. If you're already kind of predisposed to say, I'm gonna make my own reality, I'm gonna make my own truth, more and more the world's just gonna frustrate you,

JR: Yeah, right.

David: Right? And you're not gonna grow more frustrated and say, okay, well I really do need to pursue truth. No, you're just going to grow more and more hard hearted to use the term the scriptures would say, right?

I don't know, I think it's saying something like that.

JR: Yeah. Well, Jesus tells the truth in a way that only the willing can receive it. I think that's one of the big reasons why he spoke in parables is because it has this way, this indirect way [00:23:00] where if you're willing to receive it, you can understand it, but if you're, you know, he doesn't force insight, right?

I mean, he invites pursuit of this. And so again, you know, it's the understanding that Jesus is talking about. It isn't about intelligence, it's about posture. It's about having that willingness to receive it. And I think that's why he speaks the way he does.

David: Yeah, and if you think about it that way, it goes back to the parable of the sower and the seed, right, and the soils.

One of the things he's saying is if the soil of your soul is hard and rocky, then what I'm going to say is basically going to fall on deaf ears. You know, it doesn't say, well, it'll take root and it'll be there for a while.

He just says it's gonna fall on deaf ears. Right? So whatever you have is gonna be taken away, and that's how I think these parables actually start to fit together. The more I was reading these in preparation for this, the more I think, man, they really do interpret each other. And you can't [00:24:00] just take one parable and go, here's what this means.

You have to understand what Jesus has said in all these parables. And I think he has like 40 of them because they all start to interpret each other. Okay. Alright. Any last thoughts on that?

JR: No, I think, yeah, I think we pretty much covered that.

David: Okay, so the next one. A lot of these are short ones today, and then we're gonna get to a longer one. But , we're going back to Matthew chapter 13, and I'll just read these real quick. Matthew chapter 13, verse 44. These are really interesting to me. So 44 through 46, "The Kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy, he went and sold all he had and bought that field." Okay, now that's just a single parable, right? And I'll read the next one and then we can talk about both again. "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one great value, he went away and sold everything he had and he bought it." Okay, so two of those are very similar. They're definitely saying [00:25:00] something similar, but what's your initial reaction to the kingdom of Heaven is like what? A man who finds a treasure in a field.

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that one's interesting because in both of the examples, the men sell everything. They abandon everything else. There's all kinds of interesting ideas that we come across that we're like, oh, that's cool. You know, but I don't abandon everything else to follow this one idea.

And he's saying that the kingdom of heaven is, once you understand what the kingdom of heaven is saying, you do abandon all other, I don't wanna say ideologies, but you abandon everything else. And so I think what he's talking about in these two parables is he's describing a paradigm shift.

You know what I mean? I'm trying to think of an example. Think about how our understanding of the stars must have changed once we realized that the earth revolves around the sun instead of vice versa. Once that was proven, so many facts must have fallen into place for the astronomers of the time.

[00:26:00] You know? So a paradigm shift doesn't, it doesn't change the facts. It changes what the facts mean. And so nothing new is necessarily added, but everything is recentered around the correct object. And I think that's what these two simple parables are saying.

David: Yeah, that's definitely an aspect of it. Both of them go back to that idea of the hidden nature of the kingdom, right.

JR: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: I'll get ahead of myself, but I'll point it out now too. What's interesting is he's looking for fine pearls. So where do you find a pearl?

JR: In a clam

David: Clam

JR: oyster, is it oyster? Yeah. Yeah.

David: Yeah. Right. I mean you know, it doesn't look like a treasure when you pull up an oyster, right?

JR: Right. Yeah.

David: So even that idea, I, I like that idea that even that is, this idea of something very valuable is hidden out of sight and has to be discovered, right?

JR: Right. Well, it ties back to the seeds that fell on the beaten path. You know, you're not gonna find [00:27:00] transformative knowledge where everyone else is looking. It's always hidden. It's always off the beaten path. It's always whatever

David: Yeah.

JR: under the sea or, or, you know, stuck in an oyster or something like that.

Right. You know, it's buried and so it is an invitation to dig, it's an invitation to search where other people aren't searching.

David: Yeah. Yeah, and some of the details of this, okay, this is where I started to go back to last episode. So the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field. And I'm thinking, why would a treasure be hidden in a field, right? What's going on there? And then it's like when the man found it, he hid it again. And I'm thinking, well, why didn't he just take it?

JR: Oh yeah. He put it back and then bought the field.

David: Yeah.

JR: That's an interesting layer to it. Yeah, what? We well keep going.

David: Well, okay, so yeah, we go a couple directions here, but let me just start here. It's like, okay, what does the field represent, right? And if you go back to what we were talking about last episode, I think Jesus actually says with the [00:28:00] parable of the sower seed, he says, the field is the world, right?

JR: Okay. Yeah.

David: And it reminds me that you and I were messing around with that little AI Sora app and

JR: Right.

David: did you ever get access again?

JR: Yeah, I had to, yeah, I got it on my, oh, did you send me some more stuff? I need to check it. Okay. Well,

David: I was just asking. But you know, we made this little video a while ago. It was us talking about the parables, but we were set in biblical times and we were doing a rap.

JR: Right. Yeah, that's right.

David: So, what's funny about that is the very first line of that and Sora has a way of always putting out some kind of catchy tune. But the very first line of that, one of us says, yo, the field is the world. You know? And that, like, that simple thing, which is repeating what Jesus said. I was thinking about that when I read this again, because I'm like, daggum Sora, you're onto something there, right? Like,

JR: Yeah, don't give credit to AI.

David: Yeah.

JR: It's head's big enough already.

David: [00:29:00] Yeah, that's right. And then one of us says you know, and I sow seeds with a rhythm that swirls.

I don't know why I remember that, but I do. Right. We'll have to,

JR: Yeah, there you go.

David: post that video somewhere. I don't know.

JR: Yeah. We'll, put it up here. Yeah, we'll, we'll see. We can stick it up there.

David: Maybe we can stick it in this, recording or something like that. Or maybe we'll throw it on our Facebook page. Maybe encourage people to go subscribe to Facebook page.

JR: Drive traffic that way. Yeah.

David: I don't know. We'll try and do something with it. 'cause it really is, it's funny just for a ten second video, but you know, that idea of the field is the world.

Okay, so you go back to this idea then that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field. So the field is the world,

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: I, I can say, yo, the field is the world, right? But

JR: Right.

David: There's something very profound about that. So the treasure, and again. The Kingdom of Heaven.

But Jesus is also being self-referential here, I think. Right? He's saying the kingdom of heaven is hidden in what is now the world. All right. And I'm gonna go a lot of places with this, [00:30:00] the world being the place outside of the Garden of Eden.

JR: Okay.

David: Okay.

JR: Okay.

David: That's something we

JR: Post fall,

David: yeah, we were starting to hit on last episode.

And one of the things I did is I went back and checked some references and there's definitely theologians, some theologians, some of the early church fathers who had that idea that, kind of this idea of a walled field would have been a description of Eden, right?

JR: Right. I've heard that before. Walled garden.

David: Yeah. So outside of that walled garden is the world. The world with its thorns and all its imperfections and fallenness. So

JR: Right.

David: I don't know, I think, I don't think I'm off base here, but I think one thing not to be missed in this simple phrase, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field is the field is the world, and the world is the state that's outside of Eden. So one thing that's very profound that Jesus is saying here is the kingdom [00:31:00] of heaven is found in the midst of this fallen world, which is one reason why you don't recognize it, and you're going to have to dig to find it. Does. all that make sense?

JR: No, that's cool. I like that. That's cool. Okay. Yeah. So we talked about this in the last episode. We touched on it just a little bit, and I forget the exact context, but we were talking about Adam and working and things like that. I think one of my you know, we'll call it a theory is that before the fall, I think justice and wisdom and knowledge was self-evident in the way the world worked.

And after the fall, we have to dig for it. We have to work the ground. We have to, you know what I mean? And I think this plays into that idea that if you're looking for justice in this world, first of all, it's gonna be frustrating, but secondly, it can be found, but you're just gonna have to work at it.

You're gonna have to actually dig and work , by the sweat of your brow to have clear understanding of how this world works post [00:32:00] fall. And this plays into that idea now that we're outside of the walled garden. You have to dig for that, gold, for that treasure. It's not gonna, just spring forth and give itself to you.

It's gonna take work. Now, I don't really quite understand why he buried it again with this line of thinking, why he buried it again and then purchased it and then went back so that he could have the treasure. Like, why didn't he just take it?

David: I think there's a couple layers there. The first one is just if you think of, know, you and I travel throughout Greece. If we, if we were out walking one day and we tripped over something and dug it up and you know it was, Pandora's jar, maybe we, or you know, any antiquity, right? In fact, we were in Dion and we saw there were just statues laying around and we were looking at some of the statues going,

JR: Yeah,

David: we could just put that in our backpack and take it home, right?

JR: We can just take this, if we can get it on plane, right?

David: And it's just laying there.

JR: Yeah.

David: But look, if you've been around any [00:33:00] antiquity sites, you know, that's illegal. You can't do that, right? And so

JR: sure.

David: There's a layer here that I think what's going on is if you find something, you want it to truly be yours, you have to go about acquiring it the legal way. Right? Which is why he goes back and he buys the property and now says, this is mine, right? So there's no disputing that this is his. 

I don't know, does that make sense? I think of it in terms of antiquity. If I dug something up and I was like, oh, wow, there's a whole hoard of Roman gold coins here. If I wanted to be all in the up and up and legal, I might go buy that property first and then that's mine. ' Cause if I just pull it up and go, wow, this is worth millions of dollars. I mean, who knows who owned the field or whether it belonged to the state or something like that. And then it's like, well, that's not yours, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. It's just I'm having trouble making the connection of the Kingdom of Heaven,

David: Okay.

JR: you know? 'cause this all started out. The kingdom of heaven is like this.

David: Yeah.

JR: So [00:34:00] what is it about having true understanding? I'm just trying to figure out that little aspect. And maybe there's nothing there, but I'm trying to find that aspect of.

David: there.

JR: Okay, well, yeah. Spit it out. Help me out. 'cause I'm dying here. I'm trying to work it out in my head.

David: Alright, so the field is the world. I'm gonna keep saying that

JR: Okay.

David: Outside of Eden. So who does the world belong to?

JR: Satan or, yeah.

David: Right. Okay. And that goes back to that idea of, again, the birds converging on the seed and plucking them up.

And we kind of talked about how that's the fallen angels, right? So the world is very much governed and, and this is the mindset of Jesus' day. The world is governed by these fallen spirits.

JR: Okay.

David: And so I think what is getting at, there's a definitely, I think this layer to it is when he finds it, in other words, when he discovers what God is up to, he doesn't want to make it so patently, obvious that the fallen world [00:35:00] around him, that the fallen spirits go, ah, we know what God is up to. Right?

JR: Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

David: So he has to hide it again and then in his joy, acquire it properly. And then maybe you might even say discerningly, figure out how to fully reveal it. And again, I think Jesus is being initially self-referential here.

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: And if you play this fully out, then it goes all the way to the harrowing of Hades, right? That when Jesus dies on the cross, the spirits of the world say, yep, we got him. And jesus descends to hell, right? The harrowing of Hades.

JR: Mm-hmm.

David: He announces your plan just backfired because now I've conquered death, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: And Jesus very much talks about that had to remain hidden so that the fallen spirits of the world did not understand what God was up to.

JR: Yeah. That's [00:36:00] crazy. That's like a crazy thought.

David: I think there's something to that though.

JR: No, I think you might be right. Well, it's just a crazy thought in general to think that there, I mean. Listen, Paul lays it out for us that our fight is not flesh and blood, but it's this spiritual battle going on, this invisible war happening not in the physical world, but the spiritual world and so yeah, I think you're right. I mean, listen, go back to our mythology. The ground represents that was, which is from beneath. And so if the treasure is found beneath, then what you're saying is that there's a treasure. There's a treasure that's there. You gotta find it. But yeah, you have to access it the proper way.

You can't just dig it up and run off with it, you know, like you wanted to do the antiquities in Dion. I had to stop you, right? Yeah, no, yeah. You can't just get up and run off with it. You have to acquire it the proper way. And so yeah, it is definitely, at the very [00:37:00] least, it's pointing to the idea that this hidden knowledge has to be properly acquired.

You know, it's, not just something, well, we just said it, it's not something you stumble on. It's not something walking down the road. Dude, I was in the parking lot of Lowe's the other day and I found a $20 bill. How cool is that?

David: Oh yeah.

JR: Yeah, a dollar. Okay, that's cool. But a 20 floating around and you know, just to be fair, I did look around. There was nobody around. I'm like, you know, okay,

David: this

JR: so, but,

David: Okay. It's mine now. Yeah.

JR: Right. Yeah, exactly. But my point is, is that there are things that we stumble on like that $20 bill, but he's saying it's not gonna be like that. It's something you're gonna have to, you know, search out and dig for like a treasure map. And then once it's dug out, it's something, I think you're right.

I think it's, you have to acquire it the proper way and yeah, I never thought about it in the context of the spiritual battles and like you said, not letting, the spiritual forces know what you're up to or what God is up to, or what Jesus is up to.[00:38:00]

David: I mean, look, that's why Jesus doesn't go around from the beginning going, Hey everyone, I'm the Messiah, right? And here's what I'm gonna do. And, and there are New Testament writers who say, there's a reason why Jesus didn't do that, right? It's because God was trying to keep hidden from the spiritual forces of the world what he was actually doing until the big unveiling, which is kind of tied up in that harrowing Hades, like I said, where the spirits now realize they have been defeated. Oh crap, we blew it. Right? We are done. 

JR: Yeah.

David: Right?

JR: Yeah, yeah. The touchdown was called back. Yeah.

David: Yeah. So I think that's tied up in this, and that's where I say, okay, when you start to put all these images together, the symbolism, right. When you start to understand that a field is not just a field, a field is the fallen world, and what's the opposite of the fallen world, it's the ideal, which is the Garden of Eden, right? That Jesus [00:39:00] sowing seeds in a field is not just a farmer sowing seeds in a field. 

JR: Yeah.

David: it's the beginnings of the kingdom. It's hidden. Some of 'em, it's gonna, you know, fall away, but there's all the potential in the world to what? To get back to that state of Eden. I mean, I

JR: Okay. Yeah. Well, which is the definition of the kingdom of heaven.

David: Which is, yeah, exactly, the kingdom of Heaven is a return to Eden.

JR: Yeah. Okay. Well, and we've talked in other episodes where we think of the kingdom of Heaven as just heaven, right? After Jesus comes back, we all go up to heaven in the streets of gold and the mansions, and however you picture that, right?

But we've pointed out in other episodes the kingdom of Heaven is actually here on earth. It's available here and now in the physical world. And so that actually helps me understand the idea of pulling the treasure from the earth, pulling the treasure out, because

David: yeah,

JR: we have access to the kingdom of heaven right here and now in this fallen world outside the walled garden, and that's where the [00:40:00] treasure is. We just have to, yeah, we have to search for it, actively acquire it properly.

David: Well, there's also an element of, and once you acquire it properly, maybe discreet is the wrong word, but you need to be discreet and discerning about how you go about protecting it and sharing it.

JR: Right. Yeah.

David: Right?

JR: That it's something to be protected once it's discovered.

David: Right. And it's funny 'cause I said we can move on to the second part about pearls, but what does Jesus say? Don't throw pearls before swine, right?

JR: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

David: It's like once you acquire this thing, like be careful about what you do with it. And I don't know, I just think that's a different idea than maybe in some of the traditions that we were raised where it's like, man, once you're saved, tell everyone about the good news, right? Go knocking on doors, on street corners. And look, I'm not dogging on that totally. But there is something about , man, have a little bit of discernment about how you are stewarding this precious [00:41:00] thing that you now have in your possession, right?

JR: Yeah, you're right. Well, the casting pearls before swine, that's always been an interesting line because exactly what you're saying. It's like, why wouldn't you just tell everybody? Well, that's not really what Jesus did, you know? I, I always wondered about the rich young ruler that came to Jesus and said, what must I do to be saved?

Jesus has this weird, cryptic answer, you know, sell everything. And, I look back at that and think, why wouldn't he just tell him what to do to be saved? I mean, he asked a, just a simple direct question. If any pastor got that question, he'd be thrilled. He'd say, man, lemme sit down with you and tell you.

But Jesus kind of pushes him away a little bit. And this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I know that it's been explained different ways that he saw in his heart, and he knew that he had great wealth that he wouldn't be willing to part with. But I do think it's a weird, it's not a story that, pastors of today would be proud to say.

You know what I mean? I told somebody to go sell everything that they had, you know, other pastors would be like, well, what did you do that for? You know, I mean, he was [00:42:00] asking a, sincere question, you know? But anyway. Just the idea that yes, we think of it as run around, tell everybody the good news, and that's not really the model of Jesus, interestingly enough.

David: No, it's not. And you could argue that maybe it's the model of the Apostle Paul. And maybe you're right. But then Paul also knew when to just pull up stakes and move to another town. We talked about how Paul talks to the I'm gonna forget the name. He goes to Athens, right? And he,

JR: Yeah,

David: talks at the Areopagus.

JR: Yeah.

David: And then he moves on.

JR: Failed on Athens.

David: And you never hear Paul mention Athens again. And in our minds we're thinking, man, Athens is where I would've set up shop, right?

JR: Right. It's the capital city. It's where all the philosophers gathered. I mean, Mars Hill, everything. Yeah, you're right. But yeah, he kind of knew when to dust his feet off and move on.

David: Yeah, yeah. Alright, so let's, take that framework then. And I found that in looking some of these, it helps me if I really pay attention to the details and ask what's [00:43:00] the scenario going on here? So let's do that again with the merchant looking for fine pearls, "When he found one of great value, he sold everything and he bought it." And now this is another one where it's like, okay, so Pearl Merchant is going around and looking for pearls. Where did he find it? And if he's buying it from someone else, it's like, how did they not recognize the value?

JR: Yeah.

David: These are the questions I started asking myself. But it's kind of the same thing, right? So first of all, where do you find pearls? Well, in the ocean? What does the ocean represent?

JR: Chaos.

David: Right?

JR: Yep.

David: So there again, you have something of great value found in a fallen state, right? In the world outside of Eden , in the chaos of the waters.

JR: Yeah.

David: Right? Now. I, don't know, I think that's really interesting. And this simple parable suddenly becomes a very complex idea.

JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's funny 'cause I mean, I read [00:44:00] these short ones and I'm like, okay. I kind of, got it in my head about what I think about this, you know? And some of the longer ones you can, you can get bogged down on. But yeah, these are like incredibly simple, but they're turning out to be incredibly complex, right?

David: Okay. So here's another thing too. How does a pearl form? And my understanding is that, you know, a little piece of grain gets in an oyster, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: And it, and, and to protect it, like it forms this pearl substance around it.

JR: Right.

David: And so there again it's like, okay, so that grain, that's the seed, right?

JR: That's the seed. Yep.

David: We're

JR: As soon as you said it, I thought. There you go. There's the seed again. Yeah. This organic thing that happens yeah, out of sight. Buried in the ground. Buried in the, oyster or in the, in the clam and, yeah, grows from there. Yeah. Okay. That's cool. I like that. I like that connection.

David: Yeah.

JR: It just points to this whole organic process as opposed to a clear cut, written [00:45:00] and chiseled in stone. It's more of an organic process, a more an organic understanding, I should say.

David: Yeah. And it's something you don't see, just like the seed stays in the ground a long time and then starts sprouting up. You know, that little grain gets in an oyster and, you know, a pearl is forming. No one knows it's there, but it's forming.

JR: Yeah. Well, it's still the image of transformation, no doubt.

David: Mm-hmm.

JR: Yeah. That's cool.

David: Yeah. So anything else about those two? Again, in both cases, like they find something of great value and you're right, they sell everything they have. So they realize this thing of great value is worth far more than whatever possessions that they currently have. Right?

JR: Right, it's worth rejecting everything else

David: Yeah.

JR: to acquire. Yeah. Okay.

David: Then they go acquire it.

JR: Okay. So this idea of the pearl in the sea of chaos, right? That sheds light on the very next parable that we're gonna talk about . Do you wanna read that one?

David: Yeah. Yeah. The parable of the net. So in Matthew chapter 13, again, it's the next verse, which again tells you [00:46:00] that these are all linked, right? At least

JR: Yeah. They're all connected.

David: Yeah. So verse 47 says, "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish."

Now, some of that imagery should start coming forward. "When it was full, this fisherman pulled it up on the shore, and then they sat down and collected the good fish in the baskets, and they threw the bad ones away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous. And throwing them into a blazing furnace where there will be weaping and gnashing of teeth." So a familiar image. So that image right off the bat, what is some of the things that you start to pick up on given how we're kind of building this framework out?

JR: Yeah, well, the first thing that I see the connection back to the weeds and the wheat or the wheat and the tares that it's all gonna grow together and then it's gonna be separated in the end. Right?

David: Yeah.

JR: And. So, I also like this image that it gives about casting the [00:47:00] net into the sea of chaos. You pointed that out at the last parable. That the sea represents chaos. And I like the idea of casting the net, this sea of chaos and pulling out both the good and the bad. Right?

David: Yes.

JR: I think this could pertain to also to ideas or information, right? I brought up to you that I wanna do an episode on this issue of the nonstop information in our modern culture, right? That the internet just gives us endless confirmation of any silly belief that we have or want to any rabbit trail we wanna run down, right? And it has that feel of pulling order out of chaos. You know what I mean? Why is it that some ideas grip us while we pass on other ideas? Right? And it's another way to kind of look at this idea of judgment a little bit, because you kind of read this and you're like, oh, this is about the final judgment, right?

I mean, we're gathering up all the fish and the bad fish are being tossed in the fire, and [00:48:00] the good fish are being saved. So it's easy to kind of read this on the surface and say, this is clearly about the end times. But I think it's also a layered, nuanced idea about how to receive information, how to receive ideas, how to be discerning between good ideas and bad ideas, and what we apply to our lives, right?

And how we move forward with that.

David: Yeah, so we're bombarded with all these. I like the image that the net. Okay, again, the net comes from above, right? And

JR: Okay. Yeah. There. Yeah. That's right.

David: And goes into the world below from the previous one, or into the chaotic waters below, right? And pulls up everything.

And so, to run with kind of what you're saying, is we need to have a mechanism where you were saying that, I was thinking, okay, we need to have a mechanism that can come from above to discern the good from the bad, right?

JR: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Spiritual discernment, something like that.

David: Yeah. Or some kind of filter to go, [00:49:00] you know, again, we've talked about this idea is, is this idea correspond with reality or does it not? Right. I need something higher to able to evaluate this idea.

JR: Right. Yeah. Then my own logic, my own ability to discern, yeah. I need something outside of the physical world, so to speak, to understand that.

Do you think there's anything to the, it says that men separate the fish, but then it turns around and said, I guess he's saying as a fisherman would separate the fish, good fish from bad fish. so the angels of heaven? Yeah. So the angels will separate. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I was trying, I was kind of trying to tie together what's men's responsibility and what's angel's responsibility type thing.

David: Well, okay, so at a very basic level then, what this is saying is the same, like you said, the wheat and the tares is in the world, and in this case in the sea, we are going to have to coexist with a lot of good ideas and a lot of bad ideas.

[00:50:00] So one of the things is that the fishermen pull 'em up on shore and then they sat down and they collected good fish in baskets and threw the bad ones away. When I read that, I think about that as, I don't know if their stories are true or not, but you know, they talked about how people used to throw lobsters away.

JR: Oh yeah. Yeah. We used to feed 'em to prisoners.

David: Yeah. Which kind of this idea, they didn't have a very discerning eye, right? Because they're taking these really good ideas and they're just tossing away, well this one doesn't correspond with my ideology to.

JR: Yeah. Nobody wants these giants, cockroaches, right? They must not have known how to cook 'em or they didn't have melted butter at the time or something. I don't know how they missed that one.

David: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's what comes to mind when I read that phrase about they sort the fish, in the baskets. So I actually think there's this idea of, this is our role in the world today, right? As followers of Christ, we have to figure out, we have to sort all these ideas.

We have to sort through everything coming at us. And then it says, "And this is how it'll also be at the end of the age. The [00:51:00] angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Now we can get to that in a moment, like the wheat and the tares, there is this aspect of the kingdom where until it is fully overcome, all the bad in the world and the world is restored to this edenic state, right? The new Jerusalem comes down, it's upon, I think it is saying, it's upon us to try to figure out the good from the bad.

JR: Right. Yeah. Discern bad ideas from good ideas and apply those properly. Yeah, I think you're right. There's also an aspect of it that says kind of wait until the end times. It's like, we're not gonna figure it out, we're not gonna be able to sort it out until the final judgment. So it is kind of a dual meaning, meaning that there are some things, maybe ideas, maybe information that we have to be discerning and figure out, while at the same time recognizing that the ultimate judgment is gonna have to wait.

Again, if we're trying to create our own utopia, if we're trying to what continue to pull in and create a city where we're [00:52:00] self-sufficient, that's a futile process. The utopian idea is futile in this world until the final judgment. Okay.

David: And actually one of the last episodes we'll do in this series gets to this idea of the final judgment, but we visited it last episode. Didn't talk about it much, but that's definitely in here, where at the end of the age there will be a reckoning, right? There will be a sorting out and we don't have to get into that right now 'cause we will cover it later. But yeah, there is an aspect of, I think you're right, if we try to say, well we can do all this right now, we can create Eden again right now. That's the utopian project that always falls apart.

JR: Right.

David: It ends badly, right? So there's an element I think of, we're almost a microcosm of what's going to happen because we're not in a place to judge the world, so to speak, but we can judge what we embrace and run with and apply.

And I like,

JR: Yeah.

David: Get on a soapbox here, but I'm telling you, especially in today's [00:53:00] society, I'm amazed at some of the really bad ideas that Christians run with and support because they think it's the, I would say they think it's the right thing they think it's the virtue signaling thing to do. That's not what they think, but that's what they're doing, right?

JR: Right.

David: They think, well, this vaguely sounds like something Jesus said, so I'm gonna change my Facebook wallpaper go all in. Right? And it's like, man, I don't know. Where's the discernment? Right? You're just consuming everything in the net.

JR: Yeah. My argument is that I think that's getting the cart before the horse. It's saying, here's my ideology and what can I find in the Bible that will back that up as opposed to, what you and I are doing is saying where are the patterns? If you understand all the parables, where are the repeating patterns that I can see?

And once you see that, well, then you really know you're onto the right thing because the pattern continues to repeat itself. And it's not just one verse in isolation that I'm gonna take out of context to push my [00:54:00] own agenda. You know, I, I think I heard somewhere saying that's what taking the Lord's name in vain is, is saying, I can take this one thing and push my own agenda, but elevate it as something heavenly, elevate it as as religion, you know?

David: Yeah. Okay, here's a image I just thought of. The kingdom of heaven is like a net. What's a net? A net is a web, right? So the web, the worldwide web right, is accumulating all of these ideas and there's a discernment level of sorting out the good from the bad.

JR: Yeah, well, I, I think you're kind of kidding around, but I really do think there's some, you're, you're, yeah. No, there's something very true about that. The internet is just this sea of information. I mean, that's what I thought of. When you cast the net into the sea and pull out all these different fish, it's like, yeah.

I mean, you can find whatever you want on there. And again, if you're looking for confirmation of whatever bias that you have, [00:55:00] well, it's out there and you're gonna find a community of people that agree with you and say, yeah, that's exactly right. And so, it turns into your own ideology is reinforced by the information that you have at hand in this sea of chaos.

And I think it ties well to your image of the Christian that says, here's my ideology and here's a couple verses that sound like it could support that ideology. You know, again, it's the cart before the horse. You're not looking for the pattern, you're not looking for the entire you know, you're not looking for the treasure.

You're actually looking to reinforce what you want to reinforce. And yeah, there's definitely something to that when it comes to the ocean and the internet. It ties together. I think you're right.

David: Yeah. Well, okay. Well, so at the very least we could say, look, this is a call to discernment about what you're taking in, right? Because that's what you're actually gonna do. You're going to eat the fish, so.[00:56:00]

JR: Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

David: About what you're consuming in a ocean of all kinds of good and bad, right? But ultimately, understanding that there will be a final iteration of this, where the angels will come and ultimately separate the wicked from the righteous. So I think we, I don't know, anything. I think that's a good way to kind of wrap that one up. Anything else you wanna say about that?

JR: Okay. No, let's, keep moving here.

David: All right. This one we're gonna end with this one, the 10 virgins, the parable of the 10 Virgins, which is Matthew 25. And it's kind of longer, so maybe we will have our AI friend read this as well.

JR: Okay.

Matthew 25:1-13

AI Winston: At that time, the Kingdom of Heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps, but did not take any oil with them. The wise ones, however, took oil [00:57:00] in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

At midnight, the cry rang out. Here's the bridegroom. Come out to meet him. Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, give us some of your oil. Our lamps are going out. No, they replied, there may not be enough for both us and you instead go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.

But while they were on their way to buy the oil. The bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet and the door was shut later. The others also came. Lord, Lord, they said, open the door for us. But he replied, truly, I tell you, I don't know you. [00:58:00]Therefore, keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour.

JR: Okay. There you go. This is a little bit of a strange one.

David: Mm-hmm.

JR: Partly because it's difficult for modern people to relate to what's happening or being described in the story. And then secondly, it doesn't describe people or the situation in some of the other parables where there's sort of a black and white good and bad terms, you know, the righteous and the wicked, right? So let's take the first part. First of all, what's happening in this story about the bride groom and waiting on the groom to show up? What's going on contextually here?

David: Well, you have to go back to ancient weddings where the bride and the groom may not have even known each other that well. But, you can paint the scenario. You can kind of give it a background story of the groom lives in another city and at the assigned wedding day, he's going to, or before the wedding day, he's going to travel from [00:59:00] his town to come celebrate the wedding and kind of claim his bride. That's kind of the background, right?

So when you understand that that's what's going on, you have to understand that they didn't have cell phones. Right? It could be a two-day journey from his town to hers.

So he may say, he may send servants ahead and say, I'm leaving on Tuesday, and my plans to get there Thursday, right? But Thursday could mean Friday as well.

JR: Right.

David: That's just the nature you don't like, you know? Now I can just ping your phone and go, okay, JR's in Dothan, Alabama or

JR: is pulled onto our street. Yeah, right. 

David: So everyone get ready, right?

Fill your lamps up with oil and trim your wicks, right?

But that's now what, that's not what's happening here. So there was this element of, first of all, it was undetermined when the groom would show up, but he was showing up sometime, and so you had to be prepared.

Now the other element of this is it talks about the 10 virgins, which, [01:00:00] a Virgin is another way of talking about a young woman, right? So a lot of times, at least that's one aspect of it, that a lot of times that we might say the bridesmaids right, would all be described as just young women, right?

Unmarried women, who are there to support the bride, right? So that's the other aspect of this that may sound weird to us, like why do you just go around saying the 10 virgins? But that's what it's talking about. You know? You wouldn't say that today for a lot of reasons. 

JR: Right. Yeah. Well, it's also strange, just the whole you would think that if the groom is arriving, that it's the bride that needs to be ready, but it's basically saying the bridesmaids, the 10 bridesmaids need to be what? Preparing the bride.

David: Yeah. So, the picture then is that he can't see the bride before the wedding. the bridesmaids have to go out and here again, you have to think they're traveling. They may be coming off the main road, and so they have to go out and kind of [01:01:00] greet him and usher him into where he's staying, right? Or something like that.

JR: Right, right.

David: Which is this idea of why they have to go out and greet him and then bring him in. That's part of their role.

JR: Okay.

David: Now, I don't know if that helps make sense of some of this, and Jesus, the other thing is to point out is Jesus kind of because this would be familiar to them in those days, Jesus doesn't explain all that. He just knows that they already know this.

JR: Yeah.

David: Right?

JR: They, yeah, they're certainly familiar with this situation and we're not, so that was the first step, is kind of decipher what's happening here.

David: So then the picture is that it's getting late at night. The groom has not showed up, but there's potential for him to come still. Right?

There's the potential for him to show up. So that's where you get this idea of the five foolish ones and the five wise ones. And it says, The wise ones, however, they took oil and jars along with their lamps, and they were expecting him to show up whether he was going [01:02:00] to show up or not, right? But they wanted to be prepared.

And the other five are like, it's getting late, he's not gonna show up. So they went out unprepared.

JR: Yeah.

David: And they ran out of oil, right?

JR: Okay.

David: Well then it says the bridegroom was a long time in coming and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. Talk about that in a little bit. So they all seemed to kind of go asleep, right?

JR: Yeah. Right. Yes.

David: Then at midnight, the cry rang out. Here comes the bridegroom, come out to meet him, and all the 10 virgins woke up. They trimmed their lamps, which is a way of saying they trimmed the wick. They refilled it with oil. So they had plenty of fuel. But the foolish ones said, give us some of your oil. Our lamps are going out. And they replied, no, there may not be enough. Instead go to those who sell oil, but it's midnight, right? And buy some for yourselves. Now, what do you think? There again, I think that seems like kind of a, we ought almost say like, well, that's kind of mean. Why didn't they share? That's not what we're taught as kids.

JR: Yeah, a little, bit [01:03:00] harsh, right? Yeah, well, yeah, this is a really strange one the more I'm thinking about this. Because well, because I really don't know what it's saying. I'm really trying. I mean, I understand that, I understand the layer of we need to be prepared, we need to live life as if we need to have the character and live our lives as if the return, the second coming is tomorrow, right?

David: Yeah.

JR: I'm trying to kind of parse out the details of this to try to figure out if there's another layer to it or if there's another meaning to it. And I guess, I don't know. I'm having trouble with this one.

David: Okay. So go back to what we had said earlier about, well, the types of soil, right? The rocky ground. Actually go back to what Jesus said, what we initially started out with, which those who have been given some will be given more, and those whatever they have will be taken away.

JR: Okay. Yeah.

David: So I think in light of that, this starts to make sense then of, well, why didn't the one who were prepared and had oil, why didn't they share? [01:04:00] Well, it goes back to this idea that I don't think we even like to hear that much, but it's repeated throughout the New Testament of the teaching of Jesus is if you are not open and prepared, whatever you have will be taken from you. Which another way to say this, I think it's saying the same thing in this case.

It's like, look, if you're not prepared, I'm not gonna give you anything.

JR: Yeah, yeah. And again, it plays against our of sense of fairness or justice. But these parables are saying that this is the way reality is. This is the way it plays itself out. You know what I mean? Like it or not, we've said this before, you know, life is unfair.

It doesn't matter what you want. The reality is, is life is unfair. So it's not saying that this is the way you should be, that you shouldn't share you know, you shouldn't share your wisdom with others. That's not what it's saying. It's saying that this is the reality of the way things are.

That once you have the type of soil that prepares for the coming, well, lemme say it this way. If you don't [01:05:00] have the type of soil, if your heart is not the type of soil that is open to new ideas, open to this transformative type of thinking, then nobody else can give it to you.

Nobody else can say, Hey, well, you know, here's my transformative thinking. You know how about I share some with you. That's just not the way reality works. And so, again, we look at the oil and it's like, man, they could have shared, but that's not the point of it. That's not what this parable's trying to say.

It's saying that you're either prepared and therefore you're going to be taken into the chamber or you're not prepared, and there's no, there is no shortcut. There is no turning to the next person and saying, Hey, can I borrow oil? That's just the reality of it.

David: Yeah, yeah. so I think in light of everything we've said, there's a couple things you could say about this. So first it is a picture again, of that final judgment, right? Because it says they were locked out and they said, open the door for us. But he says, "I truly tell you, I don't know you. Therefore keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour." So there is this kind of defining [01:06:00] event where it's like, like you said, like you can't share your salvation, for lack of a word, with someone who's rejected God their whole life. And then at the end, it's like, Hey man, give me some of what you had.

And it's like, dude, I shared with you the whole time we were around, right? And you didn't want anything to do with it.

So there is that aspect of it. But I think there's kind of this, you know, again, there's this seed that is like, okay, we apply some of this now, some of this later, but it's pointing ultimately to this final judgment. But I think there is a layer that says, go back to the pearls before swines, right? Go back to the seed. It's like, understand what you're doing with this gift that you have, and we are called, so let's not miss this. We are called to share with the poor, right? To help those in need. But there's also a call to discernment in all of these things here that we've talked about, where if it's being wasted and squandered, to be blunt, stop sharing, right?

JR: Yeah, [01:07:00] there's just also an aspect of it that you can't share character. You know, I can share knowledge, I can say, here's what I learned, but I can't make you a better person and you can't make me a better person by sharing your character. Something like that. Which kind of answers the second part of my question.

Why is the language so harsh to the bridesmaids who were waiting, but who were just unprepared? That seems like, you know, because it says, they were cast out and they were locked out. And you're like, gosh, I mean, come on man. It was late at night. They, so what they didn't have enough oil, but it had been several days.

They didn't know when it was gonna happen, right? So there's a harsh language to it that doesn't feel, again, our sense of fairness, that's kind of kicks in. But if you look at the previous parable in Matthew, it was about that servant whose master was away for a long time, right, and the servant started hanging out with the drunkards and beating up his fellow servants. Right? And so it's clearly a cautionary tale saying [01:08:00] that just because there doesn't seem to be justice in this life, just because the master's away so to speak, it doesn't give you the right to cast in your lot with the unjust. And so

David: Yeah, yeah.

JR: It's a way of exposing your true character, right?

What is it what you do when no one's looking as opposed to looking good, only because the master's watching, right? you know, it's pointing to character. And character can't be shared. I can't give somebody else character. They either have it or they don't. And so I think it, kind of ties into that idea a little bit.

David: Okay. So , this just occurred to me, there's another image going on here that might help explain this as well. This isn't saying as you run across needy people, don't help them. That's not what it's saying.

JR: Right, right.

David: It's saying

JR: Sure.

David: These are people who should have been prepared, right? So think about the bridegroom. Who's the bridegroom in scripture?

JR: The church, well, I'm sorry, the bridegroom is Jesus.

David: Right, so

JR: bride. The bride is the church.

David: Yeah, exactly. So this is Jesus again, I, [01:09:00] I see this every time now. Jesus is being self-referential here, right? Who's the bridegroom? Well, it's himself. Who's the bride? And you just said the church, right? So who would these bridesmaids be? They would be, we could say the religious leaders who are preparing the way for the church to fully embrace the Messiah, right?

JR: Yeah.

David: And so, this may be, I don't know, this may be a little bit of a dig at the religious leaders of the day.

JR: No, I think there's no doubt that's what it is. Yeah. When you frame it in that context, that's exactly what it was.

David: Yeah. So these aren't people who are just down on their luck. These are people who they should have known. They had all the knowledge, they had the information. They should have been preparing the way and they were negligent in it. Which is why, then it makes a little more sense why the ones who were prepared, you could say, you know, the disciples of Jesus.

And who was it? The two people Zachariah worshiping at the temple, who [01:10:00] recognized the Messiah, right?

Those are the ones who are prepared. And so when they suddenly recognize it, they're like, well, share it with us. And it's like, no, you had all the information in the world and it was your responsibility and it's not gonna be given to you, right? 

JR: Right. Yeah. And so, I mean, that's why there was such contention with the Pharisees. They had the opportunity, but they used every opportunity to reject and, you know, worried about the teachings of Jesus undermining the religious structure of the time. That was their main concern.

It wasn't about the treasure in the field, it was about protecting their institution that they had built. And so, yeah, that is a more helpful way to see it, because you're right, the bridegroom is Jesus. The bride is clearly the church. And so the bridesmaids would be the attendents of the church, right?

The official party that protected and nurtured the church. Yeah.

David: Yeah. The protector, [01:11:00] you

JR: So that is, that's helpful. Yeah.

David: They protected, they were the protectors of the law, right? That would pave the way for the Messiah. 

JR: Yeah. The Messiah showed up and they weren't prepared and were unable to usher in the Messiah to

David: Right, Yeah.

JR: the chambers, right?

David: Yeah. And so that goes back to that idea then of the field. We talked about this image of the field being cleared of rocks to make way for the fertile soil. It's one of the things, the Pharisees, it's like they made an idol of the law, right? They stacked the rocks up and said, well, here we go. And Jesus is like, no, that's not what your job was. So, yeah, okay. So I'm becoming convinced now this is what he's really addressing, right? He's

JR: yeah,

David: addressing the keepers of the field that were supposed to create the fertile soil. And they were unprepared when the Messiah actually showed up.

JR: Yeah. They made an idol out of the boundary, instead of just establishing the boundary.

David: Yeah.

JR: They created, that was the God, you know, [01:12:00] and by the time Jesus shows up, I like the idea. We didn't really talk about it, but being asleep they were asleep. They, they weren't paying attention.

They had fallen asleep. And when you fall asleep well, in this case, the priority was protecting the established religious institution of the day, as opposed to looking for the Messiah. They weren't even looking at it because they had built their own kingdom.

David: Yeah, no, there's definitely something there, then about them, everyone was asleep. So it's like if you go for the Old Testament, the prophets, and then there was a period, it's almost like where people are just going, I don't, is this ever gonna happen? So it's almost like everyone was lulled asleep and when Jesus shows and the kingdom starts to emerge, it's like people wake up and again, half of them got it and recognize it, and the other half were unprepared.

JR: Yeah. No, that's cool. That's actually helpful to think about it in those terms. I was kinda lost on this one. I mean, other than sort of, again, the surface stuff of be prepared for the second [01:13:00]coming, whatever the oil represented or whatever the, you know, meaning of meeting the bridegroom.

But I think this is real helpful to see it in terms of Jesus and the church and the protectors of the church and seeing it in that context because this all makes a little bit more sense.

David: Yeah, Okay. So anything else to add? I think we've unpacked this idea of the kingdom of heaven is something that was hidden, that is now being revealed. There are those who are prepared, there are those who aren't. There's this precious treasure that once you understand and get it, it's worth everything to you. But there's

JR: Yep. But we have to actively seek it out.

David: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

JR: Right. And then the final one was pay attention, you know. Pay attention to the culture, the signs that are all around you.

David: Yeah.

JR: Then you'll be prepared, right?

David: Yeah. Pay attention to what's going on around you. Which again is that call to discernment because what, we live in that ocean, right? We live in that, [01:14:00] we live in the world, the field where there's the good and the bad. And so there's all kinds of junk out there to distract you.

JR: Yeah. No, no doubt. Yeah. So be prepared and be on the lookout for it.

David: Okay. So one of the things that, this wraps up our second episode of the parables. One of the things I'm really becoming aware of and appreciating is that when Jesus paints these, even the simplest of images, a field is never just a field, right? 

A bridegroom is never just a bridegroom. A pearl never just a pearl. You know what I mean? Once you start to appreciate that, it's like you can read the simplest of these parables and go, oh wow. There's a lot here to unpack.

JR: Well, and it's just like the fairytales, it's an invitation to dig, it's an invitation to really think about what all the elements represent to paint a broader picture.

David: Yeah, and the same thing where they start to interpret each other. So if Jesus has talked about a field over here, then he mentions a field and it's like, okay, pay attention. Right? What was that referring [01:15:00] to there?

JR: Right.

David: Yeah, it's kind of neat.

JR: Don't you remember the other parable I told?

David: Yeah,

JR: No, that was in another town. I didn't, this is the first time I've heard you, man. Come on. Help me out. Help interpret this a little bit. But there is, yeah, they kind of interpret each other.

David: Yeah. And a little bit of understanding starts to unpack, it's kind of what Jesus has been saying throughout, is a little bit of understanding starts to unpack a lot of meaning. And maybe that's the whole idea of, you know, those who have a little are gonna be given more. But again, if you're just like, oh, this is nonsense, or you're reading too much into this, it's like, well, then the parables aren't gonna mean anything to you.

JR: Right. Yeah. You're gonna completely miss the boat and the meaning, and therefore you're not gonna pick up on the patterns, and therefore you're not gonna be able to use those patterns in other arenas of life.

David: Yeah.

JR: And that's why it builds on each other. Yeah. No, this is really good.

I mean, it, it was tough. It was tough. Parts of it were difficult, but I think, you laid out a pretty good framework for a) how to interpret the [01:16:00] details of some of the parables, but also the broader idea of what the parables in general are trying to accomplish. And they're trying to reveal this hidden language in a way where Jesus wasn't directly saying, like you said earlier, I'm the Messiah. Hello. you know?

David: Yeah.

JR: And, he's trying to slowly uncover it for the discerning mind or the discerning heart that's willing to accept it.

David: Yeah. And for the one that's not, they're gonna think this is pointless, or it's just gonna confuse them.

JR: Right. It's just nonsense.

David: Yeah. Alright. And I don't know, so far, these have gone a direction that I wasn't thinking of when I was initially studying for and write some notes down, but I don't know. I think it's cool. It's gonna be this path of discovery for both of us as we go through it.

JR: Yeah. And, I've done this in some other episodes, but it's gonna be one of those things where I'm gonna think more after we stop recording, you know? And maybe we'll start off next week

David: Yeah. We

JR: with a few insights, but Yeah. 'cause uh, uh, it's one I'll [01:17:00] be thinking you gotta chew on it for a while.

Yeah, yeah. That's right, you know? Okay. Well, alright, so next week, where are we going?

David: So there's a bunch of parables around basically around virtuous living. So, you know, we tend to group these parables together and there may be saying, man, is that all these parables mean? Well, no, we're gonna get into a little different idea next week of how to live in this world. 

JR: Okay.

David: So basically virtuous living.

JR: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

JR: Okay. Alright. That sounds like a plan. Alright, that sounds good. Good.

David: All right. Well, so as always, Hey, I mentioned joining our Facebook group. I might throw that video up there, but yeah. You can join our Facebook group. You can subscribe to our newsletter, check the show links because there's links about how to contact us. I mentioned last time about texting us real quick, but if you want an answer from us or something a little in depth, you know, we have an email address too, and we would love to hear from you.

JR: Alright. There you go. That sounds good. We'll see you next time. [01:18:00]