Parables of Jesus: Threshold Moments

In this episode of the Navigating An Ancient Faith Podcast 🎙️, we wrap up our Parables of Jesus series by exploring the “threshold moments” where Jesus’ stories move toward judgment and accountability. 📖 We examine the Wise and Foolish Builders, the Parable of the Talents, the Great Banquet, and the Sheep and the Goats, uncovering themes of preparation, stewardship, invitation, and care for “the least.” 🐑 Along the way, we reflect on how these parables challenge complacency, expose fear-driven living, and call us to embody the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. ✨

-----------------------------

Visit our website: Navigating An Ancient Faith

Sign up for our Newsletter

Email us at info@navigatinganancientfaith.com

Visit our Fanlist page for questions, comments, or to support the show.

Discuss on our Facebook Group

Transcript

Parables of Jesus: Threshold Moments
 

David: [00:00:00] Maybe the pig is obvious. Like the pig is obviously not getting into the kingdom of Heaven, right? 

Nothing against pigs. They're delicious. All right. We finally got around to recording this last one. It seems like it's been a while, so we'll see if we can remember everything. 

JR: Yeah, we had a lot of catching up to do, so we talked about Dodgers baseball and FSU football and, you know, we always send a meeting notice to each other. It's like, okay, I can record in 30. It's like, all right. And then like an hour and a half later we'll actually start the episode because we were talking about other stuff. 

David: And we always say we should save all the chitchat for afterwards, but works out that way. We always just catch up for a while. 

JR: We got ground to cover, man. 

David: The important stuff. We'll start a sports commentary channel sometime soon or something like that, but  

JR: yeah, well we can, we can jump back into the NIL conversation that we just had. I don't know if the bible listeners would be interested, but, you know, we can, we can tie it together somehow with mythology or something. 

David: yeah, you could definitely do a [00:01:00] tie in about how NIL is causing you know, the defining moment threshold. make a link to the day, right? Of college football. The day of judgement, right?  

JR: Oh, yeah. No, it's a, it's a paradigm shift, no doubt. 

David: Definitely a shift. well, I don't know. I've enjoyed this series. I really have. 

JR: Oh yeah. 

David: it's one of those that when I go back and listen to it, there seems to be more there than I remember us talking about.  

JR: Oh yeah. Well, every once in a while I'll listen to it and I'll tell my wife or my daughter or somebody, I'll say, man, we had a really good episode. Which is a strange thing to say 'cause it feels like a flex, but what I'm doing is, it's been whatever, a few weeks sometimes, and you edit it and, and then I hear it and I'm like, man, that was fun. 

I, I really enjoyed that and I forgot what I said. So, uh, yeah, it, it's brought up all kinds of interesting conversations because I think when we take the parables, I think there's a tendency to sort of do well, like we've talked about, do the sermon notes thing and say, well, what does this mean? 

And how does that apply to our lives? But [00:02:00] there's something about what we're doing about kind of looking at it through a little bit different lens, and we're really trying to dig out the deeper patterns. And I think, the more I listen to it, and the more I study the parables that we're talking about today, the more I'm learning how to pull these patterns out and to get past the surface stuff. 

And hopefully we'll grab some of that today  

David: Yeah. And the surface stuff is important. We're not saying it's not unimportant, but our focus is really trying to understand some of the deeper patterns and the symbolism to just understand, I don't know how it connects better to life, how it connects to truth, The pattern of the reality. 

We always come back to that idea of the pattern of reality. I don't know, the more I'm doing that, the more I am appreciating just how I think profound these parables are. Right. I love the allusion to the field that's been cleared, you know, and the rocks in the field have been used to construct the wall, And it's such a powerful image, I think, that I can't [00:03:00] unsee anymore. Anytime there is a parable about a field.  

JR: Yeah. I'll automatically go to it. And the other thing that's kind of hit me over these last several episodes is, I don't know why it's never hit me, but the clear indication that the Christian walk is an organic, experience, as opposed to, we said it before about the facts chiseled in stone. 

And it's just so clear that, Jesus uses the seed references intentionally because it's not gonna be something that you can easily write down and pass along from person to person. That way it's an organic, it's an internal, it's a transformative experience. And when you start seeing the parables that way that Jesus is less interested in our behavior as he is our transformation. 

And when you catch that man, you see parable after parable is about transformation. And when you grab that, then, then you can kind of get away from maybe this legalistic here. Don't do this, [00:04:00] don't do that. Here's what we're supposed to do. And you can see Jesus trying to not only transform the individual, but transform the religious culture of his day the same way. 

David: Yeah. And the other thing that I've always heard is, you know, well Jesus is using these metaphors of planting in the field and sowing seed because that's what the people did. It was an agrarian society. And while that's true, I've also developed kind of a bigger appreciation that man, that idea of seed that produces fruit, again, I go back to that's the pattern of reality, And it, 

JR: Yeah. 

David: So it's like, if Jesus can connect that to something higher, right? Something to their spiritual life, here's how the kingdom of heaven grows, right? Here's how you grow, here's how you transform, then yes, it is what they did all the time. Mundane task. But then this mundane task actually represents, to use the analogy, it holds a seed of something much [00:05:00] greater. 

And if he could get people to understand that, then it is a transformative thing. 

JR: Yeah, because it's, it's something more than just going to the tabernacle on Sundays or whatever. It's, it's something that you do out in the field. It's something that you do in your everyday life and conversation the way you live. 

David: Yeah. That's right. All right. So today we've titled this The Threshold Moment, and there's been several parables we've covered already that escalate very quickly to where it's like you know, these people didn't have their wicks trimmed, and so they were late for the wedding. And then all of a sudden he makes these statements like, so they will be cast out into utter darkness, right? where there will be weeping and gnashing your teeth and you're like, whoa, what just happened here? 

JR: Yeah. That's, that's a little bit extreme there, man. 

David: Yeah. And so we've said that we're coming to this, this is how we're gonna end it, because we're gonna talk about that idea of judgment, that threshold moment that a lot of these parables that Jesus teach, culminate in this idea of the righteous will be over here and [00:06:00] the what the unrighteous will be cast into outer darkness, And so in a lot of these parables, he actually builds in this shock factor that you go, whoa, what just happened? Right? This servant who didn't invest his money, but who just hid it, all of a sudden like he's being cast into the fires of hell. 

JR: Right. 

David: And you go, man, that seems really like an overreaction. But Jesus is doing this for a, a purpose, right? 

JR: Well, it's just the, the foundation of symbolic thinking. And so obviously people know that, that it means more than just a servant who buried his talent. Right. it's this idea of symbolic thinking and when you have the symbolic thinking, a fractal pattern. It can start out small and then that pattern escalates up. There are good ideas, you know, like, this is the way I'm gonna run my family, or this is the way I'm gonna handle my finances. And these, and these are all perfectly good ideas, but how you know that you have a great idea is if [00:07:00] it scales up infinitely. And so the way you run your Fi, family finances may not be a good way to run a country's economic policy, right? 

Or, or foreign policy or geopolitics, right? And so when you have a really transformative idea, it scales up in the cases of the parables, it scales up infinitely. And so that's why you had this strange thing about, man, I thought we were talking about just a single servant, that that buried his talent. 

Now he's getting cast into the fires of hell is like, what happened? Well, what that is, is an example of an idea that can scale up infinitely. And so Jesus rightfully scales it up pretty, pretty infinitely, pretty quick, right? And, and to us it's shocking. But that's what's going on with that. It's, it's, it's scalable ideas. 

David: Yeah, that's a good point. And if you think about it, the fairytales do the same thing. It's the same reason, Why the wicked stepmother can't just be cast out of the castle and banished from the kingdom. She's gotta be [00:08:00] thrown into a barrel with snakes and burned,  

JR: right. Yeah. Or or you don't have a, it's not an abusive step-mother, it's a stepmother that wants to eat the children and you're like, holy cow, what, 

David: Yeah. 

JR: kind of freak culture is this? Right? 

David: Yeah, I'm supposed to read this to my kid. Yeah. So it's the same way, like the, the ending is intentionally shocking, right? 

Because, it's talking about more than just a stepmother who wasn't the best mother or it, it's talking more about, you know, the pattern of the kingdom, right? The king and the queen, and the pattern of society. 

And that's why things escalate so quickly. So it's interesting 'cause I do think you see that same pattern in parables. It's why a lot of stories that Jesus tells end this very escalating language of the final judgment. 

JR: Well, and again, it just starts with that idea of symbolism. And I think we're getting back to that too. You and I have talked about this, that I think we're kind of getting back to the, the symbolic way of thinking. I [00:09:00] recently heard a conversation I can't give it credit 'cause I have no idea where I heard this. 

It was on a podcast or something, but it was talking about how we communicated information to, originally the ancients communicated information to an illiterate society. Right? And so they use symbolism. We've talked about this before. Oral stories had to carry meaning about the world. And for stories to transfer, they had to be told in a memorable way, right? And then the printing press comes along, and changes the way we communicate, right? And over time, we shifted from an oral culture to a written culture. And that's when we became so literal, and that's when we became so fact-based. 

But the cool thing that they were talking about is that they argued that we're in a new paradigm of illiteracy, which is a cool way to think about it. 'cause not that we don't know how to read, But that's no longer the way we digest information, right? We've returned to this oral tradition through podcasts, through TV shows, and even like social [00:10:00] media clips to consume news, right? 

And so, maybe it should be no surprise that there's this resurgence of mythic storytelling that we're seeing in our culture, because we're actually going back to the paradigm of illiteracy, which is a cool way to think about it, 

David: Yeah, that is actually probably fewer and fewer people are actually sitting down and reading books. 

We communicate through images, through sound bites. yeah. And even when we are consuming, like long form a podcast, it's still listening. It's not this active kind of, there's something about reading a book, right? 

You, you're actively engaging in it. You can make notes on the side. Usually when you're listening to a podcast, you're doing something else, you know? 

And it always annoys me when I'm listening to a good podcast, but I have work to do. And then it occurs to me like, I really haven't listened to the last 10 minutes, but 

JR: Oh, yeah. 

David: Where just picked up, it sounded really interesting, right? 

JR: I can't do audio books for that reason. I could do a fiction book. I could, I can follow along with a story, you know, fiction. But yeah, anything nonfiction, yeah. [00:11:00] Apologies to the people who listen to audio books but I can't do it. I can't do it on, on nonfiction stuff because my mind wanders and it can wander into a story, a fictional story, but you can't consume information that way. 

It's, it's just a difficult way to do it. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. All right, so let's jump into the first one. Now, this isn't gonna be apparent that this one is about judgment, but it is about, the way I put it, I guess is neutrality is not an option, right? You have to kind of start to take your stand in one way or the other. 

But this is the wise in the foolish builder in Matthew chapter seven. I don't know, probably the best way to do this is just let the people listen to it, It's a shorter one, but we'll let people listen to it and then we can come back and talk about it. Matthew chapter seven, the Wise and Foolish Builder. 

Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that [00:12:00] house. Yet it did not fall because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash. 

David: Alright, so there you have the wise and foolish builder. Now it's important we've been doing this to set the scene of the context, what Jesus is talking about. In this one, you have to go back to Matthew chapter five. It's part of the Sermon on the Mount, right? So you have to go back to Matthew chapter five. And it said, "When Jesus saw the crowds, he went on a mountainside and he sat down and his disciples came to him and he began to teach them." So this is directed toward the disciples, but it's also directed to the large crowd that's gathering, and it's this big, long sermon. And this is one of the parables that Jesus tells I don't know what jumps out at you at this one. What do you think's going on here? 

JR: Well, [00:13:00] again, this is one of those that on the surface it's pretty obvious that, a wise person plans a little bit better. And to the listeners of the time, and even today, nobody, you know, a fifth grader would tell you it's probably not smart to build on the sand. unless you're building a sand castle, which we, when we came down and visited, we went to the beach and there was this really cool sand. 

Yeah. The, the professional sand Castle e exhibit, right? 

David: Yeah, 

JR: But, so symbolically, yeah, thinking about the difference between the image of the rock and the sand, obviously you don't need to tell anyone not to build a structure on the sand except for sandcastles. Right. But the kind of cool thing about that sandcastle exhibit the neat thing about that kind of art is that it's temporary. 

You know, it only sticks around for a little while and then the waves and the wind just sweep it away. Like it was never there. So it was kind of neat to see. And I mean, it was, maybe we'll throw up a picture if you're on the video feed.  

David: Yeah, we can throw a picture up. 

JR: Yeah. But there were these dramatic, intricate, all these [00:14:00] details. Very, very cool. But one of the things that makes it really interesting as opposed to if we had gone to see, let's just say statues that were chiseled, that would be cool too. But there's something interesting artistically about you're building something that's gonna wash away. 

David: Yeah, 

JR: You know what I mean? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: Kind of a cool way to look at it. But yeah. What is, what does building your life on sand look like? Practically? We got the image that's pretty straightforward, but what do you think that looks like kind of practically? 

David: Well, he even says, " Therefore, anyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who builds his house on the rock." So I think what Jesus is saying here is, he's just did this long sermon, and he's saying you can't just listen to what I'm saying and go, wow, that's really cool and profound. Even you can't even go around saying, yeah, there's a lot of symbolism there. I think that's what this means. You actually have to put this to practice for it to be of any use to you, right? 

And again, we can go back to that idea of the [00:15:00] seed. I was just thinking of this, you can't just look at a seed and go, man, that's really cool. 

I bet this is gonna be a tomato plant or an apple tree, or you know, whatever. He's like, you've actually gotta nurture that, right? And it has to be in the right soil. And so that's what I, I think he's doing, is he's really setting the stage to say to the people like, look, you can't just have your ears tickled and go, that was a great podcast. Good episode, Jesus. 

JR: Yeah, yeah. 

David: You've gotta go home and put this into practice, or it doesn't do anything for you. 

JR: Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that because when you were talking about the soil, you know, there's all these parables that talk about soil. Sand is, is also sort of like soil, but it, there's no nutrients. It's kind of worthless as a soil medium, right? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: And so I was trying to think of the, what, what is symbolically trying, trying to grab the difference between the, the sand and the rock? 

And I thought to myself, I thought sand is really nothing more than rock [00:16:00] fractured into a billion pieces. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: Right. There's, there's no unity or there's no cohesiveness to it, right? And so to go back to what you said about, to be the person who hears it and then does it, it reminds me of, of what we've said about Paul in Athens that he went and he preached in Athens and they seemed to be receptive to his message, right. 

But they weren't willing to do anything more than to add it to all their other wisdom that they'd collected. And so Paul said, well, you can be receptive to this, but if you're not gonna do it, I'm wasting my time here. And he clearly moved on. And so building your house on the sand, is it, it is. 

It's kind of it. Now I have this image of these fractured rocks into a billion pieces and, and 5 billion good ideas and saying, yeah, man, I've got all this awesome information. I've got all this awesome wisdom, but you don't have anything to make it cohesive and so you can't build on it. 

David: no, I like that image. As soon as you said that, I said, yeah, it, like it's the fragmentation of [00:17:00] something valuable or useful, So, when you and I, you see this more in Israel or Egypt, than you do in Greece, but I, I don't know if you remember this, but you know, in Israel, especially in the Sinai Peninsula, they have these, they call 'em wadis. We don't call 'em wadis over here. But, know, and so when I, when I think of this parable, I think of that idea of a wadi, which a wadi is just a wide open area, and it's sandy and it looks like a good place maybe to build something, right? Because it's clear. The thing you, thing you see about a wadi though is, it could be dry most of the year. 

And it could be a great air, great plane to build on. But once a rainstorm happens and it could rain miles away, all of a sudden this wadi floods. 

JR: Right. 

David: And so that's where you get this picture where it says, the rains came down, the streams rose, the winds blew and beat against the house, and it fell with a great crash. And I don't know, I think Jesus might be referencing this, this [00:18:00] wadi, If you're dumb enough to build in a wadi, Good luck with that, you know, because the first rainstorms could just gonna wash everything away. And the rocks actually seem more inconvenient to build on, but it's out of the way of the storm, and there's a solid foundation there. So I like that image too. But yeah, I, I do think the sand is the, you know, it's the fragmentation of something valuable and solid. So if that's where you're gonna plant yourself or build yourself off of, there's nothing there really. 

It's kind of easy at it will never stand. 

JR: No, that's a cool image because I think you're right. The waddy is just a washout, and over there, if, if you grew up in the states, you know, you're thinking sand, so you're thinking beach or you're thinking desert, But over there it's very rocky. There's not much, and you think of as soil in the United States, farmland. 

If you live in the heartland or something, it's very rocky. And so you're exactly right, because the rock can't absorb the rain water, [00:19:00] it takes a, you know, a good rain. Everything funnels right down to the wadi, like you said. And then you're, you're in the washout, and you're right, it may be look like a pretty good foundation, not like the beach, but it, it would be functional to build something on. 

But you better know you're there because it's gonna rain, and now you're screwed, right? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: You're gone. Everything's gone. Right.  

David: Yeah, the other thing I thought about, and at Thanksgiving our families took our mother to the Keys, right?  

JR: Yeah. 

David: The other thing I thought about was when we were in Key West, we went to the Hemingway House, which is a really cool house. 

One of the things they tell you about the Hemingway house, it's, I don't know, it stood for, I'm gonna get this wrong, but maybe a hundred years, I don't know, something like 

JR: Oh yeah. Easy, right? 

David: Yeah. But they tell you how the house was constructed was drove beams something like 60 feet down into the bedrock, past all the sand,  

JR: Yeah, 

David: And so, it survived that long because of course you got hurricanes passing through the Keys all the time and the [00:20:00] Hemingway House is still standing. Well, it's because they drove the beams, the structure all the way down to something solid, it took them, 

JR: right. 

David: again, at that time, it was probably a pretty remarkable feat that they did. 

JR: Oh, yeah. Before heavy equipment. 

David: Yeah. So that's what stands out to me about like the Hemingway House. 

It's like, okay, that person got it right. They drilled down to the rock, the foundation, and so that's not just a house built on a little island and it's gonna wash away every hurricane. 

JR: No, that's cool. I've got a friend that lived in New York for decades. But anyway, one thing he was saying, I have no idea how we got here, but he was saying that you could tell that a skyscraper was being built before they even got one story tall. He said you could tell it because The higher a skyscraper went, the deeper they had to dig the foundation. And so as you're casually walking around New York, 'cause he lives there, he would look and his friends would say, oh wow, this is gonna be a [00:21:00] huge building. 'cause look how how deep they're digging. 

And I thought, well that's kind of a cool way to think about it too. You know, the higher the skyscraper, the deeper, you have to dig to your point about getting past the sand to something more solid.  

David: Yeah, yeah. That makes sense too. I don't know. The other imagery I think is built in here is this idea of, 'cause I even think he said when the storms come, which points to this idea a, again, the pattern of, look, it's not a matter of skating by in life. It's when the storms come, what's your foundation built off of? 

And Jesus is saying, if you take these teachings of mine again, when the storms come, you will weather it. And I think that speaks to the idea of, I don't know the inevitability of suffering in life and what are you gonna do? It's not a matter, matter of dodging suffering, right?  

JR: yeah, that's an important part of the story that both guys face the storm, right? And both guys looked, looked successful when the sun's out. But, and we've said this [00:22:00] before, you know the saying, prepare your child for the road, don't prepare the road for your child, right? You can't control the storms. 

You can only control how you prepare for them, And so you don't know what you're built on until something shakes you or what is it?  

David: Yeah that's 

JR: uh, Tyson. Yeah. Mike Tyson. Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: And that's so true. You know, it's like you can look good, you can talk big, but when you get punched in the face, when life punches into your face, that's what you find out what you're made of. 

And until then, it's just talk. It's just a sunny day and your house is built on the sand. 

David: Yeah, that's right. The theologian Mike 

JR: the philosopher that's, yeah. The philosopher Mike Tyson. Yeah. But yeah, both of these guys' houses looked the same on a sunny day and the difference was revealed in the storm. And so. If you're listening to this podcast and your life is looking pretty good and the sun is shining, like now's the time to work on your foundation, because when the storms come, it's gonna be too late. 

Like, it's a terrible idea to patch a hole in your roof in [00:23:00] the middle of a thunderstorm, right? It's like that's not the time to fix things. And so now if, if the sun is shining in your life, now's the time to start working on it. 

David: That's right. And I also think it points I, I guess the idea of the storms of life. Then I think that starts to point to the idea too, of a final judgment, which we're gonna get to here in these next couple of parables. But again, it's this idea of, okay, you've heard all these teachings of mine now be braced for, what, that defining moment again, right? 

Because there will be a time where you're called to how you've lived your life. 'cause that's very much part of the Bible, right? 

JR: Right. And so, yeah, you're right. You gotta remember how this story starts, those who hear my words and do them. 

David: Yeah, 

JR: This isn't a story about ignorance, it's a story about embodiment, Transformation. It's the difference between information and integration, is hearing it versus actually integrating it in your life? 

David: Yeah. That's [00:24:00] right.  

JR: Yeah. Okay. So, an uncomfortable thought when I really think about this parable is that the foolish builder, he might've built faster. sand might be easier to work with. It certainly is when you're building a sandcastle, But I kind of pull outta this parable that obedience to Jesus is slow work, It's this interior renovation, it's cutting away our pride. It's, reordering our desires, right? And so sand construction might be quicker and it looks fine from the street, but it has, it has no weight bearing depth like we were talking about earlier. 

And so I think that's, I think that's the uncomfortable thought about this is if you're looking for the quick fix, well, Christianity might have some good advice, but best of luck. You know, it's, it's hard to integrate in your life on a daily basis overnight. It just doesn't happen that way. 

David: Yeah. There's a quote. I, I'm not Chesterton or CS Lewis. Chesterton probably, I think. But he said it's not that [00:25:00] Christianity has been, tried and found easy, it's that it's been tried and found hard, right? 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. It's something like, yeah, it's been tried and found wanting. In other words, you, you can't, it's not that you can poke a bunch of holes in it, it's just that it's difficult and so it's left untried. They walk away from it, right? 

David: Yeah, you're right. 

Alright, so let's move on to Matthew 25 and it's the Parable of the Talents. And again, people are probably familiar with this one. This is a longer one. Again, we'll let people listen to it. Then we'll come back and talk about it. But this is another one that, escalates quickly. Like the servant who, squandered the talent ends up being cast into outer darkness. And so we'll come back and talk about what that's really getting at. 

Again, it will be like a man going on a journey who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them to one, he gave five bags of gold to another two bags and to another one bag each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. [00:26:00] The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more so also the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 

The man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master's money. After a long time, the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five master. He said, you entrusted me with five bags of gold. 

See, I have gained five more. His master replied, well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's. Happiness. The man with two bags of gold also came master. He said, you entrusted me with two bags of gold. 

See, I have gained two more. His master replied. Well done. Good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share [00:27:00] your master's happiness. Then the man who had received one bag of gold came master. He said, I knew that you are a hard man harvesting where you have not sewn and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 

So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you. His master replied you wicked lazy servant. So you knew that I harvest where I have not sewn and gather where I have not scattered seed. Well then you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers so that when I returned I would've received it back with interest. 

So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has 10 bags for whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have even what they have will be taken from them and throw that worthless servant outside into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  

JR: Okay. Yeah, that's a fairly familiar parable. [00:28:00] Lots of people probably know that one. But yeah, to, to jump in to this, it's the idea of a talent, right? So a good place to start would be what is a talent? 

it's more than just a s today's wages, like the previous parable we talked about, how much is a talent, how much are we talking about? 

David: So, yeah, I looked this up. A talent is about 20 years of a day's labor wages. 

JR: Oh gosh, that's more than I thought. 20 years, 

David: You know, like, so 

JR: right? 

David: is a lot of money and so it, we've talked about in other episodes about kind of the story is intentionally absurd.  

JR: Yeah. 

David: one of the things you see, he leaves one servant with five and one with three and one with one. 

You got, so one of the things you see right away is even the talent, even one talent, didn't leave the guy 20 bucks, right?  

JR: Right. 

David: He left the servant an enormous amount of money. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: And so, just doing a quick calculation, like a day's, you know, maybe guy who makes 20 bucks an hour, right? A talent for 20 years, it would be [00:29:00] like $800,000. 

JR: Wow. But, okay, so this is good though because if somebody leaves you again, leaves you a thousand dollars, then well, maybe that's just to kind of run the household. Maybe that's to pay the light bill, right? While, while the master's away. 

David: Yeah, 

JR: $800,000 or a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars or something like that is very clearly the intention is to invest it. 

David: yeah, 

JR: mean, I, I, you and I've look at our 401 Ks and when the market goes up, it looks good, and when it goes down, it, it like leaves a pit in your stomach, right? So yeah, the point is not to just pay your bills with it. The point of it is investment. And so that's important to kind of understand on the front end. 

David: yeah. That really does set the stage. So the master goes away and he leaves these, I, I think it's five and three and two, is that right? 

JR: Five and two and one.  

David: Five and two and one. Okay. Yeah, 

JR: Yeah. 

David: that's right. and these are enormous amounts of money. So I, I think you're right. It's a good point [00:30:00] that this isn't just, Hey, here's a thousand dollars to pay the bills while I'm out of town for a couple weeks. 

This is, I'm gonna be gone a while. And, you know, again, back in those days, I, I'm not just gonna move my money to this investment or that. It's like I'm giving it to my servants. Here's an enormous amount of money and I want you to steward it while I'm gone, right? 

JR: And so what's lost in translation is the idea of a servant. It would be, it's much more like today's version of I'm giving it to an investor. I'm saying, look, I don't have time to keep an up with, keep an eye on this. I'm gonna put all of this into my Fidelity account and let my investor move it around as he sees necessary. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: And if you come back in five years and it's the same amount that you left yeah, it's time for a new investor. 

David: That's true. 

JR: Maybe there would be casting into the outer darkness and weeping of gnashing of teeth. I'd be ticked. 

David: Yeah, that's right. If your, if your investment advisor said you know, I, hey, I was afraid of you. We will get to that, 'cause that's a fascinating part, [00:31:00] you know, so I just put it in a, what's the account? I did this one time actually, like a treasury cash account and it earns like, you know, a couple of pennies every month, right? 

JR: Right, yeah. 

David: So it's like, man, I was afraid of you. I didn't wanna lose your money. So I invested it in, in a treasury cash account. 

Alright, so I moved a this is kind of funny because I rolled over another IRA, I think it was my wife's into a common investment account. And I didn't realize that, I never told it where to reinvest. And so a couple of months went by I looked, and was a significant amount of money that was just sitting in this treasury account. 

JR: How much? Tell us. 

David: it earned like, yeah, so, and it earned like over three months. It earned like $5 or something. And I was like, oh, you know what a knucklehead I am. 

JR: Yeah, you're just kicking yourself over it. 

David: Okay, so the funny part is then I actually looked at what the market had done and the market had lost money. So [00:32:00] then I'm like, 

JR: dodged a bullet. 

David: Okay, I dodged a bullet, you know, let's get this invested. But it's like all my other accounts, you know, it's like for the quarter you don't really worry about it. It's the up and down of the market, but it's like, yeah, I would've lost money on this, so I'll take my $5 treasury earning. But it's a bad investment strategy, right? 

JR: Right. Yeah. But I'm glad we're talking about it this way because, you know, most modern sermons sort of flatten this into, they take the word talent, literally, or at least it's a play on words in the English language. So they, they flatten it into use. Yeah, yeah. Use your gifts or something like that. 

And that's not wrong. It's just, it's just that it's thin, you know? And a talent is something that's entrusted that doesn't belong to you. A and so B, it represents, well, I'll throw it out to you. What do you think the talent represents? 

David: Well the, so the first thing is there is that interesting. Whether it's an English play on words or I, I don't [00:33:00] know, the etymology of where talent has translated to us to be some kind of ability, right?  

JR: Right. 

David: You know, you're really good at building tables or something like that. That would be a talent. and it's interesting, I'm looking at the NIV. The NIV doesn't have talent. It says bags of gold. Now that's something else we can relate to, because it's like, gold is worth, I don't know what gold is up to right now, but this isn't an investment podcast. So, but, you know, a bag of gold would be worth a lot of money. Like a, to use the same example, it's like if I'm gonna go away for a couple months and I'm gonna say, Hey, pay my bills, I'm not gonna give you like a box of gold bars, right? You'd be like, holy cow, I don't want to touch this thing. Right? 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. You're terrified. Sure. 

David: So, yeah. So there is that, so there is this idea of it works well in the English that a talent, you've been given a set of abilities and it does work, right? 

JR: Right, 

David: But one thing, when you realize these bags of [00:34:00] gold, you realize it's not just that I don't know. It's not just that I'm good at making free throws, or not that I'm, or I'm good at woodworking or, you know, whatever. It's that you've been given an enormous gift of your life and all that is encompassed in that, right? 

JR: Right. 

David: So in that way, I do think sometimes modern messages can make this about, well, you know, you have a couple of good gifts and use them to your ability. And I think it's bigger than that. I think it's 

JR: Oh yeah, yeah. 

David: It's, it's your entire life. you gonna throw it away or are you going to invest it the right way? 

Right? Because it's an enormous amount, It's an enormous gift you've been given. 

JR: Well, it's kind of cool because the idea on this podcast, our goal is what did the original listeners understand about these stories? I mean, that's a focal point of what we do. And obviously in the ancient Hebrew, a talent doesn't mean what it means in the [00:35:00] English today. 

So it's kind of cool. It's like a flip side of, of what we normally do. It's like, normally we say, well, what would the original readers of understand without at least me understanding ancient Hebrew. But this is the flip side. It's like, it's kind of interesting that this parable now takes on a new meaning in the English language and the English understanding. 

And it's almost, so, what's the word? It's almost so glaring, that it's easy to read the English version of this and say, oh yeah, that's what he's talking about. Of course, he's talking about talent, isn't it? Isn't it a coincidence that the word for all this gold actually is the same for the way we use our abilities and, and the gifts that we've been giving, you know, our talents, right? I just think that's kind of interesting that it's, it's backwards from what we normally do. 

David: Yeah, that's right. It does. It works backwards. it's also bears mentioning that the setting of this, I think was that Jesus' disciples ask him, let me get this right. Jesus' disciples ask him, they said, tell us when will this happen [00:36:00] and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Okay. 

So they specifically ask him about, Jesus, let us know how we're supposed to recognize when this big event is going to happen. Right? So that's the setting. 

So now that kind of puts this in another light too, because Jesus then tells him this story about a guy who leaves and he entrusts them with these enormous amounts of money. And then he's going to come back and he's going to say, alright, what did you do with it? Now clearly that's a picture of Christ Jesus understanding that he's going to go away, right. And then he's going to return. And what you're going to be called to account then is how you've, there's a famous saying about, you know, how, how are you gonna use this one? You know, beautiful, messy, crazy life that you've been given, right? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: So Jesus is like saying that same thing. 

JR: But it's also, I mean, if you're talking about how are we [00:37:00] gonna know the end, end of the, the age, us looking back 2000 years later, it makes me now think that this parable is more about our culture or something like that. It's something broader than the 80 or 90 years that I'm fortunate to live on this earth, right? So if we're talking about the end times, it makes me think, well, this is something a little bit more. And I think it's a fractal thing. It it, it can scale up and scale down. So,  

David: That's exactly what I was gonna say. It's that whole idea scaling up because it, it does start with the individual, right? But it's way more than just, you have a couple of talents you should use wisely. It's what are you gonna do with your life? But then it scales up to, you know, the family, your legacy, right? Ultimately the culture. it's like how is all this going to, be prepared for when Christ finally returns and God intervenes in the world and establishes his kingdom? Because that's what the disciples were asking. 

JR: Right. And so today, like I said, 2000 years later, it [00:38:00] obviously talents represents our opportunity, our responsibility, our capacity to some degree, right? We don't all have the same capacities our participation in the kingdom, but it also takes into account because of the scalability it takes into the account of the fact that we live in America, or at least a different, time and a different place than an agrarian culture. 

it's something like recognize where you're at in, in our time in history. It's, yeah. So, so I mean, again, it, it's, it's a lot bigger than just the idea of use your talents and if you happen to be good at whistling, use that for the Lord. You know, let's, let's, let's make this a lot broader than that, right? 

David: yeah. That's right. And you, I think this is where it helps to tie it together to other teachings of Jesus, where he's, you know, to to whom much is given much is gonna be required. And so this is not the first parable where he says basically, so here's another aspect of this. He says, one, I'm gonna give five bags, [00:39:00] one I'm two, and one is one. And you kind of alluded to this idea of, again, the kingdom or this life isn't fair, right? He doesn't say, I'm gonna give everyone three. 

JR: There's unequal starting points. Yes. 

David: Yeah, exactly. But then there's this idea too of like, if you've been given more, God expects more of you. So I think to tie it back to that point, that you do have to recognize the point in history that you're at, right? 

Like you could say, we live in a free society, a very wealthy society. Well, that puts more on us, right? It's not just good for me. you know, I'm gonna be a good whistler. It's like, man, no. What are you gonna do with all this? 

JR: No, I, I, and something about the way we can communicate, I mean, just this podcast, it can obviously go out to, this is not our numbers, by the way, but it can go out to billions of people. And it can, so just the ability just to touch. But yeah, just the ability. And it's funny because, you know, you hear, you hear cultural conversations [00:40:00] about, well, you shouldn't platform this person. You shouldn't, you know, use your, how are you using your platform? Well, that's kind of a recognition of this new idea that we can push this out to all kind the whole world to some degree. And so, yeah, you take that into account and to your point of it's more than what you're doing with your talents. 

This is a lot bigger than we understand. You're right. I think we shrink this down way too small in the typical sermons that cover this. 

David: yeah. Once you see the whole structure, it's going on here.  

All right, let's go to the end of this, because this is really, there's some fascinating stuff going on here. So the man who received five, he multiplied it, he doubled it, I think, right? And so Jesus used this phrase, he says, well done thou good and faithful servant. Same thing with the man who did two, which is interesting because it's like to the one he gave two, right? He doesn't say, well, you should have gotten five, too. 

JR: Right, right. 

David: Too - t-o- o, right? He says, You did a great job with [00:41:00] what you were given, 

JR: Yes. 

David: right? 

JR: And so to go back to that unequal starting points, it's kind of cool now that I'm thinking about this. There were unequal starting points, but there were equal expectations of how they use that equal expectations of faithfulness. 

So that's kind of cool, you know? Yeah. That, that it's, he's intentionally making it unequal at the beginning. 

And so the listener would casually think, well, how did this, how come this guy got five? Or, how come this guy, that's not the point. It's the point that it's unequal, just like life. Life isn't fair. We don't all start off on the same footing, but equality comes in the expectation of what we do with it. If the guy who had five only got a return of two, thereby having seven, yeah. 

The master probably would've had some harsh words for him too. the equal expectation, I think is very apparent that both guys doubled. And then you come to the guy who had won, who he didn't have a lot to deal with, but he essentially lost the return on it all the way. 

David: Yeah, that's right. So [00:42:00] he goes to the guy who, who says one, I, I don't know, this is really interesting. The man who had received one bag of gold came, he said, master, I knew that you were a hard man. And then he even says, " harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed." 

So I was afraid and went and hid it in the ground. Now, we talked about this, I think last episode, where the master who leaves is clearly like a, God figure, right? Or Jesus being self-referential. So it, it's very telling that the one actually says, master, I knew you were a hard man. And then he even goes so far as to basically say, look, you know, I know you cheat. 

I know you cut corners. And it's like, where did that come from? 'cause there was no hint in this story that this is a dishonest person, right? In fact, this is the God figure,  

JR: yeah, 

David: it plays into this idea of, I think there's a lot of reading into the one, [00:43:00] his own view of God, right? And maybe, 

JR: yeah. 

David: so maybe it's this idea and then I'll get your thought. 

Maybe it's this idea that, well I was only given one God, so I already see that you're not fair.  

JR: Oh, no, that's a good, that's a good insight. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. So it's a very we, you can't, in the story, let's put it this way, you can't miss his response to basically say, master, I knew you were harsh and I even think you're not fair, and so I feared what you were gonna do. 

JR: Yeah. 

Which would mean that his failure isn't incompetence, it's distrust. He doesn't trust the master. the key, I just think it's key that he doesn't, he doesn't lose the money. He does. It's not like he had a vice and he was an alcoholic and he went and blew it all, right? 

He just simply buries it. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. He preserves it. and then when you say that about him, kind of distrusting the master or, or saying that I knew you to be a hard man. so he sees the master is he [00:44:00] sees the master as harsh, right? And so he withdraws. 

He buries, right. He, he minimizes his exposure, right? And so that's interesting. So you can take that and say something like, fear leads to stagnation if you're, and, and to go back to the God figure, if you have a view of God, like he's this judgmental a lightning bolt waiting for you to screw up so he can strike you dead type of God, then all you're gonna do is cower down in fear, and you're not going to, well, A, you're not gonna have the transformation that Jesus is trying to bring about. But B, to go back to the way the ancients viewed the gods. That's the way they viewed the gods. It's just like, stay out of their way. 

They're picky. 

David: Yeah, 

JR: best thing to do is avoid him. And, and Jesus is saying, yeah. And Jesus is saying, no, this is a, this is not that type of God. Like he's changing the way they view the gods, right? Or God. 

David: Right. No, that's so interesting because it really is telling cause I think this is, you know, look, probably this is a lot of ways [00:45:00] that people view God is like, man, God's judgmental. I better not screw up. Man, I'm just gonna try to obey the rules the best I can you know, hopefully make it into heaven, God willing, right? 

And Jesus is saying, that's not how I'm calling you to live your life. So the other thing in here, and this ties to what I'm saying, is there's an element of risk in each of these, right? So it it, so to take five and multiply it to get five more, to take two and double it Basic economics. You and I were raised in a household of an economist, right? 

JR: for sure. 

David: Right? To get those kind of returns involves risk. 

JR: Yeah. Higher risk, higher reward. 

David: Right. So there's an element of risk in here where Jesus is almost giving people permission, I think, to say, man, don't be afraid to risk. Don't have such a view of God that you're afraid to screw up, Or god's gonna slap your hand. 

JR: Yeah, 

David: In fact, that's the guy that basically [00:46:00] enrages the master when he comes back.  

JR: Well, you say that he gives us permission, but it's also unsettling. You know what I mean? That this, that again, he didn't lose his money because he screwed up. He just played it safe. And, and that's the guy that gets cast into outer darkness. The guy who just played it safe. 

David: Right. 

JR: And I mean, I remember reading this as a kid or mom reading, we had these cool little picture books and this was one of them that mom would read me. 

And I remember being a kid and just thinking, man, it was just kind of scared me to think that that the master was so mad at him. 'cause I think I was of the age, or at least mom explained it to me, you know, that this is kind of the way we relate to God and God being the master. So I recognized that. 

But yeah, I remember it kind of scared me thinking, man, he, he was just playing it safe. He, I mean, that seems like a safe move to bury it. Make sure it's safe. don't lose it.  

David: It really does reframe it to say, okay, I'm gonna live this life and I'm gonna try and be straight laced and play it safe [00:47:00] and just not screw up. 'cause I don't want God mad at me, right? And, and that's gonna be my path to heaven. Right? 

this turns that upside down. It's like Jesus is saying, man, that's not what I've called you to. Man, take a risk. 

Do something with your life. 

And again, we can fall into the trap of, I don't know, we can also fall into the trap of interpreting the five doubles it, and gets 10. And we can go, well that's success. I've gotta have some kind of success. But that's where you gotta, pull in Jesus' other teachings. 

'cause Jesus isn't saying you have to be successful. 

JR: Right, 

David: I don't think that's at all what he's saying, you know, but what, what is he saying? He's like, you've gotta be a good steward of what you've been given. You have to understand what you've been given. I don't want you to squander it, so take risks. And that doesn't always mean success. Maybe it just means you become a better person when, again, going back to the last one, when the storms come, the rain beats down and [00:48:00] you know, and you've weathered it. Right? 

Maybe that's the return.  

JR: Well, I just, I think it's interesting that it started out with this in unequal, this inequality. And so we're in a society that is all about equality, right? And so this story just starts out with this inequality. And so if you kind of look at this, I don't know, psychologically you, you realize that every human, we all have, we all have time, we have a certain amount of energy and relational influence and intelligence and opportunity and even suffering, right? 

But the question isn't, did you have as much as someone else, right? That's what we wanna do. That's what equality says. Well, this person doesn't have as much as it, the question is what did you do with what was entrusted to you? And so again, that kind of reframes this idea that we get hung up on. 

And I'm sure that the ancients probably got hung up on it too. This idea of equality and privilege and you're here and this other person's there, and it's like Jesus reframes that and says, look, the [00:49:00] reality is we have different amounts of time on this earth. We have different amounts of intelligence, we have different amounts of opportunity. 

and it's not about comparing to the next guy, it's about saying, what do you do with what's been entrusted to you? 

David: Yeah. And I think that's actually a good point of it moves it away from this measure of success because success usually involves comparison to someone else. It's like, no, you're not paying attention to your talent that you've been entrusted with. 

You're too busy looking at Joe Rogan's podcast numbers or something like that. 

Right. You know? 

JR: I was about to say, since we brought up the podcast numbers, right? Yeah, 

David: right.  

JR: yeah. 

David: If that's gonna be your measure of success, then you're always gonna get discouraged, right? And it's like, I'm not calling you to that, or, or the investor that's made a billion dollars, right? It's like, no, I'm not calling you that. I'm calling you to be faithful with what you have been given, and I just don't want you to squander it,  

JR: Yeah. and the, the master expected growth.  

David: Yeah. And transformation. It's the transformation again, right?  

JR: [00:50:00] Yeah. And it's like you said, the kingdom assumes risk because I thought about this idea of burying the image, the symbolic imagery of burying, my guess is, you know, we've, we've, you and I went to Qumran, we saw where the Dead Sea Scrolls were at. 

In the ancient culture, burying something, burying money was actually considered a pretty responsible way to protect it, right? They didn't have Fidelity 401k investments, right? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: It was a reasonable thing. That's why we occasionally find buried treasure. 'Cause that was a responsible way to protect it. And the question is, why in this story does Jesus condemn it? And to what you said, it's about risk. It's not about preservation, it's about, in this case, multiplication. It's about growth. And so this parable in a lot of ways kind of dismantles the spiritual minimalism that we have seen around us. 

Sometime the, the, well, you know, yeah, I go to church when the doors are open [00:51:00] and I, you know, it's like, man, that's not what Jesus is saying. He wants transformation. He's not interested in, in the spiritual checkbox that we do the Sunday morning ritual, he's interested in an internal multiplicative, I don't know if that's a word, but he's interested in growth, he's interested in transformation, and that takes us back to the ground, the seed, the organic nature of the gospel. 

David: Oh, it's so interesting that so many of these parables have revolved around planting a seed in the soil, right in the ground. Because that's where a seed grows. But you don't take, you know, you don't take a stack of a hundred dollars bills and put it in the ground. The ground will actually eventually 

JR: Consume it. 

David: consume it. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: So it's 

JR: Yeah. 

David: there is this, I, I like that. It's, it something about misplaced, The ground is not the proper place for that. The ground is a proper place for a seed, 

JR: Mm-hmm. 

David: And that's where transformation. But you know, you're taking something that [00:52:00] is inorganic and you put it in the ground and what you, you expect it to do something? 

JR: Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that. The ground is a proper place for a seed, not for gold coins or stacks of a hundred dollars bills. You're exactly right. 

David: Yeah. In fact, there's other places in the Bible where, you know, they're given coins and some of their coins were metals. You bury a coin in the ground and what happens? It actually rusts and becomes worthless. 

JR: Yeah. And, and turns to dust over time. 

David: yeah. So 

JR: Yeah. No, that's good. 

David: the ground is not the proper place for your talents, right? 

In fact, that's maybe where the servant was mistaken to go. I preserved it in the ground and Jesus was like, you know, you idiot. 

If you bury something inorganic, you know, at best it's not gonna do anything. And at worst it's just gonna disintegrate. But there's no possibility of transformation. 

JR: Yeah. Well, it's the old song, which is, comes from the Bible, you know? What do you do with the light? You don't hide it under a bushel. No. Right. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: You don't. That's not what you do with light, [00:53:00] because light is meant to fill up the room. Why in the world would you put it under a, what was the term? It wasn't a bushel, maybe it was, uh. 

David: Yeah I think it is  

JR: Okay. So, yeah, but you don't, you don't take a light. Yeah. You don't hide it under a basket, or you don't, I mean, that's ridiculous. So you gotta have it out so it can get air and so it can light up the room. 

Okay. Yeah. One last thing before we move on. That last line, to everyone who has, will more be given, but from the one who has not even what he has will be taken away. Right. Again, we talked about this a few episodes ago. That doesn't seem fair, right? That seems like the last will be first. What do you think he's saying here specifically with that line? 

David: Yeah. It just goes back to that idea of the teachings of Jesus and what are you gonna do with it, and well, knowledge. I think that's what we talked about before, this idea that knowledge transforms almost if you let it, right? And there's people that have, you know, to use the phrase, there's people who have talent, right? 

There's people who have knowledge, there's people who have [00:54:00] skill. And, and it seems to be that to transform that into something more is very easy for them. 

JR: Right, 

David: And it get's back to, we've said this before, it gets back to that unfair nature of the kingdom. Now, he is not saying the value of that person, but there is this idea that those who are willing to take these teachings of mind, to apply them to take risks, they're going to be given more, more and more is going to be entrusted to them, as opposed to the one who is playing it safe. 

You know, who's like, man, I just, you know, I go to church on Sunday to cover my bases, but other than that, I try not to screw up. It's like, would God entrust anything more to that person? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: And so there is this like, so whatever that person has is going to be taken away from them. 

JR: Right. I also think it's just describing reality. You know what I mean? Like you said about the talented people. Sometimes you see talented people, you hear about talented people and you're like, are you kidding me? This guy was an NFL football player, and now he's this [00:55:00] really popular broadcaster and he's pivoted into it. 

He wrote a book, a bestselling book, and you're like, how in the world can all this, all these gifts be given to one person? But that's kind of the compounding nature of not just talents, you know, it's like how you use your life. It's something like engagement, increases capacity and avoidance shrinks it. 

And so if you think that you can merely play it safe and hold onto what you have, that's not the way the world works. If you avoid to, to engage in it, it's just gonna shrink down to nothing. Like you said, the ground is just gonna devour it, right? And so if you lean into responsibility, you know, you've seen the, I've seen this in my own life, and you lean into responsibility, your world expands. 

And if you retreat from responsibility and say, I've just got too much on my plate, you just find your world contracting. And that's, well, that's fractal, right? That's that fractal idea. But it's everywhere. That's life. That's the way the world works. 

David: So it really is it's a call for me to [00:56:00] say, find out where people are responding to you and entrusting more to you, right? 

I may like do this over here, but there's no return on it. You know, 

I like to do this over here, and it's like I get pats on the back and people are like, man, I like what you're doing. You know? And it's like, okay follow that.  

JR: In  

David: one of the fairytale series we were talking about where the vines part, right? Where the hedges part. 

It's like, man, go through the hedge when it parts, and you could say, well, I don't know what's on the other side. 

Well, that's the risk part, but it's an invitation too, right? It's an invitation to say, man, those around you are responding to this, you know? And so whether that's you're teaching a Bible study and people are like, man, I really get a lot out of it. Well go with that then. 

Maybe it's something else. Maybe it's serving the poor and people are like man, you really bring me a lot of comfort. Well, go with that then. And,  

JR: You've got a gift. 

David: look at, yeah, I look at that as a call. It's a [00:57:00] call, it's a challenge for me personally to say, pay attention to where people are naturally gravitating towards you. But don't define your success based on what others are doing too, because that's the pitfall, right? 

JR: Well that goes back to the, my idea of the fruit that you can have a healthy fruit tree that doesn't produce any fruit, but Jesus in his parables, he's saying, no, that's worth cutting down. You throw it away. And so the fruit is when other people are coming to you for the fruit, right? And so it kind of fundamentally goes against what we tell kids of you can be anything if you put your mind to it. And it's like, I guess that's fine for talking to a kid, but you also don't want to send the message that, hey, if you love singing, but you don't have the voice for it, you know you're gonna end up being a meme. We talked about that. You're gonna end up the internet is forever, man. 

You don't want that out there. Right? Go with the things that people respond with and reinforce and say, Hey, you, you got a, you got a natural gift with that. And maybe [00:58:00] it's not something you love doing. Like if you, maybe, maybe you got, people have a gift with working with kids sometimes, and that may not be what you want in your heart. 

Maybe you want to do something else, but if that's what you keep hearing, it's like, man, you got a knack with my kid. He just loves you. she goes crazy when you come in the room. It's like, man, let's take that as a sign and lean into that responsibility and then you're gonna start seeing the multiplication take place. 

David: yeah there's so much to the end of the story. I mean, you could spend a whole episode just talking about the end of this story, but we'll wrap it up with this and then we'll move on. But this is again, where you see, he says, whoever does not have even what they have will be taken from them. 

And then he says, and this is where it escalates, right? And throw that worthless servant outside into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So, that's what we're talking about today, and we're gonna wrap up with that, that that's the picture of judgment. So it's not just that I'm not gonna employ you anymore, right? It's that judgment is coming [00:59:00] for your what, for your lack of stewardship of what you are entrusted with. 

JR: Well, I mean, okay, so consider this, you know, what if the outer darkness is simply the natural outcome of refusing to participate in the light or, or refusing to, participate in the kingdom? And if, and if the kingdom is dynamic growth and we continually withdraw to places, outside of that, then that the natural outcome is gonna be darkness. 

You know what I mean? I think it's, I think there's something to that light and darkness thing. It's like it, well, if you continually retreat into the cave, don't be surprised when you're not experiencing the light. You know, maybe that's what the outer darkness represents, as opposed to sort of jumping into a salvific interpretation of that and saying, well, this guy was thrown into hell for it. 

You know what I mean? 

David: We'll, we'll get to that, but yeah, maybe you're right. There is an a level of where if I think I can sing and I use AI to [01:00:00] record my own songs and put it out on Apple, right? It's like the outer darkness is the fact that no one has downloaded my album, right? And I say, 

Hey, did you listen to my album? You're like, yeah, dude. You know, have you ever thought about getting back to writing? You know, or something like that. It's like, 

JR: yeah. Or worse, you're exposed, you know? 

David: It's almost like that's the, that's the darkness, right? it's the loneliness of, and we have a lot of people who go, I, you know, I'm lonely. I don't know my place in life. In a sense, it's like, that's almost a form of outer darkness. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: There's no light around me encouraging me to do anything. Which is a sign again, that you haven't found what your talent is. 

JR: or you're not listening, you're insistent on, this is what I want to do, this is how I want to be successful. And you're not listening to the people around you. 

David: Yeah. Yeah. 

JR: Okay. Well, this is, you're right. We could go on to this, man. I'm even thinking of other ideas. I'm like, okay, man, this could be here, but in, in the sake of time, maybe we should just move on to the banquet. 

David: Yeah. The last thing I'll [01:01:00] say though is the more I read that about the talent, you really could, it, it's almost like you could teach this for several weeks to young people to teach them how to respond to where life is calling them. Right? 

JR: Yeah. Well, it's like you said, loneliness is an epidemic in our modern culture more so than the past. And so yeah, if you wanna know what the outer darkness is man, it's, it's inside to some degree. You know, I don't wanna minimize what, what this represents, but a lot of times we create our own outer darkness on the inside. 

David: yeah. There's definitely that form of it where I've created a world that is basically, you know, my own personal hell. We even have that phrase, right? 

JR: Right. 

David: I've created this own personal hell that I have to live in and yeah, unfortunately you see that play out sometimes, but yeah. That's the outer darkness. 

JR: No, I think it's, I think it's a good idea to take this and to really kind of focus it on the younger generation because it really is a problem. And I, I think this kind of addresses [01:02:00] several misconceptions that we kind of tell kids in our modern day,  

David: Yeah, All right. So the parable of the great banquet, this is the next one, and it's in Luke chapter 14. Verses 15 through it looks like 24. And so again, take a listen to it and we'll come back and talk about it. 

When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God. Jesus replied, A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests at the time of the banquet. He sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, come for everything is now ready. 

But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, I have just bought a field and I must go and see it. Please excuse me. Another said, I have just bought five yoke of oxen and I'm on my way to try them out. Please, excuse me, still. Another said, I just got married so I can't come. The servant came back and reported this to his [01:03:00] master. 

Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame, sir. The servant said What you ordered has been done, but there is still room. The master told his servant go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in so that my house will be full. 

I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet. 

JR: Okay. There you go. Another story that on the surface seems pretty simple, but when you start digging in, it gets a lot more complex than we realize. And so, yeah, we have this man who's prepared a great banquet, and he sends out invitations and when the feast is ready, the invited guests begin to decline. 

David: So we should start for the setting too, because this is actually kind of funny to me because the setting is literally a banquet. It's literally a dinner that he's having, right? 

So, Jesus goes over to the house of a [01:04:00] Pharisee and Jesus tells him the story about, you know, but when you invite a banquet, invite the poor and the crippled. And the lame, and then it said, this is funny to me. It said, when one of those at the table heard him, he said to Jesus, blessed is the one who will eat at the feast of the Kingdom of Heaven. Alright, that's a total kiss up move right there, right? And Jesus sees 

JR: yeah, 

David: right through it. Right. You know? 

So he goes, Jesus, blessed are the people who can banquet in the kingdom of heaven. 

Now, what's implied in that statement, it's interesting, is he's implying that he's referring to himself, right? He's patting himself on the back with that statement. 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like he wants Jesus to say, well, you're in, dude, you know, be looking for your invite in the mail. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: It's coming your way. 

David: That's right. 

So that sets the tone then of yeah, let's talk about who's going to attend this banquet. And so that's when the story starts to get into, invitations are sent out, but the guest list, they all start [01:05:00] to decline, right? I'm busy, I'm not gonna do it. And so, it immediately is this picture of, first of all, he totally, you know, he totally owns this guy who just did a kiss up move of, you know, blessed are those who will dine in the kingdom of. 

'cause he is clearly talking about like the Jewish leaders and the nation of Israel, like the kingdom of is for us. And Jesus is like, Hmm, let's talk about that for a minute. Right? 

JR: Yeah. And not everybody that thinks they're getting an invitation is gonna end up in the feast. 

David: Yeah. So the first level you have is that those who the invitation was extended to have actually turned it down. 

JR: right. And it's kind of cool that the excuses that they give, they're kind of reasonable excuses. You know, one's buying land and they're testing oxen and one's getting married. It's like, okay, I can't come because I'm getting married. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: You're gonna have to talk to my wife about that. Best of luck getting her to change your mind or getting her to change the date. You know what I mean? Like, these are reasonable excuses. so the excuses [01:06:00] themselves are not sinful, right? These are even good things, but maybe that's, that's the kind of the bite of this story. It's another sting from the, the previous parables that they're not rejecting the banquet because they hate it, because they don't want to go. It's almost like it's saying they're distracted by the ordinary, right? 

David: Yeah, it's really a failure to recognize the time because the great banquet was an image of, you know, when God's kingdom fully comes, and Jews would've known this at Jesus' time, they would've immediately gone to this idea when Jesus is talking about a great banquet right at the end of the age, that the Jews were like, okay, that's God's kingdom right there. 

So when you frame it that way, yes, the ex excuses are legitimate, but it's also a failure to understand the moment, which ties back to some of the others. 'Cause it's like I don't know. I think of an example. It's like if I said, man, Jesus is returning next [01:07:00] weekend. I'm not gonna say that 'cause it's always wrong, right? But it's like, 

JR: Right? 

David: I can't do that, man. I, I have a, I have a pickleball game. Right? It's like, 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. Or even I'm getting married. 

David: Or even I'm getting married. Yeah. It's 

JR: yeah, reorient. Yeah. 

David: The absurdity is, it's almost showed how screwed up your priorities got, because the point of all 

JR: Yeah, 

David: is the culmination of God's kingdom and now all of a sudden you saying, well, I'm getting married that weekend. It's kind of like, dude, do you even know what you're saying? Right. It's, 

JR: Yeah. You're right. I think it's, I think you're right. It's not understanding the moment. So these weren't rejected invitations, or at least they didn't think that's what it was. It was like they refused to go because they were preoccupied because they didn't understand what the moment meant. 

And I'm glad you said that about the Jewish imagination that at the end of the age was gonna be a great banquet. I think it's Isaiah 25 that says, God is preparing a feast on the mountain, right? And [01:08:00] so the banquet in the Jewish sense symbolized like the consummation of the covenant, the celebration after their struggle, you know, joy, abundance, right? 

All those things. So it's a lot more than the modern reader who looks at it and says, oh, this is a great feast and it'll be great and there'll be eating and drinking and friendship and all this type. It's like, no, it's a consummation of a covenant to the Jewish people. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: And so when they, again, when they refuse the invitation, it's interesting that it wasn't a rejection of, ah, I don't have time for that. 

It was just that they were preoccupied. And again, that's kind of one of those scary things. You know, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will be, will enter into the kingdom of heaven. It's meant for us to look in the mirror and say, E is that me? Because I don't wanna be that guy. You know? And so I think that's the stage he's setting here. 

David: so the first thing is they definitely think they're in [01:09:00] right? 

But they've misunderstood the gravity of the moment because they just view what I'm already in, so the banquet's not important. I've got my priorities wrong because I'm preoccupied with these other cares of life and I actually lost sight of what the kingdom is doing. 

It's culmination, right? So it's that type of thing. So what do you make about this idea then? That he says, go bring out the poor and the crippled and the blind and the lame. And then he says, go out to the roads in country lanes and tell them to come into my house. 

JR: Yeah, well, you and me are the poor and the crippled. And the blind in the lame, and I'll explain that by saying that the original invitees, they represent a group of people that assumed they belong. Right? They're the religious insiders, they're the heirs of the original covenant speaking directly to the Jews, right? 

And so then we go to this second round, the poor and the, the lame. And those represent those, [01:10:00] uh, who originally the Gentiles, right? Who, who in Jesus' time were considered outside of God's blessing,  

David: Yeah. 

JR: So, yeah, if you wanna know who the poor and the cripple to lame, it's you and me, man. We we're not we are not original Jews. 

And so, so It's not just like a social inversion. He's not just merely saying, well, hey, if, if the highest social rung can't show up to my party, well, I'm gonna start inviting the cripple in the lame, and then obviously eventually goes, moves on to the outsider. 

He goes even further than that, right? So it's more than just a social like inversion. he's basically upending, we've said this before, the religious structure of the day. And so, again, to go back to the guy who originally asked the question, it's, it's more than him. Jesus saying, well, you know, you better, you better double check before you think you're getting an invitation. 

He's saying that you got an invitation, but you're rejecting it. You just don't realize it yet. And, through your rejection the outsider is gonna be invited to this [01:11:00] banquet that you think is exclusively for you. 

David: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. like that image of, he says, go out to the country lanes. Right? And, and I almost picture this as like a foretelling of look, the gospel, you know, after my death and resurrection, it's like, man, the gospel, you guys don't get it. The gospel's gonna go beyond the bounds of Israel, right? Paul's gonna take this through the Roman Empire.  

JR: Right. 

David: That's who this banquet is going to bring in And there's this, you know, so you go back to the Old Testament, it's like you guys were supposed to be priests to the rest of the world and bless them and bring them in, and you're not doing it. Well, guess what? The gospel's going out there anyway. 

And you're actually running the risk of being on the outside watching this banquet taking place, wondering how Romans are in there, wondering how lepers are in. 

JR: Yeah. 

Well I was gonna ask who you think the outsider is, because I was just assuming that the insiders are the original Jews under the original [01:12:00] covenant, and the second round is you and me. But maybe it's a little bit more nuance than that. Well, I'll throw it out to you 'cause I can't think through this that quickly. 

David: I, 
 

JR: Yeah. Do you think there's something to the three layers? 

David: Yeah, I think there was definitely, within Israel, the religious class basically said, if you go back to that idea of the Pharisees, the Pharisees said, we will initiate God's kingdom by turning the whole country to be righteous. Right? And so the Pharisees actually saw the righteous versus the unrighteous, not even talking about Gentiles, right? 

JR: Right, right. 

David: You are the people who are screwing this up. I do think that second layer of the poor and the crippled and the blind, it's like these are the people who are the Pharisees are looking at and saying, you guys are screwing this up. You gotta get your act together that God can consummate his kingdom. And Jesus is saying the ones who are gonna be invited in and you're missing the boat. 

I do think there are layers [01:13:00] there before then you get to the idea of the country roads. I definitely think that is the spreading out of the gospel, right? To Judea, Samaria, and all the ends of the earth. 

JR: Okay. Well, good. So we're not the crippled, the blind in the lame. We're merely the outsiders. We're outside the city. 

David: We're the yeah, we're the country bumpkins out, you know, in the country lanes that don't even know what's going on, right? 

JR: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's right. 

Well, it's just cool that, that it's. Again, the surface reading is that we should invite everybody. Right. Well, it, it, it's almost like going back to that idea of equality. It's like, well, let's not leave anybody out on, on the outskirts. Let's bring everybody in. You know, we've talked about before, the center of the city versus the, the edges, the fringes. 

And this is not a simple thing of, hey, make the fringes the central idea. Now that's, it's saying something else. It's actually inverting the religious structure of the time and saying that this is the new reality it's about to go to. 

Yeah. You, you guys are [01:14:00] worried about Jesus coming back or the savior coming back and judging Rome. Well, here's the savior, and not only is he not judging Rome, he's actually inviting them to the end banquet. Like you can imagine, no wonder they tried to kill him. You know, it's like we can't have that. 

David: And it's definitely a warning to those who think they are in already. And again, you look at that today at the church community, it's like if I'm sitting there going, well, I'm in, I dunno about you. This is definitely a warning to go Jesus saying like, don't, don't assume all that. 

Like back to this idea of building your house on the rock. Whoever's actually obeying these teachings of mine, know, it's not this idea of, because I'm with the right group I'm in. That's not how the kingdom works. 

JR: Yeah. Okay. So to tie it into the other two parables, what he's saying is there's something about participation in the kingdom that requires us to accept the invitation, right? It's not just that we're in the [01:15:00] club, like you said, and to go to the talents, you know, stewardship requires risk. 

Like you said if you go to the, the, the two builders, obedience requires action. And so here what he's saying is participation requires availability or something like that. You can't feast if you're constantly managing your property or worried about getting married or, training the oxen. You know what I mean? 

And, and so I think he's saying it just ties into the other two parables in that interesting way. It's, it's not like. you're either in the club via your bloodline or not. It's saying, no, it's gonna, it's gonna require active participation, which goes back to the growth, which goes back to the transformation. 

I mean, these tie together more clearly than you think when you dig, down and find the pattern here. 

David: Yeah, and I think also implied in there is that not just that everyone else is in and you're out. There was an acceptance of the invitation implied when he goes to the poor and the [01:16:00] blind and then he goes to the country roads and the far off lands. There's, I think it's implied that they heard and accepted. It's not just that they are in either, right? Because that's what this whole parable is about. You can't just assume you're in. 

JR: Well, okay, so what about that final line that, what is it? None of those invited shall taste my banquet. that's a pretty hard line, you know, that's a tough one to swallow. What do you, what do you make of that? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: Like, that's a haunting image almost, you know? 

David: You could read that to say, well, none of you religious people are getting in. But I don't think that's what he's saying. But I think he's saying, those of you who are resting on your laurels and think you're already in and you don't have to accept the invitation. Maybe that's a better way of saying Jesus is is saying none of you gonna be at the banquet. and this good way to to this last parable, then we can wrap this up. I mean that's the way these stories work. It's a little bit like none of you are getting in. You go, well that's harsh. But it's also the [01:17:00] invitation to say, unless you accept the invitation now, unless you hear these teachings of mine and respond. Right? 

JR: if you're foolish enough to think that the master is gonna cancel the feast, you're wrong. Right? It goes on with or without you. 

then Maybe that's a better way to see it. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: The kingdom doesn't stall because of your refusal to act. And that's exactly what the Pharisees thought. 

They thought that the kingdom wasn't coming because I can't get all these layman crippled people on board. they're continuing to live their life in sin. Right. and it's almost like Jesus saying, watch out now. 'cause trust me, the kingdom's coming with or without you, it's just a matter of whether or not you accept the invitation and be forewarned. 'Cause it's passing you by. 

David: Yeah. And you're gonna miss it. But that's why I'm talking to you right now because you have an opportunity to respond. 

JR: Okay. Okay. No, that's good. 

David: Okay. So the last one, and we'll let people listen to this, is the sheep and the goats. And there's a lot going on here, but I will say this is probably the most graphic image of this idea [01:18:00] that God's kingdom is coming you have to make a decision and there's going to be a judgment, right, that separates who accept it and those who rejected. 

So this is the Parable of Sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. And again, we'll let people listen to it and then we can come back and talk about it just for a minute. 

When the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another. As a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 

Then the king will say to those on his right, come you who are blessed by my father. Take your inheritance. The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. 

I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked [01:19:00] after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me. Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in or needing clothes and clothe you? 

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you? The king will reply. Truly, I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels for I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. 

I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison, and you did not look after me. They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison and did not help you? 

[01:20:00] He will reply. Truly, I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these you did not do for me, then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.  

JR: Okay. This is another one of those parables where kind of like I mentioned earlier, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord is gonna enter into the kingdom of heaven. It's sort of the same thing. It's like, we, we got the sheep and the goats, and to the sheep. He says I was hungry and you gave me food, right? And then the disciples are like, wait, when were you hungry and we didn't feed you? And so it's another one of those kind of jarring things that's kind of frightens the listener thinking, uhoh am am I not paying attention? Am I missing opportunities? 

How do you wanna open this up? And what's your take on it? 

David: Okay, so a couple things. There's definitely this separation. And again, it's a picture of judgment. We've talked about a lot of these end with this idea of this culminates in God coming and God coming involves a certain [01:21:00] type of judgment and separation, right? 

JR: Yeah, 

David: So there's definitely this idea that I think that's pretty recognizable that those, who are for me, have been acting on my behalf, whether they know it or not, And those who 

JR: Yeah. 

David: are being separated out are those who, again, it's the same thing, kind of like they thought they were in, but they're actually not acting on my behalf in this world. So 

JR: Yeah, this is one of those where both groups are confused here, right? Which is kind of interesting. 

David: Yeah, that's right. Both are confused. Both kind of have this idea of, I'm out. And Jesus goes, no, you're in. And in group's like I'm in and Jesus like, no you're not, right? 

JR: Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. 

David: But, I don't know. Let's talk about this image too, of sheep and goats. 'cause I like that imagery because Jesus says those who are in, like, he calls them sheep. I think in our culture today, you're not necessarily giving someone a compliment when you call them sheep, right? So I think that's, [01:22:00] I think it's interesting. 

JR: And conversely, if you're the goat, that's the highest compliment. 

David: It's okay. Yeah. There's that imagery there, right? There's that symbolism of we call the, greatest of all time. Is that what it is? 

JR: Yeah. Right. 

David: And that's the goat. What it, I don't know. What do you do with that anyway, 

JR: It's a it's a symbol of our times. Yeah. Of how everything's upside down. Yeah. 

David: Yeah. Because in our culture today, when you say someone's a sheep, you think you're just a mindless follower. But in Jesus' day, the sheep was a passive, peaceful animal. But the great strength of the sheep, let's put it this way, is that actually, what you would say, it obeyed the shepherd. they were very obedient animals.  

And so I think Jesus is calling out what we might see as a weakness. Jesus is calling out as obedience to the shepherd, and that's a, that's a big strength in the kingdom of heaven. Does that make sense? 

JR: Yeah, it does. But, okay. So are you [01:23:00] saying that the ancients saw it the same way we kind of did? That a sheep is an idiot animal that just, 

David: No, 

JR: Mindless follower or, are you saying that, that we've inverted it and the ancients understood the value of a sheep and the lack of value of the goats? What's the hate on goats, by the way? 

David: Okay, we'll get to that. Yeah, 

JR: Okay. All right. 

David: So I think it's that inversion of modern culture, because I do think the ancient understood, well, first of all, all throughout the Old Testament, I keep saying this, like Israel is described as the herd of sheep and the shepherd. 

JR: Right. 

David: Right? So that would be language that would describe Israel. And so they didn't have, I don't think necessarily a negative connotation of sheep, but Jesus is basically calling out the obedience of the sheep,  

JR: Right. 

David: there's that shepherd imagery all throughout the Bible. So that's the first thing. And I think it's our culture that actually sees I don't wanna say passive, but we characterize passive obedience as a [01:24:00] weakness, If we go, aww, they're just a bunch of sheep. We just go, they're unthinking. They're just blindly following their ideology. That's basically what we mean today when we refer to people as a bunch of sheep. 

JR: Which is why you, you talk about faith. You put mindless in front of it, mindless faith, and that's kind of the Yeah. That's the way that's seen also, right? 

David: Yeah. So what's interesting about goats is. First of all, Israelites would've had goats. They didn't have pigs. Pigs were impure, But goats, I think were almost seen. Here's the inversion again. Goats were almost seen as more stubborn and independent. 

JR: Yeah. If you've ever dealt with goats Yeah. You know what, you know where that comes from. Don't turn your back on them. 

David: Think of our hike in Crete, you know, we saw those goats, like they weren't herd animals. They were doing their own thing. And then we passed dead goats, right? Because they were scaling these ridiculous cliff  

JR: faces. 

David: And clearly some of had fallen. So goats are like this, independent goats are gonna do their own thing. It's like, we might think of a cat today, right? 

It's like, well, [01:25:00] cats are gonna do whatever a cat wants, right? I think that's kind of how goats were viewed. But, rhere again, our culture has inverted that, and we view that independence as a strength. I don't know. Do you think that makes sense? 

JR: Oh, no, I think, I think it makes perfect sense and it, it's particularly our American culture, 'cause you and I have talked about this before, is that we value independence to the point that independent means that you're wearing absurd clothes or you're doing this absurd tattooing, or you're, you know what I mean? 

And this is not me banging on, you know, what's right or wrong. I'm just saying that in our culture, there is extreme individuality, and you want to paint that on the outside of yourself. You know, when you see the person that is completely wearing something absurd, what they're doing is they're screaming, I'm an individual. 

and so Yeah, you just don't, and, and not all cultures are like that. Even in the modern day. I, I [01:26:00] was reading something that says uh, basically the Oriental the Chinese culture is a lot more focused on the broader society, you know, that. The government, all those things are much more important, right. 

And they don't want to be, you know, this hyper individualistic person. 

David: Right. 

JR: And so, yeah, that, that actually is a pretty good description of an independent person, maybe at one extreme being a goat and the dependent person on the other extreme being a sheep. Or the sheep. 

David: Yeah. And then you add the layer. So we're talking about the goat is then is the independent. I'm gonna be my own person. I'm not gonna conform to society. Kind of those things. Then you have, actually, it's interesting because in a lot of Greek mythology, the goat is who is, I won't say worshiped, but the goat is who represents some of the gods. Right? 

JR: I was gonna ask about that, 

David: It's not the sheep. So you think of the deity Pan, Pan is a goat god. 

[01:27:00] even the I think it's the Feast of Dionysus, there's a sacrifice of a goat. And so I do think there is this contrast that in the Greek culture, goats were kind of the thing, for whatever reason. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: There's a reason why pan is a goat God. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: And why the goat is a sacred animal to Dionysus. It's almost like they've actually praised and valued that individuality. You might say that stubbornness, I'm gonna do my own thing. And again, kind of, all right, so what does our culture today represent? 

JR: Well, it's interesting that the pagan icons of today, it's the goat headed Baphomet, or, I mean, there there's, there's a lot of goat headed deities, I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg. I don't know if it's, if they were, that was the original deity first, or or the satanic religions. 

if they adopted the goat image, because it was seen as the outsider, it was seen as the right in, in contrast to the [01:28:00] sheep. So I'm not sure, but No, that's interesting. You're right. That Greek culture did have a lot of goat gods and I can't think of any sheep gods. 

David: I can't either. 

JR: To your point. 

David: If you know of one, let us know. But yeah, I can't think of any sheep gods there, but there are multiple of, goat deities, right? 

JR: I always heard that there's something unclean, quote unquote, about a goat because of a split hoof versus a single hoof. I think I'm getting into some kind of Levitical stuff. I'm not exactly sure where, why I remember that. 

But that oxen sheep, they have a single hoof as opposed to the goat. They have split hoof. I wonder what the, I wonder if there's any significance to that.  

David: I don't know where the goat falls on the clean and unclean. Okay. But there is the image then now that you bring it up. So in the Old Testament and even, you know, at the temple time of Jesus, like what is offered as a sacrifice to God, it's, it's lamb, right? It's a sheep. 

And in the Old Testament what animal is used to place the [01:29:00] sins of the camp on and sent into the wilderness. It's the goat.  

JR: The scapegoat. Yeah. 

David: And there's even this idea of like, it's set apart for, I think it's Azazel or something, which is literally a goat demon that lives in the wilderness, right? 

JR: Yeah. 

David: And so that imagery is all through there. 

JR: Okay, let me interrupt because it was driving me crazy. I had to look this up, right? And so it says in the book of Leviticus, there were two markers to evaluate a clean animal. And it was a split and a cloven hoof, I think I wrongly said that sheep don't have split hooves, but they do. And cows. 

But they had to have a split hoof and they have to chew the cud, which, which is interesting because what they're saying is something like the split hoof is our outward behavior or how we walk in the world and chewing the cud is our inward behavior. Whether we, how we digest something, how we consume something, right? 

And so a pig was unclean, even [01:30:00] though it has a split hoof, it looks right outwardly, but it lacks this inner reflection that we're talking about. And a camel, for instance, it chews the cud, but it doesn't have a split hoof. So it's it, it's processing properly inward, but it doesn't have the proper outward walk, right? 

So that symbolism is kind of cool now that, now that we've looked that up. 'Cause it plays into exactly what we're talking about. 

David: Yeah. So you could take from this, this idea of those who will enter, if you bring all that together, those who enter the kingdom of heaven have the proper, I don't wanna say outward appearance, but, but 

JR: Well, the proper outward walk. Yeah. 

David: and sufficient internal processing to, you know, to take all this seriously, to basically have to be dedicated, not just to be, it's all for show, but you're dedicated to this there's a proper outward, wherever you said it before. 

Yeah. That, that kind of makes sense. And if you're deficient in one or the other, then the warning is when God's kingdom comes, you don't wanna [01:31:00] be left out, You don't wanna be the unclean because you thought it was all show. Or I forget how you said the thing about the uh proper outward appearance. 

JR: Oh, the outward walk, right. The walk your outward walk versus your inward, Intentional processing. 

David: And actually the Outward Walk actually fits with this parable. 'cause he's like, when did we do all this for you? And he's like, well, you were doing it, right? You were feeding the poor, you were giving water to people who were thirsty. You were doing all these things. That's the outward walk. 

JR: right. But just for clarity, I think I said earlier that a goat was unclean. A goat is not necessarily unclean. A goat could be sacrificed just like a sheep. But you're right the typical sacrifices is a sheep or a goat. So again, this isn't necessarily representing clean and unclean like we're talking about. 

I just thought that was a fascinating rabbit trail there.  

David: Yeah. And so maybe there's, again, we've said this before, maybe there's a bit of a dig at the religious leaders of, you know, calling them goats that's, because I do think there's a bit of a, still a bit of [01:32:00] a, dig if you refer to someone as a goat in that culture, it was kind of like, you're not unclean. 

Maybe the pig is obvious. Like the pig is obviously not getting into the kingdom of Heaven, right? 

Nothing against pigs. They're delicious. But if you're Jewish, they were off limits. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: But I do think there's that connotation of the goat is the goat isn't the proper sacrifice, right? The goat is the scapegoat, the goat is 

JR: Right, 

David: That's the pagan symbol, even though it's not an unclean animal, even though they had use in Israel, even though they were raised, you know, you could eat them. All that stuff like, so yeah, all that is there. Wow. There's a lot in there. 

JR: Yeah, there is. Okay. So what do you think about, the least of these? Who are the least of these Is it deeper than simply? What is it? The hungry, the naked, the poor? 

David: Yeah.  

JR: You think there's something deeper between that? 

David: When you start to pull all these together, there's definitely the hungry, the poor again, I, I think those are Israelites that aren't seen [01:33:00] as having their act together. They aren't seen as righteous Israel. And again, those would be the least of these. 'cause in this conversation, they're even talking about the Gentiles, right? 

the, so yeah, I, I think the least of these is another way to talk about the poor, the blind, the lame, which 

JR: Yeah. So that goes back to the banquet.  

David: And it might go back to the idea of poor and you're lame because you sinned. Right? There was def, there was that connection in religious Israelite culture as well. 

I think they come across a lame man or something. And one of the disciples even asked Jesus, like, Jesus, what did this guy do? Right. To become lame. In other words, what sin did he commit? And Jesus like, no. You know, that's not how this works. 

JR: Right. Yeah. But there's also, there's also that aspect of, these are descriptions of like socially invisible people. The good Samaritan, those are people you avoid the guy that's beat up on the road. Let's go around the other side, right? So these are like people socially invisible. 

[01:34:00] And so the deeper idea is a, I would say yes, it's the surface idea is yes, we need to reach out and actually help those people, but I think the deeper idea is that the kingdom of God hides itself in the overlooked, you know what I mean? It's the sower and the seed. I think we mentioned that in that podcast that you don't find transformation where everybody is looking. It's like the kingdom of God hides in the overlooked. 

And so if you're on the path talking about the seed that fell on the path, it's all packed down. There's no, there's nothing to discover there. It's, it's only in the good ground where the seed can penetrate. And so yeah, it goes back to this transformation idea of it hiding in the places that are typically socially invisible or something like that. 

David: Yeah. And, and just as you were talking, so it goes a little bit beyond that even because in that culture at that time be lame, to be sick, you were unclean. Now it doesn't mean you couldn't get clean, but you [01:35:00] were unclean.  

JR: right. Until, yeah. Until you cleansed yourself 

David: right. 

JR: the proper rituals. Right? 

David: Clean and unclean. 

But those, maybe those are the people that were seen as unclean and maybe if you're in this perpetual state of being unclean to the religious leaders, again, it's like you're the problem.  

JR: Yeah, 

David: what I mean?  

JR: Yeah, yeah. 

David: What you're saying about these are the overlooked, these are the people who are unclean, but Jesus is saying the invitation is extended to them, and a lot of them are going to accept it, and these unclean, they're gonna be the ones at the banquet. 

JR: Yeah. Well just look at the criteria. I mean, there's no mention of the correct doctrine, and I'm not downplaying doctrine or saying that it doesn't matter, but you know the correct doctrine, spiritual experiences. You Charismatic gifts, you know what I mean? All these things that we put, put weight in. 

And instead he says, you know, he's talking about [01:36:00] food, water, hospitality. Right? He's talking about the simple things. It's this inversion of what we think is important and how we would judge somebody who is spiritually excellent, let's say, and it, it inverts it and says, no, that's not, that's not what I'm talking about. And again, I don't wanna say that stuff doesn't matter, but I'm saying that there's something shockingly simple about, the criteria of the people that are, that are end up being sheep, you know, that end up going into the kingdom. 

And you're right. I can't stop going back to that transformational ground of the seed growing into something as opposed to that chiseled, rigid in stone chiseling of the law. Jesus is inverting that yet again. It it like he does in almost all the other parables. Now I can't stop seeing it. 

David: Talking about this, I also actually like that image of, oddly enough, 'cause I wouldn't have thought this was a big takeaway, but the split hoof and the chewing, the cud Jesus is talking about. I really do think that symbolism is almost built in there. [01:37:00] That he's talking about these are the people who walk the right path and they have properly inwardly process all this to where they're just naturally living it out. they don't fall to one or the other. Because what we don't wanna say too is because it's easy to reduce this to go well, then Jesus just is saying, you've gotta be a good person. Eh, that's not what he's saying either,  

JR: Yeah. Well, okay, so being a good person is important, but I think we've said this before, it's the idea of God is less concerned or Jesus is less concerned with what we do and more concerned about who we are. 

And that's not to say that what we do doesn't matter. Of course it matters, but it's, it's, he's, again, it goes back to that transformation. He wants transformation to where this is what naturally flows out. This is who we've become through the transformation as opposed to the pharmaceutical way of view, viewing things of the checklist type of thing, right? 

You have to do this, this, that, this is how we atone for these [01:38:00] sins. And that was so ingrained in Jewish culture. Jesus is saying, you're missing. This new covenant, this new idea that I'm bringing to the old covenant of, it's not about going to the priest and absolving your, your sins. 

I'm coming to take care of all that. And so the new paradigm is gonna be this idea of I'm interested in who you are as an internal person, and that flowing out as opposed to the checklist mentality that was a part of the Jewish culture. 

David: And it goes back to that idea then of, you know, the sheep were saying, master, when did we do this for you? So it's like that was the true test of who they were that was a natural outflow of their transformation as opposed to the person who's saying, I'm gonna try and do good, so God will be pleased with me. Does that make sense?  

JR: No. Yeah, it does. 

David: Yeah, and I, again, we'd have to flesh that out a bit more and we're running outta time. But yeah, I like that idea. The person who's transformed, their internal heart is in [01:39:00] alignment with their external walk, and they're not even aware of this idea of, I'm trying to do good as a show or to impress God. It's just who I am. 

JR: Yeah. 

David: Right? 

JR: Yeah. That, that's a key part of this parable. It's almost like, and they don't even recognize that they're in this disguise type of thinking, you know, 

David: Yeah. 

JR: 'Cause that's, that's another, because mythic archetype, you know, the king in disguise, right? The ruler appears as a beggar, 

David: That's, 

JR: To test his people. 

Right? You know? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: And those who honor the lonely, honor the king, and those who dismiss the lowly reject him. And so it's, really kind of this mythic, it pulls from the mythic, you know? And so it kind of carries that ancient pattern to its ultimate scale, right? Except here, the disguise is permanent, right? 

Christ remains vulnerable. He remains present, but he remains vulnerable to the people that he's talking to at least. Okay, so we come to the end of this parable and we have this problematic [01:40:00] part, right, that kind of modern ears don't like to hear, and that is the idea of this eternal punishment, eternal life, right? This finality, That, that we don't like to hear. 

how do you think we should view those final lines? Because again, I think this is a little bit more clear than the idea being cast into the outer darkness because that really could, we kind of touched on that, man. it could mean a few different things and maybe it's something that we create ourselves, but this is a lot more clear, this is a lot more kind of a hard line in the sand, of eternal punishment. 

David: Yeah. And we, we talked about, I don't know whether to open this can of worms, but we might as it's open now. So, alright, so here is my initial thought, like after reading all these parables of Jesus and we're wrapping up the series, Jesus, several, several places talks about those who don't get it are going to be cast into outer darkness, right? There's going to be this separation, there's going to be a time of judgement [01:41:00] and, you know, sheep on the right, goats on the left. We didn't even talk about the significance of the right and the left, but that's there too, right?  

JR: Oh yeah, sure. 

David: here's the thing, and maybe this is a longer conversation, but maybe this will be a long episode, but I don't see how you can hold to a position of universalism, which is popular right now.  

JR: Right. 

David: My question I guess is what do you do with all these that hint at a defining moment where judgment will take place and a separation will take place? Right. 

JR: Right, 

David: I don't know, I have my thoughts, but I think maybe it's a question that has been raised through all these that people are going, well, what do you think? 

You know, so, I guess I'm left with the idea of then, like, I don't know what you do with all these parables then if you're just gonna dismiss it all and say, well, God is a God of love, and everyone will be saved. And again, there's a lot of people talking about it right now. There was a, popular book last year I think maybe it was even called, That All Should Be Saved. I'll [01:42:00] butcher the guy's name, but that's been popular. I heard another Protestant, pretty well-known Protestant preacher recently say that this idea of hell is nonsense and it's really hurt Christianity. But then what do you do with all this? 

JR: It's not good for the brand. Right? 

David: it's not. 

JR: Well, I mean, well look, what's clearer in these parables is that if you wanna talk about universalism, what's universal is that we all get the invitation. there's your universalism, but what is also impossible to get around is the idea that not everybody is going to be a part of the feast. 

Not everybody is going to see the light, so to speak. I've always thought that was a real problematic, it's sort of a whitewashing thin, politically correct view of Christianity. It really is. I think I joked around and said, it's not good for our brand. 

It really is somebody saying, man, this is a tough one. This is a tough one. Why don't we just shape it into something that's more 2020? You know what I mean? And, yeah. Woe into the person that [01:43:00] does that. Right? That changes the, the scriptures just a little bit to adjust to your modern understanding and your modern framing. 

It's like, yeah, stay away from that. God's pretty clear about avoiding that type of thinking, 

David: Yeah. I don't know. I've come, the older I get, I guess the more I, I say I don't know what judgment looks like, right? And I'm certainly not going to be the final judge of someone's soul. That's for God. And I do think a lot of these teachings teach that in God's kingdom, we may be surprised at who is in and who is out. 

That's definitely all through here. But there's definitely, I don't know, I don't know what judgment looks like. I know how the Bible describes it, and I know that we try to soften it, but there's definitely a, what you can say. You don't wanna be the person who has recognized the invitation and you have rejected it. And, okay, so 

JR: Right. 

David: I guess here's the way to sum it up. Maybe the easiest way, if you hold the universalism, I don't see how that's [01:44:00] a practical way to live. 

JR: Yeah, it's, it's, a feel good short term idea, but again, it doesn't scale well. I mean, you really don't have to look at any depth at all before that all falls apart. I mean, you, you just throw out half of the Bible if, if you're doing that And yeah, and I, and I'm with you. I, I'm, look, I'm okay. 

If you wanna question whether or not hell is devils and pitchforks and, fire, just like I, I'm okay with the rethinking the idea of heaven may not be, you know, the literal streets of gold and that we all have our own actual modern looking palace that we live in. You know what I mean? That's a surface interpretation, but I don't see how you can get away from the imagery that they're trying to paint. 

And so there's definitely no doubt that there's judgment. And if you ignore that, then I, I mean, you just ignore it all. You you're throwing the baby out with the bath water. And again, I have no problem kind of, envisioning hell as something [01:45:00] different than what the modern cartoons, you know, the modern Bugs Bunny cartoon show, show it as. That's fine, but yeah, I don't see how you can get past the judgment, the finality of it. 

the point that is absolutely unable to come back from. I don't see how you get around that type of language, that type of thinking. 

David: Yeah. 

JR: don't know. It's just, It's the easy path as opposed to the hard path. 

And I mean, this is a hard reality the Bible talks about. 

David: And there's definitely I think we can just kind of wrap it up by saying, these parables, there is definitely a call to live as if there is a judgment, And you are going to be accountable. 

Now what that looks like, you know, we can, we can agree, we can disagree, it, I don't see a practical way to live, to go, yeah, everyone's in. 

Don't worry about it. and and I'm sure someone who holds to a universalist stance would say, well, there's a lot more to it than that, and that's fine. And I kind of 

JR: Yeah. Yeah. We may be straw manning a little bit, but 

David: I kind of 

JR: No, the, everybody gets a trophy. 

David: But, but [01:46:00] yeah. But yeah, I don't see it as a practical way to move forward, and I don't see Jesus calling that as a practical way to move forward. God can do whatever he wants. Right. But I, I'm just looking at, we're looking at the parables of Jesus and where it leads us. And I guess maybe that's my final point on the whole idea of, you know, well, what do you do then with all this idea of judgment and separation? I think you've gotta, at the very least, live like that's true. And act accordingly. 

JR: Yeah. Well, this final parable, especially sort of, it's very clear that every act toward the least is a rehearsal for the final encounter. Right? Well, what is that final encounter? You know what I mean? Like, you don't meet Christ for the first time at judgment. You've been meeting him in fragments your entire life. 

And so this final scene that they're talking about, it's, well, it's Revelation, right? And many people are gonna be surprised. But yeah, that final encounter, what is that if not judgment, [01:47:00] what is it? I, that's what I, that's what I guess I'd want to ask the universalist. 

David: Yeah, and, and you could say it's, it happens at death, like that's part of it. But then there's also a life beyond death and, but what I like about that, and even if it sounds harsh and it doesn't matter, you can disagree with me, but what I like about it too is Jesus's parables are filled with warnings the misuse of that too. Say, well, you're going to hell. I've got my act together, you know, 

JR: Right, 

David: Jesus is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's go back to some of these parables: you think you're in. That's a dangerous position to hold too. 

JR: Right. 

David: You know? 

JR: Right. no, I, I agree. And so, you know, when you see Christ talking, you understand that, we've said this before, you understand Christ as the logos is embodying the ultimate pattern of reality. Right. and so again, for to, for this final, for final parable, responding to the vulnerable is alignment with the deepest structure of [01:48:00] being and ignoring them is misalignment. 

And so. 

David: Yeah,  

JR: Misalignment fractures. That's the sand. it's the fractured idea, you know, into a a million different ideas, which, is actually a perfect description of universalism. You know what I mean? That all these tiny pieces of sand, they're all just as valid. And Jesus is saying, no, no, don't try to build your life on that. 

You know what I mean? 

David: Yeah. 

JR: You need a cohesive idea. You know what I mean? 

David: Yeah, that's a good point. It brings it kind of full circle, it's not a cohesive idea that incorporates everything. It basically is just a bunch of fragments. And again, build your life on the sand at your own risk. Jesus is like, good luck with that. It ain't gonna work, right? 

JR: Exactly. So yes, we definitely opened up a can of worms. Uh, maybe this is, maybe this is better to be, uh, on the message boards or something like that, that we can actually go back and forth. 'cause I'm sure we're not given a charitable interpretation to a universalist. I would love to have a universalist respond and sort of say, [01:49:00] yeah, we're, we're straw manning it, and here's actually what we believe. 

But yeah, that's what the, that's what, uh, that think you said it last time, YouTube. YouTube is probably the best place to have those conversations. So yeah, pick it up on YouTube, man. I, I, I would love to discuss it. And in fairness, we're not here to browbeat or to fit everyone into our exact way of thinking. 

This is really a conversational thing. And so, yeah, I'd, love to pick up the conversation there. 

David: Yeah, and this wraps up our series on the parables. And I feel like we just could have kept talking here, but our listeners are probably going, guys wrap it up. Our next series then is about the minor prophets. But you hear that and go, oh, there's a snoozer, okay. 

JR: that's not sexy. 

David: I was at a coffee shop today studying Joel and I'm excited about this next series. I think we're gonna do some cool things with it. And so I would say if it sounds boring to you, like man, give it a chance and see where we go with it here. 

JR: Yeah. We'll try to make it [01:50:00] interesting. You talk about seeing patterns or you talk about fractal thinking. Yeah. The minor prophets are really a really good place to kind of deepen your sea legs. If the parables helped you think a little bit different, our episodes on the parables then yeah, we'll go a little bit deeper in the profits and I think, I think a lot of this is really gonna take shape in the way we're applying this way of thinking, I think it can really take shape in the minor prophets. 

David: Yeah, yep. We'll see you next episode then. 

Okay.  

JR: Alright. Have a good one.