Neurodivergent Mates

Workplace Psychological Safety and Neurodiversity - Nikki Searby

• Will Wheeler • Season 3 • Episode 62

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In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we sit down with Nikki Searby to explore the critical intersection of psychological safety and neurodiversity in the workplace. Nikki shares valuable insights on how creating a safe, inclusive environment can empower neurodivergent employees to thrive. 

For those interested in connecting with Nikki Searby and following her journey, stay tuned till the end for more details! 

Questions

  • Tell us a bit about yourself?

  • Tell us a bit about your work?

  • Can you explain what psychological safety means in the context of the workplace?

  • What are some signs that a workplace may not be psychologically safe for neurodivergent individuals?  

  • How does psychological safety particularly impact neurodivergent employees?

  • How can managers foster a sense of psychological safety for neurodivergent employees?  

  • What advice would you give to neurodivergent employees who are struggling to feel safe in their current work environment? 

  • For those interested in what you are doing, where can they connect with you?


All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.

#Neurodiversity #PsychologicalSafety #InclusiveWorkplace #Neuroinclusion #WorkplaceCulture #Podcast #NeurodivergentMates #NikkiSearby

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Speaker 1:

You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with Nikki Searby. Did I pronounce it right then, Searby?

Speaker 2:

to talk to us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1:

I nailed it first time and then when I'm on the spot, I stuff it up, but I got it. I the spot, I stuff it up, but I got it, I got it, I got it. So today, what we're going to be covering is workplace psychological safety and neurodiversity. Nikki, look, thank you so much for coming on. When we caught up, gee, six weeks ago or something, I don't know, something like that. It was just so cool to you know, get your perspective from, I suppose, a law point of view and speak about really what you're working towards, all of that type of stuff. And I was like, yeah, I've got to get you on, you know, because I think what you're working towards is so important and plays such a huge role. But before we do get stuck into it, I'll just do a little bit of housekeeping.

Speaker 1:

If we haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn. And if you haven't already done so, please go to wherever you check out your podcast, subscribe to our channel, rate us, do whatever, write great comments, because it helps with the algorithm. Also, too, if you haven't already done so, please check out all the work that we're doing at Neurodiversity Academy. You can check that out at neurodiversityacademycom. Actually got some really cool news with that. We actually have just released a new professional development course for vet professionals, so vocational education professionals there. So if that is you, please reach out and we'd love to get you onto the course. Got some really great stuff there as well.

Speaker 1:

Also, look, just a warning Some of the discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies and if you've got any questions during the live podcast which we're sitting in right now, just feel free to put those questions in the comments and you know, if they come through in time, we will be able to talk to them or we'll be able to answer them as part of the podcast. Nikki, are you ready to rock and roll, my friend?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Nice, nice, nice, nice. So so before we do start, you're up in brisbane, um, in indra pilly, and we're just talking about this before you got on like, if how? Sorry, actually I'm not going to even try to spell indra pilly, but it looks like indraly, right, yep. So so really good for um neurodivergent people. So whoever decided to spell it that way, um did a really awesome job. But anyway, let's get stuck into this. Let's start with um. Look, share a little bit with our audience a little bit about yourself. I think it'd be great for them to find out who you are.

Speaker 2:

Sure, well, as you mentioned, I'm a lawyer. I'm really just an adventurous big kid. I'm passionate about animal welfare and raising awareness for neurodiversity. I'm always getting into something. I'm always into some new activity saving earthworms, rescuing roadkill and dancing around to whatever music is playing in my head. I grew up in the Philippines. I came to Australia when I was 17, moved around a couple of places in Australia, went to boarding school in Victoria, then I went up to Darwin and now I'm in Brisbane. In terms of you know my ADHD, adhd background, I was diagnosed in 2006 and that's sort of you know where my journey started yeah, cool, cool.

Speaker 1:

Gee, you have moved around a bit from, so hang on. Where did you start from when you first came to Australia?

Speaker 2:

I went to boarding school in Geelong oh okay, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 1:

Is that Geelong Grammar? Yeah, yeah, okay, yep. Great Geelong Grammar. Are you a cat?

Speaker 2:

supporter. If I was an AFL supporter then, yes, I would be a cat supporter.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great, great, great.

Speaker 2:

And then all the way up to Darwin, Gee that would have been a bit of a culture shock. Right, it was a bit. It was you shock ride, it wasn't it it was. You know, I've gone from manila to melbourne, so I went from a tropical, hot, humid place to pretty freezing geelong and then back up to hot and humid in darwin, and every every sort of city has is quite different and different vibe yeah, it would have been a very big culture shock coming from Manila to Australia.

Speaker 1:

And I think as well, like I don't know, what was your perception of Australia before you come? Was it like Australia is a hot place? Did you think Australia is a hot place?

Speaker 2:

Well, I had visited Australia two or three times growing up.

Speaker 1:

My dad's Australian oh, okay, so you knew it pretty well then.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we'd sort of, you know, done summer holidays like our school holidays, you know two or three times when I was growing up. So I'd been to Australia a handful of times before I moved here.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's okay, that's okay. The reason why I ask is I meet some people from overseas and who have been to australia and they're like, oh my god, we we landed in melbourne in the middle of winter and I was like, oh, you know, I come from a country where it snows, it won't be cold. And they're like it was freezing, you know, and I'm like, yeah, australia can get pretty cold at times.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, melbourne's got a biting cold too yeah, and like just the change, the weather just changes. So so often down there, like with like four seasons in one day, and you know, for some of our listeners overseas as well, um, it does snow in australia, if you didn't know that, not like all over Australia, but up on the mountains and stuff like that. But you know what? I think it would be great if you shared with us a little bit about the work you're doing. I think when you first reached out to me and we sat down, it was just so, I suppose, enlightening enlightening, I think that's the word I'm trying to pronounce to sort of hear it from, I suppose, a legal background type of thing and what our rights and responsibilities can be, and especially from the safety aspect as well. So please share a little bit about what you do.

Speaker 2:

Sure, well, as you know, I sort of have a full-time job as well. So please share a little bit about what you do. Sure, well, as you know, I sort of have a full-time job as well, so in my legal capacity, but I, a couple of years ago, had, I just wasn't doing so well with my work and I, you know, was just struggling a lot. I knew I had ADHD because I'd been diagnosed quite a while ago, but I didn't understand just how much it actually affected me. When I was diagnosed there wasn't a lot of information yet and I was diagnosed at a time when girls weren't expected to have ADHD. They believe girls didn't get it. And also I was an adult. So you know, you're supposed to outgrow it if you do have it. That was the prevailing theory then.

Speaker 2:

So there wasn't a lot of information and I had the medication. It worked sometimes, or a lot of the time. I should say it worked maybe 75% of the time for me, but there would be times when it, you know, just didn't work at all and it was like I hadn't taken anything. Um, and then I went unmedicated for a few years because I kind of you know, just it was too hard to regulate myself within, like with the medication. Um, and then I I was actually doing well at work and was given promotion opportunities for this after you weren't medicated.

Speaker 1:

So you're doing pretty well at work and you weren't medicated anymore.

Speaker 2:

Just out of curiosity um well, so I was doing pretty well at work. I was taking medication on on an as needed basis, like it wasn't something I was taking regularly, and when my script ran out I didn't bother to refill it because I was taking the medicine so infrequently anyway. Unfortunately, what I now know is that was really bad timing in terms of development with ADHD and linked hormones and all of that. And then I went into a role that I thought I wanted and it was actually the wrong role for me. I didn't know that at the time either. So I just sort of had this perfect storm of being unmedicated, trying to do a role that wasn't suitable for me, and you know my challenges with having ADHD and my symptoms getting worse.

Speaker 2:

So then I wasn't doing well and, yeah, I was struggling with all of that. Well, and, yeah, struggling with all of that. And then I sort of tried to revisit actually I should backtrack thanks to social media and everyone sharing all their stories and symptoms and experiences, that kind of awakened my knowledge and perception to just how pervasive ADHD symptoms can be. So there were you know, there's so many symptoms that people were sharing and I'm watching these videos thinking I have that. I do that, all this stuff that I didn't associate with?

Speaker 1:

ADHD. Oh wow, even considering that you'd had it for so long. You had probably, so you were probably and I don't know if this is the word to use you were sold on like ADHD person is this? And then you were learning about all this other stuff thinking, oh my God, that's me as well. I didn't realize that was part of it, correct?

Speaker 2:

Exactly, that's exactly it. So then I you know I sort of revisited ADHD. There was a lot more information you know that I didn't find when I was first diagnosed. So I've basically been on a new journey of understanding ADHD and the symptoms and how it can affect us. And you know even things like I mentioned earlier. There were times when the medication wasn't working for me. I mentioned earlier, there were times when the medication wasn't working for me and I couldn't work out why. I thought maybe I was eating food that was, you know, negating it and that sort of thing. But the new research shows that it actually has to do with hormone levels and I think maybe that's why it didn't work for me those times that it didn't work.

Speaker 2:

So there's just so much more information now. There's so much more support now. That wasn't around at the time and so yeah, now that I know that and my experience with taking on a role that I thought I wanted but now know was really not suitable for me, me had I known that, maybe I wouldn't have gone for that role because I'm a safe, yeah, sorry go ahead well, I I think you're about to exactly say it I, I think you probably went through a lot of you know, you went for a role that you thought you could have done.

Speaker 1:

Uh, it didn't work out. And then we know how, I suppose, sensitive to rejection a lot of ADHDers are. So I'm assuming, and you know, I think, when something like that happens, you almost doubt yourself. You start to think, oh, I'll never be able to do this or I'll never be that correct.

Speaker 2:

That's exactly right. Yeah, and I guess, yeah, once I came out of once the clouds from all of that negative self-talk and you know the I guess, the anxiety and depression that followed my non-performance, I realised that you know, if I had known, maybe I wouldn't have gone through that difficult period and maybe I can help someone else by spreading the word, spreading awareness, so that they can avoid what I went through or at least, you know, learn from my experience, maybe help them through theirs. And from there it all just sort of you know, discussing it with people chatting to friends and that sort of thing, you know, recognized or came to my attention that there was this need to consider it and apply it in the workspace, particularly given the legislation changes with workplace health and safety requirements.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, interesting, interesting. Interesting Because I think when and I think as well, especially when we look at it from a legal standpoint a lot of neurodivergent people don't know where they stand, a lot of the time they don't know what to do, or they may think that, oh, this has happened, I felt like this, but maybe that was my fault, not the actual person who was creating that harm, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yes. So yeah, there's a huge education piece to be had across the board. You know, we're still learning about symptoms and how to manage them. About symptoms and how to manage them, where you know people are getting diagnosed and recognizing how much it affects them, which was basically my experience. But there's also a big education piece around the employment side of things. You know, most employers want to have happy staff and support their staff, but if they don't know, then they don't know what they don't know and you know there's all of that, that comes into play.

Speaker 1:

It's almost like in the education space. I think that what I see is that some education providers they want to help, but unless you've got the right understanding and knowledge to be able to know what to do, you could be doing a lot more damage than good, if that makes sense yeah, it does yeah totally, you know, I think. Moving on from that, can you explain what psychological safety means in the context of the workplace?

Speaker 2:

Sure, well, sorry. In the context of a workspace, psychological safety refers to the environment where an employee can feel comfortable being themselves, where they can feel comfortable taking risks or, you know, acting up in a higher role, speaking up when they see something that they don't agree with, or even where they feel they can make an improvement somewhere, having the confidence to speak up about that without feeling like they're going to be put down or reprimanded. You know, just being able to speak up without the fear of the negative consequences.

Speaker 1:

Or having to tiptoe around people.

Speaker 2:

Like, oh my.

Speaker 1:

God, the manager's here today. I really hope they're in a good mood because I don't want to have to, you know, because I think and you know, I had an experience not long ago where I was dealing with some person and this person was very hot and cold. You just couldn't and I've dealt with a few people like that through my career, where you just don't know how they're going to be on certain dates and it's like and I think, I think you know, and I'm assuming you would probably be the same if you have a certain bad experience that could wreck your week or it could even wreck your career at that actual workplace well, yeah, the anxiety that that would that could induce.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's almost better when you know what to expect. If you have a difficult person that you have to work with I mean, no one wants to work with them, but at least if you know what to expect, then you can, you know, manage accordingly. But if they're hot and cold, it's hard for you to. Well, how do you approach it? How do you?

Speaker 1:

approach it? How do you? You know, and I think a big thing about it is, it's like that's not our fault. Do you know what I mean? Like if and I think this is where, and I don't know, maybe I'm wrong Would you say that this day and age, it's we're seeing more workplace because of, like you know? So, for example, let's take Ellen DeGeneres, for example right, okay, so on TV she's like was like this, like this? Hey, look at me, I'm doing everything for everyone. I am just such a nice person, but behind the scenes she was just big monster type of thing. Right now, you know, I think this day and age, it doesn't matter who you are, that type of behavior just isn't acceptable. Completely agree, you know, and you know, if we're work, and I think I, when I do come across people like that or workplaces like that, I'm just like, oh my god, these people are so far behind the times that it just blows my mind.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is quite concerning, isn't it, when you think about it. We know that that existed once upon a time, but it is confronting when you come across it in this day and age.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, totally, and I think with social media as well is that social media can paint a picture of something that actually isn't correct, if that makes sense. Dealt with an organization that was everything that we're talking about in a negative aspect, but then on social media, you're seeing all this, like, hey, look at us, we're this and that, and you really want to get on social media and go no, you're not. You know, but you feel like you're lowering yourself to their standards and it's just so. It just blows my mind sometimes that we just can't I don't even know how to word it, but it's still going on and it's like we need to. You know, and I think this is where, especially when you and I spoke ages ago, it's like well, what's the process we need to?

Speaker 1:

You know, and I think this is where, especially when you and I spoke um ages ago, it's like, well, what's the, what's the process we need to take, what needs to happen in this aspect? You know, it feels like, um, certain things, um, uh, we just don't know what's going on, you know. But to tell you the truth, I think that's where we can probably move on to the next question there, because I think this would sort of slide into it. Well, what are actual some signs that a workplace may not be psychologically safe for neurodivergent individuals?

Speaker 2:

So probably a big thing is you pick it up in conversations, you'll feel it from. You know the way a manager might speak about certain topics If there's a dismissive attitude towards you. Know issues like or sorry, not issues, but like conversations around say neurodiversity, you know if people are dismissive about it. If you hear comments like everyone has ADHD today, these days, those sorts of comments, you can sort of see how that is probably not the most open-minded or inclusive environment in itself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and would you also say? For example, I was dealing with an organisation a while back and the people I was consulting with they would tell me how they would hear the manager in, like the office abusing people and all of this type of stuff. You know what I mean? And I think this is where our actions speak louder than words, if that makes sense. Well, obviously there were words going on.

Speaker 1:

But this person probably doesn't realise that, okay, they're abusing someone, that has nothing to do with everyone else sitting in the office, but it actually has a lot to do with everyone else sitting in the office because, especially neurodivergent people, they're starting to go. Oh my God, I think that's going to be me shortly, you know. Or the other managers in the office think I need to be like that because my manager whatever general managers what are the general managers like that as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. Or you know you have the concerns about, like, if you're talking someone who is at management level, then you have people that either are their peers or you know a level down, feeling like they can't do anything about it. That goes to the heart of a, you know, psychologically safe workplace. If you can't feel, if you don't feel like you can speak up about that behavior, that's sort of indicative that it's not a psychologically safe workspace.

Speaker 1:

Do you know what else as well? I reckon, like, if the leaders in the company and like, actually it's hard to explain because, the way I look at, lead not everyone's a leader. So I don't describe, say the management as a leader, right, sure, that's just my perspective. So I don't describe, say the management as a leader, right, that's just my perspective. I believe that you need to earn certain things to be a leader and all of that type of stuff, right. And I remember I was working in a workplace one time and I would go in every day or whatever, and I would always make sure I said hello to all the managers. Reason being the managers never said hello to to me ever, but I always went out of my way to say hello and and that was where I was. Like there, this place is toxic, do you know what I?

Speaker 1:

mean, because it's those little things that people pick up on.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. If you've got a manager that goes out of their way to say hi to staff, it is just a generally happier. It starts the day well. You feel that connection.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. But um, you know, um, I'd say, moving on from that, like how does psychological, how does psychological safety particular impact?

Speaker 2:

neurodivergent employees oh, that's a that's a big question, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

um well, we've sort of said a few little things yeah what is it? You know, I think it would be interesting. If you want to share, it is maybe share like what you were going through that time, um, when you were struggling at work and all of that yeah, sure, well, actually, my, my sort of experience within the workplace was a more positive one, um, unlike a lot of other stories I've heard.

Speaker 2:

So for me when I was struggling, it was more of a personal um stress that I was putting on myself because I knew I wasn't performing. I was unhappy with myself but I couldn't bring myself to do the work that all the challenges that come with um, you know, executive function issues and and time management and those sorts of challenges that people with ADHD have. But when I was really struggling, my boss was actually awesome about it came up to me and said look, I see you're struggling. How can we support you?

Speaker 2:

Which was the best thing you could say, in my opinion one of the best things you could say to someone who was struggling, rather than saying you're not performing, you need you to perform. You know, adding that extra layer of stress which a lot of people would do, because a manager's job is to have performing. You know meeting performance targets and so you can't. You know, I wouldn't hold it. I wouldn't have held it against my my boss if he had approached it that way, but he actually approached it the best way possible, which was asking me how I could be supported. Unfortunately and this goes back to me revisiting my ADHD I didn't know what I needed, so I dug myself into a bigger hole because I kept saying I know I'm fine, I'll, I just need a couple of days to get back on top.

Speaker 1:

And and of course, I didn't get back and you know what I think that's such an interesting point because you know, and I think this is where neurodiversity training. Sorry, what's that noise Is there like? Is that thunder?

Speaker 2:

That's thunder.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, when are?

Speaker 2:

you Into what?

Speaker 1:

Into what? What are you near Are? You near a window or something yeah near a window.

Speaker 2:

I've got the board down behind me. But it's. It's that loud. My screen actually flickered, just the oh my god that was.

Speaker 1:

I thought it was like heavy breathing or something like that. Oh my god well, that's that's. That's um typical, uh, brisbane afternoon weather right, crazy, crazy, crazy. Oh well, there you go, there you go um so I just want to keep you entertained.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, what?

Speaker 1:

was I saying before I um what was, what were we talking?

Speaker 2:

about just um.

Speaker 1:

So education and awareness yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is where I I'm a big believer in this type of, you know, some basic neurodiversity training is better than no neurodiversity training at all. So when an employee does come and says, hey look, I've got a problem, hopefully the manager is able to then go oh my God, yeah, let's put this into place, or this is what we need to do, um, you know. But with that being said, I've actually worked with people before who we have put, we've done training with them. I knew that their personality to like. I knew they didn't want anything to do with neurodiversity, because they told me straight out um, but I covered certain things like rsd, all of that type of thing, because I knew they were going to be a big problem, right, um, but they completely ignored the advice that I had given them, type of thing, you know.

Speaker 2:

So they were just just didn't get it well, they were just continuing to like.

Speaker 1:

We spoke about acting in a manner that would make other people look at them like oh my God, that's going to be me shortly. I'm going to quit. You know what, with these leaders around, or these management, this is never going to happen here, you know, I just find that with some workplaces. You know, what would your thoughts be from a legal standpoint on that then?

Speaker 2:

Well, so that's, I suppose, where we are slowly heading in the right direction. With the developments to workplace health and safety regulations expanding to include not just physical health and safety, but also psychological, psychosocial health and safety, businesses are now required to add like consider psychological safety under any of their workplace health and safety policies and programs. So we are moving in that right direction, but it's just going to take time. It's going to take time to get the message out. It's going to take time for people to shift their thinking. It's going to take time for processes and frameworks to be put in place and rolled out. Still didn't embrace it or take it into consideration when they actually have, you know, penalties and risk on them. So yeah.

Speaker 1:

so actually an interesting point, right? So if a workplace or someone, a manager at a workplace was to do some training, for example, but then you know they filled it out, they ticked the things and got it all correct or whatever, right, but then continued to then act in a way that was putting someone's psychological safety in danger if that's the right words Could that person? Then could that be like a sackable offence or what could happen in that case there? Because like you're doing what you're breaking what you've been taught, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well. So I suppose it's not a straightforward answer, but you know, just as you would approach a physical workplace injury, you would follow the same sort of principles where you would first look at what policies and procedures are in place, if there are, if they do have some in place, you know, are they adequate? And if they weren't followed, why weren't they followed? You would sort of look, go down that path of investigating it for one of a better expression and then consider how severe the breach is.

Speaker 2:

So you take all that sort of all those factors into consideration. Um, but yeah, so it's. It's definitely not, uh, not something to be taken lightly.

Speaker 1:

You'd have all the penalties and risks and obligations for ensuring a safe workplace but let's say we've got um the it's a neurodivergent person that has made a complaint about someone, right, um, would you know, hr, and all of that then have to do like their, um, what do you call it? Um investigation, all of that, um, you know, would there need to be a different route that's now in place, compared to say what a neurotypical person would be going through in that aspect? Do you know, are they taking that into place? Do they know about it? You know, because the whole investigation part that could just be as stressful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly you know, and it feels like they wouldn't even know what they're doing as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. That's a great point and, yes, it is something that also needs to be taken into consideration. Whatever processes and procedures you have a business is implementing, it really needs to be across the board that it takes into consideration neurodivergent communication and needs. Just as a practical example, let's say you have a non-performing staff member who is neurodivergent. They're non-performing because they're struggling with certain conditions, for example, and if you could provide them with workplace accommodations, then perhaps they, you know, wouldn't be falling behind. But then, if you're not aware of that, you're probably going to treat that staff member as a non-performing employee and put them through a performance management program when they probably didn't need to be on that, if they could have needs addressed, if there was communication there, if they felt that they could talk to the company, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's actually interesting. You say that because I remember a few years ago, like I was at like a pitch night for a lot of tech companies and, like I don't know, there's always heaps of HR tech companies out there or trying to start. I've never seen so many HR tech projects in my life. But I remember I was speaking to one of these people who was part of this organisation, who was creating some app or some program or something and think, um you, it was gonna show like peaks in performance and lows in performance and all of that. And I said they said, oh, you know, if the person goes below this, they'd be able you know, we'd be able to go. Okay, we need to step in here, and all of that. And I I was like, well, hang on, with a neurodivergent person, you could have that.

Speaker 2:

You would have those bits and drops.

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah yeah, exactly, and that may not mean that they're not performing. Maybe, you know, and, like we spoke about before, maybe there's certain what's the word I'm looking for, like, um, adjustments in place or supports in place for them to be able to, to, to reach that. So if we're just basing it based on oh my god, there's, they're low, they're low here. We need to now step in, instead of like going, hey, now you need to pick up the pace or whatever, instead of implementing these other things um, and you've just stress and anxiety and they're unraveling, mentally unraveling, because they're so, you know, stressed about it well, it was interesting when I spoke to this person, because they're like oh, we never thought about it like that and I said well yeah, yeah, you know, because they're building it based on whatever you know.

Speaker 1:

They're probably not thinking oh wow, we've got different types of brains in our, or different types of people in our workforce. Is our stuff matching those people's? I suppose peak performance and weaknesses and stuff?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, that's, that's really.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, just that's quite boggled mind boggling that well, to tell you the truth, I had had some wines at that point, so I was getting into some, like I was getting into some pretty big well, not stuck into them. I was having some good conversations with them and everything. But it was really opening up my mind and going oh you know, have you thought about this, because this could actually happen?

Speaker 2:

um, you know, uh well, you know, even even on that, like just a lot of these, um, you know, programs, platforms, policies, procedures, they're, they're really um, they're sort of written or geared for someone who is neurotypical in mind.

Speaker 2:

You, if you have a non-performing worker, who is a neurotypical worker, you would put them on a performance management plan. That performance management plan is written for someone who is neurotypical non-performing. If you put someone who is neurodivergent, who is non-performing, even if they if they, you know, let's say they deserve to be on a performance management plan, the performance management plan is usually not tailored to their needs either. So you're basically getting a double whammy. You've got someone who may or may not need to be on a performance management plan, but they're put on a performance management plan. That's not.

Speaker 1:

It's just not Right for them. So then you're adding a further layer of difficulty.

Speaker 2:

They're then being told they're, you know, a bad staff member. They're stressed, so they're not going to be able to satisfy like they're going to perform even worse well, do you know what right it's?

Speaker 1:

it's interesting that we're talking about performance management plans and everything right. So I remember a few years ago I was dealing with a corporate company actually up in brisbane and um, I won't name the company I'm getting into a lot of trouble, probably best not to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly when we're talking about legal stuff and everything. But you know, it was interesting because they reached out to me. They said, look, we've got this person here. They're not performing. You know, we've got them on a performance management plan, this, and that we want you to come in and coach them so they can get up to you know speed. And I was just like, okay, and the hardest thing was to get information about why the person was the way. They were okay, so the workplace were like thinking, oh, all we need is a coach to come in help this person get up to speed and then they will be right. Right, but what was and the what the problem was? And I knew it straight from the beginning. But they were like, no, no, no, we can't tell you that or whatever. So I just was going in there and I got to a point where I was just like talking with the guy going look, I'm just going to sit here for an hour and talk to you about the boxing and UFC and all of that, because I know you can do what you can do. It's just your workplace isn't adapting your environment to best help you.

Speaker 1:

Now, the person had a manager who hated them all right because they were different to all the rest of them. This manager was like you know, just like very, very much about themselves type of thing and you need to conform to do. You know what I mean. So there was no working with that. That manager had then turned a lot of the other team against this person and they were. They actually got to a point where they had a vote to vote the guy out of the business and it took a partner to step in and go hang on, hang on. This isn't right. And if it wasn't for that one partner giving me a call and saying look, this is what's going on, and he this partner opened up to me about everything. And I said and this partner opened up to me about everything, and I said that's your problem, right there, the manager is the problem?

Speaker 1:

I'm telling you right now if you change, I said, this person, I said they're not going to perform. When you've got people trying to vote them out, you're putting them on a management plan and everyone in their team hates them. Of course they're not going to. Anyone wouldn't perform under that right. I said what you got to understand is that if you get someone who can work in with this person and see, okay, we've got some great skills here, we just need to work in with this person, not not feeling that they, um, uh, can't be open with them, I said you're gonna see so much come out of this person. So what they ended up doing was changing this person to a different manager, and that was it.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean it's like you paid me they seriously paid me for six months to go in there and like all they had to do was go. What do you think the problem is, will? And I would have said it's the manager. We need to change the managers here. And that's what it was.

Speaker 2:

That's crazy, but that actually ties in with you know one of the challenges um people with neurodivergent conditions experience like they do.

Speaker 1:

there is a higher risk of experiencing bullying, and he just gave a very clear example of that and, and you know what, this is now where that person, that partner who gave me a call and said, look, I want to. He had nothing to do with like all this, he just stepped in for this guy. That's leadership. Do you know what I mean when I talk about leaders?

Speaker 2:

that's a leader right there, you know, and that's where really all of them in the world exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So when we've got these allies in companies and I think a big thing with it's so important you don't have to be neurodivergent to be an ally or even just having some understanding about it is so vital to be able to help these people who don't have the voice you know, and it took this person stepping in that really helped. It changes a person's life if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Well, it sounds like it was a great and happy you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it was sort of like, towards the end I was like dude, I'm just going to sit here and talk to you about the boxing because these idiots, your bosses, don't even want to talk to me about what they need to do. And we would have had it solved like that. But I think this actually ties in well for the next question how can managers foster a sense of psychological safety for neurodivergent employees?

Speaker 2:

um, well, I suppose the the first step or the biggest thing we need to, you know, have a manager consider is just open communication, um, you know, actually develop some empathy and understanding which can really only come from them having that open communication and getting educated and just costing their mind to the fact that there are people who are wired a bit differently. The way I explain how I've reconciled my adhd and how I don't quite fit in, or you know, in, in this world is it's I describe it as being left-handed in a right-handed world I am left-handed.

Speaker 1:

Actually I I am, I'm left-handed, but I'm actually I'm ambidextrous. Okay, so I have the best of both worlds, sort of, but like yeah you go.

Speaker 2:

Did you have to work to get there? No, it just happened, naturally.

Speaker 1:

It was just like my mum would be like hey, Will, do you realise that you're doing this? I'm like what, no, do you realize that you're doing this? I'm like what, no? Or like I would say, for example, I'd iron and I'd iron with both hands. I didn't realize that people only iron with one hand.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, so I actually came up with that. I reconciled it for myself because my dad's left-handed and his right hand isn't fully formed, like his fingers are sort of half developed. He was born that way, so he is left-handed. But I remember when I was younger he was telling me that when he was in school it was at a time when you were forced to write with your right hand and he was being forced to write with his right hand even when he didn't have a, you know, he didn't have full fingers. And so I said and how? And then he told me that eventually they allowed him to use his left hand and it was a lot easier for him.

Speaker 2:

And that kind of, I guess, is how I reconciled it for myself. That you know, if you're left-handed, being told you have to write with your right hand, you'll get there, you'll manage to do it. But your penmanship is never going to be as neat and tidy and clear as it would have been if you were right-handed and clear as it would have been if you were right-handed. You're exhausted from the extra effort of trying to write with your right hand when you're left-hand dominant and you have all that negative programming that comes from everyone telling you oh, your handwriting is really bad and you know you're writing too slow, and all the stuff that comes with that. So that's sort of how I came to understand my challenges, and so, yeah, hats off to dad for giving me the the way of the way to do.

Speaker 1:

You know what I've actually, I've actually met a lot of people who obviously a little bit older than myself, who, um, yeah, they were left-handed and their right hand. I'm like, oh, do you want to go back to left hand? They're like, I've just been doing it for so long now that I'm used to my right hand, you know. But honestly, like if I was to go you know what, tomorrow I'm going to start writing with my right hand no, I would never be. I think it's because I'm too old now writing with my right hand. No, I would never be. I think it's because I'm too old now too. You know, maybe if I had done it when I was younger, maybe, but I've tried to, like I wouldn't even know how to hold a pen properly. Like I don't know, I just, but who cares? Like I don't know, but like it's sort of straight, like this is sort of going a bit off topic, but like that's not like you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, it's sort of like it's just but it was actually a really good way that you described it actually but like it's so interesting when you do see people who are left-handed or whatever these days and it stands out, you're like, oh my God, yeah, yeah, you're just like me, you know. But when you're ambidextrous, that's a whole other thing altogether. Yeah, I didn't realise that, like that means you're using both sides of your brain. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, that you're using both sides of your brain or something, or I have no idea.

Speaker 2:

I think they've debunked that concept today there you go, there you go I think. Well, I think what they say is that, um, you're using your whole brain.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, I just know it just comes naturally to me, so that that's the main thing. But but, um, sorry, I don't know. I just know it just comes naturally to me, so that's the main thing. But sorry, I don't think we really answered the question, did we? How can managers foster a sense of psychological safety for neurodivergent employees?

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah. So we sort of got halfway through and then started chatting yeah that all good. It really comes down to education and training and just recognizing that people do operate a bit differently. Some people like the coffee black, Some people like the flat white. We're all a bit different. Recognizing that we operate a bit differently, that you know, being able to offer or provide reasonable workplace accommodations that might assist that employee. The information is out there now. It's available if we look for it. You know it's being developed, we're learning more being developed.

Speaker 1:

We're learning more.

Speaker 1:

It's actually interesting because I finished developing this course, um for vocational education, um professionals and I was adding in a whole bunch of stats and all of that and you could actually see where a lot of the diagnosis of, like anxiety and certain neurological conditions well, yeah, how they're they're rising. Right, and I actually said I'm like the reason why they're rising is that we're having a better understanding about what they actually are and people are getting diagnosed. All of that and those numbers are only going to grow, you know. So we do need to have things in place because, you know, if people don't, I think, speaking about it from the law perspective, this is where we can be looking at lawsuits, because it's discrimination, all of those types of things.

Speaker 1:

So, if workplaces keep putting it in the too hard basket, what they're going to find is that their competitors are going to start getting on top of this and they're going to fall behind.

Speaker 2:

Yes, well, even worse, if they keep putting it in the too hard basket, they'll have a staff member who actually experiences um, you know the negative effects of that ends up with a major issue. And then they have a workplace. You know, work cover claim against them, against the business, because they've allowed it to happen yeah, yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.

Speaker 1:

Now, what advice would you give to neurodivergent employees who are struggling to feel safe in their current work environment?

Speaker 2:

This is a really challenging question because at the moment I keep hearing a lot of really bad horror stories about experiences people have had when they've approached their managers, when they've, if they've been diagnosed, where they've disclosed their diagnosis, it's actually been detrimental to them, um. So yeah, it's a challenging one. I think that people would need to just really need to consider the benefit. Sorry, I should say they should consider. You know their situation and how a disclosure would benefit them. But I suppose the short answer to your question is there are support services out there. The short answer to your question is there are support services out there. You know we've got a few groups like the Black Dog Institute, lifeline, if they are struggling at that level, to that extent, but if they have someone within their workplace, like the partner you mentioned at that company.

Speaker 2:

If there is someone within the company that they could speak to and champion for them, yeah, that would obviously open the door for conversations. If they can have a meeting with their manager, explain you know what they're experiencing it really means you have that conversation.

Speaker 1:

Have you heard of like? Are they called ERGs, employee? What does that stand for? An ERG like an employee, something, group, responsibility group. So I think what it is is like diverse community of people come together and then they'll talk about certain issues that are going on which can then be implemented into the workplace. I think, like Microsoft do stuff. I think it's what it's called an ERG or something like that. Have you heard that term before?

Speaker 2:

I haven't heard that term. I was actually going to suggest that a staff member could look at if there are any employee assistance programs EAPs within.

Speaker 1:

But this is sort of different from an EAP, because an EAP is almost like a confidential type of thing.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that's an external support.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, where an ERG is almost like a committee getting together, going. Look, we need to start doing this. We need you know. Know, when we're doing interviews, for example, the neurodivergent people are really struggling because we're not doing this or whatever. Do you know what I mean? And and they actually invite not just neurodivergent people to the table.

Speaker 2:

Everyone can come to the table type of yeah, yeah, that that would be a great I'm actually gonna.

Speaker 1:

I'm actually, I really want to know what it, what it was. I was trying to think of um um e e r g um, meaning uh, hopefully that was what I was looking for. Hang on, meaning in corporate, here we go. Yeah, employee resource groups. So employee resource groups are voluntary Employee-led groups whose aim is to foster a diverse, inclusive workplace aligned with the organisation they serve. There you go, yes.

Speaker 2:

I've heard of. For example, I was at an event put on by one of the top-tier firms and they've actually organised a neurodiversity group within the company. So it's definitely a an evolving piece. I think we're just, I think it's just starting for us here in australia.

Speaker 1:

I think we've got a long way to go yeah, yeah, I, I, and I think as well, like some of the problems I've sort of found is that there are some programs that have happened within some organisations which don't actually align with what it is we're trying to work towards, that actually sometimes do more damage than good. But everyone sees that as like, oh my God, we're doing this, you know this, and that it's like well, hang on, hang on, we actually want this. It's not that you know, um, which can be, which can be quite difficult there, but look, we're getting to the end of the the show here, um, you know, thank you so much for coming on and having a chat with me, um, but where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?

Speaker 2:

Well, I've got a site. It's just a simple one-pager where people can contact me. It's adhdbrainstormcomau.

Speaker 1:

You know what? I know that you probably didn't have a storm going on outside there. You probably have music going on.

Speaker 2:

I knew that happened. Yeah, because of adhd brainstorm right every time I've told people that I, you know, that's the name I, I decide, I settled on everyone's. Oh my god, that's exactly, that's perfect.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly what goes on in my head because out of curiosity do you drive to work or do you catch the train?

Speaker 2:

Also, I usually drive, but at the moment I'm doing the Black Dog Institute's One Foot Forward Challenge, so I've been walking.

Speaker 1:

They're walking.

Speaker 2:

I've done a couple of days where I'll ride the bus in and then walk home and that sort of thing. Oh yeah, done a couple of days where I'll ride the bus in and then walk home and that sort of thing. Oh yeah, so I'm. I'm at 130 kilometers of my 150 kilometer commitment.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, can I ask right coming from Toowong and Indooroopilly is Ziggy the bag man still there? Yes, he's still there yes, ziggy the bag man, all right. So for those of you who don't know so, ziggy is a homeless man who lives in to wong um uh turinga, really turinga. Well, yeah, turinga up near the I used to see him up near the hungry jacks there, yep still there, oh okay.

Speaker 1:

okay now he's obviously someone who's got a lot of mental issues, all of that, and he collects and forwards a lot of bags and stuff like that, and he's actually quite a real famous person in the area, correct?

Speaker 2:

Yes, he has a lot of support in the community and so on some of the Facebook groups for the area people will comment saying you know, I reached out to Zinni today and brought him some food If anyone can bring him X, y, z, you know thing he might need.

Speaker 1:

So he's supported by the local community in that way, it's like he's sort of like just part of like that area. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

He's very famous yeah, I remember there was, before I moved, that, um, you know, there was some business that was trying to get rid of him and like get him to move on, and the local community actually said no and yeah, let him stay.

Speaker 1:

Power to the people, eh power to the people go, Go Ziggy right, Look. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for jumping on today. I hope you enjoy Thanks for having me. Yeah, no problem. No problem, I always love getting people on and having a chat, but no, thank you so much. And if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. My name's Will Wheeler and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Till next time.