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Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Neuro-inclusive People Leadership - Kate Hardiman
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we dive into the world of Neuro-inclusive People Leadership with our special guest, Kate Hardiman.
Join us as Kate shares her journey, the work she’s passionate about, and her insights on the value of inclusive leadership. Tune in to discover actionable strategies and where you can connect with Kate to learn more about her work.
Questions
- Tell us a bit about yourself
- Tell us a little bit about the work that you do
- What is inclusive leadership, and why does it matter today?
- Why should leaders consider neurodiversity?
- What basic steps help create a neuro-inclusive environment?
- How does neuro-inclusion benefit the employee lifecycle?
- What are the long-term benefits of inclusive leadership for organizations?
- Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
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#NeuroInclusiveLeadership #NeurodiversityAtWork #Neurodiversity #DiversityAndInclusion #InclusiveLeadership
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodiverger Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with special guest Kate Hardiman. Did I pronounce your last name correct?
Speaker 2:Pretty much Hardiman, hardiman.
Speaker 1:You know what? It's always Hardi. Yeah, I thought so and I was like, ah, because normally what I do, before we start I'll say to the person hey, how do you pronounce your name? But you and I have just been talking, so I'm sort of like, ah, crap.
Speaker 2:I forgot to ask. I've been called worse. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes two of us. That makes two of us. But look, thank you so much for coming For all of our listeners. I've still got a bit of a cold at the moment, so I apologize. I am on the good end of my cold, so hopefully, by the next time we come, I should be all ready to rock and roll. But today, what we're going to be covering is neuro-inclusive people leadership. So, kate, thank you so much for coming, but before we start, we might just do a little bit of housekeeping.
Speaker 1:So if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram, x Twitch, youtube and LinkedIn. And if you haven't already done so, please go to wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe to the Neurodivergent Mates podcast. Rate us, comment, do whatever you can to help with the algorithm. That would be awesome. Also, too, if you haven't already done so, go to Neurodiversity Academy and check out all the work we're doing there. Please subscribe to the website as well. We've got some really cool stuff coming out shortly. That would be really great if you wanted to check out Also, too. Just a bit of a warning some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a place for sharing experiences and strategies. And finally, if you've got any questions, please feel free to put any questions in the comments section. Wherever you're listening to us live on your social media platforms. Kate, you're ready to rock and roll, my friend?
Speaker 2:Ready as I'll ever be Will.
Speaker 1:You're born ready, right? I like to think so. Nice, nice, nice, nice. Well, look, let's start with a basic one. Tell us a little bit about yourself. You know you're telling me a little bit. You're originally from the country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, originally a country girl, country Victoria, so grew up doing all of the clichéd things that country kids do, you know running around paddocks all day, climbing hay sheds, getting over into the shearing shed with the shearers, you know, going to school on the bus through the countryside, did it?
Speaker 1:snow. Did it snow where you were, oh?
Speaker 2:occasionally, because it's always so cold up near Ballarat, so we did have the occasional snowy day up there and I didn't deal well with the cold. But this is pre-electric blankets when I was a kid so I had a hot water bottle and that was my world. My hot water bottle was my world.
Speaker 1:Did you have to go out and chop wood?
Speaker 2:I did. You know what I loved chopping wood? Because the boys would always get. I've got lots of brothers and sisters right so we would have chore lists and they would all get to do the fun stuff. I thought chopping wood was great so I did love it. I can wield an axe pretty well Will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Nice, nice, nice, nice. I'm just imagining you just out there chopping wood. But it is hard work chopping wood.
Speaker 2:It is. It is, but I did love it. I thought there was an element of precision and you know we had lots of chooks and I loved a lot of the outdoorsy jobs. I did.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed that. So it's just funny because, like my father, he grew up on a farm and I'm just trying to think I don't think it was Ballarat, I can't remember where he was, but it was in Victoria, there. And you know, growing up on a farm, you know he'd tell me a lot of stories. Like you know, you'd go out and shoot stuff for dinner and he'd have to go out and shoot rabbits and bring them home. Was that part of your lifestyle?
Speaker 2:Well, dad was actually a teacher, so we lived on farms, but Dad, luckily, luckily there were no guns in the house. But because we lived on farms, dad would walk in the door, he'd sometimes go off to the pub or he'd go to the neighbours or whatever, and he'd come home with like a pair of rabbits or something that someone had caught, and Mum would just say, right, I'm not doing this, you're in the kitchen. If you want to eat rabbit, you're going to skin them, you're going to do all of the things, you're going to cook them. There was that sort of living off the land thing as well, so we'd lived on sheep farms and, you know, had an abundant supply of fresh meat all the time and we had veggies and yeah, it was motorbikes and ride horses horses for me, I'm an absolute horse fan and I loved riding horses and I still can't get enough of riding horses.
Speaker 2:And then I got my motorbike licence, so I did both.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cool, cool, cool. Yeah. From what I've learnt from like country people and it's sort of interesting, right, because being a city person and I would class myself as a city person I didn't grow up in like the city but like I grew up in suburbia, which is pretty much the city and like my thought of living out in the country would be boring. Do you know what I mean? But from what I've learnt from meeting people from the country, it's actually not boring at all. There's lots of stuff to do.
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't think it was boring at the time. We always thought it was really cool actually. But then again we didn't know what it was like to live in a city and then, as I said to you before we went live, I just couldn't wait to bolt from the country to the city to go to university, because I was just curious about what lay beyond. You know the country and I just started to want to get into the world a bit more.
Speaker 1:So you always want what you have. Yeah, and what was? It's almost like when you move overseas. What was the biggest like, I suppose, shock if it was a shock from when you moved from the country into the city out of curiosity.
Speaker 2:I just think to me it was the crime and the density of people and graffiti and it was so edgy and people just felt less innocent. You know, we always used to leave our houses unlocked, like no one used to lock their homes in the in the country when I grew up. So it's just all of a sudden you are getting a bit paranoid, that you might be being a little bit naive about about things, and you sort of had to build this awareness of you know, not just being so naive and looking out for yourself. So I think it was more the terrifying stories that my parents would tell me about being in the city and nothing bad happened.
Speaker 1:I remember I had a friend who had moved from, say, country to Womba, so up Brisbane way into Brisbane City, and you know, I'd say country people are quite friendly because it's a very small community, everyone probably knows each other, all of that type of stuff. And he said when he first moved to like Brisbane he'd go for a walk through the street and he'd see people and be like, hey mate, how's it going? And he was blown away that no one would sort of look at him like what the hell is your problem?
Speaker 2:They'd look at you all weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Definitely not as approachable and people would think you were being overly friendly and that they needed to be wary of you. Like, what is this person's intention by being so nice?
Speaker 1:You could probably get like if you're a guy or a girl, I suppose you'd probably be like beat up if you said hello to the wrong person. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think over time you learn the hard way. You learn like you're not getting the response that you think you would otherwise get in Beaufort or Ballarat, where I grew up. You know up that way. So, maybe I'll just kind of dial it down a little bit.
Speaker 1:People seem to be yeah, actually, I think my father came from Waurn Ponds.
Speaker 2:Waurn Ponds is just part of Geelong now, is that?
Speaker 1:part of Geelong, Maybe I don't know. I've just heard of. He has told me so many because he's told me about Ballarat. He's told me about like Colac. Maybe he was somewhere up that way, Because Colac's a bit further, correct Colac is a bit further. Yeah, yeah because maybe he came from there. I can't remember.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to sit down with Dan and ask him. You're going to have to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, true, true, I'll find out what's going on, but we really should move on, because we are here to talk about neuro-inclusive people in leadership. But look, tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing, because I think it would be great for all of our listeners to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I might start just kind of go back a bit because I wanted to give everyone sort of an idea on how I came to be doing what I'm doing, so being in the inclusive leadership space.
Speaker 2:So I think it started a pretty long time ago and when I think about it, I think it comes down to a mix of personal and professional experiences.
Speaker 2:So I think I mentioned I grew up in a very big family and my dad was one of eight and my mum was one of seven, so there were literally millions of aunts and uncles and cousins, and I'm also one of eight siblings.
Speaker 2:So it's fair to say, will, that I was interacting with a lot of humans when I was growing up and although I didn't really recognise all of the neurodivergence that was there at the time, I knew that there was some because I knew growing up that my dad's youngest brother and sister were what was called at the time severely autistic, and back then no one was talking about or even recognising ADHD or OCD or dyslexia or dyspraxia not in my family anyway, because we just didn't have the awareness or the language we do now. So I just thought that, you know, people are just themselves. People thinking and doing things differently was just normal to me, so it wasn't until I was in my early 20s, when I started working in traditional office environments, that I noticed how much pressure there was to kind of fit in, so to conform and and act and be a certain way and behave a certain way.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, there were particular ways that people wanted you to do things or express yourself or introduce yourself, and that felt like a really narrow norm, um, and I really struggled with that, and I saw a lot of other people that I worked with in different jobs struggle with that too, over the years. So flash forward to 2020 and the dreaded COVID right, I was working as head of development at a not-for-profit and I was managing 14 people and that just shone such a light on how big an impact the workplace can have on someone's productivity and their success at work. And when I say workplace, I mean you know the physical environment, but also people like your managers. So, while you know, some of my team struggled with working at home 100% because of the isolation you know, particularly the people that were living on their own. Others just thrived and I could just see that they had more energy and they were pumping out more high-quality work and they were so much more efficient and it was amazing to me. And then the penny dropped and I thought these people are thriving because their environment at home was created specifically to be just the way they liked it, so they had ultimate control over the lighting and the temperature and the noise, and they didn't have to commute anymore, and they were getting more sleep and rest and they were dressed more comfortably. Do you remember like I don't know about you, but I was in my boots and my trackies during that time? Um, and overall, these people were just presenting as less stressed, and all of that in my mind was coming together to it was all helping them be more productive.
Speaker 2:And what happened in that two years was that we smashed our fundraising targets two years in a row over that COVID time in an environment or a situation that we hadn't been in before, and it just became really obvious to me that when you make an environment more flexible, you're going to set people up to be more successful and everyone's going to win. So, and then I had, not long after that, two of my siblings get their formal diagnosis as neurodivergent and I thought, wow, okay, I need to look at this for myself, particularly when I learned that more than 80% of neurodivergence is genetic. And then things just started making so much more sense. So, long story short. I started Unify 360 because I realized that people, and particularly organizations, just need more support to be places where everyone feels like they belong and they're valued. And this whole idea of you know not in spite of your difference, but because of your difference you want to be valued for the difference that you can bring. So that's kind of what started you know the journey that you're on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a lifelong kind of roadmap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting how it works. I think that, you know, we've all experienced, you know, the thing. I think what it is is just the lack of understanding. You know, people don't realise that, hey look, will's going to perform so much better when he's in this environment.
Speaker 1:I remember I was working in a workplace and there was this woman who would just play music all day long like the radio out loud in the office. And I just remember sitting there thinking I just can't concentrate, and if I had said, look, can you turn that down, I would have been the worst person in the world, you know. So it's real. And I look back at it now and I'm like, yeah, no wonder I got nothing done because I had this distraction there. I was in this open office and you know it was just so. I suppose, well, it makes sense, because I didn't even know I was ADHD at that point. But now it's like, oh my God, now I can see why I really struggled with that. But you know what? Now I can see why I really struggled with that.
Speaker 1:But you know what, moving on from that, you know, I think, a big thing, especially with what we're talking about here today, why is inclusive leadership. Sorry, what is inclusive leadership and why does it matter? Now, I will just sort of go on from that. I think from what I've learnt is that there is a difference between a leader and a manager. Do you know what I mean? So like I'm interested to see what you've got to share about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, there's sort of two forms of leadership. There's that really traditional form of leadership and that traditional form of leadership. It really focuses on, you know, setting goals, we're driving for results and we're, you know, in a fairly standardised kind of way, whereas it's not very people focused, it's not very it doesn't put the person at the centre of that.
Speaker 1:I'd almost call them a manager.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, you know I wouldn't even call that leadership.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, exactly. And so whereas we look at inclusive leadership and that takes a big step beyond traditional leadership because it's bringing in elements of empathy, awareness and it's being really I like the word intentional about inclusion, so consciously deciding to include so inclusive leaders, they see the individual, they value the individual, they see the person and they're actively and intentionally creating an environment or a space or, you know, a workplace where people are feeling comfortable being themselves, where they're valued, for you know how I was talking about. You know bringing their true selves to work their unique strengths and and so they can make sort of contributions that are appreciated. It's not about treating everyone the same, it's about respecting differences, and they'll let. A true leader will adapt their approach to bring out the best in each person. So they have to give a damn for a start. Okay, so if we take I like using communication as an example, so a traditional leader or a manager will just have a one-size-fits-all communication style. Here are my instructions this is what I expect everyone to be doing and you're going to adapt to communication style. Here are my instructions this is what I expect everyone to be doing and you're going to adapt to my style, whereas an inclusive leader does the opposite. They're going to consciously tailor their communication to meet the needs of the person they're communicating with. So if they know, like a team member's neurodivergent and they've bothered to get to know that person and they know that that person prefers more structured, step-by-step instructions which I know a lot of neurodivergent people I know do right or they might prefer communication in a written form rather than verbal, the inclusive leader will take that into account when they're communicating, and the same goes with how they give feedback and how they recognise people's strengths, for example.
Speaker 2:And it matters. I think that was your question. Why does it matter? I think it matters so much today because people want to feel like they belong at work. I mean, who doesn't? Who goes to work and says to themselves you know, I hope I'm made to feel really different or weird or not good enough or not valued. Today, you know, no one goes to work saying that we all want that sense of belonging and more and more we're just seeing people more consciously looking for workplaces where they feel psychologically safe to. You know, safe enough to express their ideas without being scared of how that's going to go down. And the reality is teams that feel supported and included. They tend to work better together. They take, they stay more engaged and they're they're often more innovative. So to me you know, the business case for inclusive leadership rides itself.
Speaker 1:See, the biggest thing I see is that when I see inclusive leadership, you've got to live and breathe it. You know you can't just be like, okay, we've got this program where we support neurodivergent people, for example, and we're going to comply, and you know, but this is who I am, this is what I need to be like, and when I'm, when I'm, who I'm referring to is like the manager. Right now, this is how I am. But you know, what you say doesn't really apply to me, but we'll work in with you anyway.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that's what I see a lot of, unfortunately, and I don't think they see the problems that they're actually creating from being that we know that with neurodivergent people or it's not even just neurodivergent people, it's, it's people in general if we're able to work in with them rather than the other way around, your team is going to be so much more productive all all together, if that makes sense there. But I'm seeing still so many people are just like it's got to be like this. We've got the KPIs. It's got to be like this. No, the person has to come in on this day. No, they're not allowed to sit there, you know so flexibility, you know as well.
Speaker 2:I think so it's being interested. It's not my way or highway mentality, it's, you know, every person is a lock and a key and if you, if you can find the key to that lock, you can unlock that. So that's why I think um, you know, I had a brief this week from a company looking for training and one of the questions you know when I asked why, why are you looking to do this training right now?
Speaker 2:because I always like to try and get into what their intention is or what's driven it. And they said oh, we want you know, we've had one person disclose recently and we want to know how to better manage them, but we also want to know how we don't let them manipulate us. And I said what does that mean? And they said oh well, you know, we, we don't want them to say, um, I've got autism, so I can't do this bit of my job and I can't, I don't want to do this bit of my job and I don't want to do this, I don't do it like that and I thought this isn't coming from the right place.
Speaker 1:This is not an inclusive leadership yeah, I probably would have said look, um, I don't think I'm the right. And I've told people in the past that I've asked them hey, what do you want this for? You know? And I've told people look sorry, um, I don't think I'm the right person to um, teach this for you. And I've actually cut ties because I think the big thing for me is especially especially with my company, is our values. If a company doesn't fit in with our values, what we're trying to do, especially with social impact, they're not going to meet that. We're only going to face problems by doing business with them. So there's been times where I've said look, you're not the right people for us. They've probably been like what the hell's wrong with this guy? Doesn't he want to make money?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very much the people. What you wish for, right, because you've just got to have that alignment. You've got to be coming from the social model of disability headspace rather than the medical model of disability headspace. You don't want to be enabling, you want to be um, compassionate and caring um, rather than sort of taking that liability risk management really, you know, quite brutal um yeah yeah, yeah, yeah sorry, I've just yeah, I've just had, um, oh, tucker.
Speaker 1:Tucker was on a few few weeks ago, um, so he's just wrote through. That's horrible. How do you encourage organisations to be so deficient Does that say deficient, deficit or deficit focused and see it as a strength? Strengths based on. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Well, I do In my training. I take them through right at the beginning of the session what the difference between the medical model of disability and the social model of disability is. And that's a headset shift, because medical model of disability is a deficit model and the social model is an enabling model and a positive model. So, without having to talk to the people, I talk to these models and I say where the community wants to come from is the social model, because it's so much more enabling. It doesn't point at the person and say you're the problem. It says it's the disabling environment that is the problem. And that's where we need to be as organizations and individuals and change agents within that to be coming at it from an enabling place and coming from.
Speaker 1:Do you know what right? Do you know what right? Like? So I was doing some work somewhere I'm not going to name the place because I'll probably get into a lot of trouble but I did this work not through Neurodiversity Academy, through someone else and when I got there, the manager came up to me. Like it was like this person, staunched, came up to me and was like, oh you know, we don't, we're not ready for neurodivergent people at this workplace, and I'm talking about all this stuff. And they're like, yeah, look, we can't have dyslexic people here because there's lots of reading involved. And I'm just like. I was like ready to go, where's your door? Um, I think I better leave, but I needed the money at the time. So I was like damn, I'm to have to work with this. But it ended up turning out that I had to end up quitting in the end because the person I was dealing with just had no concept about people management. I don't even know why they were in the position that they were doing because they were absolutely hopeless, but this person just was. You know, it blew my mind that the general managers and all that had no concept how bad this person was causing, how much bad stuff this person was causing within their organisation. It just blew my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially when they're in positions of power.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, well, that was where I got to in the end. I was just, like, you know, like this person, like a big thing, especially when I did training with this person. I spoke about the importance of communication, how we communicate, all of this because I knew this person was going to be a problem. And this person ended up abusing me in front of like everyone in the office and I just was like stuff, this, see you later, quit, never set foot in that place ever again. And you just can't. Oh, yeah, yeah, totally, and I'm just like all right, see you later, you pack of idiots. Good luck finding a neuro inclusion consultant out the door. That was months ago. These people are still looking for a neuro uh, neuro inclusion consultant. So I can tell you right now they're gonna be struggling to find someone.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, but anyway, moving on from that, why should leaders consider neurodiversity?
Speaker 2:I often think about neurodiversity as this sleeping giant in organisations, because often they don't realise that just below the surface is all this potential that they haven't tapped into. They're just completely oblivious to it or missing it. Because neurodiversity and neurodivergence is a huge asset in any workplace. You know the stats in Australia. You know 20% or one in five people are neurodivergent. So the chances are pretty high that every team has neurodivergent talent in it and often they're the ones who can bring the fresh perspectives and the unique strengths, like so many problem solving, creative problem solving, out-of-the-box thinking or just an incredible eye for detail. They're the things that can give a team or a company, an organisation, a competitive advantage.
Speaker 1:So who doesn't?
Speaker 2:want that. The key is unlocking it, and that's how do you better support and encourage different styles of thinking, not same-same thinking, you know, that sort of manager thinking versus the inclusive leader thinking, because diversity of thought does nothing except strengthen organisations. And I heard the best thing today and that was that there are some progressive organisations out there, and thank goodness, because that balances out in the types of organisations you were just talking about. But have you ever heard of the CliftonStrengths assessment? No, okay, cliftonstrengths is like.
Speaker 2:It's a tool that's been developed to help people discover their unique talents and strengths. And so I've done it before. I did it about 18 months ago, and it gives you your top, your 35 strengths, and it lists them in order of the strengths to your weaknesses and you get your top five. And what these organisations out there are doing at the moment is using that in their recruitment process to deliberately bring more diversity into teams. So, um, you might say, okay, we know that kim and joe excel in strategic thinking and relationship building with. We're good, we're good for those talents, we don't need any more, we've got those covered. What can we?
Speaker 1:do to fill these strengths here? Yeah, so what we? What we don't need anymore. We've got those covered. What can we do to fill these strengths here?
Speaker 2:yeah, so what we, what we don't have enough of, is um, empathy and analytical skills. So let's identify those strengths in our candidates and so, if you take that approach, you're going to have the strongest team possible, because you're consciously covering the gaps. And I always come back to that same line like, just like we I say this all the time in my workshops just like we need biodiversity in nature for the planet to be healthy, we need neurodiversity of thought for the human race to be successful. So, yeah, thank God some organisations are finally starting to switch onto it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, the only thing I find is that who are those organisations? You know, it's so hard to, and sometimes the organisation and this is another thing sometimes the organisations who say they are actually neuro-inclusive aren't neuro-inclusive at all. You know what I mean. So that's really hard. Yeah, they're like, yeah, we're doing this, but then you get in there and it's complete garbage. Hence what I found out when I was doing some work with an organisation not long ago.
Speaker 2:And that's the only thing you can't know until you're in there and you're getting under the bonnet and you're looking at everything. You know the rawness.
Speaker 1:And this is the thing like neurodivergent people are going to see straight through that crap. You know they're going to come into a workplace and be like hang on, I thought you guys knew about neurodiversity. Yeah, you're doing all of this and you're doing all of that. If that makes sense yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's easy to say, isn't it? But um the proof's in the pudding and um so many organizations have so far to go. I feel like we're right at the tip of this yeah long way, long way to go.
Speaker 1:I think and I I did a presentation um a few and I'm a very big believer in it has to be a top-down approach. If you're not getting that support from the top there, there's no point just coming in and going, hey look, let's get the managers or what I was dealing with education. So they're like, look, we need to get the teachers trained up. It's like, yeah, okay, that will help them a little bit, but if there are other things in place there, we're still going to have big problems there because the teachers aren't going to be able to do their jobs as effectively and in the workplace, the managers aren't going to be able to do their work as effectively if you don't have these other mechanisms in place. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Totally agree with you Top down has to be. You've got to drive it because otherwise pushing up from down here it's just almost impossible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally, totally. So, moving on from that, what basic steps have helped create a neuro? Sorry, what basic steps help create a neuro-inclusive environment? We just spoke about one of them. I can tell you that much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, top down.
Speaker 2:Look, I've had people say to me that, oh gosh, it must take a lot of time and a big budget to kind of create a neuro-inclusive environment. But I say to them that could be more further from the truth. You know, you don't have to make massive or expensive changes to what you're doing. You can start by making small, what I call just thoughtful tweaks that help everyone feel more supported. And some of the more straightforward ones that I talk about with people include even just you know, we've heard it a million times but just offer people more flexible work hours or remote work options. You know, we discovered during COVID the story I told about my team at the beginning was that we by accident discovered that that was really amazing, because that flexibility is just right for people. So you know, even if you just remove the commute element and you let people choose what environment works best for them to do, which aspects of their work, you're going to enable more productivity and focus. Another thing that organisations can do that's really cheap in fact it's free is to. We talked about communication before, so just clear, structured communication is always really helpful because it's going to allow staff to better understand what's expected of them, and I'm not just talking about neurodivergent folk here, I'm talking about everybody, you know, clear, concise communication. Let them know what you expect from them and plan their work in a way that suits them. Another simple step they can take is to just, you know, do what you do.
Speaker 2:Do what I do is to educate people in the business about neurodiversity.
Speaker 2:So run a two-hour or a half-day or a full-day workshop and give everyone at least a basic understanding about what it is and how to support neurodivergent folk, because that's going to what that does, is it drives, you know, there's a lot of misconceptions.
Speaker 2:I do this myth-busting session in my training where I go here is, you know, I ask people to tell me what the myths I've heard about neurodivergence and neurodiversity and then I put up the you know sort of top five myths, and so when you demystify with training, um, you're ultimately helping people work more effectively together. Because, um, I know my sister she had a colleague who just completely misinterpreted her style and they were always kind of never really communicated very well, and when she finally disclosed and told her team that she was neurodivergent, the relationship with this person completely changed. She saw her through a different lens, and so I think that shared understanding and that shared learning together just brings people closer together. So again, it's not about a big overhaul of the business. You can start small. You can make adjustments along the way to help people feel more valued and empowered to do their work, and um doesn't have to be expensive or overly difficult no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I do like the point, like you were saying, that you know, at least everyone, if everyone could have some basic understanding of neurodiversity, I think that would help Because, like I don't know how many times I was sort of in some situations and when I was dealing with some neurodivergent colleagues I'm not colleagues, clients of mine, but you know they were struggling with certain things and it was because the rest of the team that they were dealing with didn't have any understanding or training on what they struggled with, but their managers did.
Speaker 1:Your mate here, who's your work colleague, has no understanding, uh, why you need to, why you enjoy sitting in that same spot every time you come into the office, or why you're struggling with so many messages coming through through your team's um chat or whatever that looks like. Um, so you know, it's it, it goes to. You know, I've even seen like big managers who were like, oh no, I don't need to do this, but um, training, what I mean. And then they've gone and done the complete opposite to what has been needed to be done, not because they wanted to be rude, because they had no idea what they were doing was wrong, because they hadn't done the training, if that makes sense yeah, yeah, I know, and they're shooting themselves in the foot, so you know fine they look like idiots yeah, but you've got a.
Speaker 2:You know, meanwhile, the colleague who doesn't have the awareness is resenting their colleague for getting special privileges or treatment or whatever, because they don't have the context of what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It just creates a really gnarky environment, which isn't fair for anybody is it?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, no, not at all.
Speaker 2:So it lacks a lot of compassion to just kind of educate at one level but not do an all-staff version of it so yeah the smarter organizations are figuring it out. They're cascading the training down um. Ideally, it starts at management yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:And I look, I I understand that time can be a factor. Um, you know I there's been some workplaces I'm dealing with that they're just full sales. You'd know what a sales environment's like and you know, taking that time away for those people to do this, they sometimes be like it's not worth it because we're going to be losing. You know we're going to be losing money because we're not reaching our targets or whatever like that. And it's like, well, you're actually causing so much more problems if you're only just to take out these small little factors yeah, it's a really short-term view, isn't it to to go?
Speaker 2:uh, you know, because if you understand it, you're more likely to lose people because of that culture. So eventually you know how expensive it is to replace people. Oh, yeah, of course, when you lose people because they walk out the door because they don't feel supported. That's it. That's a huge cost as well. So you this short-term view that you might be not making sales and can't afford the time to train people versus the long-term impact of not doing that training. It's just delusional.
Speaker 1:It is that place I was telling you about before. They had a very high staff turnover, no wonder, but it was a very sink or swim type of environment, you know, and I often think to myself. Well, I thought to myself why are these people building a neurodiversity program in this type of environment? Do you know what I mean? Like, are you out of your mind? You know? I think there was a lot of money talking there.
Speaker 2:I was going to say do you feel like it was just a tick-boxing exercise?
Speaker 1:It was, it was, it was it was. And that's where, in the end, I was like this is the biggest load of garbage, because I'm going and speaking at conferences, I'm on things like LinkedIn Live, sitting on this podcast talking to you about how we should be doing stuff. Then I go into this place and this place does it the complete opposite. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of like well, why am I here?
Speaker 2:I'm wasting my time. Yeah, where's the credibility?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. But with that being said, there are some workplaces doing some fantastic stuff, I believe.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there are. I mean, I'm loving, I love working with progressive organisations that you know you're not having to overly convince them that this is the right thing to be doing, they just get it. And hopefully we still are at the thin edge of the wedge of that, I think. But we're moving towards a tipping point because, you know, things around neurodiversity awareness and disability are very much embedded in governance and compliance law these days. So organisations, whether they want to or not, have to be getting around it one way or the other.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, totally. It's the same in education now. So with a lot of standards, especially in the vocational education space, learning organisations have to be providing certain things, have proper understanding, all of that type of stuff, and as a company, Neurodiversity Academy, we're happy to help them with all of those needs by the way, I would be very smart to book, you Will.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks for plugging me on that one. Yeah, Now, moving on from that, how does neuroinclusion benefit the employee lifecycle? Now we sort of touched base a little bit on that, but we can probably go a little bit more in depth, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean neuroinclusion has just such a positive impact on every stage of the employee journey. So that's what we mean when we talk about employee life cycles. So we're talking everything from the very front end. So recruitment process, and then we look at onboarding, performance management and then professional development, and then we look at onboarding, performance management and then professional development and then retention right at the end.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of recruiting, when organisations they actively look for and they recruit neurodivergent talent because there are a lot of organisations out there that are doing that now you know the SAPs, jb Mork and Chase, deloitte they've all got programs where they actively recruit neurodivergent talent. They're ahead of the curve. They know that by doing that they're expanding the pool of you know the perspectives in the team. So, like I mentioned before, we need diversity of thought to be able to access the most potential and the most solutions. So that's right at the recruitment phase, we need to be looking at that.
Speaker 2:And then during the onboarding process, a neuro-inclusive approach means that you're offering you know very clear instructions, you're showing flexibility, you're providing supportive resources that are going to help the neurodivergent person settle into their job more comfortably and we know that when they feel more valued and understood, they tend to be more engaged and they tend to be more loyal and productive and that just makes for a stronger team. So overall, neuro inclusion just strengthens every part of the employee journey, um same as performance management. You know there's a way of giving feedback to people that is going to be more sensitive than brutal, and we know that feedback, if given in a really clumsy way, isn't helpful for neurodivergent A person could quit.
Speaker 1:A person could quit, and we spoke about before how expensive it is when people walk out the door. These people will quit and they won't give you a reason. They won't say, oh, that was the feedback. They'll just say, oh look, I just didn't like the job, but really there's a whole bunch of other things deep down inside.
Speaker 2:Well, I've got to tell you I've got a personal experience about that because I am one of those people. I was one of those people who left an organisation because I didn't feel what I brought was valued, the difference I brought. In fact, I had a very strong feeling that my flavour of difference, if you want to use that term, was actually unwelcome in the organisation. I was headhunted to this particular job and on paper I was told. And during the interviews, I was headhunted to this particular job, and on paper I was told. And during the interviews I was told that I was very complementary to the strengths of the team that I'd be going into and that they were excited about what I would bring and that they really liked the ways in which I was different. So I got in there and the experience couldn't have been further from the truth.
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:So I remember, you know, I looked at the way that we'd do things and processes and I'd be asking questions Okay, so why do we do things this way? Or wouldn't it make more sense if we did it this way? And I was coming from a place genuinely of just wanting to make a process better, more efficient. I could see a better. Genuinely of just wanting to make a process better, more efficient. I could see a better way of doing it. And I was surprised to learn that my manager would take those things as a personal criticism of her work. And we were just coming from completely opposite places and I was told off for questioning because I was told I wasn't being a team player. So that was a pretty crappy experience and I realised that it just wasn't a culture where I could be myself. So I needed to find a more healthy environment where I would be appreciated, and I am absolutely sure that a lot of people in your audience would have been in the same situation. Did you ever have an experience like that?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, heaps, heaps of stuff. I think, um, um, especially with that uh example that I gave you before, yeah, um, I remember when I first started with that organization helping them build, um, what they wanted to build around neurodiversity, I said, look, from the beginning I said this isn't going to work here. I said you've got to put this into place, you've got to put this in the place. This person here, they will never um, uh, work in with us. No one listened. They just kept on pushing forward and I just pretty much turned around and said, no, see you later. This is bull crap. You know what I mean. I'm quite vocal in that type of stuff, but I just kind of stand around and you know, especially when it's something that I'm very passionate about do the complete opposite or turn a blind eye to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense. You know, I totally agree. But I tell you what I think. What you just explained was a good example of a manager versus a leader. So the person you were dealing with that was a manager A leader would have been able to take on that and probably implemented some of the feedback that you were giving them, because you knew you would have been seeing it from a completely different lens and that information is vital to innovation.
Speaker 2:You would think I could see how it could save time and money. All right, and they lost the benefit of that vision because it was personal and there was a lack of emotional intelligence there with that person.
Speaker 1:It's really no, sorry you go.
Speaker 2:No, I was just saying it's just a silly, uh missed opportunity. You know, I mean in a way, and when you think about, that happens countless times, thousands of times a day, in organizations around the world where ego gets in the way of um advancement and evolution of thinking oh, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:It was actually interesting because I spoke to my. I was speaking to one of my advisory board members a few weeks ago now and she was saying she said to me she goes, will you're just so open to feedback? She goes I would struggle with you know, you don't know us from a bar of soap and we've just come into your company and started like giving you feedback on all of these things or what you should be doing and all of that, and she goes. I just can't believe how open you are. She goes I would never have been able to do that and I was. I honestly just didn't think about it that way. I was just like I love the feedback. I said it's almost like for me and we spoke about this when we first started you have so many ideas in your head and you don't know if those ideas are good or bad. And when you have people who are able to say, hey, have you thought of this or this and that or whatever, it just makes you.
Speaker 2:well, I know for me, it makes my brain open up even more and go wow, I didn't even think about that, what a great idea no, you're so right and I'm so grateful for you to you know that you mentioned that idea to me as well, because I've just started with my advisory group on your suggestion and it's the best thing, because I get up in my head a lot and I'm in my own echo chamber and you know you rattle around in your own brain and being able to temperature test ideas and sanity check things with other people is so great and they're all incredibly generous with their time and really genuinely interested in the success of the business, so it's so refreshing, yeah.
Speaker 1:I just love the fact, especially with an advisory board how you're able to you know you're able to get more done, but then you're able to go look, this is what I've done. What do you guys think? Do you know what I mean? And it's so good to be able to go? Look, this is what I've done. What do you guys think? Do you know what I mean? And it's so good to be able to go. And sometimes I'm like look, please be open. Don't think you're going to offend me. Just say how it is. If you don't like something, tell me. Or if I'm not saying something, and a lot of the time, what I've picked up is that what I am doing is completely right like and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 1:I must be doing the right thing, so it's almost a sigh of a relief if that makes sense yeah, to get that validation that.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, you know 90% of the time I'm making good decisions, yeah yeah, yeah, because I think as well, especially for us as neurodivergent people, and especially and I'm a lot better than say what I was when I first started getting into the neurodiversity space you're, and especially when you're, because with the neurodiversity space, like we spoke about before, you've got the medical model, you've got the social model and it's so hard, like. I remember, like do you know a um, I think, a professor called Professor Tony Atwood? Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my first ever public speaking gig in the neurodiversity space was a gig where I was speaking on the same stage as him. Oh, wow, I know right, I know right. And I remember thinking what's that? No pressure? Yeah, I was under pressure. I was like, oh my God, oh my God. I remember having anxiety for the whole day because I didn't speak till the afternoon and I was like oh my God, oh my God.
Speaker 1:And then when I got up and spoke, he was sitting right smack bang in the middle front row right in front of me and I'm like, oh my God, I'm speaking to like one of the world-leading professors in like autism. I wasn't speaking about autism, but you know, I was still like this guy is like he is the.
Speaker 2:He's a god in space, isn't he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. And I started off my presentation and went through it and it went really well and all of that. And then, heaps, you know, I shared, I did like a, a survey and all these people that wrote stuff and I shared it. And um, afterwards, um, I remember walking off stage and people coming up man, that was awesome, we really loved that. And I was like, oh my god, that was awesome, we really loved that. And I was like, oh my God, you know what I think? Yes, that guy's a professor and all that, but he hasn't lived my experience, you know, and that's where I think that, like, our experience and what we know can bring so much to the table. I don't even know where we went off on that tangent now, what were we talking about?
Speaker 2:originally. Oh, I don't know, I'm good at tangents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it must have been something about like not having the confidence for something. Because I remember, like back when I first got into business, it was, oh sorry, we were talking about like why we first got into business. It was oh sorry, we were talking about like why we've got, like our advisory boards and how they're able to validate us. And I think, like now I'm sort of like, oh my God, I do know what I'm talking about and I have heaps of confidence. I don't need to be, but still I need those people to still go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got this, or maybe add this, or I think this needs a little bit more here yeah, I think they add so much value.
Speaker 2:And guess what? I think you know, when you were talking about tony atwood, I have a feeling you're going to be that person, for for other people down the track they're going to be you're going to be that.
Speaker 1:I think you're going to be that. Oh, I see what you mean. Oh, I thought I was thinking, man, I'm going to be like some professor or something. I I will never be a professor.
Speaker 2:No, you know what I mean but just someone, because you're, you're, you're going to be such a voice. You know you already are such a voice in this space and and that's only going to continue to evolve and strengthen and I think you're going to make someone nervous who's going to share a stage with you one day.
Speaker 1:It's going to be, yeah, maybe, but I think once they get to, once they like know I think the good thing with me is that I'm just once you sort of work out my personality, I think you'd be pretty like calm and relaxed. You'll know that you don't need to be so hard up with me, if that makes sense yeah, yeah, yeah, the man.
Speaker 2:That's why I call you the man, the myth, the legend the man, the myth, the legend eh it is I gotta admit, it is pretty.
Speaker 1:it is pretty weird for me when I meet people and they're like, oh my God, it's you. I follow all of these things of you, and I'm like, oh really, because to me I'm just me. Well, it was funny. My mother was telling me one time she was like leaving some organization and the person must have known who I was and the work I do. And the person was like, hey, you're Will Wheeler's mum, aren't you? And like for her that was weird to sort of hear, because I'm just her son, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:When she realised you had a celebrity son.
Speaker 1:Maybe not quite celebrity, yeah, but maybe one day we'll see. But look, moving on, we are pretty close to finishing here. So what are the long-term benefits of inclusive leadership for organizations?
Speaker 2:yeah, the long-term benefits are huge. Look, we know that workplaces that are inclusive tend to have higher employee engagements. Uh, they have lower turnover. They're more innovative. All of the research that is out there supports that.
Speaker 2:So what's not to love is what I always ask. You know, it's basic human psychology really. So when people feel valued and included, they're more likely to stick around and that just slows down. You know that revolving door we were talking about before of people leaving. It slows that revolving door down, which saves money, because we talked about you know all the costs associated with turnover and you'd know it's just expensive to lose people.
Speaker 2:So, inclusive workplaces we know that they're also more adaptable because they embrace different perspectives and idea and that really kind of sets them up to being more resilient long term, because change is inevitable. But resilient organisations whether that change much better than organisations that are shut down to change. And we also know that from a lot of research in the space that companies that are genuinely inclusive they build stronger relationships and reputations with their stakeholders, so clients and customers and potential staff. So it's not just good for people, it's great for business and I think of it as sort of a ripple effect. You know you build a culture of trust and psychological safety and respect for people. It's going to set you up for long-term success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. It's actually interesting because I would definitely say it's the same in education. So in higher education, if we've got more you know. So in higher education, if we've got more you know, neuro-inclusive like, I suppose, people knowing about neurodivergent students that could actually open up a lot of these learning organisations to more funding, certain grants, maybe. There's so many possibilities, but trying to get that across is definitely the difficult part. I'm slowly getting there.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it feels a bit like you know, cracking your head on a brick wall.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it is. It is, it is, and I've been cracking my head on a brick wall for a lot of years. Now I am starting to see a little bit more change, you know, and I think, especially from what it was 10 years ago it's a hell of a lot more forward. So I'd like to see what it would be like in another 10 years. I think we'll be right on track then, you know.
Speaker 2:I hope you're right. I hope even before then I'm not sure if I'm going to be saying it in another 10 years.
Speaker 1:I hope so too. I really hope so too, for the sake of my business and all of that stuff. Yeah, same. But look, Kate, thank you so much for coming on today. It's been great chatting with you. Now, for people who might want to connect with you and find out a little bit more about your work, where can they go to? Where can they find out who you are?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, if folks want to learn about Unify360 and the work we're doing, they can visit our website. So that's unify360 and the work we're doing. They can visit our website. So that's unify360.comau. We've got information on all of our programs, including got just released a new virtually delivered program called Neuro Inclusive People Leadership. We used to run that face-to-face, but we were asked by some clients if we could make it more accessible, so now we run it virtually as three two-hour sessions over three different dates, which is just easy for people to fit into their busy schedules. I'm also on LinkedIn and I share a lot of insights and resources about neurodiversity and inclusive leadership, so people can feel free to contact with me. Get in contact with me. I'd love to hear from them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, you rock, kate. What's the plan this afternoon? Off to the Espy for a few beers, eh.
Speaker 2:Whoa, I was there on yesterday, not today.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were at the Espy, were you? I was, were you watching a band?
Speaker 2:No, just outside. It was a beautiful day, so catching up with friends out in the front, but the music was happening.
Speaker 1:Does it still smell like stale beer?
Speaker 2:No, it's had a huge reno, so it's much more acceptable, oh really. Yeah, much more acceptable. Not a sticky carpet pub anymore.
Speaker 1:Oh, good, good, good, good good.
Speaker 2:You'll have to come there next time you're in Melbourne.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hopefully. I'd like to Wait, I reckon. For some reason I always seem to stick to just the city. But I will make, because I've been able to work out your tram system.
Speaker 1:now Back in the day I could never work it out because your tram system runs on numbers. Am I correct, correct, so you'll catch the 11 to wherever, or the 32 to wherever that's right, catch the 11 to wherever, or the 32 to wherever that's right. Where, say, in Sydney, for example, you would catch the I don't know the Kensington train or the Tullawong Metro. Do you know what I mean? It's by name, not number.
Speaker 2:It makes sense, it's a little easier to follow, isn't it, when it's by name.
Speaker 1:But I don't know, it is a little bit because you're like, oh well, I need to just go there. Just remember the number 96, because that goes past the SB. Okay, cool, the 96, the 96. But yeah, I've got it down pat there. Now, when I was down in Melbourne last, I'm like I want to work out how to catch the trams. It's just sometimes hard knowing where to get off, sure, but but it's getting there, it's good, okay. Thank you, yeah, cool, okay. Thank you so much for coming. It's been a pleasure and for any of our listeners, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. Also, please check us out and rate us on any podcasting platform. My name is Will Wheeler and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Till next time. Also, please check us out and rate us on any podcasting platform. My name's Will Wheeler and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Till next time.