.png)
Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
How do we press play on menopause - Georgie Drury & Dr. Nicole Avard
On this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we explore the intersection of menopause and neurodivergence with two incredible guests, Georgie Drury and Dr. Nicole Avard. This enlightening discussion dives deep into how menopause uniquely impacts neurodivergent individuals and practical strategies for navigating this life stage.
Topics we’ll cover include:
- Meet our guests: Georgie Drury and Dr. Nicole Avard.
- Insights into their work and expertise.
- The effects of menopause on neurodivergent people.
- Strategies and resources for coping with menopause.
- Do medical professionals understand menopause and neurodivergence well?
- The role of stigma and its impact on neurodivergent people in menopause.
- Expert advice for neurodivergent individuals experiencing menopause.
- How to connect with Georgie Drury and Dr. Nicole Avard’s work.
Join us for this thought-provoking episode, filled with practical advice, professional insights, and stories that shine a light on this often-overlooked topic.
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#MenopauseAndNeurodivergence #NeurodivergentWellness #MenopauseSupport #BreakingStigma #NeurodivergentMatesPodcast
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, Will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with special guest Georgie Drury and Dr Nicole Abad. Did I get it right?
Speaker 2:You nailed it Well done yes yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:See what I mean. I feel like I'm under pressure and I need to like get those names right. But I got there.
Speaker 1:But thank you so much you're in a safe space, will, that's fine yes, yes, yes, it would be pretty bad if you just had a go at me, um, especially on this type of podcast. But look, thank you so much for coming on today. Look, um, for all of our listeners, what we're going to be covering today is how do we play on menopause? So, so lots of really good. What we're going to be covering today is how do we play on menopause. So lots of really good stuff that we're going to cover today, a topic that is definitely going to be so important to talk about, something that I probably wouldn't say I know everything about. But hopefully by the end of this, I'll have a pretty good understanding and hopefully, for our listeners, we'll be able to take in a lot of stuff to be able to really start doing some really great stuff for the workplace or just in general.
Speaker 1:But before we do get started, I'll do a little bit of a shout out, just for anyone who hasn't listened before. So if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn, and if you haven't already done so, please go and check this out wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, please remember to subscribe like rate us. Do whatever you can do to help with the algorithm, because every little bit helps. Also, too, I'd just like to do a big shout out to all the work that we're doing over at Neurodiversity Academy. Please go to neurodiversityacademycom to check out all the work we're doing. We've got some really good professional development that's out at the moment still on sale to the end of this week so if you haven't already got it, please go and check it out. It's definitely going to be worthwhile your time.
Speaker 1:Just another shout out warning some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. I like to say that we're not doctors, but one of us actually is a doctor today, so that doesn't really apply for this. But this is a space for sharing experiences and strategies, and if you would like to ask some questions while we're on the live version, which we are right now, please pop it into the comments section wherever you're watching us on the social media pages, and hopefully, if we get it through in time, we should be able to ask it on the social media pages and hopefully, if we get it through in time, we should be able to ask it on the live platform. All right, let's get this show on the road. What do you reckon?
Speaker 2:all right great great, I will.
Speaker 1:No, no, no problem, no problem. But look, I think probably the best thing to do is just, um, tell us a little bit about yourselves before we do get started. Don't know who wants to go first you go Nick.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say you go um. Thanks, will. Yeah, it's. It's really important, um to start these conversations and we really appreciate the invite for um for opening the conversation and safe spaces to share. So my name is Dr Nicole Avard. I'm a general practitioner, special interest in integrative medicine. I've been in primary care in Australia for over 20 years now and I've known Georgie for seven years in a few capacities, but mostly in digital health, and a couple years ago, along with our colleague, jarrah Eddy, we started Metaluma, basically because we felt really passionate about creating a high-tech, high-touch solution for women that was empowering and educating in a space where they could advocate for themselves, and menopause is our first instance of that. So I'm delighted to be working with Georgie and building some really cool technology to help us leverage our clinical expertise so that we can scale and reach more women.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. Well, thank you so much for that, Nick.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Georgie. I'm a bit of a tech geek in sneakers. I've been in digital health since 2000, so a long time and their wait lists are, and how you could actually use technology to help with that. Well, it's a very similar scenario with menopause, and sometimes access to doctors that actually understand menopause is also very limiting. So I think that I'm sitting here with, as Nick said, it's the high touch and the high tech, and so how can we use technology to really help amplify and improve patient experiences?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, and it is. It's definitely valuable and, like I was saying before, we jumped on, especially when we well, georgie, when you came and spoke to me, when we first met at a conference gee, look, middle of this year it doesn't feel like long ago, does it? Geez, time flies. We must be having too much fun, but you know, you came up with an opportunity.
Speaker 3:Santa's coming in a month. How exciting is that. There you go.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I know, Don't tell me it only feels like Santa just left, you know. But no, no, no interesting stuff. But yeah, I, I will admit, when you came up and started speaking to me about, you know, menopause, especially in relation to neurodiversity, um, not that I wasn't shocked, but I was, I was very interested because it was it. I suppose it's not something that I've really spoken or heard about it, spoken about much in relation to neurodiversity, but, with that being said, you know, it's sort of it's all. It's almost like when you, um, I don't know, say, if someone says, hey, have you seen a pink car? You know, lately, and then you start seeing all the pink cars that on the road, you, after speaking to you and like speaking to other people, it was amazing how much it was starting to come up.
Speaker 1:Like I was saying I was on Facebook, on a Facebook group, a few days ago and this exact topic came up and it was like, oh my God, this is very interesting. But you know, I think, like what I would really like to know is like, tell us a little bit about like. You know, I think, like what I would really like to know is like, tell us a little bit about, like you know what you guys are doing. We are hearing about digital health, all of that. What is it that you're doing and how will that help the community, especially in this area?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I reckon let's just unpack it one step and maybe Nick can actually help your listeners with a definition and an understanding of what is perimenopause and menopause.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And I think if we can start there, then we can say why it's so important about the work that we do. So I don't know. Nick, do you want to introduce us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so well, yeah, let's dive into menopause first. And I think I mean one of our biggest values is education, awareness and empowerment. So menopause is getting a lot more airplay and awareness is definitely increasing, but it's still got a long way to go. So let's start there. What is menopause? So, basically, it's one day in a woman's life and I just want to call out when I'm using the word woman, I mean assigned female at birth so one day in a woman's life which is exactly 12 months after her last menstrual period. So a woman will generally cycle through a period about once a month, and then the average age in Australia is 51. And then, so you know, 12 months after her last menstrual cycle, that is her menopausal day. Everything after that, she becomes postmenopausal and everything before that is what we call perimenopause.
Speaker 2:Now the perimenopause transition is the bit that's often poorly misunderstood and under-recognised, and it's because that transition can happen anywhere from four to ten years prior to the menopausal day, and there's a whole range of symptoms independent of hot flushing, which is mostly what people associate menopause with.
Speaker 2:They associate it with periods stopping and hot flushing.
Speaker 2:So there's a whole range of symptoms that can start to occur four to 10 years before that.
Speaker 2:So these can be things like hot flushing, insomnia, insomnia independent of hot flushing, joint pain, dry skin increasing in headaches, weight gain, emotional changes such as changes in mood, low mood, anxiety, increasing rage, irritability, cognitive hypofunctioning independent of being neurodivergent, and then other things that are often even not brought up in consultations, like loss of libido, vaginal dryness, recurrent urinary tract infections, you know, changes in vaginal microbiomes that's affecting sexual penetration, and dryness. So there's a whole kind of gamut of symptoms that when you show up at a doctor's surgery, even just trying to unpack that in a system where doctors are traditionally pressured to see patients kind of every six to ten minutes, it is really really difficult. And then so I'm so delighted to be having this conversation with you because when you just kind of start there and say, look, awareness is key and here's all the things that might be going on and let's unpack what that may look like for each individual, and then you have to wrap neurodivergent around it, as we'll dive into a little bit later. Like it's a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, and I'm only assuming, it would probably get passed off as a lot of other things before it can be diagnosed. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the classical definition, or the proper definition of perimenopause is a change in menstrual cycle by more than seven days, but some of these things can be occurring before that happens and you're right, it may well be passed off. Oh, you know, we're off at busy times in our lives where we've got careers, we're working, we're parenting up to elderly parents, we've got younger children that we're looking after, and it may well be passed off as you're anxious or depressed or you're distressed and sleep deprived. But you know, as we will also talk about a little bit later, you know, conversations around hormone replacement and menopause for any woman in her 40s who's experiencing this need to be on the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting, interesting, you know, and I can see so many, I suppose, things that what's the word I'm looking for like work hand in hand with neurodiversity, which could almost like people could miss these neurodivergent conditions as well because of other symptoms that are going on, stuff like that. So you know you were saying you wanted to start off with, you know explaining a little bit about what menopause is and all of that. How is now you know, the work that you do? What is that? How is that related to what you do now?
Speaker 2:Do you want to take that George?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can, so I think Will.
Speaker 3:What's very interesting is that we've never been at this point in history before we've had so many women over 40 in the workplace, and these women who are over 40 are also managing potentially elderly parents, and that they have some form of potentially child in the house, whether or not you could be a 42-year-old with a newborn and menopausal, or you could be dealing with teenagers, and so I think that's a strong interest for me, because what we're seeing is that women are often opting out of the workforce or reducing their hours and saying no to promotions at this time of life, and so I'm like right, employers, you need to care about this, insurance companies you need to care about this, governments and society need to care about this.
Speaker 3:And then, as we say, if we're dealing with half the population who are female, and then I think the numbers and help me Will if I'm incorrect, but one in five are neurodiverse, so that is a huge chunk of women that we need to support and we want them to be at their best so that they can be, you know, thriving and contributing to society. And so that's the work that we're really interested in is helping employers really understand how important this is.
Speaker 1:You know, I think the thing that I found interesting, especially when I was watching you talk on that panel and you sort of spoke about it now we're seeing that there's so much of a higher range of women in their 40s working in the workforce. Now, all of that and correct me if I'm wrong you were saying that, like you know, we were seeing it used to be the case that a lot of people would, a lot of women would, retire in their early 50s. Is that correct? Yeah, that's exactly right. When you're really probably almost at the, not the. Yeah, really, that's when, like, you could be getting some offered some really fantastic roles, all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think about it. You know we have, you're most confident, you're the most educated, you're the most accomplished, and yet something like perimenopause, which is can be treated. I mean, we've got to be clear it's not a chronic disease, it's just a state of life. But if we can help women solve for that, then they can really live really productive lives and be, you know, working at their best. But then I look at the financial piece on that. If you're still working, that helps to contribute to superannuation. So, as we're living much older these days, you know women can live well into their 90s. It's how do you have the financial means to support yourself? Well, you need to be continuing to work now and earning as much as you want to work and do the amount of hours that you want to work. And so that's the professional women. But what I'm also very passionate about is our feminized workforces, because we are. Our teachers are getting older and our nurses are getting older, so we really want to keep that cohort of women also working at their best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally, totally. So you know with what you guys are doing. You know, especially with technology, what is it that you're actually working towards with? So would you class yourselves as a tech company?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I wouldn't I guess, to add my.
Speaker 2:I work in health, so I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I guess to add my piece of to that conversation is that we we are really passionate about finding a new model of care. Right, health care is breaking in australia and that's just getting worse. Since covid gps are under pressure, psychologists are. Since COVID GPs are under pressure, psychologists are under pressure, psychiatrists are under pressure, diagnostic and assessment pathways are under pressure and it's going to take a bit of time to kind of reinvent that. But we want to be on the forefront of that and be at the pioneering edge of what we call flipping the model.
Speaker 2:So at the moment, as we see it, like general practice is your first point of call, right? So if you've got something going on, you usually go to your GP to sort that out. And that's getting hard to get into, particularly in rural and remote communities and even in metropolitan areas now it's getting hard. And remote communities and even in metropolitan areas, now it's getting hard. And with costs of living and costs of practices, you know there is a greater gap in accessing healthcare. So what we want to do is flip that upside down.
Speaker 2:Empower initially women as our first instance, to be aware, to understand how their symptoms are affecting them, almost to be their own history takers to monitor their symptoms, to advocate for themselves, so they can come into the doctor with almost the history done and say this is what my lived experience is, here's my symptoms. This is what I think is going on. Then we've got a whole range of education. I've read up about this, this and this. Here's what I've changed with my food. Here's what I've changed with my diet. Here's what I think about MHT. We will put, you know, menopause trained nurses around that so we can guide them along the way if they've got questions, so that they can go to the doctor with, hopefully, 90% of the work done for the doctor to say I this is what's happening for me. Here's what lifestyle things I feel like I can change. Here's where I'm at with my preventative health. Can you just help me with this little piece?
Speaker 1:yeah, great, so better access, more knowledge, just to be able to go take that pressure off the doctor, yeah, and just go in and go, here we go. This is what everything is Okay.
Speaker 2:yeah, great, we don't want to replace doctors, we want to walk alongside women and we want to walk alongside doctors to say, hey, we're going to do all the heavy lifting here, you just do what you do best, both as an empowered patient and as a doctor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great great.
Speaker 3:Think about our billing, our current model, that you'd be lucky to spend 10 minutes with a GP, and you know Nick talked to some of the symptoms. At MetaLuma we identified 28. You cannot unpack 28 symptoms and what's going on for you in a 10-minute consult. So we're really trying to help the doctor and the patient both have a really informed and very you know comprehensive consult in that 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:And out of curiosity, right, and this sort of relates to sort of neurodiversity, but getting a diagnosis for, say, if you're ADHD or autistic or whatever that might look like, that can be really expensive, very time consuming. What's the? Is there a huge cost involved with getting diagnosed for menopause? All of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:No, so great question. So it's a clinical diagnosis. So there's no cost at all. It's just oh, here's your symptoms and you are within this is happening to your cycle and and this is this is therefore what it is, um. The only caveat to that is if you, if you're a woman who doesn't have a womb ie had a hysterectomy um or has an iud in place and and the cycle or had an ablation, say, and the cycle is irregular and you're not quite sure what's going on, then you can, in some circumstances, do some blood testing that can point you in the right direction to see if you're menopausal. But that's not usual.
Speaker 1:It's normally just around taking a good history and symptoms and then coming to a kind of shared decision yeah, and definitely helpful like you were talking about rural all of that if you're able to get all that stuff done. Because, like I remember, when I was living up in townsville, people would just come into townsville from a lot of these big like um properties out west just to see the doctor and that had to be like a week. That was like a week plan to just go see the doctor, where this can probably cut down a lot of that. And go look, because I'm not, I'm assuming that you know, maybe in the past you've had to go to the doctor, go away to come back, you know, and it's been-backwards type of thing, where this will eliminate all of that and go look, we've got all of it here, here's the evidence, let's get started, type of thing.
Speaker 3:If that makes sense. Well, it's early intervention right. And that prevention piece, because we know, like Nick, as she said, she's a doctor, she's at the coalface, doctors are under pressure, women are only taking time off work, booking appointments, driving, as you say, from um to townsville, from rural, when they're at a state of distress so it's how can we help them get? Some learning and understanding before they're at a state of distress and and that's where we really want to see that we can come in and bridge that gap. No, that's awesome that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I love what you guys that we can come in and bridge that gap. Now that's awesome. That's awesome, I love what you guys are doing. So you know, you know, like we spoke about, we were like man, especially when you spoke to me. You were like look, there's so many correlations between neurodiversity and menopause. So what are the effects of menopause on neurodivergent people? I think this one will be interesting. It's all been interesting, but based on what we're sort of here to talk about today and our listeners.
Speaker 2:I think the first thing to say is that we don't really know. You know there is a dearth of research in menopausal women that's getting better and, god forbid, there is almost nothing on, you know, neurodivergent women and menopause. So you know, I dug around in the literature for our talk and I found a systematic review that found three studies that could look at it. So you know, we have to start to be consumer driven. So start conversations, like you're doing, to just say, okay, what's the lived experience, what is going on for women at this point in time? Let's start to collect our own data and lived experience. But if we look at what's out there for the moment, there is definitely if you talk to any psychiatrist, there is definitely a change that happens with neurodivergent people and menopause, and the reason for that is that estrogen and progesterone are very powerful neurobiological regulators of the brain transmitters serotonin, dopamine and GABA. So you would probably know those serotonin, our happy, stay calm. Dopamine, most important in our frontal cortex for attention and concentration, and our reward hormone that helps us manage impulsivity. And then GABA is our generally kind of calming hormone. So the effects that the hormones have on that neurobiology is quite impactful. And so what's happening with the menopausal transition is that progesterone is generally dropping, and as is testosterone, and estrogen is kind of fluctuating and then finally dropping. So you get this kind of mix of neurocognitive symptoms that look like ADHD or autism, and if those things are already there, then it can kind of just turn the fire up on them and make it look more prevalent.
Speaker 2:So in my clinical experience, what I tend to see is that I might have a woman who actually has had undiagnosed ADHD all of her life, and then that really comes to the fore when she's in her late 30s or 40s, and that's really hard, because I think those women have to fight hard to get a diagnosis.
Speaker 2:You know they have to fight hard anyway, but then when there's lots of other stuff going on, like you know, my heart goes out to them because that's hard. However, there is also a subset of women that it's almost like a secondary adhd, that they think they've got adhd but they've functioned quite well until they're kind of late 30s or early 40s and as a result of the dropping in estrogen and progesterone and the effect on serotonin, as well as sleep deprivation and inactivity and lack of exercise and stress and all those things. They are then starting to develop symptoms that look like ADHD or other neurodivergent states. So teasing those two things out can be a little bit tricky, but it's really important because clearly column A needs a very appropriate assessment and diagnosis, which unfortunately is really quite expensive, but column B can be treated a little bit differently with possibly lifestyle behaviour and hormone replacement therapy, not to say that column A also can't go on hormone replacement therapy at the same time to, you know, kind of help with the symptoms. So it's complex.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is really complex because, like, would it be that? So and this is just me thinking off the top of my head let's say someone comes into your surgery and goes hey look, I think I'm ADHD woman I'm talking about, Would the first thing you look at is menopause symptoms before you maybe go? Hang on, we really, because, like you were saying there's a lot of, you were saying a lot of symptoms would look like particularly like ADHD, where it could be something else. That is, how would you go about that?
Speaker 2:out of curiosity yeah, look, I'd probably have that conversation, I you. Well, I always have that conversation with them. I say, look, this is kind of my experience. How do you feel about? And I just go with where they want to go. How do you feel about? Let's address column a. Let's let's address column b. Let's look at sleep, let's look, look at movement. You know, I know that you're tired anyway. Let's have a discussion around menopause, hormonal therapy. Let's see how far that gets us, or do you want to do? And then and then we, you know, I can take a history back to tell me what it was like at school. Tell me about your family history, like what, what's been going on for you? Do you think you're in column A, where you've possibly been undiagnosed for you know, the better part of 40 years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's interesting Out of curiosity too. So when I've spoken to a lot of my friends who have, some of them took like nine times before they got a diagnosis for like their ADHD and autism and a lot of them found and I'm not like dissing male doctors here or nothing, but do you find some male doctors may not fully understand all of this type of stuff and this is why some of these things are happening, just out of curiosity oh, 100.
Speaker 1:I think all of us don't fully understand this stuff it would be hard, it would be so hard to be able to pick that so hard like?
Speaker 2:it's so hard because we don't have. You know, as georgie said, we're at a very unique time in a woman's working life where we're on, where there's different diagnoses going on, there's hormonal changes, there's different pressures you know what you know. So that's hard in its own right. And then, as as doctors, um, you know, we we usually have things are changing very quickly. The landscape around neurodivergent populations and assessment is changing quickly, right, the landscape around hormone replacement therapy or menopause, hormonal therapy, is changing quickly. The training around, you know, menopause and the impact that it's having on all body systems in women is changing quickly. So, unless you have a particular interest in these things, you just can't keep up. Like, you know the amount of stuff that comes into my email where, if it's about, um, you know, prostate cancer, I'm I'm like reading the first two lines and moving on because, because you know so I would be, I would be useless with it. Um, you know, I'm not useless with the prostate cancer. I can do, I can do it, but you know it's not it's.
Speaker 2:It's not like I'm doing. You know neurodivergent populations and menopause a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you sort of I don't know, you would know more, you know more about that area type of thing it's actually interesting because you know one of my friends who I'm just trying to think she got diagnosed.
Speaker 1:It really took her, like I said, took her a lot of times and eventually she got a female doctor who was actually neurodivergent as well and that was what helped her to be able to get the proper diagnosis. So when you really know what you're really studying or looking at, it can definitely sort of help type of thing, I'm assuming yeah, yeah, agree, yeah, which is not helpful for patients.
Speaker 2:That are, you know, trying to advocate because it's confusing and you know it's one thing to have a bad haircut for a hundred dollars and then go and find another hairdresser, but you know when you've got to fight hard to get a diagnosis it's hard yeah totally so you know.
Speaker 1:moving on from that, what are some strategies and resources for coping with menopause? Like, where can people maybe you know, maybe they're at this stage, maybe they're neurodivergent, that they might be listening to this now and they're like look, I need to maybe get this checked out, what, what would be? The first thing you'd probably say would be I'm assuming you're going to say come to my doctor, come to my medical practice okay, cool, cool, so. So so what could be the process?
Speaker 2:Instead, you can download the Metaluma app.
Speaker 1:See, that was what I was pushing for. I was trying to guide it towards that. So, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I think first point of call is know your own journey, so educate and become aware of what symptoms might be yours that are related to perimenopause and menopause, and then how much are they impacting on your life. So understanding that, because then, from a place of kind of empowerment and awareness, we can then start to build, you know, some foundations of strategies. So, for example, if sleep is the most impactful thing, then that's where we start, because from sleep everything else will come. So if you're tired, you're less likely to exercise. If you're tired, you're more likely to reach for refined carbohydrates. If you're tired, you're um, you're it's more difficult to manage your mood. So so, as a general rule, you know it's probably all the stuff that you hear which can be difficult, but you know, ensure it's probably all the stuff that you hear which can be difficult, but you know, ensure that you're sleeping well, ensure that you're having a diet high in protein and fibre and rich in brightly coloured fruits and vegetables.
Speaker 2:I cannot emphasize moving enough. And thanks to Christopher Hanbury-Brown and thanks to Christopher Hanbury-Brown, he sent me some great studies around the impacts of stimulant medications and the increased risk of cardiovascular disease and reduction in bone density. So the best way. So even just knowing that, as a neurodivergent person, that if you're on stimulant medications, seek out information on what is my cardiovascular risk, what is my cholesterol, what is my sugar, what is my blood pressure like do am I at risk for, for fractures because of a family history? Or what is what is my bone density which comes with a little bit of nuance because there's medicare criteria around that, but very practical things that we that then feed into. Well, how are you eating and and and are you moving enough? Because we know that exercise is far and away the best treatment for depression, we know that it helps with adhd, we know that it improves cardiovascular risk and we know that it helps with bone density. So if I had to say two things, I would say educate, educate you, and oh great yeah, so I'll just read it out.
Speaker 2:So my fruits are just rusted out on the weekend, so I'll have to think of another option oh, you're what sorry my freezer, my freezer that I get okay.
Speaker 1:So so just for all the listeners. So, um, we've just had Natalie come on just sharing a question. She said cold therapy has helped me a lot for peri and ADHD. So could that be? So cold therapy could we go maybe a little bit more into? Are we talking about? Like ice baths out?
Speaker 2:of curiosity, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so ice baths and all of that, so that can actually really help with like ADHD, you reckon.
Speaker 2:Well for some people because it's impacting on vagal tone. So we're talking about nervous systems here. So sympathetic, drive, fight or flight, you know often what we're existing in every day versus vagal, parasympathetic tone, which is rest and digest and be calm. You know, and we know that focus and digest and be calm. You know, and we, we know, that focus and attention and concentration is much better when you're in more, when your vagal tone is higher, as opposed to in the fight or flight, uh, circumstance. So so the the inference is that cold therapy is improving vagal tone, um, along with a whole range of other things, um, and therefore, symptomatically, it can be helpful for people with ADHD.
Speaker 2:But exercise is across the board, like, free and available, and I know there are barriers to exercise for women for a whole range of things you know access to sports and increased risk of injury. So if you're struggling, certainly if you've got resources, sinking that into a qualified exercise, know, qualified exercise physiologist to guide you on how to build muscle and prevent those, you know, lower your risks in things that your risks increase in as you get older. And finally, you've got to have the menopause hormonal therapy conversation around. You know, we don't know if it helps with ADHD. Professor Jayasharasha Kulkarni at Monash University is passionate about using MHT for anxiety and depression in menopausal women as the first instance, as opposed to SSRI medications. So I think there's got to start to have conversations and then more research around. Well, let's try a bit of MHT. As long as it's not contraindicated, it's safe, the risks are very low and doesn't just help.
Speaker 1:Sorry. So MHT, what is that exactly? I think I have heard about that before.
Speaker 2:Menopause hormonal therapy, so the acronym has changed from hormone replacement therapy.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, because was was there, I don't know. I just remember sitting down, um, it was actually just after I met georgie, actually, and I was sitting down with, uh, three female friends of mine and we were talking about, you know, menopause and all of that. Um, is there like some uh, like drug that's should is getting prescribed more or not being prescribed enough, or I don't know? Am I saying it right? I don't know. I just remember them talking about and they're like I'm on this now and it's made things so much better for me. I'm not 100% sure of what I'm talking about, but I just remember them talking about that and it seemed like it was really helping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And so to kind of sum up that bit education and awareness. Think about your lifestyle two big ones there are sleep and exercise and then have a conversation around MHT. And what you're referring to is about 20 years ago there was a study called the Women's Health Initiative and that blew the safety of hormone replacement therapy out of the water. So it overrepresented the breast cancer risks and the cardiovascular risks and subsequently the bottom fell out of prescribing hormone replacement therapy and many women suffered through those years for the better part of 10 or 15 years. And since then the landscape has changed because we've got more research now, we've done more development in our pharmaceutical world so that the delivery, how we deliver hormone replacement now, is much safer. So we now know that the risks, the benefits, are very clear.
Speaker 2:Sorry. It's definitely the best thing for treating hot flushes and and probably will get other improvements in sleep, mood, cognition, um and and sometimes in joint pain. Uh it you. If you start it within the first 10 years after menopause, your cardiovascular risk is reduced. There is a reduction in all cause mortality, so dying from anything. It will protect your bones and we think that it will probably give you some protection against dementia.
Speaker 2:The studies are a bit mixed on that at the moment. It still needs a bit more research because we're early on in that phase, but it it's looking promising and and we used to think that you used to say you had to stop it after five years. That's not the case anymore. The risks are really low about one to two per thousand women um over five years, for both breast cancer and clot. Even that depends on your age and how you're taking it. It does go up a little bit once you're hitting your 60s. But, um, there are a lot of benefits now and and certainly worth discussing, and these are the types of things, with empowerment and education, that you can take to your doctor and say this is what I've learned about MHT. My sleep is terrible and my mood is low and I can't concentrate and I'm flushing four times a day. I really want to give it a go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting, interesting. Sorry, I'm thinking I might miss the next question because it's just do medical professionals understand menopause and neurodivergence? Well, I think we sort of covered that a little bit before, so I might move on to the next one there, because this probably is probably a real big thing as well the role of stigma and its impact on neurodivergent people in men. And pause. So would you find that you know there are a lot, there is a lot of stigma around um, I suppose, maybe trying to be identified as um autistic or adhd, and you know all of that type of stuff yeah, um, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I mean I'd be interested in what the the the listeners lived experience is, but I think you've got a stigma firestorm here, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, george, you can speak to the number of corporations we're going into where women just won't speak up because of their, because of their menopausal symptoms, and then when you blend that with being neurodivergent, then you've got stigma times two squared right.
Speaker 2:So I think that this time of life, and particularly for women, already comes ladled with a heap of guilt and shame for not being enough, and that's a culture we're kind of, you know, living in. And when you wrap, you know the neurobiological changes and sleep disturbance and everything that can come with menopause. And let's be clear, not all women suffer through menopause. About 20% of women will have little or no symptoms and yet 20% can have a really tough time. And speaking to you, you know trigger warning at the front that if you are having a tough time, please speak to someone your local doctor or emergency services or lifeline, because there is no need to suffer through this. And then, when you wrap around that there might also be guilt and shame associated with neurodivergence and how to navigate that because of different requirements you know, particularly around attention and concentration or strategies that are required to, you know, to keep on point and focused at work or something else, then I think, unfortunately, stigma is a natural outcome of that.
Speaker 1:I just sort of want to. And Georgie, maybe you could come in here on this one. You've been pretty quiet there, my friend.
Speaker 2:But you're just nailing it, you're nailing it.
Speaker 1:You know, I think it was interesting before we came on. We were talking about, like you know how, certain things happening in the workplace now and it's not a question here that I've got, but I it just comes to my mind and I was like this will be perfect to talk about. You know what type of things should you know, maybe workplaces have in place to really be supporting? Um, you know both of these things, or you a whole bunch of things in general. So people, you know, I think it comes back to when I first met you and you were talking about how a lot of women were retiring a lot earlier because they just couldn't really cope with what they were going through and all of that. What type of things could workplaces maybe have in place now to really, you know, encourage women to be able to work on into however long they want to work till?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we really need to look at the culture of a business, and so it's. Do they have an inclusive culture? Have they created psychologically safe culture? Can I ask for help if I need it? So, irrespective of menopause, it's. Do I have a culture that is embracing diversity, irrespective of neurodiversity? And then can I bring my whole self to work? So that's step one.
Speaker 3:The cultures that are doing it really well are then offering those awareness campaigns, because, if you can think about where mental health was 10 years ago, it's now much safer to. You know, put your hand up and say I need help, which is fabulous. And so this is the next sort of iteration that we're seeing of good workplaces that, yes, we have sorted out that mental health, yes, you can bring yourself your whole self to work, whether you're LGBTQI plus. And then now it's that next level of, well, what else is going on? So, am I perimenopausal or menopausal, or am I also neurodiverse? And so those organizations that are embracing those conversations, embracing those people, they're going to win the war for talent at the end of the day. Because you know, I think, as we spoke before we jumped on the call if I'm not getting that from my employer, then you need to start walking and going to find those employees that are going to be offering that for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's my first thing, yeah, totally, and I think this day and age, like what's the word I'm looking for? Like it's not acceptable not to be accepting of different people's needs, if that makes sense. You know, not long ago I got abused in the middle of an office because I was trying to, you know, do something around neurodiversity and I was just like you know what, I don't need this. See you later. You know what I mean Because this type of culture just doesn't exist anymore. Well, it exists, sorry, but like it's not um acceptable anymore to be this.
Speaker 1:These toxic workplaces that is, um, you know that, that you know, push people to um, you know, not being able to be themselves. I think, you know, if I, looking at it from a neurodiversity point of perspective, when I was able to be myself, when I was able to share hey look, I am struggling with my mental health now I felt so much better, I felt safe. I think safety is such a safety is not just tripping over a cord in the middle of the office. There's so many other things here too. And you know, I think, especially with women, when there's, you know, they're going through a tough time with their menopause, at that time, having that time off to be able to just relax, and that's probably going to do so much better, I'm assuming.
Speaker 3:Well, I think if we look at the diversity statistics, rmit did a big piece of research and it said that if you can increase women in leadership by 10%, then it can deliver significant shareholder value, and for the average ASX listed company that's over $100 million. And so it's. How can we ensure that we are keeping women in leadership and working to the maximum amount of work that they want to do? And similarly, it's a lot of women during this timeframe may take a little bit of extra sick leave, but they're actually lying about it. They're not saying why they're taking the sick leave, because they're not creating the psychologically safe place to say I need to take some time off because of my menopausal symptoms. They'd much rather say I need to take time off because of my mental health, which is fine and great. But let's look at the root cause analysis and say well, if we can solve for the menopausal symptoms, then we're all going to win at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:And once again and I just feel that, like when and like, as I'm talking from my point of view, when I've been able to be open with people, I feel more comfortable. I feel, do you know what I mean? Like when anyone can be open about hey look, I'm struggling with this at the moment, you know, and I have a manager or a supervisor who can understand that. For me personally, it motivates me to want to do more in that workplace because they support me, if I'm correct in saying that.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean, I think the thing to highlight there is that, in my experience, women know how to heal themselves best, right, it's not like necessarily that they're looking to their employer to find a solution and solve for it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, if employers are open to that, amazing, that's great. But in the research we did with the digital health crc, it was about, you know, community and shared experience, so that the fact that women felt empowered enough to then speak up about their experience, their menopause experience in the workplace, and then there was a butterfly effect where then the next person would speak up and then the next person would speak up, and then they'd be like, oh right, it's not just me that's full of guilt and shame and other women are suffering, and then that then builds a groundswell of well, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:What's working for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's how we improve.
Speaker 2:That's right. So, without starting the conversation, we will never know how menopausal women and menopause plus neurodivergent women are going to what they need in the workplace. We have to start the conversations and then start to explore, because there's going to be no kind of roadmap for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're so right on that because you know you can feel so alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's heal in community right. It's the only way we should heal.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally. And I remember, like if I'm going back to school, I remember I thought I was the only dyslexic kid in school, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:But then, once I started being open about stuff, so many people come to me now who I used to go to school with and like, oh my god, I was as well. And I'm like, oh my god, I would never have known. But you know, I think as well. Like when we start talking um Georgie, when you and I first um had a conversation a few weeks ago about, you know, trying to come on the podcast and connect you with some people, you know, I think a big thing, it's not just a women thing.
Speaker 1:This is where it's so important for other people to be learning about all of this stuff. It's the same with, like, neurodiversity as well. Like you know, it's not just I don't have to preach to neurodivergent people about the problems that we're having or whatever, but when other people can come on board and really start to go, hey, what can I do to help? This is where more people start coming out of the woodwork and we start seeing some really great change if that makes sense, work and we start seeing some really great change if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I think you know one of our clients. They've opened up, you know, medical support for their employees and they're not just looking at the women. We can actually now talk to the men and have a conversation with how this is manifesting for their partners or their wives at home as well so that we can help the men be more empathetic and better caring partners, um.
Speaker 3:So I think it's just wonderful that we actually need to look at menopause as a whole of society thing that we can all work together on totally, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:Um, we are getting towards the end type of thing. But you know what would be some advice for neurodivergent individuals experiencing menopause, and we sort of covered a little bit around this. But what about if we are in the workplace? You know what? What could you know, what could we probably do? Because I can tell you right now what a lot of neurodivergent people and if there's evidence behind it, a lot of the time when there are big issues happening, they're afraid to speak up, they'll quit. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean and some of these people can be brilliant at their job, um, but they won't give um a um, not an excuse. Like uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Like uh, a reason why they've um yeah, yeah, why. You know, they might say oh look, I've.
Speaker 1:I just realized that the job wasn't for me anymore you know where there could have been some really great things put into place and this person could have really been thriving. So what could be some advice for maybe some people from neurodivergent people experiencing this in the workplace could be?
Speaker 2:Well, I think to Georgie's point. You have to kind of assess the lay of the land, of the culture, right? If you're not feeling safe to find a colleague or someone to speak to about your experience, then that's super tricky. If that's the case, then I would be, you know, seeking help from a medical practitioner. So first of all, as I said, empower yourself with. What is menopause? What are the symptoms? Am I experiencing them? What are the ones that are most impactful for me?
Speaker 2:Then there's a bit of a lifestyle audit, usually around, as I said, sleep, exercise, exercise, uh, food. You know it's important that women are eating a gram of protein per kilo of ideal body weight. Most of us aren't hitting that. Keeping our fiber up, um, and then, and then going to a gp to see if um, a, to get your kind of your health, uh, preventative health, sorted around cardiovascular risk and bone density and and cervical smears and pap smears and that type of thing.
Speaker 2:But having a conversation around, should I start mht or hormone replacement therapy and see what happens to my symptoms? So I guess you can balance those two kind of lanes around. Is it safe enough to start conversations in the workplace, even if it starts around menopause and you know, like awkward conversations only start by having awkward conversations and it might well be like oh hey, I've been listening to this podcast around menopause and I didn't know that there was like 28 symptoms and here's some of the things that I'm experiencing. And if you do that with another middle-aged woman then more than likely they're likely to go oh my God, yes, like my sleep is terrible and you know and then kind of, as I said, wrapping it around with the symptoms that can look very similar for neurodivergent and therefore escalated in the menopausal journey. You know, it can be nice if you can find an ally in the workplace, but if you don't feel you can then empower yourself and then seek advice with a medical professional, particularly around hormone replacement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I think a big thing that's when people start talking up, especially from a leadership perspective. You know if you're a leader in the company, really leading in those types of areas can really help the rest of the workforce start to really open up. The last podcast we were talking about leadership and all of that and the importance of you know speaking up around certain issues can really help people start to come out of the woodwork type of thing when maybe they haven't in the past, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Do you have anything, Georgie, to add with the workplace?
Speaker 3:No, I just think that where we're at is we're on this whole next generational change, and I think that we've had women who have had babies or now have gender-neutral parental leave, right, which is incredible progression.
Speaker 3:And now then we need to think about what's the next thing that women want, and whether or not you're neurodiverse, whether or not you're menopausal, we have to meet women with where they're at and give them the awareness and the access to care that they need so they can live their best lives. And then I think, if you can, I often think about if I can look after mum. Mum goes home, she's going to help look after dad, and then she's also going to help look after the children, and so if we can keep mum as the center of the household, happy and healthy, that has a flow on effect. And I appreciate there's a whole bunch of women that don't have children, um, but I think it's that or that you know they do have a partner and it's how can we look to the women as being central in improving the health and well-being nation?
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, totally Well. Thank you so much, but look, you know we've gotten to the end of that like awesome conversation there. You've definitely opened up my mind to a lot.
Speaker 1:I'm actually looking forward to my wife coming home from work today so I can start speaking to her about stuff. For some reason she doesn't really listen to the podcast, I don't know why, but she might listen to this one, so it would be good for her to check out, I think. But you know, where can people actually connect with all the good work that you guys are doing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, definitely come to our website. So if you come to our website, we can help you understand whether you're an individual or whether you're a corporate, and, if I can do a shout out, that we're looking to undertake some neurodiversity and menopausal research next year, and so I do have a link which I can put in the chat, or, yeah, if you put it into the chat and can you put your website into the chat for me?
Speaker 1:and I'll pop it up into a banner here so everyone can see it and maybe connect with you as well. And you know also, too, if there's people who are watching or listening to this who follow myself on LinkedIn. I have tagged both Georgie and Nick into the post for this podcast today, so I'm assuming that it's okay to connect with you both.
Speaker 1:Is that all right, absolutely I don't want to say something without asking. I suppose Whoops, what am I? Sorry, I just put your website into the chat. Hang on, I'll put it into the banners here. There's my ADHD brain too many things going on at once, alright, so here is the website, so I'll just spell it out for people who are listening. So, m-e-t-l-u-m-acom, how do you pronounce it? Met, met luma metal luma.
Speaker 3:It's a conjunction of two words. So there's this word called metal, which is an old english word which is like grit and valor, so you'd show metal on the battlefield. And then uma, which is the goddess of and princess of splendor and tranquility. So women are tough, but can also be feminine all at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's awesome. Hang on, I should be able to put this link into the chat here and then that will go out to all of our social media platforms. So, yeah, it's going out to all of them right now. So if you go to the chat, you can check out the form to be. Is that the form to be able to sign?
Speaker 3:up For the research. Yes, For the research. Yeah, so like an expression of interest form.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great, great, great, great. So, yeah, please check that out. Go to your guys' website, which we can see up on the screen right now. Connect with you guys on social. Do you have any other social media pages?
Speaker 3:Yeah, instagram, facebook, follow us on LinkedIn. We've got a page, a business page, on LinkedIn, so come and find us Nice, nice, nice. We'd love to help you with it.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, nice. Look, thank you so much for coming on today. It's been great to just sit down and I tell you what it's been a bit of a topic that's probably been a little bit outside of my comfort zone, which is, which is good, okay because, um, I've taken in so much of a type of thing. So thank you so much for coming on today and sharing all of your knowledge, and I love the work that you're doing. And, look, let us know if we can help any more with what you guys are doing.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks for being a male ally Will Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:No problem, no problem, no problem but thank you so much, gently, for you tonight. Tonight that was a big conversation, so it was, it was I was definitely your wife might need to give you a massage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll be like oh my god, I'll sleep well tonight, I'll sleep well tonight. But look, thank you so much, but for for any. But for anyone who hasn't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. My name's Will Wheeler and this is NeuroDivergentMates. Till next time, thanks Bill. Thanks Bill.