Neurodivergent Mates

Accommodations vs. Universal Design for Learning (UDL): Aaron Saint-James

• Will Wheeler, Aaron Saint-James • Season 3 • Episode 67

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In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we’re joined by Aaron Saint-James to explore the critical differences between traditional accommodations and Universal Design for Learning (UDL). Aaron shares his journey and professional insights, highlighting why a proactive approach to inclusion in higher education is essential.

Questions:

  • Tell us a bit about yourself

  • Tell us a bit about your work

  • Proactive vs. Reactive: Rethinking Inclusion in Higher Education

  • Breaking the Mold: Why Accommodations Alone Aren’t Enough

  • UDL in Action: Practical Steps for Educators

  • Future-Proofing Education: The Role of UDL in Emerging Learning Environments

  • Building Inclusive Universities: The Intersection of Policy, Practice, and Culture

  • Where can people connect with you


Join us for this thought-provoking episode, filled with practical advice, professional insights, and stories that shine a light on this often-overlooked topic.

All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com

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#UDLInAction #Accessibility #InclusiveTeaching #EducationForAll
#EquityInEducation

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Will:

You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host Will Wheeler, join with my main man, aaron St James. What's going on, brother?

Aaron:

Not much. I'm pretty keen to dig into some juicy topics.

Will:

Some juicy topics. We were just talking about you getting ready to move shortly, my man.

Aaron:

Yes, never an exciting thing or something to look forward to, but it's got to be done.

Will:

so, yeah, yeah, I gotta admit, moving sucks, man. I saw someone moving into like the apartment. Actually we got, um, our, our rent had been put up and, like I always get worried, I'm like, oh my god, they yeah, yeah, but they only put it up by $10. So I was like you know what I mean? That's not too bad when it's like $250, that's when it's like holy crap, man, that's when you start to freak out. But no, all cool, all cool. Well, I wish you the best of luck with your move. Yeah, thank you, I'm going to need all the luck I can get. Did you want to plug that?

Aaron:

you might have some furniture up for grab shortly. I've gotten rid of the stuff that I don't need to. Yeah, I'm good.

Will:

Okay, so you're good. All right, I'm just trying to help out where I can you know, but I tell you what right. We've got a really cool topic that we're going to be covering today. So accommodations versus universal design for learning. So really cool topic there. But before we do get stuck in anything, I might just do a little bit of housekeeping for anyone who hasn't already done so.

Will:

So if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn, and please check us out. Wherever you listen to your podcast, please check us out, like us, subscribe to us, rate us, write comments to do or to help us to be able to, you know, work in with that algorithm there. Now just a big shout out to Neurodiversity Academy, our sponsor. We're doing some awesome stuff over at Neurodiversity Academy, so if you haven't already checked out what we're doing, please go to neurodiversityacademycom Also too.

Will:

Warning, some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and or strategies. Also, if you've got any questions during the podcast today. Please chuck them in the comments section of wherever you're watching this live. So if you're watching this through Facebook Live or you're watching it through LinkedIn Live, youtube Live, whichever one you're watching it on, please feel free to ask us some questions and if it's while we are live, we will try to answer them as best as we can. Aaron, you ready my man.

Aaron:

I am ready to rumble.

Will:

Awesome, all right, cool. So we might just start off with a pretty basic one today. So, luke, share us a little bit about yourself. I obviously know a lot about you, but share with our listeners a little bit about who you are.

Aaron:

Hey everyone. So my name is Aaron St James. A little bit about me to set the scene. So I'm a mature age student. I'm also queer.

Aaron:

I'm neurodivergent, so I've got ADHD and dyslexia potential, some autistic symptoms, but not enough to get fully diagnosed because I'm quite good at communicating and I'm quite an extrovert at times.

Aaron:

So my psychiatrist is like that does not, uh, you don't fit the mold for that, so we'll see later on. I also have a physical disability, um, and I want to get into like what disability is and like what it encompasses, because I think it's just more than the physical aspects. Like you can't say my physical disability because I have, like a back injury and I have chronic pain. So, yeah, I want to kind of elaborate more on like what disability is and how it's kind of changed. All the perception or the understanding of disability has changed over time as people become more aware that, like visible disabilities are a form of disability too and we have to recognize that. Like I have chronic health conditions such as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia and chronic pain, which unfortunately comes from, I guess, the injury that I had and the compounding stress of being a mature-aged student, starting uni at 30 after being a chef for over 10 years. So yeah, that's a little bit about myself.

Will:

I didn't know you were a chef man. Whereabouts were you a chef?

Aaron:

I've been a chef for a few places. I used to do corporate catering in uh brangaroo. I used to work for a uh catering company which we did uh catering on, like super yachts uh worked for at venues like gucci and ferrari and stuff. It was pretty sick. That last role is where I had my back, so I'm not spewing, man spewing.

Will:

I heard that like um in the hospitality sector. I was only thinking about the other day, you know everyone right why is that? How do you just know everyone? It seems like everyone I know who works in hospitality knows everyone.

Aaron:

It's like living in like a country town where, like everybody just knows everybody's business, I guess, because there's like circuits. There's like the catering circuit, there's like the restaurant circuit, there's like just different circuits and I guess there's like hiring companies and stuff. So like you just kind of I don't know. I used to work at Fox Studios too, which was pretty exciting because I think Chris Hemsworth was there once when they were filming one of the Guardians of the Galaxy movies and like some of those chefs like catered at like the olympics and stuff like that. So it's just like, yeah, it's hard to explain, but there's, I guess, yeah, little just circuits and like pockets and clicks that I have within the hospitality business and do you know what I sort of learned as well, especially when I was doing a little bit of hospitality when I was overseas on your days off.

Will:

You know the hospitality people really know how to party.

Aaron:

What do you reckon? Yes, it's full of alcohol and other substance abuse.

Will:

Anyway, we'll save that one for another podcast day. Nice, nice, nice, nice. But yeah, no, that's interesting, I never knew. I didn't realize you were a chef.

Aaron:

So you, you cook up some pretty awesome meals still, or you're just like yeah I can cook and I do love cooking, but I actually love like styling and designing food more than cooking it itself. I think my adhd likes, yeah, the design part and like it's really like I love focusing and making things look really like neat and tidy. Uh, and because I've got ibs and other health conditions, like I can't cook the food like yeah, okay so it's like a dairy kind of gluten kind of a lot of things.

Aaron:

So it's just like my cooking range is kind of limited so it's just kind of made cooking a bit boring fun anymore, but yeah anyway.

Will:

Oh well, onto. I suppose these things happen for a reason and you're moving on to bigger and better things. Yeah, so you know, um, I obviously first met you through, you know your program, through unswg. About what was that? Two years ago or three years ago, I can't remember, 20 might have been even longer than that 2022 or 2023, I think.

Will:

Yes, two or three years ago, I think yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I was. I think I was still living a ride then, I can't remember. But, um, you know, and I suppose the big thing that we first really started talking about was, um, uh, neurodiversity what's happening in, you know, vocational education and in higher ed as well. So you know you're doing a fair bit of stuff there at unsw, um, but look, tell us a little bit about the work that you actually are doing.

Aaron:

Okay, so I entered. Well, actually, I was diagnosed at 27. I'm currently 34. So I started uni at 30 in 2020.

Aaron:

And in my second year, in my best friend actually, she was a co-founder of the Diversified Project, which I am the student lead and actual research officer for, and through that project it all started off with my friend. She got like an assessment brief for one of her like design assessments that she didn't find accessible, so she didn't know how to like process it properly. But as a design student, rather than just saying that was an issue, she was like, well, why don't I just redesign it and then see what the professor thinks? And he fucking loved it. And um, then, outside of university, my friend Josie and I were just like, why do we feel like we're dumb and like we're broken and that, like in a higher education system we feel like we're like not good enough and when we're intelligent people and we've got a lot going for us, but in this system we just feel like we're not, it's not meant for us. So, with those conversations happening and then, uh, josie going to her professor, we ended up getting a seed funding grant to start the diversified project and initially that started off um like more student kind of side, where we took um a whole bunch of neurodivergent students problems within their courses and through a series of workshops which we used like co-design and co-production. So we were working with students, academics and staff. Majority of them identified as neurodivergent, not all of them but we created a set of solutions to the problems that the students are facing in their courses and then we created a set of recommendations which we proposed to the university.

Aaron:

Then we got more funding and we went into the second phase, uh, which is we've created an inclusive education toolkit. This is more academic facing. So uh, now it's like we know the students, we know what some of the students issues are like. We can never find out all the issues, but a lot of them overlap. And now we've gone on to the academic side of things where it's like okay, well, we know students are facing x issues like let's try and solve them by creating an inclusive education toolkit, uh, which can help academics kind of understand student experience. And we've got five key themes which has like a it's quite basic um, but it's quite comprehensive at the same time because it's like multi-faceted toolkit. But um, it's basic in the sense that, like I work within accessibility and inclusion, so for for me, these should be standard things and any education-focused academic or like teaching staff should be doing some of the things that we've got in our checklist. Like some people might be like, this is just very basic and I'm already doing these things, so why bother? But like we want to get the academics who don't know much anything about neurodiversity, neuro inclusion or making, uh, the education system more accessible, and we want to try to bring them in as much as possible, because they're the ones that need, like we need to like help change their mindsets, raise awareness. We we need to help educate them, we need to make accessibility and inclusion accessible for them so they understand the importance of it.

Aaron:

If I go back on a little tangent, halfway through this I actually met Will through we had like a side project called Storybox, so the Diversified Project collaborated with Storybox, which is run through SM projects, esem projects, and what we did within this Tangent project was we took neurodivergent people's experiences of how they navigated the outside world or, yeah, the outside environment, and we kind of digitalize their stories into like artwork or like, yeah, digital media and then we showcase them on this kind of cool digital cube which is called the story box, which was really interesting because, like, we're raising awareness and providing an understanding of how neurodivergent people navigate the world, but it's in a public space, which it's just.

Aaron:

It's quite powerful and impactful when, like you're watching this, like three-dimensional cube, like with four screens, kind of sharing people's experiences in a public setting, it's like it was quite a cool project. I even had my mom come along because my mom's neurodivergent and, um, yeah, it was pretty cool stuff just to see that like something like neurodiversity and neurodivergent people's experiences was publicly displayed and people are slowly becoming more aware, I guess also through social media. Like neurodiversity is trending and there's a lot of like, oh yeah, how to get diagnosed with ADHD, how to manage symptoms, like all this stuff. But it's, yeah, this was just like people's real raw emotions and their experiences of the struggles they face when navigating, uh, challenging environments, and it's definitely.

Will:

It's definitely interesting when you can see it in pictures, correct, you know?

Aaron:

I think that was the thing that I took away from it yeah, like seeing someone's story, like, whether it's like just a series of pictures or like a digital kind of animation or just like someone's photo with words behind it, it's just so powerful and there were so many cool stories and yeah just, and yeah just. It was really cool.

Will:

Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, the good old days eh.

Aaron:

Yeah.

Will:

No, cool, cool, but look, getting into. You know what we were coming to talk about today. So, like we said before we started, we're going to cover like accommodations versus universal design of learning. So what I did want to start with was the first question here proactive versus reactive rethinking inclusion in higher education. What's your thoughts based around that? Now, you did say a little bit, like you know, we've got toolkits and trying to get not necessarily the people who already know about neurodiversity, but the people who don't know about neurodiversity is going to be crucial in really creating this environment, not just that where you study, but you know Australia, wide, worldwide, all of that type of stuff. What is your thoughts on that? Because obviously there still is a real big gap, but you know we are getting closer than what we were.

Aaron:

Things are definitely progressing. I think inclusion should be proactive. It definitely shouldn't be reactive. I think in some cases it is reactive because there are, like certain, like the Disability Discrimination Act and other education acts, that kind of force education systems to kind of meet certain compliance levels which, to be honest, like this is just my opinion, but I don't think they're living up to those standards and I think that, like accommodations, they can often fix barriers after the fact. But UDL kind of anticipates diverse needs from the start, which reduces the reliance on accommodations.

Aaron:

So I always think of it as, like accommodations, they kind of even the playing field somewhat, but it's like this is a neurotypical level and this is a neurodivergent level and when you get accommodation, just still like not to the same level, but like you are getting an accommodation could be, for example, like uh, as a third year molecular biology student coming from a low SES background, like I didn't finish year 12. I didn't have much of a positive education experience because of my dyslexia and undiagnosed ADHD, like I was always told, like if you just applied yourself you would be really good at this, and it's just like. It's like I can, like I can for every hour of like an exam, for example. Like I get an extra hour and some people might be like that's like way too much, like why do you get that? But it's like I process things. I'm very intelligent, but I process things in a much slower pace than your average person do you find that hour actually does work?

Aaron:

it does, like it doesn't get me like thds all the time, um, but it does help me understand questions. For example, because I think most of the time, like you, spend more time deciphering what the question is than actually like finding out the answer, which is stupid, because it's like, if the question is not accessible, like how do you expect a student to be able to function efficiently in an environment to get the best grades when, like, the answers aren't actually the issue, it's the questions in the first place?

Will:

So you're finding that the questions are a big problem for you a lot of the time. Is that a curiosity?

Aaron:

Not just me. I know a lot of students who kind of just like they, spend a lot of time deciphering the questions rather than like oh yeah, no, I totally agree and that's why I sort of was like is this something?

Will:

because I have heard it not only just say in university but in vocational education as well and I think from what the feedback I've got from people is that the people writing these things sometimes they're not even coming from the background of, like, the topic that's the questions are being written from. If that makes sense, you know they're not say if it's about I don't know bloody um science, they're all they're not science people who are writing those questions, if that makes sense I can't speak towards the vocational sector, but I think within higher education you would have more like science people focusing on science questions.

Aaron:

Um, but I I heard this good explanation of like dyslexia the other day. It's like imagine you're learning Chinese for the first time but then, putting that into perspective, you're answering questions in an exam for the first time because you've never seen these questions before, because every practice exam you have, it's like the questions are never the same and they're never worded the same either. Or if it's in a different format, like a drag and drop thing or like a pull-down thing of like if it's displayed in different ways that you haven't seen yet. Like I have chronic, like complex PTSD, so it's like adjusting to something new that I've never seen before. I've got to it takes me a lot of time. But then there's also my dyslexia and then my adhd, which encompasses anxiety, to kind of just navigate this whole space. But the thing that I was going to get back to you before, it's like imagine learning chinese for the first time and then getting an hour extra to learn. It's like do you think that would help?

Will:

yeah, exactly, it wouldn't help me like it's like.

Aaron:

This is what neurodivergent people and students have to face on a daily basis not all of them, because we all uh have different experiences and our brains work in different ways, but like that's an example of like a dyslexic, how a dyslexic person functions sometimes so can I just say right, I was in a panel, gee, a few months ago now, and someone goes hey, is it true that if you read a book more than once, you will then understand it perfectly?

Will:

and I'm sitting there thinking, oh man, I could read the book a million times but I still wouldn't get it. And then one of the people on the panel said yes, that's correct. And I'm like what, what the hell? You know what I mean. This is the type of information people are putting out there.

Aaron:

There's some really intelligent people who are memorization is in a form of intelligence. I gotta set that straight and that's how education systems, I guess, view intelligence. Like the better your grades or the better at learning you are, like the better your grades will be, and it's like, well, that's not the case. It like memorization is in a form of intelligence, critical thinking and critical analysis, and like emotional intelligence and like deconstructing something and putting it back together. I think that's the form of intelligence. But like, um, what were you saying before? I've forgotten.

Aaron:

Uh, it's like reading a book. Like there's some people that will just memorize and it's like that. It's like it's in there's a lot of autistic people who have a photographic memory. And like autism is a spectrum as well as any neurodivergence. So it's like there's highly functional and there's highly dysfunctional and there's certain levels of autism. But like not many people, I think, could read a book and then just memorize it or understand it fully after. Like potentially, if you read a book and then just memorise it or understand it fully after. Like, potentially, if you read a page and then wrote notes and then keep reading a page and writing notes. Like there's different processes and methodologies people use. But yeah, that's a very like vague answer that person gave because, like you can't just say that like I know. Well, that's a very like vague answer that person gave because like you can't just say that like I know.

Will:

Well, that was the thing. I was so puzzled and I was ready no, but that was the other thing. Then someone else said, oh, can I second that? And they're like yeah, I second that. And like I was ready to just turn around and go hey, look, by the way, I will never. I was ready to just turn around and go hey, look, by the way, I will never. I was about to shut them down, but the whole event stopped at that point. So I didn't get to actually like chime in my two cents, which was like ah, Like.

Aaron:

Some people say that reading a book upside down helps you memorise things, but it's like is that an actual fact or it's like? And if research does suggest that it's like, what was their like? Population of people within the study? Were they new, typical? Were they like? Who were the people in this podcast that you were speaking with Like? Were they new or typical? Were they like? Highly like photographic autistic people?

Will:

It's like you can't just generalise things. It's like every have you ever read a book upside down before?

Aaron:

I have tried. It didn't last me that long because I was just like I, I just I couldn't pay attention, like I was just. You know, when you look upside down and everything just looks funny and you just kind of try to make sense of things, I was looking at that and it was just like yeah, actually just this.

Will:

This is a bit off topic. Have you ever, like, I don't know, laid on a bed and your mate or something's been sitting there and then you look at their, like the top of their chin and they look like a person. Have you ever seen like that?

Aaron:

Those little like hand kind of people.

Will:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, man, let's move on with the podcast, um, but no, no, no. It is interesting. I think that, like um, sometimes the wrong information's getting out there and there, or there may be some information that's coming out, but it's not a one-size-fits-all Sort of that's why universal design is probably such an important thing. So you know, with that being said, oh, hang on, I think I skipped one there. So why accommodations alone aren't enough? Why do you think that's the case? Accommodations alone aren't enough? Why do you?

Aaron:

think that's the case. I said this the other day and someone kind of pulled me up on it. I think, like we have equitable learning services at UNSW and they're great. They give us accommodations, they like advocate on our behalf, like they Can.

Aaron:

I ask what type of accommodations they give you out of curiosity uh, it varies from, uh, everybody's specific needs, like, for example, uh, another accommodation I have besides like an hour for every hour. For an hour, some people get like 15 minutes for every hour or like 30 minutes. It depends how much you ask for, how much, like your doctor like says in the letter that you've got to give them because, like every diagnosis you get like then can determine the accommodation you get as well.

Aaron:

So it's like you have to kind of state your diagnosis and then state the accommodation you need. But this is a thing that grinds my gears. I'm not going to swear, because I could get very frustrated. It's like students, at any level, are coming out of fresh out of high school uh, if they're studying again for the third or fourth time, if they're coming into university as a mature age student like myself, it's like you're expected to know what you need before you need it and it's like how can you know what you're going to need before you? It's like how can you know what you're going to need before you even start one course, let alone three, if you're studying at unsw, which were trimesters, and it's like each course is different, let alone like studying three courses at the same time. And then, like each time you go up a year, it's like things are going to get more complex and it's like every time you need a new accommodation, you need a new letter or a new diagnosis or something which costs people money.

Will:

So it's like there's so many barriers to and so you can't get these accommodations without those letters. Is that correct?

Aaron:

you can't. They're trying to find ways of like helping students in the interim, like because letters may take time. So if they state that, like I've spoken to my GP, I'm getting psychiatrists kind of to confirm these things, I'll have something in like three months. They might give you certain accommodations to kind of help until you get it. But majority of the time, to my understanding, you need like professional, professional and is that all universities that you know of? Out of curiosity, I'm pretty sure, um.

Will:

I don't know a university that wouldn't do it without one um because, like man, I got like diagnosed with dyslexia when I was like 10. I'm like 42 now. Be stuffed if I knew where the bloody diagnosis was or like would your gp? Your gp can do this as well, which is great yeah, yeah, I could speak to them, but like, they would have it, but they wouldn't have a clue that I've like, I have told them, but like, do you know what I mean? Like they, I don't know, it just seems weird.

Aaron:

It's just, you're just getting a note like another accommodation I have is like like I I've managed kitchens, I've managed research projects, uh.

Aaron:

But like in a lab where there's so many things going on at once and there's like, say, like eight lab demonstrators with like each group of like 12 students per like eight lab demonstrators, there's like eight different people speaking at one time and like there's a lot going on. So like I used to have like a lab assistant kind of sit next to me and like pay attention and pick up on things that I kind of missed, because let's say like, if you use jargon, that I've never heard this word before, or like I'm trying to understand what's been said, that could take me a good 10, 20 minutes and if my brain's not focusing on that, what I need to learn from my experiment, that I've got to do my lab because I study science, it's like I've just missed out on a whole heap of shit that I need to know for these experiments. I used to have someone there like listening for me and helping me like regulate my emotions, because sometimes I would get anxious as fuck.

Will:

And.

Aaron:

I need someone to like either tell me like let's go outside and go for a walk and then bring me back in, but it's like I need my hand held in a lab environment. Yeah, like I can manage projects and stuff, it's like, but you put me in this environment, which I'm not used to, and it's like three to four hours long and you get like potentially a 10 minute break. It's like it's it's a lot to put on a student, especially if they've got like sensory overload, because there's bright lights, things going on, so many different types of accommodations students can get, but a lot of students don't know what they can get, so they don't know what to ask for. And I think that this is an issue, and I'm a part of this Students with Disabilities Leadership Collective and we're trying to kind of collate what policies each university has and then I guess what?

Aaron:

Like we're going to try to standardize a list of like comprehensive accommodations that students may be able to ask for, so students know like what they may be able to get before they enter the system, because it's like it's it's such a hassle trying to get a new accommodation added in if you're like halfway through your course and you've got like no time on your hands whatsoever because, like I can't speak for neurotypical students, but students that I do know like they're behind all the time. But it's like if you're neurodivergent, you're behind a lot of the time and you're always catching up, so there's always something you need to do because you'll be handing assessments in late. For example, you'll have like three assessments or something in one week. It's like it never ends and it's just yeah, it's a very clunky system and a very stressful system to put yourself in um yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy crazy.

Will:

So you know talking about that. Um, so, universal design in action what? What would be some practical steps for educators? So you've just spoken about how it is quite clunky. What would probably make that better or easier, do you think?

Aaron:

so accommodations kind of I hate saying this it's kind of like a band-aid approach. It's like the foundations aren't kind of accessible or inclusive. So let's just put an accommodation in to kind of mitigate these things, because academics aren't say uh providing uh transcripts for lectures or like providing uh different formats for assessments to be in.

Will:

Why aren't they providing transcripts or like recordings of their sessions?

Aaron:

Great question. Some academics do. Some academics don't know that it's a feature on the technology software that they're using which is just like. It baffles me. But, yes, like these are things that we're trying to get standardized. And this is where Universal Design for Learning comes in because, like within our inclusive education toolkit I spoke about, which we've created from a diversified project, it's like we use UDL Universal Design for Learning as our main framework to structure everything that we're kind of giving that educators to kind of understand how to like move forward in a more inclusive manner.

Aaron:

And if say, for example, like students, there's like a thing called the hidden curriculum, it's like learning how to learn and there's so many things outside of learning that you need to understand and navigate as well as learning your coursework. And like students don't know how they learn best or what their like set three kind of needs are, or like what their learning style is or what their processing styles are or what their communication styles are. So it's like if the student's expected to give a verbal presentation in front of a whole group of students and they're anxious, or they have dyslexia and like an ADHD, potentially like myself, it's like I can think, but when I communicate, it doesn't come out the same and it's like I've got anxiety blocking my neural pathways getting in the way of, like my execution for communicating. It's like that's an issue for me, in the way of, like my execution for communicating. It's like that's an issue for me. So, instead of getting students to like gain those skill, confidence, skills of presenting in a classroom, why don't you just let them do a recording of themselves doing it and their own comforts? Like it's just changing the being more flexible in terms of like, uh, you provide students, I guess, yeah, more flexible learning environments or more flexible like assessment types.

Aaron:

A universal design for learning kind of encompasses like three different things. So the first one, like is multiple means of representation, so like presenting information in different ways, like I said before, like text, audio, video or like tactile formats, um. The second one is about like multiple means of action and expression, um, so like allowing students to show what they've learned in ways that work best for them, such as like essays, videos, presentations or even art, which kind of ties into the first, uh, yeah. And the third one's like multiple means of engagement, so it's like creating options for students to stay motivated and connected, whether that's through collaborative activities, individual projects or like flexible pacing.

Aaron:

So, for example, it's like when I'm speaking to someone, majority of the time it's kind of polite to look in someone's eyes when you're speaking to them, like right now, like I'm looking here, but if I need to process something, I can't look into somebody's eyes because I need to think about what I'm saying and I can't do that.

Aaron:

If I'm looking in someone's eyes, then you apply that to a classroom setting and it's like well for students kind of dawdling or doodling and like just drawing whilst they're listening and the academics like why aren't you paying attention?

Aaron:

It's like I am paying attention but I need to kind of channel my adhd energy. My energy is always moving, so it's either going to be moving in my head and I'm going to be anxious, or like overthinking or not be able to process things. Or I can process things whilst my hands moving, or I'm chewing gum, for example, but like you know a lot of gum in a lab and like with adhd and I can't generalize this because not everybody's the same, but it's like we need people fidget I move. I've got a swizzle chair right now. I'm like my body's moving but I'm trying to keep my like torso still. So I'm like not being kind of rude to people because you're supposed to kind of stand up straight and stay still and all these things when you communicate stuff and it's like that's not how everybody functions and it's just like there's so many societal kind of constructs and ways of doing things that are formal and just not how everybody works and it's just like things need to change and things need to be more adaptable and flexible and would.

Will:

Would you sort of find that like? I think the biggest thing that I always talk about is that a lot of these changes would actually be quite simple changes. Would you say that as well?

Aaron:

100 like, say, for example, like providing students lecture recordings ahead of time, like some courses are fully online, so it's like you just get lecture recordings and they're not live, uh. But in some cases it's like you don't get access to lecture recordings, like a week before or two weeks before. Like imagine if you uh were trying to get ahead of your course two weeks before you started the course, but you don't have access to the lecture recordings.

Will:

So you can't fully understand, like what you're getting yourself into, because it's all new information, hey, but at least if you're getting access to it early, you're like, ah, now I know I remember listening to that and I've got chronic fatigue andBS.

Aaron:

So it's like every day I wake up is a whole, completely new day to me.

Aaron:

I might have energy, I might feel sick, I might have brain fog. It's like I might feel great and if I feel great I'm going to do as much as I can in that time because I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. So it's like if I can't prepare myself because the academic or the educator hasn't given me access to things before in, like I need them, like say, two weeks before example, that might be pushing it for some academics, but if you've got lecture recordings that are a year old, you can give students access to that. And I know some academics who do give access to those last year recordings but they put under red under the recording. It's like disclaimer, this is last year's recording.

Aaron:

I can't say verbatim that this is all going to be the same information, but it'll give you a heads up of what may be in the course. So it's like I will give you access to a lecture recording or the slides in real time once I've got them, but like I don't have them right now. This is the best that give you that can help students so much, and it's just like there's so many things like sorry, have you seen?

Will:

have you seen that new I think google created it where you can put like all your um study notes, for example, into this app and then it turns it into a podcast.

Aaron:

I haven't seen the podcast thing. Ai is off its head right now.

Will:

Yeah, totally.

Aaron:

It's like I say Chachapiti is like my second brain. I honestly like I don't know how I functioned at university in life without it beforehand. So it's just like I yeah, it's insane I use it for everything. Um, it's such a game changer, like I went to a microsoft hackathon like maybe two weeks ago, and one of the people from the accessibility team they were like you can scan in. I can't remember what meeting it was. It might be Zoom, it might be Teams, whatever. Like a QR code that'll give you like the closed captions in the language that is your first language.

Aaron:

Oh, wow that's pretty cool and I'm just like, holy fucking shit, this is so cool and this is so like needed because there's a lot of international students who don't have english as their first language and they come to, they should have a basis, basic knowledge of english understanding. A lot of students do, some don't, and if a student a master's student, for example, in an art design course I'm using this as a like a real life example it's like master students taking an art and design course give an assessment brief, they don't know how to understand it, so they're not getting the marks they want because they don't understand what's being asked of them. Let's say, like you've got that qr code that could translate things for them, or you've got like an assessment brief which you like. Just upload the file if you've got chat gpt premium and then just say translate this into Mandarin, translate this into Cantonese, whatever language they speak.

Aaron:

It's like that's just accessible education totally a form of UDL, I'd say, because if an academic can show a student like that's what they can do, to use this and change this into their format, like that's giving students options which would then like kind of lessen the accommodations the student may need. It's not going to get rid of them, but it's definitely going to help the system and it's going to help the educator, but it's yeah, it blows my mind like how the education system was before and it does give me hope because things are changing and it's these conversations we're having now that are going to make a difference and help students advocate for themselves more and help academics who are potentially listening to like show more interested uh, interest in like udl and like invest in learning and understanding that students need different formats and different like ways of, because do you know what I've I was talking to someone especially about with like so like, especially with the academics is that like the harder.

Will:

The big problem with them is is that they don't have teaching backgrounds. They come from like, whatever it is, and these are some of the problems that we're facing because they don't have that teaching experience.

Aaron:

Like. So within academia you've got like I think usually it's 60-40. You might be like like 60 researcher, 40 academic, or you might be like 60 academic, 40 research, or you might be 80 academic, 20 research, or you might be full academic or full research. It's like there's so many variations of, like the type of academic you have. And if you're more education focused, you're going to have that basic understanding. Hopefully you're going to have that basic understanding. If you're more education focused, you're going to have that basic understanding. Hopefully you're going to have that basic understanding.

Aaron:

If you're more research focused, like you don't have all that. You didn't study education as a background. Or you may take a few courses to get through your phd to become a professor or something like that or a lecturer, but it's like you don't have those foundational skills some universities have. Like I think we've got the fault program which teaches academics, kind of basic, accessible and inclusive kind of ways of teaching. Um, it needs to be probably mandatory. But then I kind of second guess myself when I say that, because something that's mandatory it's like it's just going to go in one ear and out the other.

Aaron:

If it's like you're told they have to do this and they're not interested. So it's like oh, I'm going to say something before. What were we speaking about?

Will:

We were talking about the academics in one ear, out the other. It shouldn't be mandatory.

Aaron:

Another. So I'm actually a neurodiversity consultant for my school, which is the School of, like, Biotechnology and Biotechnological and Biomolecular Sciences. My major's Molecular Biology, and within my school of BABS I'm going to call it for short I'm a neurodiversity consultant. So I'm auditing a course in terms of its accessibility and we have, like, say, 24 different lectures within one course, which is 10 weeks, and then you've got like eight different lecturers giving those lectures and each lecture is structured differently. The layout's different. There should be standard things which UDL kind of emphasises, so like, say, each lecture should have a set of lecture slides, should have learning outcomes, so a student knows, like, what they should be focusing on and those learning outcomes should be linked to the learning like slides.

Will:

But that's so. It's sort of like a training plan, like a teaching plan, correct. So you know you'll be starting with this. It then goes into this. It then goes into this, correct?

Aaron:

What I'm doing is I'm mainly focusing on, like, the guest lecturers who come in and majority of the time they're not getting paid, they're experts, industry, they have no education, potentially I can't speak for all of them even no education experience or like minimal education experience. So some of them, for example, have like 90 slides for an hour where, like I'd say, the standard would be, standard would be 30 or 40 would be ideal, because that's like two minutes on each slide. If you've got 90 slides divided by, it'll be like 50 or 55 minutes, because you start a lecture at like five past, not on the dot. So it's like, say, 55 minutes, like 90 divided by 55, that's like less than a minute of slide. And it's like, if you've got a whole slide of information, that's just text. It's like Information overload.

Aaron:

I've seen a slide that's literally a full black background. It's like full of text. There's text at the start that's like highlighted in red, the second one's highlighted in yellow and the second one's highlighted in purple, and I'm just like if a student didn't have the lecture, kind of speaking towards this, how do they know where to start and what's the important information?

Aaron:

because everything is it's like that's not accessible and that's very overwhelming for any student, let alone a neurodivergent one. So it's like that's not accessible and that's very overwhelming for any student, let alone a neurodivergent one. So it's like my. What I'm trying to do is create like a or, within the limited time that I've been given for this uh role, it's like create like a set of must have guidelines that guest lecturers or like non-education focused academics can use, to say like I should have xyz in this order potentially, if it's not on the same order, at least you've got them in any way you want.

Aaron:

But like and I'm trying to create like a, an empty shell of like have a title slide, have this slide, have that. So I'll have like a set of written guidelines and then I'll have like an empty shell which, like they should know that like you've got the visual version and then you've got like the written version of like a standard thing that you should have, because universities don't have this. Some might, we might have it within UNSW, but within our school of Babs we don't have that. And like we're trying to lead the way in accessibility, don't have that, and like we're trying to lead the way in the accessibility way. So it's like it's these things that if you're using universal to learn, for learning more, and academics had more of an understanding and it was embedded in the university and accessibility and inclusion were the foundations of everything that happens in a university, which it it should, and I strongly stand by that. It's like things would be so much different.

Will:

Yeah, totally, totally. Actually, that actually works well into the next question here. So future-proofing education, so the role of UDL in emerging learning environments. So I think that rolls in perfectly. So you know, if we have standards or procedures in place, it should make it easier for everyone, correct?

Aaron:

It should. I think this is where AI comes back into the picture, because I think things like ChatterBT are game changers, as I said before, because if you're in a lecture and you can't ask your lecturer a question because there's no time, or there's questions at the end, or you've got anxiety and you can't ask the question because you literally can't, you've got anxiety. It's debilitating you. You don't have the confidence to either speak it out aloud, which 99 of the students don't have their cameras on, and they don't speak, they just their cameras off. They may put questions in the chat. It's like if a student doesn't have the confidence even to put a question in the chat, it's like, uh, like that's an issue, and I think so sorry.

Will:

So a majority of the lectures are all done online these days. Is that correct?

Aaron:

lectures predominantly yes, it varies from university to university like tutorials, lectures might be recorded or they might be live recorded or in person. Labs within my school have they're in person and you can't do them online. They are trying to look at like ways of having like AI or virtual VR simulation kind of things for labs to pass, because you have to do certain experiments and stuff and learn certain techniques and stuff like that. But, um, coming back to ai, it's like you've got a 24 7 real-time feedback tutor at your fingertips, like that, when you've got ai in your pocket, in your on your mobile, on your mac, on your pc, whatever.

Aaron:

And you've got like personalized learning, because let's say, if an academic uses jargon, you can literally and uh, some universities don't like you're doing this, um, but you can screenshot a lecture slide, for example, and then put that in there and say simplify this for me, use an analogy to make this more simpler for me to understand. Because let's say, if you've never done a biology course before and you have no biology foundation, it's like you need a foundation to learn and build from. So if you can use an analogy, that's in a non-biological terms and then you can translate that to a biological terms and then you can start the foundation. You're going to learn and understand things better. But if the lecture is not speaking in the language that you understand like biology jargon, for example, and each science kind of has different jargon, different words for the same thing, which, which is so confusing, and it's like if AI can translate that or break it down, simplify it, give you like flashcards, it can do everything you need it to. I think now.

Will:

But Uni's frowned against that.

Aaron:

They for note-taking and stuff. I think it's fine For like, adding in a lecture slide to a thing like chat tpt. They don't like because of the ip issues, because it's okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see so like they're really strict on that stuff.

Aaron:

Um, we do have access to microsoft co-pilot, the basic version at usw, which is like a closed system, so like once you ask you the question, it orders to because it's not saved, which is saving the ip things. Um, but like you can still say, like you could put like your own made lecture note document into chattopiti and say I need to create a set of 30 exam style advanced multiple choice questions for me to pre-practice my exam, like as practice questions for my notes. Make sure you hit like certain points. Give me a rationale behind why the answer is the answer and then why the other choices you've given me aren't right, so I can learn as much as I can before I take this exam.

Aaron:

You don't get that in from an academic like it's okay, yeah students can do to use ai to their advantage create a set of questions, create flashcards have you found that helpful for you?

Aaron:

100 like I, if, even if I've got questions that I've generated myself, I'm like what questions have I missed here that may be asked in a final exam? And majority of the time it picks up something that you're like I actually didn't think about that and it's just like it's just, it's just opening up the never-ending possibilities of like what type of question could be asked in an exam. Because, like, majority of the time it's something that's so like niche from what's been said or it's like something little has been said and they've gone on a tangent that's not kind of course related or in the material, but like they're kind of they've integrated it somehow and that question just throws students off. But if AI can give them that like foresight or that insight into like what potentially might be asked, it's like it's so valuable.

Will:

Yeah, yeah, that's crazy man, that's crazy. But we are getting close to the end now, so building inclusive universities. What's the intersection of policy, policy practice and culture?

Aaron:

as I said before, like policies, universities, any education system, needs to have. I find, like I feel very strongly that like accessibility and inclusion need to be like the underpinning of everything that's been done past and future. Like we have AI projects going at the moment at UNSW that like like I sit in there like demo kind of things, where they're like showcasing it for the first time, their beta versions, and I'm like have you looked at the accessibility aspects of any of this? And they're like they're not even thinking about it. I'm just like, as an accessibility consultant or like specialist, I'd say, because I know a lot about it. It's like, why haven't you looked at this yet? It's like, just because you're like centralising resources from a university into one space, it's like how do you know that the student knows how to go through that process in the first place? Like, like, how do you know that a student knows how to go through that process in the first place? Like, how do you know that process is accessible to the student? Just because you're guiding them there doesn't mean they're not going to know how to use it.

Aaron:

It's like accessibility and inclusion needs to be the foundation of everything that's been done and is that's being done and is doing has been done like is happening currently.

Aaron:

Because when that is is it's like universities are always going on about uh, students, well-being and belonging, but it's like how can you belong if an environment isn't inclusive to your identity and how you process and navigate and function in life, and how can you feel like you belong if things aren't accessible to you in the first place?

Aaron:

It's like accessibility and inclusion when they're done right and udl is a very good starting point it's like they can create strong foundations that then funnel into these well-being and belonging things that the universities really prioritize and they put a lot of money for. But I don't think they're doing them well enough, because the accessibility and inclusion is the, it's the underpinning, and they're not at that. They're just looking at it through a neurotypical, more professional lens and it's like well, you need students a part of this. You need them, the lower ses students, you need these disability students. You need the students who are really struggling and who really don't have that sense of belonging yet at university because they don't know how to access things, for example. You need them a part of the conversation. So I think you need lived experience and you need accessibility and inclusion as the foundations of things.

Will:

Yeah.

Aaron:

In any part of society. I think really, yeah, I'm a strong advocate for that.

Will:

No, no, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good and it's true. I think that you know. So I go to a lot of like tech pitch nights and stuff like that and people are talking. I tell you what man man, it feels like everyone's trying to start a hr program, like everyone I know is trying to build a hr program. Right, and a lot of the time they're not even thinking about, like you know, accessibility and all of that. It's like, oh you know, our program will do of that. It's like, oh, you know, our program will do this, and if it shows this, that means that the person's not performing.

Will:

And I'm like well, hang on, maybe that means that the person's struggling with something. Have you looked at it from that perspective before? You know so little things like that there, but pretty crazy stuff. But look, aaron, thank you so much for coming on today. We've pretty much gotten to the end there today. You know, if someone wants to connect with you and the work that you're doing, what's the best place to check you out at.

Aaron:

As I said before, my name's Aaron St James. I think it was on the screen before, so that's like oh yeah it is A-A-R.

Will:

Hang on, I'll put it onto the um. I'll put it um up on the um screen here. Hang on, mate, uh, paste, and then I'll add it. There we go. Do you want to spell it out for the people listening?

Aaron:

yep. So, uh, double a r o n s a I n t hyphen j m e s. So you can find me on linkedin. You can find me on social media, uh, instagram and facebook.

Aaron:

Um, I've also got a link tree because I provide, like, consultancy services and yeah, uh, if you can't find me, reach out to will, and we'll just pass on my details yeah, no, that's no problem like, yeah, I've got a lot on my plate, but if you've got any questions or you need any advice, definitely just hit me up, because I'm so passionate about changing education, higher education in particular, and making systems more functional and more accessible for everyone, because when you use UDL, it's like it caters for everyone, not the majority, and it's like that's how society and things should be.

Will:

So, yeah, Cool, cool, cool, Awesome man. Well, look, thanks so much for coming on Awesome chat there.

Aaron:

Like always, you got much planned for over the Christmas period mate, my family's coming from Tassie actually, so I'm going to have a bit of time off and spend it with them, so that's going to be really nice.

Will:

Oh well, will you still be in Sydney?

Aaron:

Yeah, I'll still be in Sydney.

Will:

Oh, nice man, so you won't be Whereabouts, do you live again?

Aaron:

St Peter's.

Will:

St Peter's, so you won't be hanging around St Peter's.

Aaron:

I'm actually going to be on the Central Coast, but I will be oh you're going up there. Yeah, my sister's friends live there, so we're going to be staying at their place and probably at the beach. Hopefully it's a hot summer like last year, was it? I think it was hot last year, I don't know what are you?

Will:

doing. Yeah, I think it was oh man, oh, nothing much on Christmas, but I think my sister and Lauren, a new boyfriend from Ireland, are coming down to Sydney for a few days. So I was going to say if you were free we would have come and caught up with you, but I think you might be a bit busy, my friend well, hit me up anyway and I'll see if I can make some time, because I'd love to yeah totally, man, totally awesome, man, awesome.

Will:

But thank, look, thank you so much for coming on today. It's always a pleasure when we're chatting, definitely a topic that I want to talk more about in the future. So I say, this is only the beginning, but look for all of our listeners who already haven't done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. My name's Will, and this is NeuroDivergent Mates. Till next time, you.