Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
The Importance of Neurodivergent Teachers - Katie Fleet
🎙️ Next on Neurodivergent Mates: The Importance of Neurodivergent Teachers with Katie Fleet 🎙️
In this episode, we’re joined by Katie Fleet, a passionate educator and advocate for neurodivergent teachers. We’ll dive into her journey as a neurodivergent teacher, exploring the challenges, strengths, and impact that neurodivergent educators bring to the classroom.
Katie will share insights on how neurodivergent teachers can drive meaningful change, why all educators need neurodiversity training, and what parents and schools should know about embracing neurodivergent educators. Plus, she’ll offer valuable advice for fellow neurodivergent teachers navigating the profession.
Tune in to hear Katie’s story and discover how neurodivergent teachers are shaping the future of education! 🎧✨
Questions asked during the podcast:
• Share a bit about yourself
• Tell us about your work
• What’s it like being a neurodivergent teacher?
• How can neurodivergent teachers create change?
• Why do all teachers need neurodiversity training?
• What should parents and schools know about neurodivergent teachers?
• Advice for other neurodivergent teachers?
• Where can people find your work?
Brought to you by Neurodiversity Academy
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You're listening to Neurodivergent Mates. Hello, Do we have? No, it's working. Can you hear me? Okay, Katie? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can All right, sweet, oh my God, oh my God, sorry, everyone. So if you're only just listening to this now, we came in live probably about five minutes ago. There was all this terrible reverb going on. Five minutes ago, there was all this terrible reverb going on. I have no idea what was going on, so we just canceled the whole thing, had to redo a new um link and all of this stuff, and we're here now. So I apologize for anyone who was listening beforehand and um, you had to listen to all of that because it would have sounded like ripe garbage. But look, welcome to Neurodivergent Mates. It's 2025. We're on our fourth season. So awesome stuff. But I tell you what not as awesome as the guests we've got here today. Join with my awesome friend, katie Fleet, to talk to us about the importance of neurodivergent teachers. Katie, what's going on, my friend?
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me. I'm very excited oh well, you know what? I was really starting to stress for a bit there. I was really stressing, we got some good.
Speaker 1:It sounded like a Daft Punk, apparently a remix. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally so, oh my God, oh my God. So, yeah, you know what? There's nothing worse than you know, especially doing a podcast and being a podcast host, especially when you're going live and things like that just happen out of the blue that you least expect it. And then, yeah, you've just got some issues and you have no idea what's going on. But look, we're here now, that's the main thing. And, um, we're ready to rock and roll, you know. But, um, look what, what's been, what's been happening with you so far? How was your christmas?
Speaker 2:oh, christmas was good, as we were just talking about off air and I'm about eight months pregnant, so just uh, thriving and surviving good job, good job.
Speaker 1:The thriving and surviving will probably kick in after the nine months correct. That will just be normal life, I'm assuming well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It'd be interesting to see how motherhood as someone with ADHD and dyslexia goes. But I'm excited. I think it will be lots of fun and maybe some challenges.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you'll be a natural. My friend, I'm sure you'll be a natural. Will the kid be born holding a kite surfing? Because you're a big kite surfer, correct?
Speaker 2:I love kite surfing. Yeah, she'll be in the water from day one, I think just yeah yeah, yeah yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:But look, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for being so patient with all those technical difficulties before. Like I said, that's not a normal thing within the podcast here, but, um, but awesome stuff. But look, before we get started, I will just do a little bit of housekeeping for any new listeners out there. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. We're available on tiktok, or maybe not tiktok, if you're in the united states, right, I think.
Speaker 1:I think I heard some people say that, um, it's now back up in the united states, so, um, interesting time. So if you're in the united states, I apologize, you won't be able to watch us there, but maybe you will, who knows? Um also to our available on facebook, instagram, x twitch, youtube and linkedin and, too, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. And please also go to neurodiversityacademycom to check out all the work that we're doing there. Another big thing, another important thing about having Katie on today she's one of our advisory board members, so you might be able to advise me on some things I'm doing wrong with the podcast. What do you reckon, katie?
Speaker 2:No, I think you're smashing it. But, very important, go to that address because Will's constantly updating, uploading and there's some fantastic resources there which I think are going to help a lot.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, no, no, no, there is, so please check it out, and we've also got some really big things on the horizon too. So, you know, if you can sign up, it gives you a really good chance to sort of keep up to date with what we're going over as well. Now also, too, just a little bit of a warning for maybe some listeners Some of the discussions may be triggering, so if you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Do you know what some of the funny stuff about? Well, not funny stuff, but like. There's been a few times where I've read that and I'm like, well, actually, the person we do have on is actually a doctor.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say now, not a doctor Will, so no responsibility between the two of us. But I think, yeah, very important things to do, very true, very true.
Speaker 1:It's definitely good to cover that type of stuff. So also, too, if you've got any questions, please put that you know. If you're listening to us on whatever social media platform you are while we're going live, please just shoot it out in the comments there. Ask any questions you might have, maybe share some of your experience if you've got some. That would be really cool as well. So, katie, you ready to rock and roll, my friend? I'm ready, let's's go. You're born ready, right, all right, so we might just start with the normal one. Look, you know, let's hear a little bit about yourself. You know what? Who who is? Who is katie fleet?
Speaker 2:I'm still working it out, but I'll give you the uh. So my name is katie. I'm obviously a POM English originally and then I've moved to Australia for, you know, to explore new things and meet people like Will, which I'm very, very grateful for and I have been a trained teacher for probably about 12 years 15 years seems to have flown by. I was diagnosed dyslexic when I was seven years old and I only received my ADHD diagnosis last year, which has been a really interesting journey for me but has definitely filled in some of the gaps and, you know, made me realize why dyslexia wasn't kind of lining up for me. And yeah, I now work for Autism Spectrum Australia. I do some work with you. I still work on school boards in the UK and, as you sort of introed, my big passionate area is supporting neurodivergent teachers and students in our schools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, I think it's definitely an important thing and, you know, I think the interesting thing and we'll cover this more during the podcast and like I think when you and I first sat down and you know you shared a lot of like your experience as a neurodivergent teacher it was actually interesting to hear about some of the stuff that you've come up against while doing that, and you know some of the good, maybe some of the really negative as well, which really blew my mind. But we will listen to a little bit more about that in a sec. But look, to tell you the truth, I would love to like hear a little bit like you do some work for Aspect. You know I'd love to, you know, hear a little bit more about, especially, the work you're doing in the neurodiversity space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so with Aspect I'm the National Evaluation Manager in Education, so I look at how we measure student outcomes both in the wellbeing space but also academically, and that's a really interesting space because it's highly under-researched and have some amazing research colleagues like Vicky Gibbs I'm sure people know about that, about her and her work and Chris Edwards and individuals like that. I'm all work in action research so ongoing in schools, supporting teachers. The other thing I guess I haven't mentioned is I also work casually at UTS, so University of Technology Sydney and Torrance University, teaching students and that's probably a big thing that we'll get into today is how do we support and develop both neurotypical teachers to understand the challenges in classrooms, but also how do we attract more neurodivergent teachers and how do we support them? Also, how do we attract more neurodivergent teachers and how do we support them? Because at present training systems for uh, training teachers who are neurodivergent are pretty.
Speaker 1:They're not great and that's not bagging out the institutions, that's more on, you know how the requirements to become a teacher are written yeah, no, interesting, sorry, out of curiosity, I was just thinking right like you were talking about, especially with, uh, the work that you do with aspect, is that, um, you're evaluating, um student outcomes, probably their experiences, all of that. How do you go about that, especially like you were saying, um, there's very limited research on that. How, how do you make decisions on certain things when the research just isn't there to back it? Are you sort of like guessing, or is there some method in?
Speaker 2:place? No, no, I think it's a really interesting question. It's still something we're at the very early stages of. Ultimately it is, you know, measuring growth within education is down to the student themselves. So it's that real person-centered approach.
Speaker 2:And I like to think of myself, as you know, how did I feel growing up? So, um, when I was assessed for reading as a dyslexic, oh my gosh, like I didn't hit any of the national benchmarks, any of the outcomes, I was always the labelled failing, um. So it's really important we move away from those labels where we pigeonhole children against the national curriculum and instead we look at it, um, we break it down, we chunk it and we're looking for just little pockets of growth. They can be anything in any area and we're looking for just little pockets of growth. They can be anything in any area and we celebrate those and we identify the areas where they really need support. But I hope we're moving away from the days where we look at children as failing if they are not meeting you know, each milestone in every key learning area, exactly when the government tells us we should be.
Speaker 1:So if I think back to when I was in school, I was in grade 12 and I I my reading is so much better now compared to and I don't know how that sort of happened because, um, I don't spend heaps of time reading, but my reading is just so much better now than what it was in school. But I remember them saying like, oh, you're reading at a grade 5 level and when I was in grade 12, if that makes sense, so are you sort of saying that you don't have that type of stuff? You wouldn't say, hey, jimmy, so you're actually reading at this level. Come on, you need to get better there type of thing. How does that process look? Because you say you reward people, rather than sort of say what I just said there. Because I can tell you right now, being told when I was in grade 12 that I was reading at a grade 5 level. That didn't help me to go. Geez, I better read better because I'm at a grade five level. That just made me go. Yes, it's confirmed, I am a failure.
Speaker 2:I should really give up if that makes sense, and that's a very common thing we see. So I mean we're moving away, I hope, from this model of you. Know we've got to hit these outcomes and the reason Will you probably read much better now is because you now read stuff that interests you.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you're dead right.
Speaker 2:That is one of the biggest issues in teaching is we have something called differentiation where we can change the curriculum a bit to suit individuals. But if your HSC English text is to kill a mockingbird I mean english text is to kill a mockingbird I mean mine was to kill a mockingbird I can't say. I really related to the southern states of america and you know, I can't even remember what it's about.
Speaker 2:It's about justice, I think for individuals in southern states and probably a race argument. So of course, I'm not going to read it very well because I don't know the vocabulary, I've never been exposed to it, I'm not interested in it. So what we're looking at when we talk about assessing outcomes is that we're giving. It starts from the, the experience and the opportunities we give children in the class to engage with something they enjoy and interest, and a lot of people associate that with autism. It's not just autism, all everyone.
Speaker 2:You don't have to be neurodivergent to want to read things and we talk about reading diets. So you know, growing up I love magazines and I love to, you know, read books about horses because I loved horses and sailing. So for me, that's what got my vocabulary ticking, etc. That's what got my vocabulary ticking, et cetera. But the way our curriculum is developed at the minute, if you have the further you go up, the more the texts are restricted, and that's where the issues can really come, because are we actually assessing your knowledge or are we just assessing your engagement in a piece that we've given you?
Speaker 1:that you don't really you know, get to yeah, yeah, I'm just trying to think back to what I used to like, reading back that. You know what I think. So this might sound weird. I would enjoy reading little articles that stood out to me in the paper. Do you know what I mean? I might see something can be like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:And then, but I could never read a full, like what do you call it? Like a journal article, whatever it's called? What do they call it when they write like a piece, a piece in the paper, right, but I would read enough to just comprehend what it was about. And then I could be like I would see the picture. I could never really read ones that didn't have a picture. If there was some interesting picture there, I would then read a little bit about it and go, oh, so that's what it's all about. Oh, interesting, you know. But I could only read to, and even now I would only read to a certain amount to get like the gist of it. Or I'll read the heading. So say, if there's like 10 things to to make you um, I don't know exercise better, I'll just read the headings and be like, oh, okay, yeah, easy, you know just little things like that I think you know, I think there's so many things that, in a good way, with technology changing, we have the options and I this is where I'm really interested.
Speaker 2:I think craig smith was on earlier, a colleague of mine, his big area is ai and you know using ai positively and we were in a chat the other day about it's actually really exciting because you will, you and I would see if you and I sent each other a five-page email we'd probably put into chat gpt and say what is will trying to tell me please yeah, whereas we would get fatigued, like five years ago.
Speaker 2:I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to spend two hours reading this, writing down what will needs and then, you know, the adhd procrastination would kick in. Then I might off put it. So there's some really positive things coming through, I, I think, to supporters, but at the same time you see universities, especially, or the tertiary sector, saying you can't use AI because it's cheating. So the reason I'm probably not giving you a clear answer on assessment and all that is that we're in a really transient change, really transient change and I think it's exciting. But we also need to if we stop using things to help neurodivergent people. Again, that's another barrier. Another, you know, the equity is still sliding, sliding, sliding. So when we think about assessment, whether it's in schools, in universities, etc. We really need to think about is it directed so that people are interested? Are people engaged and do they have everything they need to learn the best they possibly can?
Speaker 1:now interesting. So out of curiosity, right? So you know my email I sent to yourself today, right?
Speaker 2:no, that was because I was engaged in it. I you know I was interested. I read it and I guess we've spoken about this before. My father is dyslexic as well. We both have it. He failed all of his hsc the first time around and then, you know, 10 years later he gets a phd and he's written you know a hundred thousand words about mud, rock and petroleum. I cannot think of anything more boring.
Speaker 2:But to him he could do that because he was so interested in it yeah so that's a prime example of and a lot of people, I think, who are neurodivergent. If you have a terrible experience at school, you may not go on to study, and if you don't have a role model, you may may not go and study, but you do find a lot of neurodivergent people in academia with their PhDs because they finally got to do something they love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is cool. That is cool. That is interesting too, Because the reason why I brought up that email was I had originally wrote it with just chucking all my ideas out there and it sounded so. If you were to like read it without like um, before I put it in chat gpt, you'd be like what the hell's will on about? But I put it in there and I just said chat gpt, can you make this more simple and easier to understand? Like originally there wasn't like the headings. You know how I had the headings and that in that email those weren't originally there and all that. But what I'm sort of getting at is that that's the beauty of how technology is helping us to get a better understanding of how to maybe present this to certain types of people 100% and there's so many things you know we're talking about the high-end tech part of teaching and strategies, even things like mind map or like visual cues.
Speaker 2:I I find them really. I love a mind map. I, you know, and people look at me the other day actually I did one with colleagues in a planning session and I stood back and it was literally just. It looked like someone who tried to draw a hurricane or like a twist, oh really just everywhere one of them said I think we're gonna. They're neurotypical. I think we might have to redraw this, just so the rest of us can understand. I'll take my copy, you do you?
Speaker 1:but you probably understood it. Perfect, right, oh I loved it.
Speaker 2:I knew exactly what I was going to do. I've got my project planned for 2025. I am clear, but they had to go away and just get it in an order.
Speaker 1:Sorry, just this is an unrelated topic, but I had to laugh when you told me this has your father been asked to assist in any births on planes recently?
Speaker 2:Have I never told you. Yeah, he gets lost, Sorry sorry.
Speaker 1:So for all of our listeners. Right, we were talking about how like doctors get sorry. Can you just hang on? My cat, I think, is meowing here. I don't know what she's doing. I think she might be stuck outside. Give me two secs, hang on, no worries. What are you doing? Sorry, my cat is like right here, meadow. She's like meowing. I don't know what's wrong with her. Off, you go. Anyway, sorry about that everyone. Um, my, my cat has just come to um. Come on, do you want to come up?
Speaker 2:is she a regular guest of the podcast?
Speaker 1:well, no, she's never been a guest of the podcast well, no, she's never been a guest of the podcast.
Speaker 2:Here she is what's wrong.
Speaker 1:What's wrong, you know she's. She's usually pretty good. I've never heard her meowing so much, but, uh, sorry so for all of our guests. So we were talking one time about, like you know, all these doctors. You may not even be a medical um doctor, but you still present on your plane ticket that you're a doctor, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you can now choose. So he does take it off, because he has been bing-bonged before. Yeah yeah. I'm a doctor of rock, so if this lady's having a baby, I really don't think I'm going to be much help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just thought that was hilarious when you told me that I'm like I wonder what the look on the um air host that would be like. Oh yeah, true, true, anyway. Everyone. That's just us sidetracking on um adhd minds right there. But look, let's move into this a little bit more. So what's it like being a neurodivergent teacher? Out of curiosity.
Speaker 2:When you sent that question through. It really got me thinking. So I've obviously told you about the experience I had my first year of teaching in the UK. I worked at a very posh private school and I was very careful not to say anything. And then one day it came out I don't know how it came out and the parents several of the parents made complaints because they didn't want you know they were paying I don't know £20,000 a year for their kids to be educated correctly and they had this dyslexic teacher who was, you know, educating and teaching their children English, which they couldn't get over. You know, a dyslexic teaching English and it's not my favourite subject to teach. However, over the years since then I've really got into it and I love it.
Speaker 2:So I think, from a bias point of view and I'll talk more to you about this later, about how I think we feel we're perceived as neurodivergent teachers and that was really quite challenging. It really nearly led me, drove me, out the profession, that experience. Then I went to teach um, our sort of kindy kids in year one in a public school and I loved it and that was right up my alley because it was very ADHD, very. You know. Grab some lego, let's play music, let's you know. It was that whirlwind. And I do think being a neurodivergent teacher really depends on what your diagnosis is or your neurological condition, as to what structure you like, what environments you you like. But I think we all share one thing, which is that burnout we burn out much faster than a neurotypical teacher. The stimulation imagine if you were in an office with 30 people talking at you all day, every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's true, the stimulation is insane.
Speaker 2:My partner is a teacher, he's neurotypical and he comes home and he spends about an hour just sat in silence. And I get it, because there were days where I would, just, you know, wouldn't go out, I'd spend the whole weekend at home. And you know me, I'm very chatty and very bubbly, but the burnout is incredible. Just from the sensory overload is a lot.
Speaker 1:Out of curiosity, what was your favorite grade to teach like? What grades have you taught and do you so? What's like the preschool stuff, like that cool, or did you prefer for high schools or?
Speaker 2:it's a good question. So I've taught um year five, year six, so grade five uh, I get confused. New south wales were year five, year six, so grade five uh, I get confused. New South Wales were year five, year six, taught kindy. I've taught year one, year two, and then when I went to work in a specialist school I taught um teenagers with intellectual disabilities.
Speaker 2:Um, I probably I really like them because it, you know, you kind of were preparing them for life and you could have those kind of conversations. But I do love kinder, year one, just because it's absolute chaos and it's also the stuff that comes out of their mouths is amazing, like just things. You're like, wow. I remember a kid we made a role play area and their homework was they had to go, it was for the rainforest. They had to go away, make a rainforest creature and bring it in on Monday. And they're coming up and they're showing me and we've got, you know, the pythons and the pumas and all that. Probably I don't see I'm saying things. I'm still not sure if they're meant to be in there, but whatever. And then this one girl brought God. She'd made God and I was like all and you know, and she just went, miss Fleet, god is everywhere, and I was like I can't even argue with that.
Speaker 1:What did God look like?
Speaker 2:out of curiosity, I mean toilet roll with some wings and a halo. Oh, okay. I love that. You know their argument is so well. You know the rationale is so clever. And who am I to say that that is not the right thing? Yeah yeah. So yeah, I did love. I just love their little minds and where they're at and what they think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like creativity would be pretty cool too. Like wow, I never really thought about that yeah, exactly, they just um, I don't.
Speaker 2:I think all kids can be really interesting. I probably don't quite like the when we get to that teenager hormonal level. That's not really me. Uh, I more embrace the chaos if I want to say, okay, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think high school would be very challenging. You know, if I think back to when I was young, I was, you know, and I think it was because, like, especially during primary school, I had built up such a you know, I was one of those kids who would speak back and, you know, swear at the teacher and stuff like that but I think it was more because, not because I was a bad person, but there had been so many years where teachers had treated me like absolute crap, that, but some of them were great where others were just didn't give me the time or effort.
Speaker 2:So I just built up this like, yeah, this attitude type of thing, if that makes sense yeah, and I think that is probably an indication of a teacher is, you know, not loving the profession, whilst you're always gonna prefer some students over the other. I've never got to the point where I'm like I really hate that kid, like you know, and I think once you get there, you're in, you're in a danger zone, because why is a kid acting like that? Probably will, because you've spent so many years having to mask and being told you're a failure because you didn't meet expectations, the curriculum, etc. So of course you're going to be a bit gobby and kind of have a poorer experience so it's on us as professionals to understand that.
Speaker 2:You know, I think it's really important and I like the idea of there's something called team teaching, which is a bit of a luxury, but it's where you might teach a class you know half a week and then your other teacher comes in, so it stops you having that reaction to this kid. That's really winding you up. She finds someone who's kind of got the opposite love and you're like cool, let's do this.
Speaker 1:like freddie is really irritating me today, and someone will be like I love freddie, I'm gonna go in with the sarcasm and I'm gonna yeah, and, and it was actually interesting because I was speaking to this lady the other day and she used to be an arts teacher at the school and she said by the end of it she had just, I think she'd been doing it for 20-something years.
Speaker 1:She was just burnt out by the end of it. But we were actually speaking about this topic, about, like you know, I feel that some of the teachers who really some of them just hate their job and have been there for years, can almost have a negative effect on that. You know, that negativity on their role, hating it, can almost have that effect on their students as well. Um, you know, I think I came across some teachers who were close to retirement. You know, they're not going to quit, go do another job for two years and then retire, they're going to, you know, ride it out type of thing. And you could sometimes see that with some teachers not all, some were really great, but others yeah, I definitely saw that in them.
Speaker 2:And I think you know we've got to be careful. I hate. You know teachers are a really curious breed because once you meet another you can be like I've been on beaches on holiday. You meet a teacher, I don't know from Canada and you're like, straight away, you're into it, you get each other. But every other profession has the same issues you know, they're bitter, they're burnt out there.
Speaker 2:So it's really important and that's something I'm beginning to understand. My ADHD is to recognize. It's on me to recognize when I'm burning out, when I need to step away. And yes, if you're nearing retirement, you might not have the luxury of changing jobs, but you can make you know there are ways of changing your approach to things or doing things differently. So I guess I just want to point that out. You know that it's. It's not all about um so we've got.
Speaker 1:We've got. Craig has come through with a really big um comment here I'll do my best to read this out.
Speaker 1:So he's wrote and, by the way, thanks he's craig for um for reaching out. You're a legend, my friend, so love katie fleet's comment on evaluating neurodivergent student educational process from an individualized standpoint, where standardized benchmarks are replaced by sensitive progress markers that measure growth in domain specific to the scope of the student. The quality of impact and requirements of this on a non-standardized metric are so valuable to consider. Thank you so much for sharing. Did I, did I do all right reading that out? I would?
Speaker 2:be nailed. That didn't I nailed that, I nailed that didn't I, and that's lovely because I know Craig and he's a teacher, so it's lovely to have that feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no no, no, it's always good when people reach out. So, craig, thank you so much for sharing that. But how can neurodivergent teachers create change? Because you know we've shared a little bit about what it was like being a neurodivergent student teacher. But how vital are these people to you know, creating this change that you know I suppose we've been longing for for such a long time in this industry.
Speaker 2:I think it's so important. You know we want representation of neurodivergent people across the board, but I think if there was one thing I'd pin my hat on is you know you and I will both had quite negative experiences at school. I'm sure a lot of our neurodivergent listeners did. If there was one argument for training neurodivergent teachers, it would be to have those role models, to have people that understand, to have people that can teach differently and it doesn't need to be. My idea of different would be if I walked into a year six class tomorrow, I'd take uh texters, large pieces of paper and we'd do mind maps, because I can guarantee that quite a lot of neurotypical teachers are not teaching that way and that's fine. They have their styles.
Speaker 2:But we need to ensure we know that 10 to 20 percent of the classroom are neurodivergent, whether they're diagnosed or not. So we need to ensure that students are exposed to different styles of learning and for neurodivergent kids that's great because they're going to see, you know, it's going to light a fire in them, hopefully. But also our neurotypical students need to understand there's different ways of you know doing things when they get into the job market. There's different ways of running a workshop, engaging with colleagues, and it's that general education about neurodiversity and how our brains work differently that breeds tolerance, that breeds excitement. I really hope you know a lot of my students at university don't leave my classroom thinking what a waste of an evening, because usually they've drawn 55 pictures and, you know, wrapped something and done stuff that they wouldn't do in another lecture. So I hope that that's why we need we need neurodivergent teachers.
Speaker 1:For all those reasons, and I think, like going back on your experience at that posh English school. I think this is where these parents and maybe even the school aren't realising that hang on, we've got. At least a certain percentage of these kids are in, could even be our kids, are in our classes here. They don't see the value what that brings either, which is probably a hard thing to swallow as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know those schools are very geared up and you know I'm a big advocate of people should choose the education structure they believe in and they believe their children fit um, but those schools are geared up towards you know you get the best grades, you go to the best universities and then you go into the job and you do, you know the best you can. Really you get to 35, none of that matters, does it as long as you're earning for yourself and ultimately it's all about mental health and your life and your well-being and satisfaction. We're very, I would say, neurodivergent.
Speaker 2:People are the most motivated, most ambitious group of individuals and I personally, my mental health has always suffered when I've been put in a box or I've been expected to reach. You know this outcome. I want to be free. I'm glad I've trained and passed exams, but it doesn't define me. I don't say, oh my gosh, I got an uh, you know, 85 ATAR, woo, that's not my label so, yeah, yeah, no, totally so.
Speaker 1:Just got another person who's commented, ryan nicholas. Um, this is a fantastic conversation. It's great to see representation on the teacher side of the conversation. No, thank you so much for um sharing that, ryan. We really appreciate your friend. Um, you know it's, it's actually really interesting.
Speaker 1:You say that right, because I was having a conversation with a friend of mine the other day and, um, you know, like, obviously the last couple of weeks or, you know, the beginning of the year, um, all of social media, the papers, all of that are all showing all the kids who got like the high ATARs and all of that type of stuff right, and I was talking to a friend of mine about it and we're like, you know, we see all these, especially the big private schools here in Sydney, they're sharing like, oh yeah, we've got this and we've got four students who got this right. Now, you know what we were thinking about. We were like, imagine what those kids life has been for, however many years. You know they're probably.
Speaker 1:And you know, a good friend of mine he went to one of those real posh sydney private schools here and he said that you know it's, it's, it is about those grades type of thing where you know your mental health comes second almost, and it's like we're seeing these kids who are getting these top marks. What have they sacrificed to get those marks? And how is that going to evolve in the future? You know, because we sometimes will see some of these kids. Some of them may go on to some really great stuff, but we may even see some of them get into university and then be like, oh, or even further, once they get into a job and be like, oh, my god, studying out of a book isn't what it's all about? People skills and all of these other important skills that you, you learn besides, getting great marks in school are just as important, if not more important, than getting good marks, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And I think you know, very sadly, if you look at the studies between suicide rates in youths and you know academic outcomes, it's very high, particularly in those Asian countries where that is the expectation, the culture, and you know it's heartbreaking to think that you would pin so much on. Obviously, everyone needs to be educated to a level where you know they can go out, they can be part of society, enjoy life, earn money to contribute to a great lifestyle, but it shouldn't be the be allall and end-all of life. In my mind, and I think, teachers, we get into it because we want to, you know, be part of growing society. That sounds very cheesy, but we're there to do a job, to, like you know, grow up with these people.
Speaker 2:Um, we're not there to pump all the facts then to be utterly miserable. Imagine if you work with someone and you just made them utterly miserable and then totally a horrible outcome. That's not why we get into it. We get into it to have fun and I would say, and I'm sure a lot of teachers would say, you learn as much from the kids. You know, I can still remember that kid and the role play corner. This is, you know, 12 years later and I still remember my amazing student teachers, my trainees that I've taught, that really got it, because it just it's so. You want to go to work with people that love what they do and you know want to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. So. Ryan's just come through with another thing, another big, big one here, so I'll do my best to read this out. I'm curious to hear what Katie thinks of the double empathy and the implications of that in the classroom. As a neurodivergent teacher, I get along quite well with my neurodivergent students, and there is just a gravity between the way I teach and the way they learn. However, neurotypical students don't always see the value of how I teach and sometimes refuse direct neurodiversity education. Did I read that out?
Speaker 2:all right, yeah and that makes so. I think there's two parts here. There's the double empathy part and then there's the bit about teaching. So double empathy is something I come up again and again and again with, where people really aren't understanding what I'm saying, and I guess I spoke to you about this before Christmas. You know I find it really hard as a dyslexic ADHD person to maybe talk to.
Speaker 2:I don't know an autistic person or someone with OCD, because I'm like, oh, we're all part of the same crew, like we'll get it, and actually we're not getting each other at all and it's really challenging. Um, but I kind of see it as if we want to move forwards as a movement, as a group. It's on me to try and rework that out. Go away, have another think about it. And in terms of students, I get this. It's really interesting. I taught a the last cohort.
Speaker 2:I taught of student teachers and a couple of them were not impressed with my teaching style really and said I'm going to a ex-private school in sydney and what you're teaching me is rubbish and I won't need this. And I was like cool, well, you have a great time if you don't think like was that in uni?
Speaker 1:where were they just out of uni?
Speaker 2:they were doing their masters of teaching course, not at one of the institutions I've mentioned, at another.
Speaker 1:okay, oh, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or to get in trouble, but you know they generally believed and that's fine. Do you know what I think the really cool thing about being a neurodivergent teacher is? I am trained to teach like a neurotypical teacher, but I also have a toolbox of neurodiverse things. I will use all my neurodiverse toolbox If I have to. I'm going to teach neurotypical style, but saying that you know you're going to favor one or the other and 90% of kids will get something out of the way you teach. So, yes, there might be a few that don't understand, but would you have left others behind? I feel like if you're in a school, 90% of the teacher is going to teach neurotypical style. So if I'm teaching neurodiverse, that's okay, because you know they're getting it in other lessons. They can apply those strategies.
Speaker 2:So I totally get it right, because I've come up and I've had colleagues who are like why are you doing that? What? Why are you using text as a lesson? They're 11 years old and I'm like everyone. The whole premise of education is play and have fun. I don't care you, and I went into a classroom tomorrow and I got out lego to teach something. You'd be in there, I know you would be like everyone gets to play like why, when, when will you?
Speaker 2:you know what age do you not want to go and play?
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you know what that is so interesting? Because I had this really awesome teacher in grade three and she was very hands-on and all that. And I noticed a lot of the other teachers just didn't get along with or didn't like her and I think it was because she had such a different way of doing things, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do think it is hard if you're in an environment where all the teachers and the kids are very neurotypical focus. This is how we teach and I had to jump around through a lot of settings to find the school that was right for me, the environment that was right for me, and I had to reach out to people on LinkedIn like you, like Craig, you know I had to really give myself permission and probably in my 20s in my teaching career I didn't. I fully thought I'm a teacher, I should be doing this and it's not working. Whereas double empathy just having a conversation with you or having a conversation with someone I work with and saying I don't understand why they didn't get that, you know can really unlock some more, but it's a hard concept and you may never be able to smash it 100, but surrounding yourself with people that get it is probably half the battle.
Speaker 1:I can't believe those teachers you're talking about were just like no, we're going to this school, we don't need to know this. That is so. It's almost like devaluing yourself because you're losing really important skills that could help someone it is.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, I think that's the culture of education in some settings. You know, it's a very traditional approach to education and what it leads to is people that probably don't think outside the box, don't, you know? Haven't been exposed that tolerance. It's a bit like you know the same with religion. If you go to a school that's all white christians. When you become prime minister and you go on a you know nice trip to I don't know islamabad, are you going to relate and do the best kind of relations you can? Probably not because you don't have a background. So you know, it's again up to the individual and the person to breed tolerance and have an open mind. And I think that's the really cool thing about neurodivergent teachers is we are like sponges, we just want to do everything, we want to have all the experiences, eat all the food oh my God, cultural day, when you know trying it all, oh gosh, yeah, like you know, that's what we live for know live for yeah, no, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So this next question I'm pretty sure we've really covered that why do all teachers need neurodiversity training? I'm pretty sure we've covered that. Yeah, is there any more you wanted to speak on that?
Speaker 2:I guess my only reflection is that it's really interesting to me how much weighting universities put on this. What do?
Speaker 1:you mean weighting?
Speaker 2:Well, you'll find that in some degree courses. So you have a Bachelor's of Education, you have a Master's of Teaching. So Master's of Teaching is usually two years, bachelor's is four years in Australia and on that course you could have one or two hours of lectures around neurodiversity and that's it for the whole four years. You know you might do a bit of behavior, but I really believe that we do need more um, especially as diagnosis rates go up, we get a much more. You know people become much more aware of.
Speaker 2:You know neurodiversity, the neurodiverse movement, because we're seeing people on TikTok and Instagram. You know people are getting. You know more neurotypical people that might not be exposed to that are understanding it and you know getting exposure to it. And it's interesting the national teaching standards have a very large block about disability inclusion, all of that, but we don't focus on that at university and we may not make that a priority in schools for professional development because there's so much else we need to do. I think that's the thing. If I was to get on my soapbox, go to canberra and advocate, I'd be pushing for a lot more of it in teacher training and ongoing yeah, no, totally, totally sorry.
Speaker 1:We've got a lot of people uh commenting through today you're popular katie fleet.
Speaker 1:Um, it's the katie fleet fan crew, right? Remember? Remember? I sent you through that um at the at sometime last year. Um, so craig has come through. It's interesting too. Um, building on what Ryan just asked, thinking about the idea of personalisation rather than thinking about a neurodivergent style of teaching or a neurotypical style of teaching, I wonder if it is more about getting to know the individual's personalities of each student and adjusting teaching instruction based on that, with full recognition of how difficult it is to do this with every individual student, but doing so in a way that doesn't erase all that we know I love that.
Speaker 2:So I think what craig's saying there am I am read out today I can do the next one? Um, it's. It's about that person-centered approach which will is what we've spoken about before, which is knowing the individual doesn't matter. If you don't need a label, it doesn't need to be like katie fleet dyslexic.
Speaker 1:We spoke about this in the PD course that we developed.
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%. Yeah, exactly, we did that for tertiary educators. It's not about labeling people or seeking. It's about understanding what their needs are, what they enjoy, and then tailoring your lessons or your teaching to that and then tailoring your lessons or your teaching to that. And I think you know it is hard when you've got a class of maybe 26, 30 kids to really get into the weeds of that and finding the time and the space. But Craig is right, that should be our number one thing that we're learning about our kids. And you know when you're sat in the classroom're watching, I don't know Oliver flicking a pencil, so I know immediately Oliver likes to have a tangible thing yeah so am I going to get the most out of him if I have like a fidget box or something, something like that?
Speaker 2:um, it is really important and it really gets my goat. When I go into schools and they have. You know, you must have seen these wills on the wall where it's like about me and it's like hi, my name's Katie, I have a dog and I live on the northern beaches. When actually it's like hi, my name's Katie, I don't do very well with LED lights, I get a headache and loud noises really affect how I work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, that's what it should have, right. Yeah, work and yeah, yeah, well, that's what it should have, right, yeah, no, I can't say. I've seen too many of those signs in my um, in my adult train, in my vocational education classes, sorry, no, it's, and it's interesting.
Speaker 2:We're looking for our baby, we're looking for nurseries and the other day I went in and this nursery it had a wall display on the UN conventions of the child and I was like these zero to three year olds will not know what that is. Wow, everything was written in text, there was no visuals and it just blew my mind that this nursery in no way was inclusive. They obviously weren't person centred and I just said as soon as we got in the car to my partner absolutely no, no way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow crazy no person-centred approach there, our child will not be going there. So I do find it. You can tell as a teacher when you walk into an institution or a setting straight away do they understand person-centred approach Do?
Speaker 1:they not? Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy. So we are getting towards the end here. Awesome chat, by the way, and I'm so glad we were able to get onto this eventually after the technical difficulty at the beginning there. But what should parents and schools know about neurodivergent teachers? Now we've sort of brushed a little bit on there, but did you want to go a little bit more onto it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I guess it's. You know, everyone who's listening will probably get by now. It's a benefit to have different types of people in your school or in your workplace. So neurodivergent teachers are amazing because at the minimum we can support the 10 to 20 percent of kids in that school that need a role model, that needs support, and to support other teachers in you know best practice and how to apply specific strategies. We can model that. Um, as a parent, I'm pretty sure you know it's a high likelihood that my child is going to have dyslexia and ADHD. If I can't see a neurodivergent teacher in that setting, I think I'd be hesitant to send her to that school. You know I'd be quite concerned. But I also think we need to have a broader mindset. You know I love when you go on LinkedIn and you see oh, richard Branson, he's dyslexic. Love when you go on LinkedIn and you see, oh, richard Branson.
Speaker 2:He's dyslexic and everyone's like you know, but then parents aren't willing to send their kids to a school where someone like Richard Branson could be teaching you know yeah almost so.
Speaker 2:I think we need to remove the barriers of what a neurodiverse teacher looks like, which apparently is someone who can't spell and is going to ruin their child's life and chance of a 99 atar and think of it all like. Think of the skills you're going to learn from that person that are going to help them in life outside of an amazing 100 point grade average yeah, no, it has so many benefits in so many ways, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:What advice would you have for other neurodivergent teachers out there?
Speaker 1:You know, because you know they may be. You know, and I think a big thing is like, I'm very big on trying to create environments where people can be open about who they are, because, you know, I feel I'm able to work a lot better when, um, I'm myself. But you know, there might be a lot of neurodivergent teachers who are afraid to speak up out of, you know, backlash or like we saw with what happened with you at that school there, um, you know. So what's some advice you would give to some of these people?
Speaker 2:I think it's really, you know, if you feel comfortable speaking up, that's the number one. And I I have this conversation with trainee teachers a lot because they don't disclose that they have, especially teachers with autism. They see they really believe that they're going to be, you know, persecuted against. People won't want to hire them, etc. And what I say to them is reach out, find someone to talk to. Like you know, I still have great conversations with the people I've taught with or taught to be teachers, and find people on LinkedIn, facebook who are in these groups and have those discussions. Ask if you can have five minutes on zoom, because it does. It helps having that discussion.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I'm a big advocate of therapy. I have. This year I found the most amazing therapist who's neurodiverse and it's changed my world because he gets when. You know, I say I had a really overwhelming urge to chew on things this week and he didn't laugh at me. He's like, oh, I get it, I totally get it. We just have conversations about that. And I also think, as a teacher, it's very easy to go and work in an environment that doesn't support you, that you don't see other colleagues who see you as a neurodivergent person and support you. So you have to find your place and your setting and you know, it might just take a couple of goes. And one piece of advice I give to my trainee teachers is don't jump at the first job. It's so easy to do.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking the exact same thing.
Speaker 2:That's where I screwed up, because I was like I have to go job and I have to go teach at this private school and it's going to be great. I should have casual or I should have reached out to people I knew and if you're feeling burnt out as a teacher say you're 10 years down the line as a neurodivergent teacher reach out to me, reach out to other people. There are so many other cool jobs in education where you can make a difference. If you just need a break, it's not a bad thing well, what would you say?
Speaker 1:like the job you're doing now, like that's a lot different from what you've done in the past, would you say, katie?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's very different from what I've done in the past. Um, I love it because I still get to work with schools. Um, but I also love it because I've kind of found my people. Like you know, it's taken me a while, but I've found my people. It's given me the opportunity to explore things. You know, meet people like you keep doing things.
Speaker 1:So I think, once I get to fly everywhere, right.
Speaker 2:I do love flying and yeah, I think just giving myself permission that I didn't have to be in a neurotypical bubble and follow everything was the most freeing point of all.
Speaker 1:Do you ever find that like because of the job you're in now and the role that you're doing? You sort of like at first it was probably a little bit different now because you've been working for a while but you don't feel as restricted anymore. It's sort of like, oh, can I do that? Or is it like that because you are working in that space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think there's part of that and then there's part of sort of seeking to be myself and learn, growing into my neurodivergent personality, which I probably masked until my late 20s. So I think, whatever job I was in, now that I'm able to unmask a bit more, um, I'm probably more comfortable. Like I don't think I could have come on a podcast like this 10 years ago. I don't think I would have been like whoa, I'm dyslexic adhd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and and, and I think that's a lot of people, you know. I think um a lot and I think that is something that we're at that like, um, you know, when we can create these environments where people do feel more comfortable, maybe they can be more themselves or feel more comfortable to do that. You know all of that type of stuff. So we've got one more and this is a big one, okay. So, ryan's, come through again and I'll do my best on this Last question. I promise Ha-ha, I'm transitioning into music psychology academia because I think it's a better fit for me than high school teaching. In this endeavour, I've been desperate to output an article titled Along the Lines of Where's my Time Out Card. Amidst the teacher shortage we have in Australia, how do we best support neurodivergent teachers with having to rely on luxury strategies? I like the earlier talk about team teaching, but, as you said, it's such a luxury especially I couldn't fit all the rest of that in.
Speaker 2:I think I get it Well. First off, ryan for stepping out and going to do something else he loves, and high school teaching will always be there. That was always my thought. It all goes peak tongue. I can go back to teaching. We're good. The casual rates are great currently.
Speaker 2:Um, it is a really hard conversation to have about luxuries. I like that you've called them luxury strategies. I think what you know we're talking about is strategies that benefit you as a neurodivergent teacher, if you are, or any sort of teacher that support your well-being, your love for the profession and can you ask them when there's a teaching shortage and when there's so much, you know, political discourse around teachers, how much we earn, how much time we get off, etc. Etc. Ultimately, it's an employer's responsibility to try and make an environment, as you know, supportive of you and your needs as anyone else, and that goes with the disability standards act and all those other things. I think it's something we really do need to flesh out more with the teaching union, with the department around neurodivergent teachers. That's probably, if anyone would like to.
Speaker 2:You know, my next role that's what I'd love to be doing is, you know, going into bat for neurodivergent teachers and understanding and teaching people about. We may need time off, but we could be doing some really cool stuff. I think when, as a teacher, you ask for time off, like you know, you say I'm sick. I remember going to school and being sick in a bin because I felt so guilty that I'd asked for time off and they'd made me feel so bad. This was in the UK that I just sat in my class and I was sick. How is that helpful?
Speaker 1:How did you teach for the day?
Speaker 2:I did it Literally. I had like a year one kid just rubbing my head.
Speaker 1:Are you okay, Miss? Are you okay? I'm okay, I'm like I literally need to be here.
Speaker 2:Just go over there. Oh my God. This is where we need to you. You know. We do need to think about how, because ultimately, if you put these luxury strategies in, you will retain more teachers, um, and it is a real problem. I don't have a direct answer, ryan, and I think you're doing the right thing by honoring what you want to do. Go explore that for a bit and just see where you go. It doesn't mean I did suffer with some sort of guilt about leaving teaching. It doesn't mean that you're leaving teaching. It means that you're going to do other things that can support individuals and teachers.
Speaker 2:Um, but yes, I think there is a very big space for us to work and will. This will come through the neuro diversitydiversity Academy. Once we get further down the line, we're going to go into bat and get people more aware of what training is needed, what strategy is needed, et cetera. So actually, Ryan, it's probably Will that's going to fix all that for us, not me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for the plug there, katie. You rock, but we definitely will see how we go. So, yeah, just one more shout out from Craig Great talk, thanks, Will and Katie. This was super. Thank you so much, craig and Ryan, for coming in today. I love when people are interacting like that. It just makes it so much different. So thank you so much for everyone for listening. Now, katie, if people did want to find out maybe a little bit more about your work or connect with you, where can they best find you?
Speaker 2:uh, probably linkedin is the best place, um, but you're very welcome to come find me at any sort of aspect event or ring aspect. I'm sure they'll throw out my contact katie's here today I'm always about. So yeah, um, feel free, but just drop me a message on linkedin or add me or whatever you want to do, and I'm always happy to chat nice, nice, nice.
Speaker 1:Well, look, katie, thank you so much for coming on today. Like it's. It's always a pleasure when we're talking. I'm being so excited to get um the advisory board members onto the podcast and and uh, talking all of that. I'm so excited for um you to becoming a mother shortly, so good luck with everything there. I'm so excited for you thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm sure I can come back with crazy tales of their raising. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we could have a whole other podcast episode on all of those tales. What do you reckon, Katie?
Speaker 2:I'll start jotting them down as they go. But yes, no, that would be wonderful and thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Awesome, no, but look, thank you so much. Everything you've shared today has definitely opened up my mind and sort of really maybe reminisce on a lot of the things that were probably a lot of issues for me, especially at school. But I really hope a lot of people can take away a lot of the stuff that you've shared today and really maybe put some of that in practice or start really thinking a little bit more deeply on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, brilliant. It's never too late, I don't think, to learn, so I love that.
Speaker 1:Totally and look for all of our listeners out there. If you haven't already done so, subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. My name's Will Wheeler, this is Katie Flea and this is Neurodivergent Mates. Until next time.