Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Redefining Work: Neurodiversity’s Evolution - Vicky Little
On this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, I’m excited to sit down with Vicky Little, Chief Operating Officer at Specialisterne Australia! With over 17 years of experience in autism and neurodivergent employment across Australia and the UK, Vicky is a passionate disability trainer and advocate who’s transforming how organisations engage with neurodivergent talent.
From developing autism-specific transition programs at the National Autistic Society in London to launching NSW’s first autism-specific employment service, Aspect Capable, Vicky’s journey is both inspiring and impactful. Now, at Specialisterne Australia, she’s leading efforts to create alternative recruitment pathways, helping businesses unlock the unique strengths of autistic individuals and embrace the autism advantage.
Questions:
1. Can you start by sharing a bit about yourself and your journey?
2. What was your experience like receiving a late diagnosis, and how has it shaped you?
3. Tell us about the work you’re doing now and what drives your passion.
4. In your view, how has the conversation around Neurodiversity evolved over the years?
5. What are some of the challenges you’ve encountered along the way?
6. On the flip side, what have been some of the most positive or rewarding experiences for you?
7. What do you think needs to happen next in the Neurodiversity employment space?
8. Finally, how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your work?
✨ If you're passionate about building inclusive workplaces or want to learn how to better support neurodivergent talent, this episode is for you!
🎧 Tune in now and join the conversation!
#NeurodivergentMates #Neurodiversity #InclusiveWorkplaces #AutismAdvantage #SpecialisterneAustralia #NeurodivergentTalent #DiversityAndInclusion #Podcast
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with my good friend Vicky Little Vicky. What's going on, my friend?
Speaker 2:Hey, will, thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no problem at all. No problem, obviously we're a few weeks late. We were supposed to come on a few weeks ago, but unfortunately Vicky was unwell. But are you feeling better now?
Speaker 2:That's the main thing I am. I'm so sorry about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, no no, oh cool, it's happening. You're looking well. You're looking well.
Speaker 2:Thank you I have kids, and so you regularly pick up the loggies that go around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy. But yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy. But no, no, all good, but look, really cool stuff that we're going to be covering today. So we're going to be talking about redefining work and neurodiversity's evolution. I think, you know, especially when you and I have sat down in the past Vicky, you know you've been doing this longer than me. You're like one of the pioneers right here, right and um, but like, but, I think, um, you know, uh, it's interesting when I, when I sat down with you last and you did speak about how, um, you know, so many things have changed, how you know, you were talking to a lot of people in the past there who had really no idea about what neurodiversity is and all of that. But now, you know, we're really at, I suppose, a place where it's just completely changing and evolving, which is good, but it is definitely interesting to see all the stuff there.
Speaker 1:But look, before we do get into things, I might just do a bit of a shout out for anyone who hasn't listened to us before. So if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. We're available on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn, and also, too. You can subscribe to us. Rate us. Do whatever you want to do on anywhere you listen to your podcast. Another big shout-out to Neurodiversity Academy. Whatever you want to do on anywhere you listen to your podcast. Another big shout-out to Neurodiversity Academy. If you want to check us out, go to neurodiversityacademycom. We've got some really cool stuff happening there. Subscribe to our emailing list and, honestly, there's going to be some really cool stuff coming out there shortly, so please don't miss out. But I'll do a little bit of a warning, like I always do.
Speaker 1:Look, some discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Now, last of all, if you do have some questions, please if you're watching this through the live version of the podcast just put them into the. You do have some questions? Please, if you're watching this through the live version of the podcast, just put them into the comments If you're on Facebook, linkedin, youtube, wherever you're at, and we should be able to answer them. What do you reckon, vicky? You ready to rock and roll, my friend?
Speaker 2:Ready to rock and roll? Let's do it.
Speaker 1:You're born ready, you know. All right, cool, cool, cool, cool cool. So let's get stuck into this.
Speaker 2:You know the first and always the one I always go on about. So, look, share us a little bit about yourself. Great, yeah. So look, I think it's best sort of spoken about from the perspective of my career and the journey and what's taken me in this space and what you know that will lead into sort of what I've seen so far. And so I guess, my start of my career.
Speaker 2:I studied psychology at university and from that I was really knowing that I wanted to work with people who you know were experiencing significant barriers, you know, in all walks of life. I worked with young autistic kids at the time and you know, that kind of then led into, you know, opened my eyes, and so I was in the UK. I moved to the UK after I finished studying and it was there that I was sort of really connected with. Okay. So you know there's something that needs to be done here in terms of supporting autistic people to move into the world of work where they're valued and they're seen and their strengths are identified. And so I started working. I was lucky enough to get a job working at the National Autistic Society.
Speaker 1:Sorry, can I ask sorry to cut you off? What year was that around? Just out of curiosity. So people have a bit of perspective of like whoa, that's changed a hell of a lot thank you.
Speaker 2:It's a good point. Thank you, and please do interrupt if I miss details like that.
Speaker 2:That's helpful no, no, it's all good it was 2006, um, so, yeah, so we're coming up to sort of 19 years ago and so, um, I got yeah, I was lucky to get this job at the national autistic society it was called prospects which is their employment service. So so you can imagine, yeah, 2006, where things were at. We would, you know very much about transitioning to employment, helping job seekers find work, training employers, and I remember literally having to cold call employers and tell them what autism is and that it is not just a childhood condition, it is, you know, across the lifespan. So that was the level of understanding that we were sort of, you know, tackling at that time. But it was a really exciting time in the space because we did see, you know, the movement started to take hold. So we started to work with big organisations like Goldman Sachs and BT and other you know, massive organisations that started to see the value that autistic individuals can bring to the workplace, and so that was the start of those sorts of big form recruitment programs, I suppose, and it was a really exciting time.
Speaker 2:It was just an amazing job, amazing team. There's still lots of people you know that I worked with then that are doing amazing work in this space. So it was really pivotal. And then I returned to Australia after five years in the UK. Wow, crazy and interesting was. What was interesting is that I noticed that we were kind of behind here in Australia. So we'd made all this progress in London and we, you know I returned to kind of back to where we started when I first started working in 2006 in London. So I kind of had to once again take people on the journey of understanding that autism is a lifelong condition. We've got talented individuals who are not able to access work, not able to you know, use it.
Speaker 1:Can I just ask something on that, right? So just out of curiosity, when you're calling people and explaining, you know, about autism, for example, what were some of the responses you've got? You got Because, like you said, you were having to explain some of that stuff and, like you're even talking to us, you're like no, it's not just the childhood condition. What were some of the responses that you got. Is that a curiosity? If you want to share that?
Speaker 2:It's a great question because I mean obviously everyone would be different. Some want to share that. It's a great. It's a great question because I mean obviously everyone would be different some people and a common one was oh yeah, I have a you know, insert relation here niece, you know, nephew, sister, brother, you know whatever, who is autistic, um, but they're non-verbal so we can't hire you know such. So the misconception and the stereotypes was just, you know, terrible, to be honest, because people were thinking that everybody, every, autistic person.
Speaker 1:This is one thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah and so the stereotypes which we still are challenged by today, you know, were even more of a barrier back then, as we know, which is why we do what we do. But some people it would click and they'd be like oh yeah, this is really, you know, I want to give somebody a go, and then it was by giving somebody a go that then, you know, obviously their mindset would change and then they would see the talent and see what this was about and what we're trying to do here. So it really varied.
Speaker 1:Wow, crazy. But like what was it? Oh sorry, you go.
Speaker 2:No, no, you had a question, Go go.
Speaker 1:Oh well, no, no, no, but I'm really bad. I sometimes just throw things in because, like I don't know, it just changes it up. But, like you know, coming back to Australia after being in, I suppose, the UK for so long, and often, you know, I think within the neurodiversity community, we often look at the UK as the leaders in this field, type of thing what was that like? Coming back to Australia and then coming back to like almost probably close to nothing in place at that point of time?
Speaker 2:Look it was. It just became quite clear that I needed to do something, because there was just nothing, and it was really. I literally got back and I just emailed everyone who was doing anything in this space to see what they're doing, to see how we can work together, and I set up my own business. Um, and so, similar to you, will I, you know, I had another job. I was working in disability services at Sydney University. That was a three-day-a-week job and for the rest of my time, as you, you do, I was running my own business. So I was supporting, I was mentoring job seekers to find work, I was training employers because it just didn't exist and so it was. You know, it was real advocacy work. It was really important that it happened and it was connecting with everyone in the space and really starting the conversation and bringing what we'd done from the UK to Australia because, as you say, you know, we were leading the way in a lot of ways, and it was, you know, it was really exciting to see, you know, what we could do once we started that conversation.
Speaker 2:It was slow, obviously, and we're still, you know, moving at different paces, but I can definitely attest to, you know, things started to change in that space. We could see the employers start to go oh okay, this is really awesome. But then what happened with that business is then I went and worked at Autism Spectrum Australia, at Aspect, and built their employment service there, which was really exciting. So that business then became the grounds of what was Aspect's employment service. So that was really exciting. That had business then became the grounds of what was Aspect's employment service. So that was really exciting. That had never been done before. That was the first time they'd supported in the employment space, and so then obviously that gave us way more kind of capacity to reach employers and get funding and to you know, to really make change because of you know for those who don't know, aspect is one of the leading, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Autism.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I never realised until, like because we've got like one of our advisory members, katie Pleat is on our advisory board and I never realised. Aspect is like a school. Yes, they have schools.
Speaker 2:Yes. So Aspect is well known for its education side of things. Incredible incredible schools that they run, but they just never moved into much of adult space beyond community services, and so this was a really exciting time.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I did that for a few years and then moved across to Specialist Earn and I've been working for Specialist Earn now for seven or eight years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, Wow there you go, hey, so I just want to step in for a sec. So we've got Carlos Rodriguez, so Carlos has actually been on the show before and he's a regular here. Carlos, how's it going? My friend, Awesome to hear from you Now. He just wanted to ask the US is even further behind why, in your opinion Hopefully that's not who you are. You might see it from a different opinion. It's a big question Actually. No, they're not. They're actually doing some great stuff. I don't know.
Speaker 2:This is a big question, obviously topical right now, so we won't get into politics, but we will just reflect on the question in general. So Specialist Anne has an office in North America, both in the States and in Canada, and you know we really see some large organisations doing some really great things. But you know, and obviously on the flip side, we still see those same sort of challenges due to perhaps um budget or um, uh, you know, internal challenges to try and get, you know, approvals over the line, um, and also, I think obviously not speaking from experience for living in america, but what I do know is that the each state is so, um, it's almost like a different country right in each, in each. I mean, you can you?
Speaker 1:can answer that. It's almost similar to here, right?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, in some ways, but even more disparate. I think you know each state has just such separate ways of working and it's hard for them to you know anyway. So I think that's what's spoken about is one of the challenges. But also globally, in every country, it's lack of understanding, lack of awareness from both organizational level and, you know, at a manager level. So we see that across all countries. Um, you know, and that's what we're trying to trying to tackle, nah cool, cool, cool cool.
Speaker 1:So you know, moving on from that, what's your experience like? So you know, when we caught up, uh, you know, a while ago, there we were speaking about a little bit of your um journey so far and um you were sharing with us that you received. You know you, you've recently been diagnosed um with adhd and you know you even said to yourself you're like I was so surprised, or why didn't I pick up on this earlier, especially working in this space, all of that. So you know what's your experience been like receiving a late diagnosis and how has it shaped you?
Speaker 2:Great, Great question. So, yes, it's been a really interesting process. I'd say, you know, we're reflecting on the fact that I've been working in this space for coming up to 19 years or so and I'd say it's been in the last five years or so that it's really kind of unravelled for me in terms of understanding that I have ADHD and if you think about what was happening five years ago, which is scary to think actually, but this was COVID, you know 2020.
Speaker 1:And so I know that's five years ago. It blows my mind, isn't it? I know man, it feels like it was just yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know. And so, look, I think, for a lot of women in particular, we have systems in place and you know, we may not know we have them, but they're coping mechanisms, they're routine, they're to-do lists, they're you know, there's this concept of body doubling, which I knew about, but I didn't know that I was, you know, needing that, which is basically that you know, when you're spending time or there's other people around you, you're more likely to be able to initiate tasks or move through procrastination challenges, you know or to get something done. And so we have all those systems in place. And then COVID lockdowns meant that all of us you know, that was all it all fell away. So I think we're all put in this place of, oh my gosh, you know, now I have to reinvent myself and find out how to cope.
Speaker 2:And a lot of awareness was raised during that time because a lot of adults was, you know, starting to unravel and realize that they have adhd themselves. And, like I said, that's for a lot of women, I think. And so for me, I think I can now see that, on reflection, with the diagnosis, that many of the traits that I thought was just part of my personality is actually signs of adhd. So I've obviously I've always been honest and outspoken and that's made me a strong advocate. I'm like my brain is always feels like there's a million tabs open I think that's just the best way to describe it and it's why I appear distracted because of all the you know the busy brain. Um, I have a home full of doom piles and that's just unfinished tasks and unfinished projects, but this is all you know hidden stuff. People aren't seeing this right. So, um, obviously you know my for me, I struggle with attention to detail, which is not a true for a lot of ad for some adhd's, but for me, so do you.
Speaker 1:So do you like, miss, like little things I say you'll send an email and then you'll be like, oh my god, I didn't realize that I had this spelling mistake there, I've read it twice.
Speaker 2:I've read it twice and it's still wrong, you know yeah yeah, mostly in big pieces of work, like not you know small things, but if there's just you know who's got time for that in, you know I'm in jest but like my brain is just let's move on to the next thing, whereas a lot of people thrive in moving through methodically and reading the detail and making sure that it's correct, and I need and this is where teamwork is so important I've got amazing team members who have outstanding attention to detail, so I lean on them for help with that. I have experienced overwhelm and burnout. You know we were speaking about this before and I think you know I didn't realise that that was part of it. I just thought that was part of me, but that's definitely a common sign, I suppose, of ADHD or a symptom.
Speaker 1:And common um sign, I suppose, of adhd or a symptom, and I and I think it's so, so and sorry just for all of our listeners. So before we did come on like we always come on like 15 minutes early to talk about, like um, just to make sure, sure, everything's working. But what we were talking about was that, you know, especially for myself, um, let's say I, let's say I get off this um uh podcast here afterwards and I go sit on the couch and watch netflix for me in my head I'm thinking, man, what I'm lazy I. I need to be doing something. Man, everyone's gonna think I'm a slob. You know, is that what you were sort of going through like man, man, I need? Or what I've also found as well, is that when I don't have that work there or something to occupy me, I do struggle with my depression and stuff like that. You know, I'm like like I need something to distract me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's interesting and I think everyone's different. I definitely think I used to be like that Will Like, and I think I think everyone's different. I definitely think I used to be like that, well, like, I definitely used to be just all go like, you know, thinking about that, owning a business and having another job and and you know the push to make change here in Australia that you know I definitely experienced burnout and the doctors called it adrenal fatigue, but you know it was just me burning out, um. It was nice, you know, to have a label, I suppose, but actually in hindsight now it was adhd um and I've actually had to learn as a result. So one of my strategies now is making sure that I have downtime. So, you know, whatever that looks like for each person is different, but for me it's just making sure that I schedule that in, because if I don't, then yeah, I will just continue I'll go for a ride, so probably.
Speaker 1:So I've got like another meeting after this, but I'll probably go for a ride on my bike, like afterwards type of thing, and I think that sort of winds me down type of thing, that's it there you go like everyone's different and I think that's you know, and that's a really healthy way actually to manage so well.
Speaker 1:But but what about what it was? What about eating? Like I know that I used to struggle a lot with um because I'd be like, so busy I'm like, oh my god, I haven't even. I haven't even made dinner stuff at mcdonald's across the road. I'll go and eat something crap, you know. Or I'm traveling for work, I'll just eat something crap. But now I've really changed how I, how I eat and I found that's really worked for me yeah, I think you know I've heard different sides and everyone's different once again.
Speaker 2:but, um, you know you can either people forget to eat if you have ADHD or, like for me, it was actually more that it over-consumed my thinking to the point where it was just like it's exhausting how much I'm thinking about food and I don't know if that's more of a female trait. To be honest, you know, this is just my experience.
Speaker 1:Or water. Forget to drink water. Yes, forget to drink water.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. It depends on the zone that you're in, I think oh yeah, you know what I mean if it's a cooler day.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I'm like I don't feel like water.
Speaker 2:But it's like man, I need to have water yes oh yeah and there's lots of cool apps now where people get reminders to drink water like there's really cool stuff around to help this sort of stuff it's actually I'll say you go I was just gonna say, like you know, in line with that was also I didn't realize I was having sensory overstimulation, like you know, take me to a loud supermarket or a bright supermarket. Lots of noise, those bright lights on those new vehicles.
Speaker 2:What is with the bright lights on those vehicles that are just like and I seem to be the only one that was like- Sorry.
Speaker 1:Which vehicles are you talking about?
Speaker 2:You know, just cars that have these really intense lights.
Speaker 1:Oh, like the. I think it's like the LED they've got LED lights in them, Like they're the newer models and they're like fully bright, and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, look, you know, once again, and it can be very mild, it's not, you know, significant, but I can now see how that would affect my executive functioning and I would just avoid things that involve that.
Speaker 1:So you really struggle with the shops? Is that correct?
Speaker 2:I've never been a big fan of shopping. Oh, I struggle with the shops.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've never been a big fan of shopping and I'm now wondering whether that's just because it's a land that I don't want to go, but you know what, right, like what I used to find was like, and I didn't realize it until I got diagnosed and I'm like, oh, that was probably that that when I would go to the shops and it's increasingly busy, even like the car park, where you can't find a car park, why am I even here? You know little things like that. It's just so much going on that now I've sort of gone. Okay, well, I'm going to uh order my um shopping, uh, that I just pick it up from you know, like woolworth's drop pick up and whatever it's called, right?
Speaker 1:pick it up and then I'll be out of there right, or I'll go when it's quiet and no one can annoy the crap out of me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you just kind of learn ways that work for you and, once again, thanks to COVID, there's so many other ways now to access things like, whereas before it was, you know, not as flexible I'm curious as well, like do you crave social?
Speaker 1:like? What I've found is I really crave social interaction. Like I feel like I like don't get me wrong, there's sometimes where I need that quiet time, but then I'm like man, I really want to just go and hang out with some people or go and network. Yes, chat with Vicky on the phone yes.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to do that much. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I do crave that and I think just being around other people that's been sort of, yeah, definitely a downside of the COVID situation. Obviously, we all were stuck for a while, but you know, even now moving forward.
Speaker 2:You know working from home and so every now and then it would just be nice to kind of be in a space with other people and to workshop and to talk face-to-face. And I think I replace that now with sometimes I just go and work in a cafe, because it's the same for me, Like it's just being around the buzz of other people or just being around that and it's like a low-level noise that is really helpful. And this is that body doubling thing I get so much done working in that space and you know, that could be the opposite for some people.
Speaker 1:Sorry, do you know how to pronounce this person's name here, vicky? I'm sorry if we can't pronounce it Sianaboo a? It's a hell of a lot of right, but thank you so much for sharing this. It says I'm still too scared to get diagnosed and find out. Um, if indeed, yes, I have adhd or something else, but there is so much being said here that I can really relate to. Three of my sisters also have similar issues. All the others are okay. We call it our dad trait, good old dad. We talk to each other about it and then we convince each other it's not adhd and we try to move on until it gets overwhelming again well thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 1:You know I I think probably on that, you know, and this is it's each individual's um choice to want to get diagnosed and all of that. But thank you so much for sharing that, and I think it was once I was starting to hang around other people who were ADHD and all that. That's what really helped me to go. You know what? I think I am going to get diagnosed Because I didn't even realise I was at first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, each journey is different. I was really motivated to get it just last year because it was reaching that point where, um, I just needed to know if the way my brain was working was, you know, because this is the work that we do, and I could just see myself in so many um of the you know, the conversations we're having and the and the wonderful people that we support into into work, and so, and I think, just like I said, yeah, the COVID unravelling and also another thing that happened and you know I don't know if this is kind of spoken about a lot, but during COVID lockdown in 2021, my darling dad passed away, and so there was a significant period of loss and and grief and and lots of and then sort of you know, a series of loss around that time. That then meant that I just lost all my like coping mechanisms.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting how that kind of profound loss can then lead to really the overspilling. Of ADHD occurred, I suppose, because I was just feeling Well.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with you there. What I found, I was on my own all the time, you know, and I felt I, I had lost, my cousin, had passed away over that period. Um, you know, and I think, just the fact that you know, I, I, it was like I didn't even have the energy to say you know what I'm gonna message vicky, for example, and energy to say you know what I'm going to message Vicky, for example, and have a chat. Do you know what I mean? Because it felt like I don't know. Well, to tell you the truth, I was waking up like late in the afternoon because I was out of work. I wasn't working, you know.
Speaker 2:So you know what I mean and like I just fully lost control, and it took me a good six months to get over it, once we got out of that lockdown. Yep, yep, yep under yep can totally empathize with everything you're saying and that's you know, it's, it's that impact of covid initial impact, and then it's the you know, it's the constant and people are still processing and working through all of that because of life scary.
Speaker 1:It's like man. I hope we don't go back that I don't want to have to go back through that yeah no, yeah, it's forever changed, you know humans, hasn't it?
Speaker 2:Totally, yeah, and I think the thing that I sort of learned during that time as well about you know, it became really clear was about my processing style. So I never thought much about it. But now I, that time I've really learned about my need to move in order to help my processing. So I became a huge advocate for walking meetings. During COVID I was the walking meeting guru, so there was at least one a day. I just needed to get out because that might have been my only time out of the house, and I now have realized that I just need like that. Movement is where I work best. And so now I have a standing desk and I have a treadmill under my desk and I just don't remember the last time I sat down. To be honest, I'm always and yeah, I didn't realize that that's.
Speaker 2:That's so part of my way of thinking. I will um verbal instructions, I might miss key details, and I'm definitely known for speaking uh without thinking sometimes, and so it, you know that that's. I know that now that's how my brain is working, and so I am consciously it's all right if you, if you've blurt out something, can it's in a prep we're in a safe space, aren't we so?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah. We've just got thousands of people listening to us right now so, um, yeah, it's just a really interesting experience yeah, totally, totally, totally. But look, moving on from that, tell us about the work you're doing now and what drives your passion. So you shared a little bit about that before, but I think a big thing and why I was like man, let's get you on, was that you know, I think was, um, the work that you're currently doing. It has changed a little bit and you really wanted to share that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you. It's a really important question because at Specialist Stern we're doing some really cool things and I think you know, I think sometimes we've been stuck in people's minds as just doing recruitment and only working with IT organisations or to help people find IT roles. So nothing could be further from the truth. It's almost like you know, we're an actor that's been kind of profiled to be only working in romantic movies.
Speaker 1:A western, yeah, a romantic movie or a comedy or something.
Speaker 2:No, but you know, at Specialist Zone, obviously, that's, I think, because we had such. I mean, you know, if we reflect back to when we first opened here in Australia 2015, 2016, and then, you know, beyond we had such great success in running these hiring initiatives. That was initially for autistic individuals, and now we've opened up to all um, neurodivergence and so. But back then it was like groundbreaking, and it was. This was the stuff that was then taking australia into where the uk was, you know. So it was.
Speaker 2:This is the stuff that made the news. This is the stuff that made businesses go hang on a second. What are we missing out on if we're not doing this? And so, you know, that's why I think we've kind of been stuck in that because of, you know, the name that we made for ourselves in that time.
Speaker 2:But since then, I mean, we really want to be seen as almost like trusted advisors to employers, to help connect employers to meaning, you know, to skilled talent in the neurodiverse community, and that's, you know, that's our job. So it's skilling up the employers to be better in terms of inclusion and understanding and making the changes that need to be made across the board to make their workplaces more neuroinclusive and, obviously, making recruitment more neuroinclusive. But we've definitely moved well beyond the recruitment. We're finding that we're doing a lot more work in everything to do with creating neuro-inclusive workplaces. So it's, you know, training, a lot of leadership training, because for me, I believe that's the key to success in terms of building neuro-inclusive workplaces. It's the manager right, like a good manager, an understanding manager will be the one that can not only create a safe and understanding place for their neurodivergent employees, but change the culture of the team and make that a fostered, foster a culture of inclusion, um and understanding goes a huge way.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Because I think that what I've seen and the problems I've seen in the past, is that because I've had people reach out to me and go, oh look, we, we've got David here who's really struggling. You know, we're thinking about we're going to have to fire him shortly and it's like, well, hang on, let's find out what's going on with David. And then they're telling me all these bad things about David. But then I speak to David and think David's really good, what's going on? What's the manager doing? Think david's really good, what's going on? What's the manager doing? What's the leadership team doing? And then you find out that all the problems are in the leadership team there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm just sort of going on from what you're talking about. Why?
Speaker 2:it's so important so in regards to management and leadership yeah, I've always said that the strongest indicator of success of a neurodivergent employee is an understanding manager. And you know a lot of sort of managers sort of think, well, that's a lot of pressure, but actually it doesn't cost anything extra to be understanding and empathetic. It doesn't? You know, it's about good communication and good management and you know those are the skills that you'd want to be having anyway as a manager. So it's about getting better at that, so that you're supporting all your employees.
Speaker 1:But it's like planning right and I was speaking because I help people like get their business plans and that ready for, like you know, for their businesses and all of that type of stuff right and it's like if you create, like if you start a business without a business plan, for example, you've got no direction and everyone else around you has got no direction right. But if you've got some type of you know direction plan of how you're able to support not only just your neurodivergent people but everyone there, right, it's going to be a lot less stress, it's going to be easier for you. But trying to get that across to people sometimes is very difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I mean one of the questions is about the challenges actually, so we'll probably come back to that, but it's definitely it's dismissed as not a priority, and that's where we're going completely wrong. You know a lot of people, leaders, leadership teams and executives know it's a priority and and do put things in place to make sure that we're fostering that, that culture of neuro can I give you an example?
Speaker 1:yeah so, not long ago I was, um, doing some work for a company. The management team kept putting off the neurodiversity training, all of that. All of these staff were coming in who were employed for this company as part of some program, right, and, um, you know, I'm sitting there thinking these people keep flogging, keep telling us to put off the training. They're not going to, uh, because they're too busy and all of that. And I'm like you know, shit's gonna kick off shortly, something's gonna go wrong, and it's to, because they're too busy and all of that. And I'm like you know, shit's going to kick off shortly, something's going to go wrong, and they're going to have a go at me, sure enough. And I even told my manager. I said, look, this is going to happen. And I said, when it happens, you wait, you watch. Yep, sure enough, it happened. And that day I pretty much went see you later. I'm out of here much went see us later.
Speaker 2:I'm out of here, you know, because I'm like it's like okay, well, if we're not going to support this or give us the opportunity to be able to, to make these changes not necessarily huge changes or more just training and learning what am I even here for you know what I mean yeah, 100, absolutely, it's key and you know, I think, think we're in Australia, we're in that sort of a lot of organisations are building their capacity in education, but there's, you know, so much more that we need to do and so you know, in terms of the other stuff that Specialist Zone does.
Speaker 2:So one of our key services and a lot of people don't know this, I think is workplace coaching and support. So you know, we have a team of amazing neurodiversity coaches and, um, many of them have lived experience and they, um, they are the, the key, they are that. You know, I think one of the most highly valued workplace adjustments and support strategies is having a coach, um, and you know it's that external coach who's not in the business, who's not in the weeds and can see things from a different perspective the the outside, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and offers that from a you know, neurodiversity expertise kind of thing. But the key difference for us is that we're just not coaching the employee, because that's we need to be coaching the manager as well. Right, because the manager is also going on a journey of understanding neurodiversity, which is what we were saying before about education being key. It's okay so how can I support this individual? How can I, you know, give them the best tools to succeed? And so the coaching is only best done when it's for both.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what and you know what we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy, and the biggest thing there is that it starts with that organization. We need to make sure that organization has the right tools. Understanding at least basic understanding it can be, and they can grow from there.
Speaker 1:I believe, um, because if we just go, hey look, we've got some neurodivergent students who want to study at your college or university and they're like yeah, yeah, all right, they're gonna fail these people, but if we help the people who are helping the people, who are the students, for example, they should succeed, if they're you know. So, yeah, no, totally agree exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:And you know, as a manager myself, if I was able to get access some additional coaching in a particular area that I just needed to, it's gonna. It boosts your skills, not only supporting that employee but supporting all your employees, because the skills that you learn are going to help everybody. You know and we hear this time and time again from managers is that it's just, you know, once again, it goes back to being just good practice and it helps them to be more empathetic, more patient, more understanding, and you know that's just good for everybody. And then the final thing that we do a lot of now is, like I said, you know we are trusted advisors. We're here to partner with organisations to take them on the journey in terms of achieving their goals, whatever it might be, to becoming neuro-inclusive workplaces. So it's things like assessing, you know, your maturity for where you're at in terms of neuro-inclusion and diversity and inclusion in general, and giving feedback and recommendations about what to do and supporting them in that journey all the way through. That you know, do you?
Speaker 1:collect data on like stuff like that? Are you able to go? Hey look, from implementing this, we've been able to see that you are now. So do you have that type of stuff in place? Out of curiosity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're starting to build that kind of data. This is all new really, you know so we're definitely going to put that sort of baseline. We're going to start to build that baseline and then people will be able to sort of really see where they're sitting, which I think is, you know, can be enticing.
Speaker 1:It's valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. You know, yeah, so that's largely what we do. You know, we basically do everything and we're here. Our goal is to help one million neurodivergent individuals find meaningful careers, and we do that through partnerships, through partnering with employers, through inspiring other organisations to go and do their own recruitment, and it has to be done via building those neuroinclusive workplaces first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. I suppose it's baby steps and you know, the more we do it, the better it will come. But I think that actually rolls into the next question. Actually really well, so in your view, how is the conversation around neurodiversity evolved over the years?
Speaker 2:That's yeah, and I guess we've kind of touched on on this a little bit, but it's a good question, um, to dive deeper in. So you know, like I said, there was very little understanding when I first started working in this space. It really was a case of taking people on the journey right from the beginning, um, but those programs that we did in sort of 2006, 2007, 2008 were really paving the way. And also, at the same time, torkel Sonner, who is the thought leader behind Specialist Stern it's his, you know, he's the founder of Specialist Stern. He was in Denmark building Specialist Stern at the time. So Specialist Stern has been around for 20 years and so 2004 he started, you know, really demonstrating that autistic talent could be matched to certain skills, particularly in IT. Because back then, once again, we were taking people on a journey to see the talent, and IT was the best way at the time to show that. But, like I said, we've moved beyond just IT and we work with people in every single industry, and then I think you know it was that sort of movement. From that we saw the changes in Europe at the time and, like I said, we were a few years behind here in Australia, and so we've kind of brought Australia back up, I think, to where everybody else is in the world.
Speaker 2:I think we can see that around 2019 and 2020, what we call the neuroadvantage movement really started to take hold. So we started to talk more about neurodiversity as a whole, as opposed to just autistic individuals, you know, in isolation. But what we know now about autism is that it often exists in conjunction with many other eurotypes. Yeah, that's right. So the intersectionality is so common. So I'm so glad that we've, you know, moved beyond and we're broadening our understanding. I love the word neurodiversity because to me it's a celebratory word and it's celebrating the human experience and how diverse we all are and how wonderful that is and how we need that diversity for everyone to bring value to organizations, you know, and so, um, I think we're now seeing that we're now the shift for me, I suppose, was when we stopped. You know, we we've always kind of cold called and chased organizations and got people involved in that conversation, but the flip was obviously when organizations started to call more often call us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want, I get it.
Speaker 2:I want in because I see the talent that we're missing out on. I see the barriers in our recruitment process. I see we're not supporting this incredible cohort of people. What can we do? And so that's been the shift.
Speaker 1:Sorry, can I ask one thing on that right? So I was actually speaking to someone about this the other day. You know how, like, we're seeing over in the United States how they're doing like a big D&I cull, almost right. What are your thoughts on that? Because, like, and I'll sort of say myself to tell you the truth, for me personally, I'm not like, oh, that's so wrong For me. What I'm actually seeing and reading is that you know organisations who want to, you know, be inclusive and all that are still going to be inclusive, but the ones that you know, because I've seen some big organisations like Disney, for example, they've pulled that. I think they'd pulled out of their DE&I or cut it back or something like that. And you know, I think in a way, it's almost a good thing, and I'm saying it in a positive way, because what we're going to start seeing is the organisations who truly do support DE&I, for example, compared to ones who are just doing it because they have to. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Oh, Will I have so many thoughts on this, but you know we've only got a short space yeah, we only got about 15 minutes I obviously feel very passionately about this because you can see from what I've said so far, this is you know, I'm so passionate about this space but, I will say this I think I agree that organizations who already know, like thankfully, like said, this neurodiversity movement took hold about five or six years ago and thankfully we're already there.
Speaker 2:So, therefore, this kind of conversation that's happening over here won't impact the organisations that are doing good already and that know that they need to do it. And you know, there's so many that are out there that are just going to continue on with their agenda, regardless of the noise that's being made.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, though, obviously you know, there's this kind of othering rhetoric which is taking place and that's damaging, obviously, to the work that people are doing in this space and it minimises the incredible talents and values that, yeah, anyway the whole human experience the whole human race brings, and so we in this space I know a lot of diversity and inclusion advocates and neuro inclusion advocates, you know, just charging forward, because there's been many times in history, I suppose, where people have tried to stop the work that's happening here.
Speaker 1:It almost makes it more powerful In diversity in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right and so it's actually just, you know, I think, urged a lot of people to kind of do more, and we are so grateful to hear organisations are saying you know, we're moving forward with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's what I was sort of getting at was you're going to find that organisations are going to go. You know, because I'm pretty sure you're the same, I don't follow a crowd, you know. I'm like, no, screw you, I'm going to do and I'm pretty sure there's some big organisations out there who probably are that they're unique and all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:Correct are that they're unique and all of that type of stuff correct? Yeah, and that's why specialists don't? You know? We really we connect with those organizations who who get it and want to come on the journey and those organizations will continue, you know, especially in Australia, but we know globally that, um, a lot of organizations won't be deterred by the noise that's happening but did you know what else I did read?
Speaker 1:and I can't and look, I can't quote it or anything, so I could be completely wrong, but they did say that. Pardon me sorry. They did say that. Um, uh, there might be some parts of d and I that might not be as focused on as what it has been in the past, but they may be looking more into, say, say, things like neurodiversity and some of these other like accessibility and things like that may become more of a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I can't quote what I'm reading. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
Speaker 2:But all I do know is that, separate to that and what I've been thinking and a lot of people have been talking about recently, well, maybe, maybe I'm sort of seeing that, but, um, I believe that neurodiversity does not sit in as a dni initiative. It is.
Speaker 2:It is everyone, so one in five yeah, yeah, true statistic for um, you know, neurodiversity prevalence, um, and that's sort of becoming more of a global statistic, but we certainly refer to it here in Australia and I think you know, we know that that means that it's everybody. So every team, every manager, every, you know, every department will need to be coming on board with how we work in a more neuro-inclusive way in general. And so therefore, it's not kind of a budget that sits in D&I or it's not an initiative, a a budget that sits in dni, or it's not an initiative, it's, it's an everyday practice. It sits with hr, it sits with you know, it's every, it's part of every policy and every process. So hopefully this kind of you know will help us move more in that way, as opposed to, you know, just on dni totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So moving on from that and I think this sort of works into, but we seem to be flowing with it really well vicky.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. We've got this down, pat, you know. So what are?
Speaker 1:some of the challenges you've encountered along the way yeah, and I think I have.
Speaker 2:I've definitely listed some of them so far. So, like I said, I think number one is always lack of understanding. That is the biggest barrier, because if you have no understanding, then you have no, or at least willingness to understand.
Speaker 1:That stops I like that one. What you've just said, the willingness to understand.
Speaker 2:That's one of the challenges I've faced because you need to be open to a totally like, a different way of recruiting um, leaning into what that person's experience is, without bias or without sort of stereotyping or assumptions, because we're talking about hidden neurotypes, right? So every individual that you're working with, we don't know, potentially, what's going on for them. And so that's the challenge when managers, colleagues, whatever interviewers, whoever you might be, we make assumptions based on what we see, as opposed to you know the whole person and what's going on for them. So, unconscious, bias, stereotypes, all of that continues to be the biggest barriers.
Speaker 2:And then, leaning into what we've just said before, going back to that, you know, lack of investment, I suppose you know there tends to be. It tends to be deprioritized, I suppose, but, like what I said before, we believe that it is the number one priority in terms of, you know, meeting business objectives. The bottom line, neurodiversity is key to everything and you will, as a business, you, you get more innovation, you get more um sorry, can I ask, is there someone like yelling out the window near your joint?
Speaker 2:oh, sorry it's. Yeah, I think it's young children. I'll close the door, is it no, no, no it's all cool.
Speaker 1:I was just like is that my house or is that your joint?
Speaker 2:okay, no, it's all cool. It's all cool. Sorry, sorry, sorry been eating hd.
Speaker 1:Obviously hearing people like in the background, it's like what the hell?
Speaker 2:is that I will close my window. Just hang on a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, too easy, too easy, oh my God. Yeah, I don't know about others, but like yeah, when I like hear little things, it like sidetracks me.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, and it's.
Speaker 2:yeah, there's lots of kids in this area, which is great, but thank you, that's good, that's good, no problem yeah, and so then I think the other shot, like I said, yeah, lack of investment, budgetary redirection or reprioritization and um. And one thing that's interesting fact from our perspective at specialist and um, the lead time that I suppose it takes from having the first meeting or the key, you know, that really big discussion where you you can see the the cogs turning and organizations or whoever it might be in that meeting, realizing how important this is and how vital it is, but from that it can still be a year or more to actually then getting a contract signed or moving ahead with the initiatives that they know are imperative. So we see that as a constant challenge and that's what we're always trying to work on is helping organisations get to that point and then move in that direction to make the changes that need to be made and to take them on that journey, and that's what we sort of facilitate, I guess.
Speaker 1:No, no awesome stuff. Now, on the flip side, what have been some of the most positive and rewarding experiences for you?
Speaker 2:I love this question because it made me sort of reflect on.
Speaker 1:We've spoken about the negative stuff. Now let's talk about the positive yeah.
Speaker 2:Look, I think, obviously, for me, I mean seeing the journey of so many individuals that we've supported over the years, who not only secure a job because for me, I think the word job is not what it is important but we're about careers. It's helping people connect with, because a lot of neurodivergent individuals may be listening or that we know are working for sure, but is it in a job that meets your skill sets and where you're valued and that is going to challenge you and help you have career progression? That's what we're about, and so it's finding the right team for them and the values that values them and that they can contribute in a meaningful way, because, once again, every human deserves to have that. And so, you know, we've seen that happen so many times over the years that there's too many to list. But that, for me, is that connection and, you see, the long-term impact of a career is obviously invaluable.
Speaker 1:And I think probably one of the coolest things would be seeing people starting, for example, growing, developing in their career, going on even further, but going on their own journey.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? I think, and I think it's in there, um, you know, and if I look back at what I was like when I was younger, um, it was very difficult to take those first steps to really build my career, but once I sort of was like, hang on, I've got this, you know, there's no stopping me, type of thing, and I think I've seen that in other people. It's like man, this guy's killing it, now this, this woman's killing it.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and that's it and it's connecting. And so, yeah, I mean, there's so many individuals who, yes, they've gone on their own path and you can see that they're finally getting that value and just then the ripple effect on the rest of their life like we've some seen some individuals going by their own houses whereas before they weren't even able to find work and just being a taxpayer is, you know, is such a gift for a lot of people who were never able to achieve that before. So that is part of the most rewarding. But then obviously, I think similarly, the journey of the manager and the organization is actually not talked about enough.
Speaker 2:So I've seen some managers who take part in our, you know, recruitment programs, for example, this is, you know, we've heard some managers say that hiring neurodivergent employees, this particular employee, such and such, has been the best thing that they've done in their career, because they were taken on that journey of perhaps apprehension. Yes, like you know, you're kind of helping me see how to do recruitment differently. I've never done recruitment differently or I've always managed in this way. So, you know, um, and, and then they, but they say I get it and I appreciate it and I want to come on the journey and they do. And then the impact and the flip for them in terms of the value to the team, you know, obviously to the role, but to the entire team, to the organisation and to them as a manager. So you know, if you're in that position as a manager or a decision maker, you know this is the impact.
Speaker 1:You're changing people's lives.
Speaker 2:You're changing people's lives and then for you as an individual, you're bringing more meaning to the work that you do on a daily basis. And this is where it goes back to those challenges. We get deprioritised in terms of the importance of this work, but there's nothing more important because it's about the individual life, but then also the impact that you can have in your individual role in an organisation. So we need to. You know why aren't more people doing it? We want to see people go on this journey and you know we're here to help do that.
Speaker 1:And I will say something else on that right, because let's say, right, you've helped this individual, you're a manager, you're a leader, you've inspired this person. They've grown and developed, they've got all these great skills. And then let's say they're now a manager and leader who are now influencing other people. That's what those people have given to those people who have grown and developed. They're inspiring not just those people, but they're inspiring other people through the people they've inspired but that's, that's it.
Speaker 2:And it gives me goosebumps when you say that because it's the ripple effect, right, the ripple effect of one small act. So that manager that I'm, you know that I'm particularly remembering he could have just chosen not to because it wasn't in his daily, you know, priorities, or yeah, it was taking too much time to focus on the bottom line and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:There's always, you know, something pulling us away, but it the ripple effect of that one action of you know, supporting that person well so that they thrive in their career, or hiring that person, or training your team. The ripple effect of that training for everybody, you know, it's invaluable.
Speaker 1:It is, it definitely is. I was going to build something off from that but I completely forgot. No, no, it's all cool, it's all cool. It'll probably come back to me, but yeah, I think it's, you know, helping. You know, sometimes I look at it and's like man and it doesn't matter if you're neurodivergent or not, but like creating, you know, being a leader to create other leaders you know, I think that's what I'm really big on.
Speaker 1:But you know what actually blows me away? I do get a lot of people coming up to me going oh man, you're so inspiring. You inspire me, man, and I don't even realise because I'm just being me. Do you know what I mean? And it almost makes me embarrassed sometimes. But I think this is the key thing If someone can take away just something little, that can make such a huge difference for that person in the long run.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you know that's the power of what we're doing here, because it will help obviously that person for you know, as a lifelong impact. But then the ripple effect of you know, we know the data and the stats around, working in a diverse team and a neurodiverse team is higher morale and you know, better communication and you know, people stay longer and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:And so the data tells the story that if you create this culture, foster an inclusive workplace within your team, or, you know, if you have more, you know a department or whatever it might be, or even just in the way that you work with your colleagues, that will have, you know, a ripple effect on everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. We are getting close to the end, so we'll get through this question. So what do you think needs to happen next in the neurodiversity employment space?
Speaker 2:it's a big question. I love it though, um. So I think, look, obviously we've spoken a lot about awareness. There's a lot of education happening. Then needs to be more, but we need to go from on, from beyond just awareness raising to embedding neuro inclusion into policies, like I said, all leadership performance frameworks, um, and you know, at the end of all of my training I give you know I like to sort of think that there's a bit of a call to action or something people can go away and do, because education is achieving one objective of raising awareness and helping people work better together. But you know what next? How can? We can keep pushing the needle, um to create truly neuro-inclusive workplaces, and I think that brings it back to involving the um, the voices of neurodivergent individuals, in those decisions, and so some organizations have ergs, for example, but you, that's critical, whatever that might look like, involving people with lived experience and including their voices in the changes, or you know the work that you're doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a lot of talk and you know, obviously, for me, being a neurodivergent leader, a lived experience leadership and using your voice as a, as a neurodivergent leader, to, to, to start the conversation and to make it a comfortable, you know, a comfortable place where people can come forward and feel safe to disclose if they want to, but removing the stereotype of neurodiversity in leadership, because that's, you know, this is the stuff that will once again create a ripple effect and inspire others to, you know, use their voices. So we want to have more leaders speak up and create this culture of change like this one Can.
Speaker 1:I add on to that in a way. Yeah, so I'm glad you let me do that. That made me joking. I made a joke, I'm just taking the piss. Another big thing I would say is definitely the utilisation of technology. I think, for me personally, technology has just completely changed my life. I think you were talking before about your attention to detail. You can miss that A lot of the time. Now I will run things through, like you know, chat, gpt or whatever like that. Or even if I'm wanting to write a blog, for example, right, I know exactly what I want in that blog, so I will just put everything I want into that blog. It won't be in order, or anything like that. Then I go turn this into a blog for me and boom you know it makes my life so much easier.
Speaker 1:I don't have to ring up my mom and go hey, mom, can you check this? Oh, what the hell? It's 10 o'clock at night. You know what I mean, and I think this is but the the thing I'm sort of getting at is that what I'm finding with some workplaces is they're often not you know, they're not utilizing the technology that is available for their um, uh employees and it's like, and they're worried about like, um, you know cyber threats and all that. It's like and they're worried about like you know cyber threats and all that it's like. Well, start looking into it, because this is productivity that you're losing because you're not utilising that technology.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, I mean, there's so many. We can't list all the apps and all the tools that are around. No way. We're so lucky to live in this space and time that is enabling people to work through some of the challenges that they were typically struggling with behind the scenes before, or you know, and so, as you say, like just the amount of work that went into that, um, yeah, but there's, we are very lucky to be in that, in that space and time to to aid um, where you know the direction of where we're heading in terms of well, I feel so free, I feel free.
Speaker 1:I feel free now, you know.
Speaker 2:I feel that blockage. I totally feel the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there are times.
Speaker 2:I will just say I do want to say one more thing in terms of the direction we're heading. I think, like I alluded to before, organisations are slowing down on those recruitment campaigns that we used to run because people want to organise sorry workplaces, want to set up neuro-inclusive workplaces, and I totally that is the way. So you've got to build it. You've got to build it before they come right. You've got to build the environment so that people enter a workplace that is safe and understanding.
Speaker 2:But I will say this on the opposite side to that thinking, those programs that we used to run, like we said, you know it produced a lot of data, it produced a lot of um, it got it changed, it pushed the needle in this space because it was, it was well um covered, there was a lot of um talk about it. It got organizations changing their mindset and shift their thinking and it made it a priority and it demonstrates the impact at your organization and at your team about the impact of not only neuro-inclusive hiring but neuro-inclusion in general. And so you know we'd be encouraging organisations to go back to thinking about the benefits of proactively hiring neurodivergent individuals because obviously, once again, there's that ripple effect. But you've got that data at the end.
Speaker 1:And can I say one more thing on that right? To say one more thing on that right if places are sort of like stepping away from what you used to do, for example, and they're more going, hey look, we want to be more inclusive and implement, um, uh, being more inclusive in our hiring methods, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:You've done your job, yes, you know what I mean you've done your job, you know what I mean yeah so yeah, I think you know we're heading in a direction that's moving away from that, but I would like to see that sort of come back and because, yeah, the, the, it's, the data demonstrates the impact for the team, for the organization and, obviously, the individual. You get the training whilst you do that. You, you know so there's so many outcomes that come from that initiative.
Speaker 2:But yeah, like I said, I think you know we're heading in a direction of leaders paving the way in terms of using their voices.
Speaker 1:That's what it's all about. Yeah, lived experience, that's what it's all about.
Speaker 2:And bringing employers on board to make the changes that need to be made.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally Vicky. You are awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. Now, if people want to connect with you and be like man, I want to get on the Vicky Little train right here where can they find you?
Speaker 2:So obviously on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn, but our website, specialisterncomau. We've got some great case studies on there. We, you know, come and have a look to see the work that we've done in terms of not only the individuals who we've supported into work but the employers that we've worked with. There's some great docu-series on there called Come as you Are. If you want to watch something, if you're more visual, jump on there and have a look and then, you know, reach out to us to have a chat, to have a chat.
Speaker 1:Cool, awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming along and look for anyone who's been listening. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages or check us out on anywhere you listen to your podcast. Thank you very much for Vicky Little for joining us today. My name's Will Wheeler. Thank you Till next time. No, problem.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me.