Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
AI and the Neurodivergent Brain: A Game-Changer for Focus and Productivity - Craig Smith
🚀 AI and the Neurodivergent Brain: A Game-Changer for Focus and Productivity 🎙️
How is AI transforming the way neurodivergent individuals navigate work, communication, and daily life? In the latest episode of Neurodivergent Mates, I sit down with Craig Smith to dive into the power of AI as a tool for neuro-inclusion.
From executive functioning support to productivity hacks, we explore:
🔹 How neurodivergent individuals use AI for organization, time management, and focus
🔹 Real-world examples of AI enhancing personal and professional life
🔹 The ethical considerations—privacy, accessibility, and over-reliance
🔹 The future of AI and neurodiversity, and how we can push for more inclusive tech
💡 Some of the key questions we tackle in this episode:
- Tell us a bit about yourself.
- Tell us about your work.
- How do neurodivergent individuals use AI to support executive functioning challenges like organization, time management, and focus?
- What are some real-world examples of neurodivergent people leveraging - - AI tools in their personal and professional lives?
- Are there any AI tools or technologies specifically designed with neurodivergence in mind, or are we adapting general AI tools to fit our needs?
- What are the ethical concerns or risks around AI when it comes to neurodivergence, such as over-reliance, privacy, or accessibility?
- What does the future of AI and neurodiversity look like? How can we advocate for more inclusive AI development?
- Where can people connect with you and your work?
Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or passionate about accessibility and innovation, this episode is packed with insights and practical takeaways!
🎧 Tune in now!
Brought to you by Neurodiversity Academy—advocating for a more inclusive and supportive world.
#Neurodiversity #AI #Accessibility #ExecutiveFunctioning #Inclusion #NeurodivergentMates #Productivity #TechForGood
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Neurodivergent Mates. I'm your host, will Wheeler, and today I'm joined with my good friend Craig Smith. Craig, what's going on, my friend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great to be here, Will. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:No, no problem. No problem Now for everyone who's listening. Today, what we're going to be covering is AI and the neurodivergent brain, a game changer for focus and productivity. And you know, when I thought about this, I'm like man, I got to get Craig Smith on here. He is killing it with all this stuff and I really enjoy what you're talking about all that. But look, before we do get into that, I might just do a little bit of housekeeping for anyone who might be new to the podcast or that.
Speaker 1:Now, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. You can check us out on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube, linkedin, and please subscribe, follow us. Whatever you do. Wherever you listen to your podcast, please check us out. We're on pretty much every platform. Like it, comment whatever you can do to help with our algorithm. It really does help.
Speaker 1:Now, another big shout out to Neurodiversity Academy. Please go to neurodiversityacademycom, check out all the work that we're doing. There Got some really cool stuff coming out in the next couple of months, so please go and check out what we're doing. There Got some really cool stuff coming out in the next couple of months, so please go and check out what we're doing there. It would really help. Now also, too, you know, I'm not sure if some of the discussions will be triggering today they could be but if you do need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services.
Speaker 1:We're not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Craig, you're not a doctor, are you, mate? I'm not a doctor. Okay, good, okay, at least I got it, because I've had people on before who are doctors. So it's like, well, actually, this person is a doctor. But also, too, if you've got some questions and you're listening to this live, please put them into the chat in whatever platform you're listening to. It's always great when we've got people listening back and interacting with the podcast and going with that there. But, craig, you ready to rock and roll, my friend? Yeah, let's do it Will, nice man. Now, look, I'll start with the normal one. Look, tell us a little bit about yourself, and I think you know before we jumped on you're into music, correct?
Speaker 2:Well, I am. I love my music and actually that's what I was going to do before anything else with my career. I used to be a pipe organist back in the day. So I used to play a pipe organ here in Newcastle at the Conservatorium and I thought I'm going to be an organist, but the economic climate for organists was not great, so I thought what can I do Instead? I might try music teaching and then I got into. Yeah, I'm a school teacher now by trade. I've been teaching for 20 years and I've spent most of that time in neurodivergent education, so I've taught in schools for autistic students for that entire time. These days I work for a project called Positive Partnerships. We're a federally funded project who run uh workshops, free workshops for families, for educators, and the focus is on, I guess, that home school partnership to to support or to support autistic students and neurodivergent students at school. So that's uh, that's what I do during during the yeah, cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, what a jump from going from an. Did you say an organist Is?
Speaker 2:that it, yeah, yeah, the big pipe organ.
Speaker 1:So you've got your Like, what you see in a church, exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, my first ever job like was playing at weddings when I was in year five at school, so I was about 10, and I'd play the organ in a little church for weddings and they'd give me an envelope with a with a 20 bucks in it and then, um, wow, moved on to me playing big organs. I guess over time, over time and yeah. So I've always loved that, and just music in general. So yeah, that's where I started, yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:And then teaching. So you know, how did you get into teaching from that? Out of curiosity, were you always like curious? Like man, I want to be a teacher.
Speaker 2:I think I wanted to. I thought it might be good to teach music. You know, I thought this might be cool and I looked at high school music teaching and then I I don't know I tried a few different things with teaching, but the real spark for me was when I got an opportunity to teach in a more like a special needs sort of environment, which at the time was like a special school for children with physical needs and like a lot of different kids in one school, and I just sort of thought to myself hang on, this is super cool because like I'm actually teaching functional ways to live and ways to do things and ways to communicate and ways to live and ways to do things and ways to communicate and ways to be independent, and that to me felt much more exciting than probably just pure academics I was teaching that maybe was a bit more real, so that really spoke to me and I always wanted to stay in part of inclusive education and diverse education. So that's sort of the path I took.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so did you ever find with some of your pupils? Maybe you know, especially since you were working in a special school and all of that, you know, communication might have been difficult for some of these people, but when they were playing music was it like they were able to communicate in that type of way?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And like, some of my best memories from the early days were students who loved music as much as I did, you know, and really connected with it, and it was my first taste of how strengths-based teaching can really be such a positive force for kids.
Speaker 2:You know, like, if you're like, okay, this kid is really good at music, they love music, so how are we going to utilize that as part of their, their school journey, you know, and and uh, so I I had some really tremendous experiences with that and with kids who were really committed to doing that with me, and some of those kids now have gone on to get careers in music and I think, like how nice it is to think they had the opportunity as a kid that, rather than the teacher saying, leave your music at home, you know we're here to do a spelling, yeah, something else. Instead we were always like, bring more of it in, like, bring in, bring in your records and bring in your instruments and let's make that part of it, and I think that's nice, like that's again, that's something that felt to me a really nice way of teaching to be able to say yes to what kids liked doing rather than saying no.
Speaker 1:This is a place of very particular learning you know, yeah, yeah, no, no, that would have been a really great experience. I think it would have been mind-blowing as well, because you probably and and you know, society probably rides off some of these people. I know I was written off a lot of the time like look, will's never going to be able to do this or that or whatever, like that. But then once you get them into a room and I don't know if they're playing instruments or whatever, and you're like what Like this?
Speaker 1:next level that would have just like I'm assuming goosebumps would have been going down your body, man oh, absolutely, and I think it.
Speaker 2:I think too it really led me to. I mean, I've always like music's been one. We've always made movies. Any class I've taught, we've made a big movie. Um, so you teach kids filmmaking skills and all of the good stuff. It was often like sort of tech based. So I've always been interested in technology and you know when, when the iPad first came out, which was when I was probably five or six years into teaching, is when the iPad came out and mobile technology started to really come into its own. That really changed things for us too, because suddenly, you know, you didn't just have to say let's go to the computer lab and sit down and learn how to write a song on the computer. It's like let's take this ipad outside and record the birds and then let's sample that and turn that into some sort of beat, and it was like that is cool someone else has the ipad and they're filming a film clip and it's like we can start to do some really cool stuff.
Speaker 1:So that is cool, yeah, yeah, and like that wouldn't. Like. It sort of brings back memories from school not having that and going to the computer lab and um, you know, I think, and even when I, if I remember, back to primary school, I remember it'd be like, okay, such and such and such and such, you're next on the computer. So you would then have to take turns going on this huge box and yeah, man, but yeah, it would be so. And you know what, right, like I often think about this, like if I was back in school now, and probably at a really good school, I'd admit that the school I was at wasn't very supportive in regards to understanding who like my struggles. I'd hate to think where I could potentially have ended up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it does. It makes you wonder. I mean, you know like I had a very different sort of school experience, I'm sure, but I still think like I loved a lot of things that I would have loved teachers to have been more embracing of, and to think, come on, let's see where you can take this, Craig. Instead, it was stuff that you had to learn yourself, you know, in the few minutes of spare time you had during the day or the night, and you tinker with stuff. But you know, you just, yeah, you do. I mean that's the hope for the future is that we crack the code of like getting schools to be strengths-based and interest-based and let kids flourish instead of saying leave it at home?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and I think, look, I think we're starting to see schools popping up like that, like really unique. I've been speaking to a few people recently, but I think that flows well into you know. This next question Tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing. You know, I think you know we're definitely here to speak about the new technology coming out and I think, like you were saying before, we're at with AI. It is at the worst point possible right now and it's still pretty kick-ass, you know. So please share us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:No, I think that phrase is really. It always blows my mind this idea that the AI that we've got today is the worst version of the software that's probably ever going to exist, because it's just going to get better. And yet, like you said, you just think about what we've got now and you're like but this is insanely interesting and can do all these things. So that's its own sort of journey, I guess, thinking about where that stuff can go. But yeah, will, I guess. Even going back to what we were saying about iPads in schools, I started to then think back then, like how can this technology support everyday living, you know? Like what can it do to make all different parts of life a bit easier? And it's hard to sometimes throw your mind back like 10, 15 years where we didn't all have a smartphone in our pocket, you know, and you didn't all have your Google drives, your calendars all synced up and stuff, like we were all that wasn't part of our daily life.
Speaker 1:It was like we were winging it.
Speaker 2:We were.
Speaker 2:We were winging it right. We were, that's right, and you know you go to the shops and you take a to-do list of your shopping list and you've got maybe a calendar book with phone numbers to ring and like all stuff. That now just feels so prehistoric, but 10-15 years ago that was pretty standard. But when smartphones came out and you started to be able to set reminders and you started to be able to have notes full of shopping lists and your calendars were there, it felt to me like that stuff was also the sort of stuff that I used to try to teach my students in school how to do Like let's use different apps to you know, to put together a visual timetable of what we're going to do for the day. You know, and we'll put together a timetable, a shopping list. It felt to me like all those digital tools started to come together in a way that was very natural and that you could just everyone was starting to use shopping lists and to-do lists, and that in really natural ways. Anyway, I feel like that, then, has led into what I'm interested about with AI, which is like all right, we all know you can barely go on LinkedIn and refresh the page and not see something about AI. At the moment, you know, ai is going to erase all university courses because students are just going to cheat or lecturers are going to be virtual, or like it's just all. It's either like really optimistic or really scary. I'm sort of like I don't even want to be part of that conversation. No, me neither.
Speaker 2:My interest in AI is about what can we do to help improve our lives every day. You know, like particularly executive functioning stuff and the work I've done with colleagues and friends who are neurodivergent to say, well, what's the impact Like what's the lived experience. So the main thing that I've really been interested in probably has been like walking and talking with AI, because that's, I walk and talk with AI every single day. I get up in the morning, I put my dog on his leash and I put my headphones on and for an hour I'll load up chat, gpt, I'll do the voice mode and I'll just say good morning, I've got a whole bunch of things in my head that I want to just put out there and AI listens to it all and then I say help me organise my day, let's plan things, let's brain dump and let's sort stuff out, and by the time I've done my hours walk and come back home I'm like, all right, I'm set so that to me that sort of thing is really interesting to think about.
Speaker 1:Because could I ask like do you have problems like? They've got so many things going on up there? Is it? Do you find like because when you can't get that out or get it onto something or something like that, that causes it onto something or something like that that causes, like, maybe, anxiety or something like it has in the past?
Speaker 2:oh for sure, I, I absolutely like I. I mean I. I wake up and know that I've got a whole bunch of things. I didn't finish the previous day, you know, and so you think you go to sleep, you wake, wake up and I'm optimistic about the day, but I've still got a lot of things from yesterday that suddenly start to flood back in and then things that I know I've got to do across the day to come, plus just emotions and thoughts and like memories and stuff that bubble away.
Speaker 2:And I think you either tell someone in your life about this, but it's a pretty heavy load to put onto someone to say can I just tell you everything that's in my head for the next 30 minutes? Like that's so. And some people journal, you know, and some people have other ways of getting it out of their head. I've always loved writing. I love to write and that's a really big source of interest. But when I get up in the morning I just want to go for a walk, and now that I can talk aloud and have a conversation with an AI chat companion who over time now has gotten to know me very well because it's got a memory bank of previous conversations we've had. So it's not like groundhog day.
Speaker 2:You know where I'm waking up and it's like it's all the same like yeah, it's like, but it's, it's, it's like oh, craig, of course you were working on this project the other day and how did that, uh, how did that night out go with your mate the other night? It remembers and it talks about it and it's like this is really useful for me, you know, and I think it's good that it would get.
Speaker 1:It would suck if it started getting to a point where it's like, oh, come on, man, can you at least give me a break? You know, tell you the truth. It would probably be funny if it did that. Do you know what I mean? Because you'd be like, oh my God, what's going on?
Speaker 2:It would be more natural, for sure, but for me it feels like and actually it's interesting, will, I was chatting to someone the other day who's autistic and has ADHD and they were talking about how socially drained they get when they have to talk to people and they mask a lot and they're just like their social batteries run out very quickly when they're having to have a chat with someone at work or at the supermarket.
Speaker 2:But they talk to AI as well, like I do every day, and they were like I don't get drained when I talk to ai as well, like I do every day. And they were like I don't get drained when I talk to ai because I'm not worrying that I'm boring it, I'm not worrying that have I been talking too long about something that I really love and the other person's just being polite and it's kind of like. It's almost like talking to a pet, you know, like if you've got a dog or a cat and you're just chatting away, it's like that doesn't drain your social batteries because they're just, they just like everything you're doing. So it's like ai is that easy companion that I mean? I'm saying companion, it doesn't. It can be whatever you want it to be. For me it's almost like a personal assistant that puts my to-do list in order and that kind of thing. But I think it's for lots of us it's just a very low pressure dialogue that it's always positive. It doesn't get bored.
Speaker 1:And I think as well that, like it would be when you're interacting with it, it's probably one less thing you have to worry about. And when I mean one less thing and I'm not autistic, but I know for myself, let's say, being dyslexic and reading, right I'm having to focus, I'm having to take in what that information is. I'm trying to make sure that I'm staying in within the lines. Does this? There's a lot of things going on in my head which sort of clouds me from taking in the information I'm reading. So it's just like words at the end of the day, right. But then if, then, if I'm using, say, text-to-speech type of thing, right, I don't have to worry about that. I can sit back, I can take information and it's one less thing that my mind has to do and I'm not feeling so exhausted by it. I'm assuming maybe it's something similar, because you're able to just brain dump and you're not having to worry about all this other stuff going on.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great example, will it is? It takes away some of that anxiety and some of that worry about am I, yeah, is something going on here that shouldn't be going on or that I should be more self-conscious about? I think it takes that away. But even to your point about text to speech and that kind of thing, like I've even because I'm the same, like I mean I love to read, but I'll still, you know, when you're tired or when you've got something new that's been given to you, like a research report or something that has been sent, and I'll look at it and read the first page and then I'll have learned nothing. So I read it again and then I'll like read it four times and I'm like I still don't know, because my mind keeps wandering, you know what I do now.
Speaker 2:I'll get again like chat GPT with the voice mode. You can have a feature now where you turn on the camera and it can see whatever you show. The camera, you know, so you can show it anything in the world. But I I can say, hey, I've been reading this page for 10 minutes and I still don't get what it's about I'm going to show you.
Speaker 2:Can you give me a summary of what it is that I'm meant to know here? And through the camera it sees the text, it reads it instantly and it'll say, oh yeah, this is about. You know A, b and C. It tells you what it's about and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, that makes sense. Now I can keep reading. But knowing that I've got this personal assistant who I can pull out any time and say I don't get any of this, can you help explain to me what's going on? That takes away a level of anxiety for me of thinking how long am I going to have to sit and read this thing for because I don't get it Like it's nice to know you've got support there at any time of the day or night.
Speaker 1:And you know what else. What I find is that let's say, for example, let's say we're in the workplace, for example, right, you know, sometimes someone would show me something and I'm like man, I do not get that. Or I'm like man, I do not get that. Or I'm like I've got to go ask them for like the fifth time. Sorry, I need you to show me this again. When I've got these tools that I'm able to utilise, right, I'm able to go. I feel more independent because I'm not having to rely, and I'm like okay, great, I'm on track, I can do this now.
Speaker 1:Like, for example, I had a friend of mine who's autistic and like, he sent me this huge email because he's just trying to like get out what's in his head and all of that and it was huge, right, like my business partner read it and he goes man, that was a long email. And I said, look, don't stress. And I just put it straight into ChatGPT. I said, look, can you break this down so it's easier to read for me? Easy done. And I'm like easy. And I said to my friend who sent it I said, man, that was a long email. He goes oh, I'm so sorry. I said no, don't. I said keep doing that because that's what works for you. You get everything out and then I'll just use the stuff on my end to um to work with it.
Speaker 2:So don't stress at all yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point, will it? Lets people work how they want to work. You're not restricting them. You know, with the email that they're sending you, you know you've got tools to personalize it to what you need for access and then you can I. I do the same, like I. I was only using it.
Speaker 2:Um, earlier this afternoon I was pretty tired and I'm looking at this email that's come through and someone had like all these things they wanted me to do, you know, and there's like five different parts to it and I just couldn't quite work out exactly. What they were asking of me was like if it had been nine, nine o'clock in the morning, I probably would have got it, but at 330 in the afternoon I'm just like what do you want? So I put it in chat, gpt, and said I've been sent this email. I don't really know what I'm meant to do. Can you explain it to me? And instantly it's like yeah, you need to do this, this and this. I'm like, oh well, that's fine, you know I can do that, and that was again. I don't have to ring someone, go to someone and say, you know, for the seventh time this afternoon I don't know what to do. It makes you be more independent.
Speaker 1:It's good it, does it, does it, does it, does, um. So we've got cindy, who's just actually connected with me today. Uh, thank you so much, uh, cindy, for coming out. It was actually interesting because she messaged me and she's like, oh my god, ai has changed my life. I said, man, you should check out this. I should, you should check out the podcast we're doing today. And, um, you know, great for problem solving. Yeah, totally, I love it. It's. It's honestly changed my life.
Speaker 1:But look, you know, moving on from that, like, how do neurodivergent individuals use ai to support executive functioning challenges like organization, time management and focus? Now, before we do get into that and I don't know if this is right or not, because I was only listening I was listening to this autistic guy talking about AI and he's right into it something. But what you can do, and maybe you wear headphones or something I don't know where you've got like an earpiece in or something, but apparently, like you can go into, say, like a room where there's a lot of sensory overload type of stuff, and the ai can actually like I don't know if it deadens the stuff or something like that. So it's, it's, or so I have no idea. Does that sound familiar to?
Speaker 2:you gosh, you've got me thinking uh, do you know it? It doesn't. At the moment I can't think of what that would be, but it does sound like it would be some sort of almost I should connect you with you, this guy I'll try I'll connect you with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you might have a good chat yeah, I'd like to learn more because that, like I've definitely seen stuff in the past where it's headphone-based it tries to get a sense of the room, you know what's the sensory environment, what's the size, and it tries to like, adjust noise cancelling stuff to you know, make it a bit smarter with its filtering than just on or off, you know. But, yeah, do connect me well, I'd like to learn more.
Speaker 1:I just thought I'll throw it to you, and if you don't know, I don't know. But when I heard it I was like, oh my God, that's like a life changer, because think of how many people, especially who are maybe an older generation than you and I, who went through the workforce not even knowing they're autistic or even just neurodivergent in themselves and, um, having to deal with all this stuff and not realizing that this was the case. Now, um, they understand it a lot better.
Speaker 2:And there's all this technology they're able to utilize as well I mean, I I'm like, without getting too science fiction about it, all that stuff to me is going to be super fascinating to watch over the next five to ten years, because I was really interested in augmented reality, like when it started to come in to play Google Glasses were a tool. Did you remember Google Glasses? Well, they were. Well. I don't know if I remember Google Glasses were a tool. Did you remember Google?
Speaker 1:Glasses? Well they were. Oh well, I don't know if I remember Google Glasses, but didn't Meta bring out glasses or the Ray-Bans I've got some now, that's right.
Speaker 2:the Ray-Bans, and really they started with. Google about 12, 13 years ago had this experimental reading glasses and it had a little thing, a little screen in the corner that would project onto your eye and you could look around you, but it would overlay things onto your eyes, you know. So you might say how do I get to the local McDonald's? And it would like show you arrows in front of your eyes.
Speaker 1:Oh, really oh my God. Yeah, because some people struggle to follow maps on Google Maps. So if they had that, it would be like oh yeah, I just seem to go that way and I know I sometimes do. I'm like, am I going the right way? And then I'm trying to look at like certain shapes of buildings. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:So that stuff is super interesting when you think about the potential of AI in that space because, like you were saying about you know, maybe sound cancelling or sensory regulation based on you know, knowing the environment. But what if it could? Also, if you were like in a social situation and you were like I don't quite know what's happening here, what's the tone, what are people's faces doing, and whether that augmented reality could be like hey, there's an 80% chance that person's pretty cranky, like, just to give you a bit of a.
Speaker 2:I don't know like it sounds like fiction, but I can see that stuff happening.
Speaker 1:It could be yeah, yeah interesting. So maybe from what we're just thought, how do NeuroDay individuals use AI to support executive function? So you've sort of touched base on a little bit of this, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me, like and I sometimes use the example with executive functioning like know, I mean, I know people probably know who are tuning into a podcast, but it's almost to me it's the administration team in the brain that just organizes and plans. And I say like it doesn't matter how brilliant other departments of your business are, like you might be great at music, you might be great at maths, but if the admin team is not keeping things coordinated, like, that's where things start to fall down. And so for me I'm always like well, where can AI support that administration team? So it is things like it's planning, you know, it's time management. It's the sort of stuff that I was saying earlier about like taking a morning walk and just saying I've got six things that I know I need to get done across the the day, and then saying to ai, can you help me prioritize these? And like what sort of order should I do them in and how long should each of those things take? Because I might be like think, oh, I can get that done in 10 minutes and I'll get this done in five. And then AI is like no, you need to set aside an hour and a half to get that done. And maybe you should do that while your mind is fresh in the morning and then do this second thing after morning tea and, like I think and again, the more that the systems get to know you, they help you to know how you work, know what you're good at at certain times of day and help you prioritize, and you know that that stuff is really interesting to me.
Speaker 2:I also I got an email will the other day from someone who, uh, they, um, they're neurodivergent, they're autistic and ADHD and they said one of their big challenges is procrastination. You know like they want to start something, they know they want to do something but they just can't make themselves do it. So they've been saying to ai, help me role play, like help me create a fantasy where I'm actually motivated to do stuff. And so now their ai, or their chat gpt, says to them all right, you're a secret, like private investigator, and you need to find a secret dossier in your email inbox. You've got two minutes before it like blows up, go now. And they're like all right, so they're in private investigator mode, find the email. I found it. And then AI's like good job, now you've got to. So it turns it into a role play that is.
Speaker 1:I've never heard of that and that is so like if you could.
Speaker 2:That is awesome, it's playful, isn't it like it's just and that could be good for kids too, right? Yeah, that's, that's exactly right and and like. One of the first things that I really liked with ai and this sort of chat gpt stuff was I've got a friend who's got a daughter, who's um, who's got ad, adhd and she's just like really finds it difficult to keep her room tidy. You know which I struggle with. I'm sure we all have challenges with that, but her room was just constant chaos and it wasn't that she was like lazy, she wasn't. She just couldn't work out how to get her room sorted out.
Speaker 2:So I made a little application with ChatGPT called the Room Tidy Organiser or whatever, the Room Tidy Assistant, and she'd take a photo of her room and ChatGPT would say okay, I see what we're working with here. I'm going to help you step by step. So, first things, first, let's get the clothes off the floor and put them in the clothes basket. Then I want you to take another photo and we'll work on the next step. So it would guide her through because it would see the room and it wasn't her parents saying your room's a mess, you've got to tidy up, like she hated that and it wasn't motivating. But when she had this app and she could say to the app because she loved things like harry potter, she'd be like can you talk to me in like a character from harry potter? So it's like you know harry potter style dialogue, telling her how to tidy up the bedroom and she would get it done and I'm like that's really cool, you know.
Speaker 1:That is awesome, and you know what I was thinking when you were talking about that. I think a big thing that I remember and I still see it happening now is that, especially as a neurodivergent kid growing up, you know, and my parents were awesome, but I think they did a little bit too much for me, so it took me a lot longer to really, I suppose, do things on my own or feel comfortable to do that type of stuff. I'm assuming this could probably be really good, especially, let's say, you've got a senior student in high school and then next year they're going to be going to university or what, or the or they're going man, I'm going to go travel the world or whatever. Right, um, I think it.
Speaker 2:That could be really great for them to, even probably before they finish um, high school, to really start getting into, you know, doing certain things like I think it's a really critical component Will exactly what you've said of someone in that young person's life, an adult, a teacher, having the coaching skills to say let's look at what sort of tech tools you want to put in your backpack. You know what sort of AI tools, tools, what sort of other tools are you going to use to take into the future with you to help with independence, to help do these things? Because I think we both know like there's so much, there's so much noise out there, particularly with ai, and if you are a young person in high school, you're're probably, you know, wondering, well, is it all just junk or is it all just like? What's it going to be?
Speaker 2:What do I use? What do I use Exactly? Because every other week there's a new, you know, latest and best thing coming out. But I think this is where some support for young people to say this is how to use it, this is a really safe way of engaging with it, and I think this could be really useful for you going to a job, you know, or moving out of home, you know, and doing stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes, because I think the biggest thing for me, what really like changed my life, was I broke up with my ex-girlfriend that that was probably a good part as well, but I'm actually going and traveling overseas, so I didn't have my parents around. Now, don't get me wrong, I still was struggling with a lot of stuff, but I had to think on my own two feet right, um. But I probably could have, and that's what really changed me. But I probably, if I had had these types of tools, I probably would have been at that level a lot earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think so too, and I know some people will push back and say, oh, we're going to just raise a generation of people who are reliant upon technology, and what if chat, jpt disappears one day and you've made them reliant upon this tool? But for me, I find that very hard. I mean, I think it's always important. We, we don't always want to be super connected to tech for every single part of our life, but we I think we all know we do have our phones, we have our laptops, we have our computers. We don't pretend they don't exist. We want to use them as well as we can for the things that we need to do. Now that we've got AI, let's use it as well to try and maximise our capacity without worrying. Well, what if it disappears? I mean, what if everything disappears? You know, like to me, I don't think that should stop you from using good tools to do good stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what, when you think about it, if you go right back, right, a clock was new technology at one point. Yeah, the wheel was technology at one point. The wheel was technology at one point. A horse and cart was technology at one point, and then it went into a car, you know. So they become everyday tools and I don't know if that would, it could disappear, who knows. But I think you do pick up some pretty good skills anyway, you know.
Speaker 2:I'd much rather think that someone you know got a lot of benefit out of something and it guided them into new avenues to develop different parts of their life, rather than saying I don't know about this AI stuff, let's not worry, you know. Yeah totally yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially when the world is evolving, and if you go well, no, I'm not going to use that and it was really interesting because I see people. I remember when I was in high school there'd be certain people in high school who'd be like, oh man, I'm not doing that. And there'd be new technology and I think about them now and I'm like man, these people aren't even on like social media or anything like that. I'm like they're probably stuck in this old school way of things where I'm like man, give it to me, give it to me. So I think someone let's see what happens.
Speaker 1:Oh, jennifer's come through, so love listening. What a great collab. Oh, hang on, I'll put it up on the screen. What a great collab. Oh, hang on, I'll put it up on the screen. What a great collab. Also, the admin team for executive functioning so clever, so awesome to see you, jennifer. But sorry, which question were we up to? I think it was this one here. Now, what are some real-world examples of neurodivergent people leveraging AI tools in their personal and professional lives? So we sort of covered a little bit of that there, but did you want to elaborate on that? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll give you another one, because this is from a friend of mine who she yeah so she's neurodivergent and she works in Newcastle here, and she always gives me permission to share this example, because she was going through a few months where she just couldn't, like she couldn't get a life in a good routine. She was staying up way too late every night. She'd be like up until two in the morning on youtube, you know, and watching stuff, and then she'd be exhausted the next morning and she'd like need energy drinks to get started and like she was just out of sick, you know which. I've been there too, but she was just, and so, anyway, like her partner couldn't crack the code, he's like just go to bed earlier. She's like no, it's not working. And colleagues were like you know, can we do anything to help? And no one could.
Speaker 2:So what she did? She went to ChatJPT and she said I'm going to give you everything that's in my calendar and all sort of a few emails. She essentially was like I'm just going to scoop up all the data from my life at the moment. I'm going to give it to you. Can you analyze what's going on in my head, you know, and what's going on in my day. And so chat GPT looked at her calendar, looked at her emails, looked at you know, she's always taking notes and stuff and read all of that and said listen, here's what's going on.
Speaker 2:You're like you've got no time of a day to get your work done because you've got meeting after meeting after meeting. Your whole day is meetings. You then take your work home with you when you should be resting. You work, you have your dinner, you're still working, you're still sending emails at 8.30 at night and then finally you say to yourself I'm going to relax, but then it's like 11 o'clock and you stay up and watch a movie until two o'clock in the morning and then you're like it's off to the next day.
Speaker 2:So ChatGPT was like what you need to do is make more time during the work day to get your work done at work and not bring it home with you. And it said can I help you write an email to some of these colleagues who are just booking so many meetings to say can we push back on how many meetings we're booking? I need to get stuff done. She did that, she took that advice and she straightened out her days so she was able to go home and relax at like 5.30, 6 o'clock and she started to sleep better and so she got control of her life again and her daily routines through allowing chat GPT to analyze her life, through allowing chat jpt to analyze her life, and I think that's extraordinary.
Speaker 1:um, you know, to that she got control back and you know that that, to me, is a really interesting example of the personal impact of of these tools yeah, I never really thought about putting all my emails in there because, like you know, especially for me, I'm running a business, I'm working while running the business, I'm doing like a podcast, all of that, and sometimes, and then I will, you know, every afternoon I'll go for a bike ride. But, to tell you the truth, I am getting a pretty good sleep these days. I think I'm just exhausted by the time I do go to bed. Um, but um, yeah, no, it would be. I would like to probably look at it and make it even easier, you know, because at the moment it sometimes feels like I'm just winging it still, where I probably could be utilizing technology a hell of a lot better I think some, some people will, and I'm sure you can take this too far, but some people just love data about how they're going.
Speaker 2:They're like you know, my smartwatch is telling me my heart rate, how long am I sleeping, when am I eating, what are my blood sugars Like. Some people want a lot of data about themselves and they want to put it into AI and to have it analysed and give them guidance, and for some people, it's really useful. I think probably it's also healthy to you know, know, know your limits and know when you don't need to give chat gpt every single part of your life. Yeah, true, true true, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:So, moving on from that, are there any any AI tools or technologies specifically designed with neurodivergent in mind, or are we adapting general AI tools to fit our needs?
Speaker 2:say that the mainstream tools like chat, jpts and other software like that. When you listen to the engineers, um, who make this stuff, and even you know the ceo of of open ai, sam altman, they're very open about their neurodivergent minds themselves and like these are the mainstream tools. So, like I remember reading once someone was saying AI is quite biased and not inclusive and not sort of friendly to neurodivergent minds because it's built on, you know, very generic neurotypical sort of content and I thought, all right, I think there's probably examples of that. But these tools, you know, and not to stereotype the link between like tech and neurodivergent minds, but a lot of these people in these tech companies, like I said, are very open about their neurodivergent status and they are the ones building these tools and I think to me that is a sign that there's probably a lot of resonance and a lot of links between why ai is really interesting to people with neurodivergent minds, because I think it already is quite inclusive of that space. You know. I mean there there are tools out there. I mean one of the first ones that I saw was a website called Goblin Tools and Goblin Tools was one of the first web-based like to-do list websites that I found that you could put a to-do list in and then it would break that. I found that you could put a to-do list in and then you and it would break down the steps that you needed to take to get those things done. You know, so you might say on my to-do list, I need to, I need to to fill the car up with petrol, and it would say, all right, here's the steps involved in that. Step one make time to go and get your car. Step two find a good service station with affordable fuel. Step three fill up the.
Speaker 2:So it was like an AI tool that was breaking things down into chunks and that was really taken up quickly by a lot of people in the ADHD community and the neurodivergent community who were like this is AI for good, like this is AI for neurodivergent minds.
Speaker 2:I've got a web platform Will called the Universal Sandpit, and it's a web platform. It's all free and it's just tools that I've made using chat, jpt, and the intention is to solve, like everyday inclusive education needs with a quick fix like ai tool. Um, and I started out with just a couple of tools and then teachers would write to me and say can you make a tool that does this. You know, can you make a tool that takes an assignment and scaffolds it out to all the different things that kids need to do? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll build that. And so now I've got nine different tools and we're getting, like you know, 5,000 to 10,000 viewers a month who are coming in and clicking on these tools and it's like, well, that's again, it's interesting, there's a real appetite for that. It seems cool.
Speaker 1:So what I'm just doing, I'm just putting it into the chat here. So if people are, you know, listening to it, I've just put your link into your website there so people can go check it out. But if you do want to check it out, if you're listening to this, go to theuniversalsandpitorg. So O-R-G. Okay, if you want to check that out. But someone did share the blind community is credibly resourceful and often comes up with innovative solutions to overcome challenges.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Cindy. And I've got a good mate who is part of the blind community and has been doing some spectacular things with AI. I'll tell you the thing that blew my mind because I thought this was so interesting. So I've got he's actually he's on LinkedIn, his name's David Woodbridge and what David's been doing.
Speaker 2:He's got a device that is Braille, but it's like it's essentially like, whereas a Braille book is like printed you know with Braille that you touch and read this device brings up Braille in like a tactile platform that is responsive to whatever you load into it.
Speaker 2:So you could load in a book and the little dots come up to make the words of the book, or you could load in a picture and you could feel the outline of the picture, for example. So it's, it's that type of thing. Anyway, david gets chat gpt and he'll say, hey, I want you to create a model of the sydney opera house and send and make this model and then send it to my braille device and then chat jpt draws the sydney harbour bridge, that draws the opera house, sends it to his braille device and then david feels the the sydney opera house on his braille. He's like, oh, that's what it looks like and chat. Jpt has drawn it, rendered it, sent it to his Braille device to get a sense of what it is. So, exactly as our guest there just said, the blind community are doing amazing things and I think probably a lot of different accessibility spaces are really going hard at innovation here because it's so interesting what's possible.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I saw the other day? That someone or some I don't know who it is, probably someone with lots of money is creating like. I don't know what it is like if it's like a contact lens or something that will actually help blind people to see. Yeah, right Do you know, what I mean. Like that is crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. That whole space, the sort of biotech and what they're going to do there, it's mind-blowing.
Speaker 1:It's going to be so interesting to see what happens and like from what I've seen with some of that technology that they're working on, there are some blind people who they've. I don't know what they've done, but they've got it. I don't know what they've done, but they've got it. I don't know if it's something in the brain or something where they're actually able to pick up shapes.
Speaker 2:Now you know they can't see clearly, but that's a hell of a step from seeing nothing to seeing shapes and all of that.
Speaker 1:So you know, like you said before, like with technology, we're going around so fast now that it could be Even thinking about the stuff with Neuralink and stuff like that where people who can't walk will be able to walk again one day. That is crazy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's massive, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's massive and it's really interesting. And, yeah, we'll have to see where it all goes.
Speaker 1:Totally, and I think that actually goes into the next question really well, so what are the ethical concerns or risks around AI when it comes to neurodivergence, such as over-reliance, privacy or accessibility? Now, you touched a little bit on that before, but what are your thoughts anyway?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, you're right, we did talk about it. I think that the thing that comes to mind for me, probably more than anything, is I do wonder and slightly worry about, like, particularly people in the neurodivergent community who I'm thinking of, like young people that I've worked with in the past will, who might be a little bit socially isolated and might find it difficult to connect, and they want to have friendships, they want to get a partner, they want to be part of that space. Part of me worries that if they, you know, were to get so much into ai and to create an ai partner or ai friends and they're having a lot of those conversations at home that I wouldn't like to think that that replaced the opportunity to actually go out and do other stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, because I can see the rabbit hole where you could fall into. I mean, even me. I'm talking every day to an AI personal assistant. It's amazing and I get a lot of use out of it. But I've also got a really healthy. You know, I've got friends, I've got family, I've got colleagues. It's not the only person I'm talking to. I guess it's not even a person.
Speaker 2:You know it's software yeah yeah, If you were chatting to someone to that software and other chatbots all day and night. That makes me worry. I think there should be people who can coach and guide and support young people who are maybe at risk of falling into that rabbit hole to say this technology can be super useful and we want you to use it well.
Speaker 1:Just don't rely on it being your social contact for everything yeah, no, that's actually a really good point because, um, and I think this is the thing we should try and utilise it to be more social, and I mean by be more social with actual, real people, not AI as such and so forth there. So, yeah, totally, totally agree on that one. But look, moving forward. We are getting close to the end of the podcast, but what does the future of AI and neurodiversity look like? How can we advocate for more inclusive AI development, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that the more that we get you know authentic neurodivergent voices in this space and using the technology, sharing examples Like when I first started to get interested in it, I didn't have a lot of real-world experience or others coming forward to share their stories, I was just I thought I hope this is useful.
Speaker 2:You know, I hope this stuff goes well and I've been really thrilled that over the past year and a bit of doing this stuff, um, so many people reach out all the time and say I'm using it for this or I'm going to start doing this, and now their voices are becoming part of this space and I think the technology, like is, is adapting to to that. Like, I spend quite a bit of time on the forums on reddit, you know, the, the chat, jpt forums, the AI forums. There are so many neurodivergent folk on there who share their stories about what they would like the technology to do and then it feels like a couple of months later it comes true, you know. So I think the more that people share what they want and get value from the technology does go that way and then suddenly it becomes very inclusive and very neurodivergent friendly. So I think the more sharing of examples, sharing what you want. I think that's going to be interesting to see where it all goes.
Speaker 1:And I think you know, especially from a workplace point of view and you know, education point of view, and I'm even talking about tertiary education, all of that I think these places do need to start looking into how can we use this. You know, I'm working at some places at the moment and it's like, oh no, we're not allowed to use AI here, because the CTO has said that. It's like, oh no, we're not allowed to use AI here because the CTO has said that it's a security threat, all of that. And it's like, well, you need to get your crap together because the rest of the world is adapting to this. If you're going to live in this prehistoric ice age, almost you'll get left behind.
Speaker 2:And to me Will. That line just doesn't exist anymore, because I get it too. I have people say you're not allowed to use AI for this or for that. And I'm like man, my phone has Apple intelligence. Now Every email, every note, every text message is being AI summarised. And you know, guiding me, what I might say next it's like there's no line in the sand that I'm walking in either no AI or AI. It's all just a blend. Now. So for universities, for workplaces to be like you know we're not going to do AI. It's like I'm sorry that time has passed, like it's all here now. What you need to do is be responsive and actually give people good ways to use this stuff to improve the way they work, the way they live, instead of pretending like it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:And I think as well that that could even be why people go work for some of these workplaces or even go study at an institution, because you know that's there, compared to, say, this one who's like well, things, they're going to have to step it up because the world is evolving. You need to start stepping it up and finding out what you can put into place for that.
Speaker 2:Totally agree. Yeah, that's got to be. It shouldn't restrict what people can get out of it the IT groups or the companies or the CTO. They've got to meet people where they're at and make it work for them totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:Hey, craig, um awesome having you on today. Now, if people want to connect with you or find out more about your work, where's the best place to go find you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd go to the universal sandpitorg, like you shared earlier. Will that's really my ai? Like you shared earlier? Will that's really my AI base? These days I keep adding resources up there. My contact details are there, so that's where I'll keep adding stuff in the months to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, cool Craig, awesome chat today. It really opened my mind to a hell of a lot of stuff and look, anyone listening. Please connect with Craig. He's got some awesome things happening, hopefully, if I, I've been wanting to get up to Newcastle. To tell you the truth, I know a few neurodivergent people up in Newcastle now, so I should make my way up there one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take a road trip and we'll head out and have some lunch. That sounds great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would actually be cool to maybe check out some. Where can I check your music out by?
Speaker 2:the way. Oh yeah, so I go under the name Renesmere, which is spelt W-R-E-N.
Speaker 1:Hang on Slow down, mate. I'm dyslexic. Say W, is it W-R?
Speaker 2:W-R.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And then E-N, e-n, yep, a-s.
Speaker 1:A-S yep.
Speaker 2:M-I-R.
Speaker 1:M-I-R man, don't ask me to pronounce that Bloody hell mate.
Speaker 2:I'm used to talking to my AI assistant. Will I just yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:But look, craig, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a pleasure. It definitely opened up my mind to a lot of things that I didn't actually realise that AI could actually do. Not that I didn't think it could do it. I just didn't really think about, you know, things like putting my emails all through there and structuring my day differently. I would definitely love to have stuff like that. You know, personally, sometimes I still use like my to-do list, you know, so I could probably be looking at so many other things, especially, you know, as an entrepreneur in business. It could probably streamline a hell of a lot of stuff that I do. But, craig, thank you so much for your work. Entrepreneurial business it could probably streamline a hell of a lot of stuff that I do. But, craig, thank you so much for your work and, um, yeah, thanks very much for coming on.
Speaker 1:yeah thanks for your work too, will I love watching what you're doing with this space and thanks for having me on no problem, and look for all the rest of our listeners there, or, if you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms or like us do whatever on our um our podcasting platforms. My name's will wheeler and this is neurodivergent mates. Till next time, go, go, go, go, go Go.