Neurodivergent Mates
“Neurodivergent Mates is a podcast delving into Neurodiversity and Mental Health, hosted by neurodivergent professional – Will, the ADHD and Dyslexic host. Will candidly shares his personal experiences, discussing topics like relationships, dating, addiction, trauma, sex, education, careers, parenting, the workplace, and more.”
Neurodivergent Mates
Becoming an AuDHD Marketing Expert - Kerry Milne
From global brands to grassroots startups, Kerry has carved out a dynamic career as a marketing strategist and founder of GAP., all while navigating life with late-diagnosed ADHD and Autism. In this episode, Kerry shares her journey of embracing neurodivergence, building a values-led business, and redefining success on her own terms.
Expect raw honesty, strategic gold, and plenty of laughs as we talk anxiety, unconventional pathways, and what it really takes to thrive as a neurodivergent entrepreneur in a high-performance world.
🎧 Listen to other episodes via Neurodivergent Mates → https://neurodiversityacademy.com/neu...
🎤 Podcast Questions:
Let’s start at the beginning – can you tell us about your career journey and how GAP. came to be?
What was it like receiving a late diagnosis of ADHD and ASD? How did that change how you saw your past experiences?
How has being neurodivergent shaped the way you approach strategy, creativity, and marketing?
You’ve worked with some major players like GE, Vodafone, and Plico — how did those environments support or challenge your neurodivergent brain?
You talk openly about anxiety and academic setbacks. How have those experiences influenced your leadership style?
What advice do you have for neurodivergent young people or aspiring entrepreneurs who feel like they don’t fit the traditional mould?
You call yourself a “growth junkie” — what does growth look like to you now, both personally and professionally?
Finally, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?
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You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates. All right, welcome. How is everyone today? Um welcome to another episode of neurodivergent mates. I'm your host, will wheeler, and today I'm joined with my special guest, carrie milne, to talk about becoming an audi hd marketing expert. Carrie, what's going on, my friend?
Speaker 2:hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm very excited no problem, sorry, did I see that you're a little bit nervous to meet me and stuff?
Speaker 2:I thought I saw on like your linkedin, you're like I'm a little bit nervous to meet you yeah, because I, I, um, I've done a few podcasts but um, none quite as kind of um serious, and um, well, I say serious in that you're really good at this and so yeah, I was like oh my god. But no, I think, probably less nervous, because at least if I go off on some tangent, you'll be like oh yeah, that's expected yeah, totally, totally, totally, don't be nervous or anything.
Speaker 1:Honestly, like, um, and I think, like like, for those of you who don't know, we actually sort of get on to the podcast 15 minutes before it actually starts. So it actually is a really good way to just speak to the people, calm their nerves, all of that. By the time we're ready to sort of get in.
Speaker 2:It's like we've been talking for like forever, type of thing if that makes sense, that's a good way to do it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally. But look what we'll do before we do get started. I'll just do a little bit of housekeeping all of that. So if this is your first time listening to us, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media pages. You can check us out on TikTok, facebook, instagram X, twitch, youtube and LinkedIn and please, wherever you check out any of your podcasts, please, on any platform, please subscribe, follow us, do whatever you need to do to help us with the algorithm to get us out there, and so forth. Now please check out the work we're doing with Neurodiversity Academy. You can check us out at neurodiversityacademycom. Got heaps of really cool stuff on there coming up. Got some really cool articles, some blogs that are coming out. Gee, what else we got. So many things I just keep losing track of, but there will be a lot more stuff coming out shortly, so please check out that stuff there. Now look tonight or today or whatever it's still sort of today in wherever you are over in WA, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Kerry, it is a little bit yeah, 4.30.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and for our American listeners, right, because we do have people from all over the world listening right. So you know, or even people from the UK, australia has like three time zones, just to get a little bit of an idea of how big Australia is. So it's still like four. And it was funny when I first reached out to Kerry, I said to her I said, look, look, do you want to do this a little bit later, because I know I'll only be 4 30 in the afternoon, correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's it. But uh, as we said, we're saying before um, this is a great time for me because I'm like having my second kind of energy burst, so yeah, totally, totally awesome, awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:But look, before we do move on, just a little bit of a warning. We like to do this and we may not have any, um, real hard-hitting stuff in the in the interview today, but better to um be prepared. So a little bit of a warning some uh discussions may be triggering. If you need help, please reach out to a loved one or call emergency services. We are not doctors. This is a space for sharing experiences and strategies. Now, for anyone who might be listening to us live at the moment, please feel free to shoot through any questions or even just interact with us as much as you'd like. Um, so just put it into the comments on whatever platform you're watching us on at the moment, and if it's a good question, uh, we'll put it up on the site. If it's a I know, a bit of a shit question, we'll probably not put it up, yeah, but um, we should be able to go with that there so questions only yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
Speaker 1:So, carrie, so you, you ready to rock and roll, my friend, let's do it. You're born ready, right? All right, okay, cool, let's start with the beginning. So can you tell us a bit sorry? Can you tell us about your career journey and how Gap came to be? So Gap is your business, am I correct?
Speaker 2:That's it. Yeah, so Gap is my business that I started about seven years ago. How that came to be is a very it was a total mistake. If I think back to school, I had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up because I just was so stressed about actually, you know, getting past the graduation of school. I think the most visual memory I have of what I wanted to be when I grew up was John Farnham's Backup Singer. I was 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had those moves, man.
Speaker 1:Like the Johnny.
Speaker 2:Farnham, yeah, but apart from that, I just knew that I wasn't very smart, or at least that's what I thought. So the only things that I ever really aspired to be were things that I had seen people in my life you know like teachers or you know pilots or whatever, and that, yeah, it was kind of no real drive to do anything in particular, although I knew that I needed to be successful.
Speaker 1:So what was school like for you?
Speaker 2:out of curiosity, Awful, it was a complete yeah. I have no nice memories of school because I knew from a very young age that I was, you know, I was dumb, I couldn't read properly, I couldn't remember things that we learnt in class. I was dumb, I couldn't. I couldn't read properly, I couldn't remember things that we learnt in class. I was extremely compliant and so I wasn't loud, so much as naughty, but I would participate in, you know, discussions and whatnot and be quite whatnot and be quite um. You know my, mine was the report card that said um, kerry is a fantastic um student to have in class, but she needs to try harder for tests and exams. Well, I was never going to be able to pass a test or an exam, um, but my undiagnosed adhd and autism and dyslexia was, you know, completely a mystery at that stage. And in the 80s and 90s girls didn't get ADHD. Really by didn't get it. I mean we didn't get, certainly didn't get.
Speaker 1:Like, identified as being that.
Speaker 2:No, identified as being that. No, um, I was. I think I got diagnosed as dyslexic in year nine, which over here is I would have been 13, um, and uh, the the kind of, yes, she's got severe dyslexia, um, which even that we didn't really know what it meant, um, but it was sort of you need to study harder, um, and so my mum would get you know, my mum would get the the report card that says Kerry just needs to apply herself more.
Speaker 2:And my poor mum said the exact same thing mum would be like well, you need to apply yourself more mom knew, because mom had got me a maths tutor, she'd got me an english tutor. She knew that on weekends I would study, I would do my assignments and all that sort of thing. Like I was such a good, good kid because I didn't want to let anybody down, um, the people pleaser, uh. But then when she'd get this report card, she's just like something's wrong and and to answer your question, the really long way around, that was just a massive driver of anxiety for me. I had severe anxiety from probably the age of nine or ten, um, and I just spent my entire time at school thinking why can't I be like everybody else? Why am I so?
Speaker 1:dumb, why can't I just get this? Why do I? You know, you know, I remember I used to like hit my head like why can't you get this? Because I don't know about you, but I would get like I would have to stay in at lunchtime and just sit there, looking at a piece of paper, thinking I have no idea what this means mine would start from the moment, or it start on a Sunday night.
Speaker 2:I would just get like all kinds of anxious um. And then every morning, from when we would leave home to the when mum would drop us at the bus stop, which was, like you know, eight minutes or something drive, I would just be crying every single morning. And I think I say to my mum frequently you poor thing, I knew that you had to then go and work, you know, and like you're dropping this kid off that's been crying, and she said, oh, it was heartbreaking. And she said but what was worse was when you thought that you were trying to hide. When you got a bit older, you thought that you were trying to hide the fact that you were crying because you didn't want to upset me, and I was like, oh, I remember that. So, yeah, I like school was hard. And then the fact that I think I was good at sport, though, which I've heard you talk about. How you know, sport was a thing for you and, thank goodness.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't. As I got older, I didn't have to worry about who was I going to eat my lunch with. Did I have to eat lunch in the toilets? Because I could go and find some like there would be something on at lunchtime that was sport related. And then I found myself coaching younger kids. So coaching younger kids in netball or basketball or volleyball, swimming, whatever it might be and I think that is where I started to enjoy school more, because there was something that was giving me a bit of Can I?
Speaker 1:A bit of drive and all of that. Can I just say that this is a big thing that I sort of picked up with sport when I was younger. Now, actually, I used to play volleyball not long ago. I just can't find a good volleyball place to play down here in Sydney, but that's a whole other story.
Speaker 1:But the thing that I found, especially with sport when I was like a teen, or you know, in primary school and a teenager, all of that was it was sort of weird because in school like like what I mean in school, like maths and English and subjects like that I was really struggling. I felt really, really dumb, all of those types of things. But then when I'd get on onto the sports field, I was unstoppable and I didn't feel dumb. Then, do you know what I mean? And in my head I would often think to myself I don't know. It was a weird feeling because I'm like, I don't feel dumb. I especially when I would be like scoring like heaps of points or hitting home runs or whatever that was, and like running rigs around other people. And it was a weird feeling because it's like you're made to feel dumb, but here it's like I'm not, it's like I'm the smart person. Yeah, well, you were 100% makes sense.
Speaker 2:And I think, um, you know, when you and I've chatted before, it's like, uh, I was, I became a coach of younger kids and then I was fairly good at sort of netball and volleyball and that meant that I went on to, you know, represent the state and, you know, on my weekend club I was a captain, and so there's these sort of leadership threads that were coming through that I'd never really realized until, uh, later in life. Um, and so when you say you felt like you were unbeatable or you felt like you were the smart one, you were because you were connecting dots, that the people that were sitting next to you in maths who were literally probably connecting dots, but you know, formulas and stuff or whatever english um, they couldn't do what you could do and yeah and that is because you know you would have had like that.
Speaker 2:Um, you know what sport were you playing? Oh, gee, uh afl I would play baseball you know yeah well, I I was.
Speaker 2:I'm not very tall, but I had this reputation, um, for being a very, very good defender, and I now know that that's because I could like micro body language. I could read when someone was about to like throw it in a particular, throw the netball in a particular way and I'd intercept it um, fascinating, like on reflection. But yeah, so, um, I ended up, uh, going through um getting the lowest score of anybody in my year in Western Australia to get into university.
Speaker 1:Um, how'd that make you feel uh, I just was relieved.
Speaker 2:Actually, I had nothing, nothing other than being relieved.
Speaker 1:Um well, that you got the lowest score that I got in, oh, that you got even with it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, okay, because I was going to get into university, oh yeah, because I got the lowest op you can get oh right, well, there you go I mean so like that was.
Speaker 1:And then the weirdest thing was I didn't tell anyone, but everyone knew. I was like how the hell does everyone know I've got the lowest score. You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:So that was a hard thing to take as well. That's tough, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have no idea. I don't know if certain people in the school let people know and then it's gotten out.
Speaker 2:I have no idea, but that knocked me for a long time.
Speaker 1:That's nasty, yeah, but you know what. You know what's funny? I actually found my certificate and it says OP25000000 for all of my like classes, all of that, and I think once, like the business takes off, and all of that, I'm going to get that framed and put on the wall.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? It's the best feeling.
Speaker 2:I came across mine last year, my high school reports, and there was this one teacher in particular that just had like, was not interested in me. I think in her mind I was a bad reflection of her. Um, like everybody else in, it was chemistry and physics as well. I think I don't even know how I got into the class, but um, she was. She would have my mum on the phone or down at the school, like once every couple of weeks, just saying Kerry needs to like, she needs to keep up, and mum would be, she's got a tutor. I know that she's doing the work and this teacher just had no interest, no empathy, no level of kind of you know. Is there a different way that we could, you know, do this?
Speaker 2:But that was the entire school system and I think to a degree probably is still you know yeah there's the box, and if you don't fit into it, neatly, we'll just shove you in there and you can figure it out while you're there.
Speaker 1:I think as well that, like from what I've picked up or what I picked up after school, that there was some good teachers where I went right, but the ones who I had problems with, they just didn't want to deal. You know, they just wanted to deal with the easy kids, right, I was more work for them, right.
Speaker 1:So, rather than you know it. So it was more work for them. So they're like oh, but this is a pain in the ass, you know, and that's what I noticed a lot of the time. But the teachers who took the extra time with me and helped me to grow and develop, it probably was easier for them in the long run because once they got me to a certain point, I was probably a really good student. Yeah, and that's what people don't realise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know I've got, obviously I've got um nephews and friends with um kids that are school age and whatnot and and there's a definite um sort of scale on, uh, a, the level of understanding that teachers have and, b, the level of understanding that schools have and therefore what their approach to you know, different kinds of learning and kids in their class. Yeah, there was none of that in my day but it was a very, very long time ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, when I think back, that's like 25, 26 years ago or so Let me just say it out loud yeah. Yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally, totally. For me, anyway, oh shit, okay, fair enough, but hey, let's move on. So some really awesome stuff there, but you know what was it like and we'll play better.
Speaker 1:Click onto the thing here so what was it like receiving a late diagnosis for adhd and asd? Um, how did that change? How you saw the part, your past experience? Now I know for myself. I was diagnosed with ADHD only gee, I think five years ago now. Or dyslexia was like the big thing back in, like when I was a kid but, yeah, had no idea until like five years ago. What was that like to you?
Speaker 2:um it was. Firstly, it was this massive um revelation and like someone had handed me the manual that I'd never been given for my life and I'd actually just been trying to use the manual that you know every neurotypical had been handed and I couldn't work out why it wasn't working because I was trying so damn hard all the time. Um, so, from that perspective, it was so um liberating in a way, because I was just like, oh my God, it's not me, I'm not dumb, I'm not hard work, you know, I'm not. All of the things insert kind of like naughty person, annoying person here. So I think I have. I'm only on year, I think this is the third year and I'm going to be 50 in a couple of months. I was 40.
Speaker 1:Oh, happy birthday. Oh yeah, Are you having a big party?
Speaker 2:I'm not having a big party, but I'm going to go.
Speaker 1:Come to Sydney.
Speaker 2:Run away from a big party.
Speaker 1:I'm going to Singapore, oh Singapore, big party. I'm going to Singapore, oh Singapore. Yeah, that'll be all right.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do the Grand Prix over there. Oh wow, that would be unreal.
Speaker 1:I would love to. It looks like it not, but it is pretty humid over there who do you? Go for in the F1?.
Speaker 2:I'm massive, massive Oscar and Lando.
Speaker 1:They're doing well, aren't they?
Speaker 2:You can't get past Max. He's just such a unique fella. I love it. And I find myself looking at these guys thinking, yep, you're definitely like. You know, you've got some neurodivergence in you for sure. Like just you know that whole like super, super hyper focus.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's if it's true or not, but like with lando norris, like yeah like I'm connected with his father on linkedin and his father is dyslexic wow yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if lando is, so that's you know, but I know from talking with his father.
Speaker 2:I know he's dyslexic and he's quite open with that, so there could be a possibility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I look at some of those guys because they're like oh, I wasn't a good student at school and I'm like oh yeah, interesting, so you went into race car driving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you weren't really hyper-focused on something that you were passionate about.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally, totally. Oh, that should be pretty awesome.
Speaker 2:The other thing that happened when I was diagnosed was I am quite ashamed, I think, to say that I really didn't have a level of awareness or understanding about ADHD before I was diagnosed. Only that I knew that it was a, you know, I knew that it was a challenging thing to have as kids and my cousins, my cousins' cousins, you know, but they were all boys that had it, and so it was just like naughty boys. I had no concept of things like rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, time, blindness. I never knew that was a thing. You know, all of these things like that drive a level of anxiety, like executive function, impulsivity. I just I had no concept of any of that.
Speaker 2:So when I started to learn about it, I just it was all of these oh my God moments, oh, is that right? And so there's a level of sadness, I think as well, like grief that came with the realisation that I had spent most of my life just trying to fit in and be compliant and successful and never really felt like myself, like never really knew who I was, because I always felt like I was trying to mark like you know, I'd marked someone as being a role model, who I needed to be like and it's like be like that person. And so, you know, enter the world of masking and mirroring, where we're really good at. You know, there's that meme that says, oh my god, I feel like I've known you forever.
Speaker 1:It's like, yes, that's because I'm completely mirroring and like masking and mirroring your personality do you know, what I sort of found like when I look back before I was diagnosed is that I would put myself in certain situations where it wasn't really good for me. So let's say, um, all my friends were going out to a nightclub or a pub or whatever like that. I'd get there and I'd be like, oh my god, like sensory overload, I need to start drinking just to try and calm down right. And then I'd be like blackout drunk, like you know, everywhere, um, and I used to think why do I get like this? No one else does you know. Now I look at it, I'm like, oh my god, I was using that as a coping mechanism to deal with that type of.
Speaker 1:But now if someone goes, hey Will, do you want to go into this noisy pub or what I'm like?
Speaker 2:take me the fuck away from there you know what I mean but like I think that's the liberating part, and um, I was having this actual exact conversation with somebody yesterday about someone said oh, um, are you like you would have taken drugs when you were, you know, in your 20s and 30s? And I was like, yeah, like everybody did and they're like well, hang on.
Speaker 1:Well, because I thought everyone did the same. Yeah, true.
Speaker 2:Well, but the point was I said, oh, but I have been drinking since I was a teenager, and exactly what you were saying was that I knew that if I was going to a place where there were going to be a load of people, the only way that I could a feel like I wanted to be there and b not get completely overwhelmed by all of the things um was to start drinking like two hours beforehand.
Speaker 1:so I was only right by the time you got in there and then you're like and it was almost like all right, this is going to help me to be able to interact with people and things like that. I'm not going to be able to do it otherwise exactly.
Speaker 2:And now if someone says, like you know, I talk about it online a lot, but it's the whole sort of yeah, come to a networking event with us. It's like absolutely not. I would rather stick a pin in my eye thank you. Because by the time I've walked in, I can hear the lights buzzing, I can smell the carpet that's just been cleaned, I can like hear 45 individual conversations. I can hear like someone rustling a plastic bag. That's like getting cups out of, like it's like no that's interesting.
Speaker 1:That is interesting because for me I love networking events, but I do like to have like not get wasted at a networking event because it's not really doesn't look really good, but having a few drinks just to calm the nerves a little bit, because and plus, I don't like going to a networking event if I don't know certain people there, because at least if I know certain people I can be like oh hey, there's carrie, hey, what's going on blah blah, hey, hey, what's going on? Hey, blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:Hey, hey, what's going on, hey, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:And then build off from there type of thing. Yeah, that's interesting from your perspective because you've got like different sensories.
Speaker 2:That are in there, yeah, and I can't concentrate. I actually really do love getting to know people and I love hearing people's story, but in that kind of environment I can't concentrate.
Speaker 1:I do know what you mean about hearing all the different conversations and it's like you have to go. What did you say, man? Right, you know what I mean, but yeah, no, that's interesting. That's interesting, hey, so out of curiosity. So hang on. What do we have? Okay, so, moving on from that one, how has being neurodivergent shaped the way you approach strategy, creativity and marketing?
Speaker 2:Well, I think if you'd have asked me this question without the neurodivergent piece a few years ago, like, why am I so good at it, I would purely have thought that it was because, um, I was so well I was, I'm always really well prepared, like, I will always do the research, I'll always, you know, look for the threads in their insight, I'll I'll go into the, the data, and so all of that is true. But the neurodivergent aspect of that is what makes me able to do that, which is, you know, pattern recognition, hyper focus, the idea that, like, I used to think that the word creativity meant like artistic, like drawing, but this concept that creativity is actually just about problem solving in a way that is different.
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Like it's a new way of solving the problem right, and the reason I can do that is because I have this amazing ability to see parts of a problem that are connected in some way that no one else would really make sense of, and from that it's definitely it gives me an edge because I can do it really quickly If someone comes to me and says oh, we've got, we need to send some emails, we're like low on leads.
Speaker 2:Try saying that fast Low on leads, Um, and I'd go. I'm okay, Cool, what? Um? Ask a few clarifying questions Like what do you, um, what are you saying in your sales and what have you got out in the market already? And what becomes very apparent is they don't need marketing or email to start with. They need to clarify what it is that they're like, what problem they're solving. So I think the neurodivergent aspects of what I do is just it allows me to remember what I've seen before and apply it to different businesses and different scenarios, and it also allows me to be super, super empathetic, which is what marketing needs to be right. You need to be thinking about solving a problem in the shoes of your audience, and so nothing says empathy like a neurodivergent empath.
Speaker 2:So we're very good at identifying exactly what is the insight here. And then how can you put that into some kind of strategy that says you Will are uniquely qualified or uniquely positioned to solve a problem for that client?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, awesome.
Speaker 2:The sales aspect. I think you know I nearly failed school, but then I realised I was really good at selling when I started to sell shoes and it's like how, how did I know how to do that? Because I was reading again. I was like reading people, listening to what they were saying. Oh, I really like chalk heels with a you know leather upper and a whatever, whatever for winter. And I realised that if I could give them three versions of something that met their criteria, they would feel so like. They just feel so validated and valued and often buy two pairs instead of one, and that was just the best thing ever.
Speaker 1:I think that's so interesting because, like you know, you and I think it's not my perception, but you often hear what people's perception of, say, an autistic person, um, is right, um, and putting them into a situation where they have to sell shoes, that can't be done, type of thing, um, and I just think it's so. Um, you couldn't. What's the word I'm looking for? You can't judge a book by its cover, type of thing. Uh, type, if I'm pretty sure that was what I'm looking for, because like everyone has their.
Speaker 1:Every neurodivergent person brings their own unique strengths and weaknesses, of course, but it's interesting how it all can flow into each other. Now the reason why I share that. I was speaking to a mother of a neurodivergent child, say, a few months ago now, and she's talking about how her son will never get a proper job, he'll never be out, all he'll ever do is just pack boxes in a warehouse. All of this and I'm thinking, geez man, this kid hasn't got it. You know, his mom's not really behind him, but then she's talking about how he's brilliant at what do you call it debating? Brilliant at debating, he's like head of the debating club and all of this. I'm like what? That is like an incredible skill to have negotiation.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally. That could make you millions of dollars and like this is the thing. I think like, yeah, why can't what? Why aren't people looking at, I think, what's happening? Especially if we're going back to school and thinking about stuff like that people looking at what we're getting on paper rather than looking at the life skills and going, damn man, you should actually look at this. Have you thought about maybe doing this, because this would flow in really well with your debating stuff for sure, and I think it's it is.
Speaker 2:I get really sort of um frustrated when I hear conversations like that and that they're still happening to that degree today, and I know that they are. But I think you, you know there's so many layers to that and you know, peel back the uh you what the parents want the child to be, sort of thing, and that's a whole level of thinking and expertise I don't have, albeit I've got lots of opinions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can I say on that right, it probably comes from the school itself because, know, when I was in school, right, um, my parents were told from the school will's never going to be able to do this, he's never going to be able to do that. Now, everything that I was told I'd never achieve, I'm probably achieving that plus more. Now. Do you know what mean?
Speaker 2:I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, mum says that in year 12 I got glandular fever and I was off school for 10 weeks or something. I was really sick and it was like the school were like, oh, this is maybe a good idea, a good opportunity to tell her mum that she needs to repeat. And mum said you know, I knew what your thoughts on that would be, as in my thoughts. And she said I just said to them oh, I'll mention it to Kerry and if she wants to do that, then I think she'll find a way to you know catch up. I think she'll find a way to you know catch up.
Speaker 2:But in a world where you know your parents really do rely on the school to be experts how can you, how can we expect you know, how can we expect parents to not believe what the school is saying?
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, you're dead right. You're dead right. I think that, like, um, that's what I've picked up, you know, from you know, seeing what my experience was like and then how I've turned out and everything, and it's sort of like and in a way, like that parent sharing that about, um, her son. You know she's not wrong, right, but like she sort of is. But like what I'm sort of getting at is that's what she's been told do you?
Speaker 1:know what I mean and I know with neurodiversity academy. This is why we're doing and I'm doing a bit of a plug here um our webinar events, all of that to try and help parents to go hey, this is what's happened to us. These are some other pathways you can take if you've got these issues happening and so forth there.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you did the plug because I was about to, because the very first, I think the very first kind of fangirl message I sent to you was I sent to you was yeah, was you know a message that had maybe Alex from the ADHD chatty?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the guy from the UK right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, guy from the uh, the uk, right, yes, yes, and he was talking about um. He was actually talking about, uh, how neurodivergent kids in schools is actually. It's actually just trauma building. That's. All that's happening is we're just building trauma for kids for all the reasons that you and I sit here today to say, oh, I was told I was dumb, I was never going to amount to anything, and you know, our parents did the best that they could by sort of helping us manoeuvre through that. But the very first thing that I said to you ever, I think, was I just wanted to say thank you for what you're working on, because you're changing the lives of kids who are going to find out that there there's an alternative being smart school smart is not what defines your future, and I well, you've got life smart and you got school smart.
Speaker 1:I'd prefer to be life smart, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:That's way more valuable for sure, and you know I I look at people that I went to school with and they didn't. I have not, absolutely, you know, no um negative thoughts towards them themselves, but I just look at you know you were, you were very much compared against the person that you sat next to right, and I've gone on to do incredible things, different things, a lot of it because I was trying to prove, you know, that I was smart and I could be successful. But I've worked all around the world. I've built businesses, I've built brands, I've been part of global teams. I've done so many amazing things. It doesn't sound like someone who was dumb in high school.
Speaker 1:And I think that might flow in well to the next question here. Actually, now you've worked with some major players, so GE, vodafone and. Pilco. How did those environments support or challenge your neurodivergent brain? So you've sort of shared a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yes, how was?
Speaker 1:that for you.
Speaker 2:I think probably, except for GE. Yeah, I mean maybe GE and Vodafone, but for a lot of that time I and I really was just masking, I was trying to continually be sure that I wasn't going to get found out. Don't let them find out that you're dumb but I was really good at what I did, right. So one of the reasons I was really good and this is probably more relevant to your previous question, but my brain works almost in components, and so what that means is that I can build frameworks and like systems, and that's how I can see the.
Speaker 2:The, the dots that have been connected before is because I it's the pattern aspect of it and so I became quite senior, quite young, because I was able to do things and learn things quickly, um, and then when I got into some of those big um businesses that you've got there, uh, the, the sort of what I was able to learn was unbelievable. It was on a global scale, but the I guess the trade-off from that was I was in offices. I was, I would be in early and leave late, because for the entire time that everybody else was in the office, I would get nothing done.
Speaker 1:I'd just be out of my body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and I think, um meetings, you know. I mean, I worked in banking for a really long time and never banking and insurance never have there been more meetings in one industry than in those industries, like you know. I'd go for weeks just having back to back-back-to-back-to-back meetings and then I'd be completely overwhelmed and stay up till you know 2 am or whatever to get the work done that I should have been getting done when I was sitting at my desk for an hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, crazy, crazy. You said you were overseas for a while.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, so I was in the UK and then in. I've worked all over. I worked in um Italy, in the UK and um I was in Melbourne for six years. So, um, yeah, I have done the uh escape from Perth and um back again. But yeah, I think what that allowed me to do though all of those things allowed me to do was what I do now, really, really well, because I can take the, the kind of principles that I learned around efficiency and productivity and marketing strategy and research and insights and that sort of thing, and apply them to either startup businesses or scaling businesses, but only in a way that translates for them, you know, only in a way that's necessary um for that particular phase of their business. So we're not putting in massive tech stacks or anything, but we might actually remove some waste by, you know, putting in a um, a better process for a um, an inquiry, new sales inquiry, for example yeah, no, cool.
Speaker 1:Sounds like you're um all over and definitely heaps of awesome skills that you would have been able to build to to be what you are now. But, like you were talking about before, you talk openly about anxiety and academic setbacks. How have those experienced your info? Sorry, how have those experiences influenced your leadership style? Because I can tell you for myself, I'm very empathetic towards a lot of people now because it's like man, I can see this person struggling. Why are they struggling? What can I do to help, rather than like, hey, pick your shit up, man, what the hell's going on, you know?
Speaker 2:um for sure, like I talk about anxiety and also sort of you know anything related to neurodivergence or anything that's you know what do they call it A comorbidity? So OCD or depression, whatever it might be and I talk about it because I can. Now I went for a very long time, um, where I didn't feel like I could talk about it, because that was just. That would be a kink in my armor right, that that whole narrative that I had about being dumb. Imagine then if I started to talk about the fact that I struggled with anxiety or you know anything else that you know. In my mind that would have been like, oh yeah, they'd be like I told you. So I knew there was something wrong with her.
Speaker 1:Um, so how long did it take you to, how long did it take you to be comfortable with being open, out of curiosity?
Speaker 2:I think I started talking about mental health when I left corporate, so that would be seven years ago um, and the ADHD aspect ADHD and autism probably took me a year. I didn't tell anybody for six months after I was diagnosed because I never expected I was going to get diagnosed. So I had like that kind of immediate shame and then the immediate like the grief for that poor kid that was crying every day. I had like that kind of immediate shame and then the immediate like the grief for that poor kid that was crying every day, you know, on the way to school, like that poor child that thought she was dumb and was worried about people not liking her and worried about letting her parents down and worried, worried, worried. And actually there was nothing wrong with her. She was different.
Speaker 2:There's a huge level of I think yeah, like a sort of grieving process that I went through, and then anger, you know, I think I always say I want all of my therapy money back. I want my divorce money back. I want my you know all of the I back. I want my divorce money back. I want my you know all of the I want my business relationships paid for yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, there was actually something here that no, no one suggested.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, so yeah but it's actually interesting because, like I think, some people approach it a lot differently to others. Like when I got diagnosed with my ADHD, I was already in the neurodiversity space doing what I'm doing, right. So it was sort of like, yeah, all right, cool. Another thing to tick off but I think that's what a lot of people don't realize is that you know, and I haven't met a a person who had been speaking to on social media for a while, and we met up for coffee the other day and she's like, oh, I'm this and that and um, you know, she just said she's not comfortable being open with it yet. And you know what that's. That's cool. You know, I think everyone approaches things in their own way and when they're comfortable, um, to want to share it, maybe they never want to share it. That's cool as well.
Speaker 2:I do feel like I have a responsibility to talk about it and I think that every time I do share something that's, you know, I don't know quite personal or whatever, or maybe even like just that little bit more taboo-ish than the usual not the usual, I'm not being dismissive, but you know, I think mental health, in terms of anxiety and depression, we're probably getting used to seeing a little bit of that now. But you know, when I um posted about um adhd paralysis last week, um, I just you know the whole concept that we want to do the task but we can't like we're literally paralyzed, um, and that gets we can think about it in here.
Speaker 1:We're like, yeah, man, it feels good.
Speaker 2:I really want to wash my hair. I know that I'll like it afterwards. I desperately want to wash it, can I know? But I had like four people message me after that saying I can't tell you how much it means to me that you, you know, you talk about the real stuff. It's not just the high level, it's like what this actually means and you and so every time I do that and I get that feedback it's probably, you know, like you, but on a lower degree, but it's like you know that you, you know you have to keep doing it, but you have to, I have to keep talking about it, because there are so many people that are quiet and can't talk about it, not comfortable don't know how, whatever, yeah the thing that I and I've shared this on the podcast before is that, especially when I felt like when I first was like going out there and promoting neurodiversity, all of that type of stuff neurodiversity was still only very, very like not spoken about, like tiktok wasn't big, all you didn't have like all of these like uh influences that we have now all
Speaker 1:of that type of stuff. So I'd be going in to um, uh, dni events and being going on this and that and the looks I'd get from people, it was like it was like crushing right and like I think the thing that really helped me was like okay well, I'm not actually doing this and this is what sort of drove me to continually do what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing it for the people I'm representing Absolutely. You know what I mean. So that's where I'm like I've got to be open about this and now I'm starting to see like it's honestly like the amount of change I've seen within this industry. I don't know if you call it an industry, but a community or whatever you want to call it right in industries, you can probably say it's skyrocketing compared to what
Speaker 2:it used to be which is good, and you know like people laugh at the whole concept of TikTok, but I can tell you that I was in therapy for 30 years easily 30 years. I have learned more about my. I did all of the therapies. I did the DBT, the CBT, the thing whatever. I did the schemers, I did them. I learned more about myself. I have learnt more about myself in two and a half years on TikTok than I did that entire time, because what I have come to understand is that I'm not weird. I am weird, but I'm weird like a billion other people.
Speaker 1:Weird in a good way.
Speaker 2:That validation is like I don't have to try and fit in anymore, like and and when, the whole thing around. Um, you know, I'd wear a white jumper or a new shirt, a new clean shirt or whatever, and I'd always spill my black coffee on it and I'd get completely mocked. You know, in one of my um old workplaces they'd be like, oh, how long before she spills her coffee and it's like ha-ha. And then, you know, you come across the TikTok video and it's like, yeah, we have spatial awareness issues. We can't, we don't actually realise how far or close things are. And just even and I haven't gone back and said, oh, by the way, that was my brain, but it's- like oh, by the way, that was my brain.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's pretty okay, well that's amazing that other people do that all the time, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it was actually interesting when I was growing up because, like my brother's, neurodivergent as well, but him and I were completely different, like I'm pretty sure he's like dyspraxic and like he'd be all over the place and all of this. I'd be like ah you idiot and you know. But like um, now I look at it, I'm like, ah, that's what that is, or you know what I mean? I can notice, because we're just completely different yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And even just like girls versus boys, you know the internalising that girls would do to. You know that was completely struggling, but you didn't want to say, hey, I'm struggling because you just had to be good, like, just do the thing, like just well, just it's actually interesting when I speak to a lot of my um, uh, female neurodivergent friends and um talk to.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting that neurodivergent people were very open about anything, like some of the conversations that um if I was to have with like at a normal workplace or something. I'd probably be ousted, you know stuff like that. But it's been interesting when speaking to especially females on certain topics as well and going oh, as a male, this is when some of them have been like oh yeah, like, this is how I feel and I'm like oh my God, I would never have picked, that you know.
Speaker 1:But yeah it is quite interesting, but I don't think of it as like weird. I think to myself, shit, I'm weird. But then I speak to these same people. I'm like, oh shit, we're just the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like like I'm just I'm having a phase of leaning into the whole weird thing.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I maybe I've picked up on other people talking about it's normal, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like you know, it's always been there, the. The classic for me in terms of what you were just talking about, um, is when people say oh my god, you're such like, you're such an extrovert, kerry. I would always get put into those when you do those tests in corporate leadership things and it would be like, oh, you're an extrovert and you're an extrovert. It's like I couldn't be more of an introvert, if you like. Honestly, if you paid me a million bucks, I couldn't be an extrovert.
Speaker 2:However, what I am brilliant at is pretending that I am and that's a coping mechanism. It's a like, it's a um mirroring mechanism, and it's the thing that makes you think that I'm an extrovert and that I really have got my shit together and I know what I'm talking about. And the the thing that I have that is not untrue is that I'm super direct, and that's the you were talking before about the sales and the autism thing.
Speaker 2:One of the reasons that people with autism do really really well in sales is because they can't fake it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So the people who they're dealing with are probably like, oh man, this person's pretty open yep, they can't lie, they can't like, they can't sell something that they don't believe in.
Speaker 1:Um so yeah, it's actually interesting. It's so interesting, but, um, look, we are getting close to the end, but I did want to go over this one here. What advice do you have for neurodivergent people or aspiring entrepreneurs who feel like they don't fit in the traditional mould? And that's pretty funny how we're just talking about that. It's flowing really well today, what's?
Speaker 2:going on. Oh, good, good, yeah, it always flows really well. What am I saying? I was about to say it's because it's you right, Like you make people very comfortable.
Speaker 1:Team effort.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, this is. You know, if I was going to go off on a tangent, this would definitely be one of them. The big piece of advice for young people is just realise that you don't have to be like somebody else, like if you are struggling, you're not broken. You don't have to be like somebody else, like if you are struggling, you're not broken. You don't have a glitch in the system. You don't have a bug in your kind of um, in your sort of dna um. But continue to be curious and just work out what it is that you love. Like I wouldn't have been able to tell you what I loved when I was 17, except for sport and probably drinking and dancing, right. But on reflection, what I probably realised that I loved was solving problems. I loved making things.
Speaker 2:I loved seeing someone's face when you give them a solution to a problem that they haven't been able to figure out themselves. So that's like don't try and fit into the system or the mould, because the mould is bullshit Sorry.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it's all right. Can I just say something on that? A big thing that I've found is definitely trying to find your. Is it your crowd? Is that like trying?
Speaker 2:to find your own Tribe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, tribe, tribe, tribe. Yeah, because, like, the biggest thing I've found was, for a very long time, you know, I used to wear suits, have a shaved head, clean shaven, all of that, and I was trying to be someone. I wasn't, so I was attracting the wrong audience and I was finding it really difficult to connect with these people, like, like you were saying before, like being extroverted and people probably thinking, oh, this guy's really extroverted here. I just couldn't do it right. And then, over the pandemic, I was like stuff, this, I'm gonna grow my hair out long because I like having longer hair. Um, I want, like you know, bit of a beard.
Speaker 1:I just want to dress casually so I feel comfortable you know all of that, and then that's when everything started to change, started to attract the right people and that's where, like especially Neurodiversity Academy really started to take off.
Speaker 2:And I think that that is like, that is a, that is the root core, that is the stem to happiness. Right, and by that I mean what you've just described, that revelation like realising that you're not attracting the right people. It's always something that you only realise afterwards, that you only realise afterwards, and so when I say the thing you know, like realise that you're not broken or that you don't have to try and be like somebody that's sitting next to you or that, like is seen to be like a super legend, I think that you don't realise that until later. Like you can't actually say, oh, that's what she meant, but the and the whole, just be yourself. It's the same thing. It's like what the fuck does that? I mean? What does that mean? Right, like what the hell does.
Speaker 2:Be yourself, I don't know who I am. Like. I'm trying to be like Johnny, because Johnny seems to be getting like all the promotions, but the sooner you can sort of go, okay. Well, I really like this. I really like the feeling of helping people, or I really like the feeling of building things, as opposed to trying to put like an actual title or a name on something. I think that that is the thing that helps you get closer to understanding yourself and therefore understanding the right people to be around and letting go of all the people pleasing bullshit and the fear of being a failure. That just just comes with having brains like we have totally, totally couldn't agree more, there couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:But um, look, we're pretty much at the end here. So, finally, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?
Speaker 2:Back yourself, back yourself. Like every single time I've thought oh, that almost seems like blah. Or I wonder if that's oh, no, no, it wouldn't be, because how would I know?
Speaker 2:Some other hero has come through and said oh, it's this, it's like I knew it was that so yeah, just back yourself and, like, once you've figured out a way to back yourself, find a voice that you're comfortable with. It doesn't have to be a shouty, you know, um, kind of a fake extrovert one like mine. Um, but borrow someone else's if you have to until you find your own. But back yourself because we have this amazing ability to read situations, read people, connect dots, and it is a wonderful, wonderful thing thing from a business perspective, but also from just knowing how you want to, you know, make your way through life, and it can be very, very powerful.
Speaker 1:You legend, Kerry. Thank you so much for coming on today. Did you enjoy yourself? I loved it.
Speaker 2:I'm like let's keep going. Pretty cool right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could go. We could go, but I don't know how our guests would probably might need to go now, because sometimes we have people listening from overseas who are on the train to work and stuff like that. So they could be at work by now. But, carrie, look, thank you so much for coming on. If people want to connect with you, where can they find you linkedin.
Speaker 2:I'm there, you. You can't miss me um the annoying couple of days. Yeah, um or uh. Yeah, gap um website, uh, website. Yeah, I'm around carrie mill um wherever wherever.
Speaker 1:Hang on. We've got someone, I think, has come through with a question. Before we leave, how does one find their identity so they can begin attracting the right people? I'd love to answer that, but we're actually a bit pushed for time. But, elizabeth, thank you so much for sharing that, but maybe kerry can go on and answer that afterwards type of thing.
Speaker 1:Carrie, thank you so much for being on today, it's been a pleasure, no problem, you're a rock star, right and for all of our listeners as well. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, like and follow to all of our social media platforms. My name's Will Wheeler. This is NeuroDivergent mates. Till next time.