Thinking Differently About Life, Creativity & Communication with Elisha Shapiro | Part 1

In Part 1 of this fascinating episode of the How to Talk to Humans podcast, communication expert Larry Wilson sits down with artist, performer, author, and professional contrarian Elisha Shapiro for a thought-provoking conversation about creativity, communication, and challenging conventional thinking. Through stories, humor, and unique life experiences, Elisha shares insights on individuality, self-expression, and the value of seeing the world from a different perspective. Larry and Elisha explore how curiosity, open-mindedness, and authentic communication can help us connect more effectively with others while encouraging personal growth and innovation. An entertaining and insightful discussion that will leave listeners thinking long after the episode ends.

Hosted by Larry Wilson
Produced by: Verbal Ninja Productions
Producer: R. Scott Edwards
Sponsored by: The Wilson Method

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Transcript

Larry Wilson 0:52

What I'm going to teach you is doing this for the podcast every week. Communicate toward things. Welcome to another episode of How to Talk to Humans. And today is a very, very challenging interview. And of course, the challenge will be to try not to laugh during the entire interview. Because my guest today is one of my oldest friends. I mean he's see it's already starting. I didn't mean to start. I can't help myself. We've known each other for so many decades. And uh when he saw that this podcast had just celebrated its 25,000th download, he was uh outraged when I reached out to him. He said, Oh, it took you long enough to get around to me. And I told him, I said, you know, I didn't realize there was a very obvious opportunity staring me in the face. And uh that's why it took me a while, because he's a man of many talents. He does many, many different things, not the least of which. Uh the only reason I tell you this is going to be challenging is because years ago, in the days before there were any podcasts at all, he had a public access television show. And he had me on as a guest one time. And I don't know if we even got through the whole interview. I just remember there were a couple of times we both started laughing so hard that we couldn't breathe and couldn't talk. So I'm hoping that we'll be uh more uh dignified and refined in this outing, but there's no reason to think. As I mentioned before, he's a man of many talents. He's an artist, he's an educator, he's a writer. Uh he's uh I don't know what you'd call that exactly. Well, I guess that's part of the art that he does, some of the stuff. And and we'll touch on some of that. But what I thought was most interesting is his journey as an autodidact writer, as a writer who taught himself to write, because I thought it was so instructive. And I hate to say it, but some of you may even find it inspiring. Um it's entirely possible that you'll hear this and say, wow, uh that sort of sounds like me, or that sounds like something I could do, which would of course be fantastic. Uh I've said all these things about him, but I I'll tell you more about him. Uh I said he was an artist. Um he created a long-running uh art uh piece called the Nihilist Olympics, where uh he stages these Olympics, I guess, every three years, and it's uh predicated on the idea of nihilism that nothing has any real meaning. And so the nihilist Olympics, uh now some people think of them as uh satirical, which I guess is perfectly acceptable for you to look at them that way. Um but I think the idea whether it was meant as a satirical commentary on the real Olympics or not, uh, his uh nihilist Olympics were very, very funny. So a lot of very funny stuff going on in there. And I mentioned he's an educator. I uh correct me if I have this wrong, but I think he uh was um teaching English at Santa Monica College for over 20 years, yes. Yeah, almost 40. So that would be over 20, wouldn't it? My God, how time flies. So please welcome my special guest today, Alicia Shapiro. Alicia, I'm so pleased to have you here. And I'm gonna try to play it straight as much as I can. I'm gonna try not for us to lose control and just become cackling hyenas here. But Alicia is also uh one of my greatest audiences. I can make certain jokes that maybe no one else would get it all. I know Alicia will get it. And I think that's why he had me as a guest on his uh public access channel to talk about comedy. But never mind all that. Um so we've clarified a couple things. You were teaching at Santa Monica College for almost 40 years. Yes. And uh I wasn't sure, I know there was a specialized field of English that you were teaching there. Maybe you can clarify some of that.

Elisha Shapiro 6:19

Yeah, yeah. I was um I was teaching reading skills and writing skills to uh college students who kind of tested low in those areas and needed a little extra help so that they can transfer to a four-year school and do okay there.

Larry Wilson 6:40

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. I knew a little bit of it, but I didn't realize how on point it was for this podcast, uh, How to Talk to Humans. Uh, I'll I'll fill in for uh listeners and viewers uh the tiniest bit of background that uh I've told you I've known Alicia for years and years and years, and I knew him way back when he was a terrible writer. And I don't say that to make fun of him or to insult him or not. He I knew he wanted to be a good writer, but for whatever reason he wasn't. And to show you how limited my perspective is on things, I just thought, well, you know, some people are good at this, some people are good at that. I thought, yeah, he'll never be a good writer. Now, this of course is way before I had learned much of what I've synthesized in the Wilson Method, but an extraordinary thing took place. I saw Elisha decide that he was going to learn to write better. He clearly wanted to be a better writer. And I'm gonna let him tell you more about how this process and this journey took place, but he clearly improved his writing skills, and I would guess just a little bit at a time, step by step, until he there was a point at which, after years of doing this, he got work on a newspaper. So obviously he his writing had uh improved to that degree, and then eventually became a teacher of English for people who have problems reading and writing. So uh enough of me, Alicia. Tell me about uh as much as you care to, or as much as you can, about that process.

Elisha Shapiro 8:49

Yeah, okay. Um, well, I remember uh when we were in high school together, and uh that that wasn't the first time we met. Um but I we were there was an English class, pardon me, and uh we were told to read a book and write an essay about what the theme of the book was, and I remember that was just about the time, I'm thinking in 1970-ish, um when the Beatles came out with an album called Let It Be. And the Rolling Stones came out with an album called Let It Bleed, and I was a big Rolling Stones fan, and I was listening to the two albums, and I was I realized the Rolling Stones are making fun of the Beatles of being stupid, and the Rolling Stones are smart. And I saw that in the lyrics. I mean, uh kind of it's somehow it's central in my life when I listen to what people say, and I can hear the even if they're kind of hinting at it in an ironic way or a backwards way, I'm still hearing the joke as what we were talking about before. And I said, this is good so great. I don't want to write an album, I don't want to write an essay about that book we just read. I want to write an essay about this these songs. So um I wrote an essay called Let It Be versus Let It Bleed. And I gave it to the teacher. And I don't remember, I think it was a male teacher. I can't remember who our English teacher was at the time.

Larry Wilson 10:49

Yes, I I think it was Mr. Bartin.

Elisha Shapiro 10:52

That sounds right. Anyway, so uh anyway, uh I didn't know what was gonna happen, but he uh he did give me back the paper and said he really liked it, and he gave me some suggestions that I use more lyrics to support my argument. So I had to kind of build, I had to kind of go back into the song and quote both songs so that um Mother Mary comes to you telling words of wisdom, let it be. So that's like stupid Beatle stuff. And then like then I'd quote like some like dark line from the Rolling Stones song just about how life is not fucking like that, and and um life is dark, and you've gotta struggle through it, and there's no Mother Mary is gonna come and save you. So I like so I sort of started quoting stuff, and I thought, and I'm not sure why that was speaking to me. I mean, I have my theory now as to what like drives artists to do what they do. Um, but it was like, okay, these people see the world the way I do, and those people don't see it. And somehow I want to be able to like be able to talk about that in a way that other people might be able to understand. So that was kind of like the first the first kind of encouragement I got for writing about art that somehow was important to me. Um I know like maybe the next semester or the next year, um I did write a play and put it on. And you may remember that.

Larry Wilson 12:42

The rantic epic.

Elisha Shapiro 12:45

Yes. Thank you. I was I was looking through my closet saying, Do I have a copy of that play somewhere here? And I found like several other things, but uh not not the rantic epic. Anyway, it was my idea of taking um, anyway, it was the satire also, but it was uh it was taking um uh Jesus' Last Supper and turn it into a Jewish Seder with a lot of like the mother people feeding him matzah and people complaining about shit. Anyway, so I just wanted to somehow satirize the Last Supper for Jesus by turning it into a really Jewy thing. Which is probably what it was. Anyway, so that was kind of my early recollections of like why the writing thing appealed to me and why I kind of wanted to be like the Rolling Stones and being able to make fun of stuff that seems kind of silly to me. I see. I don't know if that answers your question, but that is the first thing that came to mind.

Larry Wilson 13:59

Well, it starts to answer my question, it explains your interest in these things, but then I have a clear memory, and and of course, maybe it's false, maybe I made it up, but I have a clear memory of you uh uh setting on a very disciplined path to improve your writing. Now, now, you know, uh maybe I'm completely conflating this with other events. Maybe I've got this all wrong. I have a memory of you giving me something that you'd written to ask for my uh feedback on it. And I can't remember what it was. I can't remember. I I I feel like it was a short essay, like maybe a couple of pages of something. And goodness knows I I don't know what my brilliant uh feedback was, but I got the feeling that you were really had set out on a a journey of somehow uh teaching yourself to write better. Is that right?

Elisha Shapiro 15:19

That sounds like I would have d I would do that. I know. Um yeah, I mean I it just just writing, getting putting words on paper and getting these ideas out on paper. Um I did have a feeling uh wondering whether other people would understand what I was getting at. And um and I I guess that's why I I kind of tried to try to test audiences with you or asking, you know, what are you do you do you get it? Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Larry Wilson 16:01

Um so I did you well did you turn to some was there uh some guide or some mentor or some was there something that suggested to you because uh again I may be making this up, but my memory is when you started taking it seriously, that you were writing every day. Is that correct? I it could be. I don't remember that well. Well uh I mean that was my memory, is that you took it very seriously.

Elisha Shapiro 16:39

I think I think I also was enjoying it. Somehow that idea of getting ideas from my head out out of where other people might be able to br to perceive them. So I know I had ideas in my head, um and I wasn't sure, you know. I um I am uh, you know, I've I've been tested as an introvert. I'm not the kind of person who um, you know, can get into other people's heads immediately because I'm wearing my own head. Um so that experimentation I think might be part of that. Like, okay, I can I can connect with other people, it just takes a little extra work.

Larry Wilson 17:33

Interesting, interesting. And so uh these this is something I didn't know. Um but so does that mean that writing was a more effective way for you to connect with other people rather than talking?

Elisha Shapiro 17:54

Um yeah, I'm not sure effective is the word, a more pleasurable is the word for me.

Larry Wilson 18:00

I see. Okay. And we're assuming you meant pleasurable for you. Yes.

Elisha Shapiro 18:07

I just going up and talking to people is not as much fun for me as it is for you. I see, yes, yes. Um, but being able to connect with them without the the work of uh the talking face to face, um, seemed like, oh, I I can get the pleasure in that without having to put in the exp that difficult work for the introvert.

Larry Wilson 18:35

Well, this is uh uh great. I mean, this is fantastic stuff because of course it speaks directly to stuff in Wilson Method, but it speaks to some things I've never addressed in this training, which is uh I mean, I I I'm sure tangentially I have said, because I talk about speaking and writing, but I've never said, oh, you have to learn how to do this speaking stuff. I've taught techniques that people who have difficulty or do not find it pleasurable can use to become better at it. But I've never approached it from what you're saying right now, which I think is really interesting, the idea that even if you really don't like talking to people, you may still feel a need, a desire to connect with them. And so you've got to find some outlet, you've got to find some way to do this. Um I would like to think because I think so highly of myself, I would like to think that I could teach anyone to be able to do that. But of course, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are a lot of people who it's too difficult or too unpleasant or simply not pleasurable for them, uh speaking face to face. But if you're one of those people and you're watching this or listening to this, you might identify with what Alicia's saying here, which is still have a driving need to connect. And that writing, of course, is uh certainly a fantastic way to do it, obviously using different skills than speaking.

Elisha Shapiro 20:37

And you know, I I'm also talking as an artist, uh the weird artist that uh you mentioned me being. Um that's also part of being an artist is, and I think I don't know where I wrote this idea down, but you know being um you see the world differently than everybody else, and you want to be able to somehow create something that will let other people see the world the way you see that. So that's kind of when the Olympics, even though I and a lot of a lot of this dri my humorous art is driven by thinking other people are dumb. Um when the Olympics were announced that they were coming to LA in '84, or they were announced in 80, um, I was people were going crazy. And I was thinking, they're so being so dumb about these Olympics, let's do something to let them see that they shouldn't take it so seriously. And so me and my friends created these alternative Olympics that were funny, that were that were satire of the regular Olympics. And of course, the press went crazy. And wrote all about them. And I was able, I was feeling like, oh, maybe they some people will look at the my art uh in the newspaper and think, oh, maybe I shouldn't take these so seriously. So somehow I was able to communicate my other point of view through the art.

Larry Wilson 22:21

Very effectively. Very effectively.

Speaker 1 22:25

And that's pleasurable, even though I don't want to talk tell them when told every individual you're being stupid about the Olympics. But I do, I do want to create some fun thing that uh will let them see the world the way I do.

Larry Wilson 22:40

Have I ever mentioned one of the things I admire about you is how non-judgmental you are. Alicia Shapiro believes all these other people are dumb.

Speaker 1 22:56

But well, of course that's fun. That gives me something to laugh at in my life.

Larry Wilson 23:01

It there's no question about it, as long as you're having fun. As long as you're having fun. Now, um, so uh my memory of this is that you began this process of becoming a better writer by writing every day. And by I guess uh if I was an example of you were seeking feedback from people about your writing, were there books, were there authors that you studied, or anything specifically about I I think of E. B. White.

Speaker 1 23:40

Uh I'm trying to remember who who I was reading way back then.

Larry Wilson 23:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 23:48

I mean a long time ago. I don't know. There was was Fear and Loving in Las Vegas out in when we were in high school. I loved that book.

Larry Wilson 23:58

Yeah. I I don't think so. I don't think it it had come out yet. I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 24:07

But there are I mean there were a few books um but I'm having a hard time remembering what like my favorites were at that time out um but there were I mean I did find books and say, oh man, these guys are you know he's doing something that I want to do, you know. And um that's what I'm talking about. Right.

Larry Wilson 24:32

And well now, is this memory accurate that you were a big fan of Mark Twain?

Speaker 1 24:39

Yeah, and still am. Um and he was, you know, you could see Stephen uh I mean I don't know if people a hundred years ago saw the same ironic way he was making fun of people being assholed, um, that that we can see now. But um well they must have, right?

Larry Wilson 25:04

I guess I guess so. That that's got to be the secret to his success and longevity. I mean, it's got to be. Um but you must have seen something. I mean, Twain's writing is incredible. I mean, is incredible. Um I remember now see. Well, no one can prove whether I'm right or wrong, so I may as well act like I'm positive about all this. I remember there was a Twain essay that you really liked, that uh obviously was satire uh and brilliantly written in Twain style. I'm sure you anyone who's watching or listening can uh look this up. Uh it was about it it was about how uh there were always accidents with 11-year-old boys handling firearms that they would always wind up, you know, they would handle them improperly and it would go off and it would kill someone two miles away. And so Twain's uh idea was that they should form a militia made up entirely of 11-year-old boys who had no training with firearms because they would be the most deadly kind of uh army that you could assemble.

Speaker 1 26:33

Does that ring a bell? I have a hard time remembering that particular story.

Larry Wilson 26:39

Well it's my memory, my memory is that you thought this was hilarious. And and I think more importantly, you saw the genius of Twain being able to write that kind of satire to make a point. Um that's my that's my memory at least.

Speaker 1 27:02

Right. There was actual content in it, there was a point, and you you don't have to come out and say it.

unknown 27:08

Right.

Speaker 1 27:09

You can you can paint a picture that uh people can the the implied uh the inference, they can figure it out.

Larry Wilson 27:21

Right. Now, uh are there any other Twain uh pieces that come to mind, or am I putting you on the spot like this?

Speaker 1 27:31

Well, it's been a long time. I know. Uh uh I uh Hassan had a a black pal. Um and so yeah, he was dealing with slavery in an interesting way. Um but yeah, I know there were you're right. The the short stories and the short essays, I remember reading them and thinking they were brilliant.

Larry Wilson 28:04

You know, sometimes I get so involved that time just slips away. There's so much here I want to share with you, but I don't want to take up more of your life. So we're gonna continue the second part of this next week, and it only gets better. This has been Larry Wilson. I want to thank you for spending this time with me, and I hope you found this information useful. If you're looking for more, you can find it at thewilsmethods.com.com because I will be still being the end of the next August August 12th.