KindlED | The Prenda Podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments through microschooling. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED | The Prenda Podcast
Episode 84: The Power of On-Campus Microschools. A Conversation with Robby Meldau.
We trace a principal’s journey from Teach For America to a nine-year commitment leading a high-need neighborhood school, then dive into how a microschool inside the campus turned behavior crises into growth and engagement. The result: fewer labels, more joy, and a practical path other schools can follow.
• why labels from tests and adults damage motivation and identity
• how a 10-student microschool structure lowers behavior issues
• the surprising success of introverts in small, intentional groups
• keeping ties to homeroom, electives, lunch, and campus culture
• student voice and choice as drivers of academic acceleration
• leadership longevity, trust, and ground-up innovation
• advice for launching microschools within districts
• focusing accountability on kids and families, not systems
About our guest
Robby Meldau is in his 14th year as a public school educator and 9th year as principal at Eisenhower Center For Innovation (ECFI), a PreK-6 neighborhood elementary school in Mesa, Arizona. Prior to arriving at Eisenhower, Robby was a 5th grade math and science teacher at Reyes Maria Ruiz Leadership Academy in South Phoenix. He entered teaching as a 2011 Teach For America Phoenix Corps Member and later worked in teacher training and support roles with Teach For America’s summer institute and Phoenix regional team. Robby has also served as a member of the Teach for America Arizona Alumni Board and as the President elect of the Mesa Association of School Administrators.
Connect with Robby
Eisenhower Center for Innovation
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About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
Got a burning question?
We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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Why would it be possible that students that are this capable, families that are this supportive and passionate are like in a setup that is actively designed to just like not show any of what they're capable of doing and erect like these artificial barriers against them looking successful, looking effective? And it just, it's something that interests me and it just kind of motivated me. Like, why would things be this way?
SPEAKER_01:Hey, welcome to the Kindled Podcast. I'm Kelly Smith, your host for today. We're gonna be talking to Robbie Mildow. Robbie's the principal of the Eisenhower Center for Inf for Innovation. It's an elementary school in the Mesa Public School District here in Mesa, Arizona, where I live. Robbie has worked with Prenda on hosting the first micro school inside of a traditional school, and it's been a fascinating experience. I think you're gonna love Robbie. He started out as a good student, went into sociology, really interested in changing the world, almost became a lawyer, but thankfully with Teach for America and a job at a charter school in South Phoenix, he swung into education, he taught fifth grade math and science, and he's been the principal for nine years, so he's really committed to the school and done a lot of good work. He also likes running. He's a member of the National Guard, he's well read, he's interesting. I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. We're gonna talk not only about our experience starting a micro school and running it here, but just about what we're seeing in traditional education and opportunities to hold ourselves accountable to the needs of kids and their families. So enjoy the conversation with Robbie Meldow. All right, I'm really looking forward to this. Robbie Meldow, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Kelly. It's good to be here. Robbie, let's start with your story. I think in some ways it's gonna sound familiar to our listeners, uh a dedicated, passionate educator who's kind of worked his way through uh the system and you know, you've done some cool things. But how did you decide to do education and what did it look like for you that that those early days of getting into your career?
SPEAKER_02:So, yeah, I mean, there's some real whitebred, stereotypical elements to my story, but it's my story and I've loved the experience, so I'm happy to share it. Classic case of somebody that thought they were pre-law. I was a sociology major for my undergrad. And in that experience, I definitely got interested in education, society, advantage, disadvantage, privilege, those sorts of things. And that led me towards Teach for America. Worked for them a little bit, senior year of undergrad, and decided that I would teach for two years, you know, do my part, whatever that meant to me then, and then go on to life as a high-powered lawyer. Got placed at a small charter school in South Phoenix that was overwhelmingly, I think 99% Latino. And I got placed there to teach fifth grade. First year I taught all subjects, none of them well. I don't know if I can even say I taught all subjects, but I was assigned to teach all subjects. And then after that, departmentalized and was specifically given responsibility to teach math and science, got to be a coach for a couple sports, started a technology club, started student council, um, and and realized pretty quickly, even in that first year or two, that I really cared about education. You know, my educational experience had been positive. I grew up in South Carolina, and so even then, as a young kid, I remember like having some questions about why my school looked one way or why my experience in school was pretty different from you know other kids that didn't live that far from me. But as a teacher, I just really had this experience of seeing these amazing students, these amazing families, and seeing like kind of various levels, what be it state government or resources that just like weren't set up for them and were sometimes set up against them. And that made me feel like education was a place that I didn't want to just teach a little while. It's a place I wanted to stay. So after that, I went to get uh a master's degree in educational leadership through Columbia's Summer Principals Academy and then got the opportunity to shout out some principals, one of them being Mike Oliver, who was at Zaharis Elementary in Mesa at the time, got to meet Dr. Michael Cowan, who was superintendent of Mesa Public Schools, and through him was provided the opportunity to interview for and got the job of being the principal at Eisenhower Center for Innovation. That was nine years ago. When I came here, it was a school that had started a turnaround because of some really challenging things that were happening, but was kind of bottom of the basement district-wide in terms of like test force for what that's worth, but also in terms of things like parent and student satisfaction and like number of office referrals. And so I went from this experience of being a teacher and kind of this closed system that was pretty simple, pretty positive, a charter set up where there was a lot of understanding, there was a lot of like social capital things available to being a principal at a school that um there were some district-based resources available. There was just a lot of need, and there were um a lot of challenges, like a system, like the kids just weren't weren't happy and and things weren't going super well.
SPEAKER_01:Robbie, I just there's so much I want to pick apart about your story and your experience. One of those is what appears to be a very strong commitment to not just advancing yourself and your own needs and interests, but to really look out for others and specifically those that were not dealt as good a cards as you felt like you were dealt. Where did that come from? Do you have you done the analysis on this? Like, were you born that way that you just looked around and you saw sort of unfairness that was working for you as opposed to, I mean, everybody sees unfairness working against them, but you seem to have that unique attribute that cares about lifting up other people. I mean, is that something you were taught? Is that something you just had naturally? What's the story of that?
SPEAKER_02:So I think something that's unique to my story is the context in which I grew up. Um, as a member of a church that was not very mainstream growing up in the South, I grew up in South Carolina. There are these interesting, like overlapping advantages and inroads and then sort of disadvantages or exclusionary trends. And so I was in a place at seven years old where um, in the context of the classroom, I was really set up to be successful. I had parent support, it was a priority. I love school. School is a game that I cared about and I wanted to do well. Um, and I got a lot of positive reinforcement, had some great teachers through high school in South Carolina. Um, but also just kind of socially speaking, my experience with the South, which isn't necessarily everyone's experience, is like social hierarchies and kind of in-group and out-group are like abundantly apparent. And at certain times in certain ways, maybe middle school being the clearest one, feeling like not a part of that central group just like got very much hammered into me. Like if you don't live on the lake, if you're not invited to cotillion classes the first year, you kind of know where you land. And so if I look at my self-interest, I think maybe that's what activated things. But kind of that who is in the inner circle and who's not was something that was top of mind from an early age. And then as I was looking for people that I wanted to connect with, friends that I felt like I could have, I felt like I just saw individuals that brought a lot to the table, that were interesting, that were bright, that were capable. But that, like whatever system it was, whether it was like the social dance that we were going to go to or it was the structure of public school, really didn't have a way of registering the capacity or the worth or the interests of those people. And then certainly, Kelly, that drove like what I was interested in studying. I came into college as a classics major. I just wanted to see myself as a smart guy. I wanted to do Latin and Greek because I thought that was the pathway to look smart and be smart and be successful. And I couldn't stay away from sociology because those questions that kind of nagged at me as just like an annoying teen that wanted to talk about stuff were the questions that were being taken up in there. And then it was interesting to see the minute I got in a classroom, how those were the same questions that popped up for me. Like, why would it be possible that students that are this capable, families that are this supportive and passionate are like in a setup that is actively designed to just like not show any of what they're capable of doing and erect like these artificial barriers against them looking successful, looking effective. And it just, it's something that interests me and it just kind of motivated me. Like, why would things be this way? So early age kind of prodded me or poked me and then kind of guided what I felt interested in from that point forward.
SPEAKER_01:It's beautiful. I mean, and I will say for all the, you know, the fun that gets poked at, you know, public education, focusing on the wrong things, I think this piece of it, which really goes back to the very early, you know, the hearts of Thomas Jefferson and the and these very early founding fathers that cared about educating the populace, it was in part because they knew that economic growth and prosperity were going to depend on, you know, an educated populace. It was in part because they felt like democracy wouldn't survive if you didn't have an educated populace. Those are more like utilitarian, but there was also this sense of seeing the inherent human humanness in groups of people that before that time were not included in it and obviously didn't do it perfectly at that time. And it's taken the experiment hundreds of years and it's not done yet, right? As we've evolved. But I guess I just want to remind our listeners how beautiful that aspect of public education truly is. It's to say it's not just about what I can get for me and my kids. It's about like giving everyone an opportunity to, I mean, who knows, right? Like maybe there are geniuses all over the place. I personally believe that there are. And I want those geniuses seen, recognized, and then encouraged in their in their progression. And sometimes genius looks different. And that's maybe where sometimes I I have my beef. We'll get into micro schools in a minute. But I think the point of this is that genius exists, seminal human dignity. And and having worked closely with you, I it shows up in every decision you make and everything you do that you really are about helping everyone to get the education that they deserve. I think it's it's to be commended. If you're an educator listening to this and that's you as well, I want to commend every educator that puts lots of work into that cause, because I think it's it's a really good one.
SPEAKER_02:And Kelly, you and I have kids here at Eisenhower. Thank you. You you and I have met kids here at Eisenhower together who, if we just went by the book and how we looked at uh a kid's potential, you would never see anything. None of it would register. And I would say that you and I have been in a micro school, and we'll talk about how together here on this campus and seen kids that are brilliant, and and some of them were not only did that micro school setting really work for them and allow them to showcase their genius, but also just given a different experience or a nudge or just an approach that acknowledged that like one way wasn't the perfect way, and the uniform experience they had up to them wasn't the absolute capital T truth, really activated them not only there, but we've talked to these kids later on in life. And it feels like once somebody said, Hey, just because it didn't fit for you right away doesn't mean you were wrong. It's possible that the system was wrong or the setup was wrong. Like, I know this is everything about what Prenda does, but like that's so that's such a powerful message for a kid to hear that, like, hey, maybe this is arbitrary. Maybe you really are capable and it just didn't kind of shake out yet, but it's still there. And we've talked to those kids, and it's really fun to see that light coming on for them to recognize, hey, maybe it's not me. Maybe it just needs to be set up a little bit different. Just to go back to to my history a little bit to tie into that, one thing I thought about is, you know, I had a second grade teacher, very traditional, very capable. Looking back now, I think she said that she thought I had ADD. When I think about it as an educator, I remember being a student and finishing my work that she assigned, turning it in. I like to finish stuff fast, reading a book for a while because I love to read. And after reading a book for a while, being bored and starting to talk to peers and then getting in trouble. Um, and her frustration was to the extent that uh, you know, my mom took me out of traditional school for a year. She had me be homeschooled. Uh, that was a really interesting year. My first B that I got, and my first B for a while was in English from my mother in that grade because she didn't think I was working up to my potential. But you know, it's it's a simple version of that where just because the system can't see it or one person responsible for you can't see it, we don't want kids to walk away like believing the label. If there's one thing that scares me most about public education, is if there's a label arbitrarily affix because we don't do our job well enough, but it's a reality for kids, that's heartbreaking for me. So, and I think you and I are 100% on the same page there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Give me some examples of what those labels could be. Because I hear things like I'm not a math person, or I'm bad at English, or even notes like I'm a C student, you know, it all sort of seems to apply. Give me examples of some of your pet peeve labels that you hear.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think the most challenging labels, uh, well, there's a couple things. Standardized testing is hard. We definitely want to be accountable for the work that we do with kids, and we want parents and students to know where they're at. And for some kids and parents, standardized tests work okay. It's fine. It's not a big deal. We call it high stakes, but it's not necessarily high stakes for them. It just points out, you know, you could grow a little bit here, you did really well here. For other students, like that can really get internalized. And especially when their prior experience or their funds of knowledge at home really don't have a lot of connection with what's value or prioritized, it like really can make them feel like what they care about or what they're good at doesn't have value or meaning. And the reason that matters to me is the reality is like there are a lot of kids that have a lot of capacity, but maybe it doesn't show up right away. And then when they get to grade levels, I see as early as late elementary school or junior high. If the main message they hear from school is, hey, you're deficient, hey, you're not performing, hey, you're not capable, for them to have self-worth or self-esteem, it really feels like the choice is to turn school off. And that's a shame to me that they feel like they have to choose between self-respect and remaining bought in at school. So just that label of your performance level on a state assessment, I think is really significant. The other one isn't necessarily a label, but I think it's a little bit more immediate, which is when students' ability or their genius is in a form that's unfamiliar to the adult that's working with them or responsible for them, but that adult is perceived as like the gatekeeper or the final say on what is worthwhile or valuable and what's not. Kids pick up on that right away. And that can be their grade level teacher who they fall in love with and want to impress, but that can even be in a context like the band teacher. You know, you can believe that you hate making music. And I can tell you right now, I have some former students, I'm sad to say, that probably believe they're not musical, that hate making music. And that is 100% a result of a fine arts teacher that was not very capable as opposed to their actual latent capacity or the ability they would have had. So one of it is kind of this like far divorce remove, like the label that you get from a state test. And then the other piece is like the messages that you're receiving, the social reflection experience that you're having from proximate adults in your education set.
SPEAKER_01:Incredible. This is profound. And I hope people are taking good notes and paying attention. There's a lot that you've picked up and shared with us. Let's talk about you've been getting picked as a principal in the first place. I don't know if that was a usual pick or what your perception of that was. You mentioned a couple people that our listeners won't know well. Although if they listen to the podcast, Mike Oliver's been on. He's a principal here in Mesa, Arizona, and kind of known to be a visionary, a big picture thinker. Dr. Cowan was here before and is no longer with the district, but you know, I think definitely left left a mark. But can you talk about, I guess, a couple of things. Your choice, your selection as a principal at Eisenhower. And then you mentioned the other thing is you've been there nine years. I don't know if you have the data on this, but I think the turnovers faster than that for most principals. So I would love to know like if you are one of, you know, how many of the principals that were in at the time you started are still principals of the, you know, 80 or 90 elementary schools in Mace, Arizona. And then, you know, if not as you think about that, what are your reflections there? And and what are the like, why is it that way? Why are you not turning over the way? Maybe it's a little bit more normal, I believe. I'm guessing here I don't have the data, but maybe you do. So two questions, I guess, in one.
SPEAKER_02:So, first of all, just for context on Eisenhower Center for Innovation, we are a neighborhood school. We're not charter based on Arizona's enrollment laws. Anybody can attend here, but our data doesn't indicate that we have a particularly sizable percent of our students that make us like a school of choice. You know, there's not like a strand of certain types of students that opt into our school. We're broadly speaking, we're a neighborhood school. And we're a neighborhood school that by and large shows students that experience pretty significant economic disadvantage, kind of roll in, facing some challenges outside of the school context. And so my selection as a principal in Mesa et al was certainly non-traditional, but diving in more on me being the principal here certainly was atypical. Five years experience, depending where you are, is almost always on the low end for getting any sort of supervisory job, like an instructional coach, an assistant principal, maybe. So I think outside of the brain of Dr. Cowan, placing me as a school leader who was coming from outside of this big intricate district like Mesa, um, I don't know that that decision made sense to almost anyone else, other than some of the teachers and the families at Eisenhower where there was a good connection with right away. And um, you know, I'll be honest, during that first year I could see why, because the loaning curve was steep. Thankfully, I did get a high-performing mentor assigned to me, who was another principal in Mesa that gave me a lot of guidance and dragged me through my first year. But I think something about coming from outside the system and really feeling hired to work with the community itself as opposed to being a part of the district or the system as a whole was impactful and made a difference for like the trajectory of my career after that. In addition to that, I think something that's interesting is like I was brought on, I think, because I was young, I had a degree from a certain place, and this was a school that was called a Center for Innovation. I think the idea was that maybe I would take some big swings at some outside of the box programs or approaches, you know, bring in some systems designs that were really unique. Um, because that's a lot of times what young guys that look like me that have the education like me like to do, you know, kind of noodle or toy around with design approaches. And it's not what I did. At first, I thought about it or I tried to looked at being like a STEM-focused school, had some cool partnership with Apple early on. We used iPads one-to-one with kids. But just for me and kind of my truth and what I think actually matters in education, what I started to feel like is if I'm compromising student experience or student reality for the sake of trying to fit them into a box or fit them into a program, that just goes directly against what actually appealed to me about working in the education space. And so, you know, even sometimes my assistant soup would say to me, she'd probably say to me even now, like, you know, what is the capital I innovation at Eisenhower? And I could talk about like holistic support for students, what we do with teachers, but I don't know that I have like a really beautiful, like elevator pitch explanation of what it is. But because of that, because it's tried to be like very ground up, um, natural, authentic, I think it's impacted my teachers and how I'm able to attract and retain teachers, but it's certainly impacted where my career has gone. You alluded to in your question earlier, you know, like is it typical that someone would stay in a role like that for nine years? And it's definitely not. Generally speaking, elementary school principals aren't necessarily staying in the same place for nine years. If you go back a generation, you'd see elementary school principles kind of regardless of context. Well, at times that would stay, you know, wifers at least 20 years plus. Current crop that's kind of in my cohort, they tend to at least bounce around more than that if they persist. But then, especially specifically in a context like mine, what we see in high need contexts is unfortunately, like the research shows that um oftentimes a school like mine is used as a stepping stone for an instructional leader. And if you're a principal at a school like mine, you can get bounced because it's really hard and you're gonna go do something else and try something else because it's just overwhelming. Or if you do a really good job, a lot of times you get tapped and you get provided with a different and what sometimes people see as a more desirable opportunity. You know, like I've I've told this story before, but about three or four years into my experience here at Eisenhower, when things were were going well, there were some changes in the positive direction. I had a conversation at a Mesa principal's meeting leaving a restroom where a really smart, really talented principal talked to me and kind of said, Hey, you know, how long have you been at Eisenhower now? Oh, about four years. You know, you made some good things happen there. I think you're about to get like a real opportunity, like you'll get to do something really good. Kind of indicating like that. Hey, you put your time in, now's the chance to go go do it in a way that's gonna appeal to you. Um because of what you're passionate about, Kelly, what I'm passionate about, it's meant a lot to me to not be in and out with this community, but to show commitment. But also it's crazy rewarding, it's crazy fulfilling. Um, and and I love being here and I want to stay here.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've watched the halls of Eisenhower with you, and it shows up. I mean, it's palpable that that goes both directions, you know, as you've given a lot of yourself to this community. There's a trust and a comfort that people have with you. So it's a it's a wonderful thing. I wish everyone, everyone had a chance to have a principal like Robbie. But this isn't to just uh praise you. Let's let's get to the uh let's get to the next chapter of this because you're just saying like I didn't have top-down programs, which I love that you didn't because I I've seen the same thing. Like we're gonna do this amazing thing and it's gonna make headlines and and then it doesn't end up necessarily helping kids. But uh there was a big exception to that, something like seven years ago. I'm trying to think when we met, but I I kind of came back from 4.0 schools excited about this micro school concept, and I I just started talking to everyone I knew. And and we live in the same city, so people very quickly were like, you got to talk to Robbie Meldow at Eisenhower, uh, which we hadn't met. And I remember our very first conversation, maybe you'll remember it differently, but I just I found a person who immediately saw what I was trying to do, felt the heart of what I was trying why I was trying to do it. And more than that, like you connected a bunch of dots that there were, there was no way I could have connected them just around the needs of individuals in your school and what was going on. Can you kind of share just the beginnings of starting that that micro school at Eisenhower? Because I think that's something our listeners are going to be really curious about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So, Kelly, when I joined Mesa Public Schools, there's there's stuff I feel passionate about with education we've already talked about. Um, but I certainly have strong feelings about like discipline and how discipline works and how poorly it can go for certain kids and certain types of kids. Um, and one of the systems that existed when I joined um was a form of in-school suspension that took place at uh an alternative learning site. And so um the explanation was that like a consortium of schools pooled resources, and when a kid needed to go um serve an in-school suspension, uh they worked together to find like what that space could be. But what it looked like to me, and I get that there's ignorance there and there's a lack of experience and idealism, whatever, but what I saw was a a small group of kids that with some consistency were like arriving at my school and boarding a bus to a different place to kind of be shipped off to all day, maybe a couple days in a row, maybe a couple of times per semester, and then get get driven back at the end of the day. And it just felt like something I was so uncomfortable with, and yet at the same time, I was trying to figure out like what to do about behaviors and teachers feeling stressed. And at the same time, like I did one of you well, you said that word. I you know, all people I respect that participate in it, so I'm trying to not be overly judgmental. Yeah, that is what it felt like to me that it like it's hard to not see it and feel it that way, and so that was kind of something that got me looking, right? That got me looking and thinking. And then when I talk to you, I just started to think like maybe there's kids that like the school setup's not working for, and this micro school idea, like, what if this is something that worked? What if there's kids that just like having 29 other kids around them just really is worst case scenario? But maybe it's possible that what Kelly's describing to me, what he's building, I could make it so these kids could function, could have a better experience. And so that's what got me excited. And then as we talked about what it could be, I thought, you know, maybe it's not just those kids, but it could be good. And then thankfully we had some district leadership at the time that was super supportive and just said, hey, Kelly, Robbie, what does this look like? What do you need from us? Okay, we can make that look for you. And then I had a six-free teacher who I have to this day that's incredibly talented that could translate like our idea um into action that was gonna work really well. And then as we decided to try it out and do a micro school at a traditional elementary school site, things fell into place and we were able to do it right away. You had a print a guide um that also was um an aid on my campus that we were able to pay and and we set it up and we started to think about what students could participate. Now, what we found, Kelly, is like that was a small need um that we had identified, but the solution that we picked for it, like the thing that we decided to do with it, actually benefited other types of learners that we didn't anticipate it. And I think what surprised me, and I think you got surprised by this too, is it was there was this group of kids that nobody ever thinks about. From what you were saying earlier, you might have even been one of these types of learners where the the significant introverts that were on my campus that had a lot of innate capacity, there were some kids that were dying for a micro school type setting. And the minute a few of them got in there, we were like, oh my gosh, I never would have seen this. But this is the best possible type of learning experience for them to have at the school setting, and they just fell in love with it right away. And they were amazing classmates for those students who had behavioral challenges in the traditional school setting, but did really well with the reduced audience of being in the prend of micro.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. I mean, I think I was more surprised. Maybe this is just because I hadn't been living it, but the discipline side, I mean, I I I probably would have fallen victim to the same assumptions, right? Like these are for home reasons and trauma, that's not their fault. But for what for whatever reason, these are kids who can't do it or can't do school. And and I wouldn't have thought that you put them in a microschool and take off some of the restrictions and all of a sudden they they thrive. I mean, you and I both saw that happen. So that was my big surprise. I thought it was cool that we we saw the um, you know, the combination because I did intuitively understand the other kid, which came, you know, was like just waiting for something to happen. And when you're in a passive stance in education, there's kids that are gonna get very disengaged very fast. And I was one of those kids. Yeah, put that all together. I remember visiting that microschool and just being blown away. I mean, blown away. And you've correctly praised the the teacher next door. I don't know if she wants her name mentioned, but I she deserves a shout out if if we're allowed to to talk about her because she's been just a champion of this and very quickly saw um, you know, saw what's what's capable, what's possible here, and she's been there for these kids like through it all. I'm sure that didn't make her job any easier. Want to shout out Allison.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it came down to Mrs. Gulli. You know, I'm not a big John Hughes guy, but um, there's something about the with the Breakfast Club, the social dynamic that gets identified there that I think you would agree, Kelly, overlaps with what we saw. That I never would have guessed that the extreme introvert and um just the falstaffian like social butterfly that's constantly in trouble turns out they like can do extremely well with each other and actually benefit from what the other brings to the table. And you and I have seen that year after year that when there's 30 people, it can go really bad to have them in the classroom together. But when it is more like 10, there's this really amazing benefit in a micro school to have those two poles kind of pinging off of each other and working together.
SPEAKER_01:I wonder if we could just take a minute and just share some stories so listeners can get a feel for what this looks like. Because I it blew me away. I think it blew you away. I remember bringing in a superintendent who also was just visibly moved by what we were seeing. And it was just so different from what these kids had been experiencing in in a different structure. And really that the only change was the structure. I mean, I think Paula was amazing. You had incredible adults, but I think the the structure of their day was all of a sudden making new things possible. What what stands out to you in in terms of memories from from the experience over the years?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I mean, when we do prenda at Eisenhower, it's important also to point out that some of the traditional elements of the day remain. Like they still have a homeroom that they're assigned to, they walk in the door with them, they go to electives classes or specialists together. Them. They go to your traditional lunch and recess.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But whereas the other students on my campus are departmentalized, switching between classes, learning kind of your core content. We follow the apprentice model for these students. And they are in this micro school, this group of 10, where they set their intention for the day together, they set goals for the progress they're going to make. They work individually providing support for each other. There's times for collaboration, there's times to explore their passions, but it is deeply intentionally unstructured in comparison to what we think we need in any school, and maybe sometimes specifically and especially in schools with challenges, disadvantages, or needs like Eisenhower. And so the type of things we've seen are we've had kids that were on the cusp of having to leave Eisenhower to go to a higher need behavioral program that were able to finish their elementary school experience successfully. They became a predicid, they switched settings and the fighting, the misbehavior, the disrespect, the defiance. It wasn't perfect overnight, but it largely went away. And then we see students that were doing well, were being successful in the traditional setting that were working through more than one grade level of content, multiple grade levels of content. We even had one or two kids who fit both those descriptions. They were close to like getting kicked out for behavior, but they were really bright. And all of a sudden, not only were they able to make it through the day, but their academic progress was accelerated. They went from just getting kicked out when they had all this potential to heading into junior high, having been exposed to a lot of seventh and eighth grade math before they even got there. And I think more importantly, they were happy. They loved to talk about what they like doing at Eisenhower. They love to talk about specifically about what they like doing at Brenda. When you come through, when superintendent or other visitors come through, they want to be the ones describing the program. They want to talk about why it needs to continue to exist. They say that they love it. They say that they love, you know, the autonomy that they have, the choice that they have, that they can make it their own. And each year, I think a thing that I notice too, Kelly, and maybe you have thoughts about this, is the room looks really different each year. And I really feel like that space is a reflection of the kids that are in there. So what's decorating the walls, the way it's set up, whether they're lying on the ground or sitting at a desk or standing, walking around, looks pretty different year to year and based on the preferences of kids. And I think, you know, that's a point of pride for me that that's the case.
SPEAKER_01:It's a beautiful thing. Just to piggyback on this, you know, the story. And I remember one in particular that met both of your criteria here. Lots of behavior challenges before, got into the microschool and basically just discovered a gift for mathematics that, you know, I believe everyone can learn math, just to be clear. I don't, I'm a very growth mindset kind of person, but there are people who learn it faster than others and who get engaged. What stands out to me when I visit those kids, and now I've been able to see this for thousands of kids. So it's not a surprise, but it's it's still my favorite thing, is just to see fire in their eyes. Like this engagement, like I'm here on purpose. I know what I'm about, I know what I'm good at, not in a cocky way, but just in a like, it's an earned confidence that comes from setting goals and achieving goals and exceeding goals over a long period of time. And for them, those same kids then to transfer that into student government. I know some of these kids ran for student counsel and they've excelled in other aspects, extracurricular things, to see that, you know, it really starts with that. We call it the empowered learner look almost. You can just tell that they're they're changing their approach to all of this. And I remember the same kid, I I asked him a question about behavior. Like, are you, you know, how's it going with like getting in trouble? And he kind of smiled at me and he goes, They caught me chewing gum on the bus one time. Like that was his, that was the extent of his new behavior problems was like sneaking a piece of gum. I'm just like, that's night and day. I mean, you think about the change that is for him, for his family. And I'm just so thrilled to be part of that. None of this would have happened without, you know, you and your leadership because like what you just described, plugging this into the school and the resources and the the other things that exist there. It's it's a really beautiful partnership that I wish everybody would do it. I mean, I I think this is a model that could really serve lots and lots of people well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and um, you know, I you've complimented me a couple of times through the course of our conversation. I appreciate those compliments, but I haven't done anything that was that hard or that creative. And I think, like, I appreciate the compliments, but I think the flip side of that that you're saying politely is like, why aren't we seeing this more? And we should, you know, if public education were working perfectly, that would be great. I think public education has a lot of opponents, and I think some of them don't fight fair at all. But I do think that shouldn't stand in the way of us continuing to try things differently until we find more stuff that works. Because I think a theme of our conversation has been that we shouldn't allow kids to feel like they're the problem. Like it's the the journey shouldn't end with a child looking in the mirror. And it also shouldn't end with an educator at any level getting complacent. And that doesn't mean that an educator can or should try to be Superman. That doesn't mean that we are going to do something magical or save every child. But there certainly should be an obligation, expectation to identify like, man, year after year, this just isn't working either for all kids or for some kids. And what's something incremental that I can try uh to put in place differently to see if it sparks for kids? I don't think that's asking a lot. And I think also taking that approach is more rewarding and makes the work that we do more sustainable. I think one of the reasons we see burnout in a context like Eisenhower is if you just keep doing the same old thing and you keep getting the same old results, that's not just draining for the kids. It is challenging, it's draining for the kids, but it's tough for your self-confidence, your self-esteem, self-respect as an educator, and it's tough to stick around. And so being open to changing things up, to trying things differently, to accepting that first of all, the foundation is that kids are not the problem. There's something that will work for every kid. And then exploring around with that, I think leads to a lot more educator fulfillment than just saying stuck in our ways.
SPEAKER_01:I love it, Robbie. And I I hope that people listening, especially if they're educators inside of the public system, are at least like thinking along these lines. We get inbound, you know, a lot of requests from teachers all the time, right? And I think a lot of them have experienced what you're talking about, where they've been maybe they've tried something new, they've put a lot of their heart and mind into it, they've done it a slightly different way, and they not only feel like unsupported, but they feel punished, you know, by their peers or by the system. And so you get, it's natural, right, that you would get to a place where you feel a little burnt out. In the early days when those people would come to me, I would just say, Well, start a micro school. It's easy. You just here's what you do, and there are ways to fund this, you know, without requiring rich parents. So you can you can go have parents sign up for ESA and run a nice microschool. But actually, recently I've I've steered people to to the district, right? They'll say, What can I do? And I'll say, look, this is happening inside of school districts right now. Now by some national organizations, and there's some work out of Indiana or some microschools have come up through the school district. And in fact, we have George Philhauer as a guest on this podcast. So check out that episode. But the um, yeah, I think that's that idea. Now, I would love to say that every time they show up to their leadership and say, this is what I want to do, they've had the kind of support and experience that you and I were lucky enough to have. But I think it's gonna happen more and more. Would you have any advice as you just, you know, as you think about those people out there that are wanting to offer the the micro school type format, but inside of their maybe more traditional school, what what would you tell them? What advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, I um think that there are situations where it's not gonna be possible because of external constraints. There's school leaders or there's district leaders, and because of parameters that they put in place, it's not gonna happen. But I do think that almost anywhere you are, there's a solid chance that you can find a school leader, that you can find a district that is interested. And I think like the the paradigm the um the magnetic north to kind of kind of focus towards is getting a sense of when you're trying to find a school that you're thinking about or a district, just getting a sense of who they feel like they work for. Because the people that are gonna allow this to happen and that are gonna support in happening are gonna feel most beholden to kids and to their families. And that's gonna shine through. I don't think it's as simple as like asking that question in the interview, like, who do you work for? Um, because I think sometimes people know the right thing to say, or maybe it's not as straightforward. But I think keeping that in the back of your mind as you evaluate the evidence that's available about a leader you're considering working under or a district that you hope to go towards is like, do I feel like they feel they are most beholden to or that they work for kids and families? And that's the type of educators that that I want to work for. That's who I want to be involved with. Because even if we don't see things the same way right away, or even if there's some barriers, I'm confident that we're gonna get to a place where something like a micro school is gonna be easy to justify to them and there's gonna be an opportunity. But I also know a lot of principals. I've seen a lot of organizational structures in education where for whatever reason, who it feels like I they work for, there's things that get in the way of or obscure being accountable to parents and kids in a way that's like positive, right? Like sometimes there's scariness out there right now about parents' rights movement and feeling like it's a constant battlefield or conflict. But there's a really positive side where if you feel connected to and responsive to your parent and student community in a way where there's trust, I think it really gives you the motivation and like the rope, um, try to innovate in a way that's gonna be better for kids. So I think it's just that question in the back of your mind. Who do they feel like they work for? Who are they most accountable to? And do they have that authentic connection to that community? And if all that's there, I think it's gonna be possible to make stuff like this happen.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, educators, I hope you're listening. If if you're that person who thinks about kids and and their parents and really wanting to be accountable in that way and you want to innovate, reach out. I'm sure I'm gonna offer Robbie up, but I know I'm happy to help you. I would imagine Robbie would want to talk to you as well. We hope we hope that there's gonna be lots more of this kind of work happening in the future. With that, I think we're done. Robbie, this has been a fascinating conversation. I appreciate the work you're doing for kids at Eisenhower for the leadership that you are in in Mesa and in telling your story, hopefully helping lots, lots of other people just thinking differently about how microschools can fit into serving kids and families ultimately, which is what we're all about. So thank you so much for taking the time today.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Kelly. Thanks for your support and what we get to do here at Eisenhower.
SPEAKER_00:The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy to start and run an amazing microschool based on all the ideas we talk about here on the Kindled Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media at Prenda Learn. And if you'd like more information about starting a micro school, just go to Prenda.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep Kindling.
