Ever pondered the significance of breathing new life into old churches instead of starting from scratch? Pastor Jason Cook of Refuge Church certainly has. Harnessing his passion and experience, Jason takes us along for an enlightening discussion on church revitalization, helping us appreciate the importance of preserving the legacy of older churches while moving forward with vision and purpose.
We'll dissect the trials and victories of church revitalization, highlighting the need for unity across denominational lines and the adoption of a kingdom mindset. We'll also navigate the challenging terrain of maintaining a church's legacy without dampening its destiny. Pondering over when is the right time to transition can potentially save a church from stagnating and losing relevance.
Then, get ready as Pastor Jason unveils his inspiring journey to becoming a pastor, sparked by a calling to ministry while on a journey to Israel. He'll let us in on life as a pastor's kid, witnessing his father's unwavering commitment to the churches on his watch, and how it shaped his approach to ministry. The grand finale comes in the form of Jason's personal testimony of the divine blessings that rained down when he took a faith-filled leap and inaugurated the Hope Center. So, buckle up and prepare for an enriching discussion teeming with hope, courage, and faith.
Ever pondered the significance of breathing new life into old churches instead of starting from scratch? Pastor Jason Cook of Refuge Church certainly has. Harnessing his passion and experience, Jason takes us along for an enlightening discussion on church revitalization, helping us appreciate the importance of preserving the legacy of older churches while moving forward with vision and purpose.
We'll dissect the trials and victories of church revitalization, highlighting the need for unity across denominational lines and the adoption of a kingdom mindset. We'll also navigate the challenging terrain of maintaining a church's legacy without dampening its destiny. Pondering over when is the right time to transition can potentially save a church from stagnating and losing relevance.
Then, get ready as Pastor Jason unveils his inspiring journey to becoming a pastor, sparked by a calling to ministry while on a journey to Israel. He'll let us in on life as a pastor's kid, witnessing his father's unwavering commitment to the churches on his watch, and how it shaped his approach to ministry. The grand finale comes in the form of Jason's personal testimony of the divine blessings that rained down when he took a faith-filled leap and inaugurated the Hope Center. So, buckle up and prepare for an enriching discussion teeming with hope, courage, and faith.
We're back with pastor to pastor another episode. I'm pastor said I've got pastor Jason right here beside me and we're back. If you watched the previous or listened to the previous pastor to pastor podcast, we've got pastor Jason cook in here with us for the refuge church. We're so grateful he's here. He's down in Conway and God's doing some amazing things. If you have not checked that podcast out, go listen. You'll be encouraged and inspired and you'll see truly how, say, pastor Jason is man.
Speaker 3:You'll also be convicted about how you don't get up at 430 in the morning, you will question your salvation and we had a good time we had a great time.
Speaker 1:We got to know him, how God is using him and his team down in Conway. They've got over eight different campuses or churches that are operating out under the refuge church and today we're going to focus his podcast, pastor Jason, on revitalization. It's one of pastor Jason's specialties.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Passing. One of the first questions that I have for you really was what brought you to want to revitalize the church versus starting your own church.
Speaker 2:Man. First of all, it's good to be back. Thank you all for coming in for a second go round of this. The first one wasn't so bad, so you gave me a second one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you want to, can't fool you twice.
Speaker 2:No, but to God be the glory. We believe it or not, I don't see myself as a church planner like. I don't think I have the creativity like Pastor Seth or others that have done this. You know that have been able to plant, pull something from the ground up, but I was. I found myself watching and looking at our IPHC churches that have struggled and it breaks my heart to drive by a church that's maybe not even IPHC but it's closed and you know it's glory day was before and now, all of a sudden, that that's just gone and so these churches with two or three cars in them, four cars are not at all man, it just broke my heart.
Speaker 2:So my dad is a pastor and I was raised in small churches and he got into some bigger churches as he passed her a little longer. But I just saw the ebbs and flows of church coming up and I just decided that what one I wanted? I wanted to go be in the big church, that several thousand member church. I wanted to be the one that already had everything happening.
Speaker 2:My dad asked me a question one time. He said son, who's going to be the person that goes in there and fights for these churches that have the potential, and I just didn't see a whole point reinventing the wheel. Yeah, you've already got buildings, you've already got some people, you've already got assets as far as pews and sound systems, so I just didn't want to start all over from scratch. And so, going into this church, I just made the mistake of falling in love with some old folk and had a 90 some year old member. I had 80 year old members and if something about people having blue hair, they just did something to me man so revitalization makes my heart pump.
Speaker 2:Peanut butter. We can't. I believe in planting and I believe in planting is essential to the growth of the body of Christ long term. But I also believe why reinvent the wheel? And I think in some cases you see these churches that need to close and their stuff should be given to a planter. So then the body of Christ thrives and it becomes a kingdom thing rather than my four and no more. And if I can't have my way, I'm just going to close the doors. So you see some maturity what's happening now in our town, and then I'll hush.
Speaker 2:Our town has a church that the pastor was aging. He was in his 70s, 80s and he gave his building $200,000 in cash and all of the buildings and everything it was in it and handed it to a church plant that had been looking for a building for years, handed on the keys, and to me that's the way the kingdom should work. When I die, I can't take nothing with me. I've never seen a U-Haul with a hearse behind a U-Haul behind a hearse. I can't take it with me, and same thing with the church man. We got to revitalize and reignite and sometimes all folk needs just a spark of hope.
Speaker 1:All takes.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful. But you use one big word there that a lot of people say they are, until it comes time to put up a shut up, and that's the word kingdom. I mean when we care about our brothers and sisters and we care about the kingdom of God and we're willing to get rid of $200,000 in a building to see somebody else flourish. That's when you know your kingdom.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, that church is rocking now, that church has done great things. And the kicker is, the kingdom crosses the nominational lines and crosses it and we, as humans, have put these barriers up.
Speaker 2:But Paul said there's one people when there's no Jew, no Greek, no male. No, there's just one people, one body of Christ and man. If we'd ever get that through our thick skulls, so to speak, how much more could we do? I've linked arms with the church of God across the street from me, with the missionary Baptist church down there. We have just locked arms and man, god's done some cool stuff through all of this stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, we are. We just turned a one year old. Our church plant and one of the things early on is something that you just said we've actually pursued this to find an older church because I'm with, I believe in church planning. You said this last episode where you said that there should be a healthy balance between church planting and revitalization, that you're hitting both streams and I think it's needed in the church. But I also, I think that there is, as far as my heart and my wife's heart is, that we could. Why go spend money in building a new building or buying new land when you have places that are almost dying and need somebody to come in with new vision? And this is where we're at also as church planters, where, okay, we need, we need building, we need space. Why spend tons of money where the market is?
Speaker 1:you know the way it is now sure and we could come in, and you know, when you talk about kingdom, that's one of the hardest things I find in churches today is that they would rather die than give keys to something to see it live.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you my dad pastor to church one time that chose. They didn't want to revitalize, they didn't want to do anything new. And the Lord said my vision said that they would stand in the ashes and shout. We held on there. What a horrible legacy.
Speaker 2:Bishop Ron carpenter senior once said that no young church should forfeit its destiny. So an older church can maintain its legacy. At the end of the day, we've got to be a people that are kingdom minded, from the cradle to the grave. Sometimes when you know, let's just face it. The church you're planting today, the church I'm leading and the church Pastor Jason is leading, one day these churches probably won't be here. They'll have their life cycle and lifespan. Dude, the oldest churches in the world are probably over in Europe and they're 300, 400 years old, even 500 from Martin Luther's church in Wittenberg. But one day those churches are not established congregations now, they are just monuments.
Speaker 2:And if we're not careful, the life cycle of a church is not a bad thing. Once it reaches a point it's like everything else unless you catch it at the right moment, its digression is unsanitable. The key is to recognize. When I die, I'm not going to hold my daughter's blessings. I'm going to make sure she has them, because my goal is to keep the legacy of my family going. Same is true with church. If I can keep the legacy of the body of Christ going, that's what I should do.
Speaker 1:That's right, absolutely. I had someone tell me this. I have thoughts on it. Okay, this is my little TED talk here on the podcast. I really want to get some wisdom on how I want to make sure my thoughts are pure, as well as a church planner, because I think it's much easier to plant than it is to revitalize. But there was a pastor I was talking to about a church that needed revitalization and how we would love to come in and partner with this church, win the community. They need people, we need space. They've got space, we've got people. It's us coming together and this is what he said. He said well, if you don't get it now, you'll get it when it dies. What's your thought on that mentality in the kingdom today?
Speaker 2:It's selfish and that's just putting it lightly, Because at what point would you not bring the kingdom, assets and resources the Lord has given you together? I think church planning is easier in the sense that you don't have to outrun a reputation that a church has gotten. You don't have to outrun like a negative connotation, racism, whatever. You don't have to outrun. This is my pew. You don't have to outrun. This is how we've always done it.
Speaker 2:But the flip side of that is you financially for your agenda and things you've gotten acquired to be able to do ministry, you're acquiring that stuff fresh out of the ground. It's just so expensive. It's like anything starting up, it's ridiculous. So to me, revitalization is just as easy. But when folk try to hold on to their legacy, look what good is it doing? You dead. If you are dead as a church or dead as a person, dead as a movement, it's maturity to recognize it. Look, my days are numbered and the Lord is probably done with the season of our church. Let's sow it into dude. There's a harvest on that seed. We don't. God is not mocked, Whatever the man sows, that shall he also reap?
Speaker 2:So if he's going to reap a harvest on his seed planted in somebody, that's a player that's doing something. The mark of life is not in a seed, is not that it looks good in the ground. The mark of seed is it bears fruit. And so if your ministry is bearing fruit and the other ministry is on its way out, dude, at the end of the day, we got to sow into what's bearing fruit. That's where the heartbeat of the kingdom of God has got to focus.
Speaker 1:It's easier to restore than it is to resurrect.
Speaker 2:That's very true, and it's easier to repair, restore, repair all of it, revive every bit of it, but the kicker is what's the heart of the person doing it? That's really what are we trying to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it. So you really kind of touched on a few things right there. I already kind of know the answer to some of this, but tell me what have been, what has been some of your struggles when it comes to revitalizing a church dude. For those, you know, purely for those who, yeah, who want to revitalize.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me be fair it. I've had a pastor look at me today and he said there's Nothing works out for everybody else like it does for you. And I sat there and I said, hmm, that's either an incredible testimony or just loaded with fallacy, because the reality is the struggles we fought.
Speaker 2:I Didn't fight the typical church battles because I went into a very traditional, very Suit and tie, very formal church. The first Sunday we were there, a brother was teaching Sunday school, harping on Women that wore pants, harping on earrings and makeup. And my wife had make-up on. She was trying to get it off her face, oh, taking her earrings out and pulling her pants to where it looked like she had a dress. I mean like just very, very, very, very difficult.
Speaker 2:Well, but when the church started growing and it grew fast, like one week was 10 more, next week seven more, next week five, I mean just week after week we were growing. So the people it gave me change in my pocket for Nijia Maxx will to make leadership changes. So first big thing I did I took, I installed projectors, I Secured outside funding to do it, put those in and that battle. You know we're swinging off the wall. Oh, my god, I didn't have to fight that fight. It seems creepy creepy now, but we're in the Bible Belt and the buckle of the Bible Belt, so we deal with this stuff. Yeah, I rolled the organ out of the church.
Speaker 3:Oh Goodness.
Speaker 2:I didn't ask. I was 29. I blamed it on my youthful ignorance.
Speaker 2:We loaded it up and it was gone on a truck that following Saturday I gave it to a funeral home or an African-American church. It wasn't a ham and or we kept it, but we gave it away and sent that thing down the road. That was a big whammy but the stage was too cramped. I mean our stage was filling up with people in band. So some things, the growth, bought me the change To build. But if you go in just say we're gonna revitalize for a sake of revitalizing, that doesn't work. But when you have a vision for it and the Lord said this is how you know, this is the way, walk in it. It's a little more simple that way.
Speaker 1:You can't argue when you produce fruit man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've heard. I've heard another pastor say that fruit is the currency of change and that is very wise and as long as you have your producing fruit is hard for people, you can argue, but it's hard for you to argue when you're bearing fruit, and true kingdom fruit, and that's right, and when you saw these seven, I had one guy he was 87 when I went and he would get so happy when I would preach.
Speaker 2:He had this big Bible. It was like this big and he would shake it at me. He was just so happy. Oh wow, but when I saw him and a teenager, praying in the Holy Ghost and when I saw kids just rejoicing around the altar and when the people of the older folk Hurt my. My older folk are the ones I owe all the credit to other than the Lord because they got on board but they started seeing their grandchildren come to church and they started seeing their grandchildren get see from set, from drugs, and then they saw the herd, the stamper of little feet again, and it just those older folks have a.
Speaker 2:They said pastor, we trust you, let's go, yeah and now to this day, I've maintained all of those folks that this 13 years, the ones I haven't buried are still there, my oldest members like 91 and that is amazing, still there, man that's good yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:That is amazing, though I love to hear that.
Speaker 2:What it was challenge during Old folk don't gossip much on social media, so you don't fight that. You might fight the battle on the telephone, but you don't fight it. Yeah, social media talking right now You're right, yeah, yeah, yeah, we still need some holiness and sanctification on social media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. What do?
Speaker 3:you think is the biggest resource outside of God that has helped you.
Speaker 2:I Really think a love for people. That sounds so cheesy and so generic but at the end of the day, if you're doing ministry without the sole purpose of trying to help people, that is your quote-unquote guiding light.
Speaker 2:You are trying to please God and help people. The thing that has kept me going has really just been the look of folk when their lives are impacted by the gospel a free meal or Ministry that our church provides, or seeing a mama walk away with diapers, or just we have a special needs child who's in a wheelchair. The first year we're there do a back to school bash, and we do a back to school bash every year, since All the other kids got their their you know, pencils and papers and calculators, stuff, but this one little boy my wife took the time to go by him. I said a Lego blocks, so something he could actually do, and seeing the look on those parents faces yeah, dude, that's what's kept me going, because if it's about people, that's all Jesus cared about.
Speaker 2:That's it could have been the religious, he said. Y'all going down the road he cared about him. But he said I was sent to seeking to save that which is lost not that which is found religious and stuck up and whatever else you Want to say. That's right, absolutely, man.
Speaker 3:Is there. So tell me this how did you know when you were caught in the ministry?
Speaker 2:I found out. Um, I have a picture on my phone when I was five years old, preaching behind Eminem fundraising boxes. I had my dad's Bible opened, I had my sunglasses there and I had my little sister and the dog, um, sitting there to get saved. And, um, I'm pretty sure that the dog took the walk, but my sister didn't. But you know, we had a. Uh, the struggle is real, but we had there.
Speaker 2:In that moment I was a little boy. I didn't know what was going on. I had people all my life. You're called man, do you know? You're called? You're in a con. I always shake my head yeah, yeah, I guess so, yeah, yeah. But honestly, I thought I was going into music.
Speaker 2:I was a worship leader for a long time and I thought that was me, thought I was going to do worship all day long. Um, but then, at about 17, my parents, um, the church had gone through a vicious split that we were serving in and, uh, I was at the door of giving up on faith. I became a different human being and I started dressing in like gothic clothes, blacks, you know just anything I could do to get attention. And what it was was. I was screaming because my heart was empty. I didn't, I just was so disillusioned with church because when you're a pastor's kid, you see everything from the front row, not the back row, yeah. And when you see everything from the front row, you're you get to peek behind the curtain at how the big ship turns, and it's a mess sometimes. And so my parents saw they were losing me.
Speaker 2:I went to Israel, uh, with my dad, and on the last day I was sitting, um, I was sitting in Calvary, literally in front of Golgotha, looking at the empty tomb and, uh, carrying all this weight, feeling like all this is my fault, everything you know. This has happened in the church, I internalized it. And an old man walks by me, puts his hand on my chest or on my shoulder. He said, son, you need to know this is not your fault. And he walked away and in that moment, all that trash and all that garbage and all that anger and that bitterness and rage.
Speaker 2:I left it right there. I am sobbing as a 17 year old and the Lord healed my heart. Well, I come home and I'm sitting on the back row of the church you know, right there in Myrtle Beach and I'm bebopping and the Lord said you're going to go to Emmanuel College and you're going to be a youth pastor. What? And I said, okay, all right, went to Emmanuel that fall and there was this song playing called Agnus Day. Um, and then Jesus, there was doing a skit or something and Jesus was up on a cross and he looked right at me and it was if I heard the words, will you go for me? And, uh, I said yes, and that was.
Speaker 2:That was the moment I didn't see myself as a revitalizer. But my daddy coming up Um, I didn't expect to be called to this ministry. He always took very particular care of whatever building he was entrusted with. Yards were always going to be tip top, the sign was always going to be clean and pressure wash. The building was not going to have anything out of order. Everything was going to be neat and decent, in order and somehow, some way, that got in my blood. So now, when I walk in chaos, I immediately say, all right, we need to do this.
Speaker 2:That's how my mind works. Yeah, but I know it's a refuge when I walk on campus and I hear the Lord whisper those same words uh, dead things can live. That's that's been the mark of every single revitalization.
Speaker 3:I love it. Yeah, man, absolutely. Ooh, what a story. Let me ask you this and you've got two pastors across from you who are, who are pastoring, and my father wasn't a pastor, so I'm not a PK, I wasn't raised a PK, and I don't know how to, how to, how to sympathize with PKs right, because I'm not that now I can tell you what my kids have been through, and let me ask you this and how did? Was your dad like um, or your parents like did they? Did they explain everything to you that was going on or did they just kind of not address it? Because I can tell you what I tried, what I've tried to do, what I've thought has been wise. Um has been they see things and I don't avoid it, I address it with them and I let them know hey, this is people, this isn't God, and you can never turn, you can never be upset with God over how people act, and so I'm curious as to how your father, um, kind of helped you with that Shoo.
Speaker 2:My mom and dad. I gotta give him credit, I have amazing parents still to this day. My mom and I my dad and I were all very tight. My parents are actually divorced because of church. Wow, the split ended up um happening.
Speaker 2:After all of this, a little later on, I was in my early twenties. I was at a manual. I was a sophomore. My parents actually ended up splitting up over this thing, uh, cause it blew up so bad at our church, and my mom just came to the point where she said I just cannot be in ministry considering what I've walked through. Wow, my parents, what got me to that point of feeling like I was responsible and feeling like I was guilty was I was allowed to sit in.
Speaker 2:I snuck in on a, a church business meeting where they were letting accusations fly on my dad. This one gentleman in particular sent letters every day anonymously and it was just crucifying my dad and my family. To keep the pressure off of him, I would stop by the school, the mailbox, on the way home from school and I would get those letters and I'd read them and then throw them away. So my daddy didn't get them. Wow, my parents didn't know that until later on. But I was doing my part to try to shield them. So my parents did all they could to shield us from it. But because of the nature of how some of this stuff surrounded me, like it was an accusation, I was driving the church fan down the road. I'm 15, 14. What am I doing? A church fan? I mean, you know, bumping in a church fan.
Speaker 2:The pastor is using a cell phone that the church pays for. I mean, that's just kind of a common courtesy when you're on the phone all the time for the church, but that was a problem and so all of this. My parents couldn't really shield me from it as much as they wanted to it was still in my face with my little girl.
Speaker 2:We try to explain the same. You know, this is not God, this is people and this is just sometimes just straight up foolishness and I think if they could have done anything any different, I don't know that they could have and, honestly, I don't know that I would be so sympathetic towards PKs. I try to shield my little girl from everything I can. As a matter of fact, I figured out when she wants to go on her first date. I'm just going to shoot the first one I want to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it won't matter.
Speaker 2:Won't matter anymore. I want to shield and protect her because I never want her to see church people as the same, as equivalent with God.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think I ran that risk as a young boy because that was my understanding of God.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So dangerous place to be.
Speaker 3:Interesting and thank you for sharing your heart on that, because that's something I've wondered. I'm like man, am I? Am I doing the right thing? Because you know, as a PK, when dads at church or moms at church, you're at church and you get drug to drug disease, whether you want to be there or not, you're going to be there.
Speaker 2:Drug disease, drug to revival, drug to church. Man, I slept under the pews coming up in revival meetings. You went Sunday morning, sunday school, sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night, revival, whatever it was, you went every day.
Speaker 2:But, man, I would you know, to this day I wouldn't trade nothing for my roots and my daddy drug me to the hospitals and as a young guy 21, 22 years old, when I got my minister's license, man, I was already a seasoned person to go to the hospitals because my daddy had taught me and took me along and I could function in a church setting because of what I knew how to do my first wedding at 21. Because my dad helped me.
Speaker 2:So there's a good side to being a PK and the downside, but the good side to me has outweighed the bad. I feel like I was spared from what younger pastors have to learn on the go. I knew going into it okay, this is what we got to deal with, Because the rest of it could have killed me, you know.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And then, to be honest with you, I don't think if I were as old as I was and had been around humanity and the capacity that I had been previously not having been like, I was raised in church till I was 13 and then I didn't come back again until I was 30. So around that age. So really my perception or my perception of church was very different when I came back than it was when I left it. Anyway, I'm gonna spare you some of those stories, so, but if I had not been, as I would say, versed with people, as I have been, at the age of 30, then I was at the age of 21, 22 and haven't been in law enforcement and dealt with some of the worst of humanity has to offer, I don't know that I would still be pastoring today, because it'll crush you.
Speaker 3:Everyone thinks that pastors have it made and that you know your phone doesn't ring at two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 2:Or we just work Sundays. Yeah, we just work Sundays, one day a week.
Speaker 3:In fact, one of my greatest concerns was I got to preach every Sunday. You know when I'm like, yeah, I'm taking over, but man preaching can sometimes be interesting when God you know you don't feel like you've got what God wants you to speak, but that's the easy part. That's like what, 5%, 10% of what you do on during?
Speaker 2:the weekly basis. The worst thing that is when you do have what God wants you to say and you don't want to say it. That's the other side of that thing, yeah that's right. Absolutely that's more painful.
Speaker 3:And I've told people. We shared this in India, which is something we haven't talked about our India trip. We just got back from India there's our sixth trip there and we did a pastors conference, pretty much just kind of a like a two hour thing, where we just kind of shared some, some basics and things of leadership when it comes to pastor in it and I told them I've, I've been in law enforcement for 18 years. I've been shot at, I've had to fight some of the baddest people you'll ever meet. I've had to put some of the worst criminals and murders and jail Like I've dealt with all that. But I don't think I've ever been as hurt as I have been being a pastor and dealing with we'd quote, unquote church people. It is, it is rough.
Speaker 1:They don't see the investment behind the scenes of the prayer, the conversations, all that kind of stuff and but it's, yeah, it's a lot, a lot of pastoring.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't get any easier as your church gets bigger. Everybody says, oh, it gets easy. No, no, no, no. Actually it gets more and more complex. You know, 100 people is a lot easier to take care of than 200 or 300 or whatever. It's not easier because you have more people, more staff. The headaches just change. There's still headaches that just change.
Speaker 1:So I need to change my growth plan. Dumb it down a little bit, I'm just kidding. Oh hey, we got a couple more questions that we just want to get some wisdom for you while you're here, and one of me is what book have you read that's made some of the biggest impacts in your leadership?
Speaker 2:Glad you asked. The most recent one is the shepherd's look at 23rd Psalm. That book is mess me up because this guy's a shepherd, that was a shepherd by career and he wrote a book explaining the 23rd Psalm. How was shepherd loves on his sheep and God's? Oh man, this mess me up. But before that, two books that are I've really loved. One was after this by Kevin Wallace, and the other one was the circle maker by Mark Batterson.
Speaker 2:The circle maker man that that changed my life because he talked about praying circles around your dreams. And that book just inspired me to start dreaming again and to start believing God for bigger, better, and it didn't have to be the way I'd seen it before. Those, those couple of books, have just been life altering for me, bud.
Speaker 3:Awesome. What would be the biggest piece of advice if you could go back and give to your younger self? What would be that biggest piece of advice you would give?
Speaker 2:Hmm, if I could give a piece of advice myself, it would have been pay closer attention in Bible college so that I could learn more.
Speaker 2:But if, if anything, I would have told my younger self to have less fear about moving forward when I knew I had a mandate from God, when God had said this is what I want you to do, walk in it. This most recent church plant or church revitalization in Mullins, I was scared to death. I wrestle with it for a long time because it represents a financial investment, represents time, money, effort. I mean all of it and I really wrestle with this thing. If I could go back and tell my younger self look, if you hear God say, do it and just jump, because there's nothing like finding out, he's the parachute.
Speaker 2:You know that he's got you if you'll just be obedient. And for me, I should have told my younger self that a long time ago and said you know what, just jump and the Lord's got you. I'll tell this quick testimony and I think it's important for the conversation. When we open this hope center, this it cost $190,000, 194 to be exact. We had 15 of it in my church is $237,000 in debt for our buildings that we have there's four buildings on our property and all the revitalizations, the remodels and stuff we've done, we've been 12 years in debt, $200,000 in debt. So when I went to my council and said, hey, I feel like God has spoke to me and said we need to do this hope center, but we're going to have to borrow the money because we don't have it, they looked at me like I had six eyes and two heads. It was a nightmare.
Speaker 2:We went out and visited a potential property and I walked into what was just an absolute dump of a building and there was a whiteboard on the wall and it said the words what are you waiting for? And I tried to wipe it away. It was dry raceboard and it wouldn't come off. And so I said God, I hear you. So I took that whiteboard and I pulled it off the wall and it's in my office now, old, beat up, raggedy whiteboard. But it says what are you waiting for? My board and I. They said all right, pastor, you haven't let us wrong yet. We're going to trust you, let's do it. We borrowed the money and man here. We are still $237,000 in debt for our building, but our hope center debts paid down to $34,000 and 11 months.
Speaker 1:So yeah, God is really showed up.
Speaker 2:We took a leap and, man, look what God's done. So if the Lord will keep blessing like he is, we hope to have it gone by the end of the year, paid for or paid in full.
Speaker 1:So still looking for donors. If y'all know anybody's got a rich uncle, hallelujah, you know pastor, it goes back to what you're saying in a previous episode about trusting God. Yes, sir. Us as pastors, leaders, even those who are watching, that are just. They just follow the Lord. You know, Christians, If we could learn to distrust God with every aspect of our life, man, we would be so ahead in life and what God's calling us to do.
Speaker 2:What scares us is the silence when God says something and but doesn't back it up with how it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, the explanation that's not there is what bothers us, because we're so used to having. We're an information laden society. We've got so much information about everything we do. Okay, well, you want to go on blood pressure medication? Here's the side effects. Here's what you can expect. You need to, you know, get your driver's license? Well, here's what you can expect. Yeah. Then when God says I said, do it, what happens to us is we let what we see make us forget what God said. And so the easier principle for us to remember God says it. The details will come, but he said we walk by faith and not by sight, and sometimes that's a step by step by step. And he said this. And she said your word is a lamp into my feet and a light into my path, meaning I don't think that's just the Bible.
Speaker 2:I think that's the prophetic word, the spoken word of God that comes to us, where we just step by step Sometimes it's step by step, sometimes it's inch by inch. Yeah, the key is obedience.
Speaker 3:That's right, amen. And the last question that we have for you is what is the most used app on your phone?
Speaker 1:Oh, I, know this, I know this I'm going to tell you right now what it is. The Bible app Nope, the Bible app. The Bible app.
Speaker 3:I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:No, I can't stand staring at the screen, man. My eyes are too bad. My most used app is my text messenger.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I am nonstop. You know, anybody sees me, I'm just all the time texting. I took social media off my phone a couple weeks ago because or a couple days ago, actually this past week because I knew I needed to go into a season where my attention was a little more focused. I mean last week's eight weeks of grad school really needed dial in and I needed to be able to focus, and so so now it's definitely the text message.
Speaker 1:I mean I love it when that little blue thing goes off, and I know somebody's listening and I wish now I mean he's not going to be able to set my free request.
Speaker 2:Man, I'm sorry, whatever man, I got it on my computer because we good, awesome, awesome.
Speaker 3:Hey, well, listen, pastor. Seriously, it's been an honor and a privilege having you on. Like I love your heart, I know you're a man of God and you're your man after God's own heart. Yeah, just see little David sitting over there, right, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But we absolutely enjoyed having you and so, as what we do actually we didn't do it last episode I'm like man, we've gotten rusty, We've gotten bad, but actually this is the Bishop's scripture for the conference and we've been doing this since our first episode is we read a number 624 through 26. We read that to the people because we want to bless them and leave them with a blessing. So, pastor Seft, if you don't, mind just blessing the people Absolutely.
Speaker 1:This is a priestly blessing. It's number six and it says then the Lord said the Moses, tell Aaron and son. He reads this prayer to him. He says may the Lord bless you and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you his favor and give you his peace. Thank you so much for listening and watching. We're so grateful for you. Share it with a friend. We'll see you right here next time on Pastor to Pastor See you next time.
Speaker 3:See you next time, thank you.